The Good, Bad, and Super Ugly of Psychedelic &, Plant Medicines: Journey with Master Coach Kole Whitty

Sit with Kole Whitty in part 2 of this conversation as she takes us on a deep dive into the world of psychedelics and plant medicine/teachers, exploring their role in mental health, personal development, and traditional cultures. With 15 years of experience, Kole emphasizes the critical aspects of set, setting, and experienced facilitation to offer a more safe and transformative experience. She sheds light on the cultural practices of introducing plant teachers in South American communities and the implications on mental health and societal perceptions. Key topics include the responsible use of psychedelics across different ages, and the critical importance of setting, intentions, and the integration process post-experience to navigate these journeys safely. Kole stresses the value of education, personal responsibility, and self-awareness, as well as navigating the fine balance between use and dependency.  
 Through personal anecdotes and broad insights, this discussion offers valuable perspectives on the respectful, mindful use of psychedelics and plant teachers as part of a holistic approach to emotional and mental resilience. 

02:37 Exploring the Good, Bad, and Ugly of Psychedelics

03:47  Role of Psychedelics and Plant Medicines

04:33 The Dangers of Misusing Psychedelics

04:43  Importance of Safe Spaces in Psychedelic Experiences

06:22 Understanding the Motivations for Using Plant Medicine

08:02 The Misconceptions and Misuse of Psychedelics, Dangers of Glorifying Substances

10:00  Psychedelics as "Medicine"?

10:30 The Importance of Self-Awareness in Psychedelic Experiences

13:27  Psychedelics in Personal and Community Transformation

15:55  Importance of Safety and Trust in Psychedelic Experiences

21:28  Education and Self-Responsibility in Psychedelic Experiences

23:16  Different Needs of Individuals in Psychedelic Experiences and The Importance of Asking Questions and Advocating for Yourself in These Experiences

37:42  Psychedelics in Longevity and Health

43:07 The Importance of Finding a Safe and Trustworthy Facilitator for Psychedelic Experiences, Setting Intentions

54:17  Impact of Others' Energy and  Creating a Safe Environment 

55:29 The Importance of Feminine and Masculine Energy in Psychedelic Experiences

56:21  Impact of Systemic Oppression in Psychedelic Experiences

57:03  Dangers of Ignoring Your Own Needs in Psychedelic Experiences

58:47 The Importance of Boundaries

59:18  Impact of Others' Trauma on Your Psychedelic Experience

01:03:20 The Potential for Addiction in Psychedelic Experiences

01:07:50 The Role of Tobacco in Psychedelic Experiences

01:14:31 Discussing Psychedelic Experiences with Your Children

01:30:00  Legalities of Psychedelic Experiences

01:33:46 The Importance of Integration After Psychedelic Experiences

01:43:29  Pelvic Floor and next weeks episode

Condor Approach Integration coaching book: https://www.amazon.com/Condor-Approach-Mind-Body-Psychedelic-Experiences/dp/B0BZKFWDM2

To check out their events and coaching options, visit the Condor Approach website:https://www.condorcoach.com/

Listen to more integration coaching on Kole’s Podcast, The Psychedelic Coach. 

