Case Study Interviews and Capturing Data with Jocelyn Montemarano

As a business owner, your success hinges on attracting and retaining ideal customers. And I've got a secret for you today. Lean in, friend....

Case studies are your secret weapon in this quest. They showcase real results, build trust, and help potential clients see themselves in your success stories.  

Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just starting out, this episode on case study interviews offers valuable insights on gathering client data, conducting engaging interviews, and leveraging case studies to overcome objections and attract ideal clients. Guest expert Jocelyn Montemarano shares her expertise on integrating case studies into your business process and maximizing their impact across various marketing channels. 

Tune in for actionable advice to elevate your marketing strategy and connect with your target audience through the art of storytelling.

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EPISODE 132.

Read the show notes and view the full transcript here: https://erinollila.com/case-study-interviews-and-capturing-data-with-jocelyn-montemarano/

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Learn more about your host, Erin Ollila
Erin Ollila believes in the power of words and how a message can inform – and even transform – its intended audience. She graduated from Fairfield University with an M.F.A. in Creative Writing, and went on to co-found Spry, an award-winning online literary journal.

When Erin’s not helping her clients understand their website data or improve their website copy, you can catch her hosting the Talk Copy to Me podcast and guesting on shows such as Profit is a Choice, The Driven Woman Entrepreneur, Go Pitch Yourself, and Counsel Cast.

Stay in touch with Erin Ollila, SEO website copywriter:
• Learn more about Erin’s VIP intensive options if you’d like to learn more about how you can hire her to help you with your marketing efforts
• Reach out her on Instagram, Threads, and LinkedIn.

Transcript

0:00

Hello, Jocelyn.. Why case studies? Like why did that become important to your business and then again to your client's business? Yeah. So in working with my clients at all ranges for the past decade, really, in any format that I've ever worked with, with any size business that I've ever worked with, consistently case study interviews have always been the highest converting for my clients. And I saw the power of them when I started to see the back end of my clients onboarding forms and people would start to mention the names of specific case study interviews that they had watched and they're like, "I'm just like Kristen"."I'm just like Sydney. This is why I'm joining because So and so story is just like where I am right now.". And so it became very evident that case studies really helped people to, see, to believe what is possible for them., so to me it was so obvious that any business, any size, no matter what marketing channels you're currently on should be using case studies because that's how you're going to get. More people just like your best fit clients that are getting all these results. They're going to be the ones like attracting new people just like them into your offer. I'm glad we started here because you know a lot of the times with my Clients too. I'll hear a lot even if they might not reference case studies specifically, but they'll say, you know one client I had mentioned that they really were Attracted to working with me after they read like this services page or whatever and it's hard for them to articulate that What's happening is that , the client of theirs is putting themselves in the shoes of the previous client, right? So, , When we start to think about how we can amplify that, let's say, in our business, maybe they have great web copy, maybe they're doing a good job of creating content for social media, , but what they want is more of the right fit clients, it, I actually am kind of rather surprised how often case studies are neglected to come into the conversation because they are the precise. way to get potential clients to consider being future clients, yeah. I think people think that case studies are reserved for when it has to be like this big sexy thing and so I think there's a little bit of a mindset. gap for people where they just believe, Oh, I'm not at the point yet to do case study interviews. But if you've gotten a client a results, whether that's the full offer promise or even just laddering up to the offer promise, those stories are worth telling so that people can see what you're doing inside of your offer, what they can expect inside of your offer and the types of people who are getting results inside of your offer that they can really connect with and see themselves being. I think one of the bones that I always have to pick with case studies is that people always just see them as, like, the traditional problem solution story. Like, here's the problem the client had and here's the solution I gave them. And very often they do that because a traditional, especially a corporate or a SAS model of a case study is images very often, or videos of the client experience. And It's truly that, like a column or a row that says problem, and then one that says like solution.. It's the cheap and easy way to, , showcase something for those businesses. But, you know, personal brands, small businesses don't have the same opportunity as like a, a SaaS company to have those just two tiny columns to be able to show, showcase something. The, the showcase is within the story. And I like that you mentioned like there's that like, you know, larger solution or larger end point. As well as a ladder, because I think to add to what you're saying, another reason why case studies get neglected is because Individuals, like service providers, just as an example, don't think that they have the results to ask the clients for a case study. And I can use myself as an example, as a website copywriter, what is my job? I write copy for websites. What is the big win here, right? Like some sales copywriters that I'm friends with, they get really fun stats. They're stats that are like, I made someone 700 million in $12, right? Because they can measure very, a very, , clear set of data in a