Meditation, Mindfulness, and Powerful Emotions: Less Suffering Required with Yael Shy

Meditation, Mindfulness, and Powerful Emotions, Less Suffering Required with Yael Shy

Enjoy a deep dive into mindfulness and emotional processing with Yael Shy, exploring how meditation can help us create more peace in our internal lives and to live more fully in the present moment. As the founder of Mindful NYU, the largest campus-based mindfulness initiative in the country, an author, speaker, and coach in the realm of meditation and mindfulness, she is more than equipped to teach and does so with a lot of understanding and perspective. 

She walks us through what learning meditation can REALLY look like, and the real work it takes and benefits we receive when we train our minds to pay attention. Her advice may be different than you think, and we relate false notions about meditation and mindfulness in general with some soulful insights into her favorite practices.

We discuss feeling our emotions without tumbling into them, the relationship between fear and desire, anger and patience, unpack a mindful relationship with technology and with each other as well. We discuss personal journeys of self-forgiveness and life in general. A fantastic conversation to guide you towards processing emotion, promoting self-forgiveness, and deepening understanding in relationships.

Yael’s mindfulness consulting website: https://www.mindfulnessconsulting.net/

Yeal’s book “What Now: Meditation for Your 20’s and Beyond” (great read.)

https://a.co/d/0Oc4xlO (amazon link)

Stolen Focus book, for more info on retaining or rebuilding your focus ability, even in a world full of tech  https://stolenfocusbook.com/

