Crafting Your Brand's Voice: Building Powerful Messaging Pillars with Zoie Callihan

Ever found yourself tongue-tied when trying to explain what makes your business special? If so, you're not alone. In this episode of Talk Copy to Me, I chat with fellow copywriter and brand messaging strategist Zoie Callihan about brand messaging pillars and guides. 

We explore how these tools can improve everything in your marketing, help you connect with your audience in a way that feels genuine, and make your brand pop in a sea of — let's face it — sameness.

Whether you're flying solo or captaining a growing team, this episode is full of nuggets to improve your brand communication and make you stand out in a way that feels authentic and is easy to replicate over time. No jargon, no fluff – just actionable advice to make your brand shine.

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EPISODE 137.

Read the show notes and view the full transcript here:
https://erinollila.com/zoie-callihan-on-brand-messaging-pillars/
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Learn more about our guest expert, Zoie Callihan of Lexicon Copy Co.
Zoie Callihan is the messaging strategist and copywriter behind Lexicon Copy Co., an owner-operated full-service copywriting studio. She designs distinctive voices and writes clever, personality-rich copy for brands who step outside of the genre of their industry. Instead of focusing on a single platform (like a website), her studio crafts copy that appears throughout a brand’s entire customer journey — from the converting copy on a sales page, to the nurturing copy of a packaging insert, all the way down to the microcopy of their user experience.

When you're done listening to this episode, check out her website, and then find her on Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn.

Here's info on your host, Erin Ollila
Erin Ollila believes in the power of words and how a message can inform – and even transform – its intended audience. She graduated from Fairfield University with an M.F.A. in Creative Writing, and went on to co-found Spry, an award-winning online literary journal.

When Erin’s not helping her clients understand their website data or improve their website copy, you can catch her hosting the Talk Copy to Me podcast and guesting on shows such as Profit is a Choice, The Driven Woman Entrepreneur, Go Pitch Yourself, and Counsel Cast.

Stay in touch with Erin Ollila, SEO website copywriter:
• Learn more about Erin’s VIP intensive options if you’d like to learn more about how you can hire her to help you with your marketing efforts
• Reach out her on Instagram,

Transcript

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Let's start with a very quick overview. What is messaging strategy and why does having something like a brand messaging guide help small business owners? Messaging strategy is the thing that keeps you from being haphazard when you're selling to people, basically. We all know that like brands don't exist, right? They're just a very carefully crafted group hallucination. And that's why when everybody is saying strategy, strategy, strategy over and over again, it's because you want to be able to affect the way that your brand makes people feel. Having a messaging strategy allows you to have some form of control over that. It kind of starts with a foundation of what do we stand for and believe in and builds off of that so that you're not just putting on a front and hoping that it makes people feel some type of way, you know, that's coming from someplace that's real. The people that you really do well in serving will recognize that and it all comes together.\ what I always tell people is that your brand, your brand voice is living in somebody's head. somewhere. If you founded your business, it's yours. If you hired a copywriter who has a good sense of your business, it's living in their head., but a brand messaging, like a book or guide or Bible, whatever you want to call it, is where it actually gets put on paper. And once you're looking at it, then you can sort of tease and refine aspects, which you can't, if it's just a vague idea that someone kind of has a gut feeling for when they're writing.. I think we talk kind of around brand messaging, right? Like, but this is what it is. It's again, the way you make people feel., it's what people think of you, but it's just committing it to an actual guide so that you can be consistent. 100%. The like basis and thesis behind my entire business is that your brand needs to sound the same no matter where it shows up. So that's why my messaging guides, I actually require it for all of my customers, because if you're going to sound consistent, if you're going to have a consistent brand experience and a consistent brand personality everywhere you show up, you have to, To start there. And big businesses, brands that we grew up like resonating with, brands that we see now and don't give a second thought, Target, Old Navy, Coca Cola, McDonald's, they have mastered this and we don't even realize it. And that's because there is a very long PDF somewhere at McDonald's HQ that says this is how we sound. It's a foregone conclusion for big successful brands and it should be a foregone conclusion for all brands because even if you're itty bitty, you need to have a solid foundation to grow on. I'm so glad you said that, I want to talk about how you help small businesses with this, you said this is like the starting point for all of your clients, and I know that that's because it informs messaging., do your clients struggle with why they need to start there? Because I know a lot of the times when I talk about this or when I work with my clients, there's people hear copy or they're expecting copy, and they don't understand that the words are like the 1%., most of the time when I talk to people about why it's essential, I don't