very defined period of time. Well, as a website copywriter, I have a ton of experience in SEO, but in order to get SEO data, it might take a year to measure that data. However. What I have found from doing my own interviews and case studies with my clients is, , one of my clients got found on Google the day after the site launched for one of their service based keywords. That is so rare, don't expect that anyone, but that was so fun to hear that like a client filled out their,, intake form for a discovery call and it says, How did you hear from me? Will I search this term? And they found the client, right? Another client could talk about, like, what I'm just thinking of things I've heard, like, how it actually gave them the confidence to start doing, like, their elevator pitch, or start introducing themselves, because they had the words there for them. So those, I think, in some ways, are more important. Then just having like a statistic or a number. Not that I want to disqualify those. That's, you know, that type of case study or testimonial or stat, so important. But I, I really want to set the stage here to think of ordinary wins, , or experiences as reason to create a case study. Like your clients talking about your process. I think you'd mentioned that \ will make your future leads able to say, Oh, they have a clear defined process. Oh, wow. That like, it's a really good experience. I'm going to be so supported. Whatever the story is that you're creating, that is just as important for conversions. I would say then just having some numbers. I just want to highlight something cause I think you touched on something really important here too, is like really getting clear on. what the results look like. And if you have something that is either longer term or intangible, because I think a lot of people think to like, this is only for B2B. It's only for the business coaches that can say, I helped this client make a million dollars, right? And no, majority of my clients are actually B2C that I've supported with case studies. There are people talking about their sex lives and marriage issues and how they became a better parent and. that, that, you know, don't have that tangible metric that you can always track. And their case studies are literally still the most valuable thing because it's about the transformation, not just a quick win. And I think that's Something we get wrong a little bit in the coaching industries. We, we do tend to focus on the result. How fast can we get a million dollars in 30 days? Like, right? Like there is a lot of emphasis on like quick, but when it comes to case studies, to your point, there is really a need to articulate the long term transformation, the long lasting transformation. That's what I want to say. There's something that happens when you have. really good website copy. In addition to getting more SEO traffic, there's a whole transformation that changes the way somebody can show up in their business. There's a whole transformation that happens when you stop fighting with your partner every single week and you feel like you can actually resolve conflict with a conversation, right? So that's, I would even say that's a bigger transformation than just the website copy. Not to downplay my work, but I think anyone can understand in a relationship how vital those things are. And, to your point, People aren't right. They're not interviewing their clients about these things. They're not writing about them. And I think that is, , It's sad to me because I think isn't there's no better way to really showcase the importance of your work Than to allow your clients or your customers to do that for you, so let's kind of transition into like the how we you know, we talked about case studies as being important and , I agree. I think they're slow burns with a lasting effect. How does someone get to the point to, like, start this process?, what is your advice for someone who's listening who's like, Okay, so what do I do? Like, how do I know who the clients are? What's the process? How Should I Set Up the Actual Interviews? Yeah, I mean so the very first piece of your case study strategy is putting together Three types of forms that actually help track your entire client experience So, you know the types of results people are getting because the number one issue I see with people and I experienced this with myself when I started my video podcast production company in was I was like, there are so many different goals and results and things that clients can do. And, you know, somebody with a small audience is going to be totally different than somebody coming in with a large audience. Some people want more sales. Some people want more speaking gigs, like how could I possibly track or like, you know, measure like these results, but you have to have a system. for actually collecting client data so you can see the types of people and the different types of results that they're getting. So I always have my clients use three different types of forms. The first is the onboarding form and the key purpose of that is to establish when clients sign up for your work. really what their starting point is, what their current situation is or what their current circumstances. And that is like actually one of the most important parts of a successful case study, because Every potential client's objection is like, they're somehow different than your most successful clients. They're like, well, that client who made a million dollars in 30 days must have had a large audience. You know, they must have not had a sales slump for four months, right? Like they have all of these thoughts. So really understanding the starting point of where your clients are coming into your offer with is a huge piece at connecting that to your potential clients. So that's looking at some of the demographic data. Like if you're a business owner, for example, you might ask about their revenue level. If that's something that's important, you might ask about their audience size. So you can get a sense, does this person have 500, 000 people in their audience or only 500, you know, so those types of things also like their psychographics around, you know, what they currently believe, what they currently feel, what they really want at that starting point is