00:00 Introduction and Gratitude

00:16 The Impact of Reading and Learning

00:54 Personal Connections and Shared Experiences

02:15 The Power of Books and Personal Growth

03:40 Understanding the Challenges of Young People

08:42 The Role of Meditation in Personal Development

10:53 The Influence of Technology on Mindfulness

16:09 The Importance of Self-Love and Acceptance

20:51 The Struggle with Comparing Ourselves to Others

25:38 The Role of Mindfulness in Technology Use

29:42 The Power of Authenticity and Self-Understanding

43:38 Discussing Emotions and Their Impact

44:16 Understanding the Process of Emotional Repression

45:00 Exploring the Concept of Emotional Awareness

45:08 The Journey of Accepting and Understanding Anger

45:59 The Power of Recognizing and Addressing Emotions

46:16 The Role of Emotions in Decision Making

49:25 The Importance of Body Awareness in Emotional Processing

51:09 The Interplay of Fear and Desire

58:50 The Significance of Forgiveness in Emotional Healing

01:03:03 The Role of Patience in Dealing with Emotions

01:06:08 Understanding the Link Between Fear and Desire

01:07:59 The Power of Self-Love and Acceptance

01:09:47 The Impact of Emotions on Relationships

01:26:34 The Role of Mindfulness in Emotional Wellbeing

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome to the What Really Makes a Difference podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Becca Whittaker. I've been a doctor of natural health care for over 20 years and a professional speaker on health and vitality, but everything I thought I knew about health was tested when my own health hit a landslide and I became a very sick patient. I've learned that showing up for our own health and vitality is a step by step journey that we take for the rest of our lives. And this podcast is about sharing some of the things that really make a difference on that journey with you. So grab your explorer's hat while we get ready to check out today's topic. My incredible guest network and I will be sharing some practical tools, current science and ancient wisdom that we all need, no matter what stage we are at in our health and vitality. I've already got my hat on and my hand out, so let's dive in and we can all start walking each other home. Welcome to the show today. I am so glad you are here. Before we jump into the wonderful conversation that I'm so grateful to be able to share with you, just wanted to share a couple of things. First of all, for any of you who listened last week to Dr. Tom Michaud's conversation, Dr. Tom Michaud's conversation, I hope you have listened to it at least twice by now. Everyone I know who's listened once wants to listen again. If you missed that episode and you're interested in anything having to do with strength training, balance, athleticism, foot strength, just Do yourself a favor. Go back and check out that episode. In that episode, we talk about a device that Tom put a lot of science, research, and engineering into because he wanted to create a really useful tool for his patients, specifically his patients that wanted to improve their balance. or that we're runners or that we're having plantar fasciitis, all kinds of problems with the lower limb. He put a lot of thought and research into it. That device is called the Toe Pro. I have been using it faithfully and many others that I know have started to use it and we are all getting Wonderful results. I am getting a lot better feeling in my legs and just some of the neurologic implications are pretty cool. So if anyone was listening to that and is interested in the Topro since that last episode, we've got a discount code set up. So you can actually get 10 percent off of the Topro by using the code Dr. Becca at checkout. That's all in caps D R B E C C A. And you can find that at human locomotion. com. So for today, I am truly grateful to be able to share this conversation with you. I Was able to bring on to the podcast, none other than Yael Shai, and she is a fantastic teacher that I am just grateful I got to spend time with, let alone record and pick her brain. She is the founder and director of Mindful NYU. It is the biggest mindfulness campus based program in the country. She's also the senior director of the Center for Global and Spiritual Life at NYU. She is now the CEO of Mindfulness Consulting, LLC, which is a consulting group that can help you if you want more information or more coaching on mindfulness. meditation or the principles that she talks about in this conversation and also in her book. She's also the author of What Now? and it is a book about helping you in transitions of life. It's written specifically for people in their 20s and 30s but really it's for everyone beyond that age as well. The teachings in it are just Beautifully described and she relates them with her experiences and I just found it easy to read because it is so relatable and the thoughts are kind and intriguing and she shares a lot of information on the podcast. We talk about meditation and mindfulness, some of the common misconceptions people have that can make people quit or feel unsuccessful with meditation. And we talk a lot about feeling emotions without tumbling into a vortex of them. Interesting juxtaposition we discuss about fear and desire and anger and patience. She also says forgiveness is the opposite of forgetting. And I'm going to let her explain why that is true. This is an episode to listen to. So, over and over again, every time I hear her speak, I just feel some of those inner kind of tired and cracked parts of myself that start to remember healing. So I'm grateful for the time I have with her and I'm excited to share it with you. And without further ado, here's the A. L. I am I'm incredibly grateful to be here with you today, Yael. I feel like it is a blessing anyway to be with you because of what you teach and how you teach it, but a personal blessing for me in two parts. One, I don't know if you've ever read a book that touched you and that you wish you could tell the author thank you or discuss some things in detail and you know, when do you get to talk to the authors really? But your book, What Now? been just a wonderful guiding star for me and it's covered in notes. There's my chicken scratch all over the inside and there's where post it notes all over the, so I'm just grateful to be able to tell you thank you and to talk about some of these things more deeply. I feel very grateful to be here. I'm very grateful. Yay. And as you know, but the audience might not know, the reason I'm able to talk to you today is because of, of a shared, deep friendship, or for you family member that we have. So, ah, I was going to try to do this without crying, but that may or may not happen. One of my dearest friends, Jolie Kramer, is your aunt, and she's the one that put your book in my hands, and she has since passed now, but I have just felt her near me. Being proud of you and encouraging me as I was reading the book and I just wanted to share again my gratitude for you when I reached out and told you about our friendship and, and the kindness that you gave me by being willing to come on the show. So thank you. Oh, you're gonna get me too. She was just great. She was so funny and Kind and like, I know she's family, but she's, she was also kind of my friend, you know, just just a really one of a kind person. So I definitely feel her presence and bringing us together. Yeah, same. Okay, so your book is called What Now? And it's written about meditation and mindfulness and feeling emotions without letting them throw you down a vortex of emotion. Books like that are often written in a tone that is more friendly for people in their 40s and beyond. What I love about yours is it's written for transitions, and it's written for college age or 20s and 30s. And when I began to read it and thought of that, I thought, that, that's brilliant, because so many of the decisions we make right then affect the rest of our lives. But also not many people are talking to that age range. I have a son who is just about to go into college and is feeling every bit of the anxiety that you talk about being so prevalent. And I don't remember feeling that much anxiety. In fact, I was kind of naive as to what was coming up. I just figured if I did a great job, I'd figure out what I wanted to do and the money would come and of course I'd be safe and it would be fine. And then for me, life gave me hard knocks and taught me that, you know, sometimes it isn't that easy. So we kind of had different approaches and I haven't been sure how to be present for my son or for his friends. I think they Are more observant than I was and they're more aware of what is really out there and the transitions are scaring them. So I'm grateful you wrote to that age. Will you tell me a little bit more? Why you chose that age to write to and why you what you picked the format the way you did. Yeah, so I first started meditating when I was in my 20s when I was in college. Out of a. It was a total hurricane of suffering. I was having, you know, just a lot of pain and difficulty. Not that my story is, like, the most traumatic. There's certainly way more traumatic things that happen to young people. But just the kind of everyday traumas of experiencing loss, change, you know, parents getting divorced, relationship ending, and then just in the kind of world. Trauma of 9 11, which is what happened when I was in college. And you were very close to that area, right? Yes, exactly. I was in New York City. We had to, you know, there was all the evacuations happening. I was going to NYU at the time. And there was also just this kind of tremendous time of possibility and openness and anxiety about that possibility and questions like, I really want to find love. Is love real? It certainly doesn't look like it from the people in my family, and you know, I want to have a good career, but what does that even mean? I don't even know myself well enough, and so there's all of this hope and possibility at the same time as so much anxiety and change, and it happens that that's when I started meditating, but it also became my career and the people I work with, because I worked at NYU after I graduated. I, you know, went to college. Graduate school and then I came back and working with students every day, day in, day out, I saw that they were facing a lot of the same challenges I was facing. But to your point, with even more stressors since social, because of social media, because of all of the changes to the way that we receive information and are bombarded by information and all of our kind of addictions to phones. But. I didn't even have that at the time, and I felt plenty anxious. And so some of the story is as old as time, you know, like it's just a time of change for young people in their 20s and 30s. And some of it is additional new challenges and stressors that young people now are facing. And the research is horrible, unfortunately. Like the research says Gen Z is the loneliest class of people that are out there right now, like to serious, terrifying lengths of how lonely they are, how anxious they are, you know, higher levels of depression than all the other ages, age groups combined. So really concerning things for the young people. And at the same time, they're awesome. Like, I still teach at NYU. I still love working with this population. And I think That their, their minds are smart, like brilliant, like adults, but they don't have the layers of defense and jadedness that I think older adults have, that we all kind of grow as we get older. So there's just like this real Willingness to get in