get pushback because it's a really, it's a simple explanation. We have to decide what your brand sounds like before we can write it in its voice. That's it. So I think the surprise that comes for people is in, I think they're picturing what they get from like a designer, for instance. That's more like a mood board and like five to six kind of evocative adjectives. And they're like, okay, sure. I'll pick five to six more adjectives with you. And Ooh, I get a tagline. You're fantastic. And then they get this document that's like, can sometimes be up to 70 pages long. Okay. With all of this meat and they're like, Ooh, I didn't realize that all of this was involved. So, like, not pushback, but more like a pleasant surprise inside, which is nice. The way that you described the differences between what they'll see maybe from a designer versus what they're getting in a true, like, messaging guide that's been worked on by a strategist or copywriter is key to this episode. That is what I was really found fascinating on your thread that you had posted. And if you can bear with me for 10 seconds, I'm actually going to read it. If you, if you hate this, I'll cut it, I promise. No, please go ahead., when we do messaging strategy, here's, in parentheses, almost everything I lovingly tuck into your brand character synopsis. And then here's like the bulleted point, everyone. Actionable defining values. Brand Manifesto, Mission and Vision Statements, Taglines and Slogans, Buyer Psychology, Brand Story, Elevator Pitch, Positioning Statement, Brand Perception, Brand Personality, Brand Tone Chart, Communication Guidelines, In Depth Content Pillars, and Use Tutorials. Okay, let's pause for a second and everyone take a deep breath. Now I read that as a fellow marketer and I'm like, wow, this is exciting. And I think that like consumers or like your leads, let's say, might read that and be excited and overwhelmed or even like listeners, right? Like, What are all of these things? And that is like the key and the heart of what I really want to talk to you about. My first question, all right, maybe, maybe I should state, this is like one part, like Erin's curiosity and I just want questions answered. isn't even actually gonna air. You just are like, what is Erin, everyone. This is for Erin., and then the second part though, is like, let's kind of talk about. Talk about why you make the choices or how you present it in a specific way. So my biggest question is your title. You call it the Brand Character Synopsis. Why? Tell me everything. Oh, let's, that's like a turducken of a question because A, from my own brand voice, even my deliverables have like, carry my brand experience into what I give to people. So my brand is very like literary themed. And so obviously there's going to be some kind of like cute character development. Tagline in there. I'm so glad that we're talking about this because it's very difficult for people to conceptualize how these different pieces play into brand voice. And I'm a book nerd and I love a metaphor and I love an analogy. So I always tell my clients that their, their business is not a business. It's A character, basically. It's some of that, that character can be inspired by you. But it is a character, meaning it was written by someone and has to be designed carefully. And I kind of break down the actual guide that I give them in terms of the things that go into creating a character. So like, For instance, when we're talking about their foundation, the foundational pieces like mission and vision, which I use because they're familiar terms, but my goodness, they're dry and people kind of like roll their eyes when they think about like, let's talk about our mission statement, like corporate flashbacks galore. But in my brand messaging guide, I call that their motivation section. So what is your character's motivation? for existing. So that's why it's a, it's a character synopsis because it touches all the different touch points in there, the, the backend of who their brand is as a persona, as a personality., but it also carries my brand voice and theme through and allows me to use that metaphor to kind of couch these different important unfamiliar topics and something that might be a little bit more familiar. And I think that's really important because brand Like your brand the Zoe's brand needs to come through in the work that you do with your clients Like that's the brand message everyone, right? So if she named her I'm just using brand messaging guide just so we can stay consistent throughout the episode but if she if you named your brand messaging guide like um A snack of your brand, like, that doesn't actually relate back, right? Exactly. look, my, my podcast is called Talk Copy to Me. I love puns. I love the, like, snappy, fun saying. So I get wanting to be creative. But this is the prime example of creativity meets branding meets clarity, right? No one hears brand character synopsis and feels confused so it's you using your own brand, your messaging to inform the way you work with your clients, the way you speak with them by injecting that light personality. You're not calling it like Zoe's trifecta of intelligentness, right? Like, this Hey, who told you about the trifecta? This is still about them. It's just making it. Be from you, So I guess maybe that's why it struck me so much. Also love the literary things, and when I read those bullet points, my question more was, Is this the order that you're presenting the things to your clients? And again, we started with the values and moving it all the way down to the use case. So is that like how your guide is laid out for people? Excellent question. So I actually pulled up, I panicked during tests, so I have like my brand guide up on a second screen so that I make sure that I get it in the proper order. But there is definitely a method to that particular