Follow on insta @mystikole

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome to the What Really Makes a Difference podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Becca Whittaker. I've been a doctor of natural health care for over 20 years and a professional speaker on health and vitality, but everything I thought I knew about health was tested when my own health hit a landslide and I became a very sick patient. I've learned that showing up for our own health and vitality is a step by step journey that we take for the rest of our lives. And this podcast is about sharing some of the things that really make a difference on that journey with you. So grab your explorer's hat while we get ready to check out today's topic. My incredible guest network and I will be sharing some practical tools, current science and ancient wisdom that we all need, no matter what stage we are at in our health and vitality. I've already got my hat on and my hand out, so let's dive in and we can all start walking each other home. And we are back for part two of this conversation with Cole Witte. For those of you who listened to part one last week and had to wait a whole week and let out a super frustrated groan, You're welcome. And we're back. I promised we would be. I am so grateful for the way that Cole shared her insights and her experience in this episode. She is a master teacher as well as an integration coach and a very psychedelic informed coach with all of her experience. She's a person that I trust to sit down with you. And you're important to me. So what we are talking about in this one is actually based on questions that I have received from people in the audience and from others. I know that our patients or friends who are interested in some of these plant medicines or plant teachers, or in just giving themselves some help that's sort of outside of the box, but they've heard of some experiences when people tried it and it was excellent. Not a good thing. Sometimes there's some crap that happens in these spaces too. I think in so many places in our human experience, sometimes there are opportunities that are transformational and beautiful and full of light and love. And then somehow once humanity gets ahold of it in some spaces, it can twist and there turns into a shadow world and there turns into crap. And sometimes there's abuse and neglect and secrets and just crummy. And this episode is about navigating that. We're talking about the good, the bad, and the ugly of the psychedelics or other plant medicine teachers and how we can navigate it better. So she talks about the different plant medicine teachers that are most available, what it's like if you go to Peru or Costa Rica or if you don't, um, where these come from, what they are like, what they are intended for. How we can choose a facilitator, shaman, or coach, what questions we can ask to set ourselves up for success, how we can prepare beforehand, how we can integrate afterward. And that's a big reason why we did two parts. Integration is such a huge piece that we found it worthy of part one. So if you haven't listened to part one yet, and you would like more information about transformation and integration, Please pop over to that episode and then come back and we can use that as a base for this discussion. I'm just excited to get into it. So without further ado, I bring you Cole Whitty, Transformational Coach. Okay. So I am so excited to get into this and I have lots of questions and also quite a few questions from my listeners. So first of all, I would like to know, Since you are a professional in the integration, since you have all kinds of experiences with different plant medicines in different traditions, understandings of how to use it, I'm so grateful for your perspective in this space because I am hearing psychedelics or plant medicines, ayahuasca, journey space, and LSD, all kinds of things spoken of in such a positive light now, right? It was shamed and kept very secret. And then, Now I'm hearing so many people talk about it, but talk about it in a way that's like, Oh, my buddy has some of this, or, Oh, so and so went and did a retreat. And now they think they know how to facilitate this. And I just saw warnings all over the place for my own personal life. I was invited to do plant medicine many times. And. for me it was just red flags and that had to do with fear that had to do with religious upbringing but it also had to do with some of the things I heard from those spaces and I knew if I ever was to take part in something like that it would have to be a spiritual call that I felt from inside and it would have to be with people who I truly felt safe with and who understood What they were doing had a lot of experience and could handle whatever it was that came up for me. I was really afraid of what would come up for me or what could, and I am not a person that really wants to process full trauma in the middle of five people that I've never met before. So I had some serious questions and I ended up doing just, you know, disclosure. I did end up doing two plant medicine journeys. I was careful about the setting. I was careful about who I trusted and they were incredibly safe and cautious with me and it ended up being two. incredibly deep spiritual experiences in my life that I'm so grateful for. I would like you please to help us answer these questions so that other people, if they feel that call and if they feel the interest or they want more information, can choose people that can facilitate an experience where you truly go in