Sourdough and Sustainability with Abigail Levie

In today’s episode we get to hear stories and insights from Abigail Levie, a young entrepreneur in the health and baking sector. Abigail tells the story of founding Abigail's Oven Sourdough Bakery, a business she started at the age of 10. Thanks to her sourdough preparation methods and the way she chooses her flour suppliers her bread is much friendlier for gluten-sensitive individuals, including her father and so many of us.. Abigail went on to learn about agriculture and soil science, and she now seeks to connect farmers to resources that can aid in sustainable farming. This episode emphasizes the importance of the origin and processing methods of our food, and champions a hopeful future in which more people join movements to act sustainably.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

01:05 Introducing the Guest: Abigail Levi

01:36 Abigail's Journey into Entrepreneurship

02:00 The Health Benefits of Sourdough Bread

02:12 Abigail's Education and Career in Sustainable Agriculture

02:55 Conversation with Abigail Levi

04:57 The Story Behind Abigail's Oven Sourdough Bakery

05:34 The Role of Family in Abigail's Business

11:25 The Health Benefits of Sourdough Bread Revisited

19:56 The Growth and Mission of Abigail's Oven

20:39 Abigail's Religious Mission and the Impact of Natural Foods

22:24 Experience with Bread in Different Countries

22:40 The Impact of Fermentation and Harvesting Styles on Bread

23:23 The Trade-off Between Convenience and Nutrition in Bread Production

24:02 The Quality of Flour and Its Impact on Bread

25:27 Choosing the Right Flour for Baking

25:59 Understanding the Difference Between Wheat Flour and White Flour

26:51 The Importance of Freshly Ground Grains

27:22 The Role of Fermentation in Unlocking Nutrients

28:56 The Impact of Pesticides on Wheat and Flour

30:27 Choosing the Right Flour for Your Needs

34:40 The Journey from London to Studying Small Business Management

36:05 Exploring Agriculture and Soil Health

37:18 The Connection Between Soil Health and Healthy Bodies

37:38 The Role of Farming in Society and the Environment

38:59 The Future of Farming and Soil Regeneration

41:53 The Importance of Connecting Farmers with Information and Resources

44:25 A Message of Hope for the Future of Farming and Nutrition

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome to the what really makes a difference podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Becca Whitaker. I've been a doctor of natural health care for over 20 years and a professional speaker on health and vitality, but everything I thought I knew about health. Was tested when my own health hit a landslide and I became a very sick patient I've learned that showing up for our own health and vitality is a step by step journey that we take for the rest of our lives and This podcast is about sharing some of the things that really make a difference on that journey with you So grab your Explorer's hat while we get ready to check out today's topic. My incredible guest network and I will be sharing some practical tools, current science and ancient wisdom that we all need, no matter what stage we are at in our health and vitality. I've already got my hat on and my hand out, so let's dive in and we can all start walking each other home. Ooh, welcome to today's episode. I am so glad you are here. We are recording with Miss Abigail Levi and she is of a little bit younger generation than most of the podcast. And I think you will see why I'm excited to have her on the show. When we really get into it, she is only in her early twenties and already has so much life experience behind her in business, in health, in cultivation of health, not only with what she sells in business and in the cultivation of health through some surprising ways. So a little more about her. She's an entrepreneur and has been since she was age 10. She founded Abigail's Oven Sourdough Bakery and it is one of the only breads that I, as a very gluten sensitive person, can eat. I seek out her bread and it actually helps my stomach feel better, not worse. So we talk about why that can be the case and what it is that she does different in the bread. So for those of you who may have a gluten sensitivity or autoimmune issues, please tune in to this episode because it just may turn out that you could eat some bread again. Ha ha ha ha! She studied small business management at BYU Idaho and that led to a passion for sustainable agriculture. She graduated from the Georgic Schoolroom in Nevada, which focuses on sustainable farming and agriculture. Now she works at the Georgic Revolution and does marketing and recruiting students for a summer gardening course, and also connecting students and farmers with the community at large to help us get some more nutrients in our soil and to help make it more sustainable to continue farming practices today. So fascinating conversation from a really wonderful woman. And I hope you enjoy it. See you there.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 2:55

I am so grateful today to be able to share a conversation with Abigail Levi. I think by the, not even by the end, by a few minutes in, you will see why I, I'm really grateful to share this time. Abigail has done so. Abigail is a person that I love to talk to. It just gives me hope for the generation coming up right behind mine that there are people paying attention to what they wanna learn and going forward with what they wanna do and how they can make a difference in Not only their life, but other people's life to improve the culture in general, that Abigail is one of these people. So welcome Abby. It's nice to talk to you today.