there, to, to change their life, to move in new directions, to challenge their thinking, but also their adults, because like, I've worked with some high schoolers or younger kids and I That is not my population. I really struggle with them. So that's why I love, I love working and teaching to that, to the 20s and 30s crowd. I love that you're saying what you are about that age. Because there's so much talk about how they are lazy and they won't work and they won't, what I have found in the, in the children I've known directly. Which, you know, it's just my slice of the world. But, The, the teens and the early twenties age people that I'm seeing right now are exactly as you described. I think they just, they seem more hesitant going out in the world, but for me it's because they, they seem more observant, more anxious, and more aware. But also fully capable of doing the, the inner work if they know what inner work to do. But if you think you want to calm down and you look on Instagram, And try to figure out how to calm down through the advice given there. I mean, that doesn't work for me either. So having a vehicle to teach some of these really complicated topics with really relatable stories, I think is a huge gift. I came across meditation and started earnestly meditating when I was 15. But that was because I was taking martial arts. It was a Japanese style called ninjutsu. And the meditation was basically a vehicle for us to get in tune with our inner power. We were learning energy work. We were learning how to control our minds. And then from the space of controlling our minds, move out into working with elemental things. And I witnessed some amazing things when people would get in a meditative space and be able to do things like become heavier. than they were or become lighter than they were. Just some neat stuff. But it was about controlling your mind, right? It was about almost using meditation as a tool or as to make your mind another weapon. Does that make sense? Yes. I used it that way but it was a pressure thing for me and I've heard many other people talk about meditation that have started it. And it just makes them feel bad about themselves or worse about their mind. Like, okay, my sister, I remember one time said, I know I'm supposed to make my mind a whiteboard, but there is always something on the whiteboard. Like it just makes me feel like I'm bad at that even more. And I, I did meditation and preparing for my first child. I was doing hypnobirthing and to kind of make it so the pain wasn't as much, but then when the pain was still present and I couldn't turn it into pressure, I felt again like a failure. So you talk about in your book, and I've heard you talk about an interview too, saying one of the Worst things we do for meditation is promote the idea that someone who meditates is this like blissed out woman in yoga clothes that has no worries or a monk in the mountains and they can do it because they are alone and not in relationships. I love your take on meditation. So with the background of what I have seen in meditation or heard, how can you describe to me what is your way of looking at meditation? What is the point of meditation? And why would we do it? Really good question. And I, like, like many people like this, I think you said your sister, someone that you're describing of like, I can't make my thoughts go away. I also felt that way when I started, and it was horrible. Like, first I found it just like insanely boring, and I just kept falling asleep. And I didn't want to do any more of it. Found like, okay, you know, I was thrust into this. I, I saw that when I did meditate, like, oh my gosh, amazing things started happening, but the process was so brutal that I never wanted to do it. Like, it was just like, stop thinking, stop thinking, push away the thoughts. Slash the thoughts with a machete, like that's the, the images that were going in my mind, like try and get rid of them, get clear. And it was so violent and not fun. Like you said, total feelings of failure, like I'm a bad meditator, this just must not be for me. Oh, but there's like these good things that come with it. Ah, like just that horrible feeling of, of, about it. So, you know. What my number one message that I want to get across to people, that I really want people to hear is like that is not the point to not, to not think, to stop your thoughts, to have like the whiteboard. Even give another thought to the whiteboard. Like, that is not how Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Like, that's not the idea, that's not the point to quiet all thoughts. Our thoughts, our mind thinks just like our heart beats. It's like, what it does. It is what its function is. So, it would be crazy to be like, let's stop the heart beating. You know, we wouldn't want that. Same thing, we don't need to stop our minds from thinking. The game of it, the, the fun of it, is that in order to really come to see life as it's happening, in order to see the world, to wake up in our life and not be constantly rehashing things that have happened, or constantly re rehearsing things that might never happen, that's the past and the future, We need to, in some way, shape, or form, unblend ourselves from our thoughts. Because right now, normally, most people, nearly all people, all the time, are living inside of your thoughts. So that every thought you have, you kind of entertain it, and you're in it, and you go down the roads of it. And when, when you live life that way, you miss life. The only thing that sometimes cracks you out of that non stop strain of thinking are big things, you know, like big fear, like big frights or big moments of like radical awe. Those can get us out of our thoughts, like, you know, I don't know, big things. But, that's not how we have to live. We could shift that equation and live more of our time. In life, as it's happening, present to what is unfolding and coming up on a, on a regular basis and then sometimes using our thoughts because they're there and, you know, they're useful. So, it's The point of meditation is kind of shifting the balance there, not getting rid of the thoughts, but kind of shifting the amount of time that we live our life in our thoughts versus the amount of time we live our life in our life. Yeah. With things as they're coming up. Oh, that's beautifully said, beautifully said. I think a line I wrote down from your book is that in meditation we are training our Mind to pay attention to the present moment. What are some favorite practices that you do? This is coming from, I have heard other people teach and I have tried also that when I am meditating now, I am focusing on trying to be kind to myself. If I notice that I have Checked out and started planning a dinner or rehearsing this next thing or whatever and labeled the thought as, oh, planning ahead or, oh, Frustrated, or, oh, relationship, or, like, just label it and let it move past. Sometimes my mind gets frustrated with that, or my inner self gets frustrated with that, like, yes, I am aware that I can't focus, and yes, I am aware that I think about this relationship 2, 500 times a day! Like, some, I know, myself and some other people sometimes struggle with, what actually is the practice? Just paying attention to your breath in. or breath out. My mind gets bored quickly. What are some of your advice for people that that are starting to meditate or that have been meditating for a while but haven't found as much of that, as much of the benefits? What's a kind or some of the kind practices you would suggest? Yes, so such a good question. So I have, I have two favorites. The first one is what I do when I really need to like create a little bit of space in the mind. Because like you said, like you're, you're obsessively or you're in a thought loop and it's like non stop. And I need to kind of like get some distance from all of those like thoughts. So for those moments. I do, that's, that what you're talking about, an anchoring practice, something that like where I find an anchor in the body or a place, a point of attention, and I do keep bringing my attention back there, but how I've shifted from where I started was when I started, as I mentioned, I used to like notice I was thinking and then like hack at it with a knife or something. Yeah. So now, I'm trying, in the way that you're describing, to bring more kindness to that. I like to think about the, I like to imagine the thoughts are like children. And I'm the teacher. And they're coming into the classroom, and I'm taking their attendance. So I like imagine that I'm putting my hand on their little heads, and I'm like, oh, future thinking is here. And I tap that one on the head. And he comes in, maybe stays for a little bit, maybe leaves. But I'm kind of resting back with my point of, point of focus to just build some of that present moment awareness. And then in comes like obsessive thought about relationships. Okay, here's obsessive thought about relationship, might come in, I come back to that point of anchor. Some people can't stand the breath. When I first started, the breath was really agitating to me, it wasn't calming or relaxing. So you can use the breath as your anchor, but you can also use just kind of like the feeling of your body in the seat or your feet against the floor. Again, just to build a little bit of that space in, to feel a little bit of that presence. And it's not, the point is not to be a good breather, you know, or a good sitter. The point is to just find that space. spaciousness in the moment to just be there with what is there, with all the little children in your mind, like that is actually the point. So it's not a failure. When you notice the thoughts coming through, it's actually the point you're building that sense of awareness around it. Oh, I love how you explained that because truthfully, if I can think of something that I could gift myself or so many other people, I know it would be a little. space in your mind and learning to be with what is instead of I feel like in our culture we a are barraged by information either self inflicted or even if it's not self inflicted there's just thoughts and analytical things coming in all the time all the time so extra space is great but also To learn to treat that with kindness, the kindness of the presence of what is, I feel like with tech, which we'll talk about later, or so many other things, we can start to get into what is, and if it's uncomfortable, or even if it's great and we're worried the great might not last, then it's a strong, it's easy to step out of what is. Easy. If we're feeling uncomfortable, we can look up something else to make it go away. And from my experience in life and in illness recovery and in parenting and in being a doctor, truthfully, the present moment is where we have all of the power and all of the decision making. It's where we learn how to love ourselves, which is the well we can pull from to love other people truly. And learning how to welcome in those, I love how you talk about them little children, but how to welcome in the little children that are present. helps us in real time when we're faced with someone else who has things coming in their lives that maybe aren't that pleasant. If I don't know how to handle or have patience with my own anxiety, I know it is triple hard to have patience with my son's anxiety, for example. I feel like it is the learning grounds, but only if we do it kindly. You say something later on in the book that said, each time I return to myself in meditation. I realized I had sent a message to myself that I was worth returning to. And I think, wow, if we