super important. The second form I have is a progress tracking form or a progress check in form. So again, depending on if your offer is very tangible, like making email sales or if it's something a little less tangible, like fighting with your partner, there needs to be some type of tracker or like reflection that can really capture where they are throughout the journey of working with you, whether that's in an intensive, whether that's a group program, a course, a membership, a service, something that can check in with your partner. Either very tangibly, what sales have you made this month? Or less tangibly, on a scale of one to five, how do you feel like you're able to navigate partner, your conflict with your partner this week, right? You know, something to really kind of gauge their process or progress and capture how they're feeling throughout the journey. So you can get that full story when you do go to do the case study interview. And then that final form is really that full case study when they've achieved the offer promise. Now being like, okay, you've achieved the offer promise. What was that end final result? What's happening in your life or your business as a result of achieving that result, the kind of like bigger transformation that happens like, okay, results. I got the website copy, but the transformation, I'm showing up so differently now because I'm confident that anybody I send to my website is going to view me as an expert and they're going to convert, right? So whole different kind of conversation there. So those three forms really help you be able to see the different types of people in your offer, the different types of results that they're getting, and the journey, the sticking points, the challenges and the wins that they're having along the way so that you can best gauge, okay, who do I invite into this case study interview? And how can I tell that full case study without needing to, Hey client, can you remember what you were feeling a year ago when you first started to work with me? Because you could actually pull that up and say, Hey, I noticed when you first started working with me, you mentioned you were experiencing X, Y, Z. Can you bring me back to what that felt like?? What I often hear from my clients when we voice of customer research, serving their audience, , case study creation, is, one, that they don't know who to reach out to. You know, they might be able to give me a list and some identifiers about what Who the clients are, you know, like what graphic, , grouping they may fall into within the type of personas that they have. But the question is generally like, I don't know who will give you the best case study., and I think that by, including this into your business process. I mean, there's actually many reasons why it's important, but, but for this specific reason, like you mentioned, when you have that data, but you know the story before you speak to the person. So it's more, , pulling the story out of them than it is, , being a detective and trying to, like, interrogate and investigate, which, one, makes it So much more enjoyable for the person that you're , talking to because they're, you know, I think anyone can understand that feeling interrogated Like you have to put the right answer out and you don't know exactly what to say Versus feeling prepared and like it's like a conversation A reflection let's say are two different Experiences, right? Like, the way that your client comes to you and the way that they present themselves is going to be vastly different whether they're being reflective or interrogated. But two, it also kind of allows you to mold the conversation in a way that you want to mold the conversation. And I think that's so forgotten about. Like, no one even thinks to themselves, like, they, you know, they worry about who to ask. They worry about what, what the end result, will, will this actually be a good case study? When the answers are actually already in front of them. And sure, they may have surprises, right? Like, they may end up having that client say something that they didn't expect to hear. Or, you know, like, something that was very complimentary. that they didn't necessarily like go there searching for, but they're going to know that the, the results that they want are actually going to be given to them once they get to the interview. And I, you know, then you don't have to spend a ton of money hiring service providers like us to interview all of your clients because you have the data that you need on, you know, the right clients to do the interviews for. So I want to talk about interviews for a second because, you know, I will say most of the people I talk to don't have these processes set up already. I absolutely agree. I always talk about this when in my testimonials course is like building it into the process is going to make it easier for everyone. It's going to make it natural. So if you don't have those forms in your business, set them up. Set up the touch points throughout the process of working with you. Set up the onboarding and the offboarding., but. What happens is while you're gathering and collecting this information, it doesn't give you enough to really tell a, , create a captivating case study. What needs to happen is an actual interview. And I think that scares a lot of people, especially like the DIYers. And, you know, I know a lot of people listening. They aren't necessarily DIYers, they might want to hire this out, but I think the interview is still scary. It feels like a, what will they say? You know, like, will they, again, remember our work together, you know, is this going to be worth it? So what is the interview process like once they've collected the data that you're suggesting? So what I have my clients in my case study sprint do is they prepare the client. So when you log on for an interview just like this before actually hitting record, They go over a few of the key details and some of the questions that they're going to be going over with the client. Now the client likely will know some of this because it's going to be similar to the case study form that they filled out. It's going to follow a lot of those questions, but the interviewer's job is really to remind them of those key points. I'm going to ask you about, you