Track 1: 3:35

Oh, thank you so much, Becca.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 3:37

You are welcome. So Abigail is, if you have seen in health food stores, there's a dutch oven, sourdough bread called Abigail's oven and it is one of the only breads that I can buy in a store that I can digest. So I am very sensitive to gluten, as are a lot of people with health problems. Whether they know it or not. So I don't even really pay attention to what's on the bread aisle for myself certainly. But someone asked me to try your bread and I did. So knowing that I might be miserable that night and the next day, but I wasn't. I was so happy. I still remember like literal joy that I felt slicing avocados and having avocado bread on actual chewy delicious, wonderful bread like I can't tell you what that meant to me. I hadn't had bread in like five years so I went to a regenerative gardening bootcamp in Nevada and when I walked through the door there was a box full of Abigail's oven bread and I was like, oh, Abigail's oven bread. These people know about this. That's so cool. How do you know Abigail's oven bread and. They were like, well, that's Abigail. I'm like, Abigail, like Abigail's, like this is her oven. like, I'm meeting a superstar in my world. You are a superstar. So what I would like to start with asking you about is how was Abigail's oven started? Because you are just in your early twenties and it's big enough that I found it in a health food store.

Track 1: 5:08

Thank you so much for the intro. I was, I'm so happy that you brought up the fact that you can eat our bread because that's really our mission and we really want to help people to understand and the, and learn about the health of their bodies and how they can have products that can help them feel good and not nasty in their stomach. So like. Becca said, I am Abigail from Abigail's Oven, but I can't take all the credit. This is a family business right now. My parents run the bakery and my siblings have helped out and it's been a wonderful journey. But I actually began when I was 10 years old and I lived in Cedar City, Utah,

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 5:45

I didn't know that

Track 1: 5:47

Yeah, so actually it started, started in your hometown and that's where it began. My, I grew up in Cedar City actually. And so when I was 10, I heard a story of this girl, my mom's friend's daughter who had sold enough bread that she could serve an LDS mission. And so she saved up and she decided to go to a different country and. Teach about Jesus Christ, and that was something that I always wanted to do growing up. And so she had done that and that was something that I wanted to do. And so I saw, I had a great role model. She had started to sell bread. It wasn't sourdough bread, and I hadn't actually been introduced to sourdough bread yet. And so what I was, I decided to do was to start a bread business. I really wanted to start a business before that, but I didn't know what to do. And so she inspired

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 6:35

Before 10 years old, you wanted to start

Track 1: 6:37

Well, before I learned about the bread business, yeah, about eight. I asked my mom, I was like, oh, I wanna start a business. And I think she caught me, me and my, my little brother, we had drawn pictures and we had taken them to our neighbors. It's, and sold them for like a quarter or something. And my mom, she brought us back and she's like, guys, this is so awesome that you wanna create value, but when you, that you wanna sell things, but when you sell things, you need to, give something that's valuable to someone else. And she said, if you want to draw pictures, that's great, but you need to make sure that your pictures are beautiful and people want that. And so we were like, okay, well what can we do to, to give value? And so I had already had a background of wanting to sell things.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 7:15

And wanting

Track 1: 7:16

often tell people

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 7:17

valuable for others.

Track 1: 7:18

Mm-Hmm,

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 7:19

is bonus parenting move right there.

Track 1: 7:21

Right. And so those are the two things that I think that I had that really going for me were I had great mentors in the form of my two parents that were just amazing. They supported me, they helped me believe that I could do whatever I wanted and all I needed to do was work hard and make sure that I was creating something good in the world. And then I also had that role model of someone else who had done the same thing who had had Started a business, so I decided to do it. I, I made bread. I had already known how to make bread because it was one of my chores as a member of a big family. And so I knew how to make bread. I made,

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 7:54

sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you. So how many children are in your family? You said big family.

Track 1: 7:59

so I am the oldest of 10. So my, my parents had 10 kids. At the time, I think I, there was five of us when I was 10.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 8:06

hallelujah. That you are a natural leader. I had best friends that were the, some of the older of the, of 11 children in one family. I'm like, wow, extra leadership is very helpful.

Track 1: 8:19

Yes,

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 8:19

you're 10, you're the oldest, and you're going, okay, here we go.

Track 1: 8:23

Yes. And I was, I was living actually just outside of Cedar City, so we were outside of town and I just over by the airport and we. I decided to sell to my neighbors. So I started selling to my neighbors. They loved it, but it was very random. I would make bread when I felt like it and sold it. And one of my neighbors was like, Abby, I never know when you're coming and I never know if I should buy bread at the grocery store or not. Will you just bring me bread every week? And I was like, oh, that's brilliant. I'm going to start a delivery company so then I don't have to do all the work to sell it. I can just have return customers. And so I hired my dad to drive me because I was still young and I made bread and I would deliver it. I kept a chart on Excel, and I would just deliver it to the right house and I would, we would get more and more customers. And by the time I was 11, the summer of my 11th year, I had 350 customers. And in the process my dad had. Been working to finish his education and he decided to stop his day job and he decided to help me and it became our family income by 20 20, 20 11.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 9:28

Wow.