can be a teacher with those children, or if we can understand like, Oh, I went away. Oh, I'm coming back kindly. If we learn how to welcome ourselves back into our lives kindly, I think that helps us be able to love anyone else that we come across with a lot more compassion. Ah, that's so beautiful. My friend Lodro Rinsler says that like, he teaches this practice where instead of like the little children metaphor or the whiteboard metaphor, what he uses sometimes is when he realizes he's lost in thought and he brings himself back, he says, I love you. Like, just, I love you, like, I'm returning back to you, like, it sounds so silly, but that's the underlying thing we're trying to, like, really teach ourselves. This is a practice, like you said, of real self love. I used to think I had, like, high self esteem. I felt good, you know, like, just as a kid, but the one thing that this meditation has really taught me was, like, Wow, I speak to myself more, more in the, I used to more than I do now, but like those, those voices inside that are so mean, so cruel to ourselves, like, I think I didn't, I wasn't even aware of it until I started being in quiet and listening to them being like, ouch. Painful. Yeah, and I think that's part of why a lot of people don't like to meditate. It's like great Now I know what's happening inside my head and really the last three years, so I had a Massive illness that meant I had a lot of time on my own. I was visually and auditory very sensitive so I would just have to lay by myself in my bed, which would have Which was not easy for me, but that was when I started to learn my inner voices. I have like a mean girl, like a mean middle school, early high school, mean girl in my head, constantly judging myself and, and evaluating my effect on the world from a really, I can't believe you did that sort of place, but learning that voice was there, even though it was very uncomfortable to hear at first. It just helped me to be able to at least let it be present where I knew what was happening instead of letting that mean girl voice run my life. It's like, yes, now I know it's there, which is uncomfortable. That's a whole lot better than being directed by it and not having any idea I'm being directed by it. Right, right. Yeah. I think that's right. I, I felt that way too, like so clearly, like you're ruining the world, like you don't deserve anything. It's And what I found interestingly is like, so step one, realize that voice is not God, like that voice is not the truth of who things, of who I am, or it doesn't know the truth of me. All of that, that, that's like step one in the journey, I think. And then, when I actually turn towards it, And I really like talk to it, which is part of, you know, my practice. And I do this with clients too, like, Well, what, where, who, what is this? Who is this? Why have I come to be? Why? What is the point of talking to myself this way? Why are you here? Yes, exactly. And so often, 99 percent of the time, This, I had maybe 100 percent of the time, this voice turns out that it's like really, it's first of all very young, it got like formed very young, and it's often, I mean, it, it wants to help us. Yeah. There's something it really wants for us, like it's trying in some. twisted way to try and help us. And so it becomes about like really understanding why did it get formed that way? What is it scared of? What does it want for us? And when you kind of tease that apart, it's so much less, it's like the bully, the schoolyard bully, when you like look in its eyes, it's just. Horrified. Yep. All it wants is, like, love, and this is, like, the best way it figured out to try and get it. Yeah. And then it just, like, defangs that monster so much, and it's so healing. My mean girl I discovered when I finally was, like, this is a really mean voice, like. Why are you here? What are you, what are you? And it was, you, you speak in your book about Larepa facing the demons in the cave, which we'll talk about when we get to fear. But I, I finally looked at my mean girl, finally, and just asked with curiosity, not tried to shove her down or judge myself that I have a mean girl in my head or whatever. When I finally asked why she was there. She was there fully for protection. She wanted me to be paying attention to all of these things so that I could be accepted. So that I could be safe. And the more that I inquired of her, she came into fruition at a time when I had a lot of problems happening in other places in my life. And I deeply felt I needed to be accepted by my friend group. And it was middle school and you know, everybody's. In their own stuff in middle school. So, uh, but I learned it was a deep trying to protect me. And as I then, as adult Becca, could see that and could see this scared middle school girl, I knew how I could talk to her now and love her and explain about middle school and explain about what traumatic things I was in and just hold her like I would if she was my child or my friend's child, and that's made it much easier. So when she comes up, I know why she, I know why she's there. I'm like, oh, hello. So beautiful. And that I know is much more common with me, but that didn't come until I actually realized she was talking and, and then decided to be kind. So it is really beautiful. How would you explain that meditation is the same or different than mindfulness? Because I know mindfulness is a big buzzword. And I'm happy about that actually, I'm happy there's wonderful buzzwords, but it also does mean sometimes it loses some of its meaning when it just gets a buzz. You say in your book that mindfulness adds vibrancy to our lives and the thinking hole does not. So can you explain what you mean by vibrancy and the thinking hole? Got it, got it. Yes. So mindfulness as a term is a translation of a Uh, ancient Pali term that's called the, it comes from a set of old Buddhist writings called the Satipatthana Sutra, which is, it's a sutra, a set of texts that talk about inhabiting the body and the mind fully. So, meditation can be a whole lot of things, but how we tend to think about it is like it's a practice, how I teach it anyway, from this Buddhist lineage, it's that a, it's a practice of returning in, just to the, to the present moment again and again in a kind of a formal way. Like what we talked about. You bring your attention back, your attention wanders, you come back and inhabit the present moment in this kind of formal practice. Mindfulness is an approach to everyday life as you're living it by trying to inhabit that moment, inhabit what you're doing as you're doing it. So that can be drinking a glass of water. And really trying to be with the sensations of drinking a glass of water, your hand on the glass, the water as you're drinking it, feeling it fill your stomach. You know, it can be also a conversation you have with someone where you're fully in your body and your ears are listening and you're, you know, tracking them and you're also watching your own response. So mindfulness is that inhabiting of our body as we are moving through the world. And that gets a lot more complicated, it gets more, but that's like the very rudimentary description, I would say. John Kabat Zinn, who did a lot of, he sort of popularized the term mindfulness. I think he describes it as being present on purpose, non judgmentally. Something like that. Interesting. So the non judgmentally observing what is happening without jumping really fast to label it good or bad or whatever. Exactly. Right. The best lesson in mindfulness I ever had was chocolate. I mean, really. If you eat chocolate fast because you're stressed and you're not paying attention or whatever, versus when you put a piece of chocolate that is small in your mouth and really, really try to taste it or feel it. It's an entirely different experience. And I've realized that's the same with a lot of things. So in my illness, I've experienced a lot of food sensitivities and sensitivity to sugar or other stuff, which I think a lot of people have. And what I have learned is if I'm going to eat something that maybe isn't super good for me, but I really want it. If I have a small piece and I pay attention to what I am doing, I don't need more than that. I don't even want more than that. Because I can feel what's happening in my body, but I also got the satisfaction. So it's like, I don't have to shove two cinnamon rolls in my mouth while I'm having a stressful conversation and just trying to make it go away with the sweets. I'm like, why do I want the cinnamon roll? And if it's like, okay, no I do want it, but I, let's start, let's just have a small piece. And really pay attention. That's enough, and I feel better than if I had pounded two cinnamon rolls in. I feel much better, or better with one piece of chocolate, not a whole bar. Yes, and this goes to that, that other thing that I, I wanted to get back to, so I'm glad we're getting back to, about how do you make meditation be less painful? Horrible. Yeah. Always a good topic. This is another really amazing, delightful, sensory rich practice of meditation, which is sinking into your senses with chocolate, with having like a cup of tea or coffee and really tasting it. Um, noticing like your clothing, like I'm wearing a warm sweater right now and it's cold outside and just like really feeling the warmth that's there. So, you become, you begin to notice that your senses are like this kind of wonderland of powerful ways to be in the present moment. So it doesn't have to be this austere, you know, monk like thing of like, get rid of all the pleasure and just stay with your breath. You can be meditating, you can be fully present in your senses. The tricky part. is that sometimes when we pay attention to the senses or to the breath or to anything in the present moment, I think you mentioned this, like sometimes there is also pain there. Either physical pain or emotional pain. And you can't kind of turn one off. It would be nice if we could just feel the good stuff but not the bad stuff. What we can do is kind of open up to all of it and hold all of it and stop resisting either the pain or the pleasure. And when we stop that resistance and just relax, like my shoulders right now are just like dropping when I say that, then it's, it's like life just opens up way bigger. Yeah, because we've been like unconsciously screening out the bad stuff and then also screening out the good stuff. Yeah, that leads right into two things I really want to talk about. So one, I loved your section on mindfulness and tech. And I'm wondering if we can touch on that a bit because I think the two things that struck me the most were one, um, Mindfully paying attention to when you reach for your phone. If you're trying to get out of an uncomfortable emotion, because though it can help distract us from the uncomfortable emotion, you also talk about how it can take away the highs too. Like if we aren't willing to fill the lows, we aren't going to be able to fill as much of the highs. Can you explain more about that and how we can tune in? How we can tune into our technology, but in a mindful way, and what the purpose of that would even be, or the effect. It is so hard, personally. This is like the edge of practice for me, because billions of dollars are spent to try to effectively hook into our attention. Get us kind of addicted and hooked. And it's like, it's truly like a very powerful drug. And it's not accidental. Like, they spent billions on tons of research to figure out how to do this. So, of course, that's how we, most of us are with our technology and social media. So the first thing is just