deeper inside yourself. And there is isn't the really bad side effects. So let's talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly. Please, if you will, help us out, Cole. First of all, why would people want to do plant medicine or chemically assisted journeys? Well, so This is where I have a problem. And I take ownership of all my thoughts and feelings. So anyone that's like, you shouldn't be judgmental. Oh no, no, no. You're going to hear all my judgments and appraisals from my experience, 15 years in the work, all the stuff I've seen because I don't shy away or find that having judgments makes you a bad person. It's, are you operating authentic to what you say you believe and who you are? And when people mirror that back to you as accurate for me, that is the goal. So that people can. honestly make decisions on if they want to be around you or not. So that is my sole goal as a human is to say, am I congruent? With who I say I am, who I want to be, and what people reflect back to me, right? So that's my precursor to all the judgments and projections you're going to hear because as humans that's all we do is create stories, okay? And so even by saying she's very judgmental requires judgment. So now that we've cleared that out of the way, welcome into the world of my mind with all my judgments, projections, approximations, and experience. And truth. It's all of us. It's all of us. And I think all of us all at once, all the time, all exactly. Yeah. And, and that's where we can actually move from, from an honest place is when we actually take ownership of that versus it's not anything wrong with you. This is, this is mine. Y'all anyone listening right now has the freedom to change it. If they don't agree, how beautiful you are still in control. Right? So. My biggest. Our issue at large is the glorification of substances that's happening right now. Because I'm watching people replace alcohol with ketamine and calling it a journey. Now does that make it not a journey? No. But when we are replacing one substance for another so that we can connect, we are still supporting our inability to connect without being altered. Right. And so where my problem comes is not even that I'm cool with that, but let's just call it doing drugs with friends. Let's just call it having a trip together. Um, and because there is rarely an intake process, there is rarely an integration process. There is rarely a consensual understanding of what's going to transpire. Lots of boundaries are not communicated because there's no one really in charge. So there, when you have this approach of Everyone's going to open their heart and we're all going to be harmonious. People are bringing all their shit with them. And so even their ideas of a good person, a bad person, an integral person are going to vary. So when you enter a lot of these spaces where it's, we're going to sit and do ketamine together or MDMA together. If there's not conversation around terms of engagement, what is appropriate in this container, how to handle it, if you need anything, then those are the first signs that it is not the container for me. Because when no one's in charge, no one takes responsibility. And that doesn't work for me. I've been and constantly get invited. If I had a dollar for every time someone handed me a handful of mushrooms somewhere, just because they assume if I've been doing this work for 15 years, surely I just want all the mushrooms. I don't people. If you hand me mushrooms, I'm never going to eat them. It's not, I don't know how they were raised, I don't know who they came from, I don't know what species they are, and those all matter to me. And so this generalization of This is incredible and it's medicine. I do not ascribe to this as medicine. I am not a sick person. And so if I tell my body, I'm going to ingest this substance and call it medicine. When on another layer of constructs, I am a little opposed to medicine because I was over prescribed as a child because I don't really trust medicine because there's a time and a place. I have two constructs that aren't really harmonious because on a deeper level, My body, I've told, I don't need medicine. So this is where the self awareness comes in. One of my elders, one of my teachers down in Peru is named Malku. Malku was the first person to say to me, we have to stop saying this medicine thing. You are not sick people. You need to reconnect to the earth. You need to see yourself again, but that doesn't make you sick. Now for some people there, you are on a healing journey, but this is a fraction of the people. And Malku was the first one to introduce to me the concept of power plants, master mushrooms, and that these are master teachers. If you show up to a ceremony as a patient, you're already coming from a space of deficit, of illness, of something's wrong with me, versus An empowered space of, hey, master teacher, hey, ancestors, hey, God. Jesus, whoever that is for you, show me what I need to see of why I'm not healing. Show me what I need to see to get back in my heart. Show me what I need to see of where things went sideways. Show me what I need to see to, what do I need to do with my life? But this, many people are coming in with the same conditioning of reverence they were taught in religion. And so you have to stay on your mat and you need to be quiet and you need to not move and that's reverence. That is contextual. When I go down to the jungle, when I work with the Huni Kuin tribe, their only, we'll say, rules, one, nobody gets to leave the space. You all stay in the room