madness., here are the thematic little chunks that I take clients through. First, we start with your motivation. So why, why does your business exist? Then we move on to, I call it your audience. So who do you serve? Then we move into setting. So what is the market that your business exists in? How do, what space, what section of that market are you claiming? How do you want to be seen by competitors in the market, by your client? Like, On the grand stage of businesses, what's your particular setting? And then after those foundational pieces are in place, only then do we get into their persona. So what do you sound like? How do you come across? How do you speak? How do you communicate? And the last thing that we figure out is their dialogue, which is their content pillars. So you have you started, you know, who you serve, you know, where you're at, you know, what you sound like, and then, you know, what you talk about. And it's important to do it in that order because those pieces build off of each other. For instance, like if you don't know where you're coming from, , you can't effectively serve people. If you don't know who you serve, then you don't know what section in the, the setting of all brands that you take up. And if you don't know those three things, there's no way that you should start deciding what you're going to sound like because otherwise you're just throwing things and hoping that they stick. All of that needs to be designed carefully and building off of each other. So a fun little self check that I built into brand messaging guides is that everybody's content pillars that I give to them will tie back to their core values or their defining values. I will have a content pillar. And at the bottom, I will say, this relates to your core value of doing XYZ just to make sure it's like my little redundancy check, just to make sure that these things are all aligned. Cause they should be. And if they're not, then I did it wrong. I think if you're hearing this and you have a guide yourself that's already created or maybe you used a template to self create a guide, that's something I think you should pay attention to is, is this guide, one, organized well? 2. Clear, like does each section feel like I understand what this actually means? And 3. I guess there's lots of points here. 3. Is it building upon itself so that way when the newer thing that you read feels stronger because you've understood the things that it was built upon, like it was built upon well? And finally, For when you're reading these, are you seeing examples of why this is set up like this and how you can use it in the future? Because I think those, the why and the how, are what is left out of subpar messaging guides. And when I hear you explain this, even when I read this, I think that was why I was so impressed.. I'm going to say something slightly negative. But I'm very unimpressed often when I see a lot of, like, competitor work or, like, and I say competitor meaning just the marketing feel. It doesn't have to be like a one on one website copywriter. It's not that their, like, end result is unimpressive. It's a lot of the times it's more of, like, the deliverables or the way that they work with their clients. Because Even if someone is completely like hiring it out for like a complete done for me project they still want to understand their marketing, right? So I think it's such a disservice. I see so often where. They might have a beautiful website or like their copy so strong, but they don't necessarily understand how that happened. And I don't think we need to teach our clients, you know, all of what we've learned in our education and experience. But I just want my clients to be able to. feel like they get why we're doing what we're doing or the choices that we're making. So the way that you one, originally posted it and now have just described, the chunks that they have and why they're all related to each other and how they build on each other is just so clear and I'm not trying to like be your new best friend. I pinky promise. This is not an episode where I'm just gonna talk about how, like, in love with you I am. But No, that's fine. Please, go ahead. Mm you will. Okay. We're good. We're fine. We got this., end episode, we'll just like love bomb each other for the rest of the time we have. Exactly. Exactly. Perfect. But I think it's real, I think this is like the key of where I want people to pay attention. Like, you don't need me or Zoe necessarily to do this for you. You just need something where your messaging is out of your head, and where like, the foundation is set and built upon. So, we'll stop the love bomb for a second and let's start talking about those actual sections. I do have a couple questions just based on like, what I think people might already know about a messaging guide. You, the first one is the values. Love that. I think values drive everything. I think they're so often. Dismissed or Guessed Upon? But like when I re I've only done my values once in my business. It was maybe like two ish, three years ago I had done some website updates. Realized I had never even done that part of my messaging guide and I was like, okay. I'm doing a disservice to myself. What do I value? That's because you're a marketer, so your own marketing comes last, famously so. get it., but, I will also say, though, I think I also did it because I didn't know what I valued. And I'm not trying to make myself look bad, I just think it's really easy to avoid the things where we have to, like, dive deep. And I think this is why when people work with people like us on things like brand messaging or, like, rebrands, it I hear all the time like, I feel like this is like a counseling appointment or like, this is like, this is like business coaching and it's, it's not that I'm, I'm not a mental health counselor. I am not Mm a business coach, but