realize it's not your fault, you're not doing anything wrong, this is how the system is operating. So it takes a lot of intentionality and thoughtfulness and will in order to claim your life back. Because for me, I just notice, like, I don't know if you have this on your phone, but on my phone it tells you, like, I know five hours of your day were spent on technology today. I'm really glad for that. I don't have it on my phone, but I wish it was like prominent on all of my teenager's phones. It's nauseating. It's a horrible feeling because you're like, how much of that brought me joy, brought me feelings of connection, brought me important news that I wanted to hear and some of it does. It's not like it's all nothingness, you know, like some of it does do those things, but so much of it feels directly like a waste of time or like a place I don't want to be spending my precious life. Right. So, um, The best that I have to offer is to really try and become, kind of like you said with the cinnamon rolls, but with the phone and technology. If you go in being like, I'm going to try here, I'm going to set a timer for how long I am going to be on this, or, you know, I'm going to somehow take it off your home screen or delete it from your phone so that you have to log in to get there. Put in any safeguards you have, because we're not, we are all alcoholics at the bar, you know, like, there is not a force of will that most of us have that's strong enough to resist this. So you have to really try. And believe in it enough to be like, I need to build a life that's outside of my phone. And, and really implement it. And then, when you partake, the same way of a cinnamon roll, or the same way of like, an alcoholic drink, if you're not an actual alcoholic. And, You know, you just have to really be aware as much as you can. Build awareness of why you're reaching for it. What's underneath? What do you really want? When you get underneath just that addictive energy, like, maybe you want connection with somebody. Maybe you're lonely. Or maybe you want, you know, something bright and beautiful to like stimulate your senses. And so, just trying to kind of get at the real deeper thing you want and then be like, oh, that's a beautiful thing to want. Can I get this somewhere else? That's not gonna suck me dry in the end. Beautiful. Have you listened to the book Stolen Focus or heard of it? I'm trying to remember the name of it. I have heard of it. I have not read it, but I've heard of it. We started listening to it as a family when we were driving one time and I expected and received moans of discontent at first, but then it was so helpful that I have three teenagers and they, two of them at least, started listening really intently and it's now on our kind of family reading list that, that of, of books that we want everyone to come down. He talks about That very thing. So if anyone's wanting follow up attention, you also talk about how it really gets to our comparing mind. And I loved a story that you told. Well, first you, just to quote you, you said, to notice the comparing mind, something that helped you was as you started to feel that sort of scrolling ick that happens when we're looking at other people's pretty, pretty filtered lives. Yes. You say you'd started telling yourself, what if I am okay and enough right now? And what if the only standard I have to live up to is my deepest, most authentic self? I thought that was so beautiful. A practice that I have been doing for the last few years that really started to help was I have a mentor named Ernest Morrow. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he teaches very similar Zen and Buddhist teachings as you do. And the phrase is, my name is Becca. And life is making me happen. And that's what I return to multiple times a day when I can feel that I'm trying to be like someone else. Or I can feel that I have to do better in order to be loved or that I feel like I need to be more dot dot dot. I return to, my name is Becca. Life is making me happen. This, a lot of the wonderful things that happen are not because I went out and made them happen anyway. Be right here. And I, I loved you pointed that out with, with different words, but the same effect. Like, what if I am my most authentic self, then what happens? I thought that was so beautiful. I wonder Oh, thank you. I love that line. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder, Oh, well, I guess I was going to ask you to explain more, but I guess just reading the sentence you said explains a lot that so much of our comparing to others is what can take us down on tech. It's the time wasted. Where it turns into watching other people live their life instead of living our own. And then comparing. You tell a story, and forgive me, I might not say this correctly, but it was about a rabbi named Zusha. Yeah, which is my son's name actually. That's so cool! I'm wondering if you would share what he said about when he was nearing the end of his life. If you remember the story. Of course, yeah. It's one of my favorites. So he's nearing the end of his life, and he's on his deathbed, and he's crying, and his, his students say, why are you crying? Like, you're so pious, like, you've definitely got a place in the world to come, and you've done so much good in your life, and he says, I'm crying because, you know, when I die, I think the Divine One, God, is not gonna ask me, why weren't you more like Abraham, you know, this towering figure? Why weren't you more like Moses, this other, you know, historic prophet? God's gonna ask me, why weren't you more like Zusha? Which was his own name. And so I love that idea of like, how could we be the most Yeah. L or the most Becca. Mm-Hmm that we can be like nobody else, no matter how great they are. Like that's not our charge. Our charge is to be the most ourselves. That deep, deep authenticity. Oh, I know life happens as it happens, but don't you sometimes wish you could go back to like your early middle school self and insert that in as an option. Save 30 years of suffering. More like ourselves. I really would love to talk about what you say about specific emotions because I think your take on it was so beautiful. So, if we can touch on a bit of how you come to emotions, then I'll ask you specifically about some of them. Individually. So, you talk about a process called RAIN, which is an acronym that I know, was it Tara Brock? Is that who you heard? Yes. She's been the one that's most kind of spread this teaching around. It was originally developed by another teacher named Michelle McDonald. Oh, okay. I liked how you talk about it because I, for a long time, definitely repressed certain emotions and they were ones that felt scary to me to either feel. Just because they were big and I didn't know what to do with them to make them go away. Or, that they were big and I thought they would make me do something. Like, I was very I was very uncomfortable with being afraid that came from martial arts. I didn't want to appear weak and I was very uncomfortable with feeling anger of any sort cause I thought that made you do stupid painful things to people. So cracking me open to the realization that I actually was feeling those things a, I, I hadn't fully repressed them. They were just running me from the inside without me knowing rip. I love how you taught how to recognize that we are filling them. And then, not to tumble in them. I had to learn that I was safe to feel anger without turning into a rage monster before I was able to let myself feel the anger and listen more deeply to the messages. So, the RAIN acronym, I know the first was RECOGNIZE, I thought it was It's great, the story you shared about one of your teachers admitting that before he knew how to feel emotions, he felt every sensation as hunger. Yes. And I know, I know what that, I know what that feels like. I would end up in the pantry and not know that I was eating yet when I had already started eating and not even know why I was eating. I wasn't hungry. And it turns out I hit the pantry when I'm stressed or when I need something sweet. So if I'm lonely or I hit it because I was. upset or angry and was trying to like eat my words back down my throat. So when you, when you first said, well, first recognize you're angry, that might sound ridiculous to some people, but I was an expert at suppressing from my conscious mind that I was angry. So can you talk more about that acronym and, you know, starting with the R? Yeah. Yeah. I think you, you nailed it. It's that most of the time when we feel, Even the very inkling, the very beginning of a strong or powerful emotion, it, we either act out on it, like immediately, like let's say the emotion is desire, like I really want something, then we immediately try and go get it, you know, to try and in a sense get rid of it, get rid of the feeling. Or, we, Smoosh it down deep. And we're like, nope, that's not allowed. But we are very bad at smooshing things down and getting rid of them. So it comes bubbling up. Either it comes up and yelling at someone or it comes up in like this kind of never ending process of like numbing ourselves so that we don't keep feeling it. So it's a very non functioning system. But we all do it with the emotions that are unpleasant, or that we've just been taught many times, like, that is not okay to feel. And that varies depending on the identity of the person, who your parents were, and what messages you got. But, but we all have different emotions that are like, that we've been taught or picked up that we're not okay to feel. So yes, the step one is to be like, Feeling something. Sometimes I'll be like three steps down the road doing something like erratic or crazy or, you know, just like making some kind of mistake until I'm like, wait a minute, I'm sad. Or like I'm angry or I'm anxious. It's just kind of like a reverse engineering back to the feeling. That's the step one. I've learned that's incredibly helpful. in limiting my regret or guilt when I'm talking to my children. Because the uncomfortable truth is that as a parent, and I certainly know I was not immune to it, if something else is happening in adulting land, with relationships or jobs or whatever, and you start to feel powerless, sometimes the tendency is to try and get power somewhere. And so, I learned if I was going up to check on their rooms, but I already knew I was going to be upset about their rooms before I even saw the rooms. When I learned this work, I finally, my, I, and I, I do it by listening to my body. If my body feels tense, and my body feels like it's gearing up, like putting on armor, gratefully, I have to climb the stairs to get to some of their rooms, and I will stop on the stairs and think, What is really happening here? Like, what am I feeling? And if what I am feeling is a deep sadness, or an anger about something else, I literally don't let myself go over to their rooms until I am the one back in front. And that, that happens when I have actually seen what's happened, when I've held it deeply, when I've let myself feel and recognize it as if I am holding a little girl that is feeling that. And I think without the body awareness, I would be kind of sunk because my body knows before my brain will, my brain would much rather just yell about a room. But my body knows that is not the issue. Yeah, my teacher, one of my teachers, Tia Strozer, used to say that, like, the mind is horrible at working with emotions. Like, it's very good at solving math problems. Or, you know, Doing some kind of analytics. It is abysmally bad at working with emotions, and so we're giving it, most of us, this