Track 1: 9:29

So it went from me just having a project, wanting to sell things, to finding a name, Abigail's Oven, and to building a brand and creating a lot of value for people. And so I was able to

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 9:42

you to ask another question. What was your kitchen like at this point? I mean, there's multiple children and your 350 customers a week.

Track 1: 9:51

Yeah, so I didn't deliver to all of them once a week. I had a system of one once every week or twice a month or a monthly, but it was still a lot. And I look back and I don't know, after now we have a bakery, right? And we make thousands of loaves with these big ovens that do 250 at a time. So I'm like, I don't know how I did it. We had two ovens at the time, and we could do In one batch. And so I don't know how we managed to do everything

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 10:20

You did like bread for most of the kitchen and a tiny other portion was all the other meal space

Track 1: 10:26

exactly. Yeah.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 10:28

we do when we're starting things. We just jump in and you can either wait until you have the perfect kitchen and the huge equipment to even start, or you can just start and you grow as you need to. That is truthfully the best Businesses that I know you start and you just solve the problems as they come. I love that your family was supportive as well.

Track 1: 10:54

Yeah. My mom was an angel. The reason I didn't start when I was eight years old was because she said, no, you can't start a business because I'll end up doing all the work, and So she always tells that part of the story because as a mom, that's a lot, right? She already had five kids, but she's amazing and it has since evolved. I knew that homemade bread was better than store-bought bread just because of the love that you put into it and you can control the quality of ingredients. But I didn't understand anything about sourdough. So to give our listeners a little bit of context, our bakery now is completely sourdough. We sell eight different flavors of sourdough bread 10 during the holidays, and we. We specialize in a 24 hour ferment, so it's a full real sourdough. And so we moved up to Provo area. So we're in Utah County in 2013, and my dad had gotten a job and in the educational world he was building education programs, which was he really loved, but he just wasn't a desk job person. And I had started up. The, the bakery a little bit just to have some extra cash because I was like, I'm never gonna get back to 300 customers. I had to say goodbye to all of them. It was so sad. But I'll, I'll continue it to, to get some extra cash to, to earn some money. While I am in my high school years my mom and dad had met a guy named Gov Allen, and he's amazing. He had learned to make sourdough in San Francisco. California. And so as I was selling bread my mom was like, well, let's make some sourdough. And I was like, oh, no, sourdough just has that weird flavor. I don't really wanna go for sourdough. I like our, our nice fluffy bread that's you know, kind of cake like, but still got some, it's homemade so it's got good qualities to it. And. It was actually my great grandma's recipe. I can't, I can't cheat on my great grandma, right? Like I have to stick to the family recipe. But my mom had learned how to make sourdough from gov, and that was a Dutch oven method. To put sourdough in a Dutch Dutch oven and it's 24 hours per minute. And it was so much work. But what we found is that's when we were introduced to the health of sourdough. And my dad, he has always struggled with bread. Ironically, I, I make bread growing up and he couldn't, he couldn't eat it very well. His, his gut just couldn't digest the gluten and so he kind of just stayed away from it. And we always felt sad about that, but I was. I told my dad, dad, I'm not making gluten-free bread. I'm sorry, but have you tried to bake with those flowers like

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 13:25

It's terrible.

Track 1: 13:26

It's, it's.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 13:27

WHen I shifted over to being gluten-free, I tried buying nearly every brand and oh good. Like I'd just rather not have bread. I just wrap things in lettuce, but all to have the smell of fresh bread around me all the time. I don't know what kind of amazing self-control your father had. I would wanna bury my face in it anyway.

Track 1: 13:52

my hat is off to all the amazing, I have amazing friends who are gluten-free bakers, and they do an amazing job, and I just don't know how they do it. It's beyond me, my skill level, they, they are able to take the, the flour that they have and create wonderful products. So if, if you know someone that's like that, it's really amazing and I love that they're able to, and I really struggled with that. And so I was like, dad, no, sorry. Well, you can go buy some from the store or just.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 14:19

Yep.