know, your results and achieving the offer promise. And I would love for you to mention, You know, the stat that you shared or, you know, how you were feeling in this situation that you mentioned, you know, those specific details. So you can really like prompt the client to give you the type of answer that you're looking for. And you have to remember the client wants to do that. Like they are coming onto a case study interview for two reasons. They want to return the favor of what you helped them achieve and they know that it's going to help other people who are, you know, on the fence, deciding to work with them, experience the transformation that they did. So they really want to say the right thing. Like they really do care and they really do try. So that initial tee up is really important. And then having the questions and knowing kind of the order you're going in, the structure. That's something I provide my clients is I actually give Break out the interview into different sections and give them the specific questions to ask so that they know, okay, this is kind of what flow is going to make sense. This is kind of how this one question is going to lead into the next question so that it's all logical for both the client and the person either watching or listening to the interview., and then one of the most important things, I think. that I noticed most beginner interviewers, they always jump like from question to the next question, but you want to make it feel like you're just having a conversation with this person., yes, the questions should be guiding you. You should have an outline of what those questions are, what you want to ask them. So you're not just like off the cuff, coming off up with things. But if a client says something really interesting, Or if they say something a little confusing, that's, that's missing some context. Your job is also to follow up on that. Oh my gosh. Wait. You haven't mentioned that to me. Tell me more. Right. And like dig into something that's like, Oh my God, everybody would love to hear this or vice versa. They may like say something, you know, like they might mention one of your branded frameworks or concepts inside of like a group coaching program. Right. And that might be verbiage you use with your clients, but you know, everybody might not know. So it's your job to say, okay, Let me just pause right here for people listening. If you don't know what the leveraged ecosystem is, which is like one of my processes, here's what that is. That's how she used it, you know, in her business. So that would be something you want to make sure that you have the questions outlined. So you know where the conversation is going and you can keep it on track, but you want to listen like you would in a normal conversation with somebody and just be human. Like this is your opportunity to connect with people. You should be doing it as something scary. Like, this is what's going to make you the best business owner you can be is getting to know your clients so, so, so well that, you know, what they're thinking, you know, what they're feeling at every stage, and you can create new concepts, new frameworks, additional support, whatever it might be to guide them. So really view it as that rather than like a scary interview where, you know, I'm the host on, you know, some TV show or something, 60 minutes, right? Like it's not that, it's not that serious. It's a conversation with somebody you've helped. I just want to echo and agree with what you're saying about making it a conversation Because what I see so often in so many different types of marketing Things, , website, social copy, is the lack of transitions, and that's really kind of like what breaks the effectiveness. So, you know, when you mention, here's the list of interviewing questions, and then some of your clients kind of like just jump from one to another and don't really know, like, how to like build in those transitions, you know, Just reframing it as this is a conversation and in conversations there are follow up questions that may not be written down, right, or statements., and that helps build those transitions and develop a story versus it being like a, you know, like a standardized test where there's only certain options that they can choose, , from the questions that are being asked. So for the DIY interviewers, that is something that you definitely want to prep for and , to work through, like that, interviewing is truly a skill and there's so many different ways to approach interviewing, you know, like the conversations I have on my podcast technically are interviews, I do ask questions of my guests. But I much prefer to make them conversational. Even in this as an example, I've said, Oh, I want to echo that, or I want to add to that, or here's the question. Whereas when I'm writing an article , and I interview a subject matter expert, like I'm quite literally asking them a question, waiting for their answer, potentially , following up with clarifying questions, , Additional questions that weren't there already because they've taught me something new or just the rest of the questions I've had.. And I think also knowing the way that you want to approach it based on the client is important as well, you may, if you're in a service based business,, one on one working with clients, like a coach, I think you said that as an example, you're, you've already developed a really good rapport with that person. It definitely needs to be more conversational. Again, maybe if you aren't like a tech company, you can take a little bit more of that like strict interview approach. Doesn't mean you can keep the story from it, doesn't mean that you shouldn't follow through, but I think it's kind of developing your interview persona if you are doing a DIY as well. Do you think that there is a benefit of hiring a like a case study writer or a copywriter to do the interviewing for you, or it's better, , based on seeing all of these case studies your clients are creating, to do the interviews yourself. okay, I love this question cause there's some nuance here and I think there's an appropriate time for both and it's understanding what you want your case studies to do for you. I'm using case studies in my case study sprint with my clients. I'm using case