there's so much diving deep that needs to get done in order for those right words to get out there. I think that when I finally sat down to do my values, it was a really hard homework assignment and it took me a while. Cause I was like, what do I value? And then a, there, a lot of the things that I first came up with were very surface level. And then when I finally broke down to my values, the other thing that I found was that, and I actually wrote this on my own website, was that these are my biggest values, . But I am still a practitioner in these values, and like, I'm learning and growing as I'm doing them.. The reason I bring that up, though, is because you have the word actionable in this I think that maybe could make a big, huge difference to people who are trying to figure out their values and how to use them in brand messaging. Most people I think who are listening to your broadcast, certainly you and I are in business because we care about the people that we serve. And so defining our values is as much a soul searching experience as it is a business strategy. So that's why it's kind of weird and uncomfortable., But I think the space that we are used to hearing core values in is in a corporate setting. And those are kind of dry. They tend to be a word. They tend to like feel nice, but they're not guiding, they're just more ornamental. And that's why I think a lot of people tend to dismiss them because , they're not moving the needle in their business. They just seem ornamental. That's what they're used to hearing. So I make my, and that's why I call them defining values instead of core values, because they define how you are going to approach every aspect of your business, including and probably primarily your messaging, how you talk to people. For instance, I know that a lot of people's, defining value is authenticity, which is a sticky word that marketers both love and hate because it can mean everything or it can mean nothing. But when I write my defining values for people, I, I will include the word, but then I will define it for their business specifically. So how do you define Authenticity, what does it mean in practice for your business? So as a service based business, authenticity might mean that you are very candid with your clients about their business. For instance, whether or not your service is right for them. And in your messaging, I would expect to see language speaking to that specifically, like, we are not for you if blank and like, genuinely, we are not for you, like, not the, we're not for you if you don't want to make money. Like that's, that's cheating. But yeah, so your, your core values need to be. or your defining values as I call them, need to be actionable otherwise they are ornamental and not helping and kind of a waste of a lot of soul searching. Okay, so the next one was Brand Manifesto. And before I kind of worked my way down your bulleted list, and my little notes that I made for myself today, I said, same as Brand Story, question mark. But then I made it down to Brand Story, and then I said, oh. I was like, oh, okay, so this is different. And I can, are different. see that they are different, but I'm not, I myself am not exactly sure what makes them different. So. What's different in your manifesto between the actual story?, all of these different pieces of messaging have specific applications, I would say., and Your Brand Manifesto is actually my favorite part because as a word nerd, it's as close as I get to corporate poetry, and it's fantastic. So, Your Brand Manifesto is very client facing, it's your brand's call to arms. It's your call into the world and it can be poetic and it can be moving, but it's, it summarizes what you stand for, the action that you want clients to take, and it kind of makes people feel a thing. Yeah, it is your call to arms. It's very different from your brand story, which channels, Your Origin Story. What happened to get you here? How would your, how was your brand founded?, what's the, what's the narrative of how we got to where we are? Your brand story and your brand manifesto of those two, like your brand manifesto is going to make customers happy. Love You and Be Attracted to It. So it's visceral and it's like, oof, you are for me. Your brand story is going to be helpful if you're being interviewed, if you're doing a podcast, if you need a nice, concise, like, here's where we are, here's where we started, here's where we ended up. And a lot of things in a brand messaging guide. Um, again, we talked about it, like, taking it from your head and putting it on the page. Even if you know your brand story, there is absolutely merit to having someone who's very good with language articulate it and put it down someplace that is static that you can refer back to, just as a business owner. It's helpful that every time someone, , Asked to interview you for like a, an article online. You don't have to be like, Oh boy, wait a second. So I started off in my garage. I only had my teenage daughter helping me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Having your brand story articulated in a nice, fun narrative way is helpful for that.. And your audience is not just is not just your customers. Your audience is the other businesses and brands that are in, that, that are in your community as well. So a lot of your brand story is going to help you, like, you got to think about multiple audiences, but a lot of your brand story also might help you attract partners, like a part of your brand story that a customer may not care about when it comes to making a buying decision, but other aligned businesses. We'll say, Ooh, that's very similar to ours. We operate in similar ways. So having that articulated is a really powerful part of your, your messaging kind of ecosystem in general, even if it's not speaking directly to the person's deciding whether