together. When I hear of facilitators going to bed at midnight, when they just dosed somebody at 10 PM, I have a problem with that. I have a problem. It happens. And you are inducing a high possibility of trauma. When you leave someone in an altered space and you just leave the room and go to bed, you actually abandoning them in the realms, the elders and true healers that I work with would never. Their rule is no one leaves the space till everyone has returned, right? And they, they stay and they sing all night. The Huni Kuin start singing at 8 p. m. They are the last ones to leave. It's 7 a. m. when they're wrapping up. To leave when we all decide, you know, when we're all ready to go to bed. And for me, that resonated very deeply because the Marley Tume is one of the women in the jungle she's known as the most, she's the first recognized what is called a pajay, which in English or what we, the closest association is like a shaman. For her, she's like, if I'm going to send everyone out into the realms, then I don't leave until I make sure everyone's back home. Like it's irresponsible. She doesn't say it's irresponsible because she's, we're translating from two languages, right? But she's just like if I say that I love you, why would I send you to a dark place if I don't have to? Like it's not necessary for you to get the lessons and the teachings. Or on the flip side of that, Why would I blast you out and then abandon you if I say that I love you and that resonated for me very very deeply So then it comes down to step one is we have to remove this Generalization of why would people do it and talk about maybe three main buckets that I see One some people are looking for healing of their physical body could be cancer autoimmune issues Things of that nature that we're talking about acute. This like, this is a problem versus someone that's having back pain, sleeplessness, migraines, you know, things of that nature. So step one is people seeking a deeper layer of healing because they've exhausted Western medicine. And maybe they weren't open to psychedelics or these master teachers before, but they are now because on paper, they should have been healed. But they're not. So we see that a lot. My main client base in like 2018 ish was biohackers, biochemists, healthcare practitioners, chiropractors, people who were considered more kind of at the forefront of medicine and changes and that kind of thing who had become sick. And so they'd gone on their own healing journey, but they had already been open to a more alternative. To me, it's not alternative. It's innovative or it's, Evolutionary medicine versus alternative in many circumstances. So we have the people, yeah, I don't like the alternatives. That's me, and I love that. Evolutionary medicine, informed medicine, and that's also the bucket, that's why I tried. So yes, you're speaking right to it. Right, and that's what makes someone Then also why they can be resistant to plant medicine is if Western medicine, if they don't agree with how it's being done, again, there's some unconscious things working through them where they don't trust medicine. So now you're bringing these ideas you've attached to medicine into what you're calling medicine work. It's confusing for your physicality when it's been conditioned into certain ways of being. Down in South America, they say medicina. But Meina is all of the plants in the jungle, not just ayahuasca. So we are coming and saying, oh, Meina, you know, the me, the medicine is ayahuasca, wachuma, whatever. But they're saying that for time and rosemary and pine. So it's disjointed in the translation in our American context. So the first bucket, people are looking for healing and so I'll tend to see them. They place the psychedelic psychoactive master teachers onto a pedestal where I'm praying to you. Oh, thank you. There's a difference between gratitude and groveling. And a lot of people I watched them grovel to the medicine and they're giving their power away, which is a problem because they just took their beliefs in religion and now they've displaced it onto something else. They're calling the medicine versus collaborative. I'm coming as a student. That's why I say master teachers. In plant, animal, or fungi form. In spirit molecule form. In chemical form. For me, they're all teachers. When I show up as a student, I come with an open mind, a willingness to learn. And then when I leave the space, my commitment is to be a divine articulation and walking proof of the teachings. That is what a student does. A patient leaves and goes back and does, you know, continues their physical therapy and their integration protocols. A student Walks out in the world to be that, to embody that, if they want to be, for me, an empowered student. And so just that change in dynamic now separates from the people who are sick to the people who, maybe they've just got some things that are not working. They're reactive. Maybe they're a CEO and they have a high turnover rate and they finally realized that they're the common denominator, right? It's not in fact that they keep hiring the wrong people. It's that they're hyper vigilant reactive They have expectations like all these kinds of things. So Societally if they're successful, we wouldn't call that anything wrong until they're sleepless their relationships don't last Their children are acting out, right? So they're seeing evidence that how their, their behaviors are not working for them. And that usually hits somewhere between 35 45, somewhere in that range, when someone's reached a