job that it's bad at. All it wants to do is just be like, like, circular thoughts, or like, get rid of this, you know? But the body, it knows emotions. That's the body's language. It can metabolize emotions and work with them. And so the task is exactly what you're saying, to be like, Oh, wait a minute. I'm noticing something in my body being ding, ding, ding. I have an emotion. Yeah, the emotion is here. Even if you can't exactly name what the emotion is, I have a lot of clients that You know, especially if they've been very separated from their body for a long time, out of trauma, or just certain kind of educations, then they can't always name what it is they're feeling. But they know they're feeling something. And so just to say like, Okay, something's happening. There's something happening that's causing some discomfort. And like, that recognizing can be just naming that for yourself. I like that, that take on it that you don't have to know. So another sister of mine asked me a question months ago because I, I was very disconnected from my body and during my period of laying there staring at the ceiling, ended up becoming very in tune with my body. But I, I sink into my body to ask myself what is really happening right now? But she pointed out when I asked that question, like I know I feel tension or I know, I know things are stuck in my body, but I don't know what they are. She said how, I mean that, to her felt a little powerless because she's like, How do you tune in with your body? I'm like, I don't know, I ask and then I, it just comes up. I don't know how it works for other people. So if, so you're saying if, if you are unsure as you begin, or if the answers don't come easily, just saying you're feeling something in your body and there is an emotion at play in this space can be enough. Yes. That's the R. But then we have the pathway with the rest of the acronyms. Let's go for the acronym. What's A? Okay. So begin by saying something's happening or anger is here. You know, whatever, whichever one. And I like to say anger or sadness or something is here rather than I am angry. Because again, it builds a little bit of space. Because if something is here, it could mean something else is here, too. It could mean that thing is going to not be here in a few minutes. It just kind of de identifies us with the feeling where we otherwise say, I'm angry. I think that's one of the most powerful things I've learned, honestly. De identify. It's crazy that in English we do say, I am. I mean, I am is such a powerful phrase, and I am angry is like, oh, well. Becca left, and now there's just Monster. Exactly, which it can feel sometimes. Yeah, that's been one of my most helpful things, with things like failure. And I, I, I call it, like, oh, hello, failure. Hello, fear. Right. It helps. Okay, so recognizing that. Right. It's here. And it's here. It's hanging out here. And then is my favorite. Um, not to play favorites, but I love this part of the acronym, which is the A, which is stands for allow. That is the action of softening the resistance to the feeling. So that might mean physically in the body, like if you're all clenched up around the emotion, which we do naturally, to just like let those shoulders drop or soften the jaw. And it might also just mean like on a emotional level, on an interior level, can you bring a sense of laying down the weapons against this feeling? Because guess what? It's here. It's, it's, it doesn't change, it just adds additional suffering to the pain when we resist it, or when we fight it. So that's the A, just releasing that extra fight. The I stands for investigate, and that's a very soft, gentle, that's what you, sounds like you were doing when you were in your bed. Asking the question, like, where do I feel this in the body? Where exactly do I feel this? What do I feel? Is it like a pulling? Is it a movement? Does it have a color associated with it? Is it a weight? Is it a lightness? You know, and it's just kind of like a, like you're kind of on a little investigative journey, but not analytical investigation. We're talking about a body based investigation to just find out a little bit more about this feeling that we're having. A good question for the eye that I like to use is, okay, so I'm feeling angry, or I'm feeling like, blah, you know, whatever it is that you're feeling. And then the question is, okay, A, let's allow it. It's happening. Let's soften the resistance. And then the I is, how do I know? How do I know I'm feeling this way? How do I know I'm feeling anxious or blah? Like, what are the bottom signals that are sending something to my brain telling me I'm feeling this way? We're trying to get, reverse engineer the feeling so that we can get to its place in the body. And the N, there's two different kinds of N. So, the original N was non identification. So that's exactly what we're talking about when we say anger is here. It's just the releasing this idea that this is me. It's just that softening around it. But, Tara Brock teaches that when she taught that as the N, that non identification, that it kind of sometimes turns into a little bit of a pushing away. Mm hmm. Like, it's not me, and also, and it's not me, it's not me, like, no thanks. Yeah. And it's kind of like a very subtle, like, repression. Right. So she also teaches a different N, which is nourish. Mm hmm. Which is basically asking the question, when I feel this way, what can I do? What can I do for myself? So, it's taking as a given, we're feeling something right now, but it's asking almost like a self care question. Like, oh, maybe it would be nice to just put my hand on my heart. Or it would be nice to get a drink of water or to move my body. And it's just that, like, extra loving thing for when we're feeling a way just to take care of ourselves. You know, I think one of the things that encouraged me to keep trying. And still encourages me to keep trying in the journey of being, of allowing my emotions, which is not always uncomfortable or sitting to meditate, which is not always comfortable. It is being around people who have done some of that work and being present with them when I am having real things happen. When there's cause for sincere sadness. Or sincere fear, or when there's cause for that, and that what I am is okay with them. Because they've done their work. I can feel the presence when I'm in someone that does that. And it also encourages me to do that within myself so I can be that person for other people, like my children or my friends. Because that nourishing stage, I think that's the whole point. Is that when we have asked something and we see, like I did, that middle school girl that is scared. Or if we see someone else that is hurt, you know, in our mind or start to understand, Oh, this is why I am sad. I mean, I have a little girl, the age of when mine appeared. And as a person who loves her, if she was sad about something or. Afraid of something. I am not going to go like, stop it, stop, stop talking, stop doing that. You shouldn't feel that way. You shouldn't talk that way. You shouldn't even be that way. Like, and that's what I was doing with my own emotions. And when I realized recognizing them and allowing them was actually leading to nourishing them. I think that's how we learn to nourish ourselves. That nourishing point has been the whole point. That's when it actually begins to get better, right? I was shoving emotions away because I didn't know how to handle them or what to do with them. And this teaching, I think you encapsulate so beautifully is, this is what, this is what we do with them. As we ultimately get to that place where they don't have to scream as loudly at us because we will pay attention when they talk. And it will turn into a Experience with a lot more love than brutality. I mean, I don't want to be in the house with someone who is talking to my little girl like that. Mama bear would come out, but I was talking to myself like that all the time. And recognizing that we can nourish ourselves better than anyone else could anyway, because we're ultimately looking for our own love and our own worth. I think, oh, this, this is the point, is learning what, what to do with them. Instead of just yelling about them or making them go away. Beautiful. And that's, that's sort of the answer to your sister. You know, that question of like, well, okay, I see it now. What? This is the what? Like this is the path of healing right there. Beautiful. I know we're nearing the end, but I was wondering if you could give us some insights on a few specific emotions. So you talk about fear. And desire being connected. So, in the book, people can look for more information, but you talk about the difference between fear and anxiety. So fear would be a survival based, actual useful tool. I've learned I was afraid to be afraid. Because I thought it would lock me up. But I've learned as I've gone into my fear, my fear is always right. If I'm afraid of something, there is a reason. Anxiety, on the other hand, you say, Is basically what we do to try and assert a little control over something that we don't have control over, but it's a false sense of control. Right. So I love you talk about that. I point readers to that direction because it was beautiful. But what I'm hoping you can talk about is the link between fear and desire. I have never heard it taught the way you do, and I love it. So what is the link between fear and desire? I'm so glad you like it because this is the topic of my next book that I'm working on right now. So, that's a good sign. I first kind of became aware of this from a book by a Buddhist psychologist, psychiatrist named Mark Epstein. And he wrote, very casually, like just almost like a throwaway line, this one line that said, the opposite of Fear is not calmness or the opposite of anxiety is not calmness, it's desire and had to kind of like parse that through and work that through for a long time and where, how I understand it and something that it's been very exciting for me. Is this the. that when we look, when we feel anxious, we're looking towards an uncertain future. And like you said, tried, trying to kind of kind of control it. And by trying to control it, we're trying to kind of make up as many scenarios as we can of like horrible things that might happen. The mind just like spins us these horrible stories. And then we are living inside of those horrible stories. As if they're going to come true in a sense of being like, Okay, well then I won't be surprised by it. Okay, well then I have to like plan for it so that it doesn't come up and surprise me. And that's how we're approaching the uncertain future. Desire is underneath every single anxiety. Every time you look around your life for an anxiety and you go underneath it, there is an attendant desire. For instance Let's say you are anxious about like your child and like, are they doing okay? Are they suffer? Are they gonna suffer? Beautiful? An anxiety to have, you know, because it's connected, because underneath it is a desire for your child to be well, yeah. Like a, a deep desire for your child to be. Well, if you're anxious about a, a job interview, like really worried about it. Okay? What you really want is. It's this, either the job interview to go well and you to get the job or you just want to like do your best and feel your best. So if we then look underneath at each one and we flesh out what that desire is and we shift into the desire rather than the anxiety, we have a totally different experience. And interestingly, it's a circle to make a big circle. My aunt Jolie, who is our connection, is one of the