or not they're going to buy it. Yeah, and a prime example of that, of that, is this conversation, right? Like, Yeah, yeah. been, I connected, I think, before I had saw the post that you had done, but it was just the way that you had phrased it and, like, described it, like, was that little light bulb for me to be like, I'm interested in this. Now, let me collaborate with her on my show so I can share this. This very smart stuff with my audience as well. So, you're right. It does not Your messaging is more than just the way that you speak to leads and customers. It is the overall brand visibility that you have. Mm hmm. Alright, so moving on from the manifesto and the story, I find it interesting that you have separated the values from the mission and vision statements. Tell me why that you made that decision, and if you don't mind, I'd really like to hear your opinion on mission and vision statements, because I feel like this is something my clients have a hard time articulating when we do this together. The mission is what drives the action of the business forward. So when I explain this to clients, I say like, your mission is why your business exists and your vision, and this is the important distinction, and it is tough. Sometimes it is even tough for me to wrap my brain around, so don't feel bad if Like you're struggling with this, but the mission is why you started your business, what it exists to do. The vision is what the world or your ideal customer's world will look like if you successfully accomplish your mission. So this is what we're here to do. This is what we foresee our impact will be.. Yeah. vision as their vision for their business and instead of, calling their customers in and doing, like, why this mission work and why what they're doing right now is actually impacting people. So I think the way that you described it, it's pretty excellent right there. Yeah. Yup. Mission and Vision, I often tell people, I know that, , I think this is probably just a me opinion, but I always tell people that Mission and Vision are primarily internal. They are to, like, inspire the people working from within your company so that they know why they're here, whether, where they're going for. They are not gonna light a fire in your customers, so please don't put them on your website unless you have them, like, really Like lovingly massaged by someone who's really good with words to make it matter to the person outside of the organization, because those are for you. We had this conversation with Belinda just recently about like this USP and this is where I think another people kind of struggle is like, you know, their first day in business and then all of a sudden they have to make this big bold claim about like what sets them apart from everyone when they're just kind of figuring out what it is. So, the reason I bring that up is your elevator pitch and your positioning statement are kind of side by side. You want to talk about, like, maybe, like, either the order of them or, like, how they're working together? yeah, for sure. Can I tell you a secret? Absolutely. It will be on a podcast, though, just as a, That's fine. Can I tell you, can I tell you and 5, 000 of our closest friends, the secret? Yes, everyone do not repeat this past this conversation. Yeah, the secret is that I hate USPs for exactly that reason.. I mean, like, what are you doing that's completely different from anybody who has ever done this in the past? And you're like, Oh God, I don't know. Do I have one? It's just a, it's just a recipe for feeling like you're not good enough in business. And I think that's silly. So I do not have one in my messaging guides. What I do have instead. is a positioning statement. And the positioning statement basically says, like, here is what we are doing better or differently from our competitors. Because, like, let's be Be honest. The average business owner is not going to entirely revolutionize their industry and do something that has never, ever, ever, ever, ever been done before, but they still have an audience. And so your positioning statement says, here is why we are for you. Here's what differentiates us from our competition. And then the elevator pitch I tell clients like when you're at the table with your grandma and she's like, so what is it that you do again? You'd be like, oh, Here, that's your elevator pitch. That's what you save that for your high school reunion. Save that for a blurb in an article when you're being interviewed. It's a nice, succinct. statement of what your business is and what it does to someone who doesn't know anything about it. And again, this is a living document., these are, , prime examples of things that, like, we're not suggesting you take a copywriter's beautiful, , brand messaging guide and edit it, , all the time, but, , this is a prime example of where you would look to to say, like, It's been a year, is my business changed? Has my approach changed? Like is there anything I can add to this? Like, have I adjusted the way I do X, Y, and Z? Because these are things that will kind of grow with you as your business grows as well., also really appreciated that little lady voice that you did right there. I didn't know that we were gonna have like character sounds. My theater kid is always dormant and waiting to pop out It is any given moment. at any time. Uh, we joked about this before the call, but like, one thing that, like, I think we both kind of feel, eye rolling about, though, is extremely important, Is things like voice and tone. I feel like they're so generic whenever I see them., it's like the adjective thing you mentioned, like people just picking adjectives and running with it. But I thought it was pretty interesting that yours is called a tone chart. So like, how does that work with how you're presenting the tone to your clients? Okay, so I define voice and tone as