level of success and also seeing what's not working and that they're the common denominator. That's typically when I also see them start to, the health impact is like 38 to 48, when someone's health tends to crash if they're driven by past circumstances. that are shame, guilt, significance, need to, you know, need for approval, those kinds of things. And so we have the illness bucket of people who are in such a state of disease. They're looking, they really do need a more deeper spiritual and there are healers and I've witnessed miracles for sure. But out of 15 years, I had maybe two huge miracles for myself out of hundreds. And so when this generalization is this is a miracle and it can change your life, it can, absolutely. So could breathing intentionally for 15 minutes a day. So could going to a Tony Robbins event. So could, so the potential's there, but the actuality isn't. And so the documentaries and the news stories and the, You know, a lot of what's seen online is, Oh, it's like 10 years of therapy in one night. Yeah. But it depends on what therapist you're comparing it to. And maybe it depends on your experience. It can be 10 years of therapy in one night, or it can take you quite a bit of therapy to overcome what happens in that one night. Right. And on a, and honestly, a great therapist can get you those results. It's just that You know, you're looking at, if we look at therapy overall, it's 74 percent white women. We have counties in the United States, like, 33 percent don't even have one licensed one. Then you have places like Austin, where it's saturated. And then great therapists always have a long waiting list. So then, when you actually need them, you can't get into them. And when you look at our mental health since 2020, it has escalated so exponentially that it's something like, what is the metric, some absurd like 20 percent of teen girls have experienced severe depression, suicidal ideation, like it's very, very, very, very high in our kids and our teens. And so, yes, we have the mental health and disease. Not, and this is where we just have to see them as different buckets and why taking radical self responsibility for what container is going to be most supportive of you, the process that you're in, and seeing it just like going out to eat at a restaurant. If you don't like spicy food, don't go to that restaurant. You know, that's like a authentic Indian where they're not spicy is too much for your stomach. Right? Right. Like, this is how I see. Having these master teacher experiences is it's finding the facilitator. That's the kind of teacher Support system that works and functions for you if let's say that you're looking, people will call this authentic or, you know, I want an authentic ayahuasca experience, which really just means I want not a white person running it, which is, which is fine, but just someone that actually knows what they're doing, not like has done to and call themselves the shaman and they're going to give it to me for 25 bucks. I mean, look. Most people I know who are authentic want something different than that. Totally. Right. And this is where the first step for me was education. This is why we stepped out of facilitating and out into the field. We got a very, or I got a very clear message that our ability to articulate these divine spaces and messages into a third dimensional context is why we needed to stop facilitating and step forward with education. Step one is we have to get educated. The idea that You're going down to the jungle means you're getting an authentic experience is already concerning. Because there's a lot of harm happening in the jungle, two of the most common ways is just because someone comes from a tribe does not mean that they have integrity in the way that you think they should, would, or whatever. They don't understand the way that you think. You're gonna come with your assumptions, your projections, your whatever, and when you have a hard time integrating, they don't help you. They're not integration coaches. That's not a part of the culture. And if you think that just because someone is of indigenous background, that they didn't get into it for the money when they saw people in their tribe having all these tourists come down, not just for money, but significance, they're human. And if you think that there's not a lot of sexual predatory Stuff happening down in the jungle. Please do more research. There's something called gringa hunters, which is literally South American shaman men. who are falling in love, we'll say, with American women, who come down bright eyed and bushy eyed, and the shaman says, or the facilitator, or the curandero, or whatever, it's like, we had a past life together. I can see her inner shaman waking up, and then nine months later, she's got a baby, she stays for about a year, and then she comes back home. Like, this is a very common, Yeah. Occurrence down in the jungles and down in South America. Now, if you know that fully now, and there's people that will take advantage or not take advantage anywhere. So I've, I feel like going into an altered state, you have to think about it as, as I teach my kids, like, okay, if you're going to drink, Here's the, where you, where you are safe to drink and sort of lose control of your judgment. Here's where you're not. And I think in this realm, with the plant teachers, I mean, you're zooming to other places or to intense inner world. And you need to be with people that will be respectful and not take advantage in that area. Same as any other state you step