main people that taught me this connection because it was around an election and I really, really wanted someone to win and the other person not to win and I told her like, I'm, I'm like really want this person to win but like I'm trying to keep my hopes, not get my hopes up, I'm trying to keep my hopes low and like not get, not get too excited or not get too hopeful. And she was like Has that ever in your life worked to not get your hopes up? Just curious. And I was like, no, I guess it never does. I always still end up getting my hopes up. I feel anxious the whole time I'm waiting until I know what the answer is, if I get the thing I want. And then, if I don't get the thing I want, I'm always disappointed, no matter how long I tried to not get my hopes up. And the truth is, that whole interim time, I was like a wreck. I was constricted and anxious, because that's the feeling that anxiety brings. What my Aunt Jolie taught me is, she's like, What if you could actually enjoy the time between what you know what's going to happen and what you want to have happen, And, bye. Imagining what would it feel like if that thing happened. So in the case of the election, like, what would I, what would it feel like if this person who I wanted to win would win? It would feel like such a relief. It would feel so hopeful, like things could possibly change in the world. It would feel like safety. And so, like, in the interim time, I could actually live in some of that feeling rather than living in the constriction and the fear. And so I tried it, and it is so beautiful and powerful to live in the desire for the thing versus the anxiety and the fear. There definitely is an attendant anxiety and fear, even when you practice living with a desire, which says, like, But what if you don't get it? But what if you're surprised? But what if this bad thing happens and you weren't prepared? What if it's worse if you have hoped for it and then it doesn't happen? Is the question coming from when I have talked about this. This, this teaching with quite a few people because I walk around with your book. It's in my purse. It's all over. So I talked about it and that is the concern for most people is, but if I let my desire get up and then it drops, yeah, what then? I think that's right. That will always be the thing that arises when we try and feel into the desire and we have to just kind of look towards that voice that's trying to protect us and say, Again, you can't protect. You're trying, but it's not going to work. At least in my experience, the trying to protect just like makes us live in the misery longer. So we have to just accept that fear is going to be a part of moving into the desire. We're never going to get fully rid of it. It's going to be a part of the journey, but you have to speak to that part of yourself that's afraid and say, we're going to try this other thing. You know, and you don't, you can come, you can come sit on my lap, you can be a part of this, but we're going to try and like expand into the thing that I really want because that's where there's like energy and growth and expansion and clarity, even if you don't end up getting it in the end, you've at least felt into some of that power. I think this gets touched on in a lot of different philosophies. So, it's not a crazy teaching at all. I think it's a beautifully said teaching that many other philosophies are, are, are pointing at. What I had to do was just try it. You talk about in your book, about being afraid in college that you would never find love, or that someone that really saw you for you. And that feeling of clinginess and of fear of disappointed hopes, or You know, all the ways that it couldn't work out. And I have definitely felt that for, for love or for other items. You talk about the difference that it was when you realized what you actually were desiring was love. I love your, your story. You talk about the waves came in and as each wave came in, you talked about to yourself what you actually desired. So I tried it in my life with many different things. I noticed when fear came up. The fear of failure, like failing my kids in certain things or whatever. I would find that seed of desire that was the opposite of the fear, and let it grow in me what I wanted. And the interesting thing I found was It, A, was so much more vibrant. It didn't fill Pollyanna like, Oh, I'm just not going to think about the fear. I'm going to only think about what I want to happen, right? And sometimes in like manifestation circles or abundance circles, I feel like there is a lot of spiritual bypassing and only focusing on what you want, but not being attuned to the other reality present here in, in this way, I felt like I could feel the fear, acknowledge that it was there and also choose. To see what I really wanted and the interesting thing was that helped me know myself more anyway. Like, who am I really? Which is part of the whole practice and helped me be myself more because I can show up more present in the world for however long it takes until I get or don't get that thing and as that I desire. Way more as myself when I'm acting as myself with what I desire and what I want. So I figure whether I get the thing or whether I do not. I at least have clocked a lot more time in the Becca seat. And the longer we're in the seat of ourselves, with the fear, and with the desire, I feel like that leads us more to the whole point anyway. It's like the in living color practice of meditation, I think. Yes, so beautifully said. That's right. I think that's my, that's my experience too. And even It almost becomes irrelevant to some degree. That's where I separate from the manifestors, is like, I don't know, maybe it helps you get the thing you want, maybe not, but it's doing a different job, too. Which is like, yes, that returning to the self, and clarifying, and also when you feel, when you bring into your body, what would it feel like if you got it, the thing that you wanted so badly, it actually gives you a taste of that feeling. Like, oh, I, I really want my children to be, to be safe, to be well. What is that, what is that desire? I guess I just really love my children. And it kind of gives, it accesses that love in such a big way. Or like, I really want to be seen or be loved. And then when you really open up to it, what would it feel like to be loved? It's, you feel the love. Yeah. Like, in that moment. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Next emotion I'm hoping to talk about is anger, because I love how you talk about it too. I really thought anger should be repressed, which we already talked about. You quoted Thich Nhat Hanh when he said, Recognizing our anger is crucial for our well being. Now, saying something is crucial for our well being from a master like that made me pay attention. But you talk about Anger in a different way. Why is it crucial and what do we do with it when it appears? Yeah. My favorite teaching on anger is came from a, a friend of mine who very deep teacher in the Zen world where she, her name is Laura O'Loughlin. And she said, every time I find myself feeling angry, I, I say like, don't just get angry. Draw a boundary. Because, I'll say, a large percentage of the time that we feel angry, it's our body's way of saying something isn't right. So that might be you let a boundary slip, or you took on more than you felt comfortable with. Or it could be you're angry because of bad things that are actually happening, and the body says, no, no, like, not good, not right, I am angry, this is not right. And that kind of anger, sometimes even rage, is appropriate. It's a natural thing to happen when that, you know, when things are wrong, or things feel like they've overdone. Slipped past a boundary. And so there's a movement we can make in there that says like, okay, is what's underneath this anger. Sometimes it's hurt. Sometimes it's this sense of like, I let, I went too far from myself. I let a boundary slip. Um, sometimes it's fear. Like I don't want something bad to happen. And so anger is so helpful to like bring ourselves to a different, to a truth. And. It gives us this igniting energy to do real important things in the world. The challenge is to not just act out of the anger, which is a, more a challenge to some people than other people. Like, some, some of us, like, I, like you, have been taught to repress it. So, for us, it's less of like a, maybe, maybe, less of like a danger that we're going to, like, lash out and, hurt people, except when we repress it, repress it, repress it, that lashing out will still happen. Yes, then there's going to be a talking to, that's what I've learned. Right, right. It might not be my, you know, most admirable self doing the talking. Exactly, exactly. And some people who are a little more hot headed, you know, or have been socialized this way, it immediately, the second they feel it, oof, they've got to act. And so it just The mindfulness practice of working with anger is to just kind of slow that down, to really feel the feeling and to look at what's underneath it, to air what's underneath it, and let that inform what the next steps are. And my favorite, speaking of parenting stuff, like my favorite song that I sing to myself, because I've just had to teach my kids this, is from Daniel Tiger, where he's like, It's okay to feel angry. But it's not okay to hurt someone. I remember watching that episode. It was before So powerful. It was one of my introductions into anger, actually. Yes, it's so beautiful and powerful. And it's like, okay, if it's really okay to feel anger, it really is. But it's never okay to hurt someone. When you talked about impatience related with anger, it's that we Get uncomfortable with patience because we feel like it's doing nothing. Or, what did you say? It was equated with, like, repression and delay. So, some, I think I thought being patient around anger was me further repressing my anger and was part of a problem. But when you talk in your book about the opposite, impatience, when we feel angry and we get impatient with the result, like your example, I think, is sitting on a subway. It's like a way we feel like we get an illusion of control because we're doing something about it, but almost always the consequences of impatience stack on to the original problem. They rarely actually solve anything. So, for another deeper read in it, I would say in your book what you talk about with patience and impatience related to anger, that has helped me so much. Oh, I'm so glad. Two more, two more questions if that's okay. So one, the other line that really struck me that I had to really spend some time with was you say true forgiveness is actually the opposite of forgetting. And while we're talking about anger, I want to address that because I mean, I was raised and many people were raised with the phrase forgive and forget. And some things that really happen. That where there has been an injustice or something has hurt and it was purposeful. I think I didn't want to forget because I thought that would mean saying that thing was okay or letting them off the hook. And learning what forgiveness even is seemed like a very vague idea to me because it seemed like I was giving away the responsibility or the witness that some problem had occurred. You address that, but you talk about how forgiveness. Is not just forgetting or doing nothing about it. And I love how you talk about it. Can you tell us why they're opposites? Yeah. Or what we can do to why forgiveness would be something helpful to us instead of an acquiescence of power. Yes. So forgiveness is not forgetting, like you mentioned, and it's