I don't know if it's unique, but it's definitely like distinctly. So for me, your brand's tone, it shifts depending on the circumstances. And so that's why I present it to clients on like a continuum, but I tell them that your tone is literally grammatically how you write for your business. So I have two ends of the spectrum , and, I think five or, five or six different categories, , for their brand tone. But like, for instance, casual to formal, where does your brand fall? And based on that, what grammatical,, framework do you use for writing it down? So if you're on the scale from like enthusiastic to reserved, if you're closer to enthusiastic, you're going to be using a lot more bold. You're going to be using a lot more exclamation points and things like that, but it is also not one or the other. So having it be on a continuum allows you to have a lot of richness and nuance. And because People come to a messaging strategist because they're trying to stand out. The voice and the tone and the communication guide and the personality is really where we thrive. Like, all of the stuff that's, that we talked about before is foundational. It has to be correct. It has to be accurate because you have to build off of it. But this is where the fun happens. So the brand tone and like twisting it and tweaking it and having it be specific to your Your particular brand is what actually is eye catching on a page or in an ad or in a commercial even if you're like making your brand jump off the page and go into real life. You know, like, so many clients will say, like, the earlier parts that we've talked about, like, How did you find this out about my business? And, I'm not trying to discount our work, but I always tell them, like, that's you. Like, I am just kind of regurgitating nicely what it is that you said. But, like, I'm not actually making up your values. I'm not making up your vision. Like, I need that from you in order to, like, reshare it to you in the way that you can, like, absorb it. But when you get to something like that tone chart, it's kind of where you're able to say, You've given me this information, and I'm now able to tell you, based on my experience and my education, how you will present yourself. Based on all those things, right? So it, it's kind of more like the instructional element, you know, based on what we know and like it's the trust us in this part and you will be successful based on everything that you have shared about how you would like your business to look and feel and seem., and Also, just a little bit of PTSD from the MFA days. It's like, yes, every single way that you described enthusiastic is so important. Like, it's like the idea of, like, are you throwing in a bunch of, like, GIFs into your, or GIFs, or however you pronounce Mm hmm. Oof. But everyone, can we please limit the amount of exclamation points? Like, I had a, I had a teacher who would be, his name was Larry Bloom. He's written some really cool things. Go out there and read him., but the rule was like, you have like one exclamation point that you are allowed to use. And that's not, like, we were doing essays, so that's not per essay. That is like , per MFA. I'm not really exactly sure. It was like, one. Because, Use your one carefully. And don't get me wrong, like, I email a lot these days. I swear my emails are like, every sentence is an exclamation point. How else will I know if you're bad at me? Exactly! But the truth is, when it comes to marketing, the words we use on our website, it's like, people are reading that with the enthusiasm that an exclamation point, and this is just an example. Similar things for other style choices like, um, ellipses, you know, those three little dots, or like dashes., we have to think about the use of them and what's that, what that is implying to our audience. So, if you are an enthusiastic brand yourself and you work with corporate level clients, they're going to be way overwhelmed by a ton of exclamation points. And they're not going to see the professional layer if every three, third sentence isn't an exclamation point. So I pick on exclamation points, but again, this is like just an example of how what we're informing you of helps you make those good marketing decisions in the future and currently. To maintain this, personality, this brand that you've Mm hmm. and your business. I agree. And I think my brand tone chart is a little bit more,, specific, I think, than most. So like the two extremes that I have, just to give you a couple of example, we have like, um, modern versus traditional. That's a continuum. We have youthful to mature or conversational to concise., another one that I really love, and that's really helpful for clients is like accessible to jargony. And there is a time and there is an audience where you want to use more jargon because it does give you credibility and it's like a professional to professional conversation. Not every brand needs to break everything down like you're, like you're five because sometimes you'll bore your audience. So like these are the types of, of continuums that we want to think about in the actual like, how, how do we write this down? And then I also have communication guidelines. So like There's grammar. And then here are the guidelines that dictate how we choose to talk about things. And for those, I also tend to enforce limits. So enthusiastic is a really good, good one. So I will tell clients in their guides that your brand's voice is enthusiastic, but it's not giddy. So we are warm, we are enthusiastic, we are positive in the way that we talk about things, but we are not on a sugar high. So when you're writing, I don't want a bit, a billion exclamation marks. I don't want like a lot of like big over promising statements, but we're obviously very passionate about what we talk about. That's the difference. And those types of nuance in your