out. Well, even, even with that. It is culturally different. The men that I know down there that I've had to sit down and say, I'm leading retreat down here, you're not allowed to give anyone a massage. Period. Because culturally it's different. It's not the same. They have wives and girlfriends and it's not, The thing is, the actions can be consensual in the time and in the moment, but it's because you have wounded women going down seeking healing from masculine structures, or men, or their father, or something, and it gets attached to this significant shaman who sees me and I see him in a place like Peru making eye contact. Most culturally, the men will not make eye contact with you because one, on a spiritual level, a lot of them will say Americans are way too much. Like I, it's just like, they, they're like hungry, ravenous, you know, they, they come with like their souls bit bore open for other men down there. It's an invitation for deeper intimacy. That's an interest. Like I'm making, I'm gazing into your soul because we have this deep connection that awakens them as. humans. And so for me, it's not even, you can feel someone's of the purest heart and then they want to give you a massage and help you with healing. And then before you know it, you're hearing a belt buckle come undone. Like this isn't, it's that we have to remove that predatory is bad versus predatory is hungry when it recognizes opportunity. They, I don't, my experience, and this does vary, and I do know of predatory situations is that, You're going into a culture you don't understand so you don't even know what questions to ask and you're giving again your power away Versus never give your power away. And this is where it gets confusing when you hear about psychedelics like oh Well, you need to trust and surrender. I don't surrender. I trust myself to be guided I do not surrender like to me that meaning for me personally does not because I think of it like a riptide, a rip current, right? If you're out at sea, a rip current is going to pull you regardless. Now instead of surrender, I allow it to take me to where it's going to go so that I can swim after that because that's what they tell you with rip currents. If you get pulled out, just let it take you. It will stop and then you'll be able to swim, right? But I don't surrender to the pull. I just allow it to happen. In psychedelics, I don't give my power to the master teacher, the mushrooms, ayahuasca, wachuma, nothing. I trust myself to be guided, which means I discern and feel into who I feel safe with. If there's any trepidation on if I feel safe with the person, it's a no. If there's trepidation about people in the container, am I willing to explore that trepidation this time? Because how do you learn the difference between your instinct and your intuition? Your instinct from the past might tell you men are not safe. But your intuition is like, no, you working with this person could heal that part. The problem is, we don't typically know the difference until we put ourselves in positions where we feel the difference. We're like, oh no, I knew I shouldn't have gone. And I went against it. Because I felt a pull, but what it was, was my Oh, I should go because they told me it's because I don't trust. And so again, it's my deficit. It's something wrong with me. That's why I should go. Right. And so it's, This is where body mapping for me is everything. It's learning the difference between your instinct and your intuition. Because at the end of the day, you actually don't need a shaman or guide at all for psychedelic experiences when you're talking about lower dose. Now, lower dose to me would be Less than four grams of mushrooms, less than two for probably most people. I work with people that work with 50 grams at a time. So when someone tells me a hero dose is five, I just laugh at them, to be honest with you. But that's a story for a different day. Right. I mean, I haven't got, ten is the most I've done at one time. But, you know, still. Low, slow, slow dose is what I do, but that's how I typically respond best. Like, I just need to fill the, the, I need to fill it. Do that. I let it carry me and I go, I require very little and honestly, for me, that's a part of trust. I'm like, Hey, can you give me the least amount that will give me the benefit? Building. Yes, exactly. And this is where, when you know yourself, cause here's two, again, We have the people that think they're sick. Then we have the people that are in a bit of a more stable mental position. They, they aren't desperate for healing. They're like, okay, this didn't work. I'm not giving up. So they still have a level of certainty and self trust. When someone doesn't trust themselves, that's when I'm most concerned on who they choose. And as a coach, I want to help ask them more questions because it's not about getting the right answer from a shaman or from a facilitator. It's how do you feel about the answers they give you to your questions? So that you can feel into it with your whole body, right? Because some of the, you know, we talked earlier about like red flag things. So as someone that you expressed on the last episode, more specifically, if someone has high performance tendencies, one of two things ends up needing to happen. Either they need to start lower and build their trust because that altered feeling, they have to actually titrate and not go beyond their threshold in their nervous system or else it's going to shut them out. It's going to freak out because they have forced themselves for too long to do