Track 1: 14:20

I don't go make some spaghetti the

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 14:23

Go make some

Track 1: 14:24

right? But so when gov told us, he said, oh, and by the way, sourdough is actually really good for your gut. Because it is processed. A lot of people that struggle with gluten can actually digest it. Because what, what happens is with wheat in general, it should be sprouted or fermented because that kernel, when you grind it up, there's a brand and there's a, a phytic acid on there, that what it does is when it is dissolved, the wheat will re release a lot of nutrients and when it is fermented. What it does is it breaks down the gluten strands that are, are made when you make bread. There's a, a thing called gluten and wheat that we're, we've been talking about, right? And that is in its raw form, very hard to digest. foR us in our humans. Just like we can't go outside and lick a rock and say, oh, that's my iron for the day. we, there is some things in grains that we need to be processed first so that our digestive system can handle it. And so in gluten, in its raw form does not make our, our digestive system in our gut happy.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 15:39

Right.

Track 1: 15:39

But if it is fermented, what it does is my mom says it kind of breaks it down or predigests it for us. Just like a plant would take iron from the ground and make it into a bio. Digestible form. So I really like that comparison because it's true. We, we need plants to get the minerals from the ground to give us the nutrients that we need. And it's the same kind of thing with fermentation. And so what it is, is a sourdough is a living yeast and it's bacteria, and as it, you put water and flour together and you let it sit and ferment, what it does is the bacteria breaks down all of the gluten for you and it makes it completely digestible for you.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 16:21

Yeah, I, I, find that so fascinating. So the commercial yeasts that they use in bread, actually I've heard, I don't remember which strain it is, but it's strain similar to mushrooms in their. basically created, synthesized in labs also to be very rapidly producing and very hardy. And I know even baking, it cannot make, even when it's baked, some of those strains don't die. And then they continue in our guts, which is like the bloating nastiness. It's literally the yeast continuing is part of the bloat. Part of it is allergy, but I learned until me. If this tracks with what you're learning. I learned that the natural bacteria that you use when you're creating sourdough not only is digesting the starches, but also their byproduct is super healthy for us. It like helps predigests, which is great, but also releases some other nutrients that we need. So not only is the other one really bad for us, but this one is really good. And doesn't it also make the glycemic index lower? I think I read sourdough bread is

Track 1: 17:31

gonna.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 17:32

yeah, sourdough bread's like a. 60 or something, or 68 on the glycemic index. And normal commercial bread is a hundred, which is the highest the glycemic index goes.

Track 1: 17:43

Yeah. And so it can get kind of confusing'cause we're talking about two different kinds of yeast, but they're both yeast, right? There's a natural yeast, which we call a sourdough starter, and we call it natural yeast because it just, it happens with, with the bacteria and the flour, the water and the air. And it's a fermenting process. And you're right, there's a commercial yeast that was created to accelerate the process of rising bread. And so what happens is the natural yeast helps to ignite with the gluten to make the bread rise and the. The commercial yeast does the same thing and it just accelerates the process and it does it really fast. And what you said was exactly true. A lot of people don't realize that when they eat the commercial yeast, they actually crave sugar because those strands are still there, and those strands want to be fed by sugar.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 18:26

Ah.

Track 1: 18:27

And so it actually and there's, there's some, if you guys want sources for this and stuff, we have a lot of blogs on our website. So you can go to abigails oven.com and look these kind of things up. So then, you know, I'm not just saying my personal opinion, but I do have some research and we've written some blogs to back that up. But what happens is with the natural yeast, it lowers the glycemic content, not just for the bread. Or the carbs that you're eating, but it's actually for your whole entire meal because it's going into your gut and it's going to help you to process it all. So it's really cool if you have a slice of sourdough with your meal, it's actually healthier over round, not just because you're not eating bad bread, but the natural prebiotics in the bread help the whole digestive system. I, we have chiropractors and health professionals that actually prescribe our bread or prescribe a real sourdough because it can help to heal someone who are, is struggling with other digestive problems in their gut, with the bacteria content. And so it's very fascinating and I encourage all of you to do some research for yourself to, to find out what the experts have found with their studies and How everything works. But what I can say is I know it works because I have met people like Becca and I have been able to interact with miracles where people have been able to have bread and have a better and healthy lifestyle because of the beauty of sourdough. So it's, it's incredible what we have learned and that has become the mission of Abigail's Oven. We're now going on year nine. Since my parents partnered up with me and we found a bakery in Spanish Fork, a, a building, we built it out and now we sell bread all throughout Utah and we ship all over the country and we make tons of bread hoping that we can get a healthy product into people's homes to help them have a healthy lifestyle and be happy and live their dreams.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 20:27

And you showed me a picture of your ovens. There are these massive ovens that can

Track 1: 20:31

Yeah.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 20:32

these adorable miniature Dutch ovens where each loaf is. I think it's amazing. Okay. So then fast forward, your parents took over the business when you did indeed earn enough money to go on this, on the religious mission that you wanted to go

Track 1: 20:48

Yep.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 20:49

Yes. so so neat. So you went to London, correct.