not reconciling. Sometimes the person should not be in your life. You know, like it's not like in any way equating to say that, that this is like a, a valuable person to have, sometimes, but sometimes not. Or, it's also not for the forgiven person. Forgiveness in the model that I write about and, and teach about is for the forgiver. Because it actually is very painful. to hold on to pain for a long period of time. It actually harms us. The phrase that they use often is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah. So we're drinking the poison. We're carrying around this horrible feeling that you know, sits on us. We're replaying the pain again and again and again. You know, feeding the, the, the wood into the fire because we feel like we must keep it alive because we wanna be clear, like this thing shouldn't have happened and it causes suffering. But it's like, it, it feels like, well, if I forget it, if I let it go, that's even worse. So the move is to say, I am not. Letting this go in a sense of I am not forgetting that it ever happened. It's more saying radically Completely. I Believe that it happened. It was horrible that it happened. I you know that never ever ever should have happened and validating that like from the bottom of your Soul, no matter, you know, for a long time. This might take a long time and forgiveness is not on anybody else's timeline. This is just a process. If it feels like it's causing you more pain to keep sitting with it than it is to practice this other way. So when you feel that way, when you're ready, every time that painful thing comes up, To turn towards it immediately with so much love and so much validation to be like, I know this horrible thing really happened, it really happened, I know. And to just shower it with that kind of validation. And then, little by little, it's almost like the forgiveness happens on its own. Because you don't have to keep re energizing it and re energizing it. And it doesn't matter what the other person does or says. Sometimes the right move might be to confront them. Sometimes you can't confront them because they already died or they're not in the picture anymore. And sometimes you might, like, need to seek additional resources or help. But all of that is extraneous to this inner process of forgiveness that is It's essentially for your own healing, not for the other person. I love that. And turning into it immediately, I love how you say that because truthfully those parts of me that didn't want to forgive, and this can be big traumas or this can be, you know, repetitive things that have come up in a relationship or at work or whatever that I felt I had to hold onto in order to represent myself well. When you talk about. Immediately going to them, I again think about how I would hold my daughter if I knew that thing had happened to her. And I wouldn't be like, I actually don't want to talk about that right now. Actually, just be mad at him. Let's not talk about you at all. Like, I'm not a parent that would just plunge right onto the playground to beat somebody up before I looked at my daughter. You know, like I would hold her and I would let her cry. And I think the more that we treat our hurts with that love, the less volume they need, and the more we can see them. And in that process It's oftentimes my experiences that like, like, you know, on a small level scale, like with an ex boyfriend that was not kind to me. And I was just raging against him for so long in my mind. And when I tried to do this practice again and again, and I'm like, okay, yeah, you're right. It was terrible. You're right. It was horrible. And then at some point I'm like, I think what I'm really afraid of is that, like, Almost like the harder thing to forgive was why did I stay in it then? Yes, always. Why was, why did I let myself do that? And when that part that was like just raging at him felt really safe and seen, then that other little voice came up like, Hmm, I guess that's what I'm really ashamed of or like angry about. And then I'm like, okay. You, you, you were in that, like, that's the best you could do at the time. You wanted some very valuable things that you thought he could bring you. And that's what, that's what happened to your, that part is also forgiven. And you know, then that became like the, the source of the work, was to work with that part of forgiving yourself. It's always the most tender and has like 10 guards in front of it. Exactly. Exactly. So the practice of sinking deeper in and going at our own pace is beautiful. I wanted to talk about your, your section about mindfulness and relationships, but I realize we are out of time. So I would say, so your whole section on mindfulness and relationships, I thought was Beautiful. And just to summarize a bit of why I would point readers to your book, you talk about handling sexual desire in such a cool way. I think a big part of me still thought if you're a meditator, you're just not supposed to ever think about sex or have any kind of desire. Like you've transcended that. And you say the opposite, but talk about that road in between feeling no desire or feeling a desire that is immediately acted on to satiate and the power that is, In the middle between the two, which I love. You also talk about how mindfulness culminates to help us in relationships. And the reason I just wanted to point out my gratitude you talk about that is because pretty much everything you said in that whole section is something I, you know, I wish I could go back and explain to my 21 year old self. It wouldn't have mattered. I realize life is on a continuum. I learn at the pace that I do, but I got married at 21 with the view of happily ever after, and this was all going to be fantastic, as was my husband, and we have spoken multiple times about how much we are realizing that what we were not giving to ourselves, or what we thought we were deficient in ourselves, we were trying to Pull out of the other person by whatever means we needed to. You talk about the deeper question in a mindful relationship is, do we really like ourselves? Or do we believe that we are worthy of love and belonging? And if we have not yet done that work with ourselves, we will try to look at the other person for that answer through any investigative means that we can and through, and it can change how. We handle sex, it can change how we handle conversations, it can change all kinds of things. The flip side is, when we begin to learn to untangle our own selves and not make that anybody else's job, there is a vibrancy in relationship and a room, a tolerance, that can be really incredible. So, I just wanted to Thank you for those insights, because I really think they're true. No, thank you, and they're beautifully said. So yeah, I'll, will you tell us what you're working on, how people can work with you, because I know about your initiative on campus for NYU, but you've also started a consulting business, and sounds like you're starting a new book as well. Yes, so in 2020, I left NYU in a full time capacity, and I started my business, which is called Mindfulness Consulting. I do group programs. One of them is called Flourish. It's a chance to really dive deep in a cohort of other people, to deepen your meditation practice, and to really help your meditation practice flourish your life. Like, to really let it expand your life. And so that is periodically scheduling, it's periodically open for people to join. And I also come to organizations, businesses, and I do workshops and other kinds of programs. So if you are interested in that kind of consulting edge of the work, or you're interested in my classes and cohorts, please, you can find everything on my website, yaelshy. com. That's beautiful. I just, as a personal note, again, I'm so grateful for what you have written and the relatable way in which you shared these deeper teachings. But I'm also just so grateful for your kindness and that you put this work in the world and that you would share it with me today. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Becca. Thank you. It's been really fun. All right. And we'll see you next time. I'm so glad you were here for that conversation. So some of the top takeaways for me would be meditation is not about getting rid of our thoughts. It's about shifting the amount of time we're living in our thoughts versus the present moment. Number two, mindfulness is like the in between. Between sessions of meditation when we're actually in life doing very human things, mindfulness is paying attention To what we are actually doing. And it's amazing how much vitality that can add to the thing itself and to your life in general. And finally, there is so much worth in letting ourselves feel our emotions. It's some of our bravest work, and it also makes us a lot more capable of connection and compassion. It also helps us in relationships. It helps us navigate tech more purposefully, and ultimately leads us back to compassion for ourselves, or even helps us learn who that self is. And a growing awareness of ourself is what helps us ultimately show up as ourselves in the world. And there's just so much worth in that. So thank you for joining me for that conversation. Thank you for sharing it with your friends. And I'm grateful to be a part of getting this work and these words. And I'm grateful to be part of getting this work and these teachings out into the world. I am We're really excited about next week also. I'm sure that doesn't shock you by now. We have William DeMille on the podcast and this is the first of two episodes. He is a Master Regenerative Gardener and he's a creator of what is called the Georgic Schoolroom and the Georgic Revolution. They do courses and boot camps for regenerative gardening and agriculture. No matter what environment you're trying to grow food in, he actually provides all of the food for a cattle ranch that he works on in northern Nevada. And people, if he can grow food in where he lives in northern Nevada, I promise it will work. In many other places. He is the author of Worry Free Eating, and in that book you can learn some of the principles that he has been coaching me on. I have taken the boot camps and gone out to the cattle ranch, and it has completely changed how I look at the soil, gardening, outdoors. and a human's impact on the earth around us. We talk about what changes the taste and the nutritional content of our food. We talk about some common traditional gardening or agriculture methods that can actually be creating some of our biggest problems in the garden, like compacted soil or weeds or pests, and some different things that we can do that change it to. Make gardening an entirely different experience He works from people who are gardening in all kinds of spaces from pots on their backyard to To hundreds or even thousands of acres and he teaches us in this first episode The principles that we will need to know before we go to part two, which will be released in about a month, and in part two we talk about the practical tools that you can do as you are beginning a garden, if you're more of a kind of backyard garden with a plot of land. Raising food for your family. So, lots of interesting things. He is a very intelligent person and a great teacher, and I'm just really excited to share the conversation with you. Please remember to share this episode with at least one person who you think it can make a difference for. That is how we help our community and show up for each other, and that is the whole point of putting this podcast together. So, until next week, enjoy your life. And I'll work on that too. I'll meet you here.