things. Workouts, work, long hours, and the body refuses to be pushed anymore. So if you do high dose, it's just going to purge it out, or do nothing, or put you into a lot of suffering because if the person's propensity has been harder, faster, more now, that is the problem, right? On the flip side, some people have become so rigid. And they are so much in control that it requires higher dose to get past that threshold because they can control it still too much. But it has to be a choice, not a facilitator's choice. And this is where when I was doing my own individual work, because I journeyed on my own healing journey for six years before I started to explore co facilitating and facilitating. So I had explored all these places within myself. And that's the difference in a skilled facilitator versus what we would call a tripsitter or a space holder. So Someone that has a lot of health condition things and is looking for healing would probably want to explore more with a shamanic practitioner, someone that works with energy, someone that can be more involved in their experience. So we would call that either a Sherpa, a psychedelic Sherpa, or so someone that's a shaman, energy worker, ayahuasquero, someone that's working on more, more realms than just the mind. Versus If you are, like for me, I don't really need a facilitator. I need just a trip sitter that I feel safe with, so that I feel safe enough to go internal within myself. But there were absolutely times I needed. more of a facilitator because I couldn't, the things that were coming up, I needed to process, I needed to talk through, I needed energy moved. So I needed someone to be there more involved because it was like being dropped in the middle of China. And I'm, I'm like, but I need, I don't understand. I don't understand. So I needed. More engagement, but then after learning the language more, then I didn't need that same level of external support. I just needed to feel safe to explore within myself, right? And so the, I'm going to weave these together. We have the person that's seeking for health. We have the person that's seeking for, they want to, it's more corrective. So it's like someone that's going to the gym because they want to lose 10 to 20 pounds. You know what I mean? They want to strengthen some things, but they're not recovering from some big surgery. They're not, you know, that's the difference for someone seeking healing. They need more hands on support to heal. And so I like to say having a coach is kind of like having a cast on a broken arm. So the, the coach can be supportive, but it can't stay as the sole support or else other muscles start to atrophy. So if I go into a psychedelic experience, a transformative experience. Some part of me disintegrates, same with a car accident, having a baby, all of those create a fracture. If I have a community I feel safe in, that might be all I need to integrate back in with support. But for some people it's a more severe break. They need a greater assessment of what the injury is, what support could look like, because it's not just a cast. Right, we're going to have to put pins in, we need a surgery, like, they've got more complex issues than just the healing of trauma. What that could look like is they're in a relationship that's still not safe. They live in an area that's not safe. Like their, their situation is far more complex. Then stepping into a healing container for a childhood experience. They are not safe now. So they, you know, that might be the person you want to have a therapist and do this kind of work and have a spiritual guide because they need a little bit more of a team because of the complexity of the situation. That makes sense. Then the people that are, the people that just need more guidance. Because they're not sure what questions to ask or where to go. They just need someone they trust to have questions and help with accountability and strategizing. To me, that's what a coach does. And so, for, let's say, it's like having a personal trainer. You can go to the gym and work out for free. You can go to a psychedelic experience and work your mind, right? And do it for way less money. Mushrooms you can get enough for 20, 30 bucks to have an experience a lot of the time. I wouldn't do it that way, but you know, just to compare. And you can have a gym membership to something like Planet Fitness for 10 a month. So for me, the difference is just like in fitness. Some people will hire the trainer because they have goals and intentions that the trainer has experience in helping them get there. Other people are just going to pay for the planet fitness membership and go do the exercises they Googled and learned about. And they can, if they keep showing up, they're going to get results, but that's all they have access to is the 10 a month. There's not a right or wrong. It's that when you start to take that radical self responsibility to say, you know what, I want the support. because I don't want to trip through it for two years. I don't want to learn the hard way. And so this is when you start bringing in the questions or I'll say kind of the third tier. I've been kind of weaving in and out of it. So we have the sick person, the person that's looking for more adjustments, we'll say. And then we have the person that's looking to how do I Transform my community. Now it's not about them anymore. They've gone through what we call the snake Puma condor phase. They went through the transformation of the snake energy, the archetype. They are now they've gone through the Puma energy