Track 1: 20:55

Mm-Hmm.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 20:55

London is one of the places where so I have visited there twice and a a few other countries, a few other times. And when I am in. The other countries by about day three or day four when my system relaxes and I am used to eating foods that are more natural and not sprayed with as many chemicals and just crap as the United States food is. I start to be able to eat gluten, but they're kind of gluten. I actually heard my friend, and forgive me, I don't know what she was watching but she was watching a show about how they make pasta in Italy. Because they use their regular flour there, but they ferment it longer in these big batches. And this man that had this big pasta factory was talking about how Americans come to Italy and can eat the pasta and it's different. He was saying, this is why it's different. We ferment it this long, we do this long process. And he said, what takes them a year to make the volume of pasta and the quality of pasta a year takes three. Was it three days? No, three hours in an American factory. I just thought, well, we are eating drl three hours versus one year. I mean, I can see if you need to feed a lot of people why you wanna speed that process up. But in other countries, the food really does taste and process differently. So did you have that experience in London also? And can you tell me a little bit about what we do to the flower? Here or to the grains growing in the flour that can make it so we feel so different in or out of country.

Track 1: 22:37

Yes, yes, of course. There are lots of different factors. Just to caveat at the beginning, there could be many different things and I do think it has a lot to do with the fermentation process and the style of harvesting. That they have in other countries compared to what we have. But I did have that experience actually when I was in London. It was amazing to see a lot of the style of bread wasn't necessarily maybe a true sourdough, but they still let it sit a lot longer than most breads that are in the us. The US doesn't do super great with bread, and I'm sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings, but we're just, we're just not very good at bread

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 23:14

We're

Track 1: 23:15

It's not our.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 23:15

fast producers.

Track 1: 23:17

Yes, very fast. And I think my mom has a, a phrase that she has coined. And I always quote her, she always says that if you look at the history of wheat and the history of bread and how it has evolved, you'll see that we have traded convenience for nutrition. And I think that is a true a principle for a lot of the things that have evolved are especially food-wise in our society, but specifically bread. It has been very stark. When commercial use was invented, we. We decided to trade convenience of, okay, now we don't have to let it sit for 24 hours or like do the whole process. It's now a two hour process or a 30 minute process. And a lot of times we don't realize that there are consequences to that. But to speak to the quality of flour, I think that yOur experience in Italy is so cool because what they do is they process things. I'm not sure specifically what you experienced with that specific grower, but our, our growers

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 24:17

go to Italy. My friend was just watching a show of Italy, but I found that in Bolivia, Peru, London, and Japan, all those places I can eat so.

Track 1: 24:27

That's amazing. So there are a lot of laws in England. I know for sure. I don't know any of the other places, but about what you can spray, what you can't, you can't spray on or crops. And I know that the flour that we use matters. So the quality of your ingredients is going to directly have, like, directly impact the experience you'll have eating and your body processing those ingredients. And so there's lots of things. There's what we put on our wheat, right? There's the spraying there's the processing and all of that stuff. And any additives that you. You put, and then there's also what kind of wheat we're using. So there is this thing called dwarf wheat. There's GMO types of plants and things like that. And so whether you're using ancient grain versus a, a new developed grain, those all are factors in what makes a healthy quality product.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 25:26

So how did you choose what flour to use and what were you looking for or avoiding?

Track 1: 25:32

Yes. Okay. So the flower we use right now is from a mill in Logan, Utah. They are, it's called central milling and we use a baker's blend and we love them because they make a blend where they actually just grind the wheat really, really fine, and they add the brand back in. And so a lot of the nutrients is actually in the kernel and that's why people say wheat bread is so much healthier, right? The difference between wheat flour and white flour is oddly not very well known. I, I thought it would be obvious'cause I grew up baking, but a lot of people don't realize what the difference is. What it is, is when you grind wheat, there is a, the kernel is still on it not on it, but the kernel is ground up as well, and they, it doesn't grind as fine as what the inside of the actual wheat is. And so it's a little more coarse, but a lot of the nutrients of the wheat is on that kernel. And so when you sift it out to make white flour, which is what white flour is, it's wheat flour that has been sifted and usually bleached or refined in a specific way to make it lighter, fluffier, and white. It's really good for pastries and I suggest that people use it for pastries all the time. But. The, the, the most nutrients. If you want the most nutrients, you get a grain and you grind it yourself because the fresher it is that it's from its ground. And the more of the kernel you have in it, the more healthy, nutritious it will be.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 27:04

Isn't

Track 1: 27:04

we

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 27:05

fat, like healthy fats that can go rancid after it is actually turned into a flower?

Track 1: 27:12

mm-Hmm.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 27:12

so the faster you do it, then you can still utilize those healthy fats instead of having them go rancid. Am I right in that?