studies as marketing content. So a lot of people who have copywriters or things like that, do case study interviews for them. They're using those case study interviews to inform website copy or to inform email copy, , or just overall messaging. Like who are your clients? Like, who are you getting results for that type of thing? I'm using it for the perspective of yes, of course, all of those things. But when my clients can actually interview their clients, I can now create a whole suite of marketing assets for them. So they get the whole full length case study interview. They get a sales page version of that with the client, you know, kind of talking about those highlights. They get vertical video clips that they can put out on their social media channel. They get the description of that case study that they can use, you know, on YouTube or the podcast or the blog or whatever it might be. They get the email blast, right? So that creates a whole suite of assets that you're not going to be able to get if somebody else is doing the interview for you. But if you have a very specific goal of, I really need very specific detail for this specific project and I need like somebody to come in with that expertise and get those questions, of course, that's, you know, there's a time and place for that and there's a time and place for, I need to blast my case studies everywhere so people can really see what my work is all about. They can overcome objections and see what's possible for themselves. So that's why I've kind of taken the approach of, you know, my clients are the ones doing the interview because we can leverage it a little bit more. Yeah, and I agree. I actually,, I think that there are reasons why you'd want someone to do the interviews for you and reasons why you'd want to do it yourself., I've found when doing the interviews for my client, it, the two times it works best for me to take the reins are when we're surveying clients. I don't know if developing new services is the right approach, but like, maybe if I'm having a client come to me for a rebrand because they are making slight,, , changes to their actual business. Like, how do they, , sell to clients? How do they do their process with clients or customers and things like that? Why that works well is I am able to set the stage that our conversation is completely confidential and I can also find out the things that weren't working so well or the things that needed improvement and if I Can build the trust as the outside party, then those individuals will be very honest. And I've always, every single interview that I've done in this manner, got very good information that was unexpected or,, helpful in, in the way that we crafted the messaging or the, the, the, The business was able to adjust their offerings., so I think that works really well when you need the, which is slightly different from what we're saying here, though, as a case study, can those conversations be turned into case studies? Yes, very often we would get like video testimonials we were able to use from those same conversations. And the, , the people I was interviewing would approve them, you know, before I shared that data with my client. So again, the trust isn't broken at this point., but it's slightly different. And the other time it works really well is when you want to interview groups of people. So for example, in a membership, once I did an interview where it was like, I don't remember how many people, but maybe five or six came to like a call and we talked about like, , the different ways that they use the membership and what, you know, how it worked for them because we, We knew that we were going to get, , different personas, like that the clients used for their marketing and how they talk to these different groups within this larger conversation. And I think that unless you are a true interviewer, it is very hard to manage a group interview, so, and still get the information you need, but you can get some really valuable insights. But to your point, A DIY interview, like, especially when there is a relationship between the, the, the person who's,, doing the interview and their client, can be so much more personalized, right? Can feel so much more authentic, , and can go deeper because there's, Nobody needs to explain anything. You know, once I worked with a very specific type of artist, and when I did the interviews of her clients, I had to ask them specific questions because I was not familiar with why they would say that, or what some of the phrases meant. And Not that that was a problem in that instance, but I would say it's so much easier when you are the practitioner and you, you don't need to explain things like that. Like the verbiage that you're using and all of these, , just regular, like, language for that industry or the type of client is just normal and, So, I do think, , you know, there is a reason why you would want to hire it out, and there's a reason why you want to do it yourself. And then if this is just super new to you, or you don't have a budget, like, the DIY approach doesn't hold you back from doing it., you can still create that great content by just throwing yourself in and working through this process. I do think there is, , an importance to it because Like, especially what you just mentioned on the DIY. Like, if you are not at the point where you could invest in, you know, the type of support to come up with a strategy and, you know, to have these assets edited for you and things like that, it is important to get started because again, like, even if they haven't achieved, you know, your end offer promise, like showing that ladder and, you know, doing even just like a 15 minute interview , but really just talking about. Okay. They were able to achieve this one specific results. Like I would have been in such a better position if I had done that a lot earlier in my business, because I would have captured smaller wins that would have pulled more people in sooner on the way to working up to bigger case studies where I'm like, okay, I have the full transformation. This would be a really great thing. You know, this is the story I want to tell, but. If we just wait like all the way until that moment, you're going to have nothing. And I say this a lot. The worst case