brand voice, that's really what makes like, that's what makes the character of your brand like live and breathe and walk and talk. So helpful, and I love that you moved into that communication element because the other thing that stood out to me about your post is something I do with my own brand messaging guides is they're kind of served up in two parts. Part one is more like the business summary . So it's like all of these things, like the mission, vision, values, the tone., I call mine like the editorial style guide when I talk about these kind of things, to talk about like how we would share our tone and the examples, just like you're saying. But one thing that we're both doing that I actually don't see and I'm often very confused about Here's an example of USP, like, these are things that we've done naturally in our business because we feel like they all make sense, whereas other people may not be doing them. That would be a differentiator when we're talking about that without, like, being the key USP that makes, uh, like, us different from any other copywriter, is, it is showing our clients how to take that brand summary and then inform marketing efforts in the future, right? Because you have The In Depth Content Pillars, and you have use cases, and I have a whole, other section to mine, I call it, like, Marketing Made Easy, because we cover everything from, like, what are, like, content pillars, like you're talking about, content mediums, how to, like, then, like, use your messaging hierarchy with these things, and, like, that is kind of how, earlier in the conversation that you stated, like, you know, in your pillars, you're talking about, again, those values, and, like, how they're, like, related to each other. So, How do you choose the examples that you're sharing within those sections? Or like, how are you using those sections to help your clients be able to like, use this messaging guide in the future in their business? Yeah, so for communication guidelines, what I will have for people is What we would say, what we would not say. That's often very helpful and succinct. And I typically pull the, we would not say from, and I have to be careful about what I do this, but sometimes I will pull it from like past copy examples that they've done that I'm like, well, that's not serving you anymore. We would not say that. Or I will choose it from their direct competitors to be like, here's how other people are talking. We're not going to talk like that. And instead I will rephrase it using their brand voice so that they can see a clear, Oh, this is what's out there. This is how we want to do it better. So that's real. That's tangible. That's like more, less high level, more, here's actually how you write it. Um, obviously the brand tone section, having like actual grammatical, like, educational section, be like, use this, don't use this, use this, don't use this. That's helpful for a practical application. But then when we get into content pillars, um, that's a really strategic space and it's kind of tough because that is the thing that moves so quickly because a lot of time your content pillars, they're going to be like blogs, they're going to be emails, they're going to be social media, things that you say on social media, that space is changing like on a dime. So it's hard to give people exact examples of like. Write a social media post about this using these words. Instead, I will give them an objective. So, like, the objective of this type of content is to introduce people to your services. And within that objective, we're going, our, like, our sub objective is to,, allay their fears., or to resolve, any hesitations they may have about buying for us, from us. And we could do it by talking about this. We could do it by talking about that.. So just enough structure and making sure that It's tied in with all the work that we've done up until that point to make sure that like things are within bounds, that everything that we're saying is purposeful and actionable, but without giving you exactly the words to use, because like you've been saying, it's a living document and needs to be able to flow and work with you. Yeah, and now I'm shifting slightly. I'll apologize first because I think I might put you on the spot here. But you finished this, you've reviewed it with the client, everyone's so happy, you're proud of your work. How do you, as a copywriter, use a brand messaging guide to then write the copy? You know the client now. It's in your head, not just in their head as well, and it is on paper. What do you do with this information when you sit down to do, like, a website project or any other type of, like, copywriting project? So it's so funny. I stumbled into messaging strategy accidentally because I desperately needed something like this before I could start writing for somebody. So this is basically started from my own notes and saying, wait a second. It's not really fair that only I have this. I also need the client to agree to this before I start writing with this as my premise. So for instance, positioning statement, I will use this to check my work., which is. What I would hope a client would do as well if they were writing it for themselves or if another marketer was writing for them. So I, at this point, have a lot of their brand in my head. When I'm sitting down to write website copy, I will write intuitively and then I will use their messaging guide to check. So like positioning statement, for instance. Have I highlighted all the things that their business is doing well or did I forget about that one aspect, that really cool aspect of their business? We didn't talk about like the audience and like the client psychographics and things like that, but that's huge because once you identify their buyer type, that tells me what details to include. So for instance, if they're like a, if they're a