Track 1: 27:21

Mm-Hmm. And what happens is the phytic acid that's on the outside of the kernel, when it is fermented, it helps to unlock all the nutrients. It's like the, the, the key to the door of all, a lot of the nutrients in the flour. A lot of people are like, oh, weed is so bad for you. A lot. It is not. It has been the staple of almost every society. Is what people have, have lived off of is a lot of grains, right? And so it, it can be unhealthy if it is not processed correctly and if it's not unlocked the

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 27:53

I remember a discussion with my father, so I started learning about health and nutrition when I was in college, and it hadn't really been anything we ever focused on. Food was just a thing we needed to do. I'm the middle of seven children. You just need to feed the beasts. just need to feed the minions but. I started to be interested in it. And when I started telling him about having fewer grains and carbohydrates, he thought I was full of crap because he was a very religious person and was referencing like wheat being a basis for what we need and a fruit of the earth. And, but I was looking at the research I was seeing and wondering how does this correlate, you know, is it, is some of it just colloquial wisdom passed down that is, is not applicable anymore? And what I'm actually coming to that is not a Bible or religious statement, is just, I think the wheat has changed. Like you said, there's so many different kinds of GMO, everything. I think we've messed with it. Plus for me, what I know I'm the most sensitive to is what they spray on it. So when they spray. the glyphosate. For those of you who have not ever heard of it, I'm gonna break it down a little. For those of you who know all about it, just stay with me. But glyphosate, they spray on it to help with weeded control, correct. Abigail? Is that what you understand? But it gets on that seed kernel and that is the part, and once it's on that seed kernel, then as you turn it into flour, you have the poison mixed in. Glyphosate basically punches holes in the lining of your gut, and it contributes a ton to autoimmune disease because those tiny little holes in your gut can they affect the seal of the gut, which means you're affecting the entire culture within the gut of bacteria of nutrients. And some food can actually Get out, which causes an immune autoimmune reaction in your body. So it's basically like mixing poison in with the flour that ends up making your whole body angry. I remember learning some of those things that were highest in glyphosate, like Cheerios are some of the highest glyphosate containing foods There are any company now that is big food producer is usually using companies that have to grow so much that they have to basically poison their crop to make it more efficient for weeded control and harvesting. But it's not great So how do you source your, were you looking for that when you were sourcing your flour from different companies, or what else do you look for as far as the pesticides sprayed on? On the

Track 1: 30:44

Yeah. Okay. So that's a, a huge point. What we put in our body matters, and a lot of times it's hard to find a flower that hasn't been used. But the nice thing is you can find some wheat that hasn't been sprayed at all with fertilizer or any glyphosate or any other pesticide resistant sprays or things like that. Here let things, something hasn't been gm. Un fortified. So if you don't know what that means, fortified means that there's additives people that have added things back into the flour for different things. Sometimes it's a really good thing'cause they wanna try to make it more nutritious because by taking the brand out, you're taking some of the nutrition out. But a lot of times they, they add, they add what they say is nutritious. A lot of times they'll add different metals back into the, the flour, but like, just like the gluten isn't very digestible for our guts, you can't just add raw minerals into something that is not already available to our gut digestive system.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 31:58

And I know the

Track 1: 31:58

And so.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 31:59

often are not in a form that we can digest in the first place, I know a lot of those additives really can muck up our detoxification channels'cause we're trying to get rid of the things that are not actually food in the way we can process it.

Track 1: 32:13

So when a flower says fortified, I, I usually avoid, we, we avoid using those flowers. alSo the shelf life of a flower, if you're getting flour that's already ground. liKe, like I said earlier, you, you have, the nutrition kind of goes down exponentially and there is risk of. Other things happening to the flour. And so the, the fresher it is the, the better and the better quality your bread will turn out and then, or whatever you're making with flour. And then we try to go with organic. I know you can't always trust the word organic always, but I, I think if you know your grower and you, you know, that that's important to them to do as much as closest to the organic process of growing wheat. They're not, they're not adding too much. They're not trying to change too much of the process. That is also important to us. So if you want quality flour, you get something that is closest to an ancient grain as possible as little split, and then that something that is unfortified and not sprayed. And then if it can be organic, that's great. Or if you know your grower, you know that they are. Very health conscious of the consequences of spraying chemicals on your food and what those, how those affect your body.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 33:30

I know we don't really want to point out or not point out brands, but if I know you order a lot of flowers so you can really go with those companies. If we're just walking down a normal aisle, is there a brand or two that you, that you like? That seems like a pretty good. Thing to look for.