study is going to be better than any other piece of content you create because it's coming from somebody else who is saying the types of results you got. So even if it's like literally the worst thing, Erin and I wouldn't ask any of those questions or recommend those. It's still going to be a lot better than just that. Not having any or just doing, you know, your own solo content. If it's in video form, just using that as an example, just being able to see another person talk to you as the business owner or as the service provider gives those leads , the proof of the social proof, right? You know, I think because I care so much about social proof and testimonials and case studies, I get so stuck. online business world when I just see the fact that people make them up? Like, it should be against the rules. I mean, it is against the rules., right? But it just, to me, it's so sad because then there's this general mistrust of is this even true or not? But when you have a video conversation of two individuals, one being like, you know, the service provider or business owner and the other one Like, it doesn't matter what they say. There's two people and the proof is in the pudding right there. The proof is in the video. Like, you can see that they had a relationship and again, like, you know, we're saying even if it's not the best content, it is still content. Other people don't have. So I agree. Now, I think you are in a really interesting position because you teach this to clients and you own a podcast production company where you're seeing all of their case studies. So having that insight, being the voyeur of all of these case studies, what are some of the things that you see that are missing from case studies that people do? gosh, so many things. So I think, I think the number one biggest thing that people don't realize is your case studies are what's going to overcome every objection that your potential client has. So when you're creating your case study, I want you to actually think about what objection Does this client's experience help other potential clients overcome? so like an example of this is like I have an email coach and When I joined her program like I was like, oh like, you know, I shouldn't join her program. I have a small email list It's under 200 people Well, guess what? She had four dozen emails being like, Jenny has made, you know, 25 percent of her income with email with a list of 102 people. Billy has, you know, made 25, 000 with a list of 250 people. And I was like, Whoa, look at all these people just like me. Right. So I want you to start thinking about like, what objection does this client's experience. Help overcome for potential clients that is missing. And it's the most important part of case studies like that again, goes back to what I mentioned earlier in this about the starting circumstance, because every client, like the, The single biggest objection they have is like, this won't work for me because I'm different from those successful clients because of X, Y, Z. My email list is smaller. My revenue isn't as big. My husband and I have been fighting for five years and they must have only been fighting for six months, right? Like what they always think. They're the only ones that , are going to be different. And that's the fear we want to overcome. So if you can really look at. Where did this client start? What objections, like, might they have had or what objections are kind of hidden in their starting circumstance that would really resonate and connect with other people? That's like the number one thing I see missing and the number one most important thing of a high converting case study. And then the other thing is including those details. Again, you have to be the interviewer and making sure you're asking your client, like my email coach needs to ask me on the interview, like, well, how big was your list? Right? Like what was your revenue at? Were you in a sales slump before? You know, like, How many email sales were you averaging a month? Those types of questions that really pull out like, okay, she, she had no email sales. She had a small list. Like she hadn't had a sale in four months. She joined this program and still made it work. That's possible for me too. So you really need to kind of think about what those, what those like data points, again, whether they're very tangible B2B or whether they're very nuanced. How often were you fighting with your partner?, what did those fights feel like? What would happen after a fight? What had you tried before to not fight or to resolve conflict in a way that didn't feel like you were both hurting each other? So again, either side, whether you have a very tangible offer or something a little more tangible, Intangible and nuanced. You need to really think, what are those objections that they have? And then what are those kind of like data points or those key points that I really need to pull out so people can see, Oh, they started exactly where I am. And I think this is where it's really important to point out, again, like I mentioned before, how, , intricate interviewing can be and delicate it can be. You know, I think earlier, I don't know exactly how I phrased it, but I mentioned, like, you're kind of creating the story, right? Like, you know what story you want to tell. And I, not that that is wrong, but to be a little bit more clear, because I think I understand that as a writer with way too, Industry, , is. When you are interviewing, you are the interviewer. You are not the storyteller. Right, like those are two very different positions. You can, pre interview, you can try to develop a story, or develop an outline of what you would like that future story to be. But as an example, when a person writes a book, , an author or a memoirist will sit down with an outline of what they hope to share. And I would say about 98 percent of the time that outline never goes the way that they wrote it, ever. Because stories unfold, edits happen, and messages gets, get massaged. So I would say just reflecting on everything you mentioned there, You have to go into the interview, maybe with a hope of what you'd like the story to be, but you should never be molding your interview to get that story from your clients. You should only be interviewing to