driver, buyer type, I'm not going to include a ton of little backend details because I know that that will bore their clients. So I kind of go back and forth between their messaging guide and the actual copy to make sure that everything that I am doing rings true. And especially with the values, if I'm trying to make a judgment call about how I write something, I need to make sure it's aligned with their values. So. Is transparency very important to them? Yes, I need to add another section that is illuminating something that I feel like it's not being as clearly highlighted in other places as it should be. It needs its own dedicated section. And obviously with the brand Voice Tone, I am on that chart every single day being like, wait a second, do we, do we use italics here or? Or do we, do we do this? Is this sounding a little bit more jargony or is this sounding a little too, uh, like mature and they actually want to appeal to a more youthful crowd? I'm in there. Constantly. So it's just a nice set of checks and balances. And that's the nice thing about having a strategy is that you do it in advance and you don't have to, it makes the writing so much smoother because you don't need to re relitigate things as you're writing. You're just like, wait a second, we decided this already. Yep. That's right. Also brand manifestos. I love them so much. I will pull sentences from that all day long to be like, I need a juicy headline. What did I write in the brand manifesto? Oh, that sounds good. Let's do that. yeah, which is why it's also very important to understand that like you can take copy that has already been written if it's if it's written well and use it as examples within your brand messaging guide and you can also take part of the brand messaging guide to use within your copy also if your brand messaging Mm hmm. When you're done with the copy now, you've used the guide to inform the copy, you're ready to present the copy to the client. Do you ever use your guide as kind of like how you're presenting it? I'll use it if there's a strategic decision that I've made that they don't quite understand. Obviously, if a client, like, if I write something and a client is like, I'm so sorry, I really hate that line, I'll rewrite it. But a lot of times, I will present copy, and even if it makes the client like, I don't know, maybe not like, Maybe it makes them a little bit uncomfortable because it's a riskier choice than they would have taken, or maybe they wouldn't have particularly phrased it in some way. The guide makes it so easy for me to go back to like, actually, the reason that we did that is because your buyer loves this detail, or your buyer is scared about that detail. So you can kind of use it to like back yourself up, but most of the time, if they understand their guide well enough and they've kind of signed off on it ahead of time, the Copy is just their guide brought to life, and so everything kind of falls in place, but it's a good like, it's a, it's a wonderful client management tool for marketers to be like, well, we built this guide collaboratively. We both agreed on it. This is sound strategy. It's not my opinion. It's not your opinion. It's a strategic decision that we both made together in the planning process, and I'm utilizing it here. So it's nice. Mm cause I always, , I wouldn't say the word struggle with is the right choice, but like, I always struggle with, like, am I providing my clients way too much information,? Cause sometimes I'm like, here's the reason I made this choice, or like, here's the reason I made that choice, and I'm like, they don't need to know the reason you made every choice. We need to maybe explain Some, so that way they understand, like, you know, if it's not, if aligned with expectations, but I'm like, you're not educating them on every decision you made. You're presenting them with quality information for them to make decisions. So I'm always curious on, like, how other people kind of present, like, the copy that they've created and what qualifiers that they're sharing with it because I think that when we do the brand first, it's so helpful to then have that as the, like, We talked about doing this, so this is why I chose that, or whatever. You know what, I tend to think of it almost like a director's commentary for a movie. Like, the movie, when you're watching the movie, it should, like, live on its own. It's enjoyable as is. But then, when you listen to the director's commentary, you're like, Oh my gosh, now I understand why they did that shot. I understand what that's supposed to mean. So there's value in both. But I feel like, Good copy is public facing. They shouldn't necessarily like need the strategy to feel whether or not they resonate with it, but it is a good like backup to kind of prove that you're not just, not just winging it, that you made a good decision for the right reason. And then again, it's also a way to make sure you're consistent, you have it, you create the copy, and then it will sound the same because you're using that same Stuff to kind of formulate the rest of your marketing stuff. All right, I use the word stuff twice in a sentence. That means we're at the end of our episode, everyone. Zoe, thank you so much for being here today. It was really, , fascinating to take a peek into how you do your process. And never mind my fascination. I think it's really helpful for the people who are listening. So thank you so much for your time. so much for having me. I love being able to nerd out about messaging guys. Anytime, literally anytime. All right, we'll have to have you back then., but for everyone else, come back next week. We're still in the middle of our brand messaging series. So we have more content to share with you about brand messaging guides and using them, to really showcase your business as one whole, wonderfully, beautifully created brand.