Track 1: 33:51

King Arthur king Arthur's Flour is a really good brand. We, we like them, they do a really good job with their farms are, are reliable. They don't do a ton of processing, which is really good. And then central milling, if you can ever find central milling, we really like central milling a lot, and there's a couple other brands. If you want a list of brands, you can go to abigail's oven.com and there's a, there's a blog post about flour and it has all the brands in Utah that we recommend making sourdough with. I can't remember all of them off the top of our heads. We usually just have our, our main one.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 34:28

Okay. Beautiful. Thank you.

Track 1: 34:30

Arthur, you can order online central milling. You can order online. They'll ship it to your house. And you can also find other organic grains around in.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 34:40

I. Okay, so fast forward then you came back from London where you were eating delightfully, unsprayed, delicious food, and you had some decisions to make. So tell me about your next stages, and I wanna talk about what you're doing now.

Track 1: 34:58

Yeah, so really quickly, we, I got back and my, my parents have already had already figured out how to do the bakery without me. I mean, they were already doing it a lot before I left, but they were doing really well. They were being very successful and I was like, well, I could get back into the bakery. And work on that and continue with that in my life. Or I could take this opportunity to explore some other things and get an education and maybe figure out if there's other passions that I want to pursue. And so I decided to go to school. I went to BYU Idaho studying small business management. I've always been a business girl. From the beginning people, so a lot of people think that I'm a baker. They're like, oh, you, you must've just loved baking and wanted it, wanted to make money with it. And I've said, well, actually it's the opposite. I love business and I knew how to bake so it, it kind of worked out the opposite way. But so I decided to study business and I loved it. I loved my classes. It was a really great school, but I am a doer. I need to be working with my hands. And it was really hard for me to be in an educational environment where I was in a classroom and there was a lot of theory and I was like, I just need to do something. And I think an education is really good, but for me, I decided it would be best to just go start pursuing other things. And so I always had been interested in agriculture just because we use wheat and flour. And I had to learn about a lot about how that's grown and where it comes from. And so I've. I was curious about that. So I attended a college, Monticello College, who focuses on sustainability. And connecting with the land. And then I met William Demill through that college and I decided to take William Dem Mill's course. It's a soil science course that is 17 weeks long. And you go and live on his, on the ranch that he works at, and he teaches you the biology and about biology in the soil. He teaches you how to heal the soil and create a functioning soil so you can grow nutritious food. And he focuses on being profitable without adding a ton of. Things to your garden, to your farm such as glyphosate, because a lot of people, they don't wanna use glyphosate, but they use it because they can't get rid of the weeds. They can't get rid of the pests. They can't get rid of a lot of the, they spray things and they need to add fertilizer because they can't get their plants to grow. And so he taught me about the health of a, the soil and how it's important to have the health of the soil so that the soil can actually support the plants and the food that we we consume. And that translate into a healthy lifestyle. And so I was inspired by that because I. when people ate our bread, it also helped to create a healthy lifestyle because when your body is healthy and when your body's happy and eating good things, that translates into family happiness and career happiness and all of the other things. And I was inspired because I, I think that farming is such a holy profession. It's always been the, the foundation of America. We need farmers and we need people to, to be working with the land to. Help create resources. And so I was inspired by that and I decided that that was something I wanted to pursue, not only so that I could maybe figure out how to grow wheat for Abigail's oven.'cause I thought that would be really cool if I could produce the wheat that we actually grow so that we can be more sustainable. Because that is really important to me to, to not have to rely so much on middlemen or, or second. Second things, but if we could produce it ourselves, it would be that much more reliable after learning about the health of the soil and how that translates into healthy bodies,, now I'm, I took the course, I graduated and I work for William right now, marketing for his course. And helping to make the world a better place and bring hope for people that are in the farming industry or are thinking about going into the farming industry because they I think a lot of times in our, in our modern society, it's hard because it's really hard. Hard to have a profitable farm. if you've been in that profession before, you would know it can be hard without adding a lot of fertilizer and stuff like that, but that's expensive and that adds to your over overhead. And William has helped me to learn that if we, as we mimic nature and we use principles learned from permaculture, biodynamics, and regenerative agriculture, that we can farm mimicking nature. Still be profitable because we don't have to add so much. It's just changing our management style. And so I hope that I can help bring hope to the younger generation and to the farming, the farmers and ranchers out there who are doing amazing things.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 39:27