uncover, and then you can take the interview, the end result, the actual finished video, and edit in a way, obviously you really truly want to make sure you have your client's permission for this before you edit in a way that like misconstrues anything, you wouldn't want to do that, but you can edit it in a way to answer the story you want to tell, right? Like taking that video clip out to tell a piece of the story is fine when like the larger part of the story could be more of the uncovering and things. So I do want to reiterate that interviewing is a skill. If you've never done it before and you're just approaching it and I'm scaring you at this point, it just takes practice and doing to kind of become a good interviewer. But I would love for you to go into the interview if you are doing it yourself, being okay to let the story unfold and not try to direct or dictate what the story is with the way that you talk to your clients during the case study. I will add to that because this is so funny that you're bringing this up. I Was the client in a case study interview yesterday and Before we started recording, this person asked me, they were like, you know, I of course have some questions I'm going to ask you at, you know, I have your, your case study results form and things like that. And we've been working together. So, you know, they know me. And they were like, do you have anything in particular you think is important to share about your journey? So I was able to kind of, Both from my business owner case study expert perspective, but also just from my human side and what I really felt made the biggest impact on my life. I was able to share that., and so that helped shape and that's really important too, because you want to make sure that as the expert, you're understanding what's important to your clients. So if you're always dictating and you're not giving, like you're not prompting questions and leaving room for them to actually answer with what they think. You're not going to get the data in your interview too that'll help shape things. You want to hear like, Oh, I didn't realize. that my clients really cared about that. Like you should be having those moments of realization in the interview as well so that it feels like, okay, I know the large story, but I'm asking these open ended questions like, you know, what do you feel like was, you know, the biggest factor of your transformation? What helped you the most, you know, more open ended questions so that you can have those aha moments of like, I didn't realize people thought that that was that important. That's such like a, you know, a basic thing or whatever it might be. And then you uncover, Oh my God, that's like the heart of my work. I don't have any content that I talk about that. Now I could go create, you know, five additional pieces of content that really focus on that and attract more people that care about that because I obviously helped with that. So I love that you brought that up and making sure that like, You're guiding them through like the story of like, where did you start? What challenges did you have? What results did you get? What do you feel now? But like leaving enough open endedness that they can fill in what was most important and what was most meaningful. Yeah, because you'll, you'll determine while the interview is happening or later that there are like, , ties to certain things, you know, like strings that go from one thought to another that,, that's how the editing happens, right? Or that's how, like, the, the conversation adjusts to develop into something new., so I would say it's fine to go in with the hopes of a story. You know, one of my former website clients, he talked to me a lot about how he was always so impressed with the process. Because he had previously worked with a lot of artsy like service providers and it was always like, he didn't know what to expect from them, like what was going to happen next, what was the timeline, so what, one of his biggest takeaways was, was how like, I guess you could say, , it, he felt, cause he always knew exactly what was happening and what to expect from me. Now, that I didn't know until I had the conversation. And, you know, those weren't questions I think I would necessarily have gone to, or I would, wouldn't have highlighted, but those were some of the better takeaways., again, going into it, hoping that you'll get something is fine, and just,, allowing the conversation to take you where it needs to go is, is another thing. Before, before we end, you had mentioned that there are seven types of data points that, that people have to get from clients. So what are those data points? And then I, I know this is probably asking a lot, but like, how do those data points translate into how we can use those data points in our marketing? So the very first type of data that you want to collect is that demographic data, which I touched on. This often happens in, , like the onboarding form. You want to get to know like a little bit about like their starting point. Again, depending on your business, this might be revenue. It could be their age. It could be how many kids they have, right? You want to make it relevant to, you know, , what your offer is, but that type of demographic data. So you can see, okay, I really am attracting people who are at the hundred K mark in their business, or I'm helping people get results. that are under 100k. Wow. I didn't think I did that. You know, you have that context to be able to see what's possible yourself so that you can communicate that to other people and have that evidence. So the, , the email example I gave earlier, right? Like knowing what their list size is would be really important., knowing have they made email sales before or are they, you know, just getting started with using email marketing as a tool? Those types of questions would be really helpful. And those are often like multiple choice type questions, like which of the following best describes you. So it's really easy for your clients to give you that information. The second data point is psychographics. This is things like their desires, their fears, their beliefs. You really want to tap into what they're experiencing internally when they join, especially. And then on the flip side, after they experienced that, that offer promise or that result, what are they experiencing then? And those psychographics are going to give you that because again, that's going to really tell you what's important to people. When they're joining, what, what do they desire? What, what are they afraid of? Or things like that. And then on the flip side, what they feel like is important now that they've achieved this, what, you know, they're desiring now and, , how that's evolved and, and things like that. So psychographics is that second. The third one is experiences. So what are they currently experiencing when they join? This could be like symptoms. Challenges or behaviors. So, , like again, using a business example, email. I'm sending emails, but nobody's clicking and buying. Nobody's applying to work with me. Right. That would be like a symptom like, or a challenge. Like I'm sending all these emails. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. You know, something's not working., it could also be more like behavioral. So I had a mindful eating dietitian that I worked with on her case studies, and it was behaviors like I'm constantly thinking about food. I'm constantly obsessing about what I should be eating and it's taking up my mental capacity. So that's like, what are they currently experiencing often that, you know, leads them to work with you, which leads into point number four, which is one of the most important. Data points, I think, , in understanding why people are buying from you. Whatever you are selling is the trigger event. What caused them to purchase? So the easiest way to understand a trigger event is like thinking about the wedding industry. Once you get engaged, that's a trigger event. Now you're going to go shop for a dress. You're going to look for a wedding venue. You're going to hire the photographer. Trigger event. I got engaged. Like very easy to see that when it's in business, it's a lot harder to kind of tell. Like if you're a career coach or a mindful eating dietician, like people struggle with their relationship with food in their body for years before ever hiring a dietician. Right. So like what was the straw that broke the camel's back for lack of a better term that actually led them to say, This is enough. I can't take it anymore. I'm going to sign up to work. That'll give you a lot of insight into kind of like that moment and really kind of where they are when they decide to buy. The next data point is the results. So after they've worked with you or you know, in the process of working with you, what is that result? usually very correlated with the offer promise that they've experienced. So if you have an offer promise, like stop fighting with your partner every week or, you know, become a better parent or more present parent or whatever it might be, what actually was that and the details around that. I went from fighting with my partner every single week and we would blow up and go to bed angry to, Now we still have fights, of course, we're human, but it's more like once a month. And when we do fight, we never go to bed angry because we take a five minute break, come back, you know, and can have a conversation about the conflict and repair the situation. So highlighting that results, transformation is the next data point. So now that they've achieved that results, what else is unfolding in their life? Well, now that I'm not, you know, fighting with my partner every week and afraid that my marriage is going to fall apart or that I need to go look for a new apartment and break up, I'm actually spending more time with my kids. I'm actually was able to get promoted at work because I, you know, was able to show up differently and not always feel so stressed and drained and You know, I'm enjoying life more. I started pottery, like whatever it might be. It's kind of like all of those incredible things that come after the results. And then lastly, what I love to know as well is what components of your framework supported them the most. So what did they feel like was maybe the tool, the concept, Framework or process that moved the needle the most for them. I really like asking that type of question because I think a lot of times people think like I have to do like all of these things to experience the results. And usually it's like one or two things, like click it all into place. So achieving the result is a lot easier for people than they think it is. And I also really like asking that question because it highlights the What's different about this approach and this offer than the things that they're currently doing or might have already tried that haven't worked for them. So they can see, okay, this person, you know, already tried love languages or something, and that didn't work, right? So, you know, now they're using this tool. Oh, we don't have anything like that. I've never heard of that concept before. That sounds like the missing piece in my relationship type of thing. So those are. Those seven kind of data points that I'm always hoping to pull out Throughout the whole case study process in the forums and in the interviews as well You know, it's so funny because when you first started talking, I was like, Oh, she already talked about, like, you know, demographics and stuff. I'm like, well, we already had this as part of our conversation. But what a great way to kind of end this episode. Because it's such a review of, like, Do you need everything? You don't need everything. Do you want everything? Yeah, you do want every single one of those. And they all kind of play their own role, and you can use them in different ways. So I think that, like, just sharing the complete overview at the end, one, I would assume, gives people a lot of confidence when they're listening, because they're like, okay, I'm ready to do this. I'm going to step into this role, and this is what I need. And two, it makes it very clear. What you need to do in order to get an actual concrete case study that can, can really showcase what it was like to be your client or your customer. So thank you, Jocelyn, so much. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on thank you so much for letting me share all of my my case study fun this year now everyone go out and write a case study and report back to us before next week.