Oh, that's just so beautiful. So I know the reader, the listeners can't see my face, but I'm like smiling all over inside. As soon as you say you found William Dimm Mill's work, because I am having him as a guest on the show, which I'm so excited and grateful about. I heard him on a podcast and he was talking about living soil and It just lit a fire in me. I just kept researching. I was watching everything I could find him hi of his on YouTube. I joined his Patreon account because it just made so much sense. He talked about the soil in a way that I understood the gut, and he talked about the diversity that's needed and the hope for are healing the soil. And I mean, I had heard so much of negativity about like we are not negativity, but the cold hard truth of that. We are killing the soil. There's not nutrients in our food. There is poison in our food, but you can feel really helpless. Like, I mean, I have to eat and my family has to eat. And yes, I see the terrible habits being taught to families and children, and I know we're in an autoimmune culture, but what are you supposed to do about it if big, huge companies are killing the earth? Like, ah, what can you do? Right? Where Williams' message, message was a message of hope. I actually tore out my flower beds and turned them into garden. So I had these like big terraces of gardens in front of my home, and I just did exactly what he said because he came at it from a science perspective, but also from a, this is our relationship with the earth. Like this is part of our responsibility as people on the earth to care. Take it and how do you care? Take it if you don't know what you're doing. Lots of us are raised in a culture where we think we do need to put fertilizer on everything. And. weed killer on everything. And then we expect the earth to grow nutrients with that way. And I didn't realize there was a way that was better, but also less expensive and also works better. The food, I mean, I could taste a big difference. It's way more pest resistant when you work with the soil and it's delicious and more nutritious. It was just amazing that Solo when you were doing that course is when I did a bootcamp out on that same farm, and that was how you and I connected.

Track 1: 41:53

Yeah.

dr-becca-whittaker_2_12-07-2023_101650: 41:53

But I love that you are now creating a business that reaches out to teach other people how to give them hope and to teach them and connect farmers with good information and people growing up and wanting to look into farming. With better information too, so that it can be possible. We are getting a huge outflux of farmers because it's just so expensive. The land is expensive, the equipment is expensive, the fertilizer's expensive. And I know William teaches a different method where you do not need the expensive equipment and you basically help the soil in a way that you're giving it its own natural fertilizer. I think it's just so valuable. Abigail, I. Because sometimes the people working so hard at it can't really market or share the message. And I think that's where William probably was. They live on a self-sustaining ranch. They are responsible for growing all of the food that the cattle workers and the families and everything take in that that live on ranch. So they have to be actively working, doing the food, and thank you for sharing the message of what they're doing so we can spread it to more people. That's the message that I feel whenever I think about you, Abigail, you're one of those people. That is a light for me. That reminds me there are other lights. Because we hear a lot about the danger of things or the, the problems and the negativity because that is what sells and because our brains pay attention to that. But that doesn't mean that's all there is. There are definitely people working to regenerate the soil. William is one of them. I don't know if any readers have, or any listeners have listened to Zach Bush, md He's another one that talks about it. There is a whole Movement of people that want to care take the earth. So we work with the earth well, we get nutrients in the food. Then we figure out how to process the food so that we can use it. Then our healthy bodies can think better and move better, and our emotional state is better and then we reach out to help others. It is a process of healing that is actively happening. So thank you, Abigail. And thank you for joining us today. So until next time, I get to run into you at some cool regenerative gardening thing. thank you for joining us, We'll talk soon. Bye.

44:21

Hey, I am so glad you were with us for that conversation. My takeaways would be the ingredients we use, how they are grown and how they are processed matters. What we take into our body matters. And when we do it one way or the other, these foods can either wreck our guts. or help build our guts with the bacterial culture, with breaking down the food, with helping our enzymes function, or with shutting our enzymes down. They can worsen autoimmune conditions by causing leaky gut and, um, the chaos that happens when our gut is not sealed very well. Or they can begin to heal autoimmune conditions by helping us digest and using those enzymes. So it's wonderful to remember that. And I love the resources she shared. If you want to know more, I have all of those resources linked in the show notes. Second would be her work with William DeMille. I find so fascinating. I love how she talked about really wanting to connect farmers, with more information and resources about how they can continue to farm and be able to afford it, how they can use practices to rehabilitate that soil and what that does for making. The plants more pest resistant, have more nutrient density. Um, I love that she is working to connect those pieces because there are a culture of people that are learning that science, incorporating that wisdom into caretaking of the earth. But sometimes it's a little bit difficult for farmers with boots on the ground to actually find it themselves when they are doing so much of the hard work. So that connection is wonderful. And the last takeaway would be a message of hope for me. We hear so much about the soil has no nutrients. The food isn't good for us. This company is poisoning the food supply chain. The next generation doesn't even know where their food comes from. And it can really take a hit on our hope for humanity, for the earth, for our health. And when I talk to people who are coming up in the ranks of experience and really trying to connect pieces and communities and information and. Purpose. It makes me feel so much hope, but to have that be happening in a younger generation is proof that there are the things happening that are not good for our planet or for our species or for the other species that are on this planet with us. But there. There are also people gathering together, movements, forming, people trying to make a difference. And this podcast is about being one of those people. So it was wonderful to remember that I am not alone and that neither are you and neither is she. So join us again next time. And we'll just keep building this community of hope and purpose and knowledge until then. Bye.