of focus and agility and drive. Now they want to shift into condor and the big vision for their community. How can I impact optimize and transform in a bigger way? And so this is where they're not using it for medicine. And I don't even say using, I say, they're not sitting with it. Psychedelics or master teachers, they want to know, you know, I say, my, when I set an intention before a psychedelic experience or master teacher journey, I always suggest setting an intention. Thank you. An intention is what do I want to know, do, be, or understand. If it's your first time working with one psychedelic or master teacher, your intention might be to experience it. Not some bigger, you know, thing. Okay. But the more that you get skilled in the work, not more experienced, more skilled in these spaces, in these realms, then it becomes what else, what do I need to know is possible for the impact I can make in the world. It's more, again, going to that evolutionary. Like, now I've done the work on myself. This is where I'm going back to God, Source, Universe, Earth, and saying, now how can I serve in the greatest way possible, trusting I can be abundant and give abundantly. Not the sacrificial model of care. Not the people who are willing to die for what they believe in, but the ones that are committing to truly living for what they believe in so that they can live an extra 20 years. We're dying too young for our technology, and the only people living longer, so many are kept alive, for me, in a way that's unethical and to serve a system. If we're doing this deeper internal work, my question for myself and these experiences and with these master teachers is one, setting an intention. My intention is to live to 140. That is my intention, right? So how does that inform now? I never forget that life can change. I can, I never forget there's a bigger planet play in my context. So that's there, but that doesn't mean again, I'm collaborating with God. I'm collaborating with the universe. I'm not just letting things happen by happenstance. We are going to con sequence. together, right? We're going to create things in sequence to the best of my ability. I'm going to show up. I'm going to listen. I'm going to learn. I'm going to grow, but imagine the difference that it would be in our society if we had people as healthy as possible until 125 years old versus they made it to a hundred, but the last 30 years they were pretty much in like a care facility. So how far with that intelligence? Yes. And the intelligence and how they could advise and how they could share. Like, when I look, so I was born in 1983. When I look at how technology has changed, I truly believe right now we're in as big of a shift as the Industrial Revolution was. For the 1900s and so in knowing that that means that if I'm 40 almost 41 now And I've got another hundred years. I plan on being here How could I impact the world if I was committed to staying that long to the best of my ability that means I would have to Continually understand things differently and be open Not only to my ideas around aging, but my ideas around evolution. When, when I'm around friends that are like, Oh man, I feel so old. You will not hear me ever, ever, ever say that out loud to my body. I will not. And I know that that's why my body is operating the way that it is at 41 versus a lot of my friends. I know that why, you know, my husband, Ta, who just turned 52, and is a grandfather, and his daughter is 32, Wow. Exactly. He does not look 52. Oh, I know. He looks younger now than he did in his thirties, in his mid thirties. And for us, that's because as long as we ascribe to the idea, now is the body going to change? Yes. But the idea that aging means we're going to hunch over and we're going to just continually like collapse in, for us, it's not that we reject the idea. We show up for ourselves for that to not be a possibility when you start to understand things differently. And so that's where sitting with these master teachers becomes evolutionary because our physical bodies have not changed in thousands of years, millions of years. Our nervous system, our primal instincts have not changed. So what does it mean in the evolution of AI? What does it mean in the evolution of the earth? How do we integrate and grow with it? Because the way that intelligence is shifting, we have to shift. Thinking about that objective, when you said, I want to, my plan is to live till 140, I thought, Wow, I do not feel that way at all. I do not want to be here that long feeling this stuff. But as you talk, I'm feeling what's happening in my body when I realize what a shift it is to plan forward for feeling good and feeling healthy all the way there. Like do I want to be at 90 but healthy and able to share what I am doing versus the cultural expectation that we have. of aging and, and losing the connection in the tribe, losing the, the wisdom that can be offered by our elders. Like that is what we see, but that does not have to be how it is. And we can evolve back into being able to coordinate with our older generation. What you said in part one, when you said, if you break the word healthy into heal thy, then I'm thinking, wow, if I want to feel better. feel able and present and healthy at 90 or, or longer than it's a whole process of heal, lie, whatever. And not that we constantly have to be doggedly, depressingly working on healing, but there is always something that we can step into to heal, to expand, to tune into, to listen to, and to love. For, for me though, the plant teachers. It's more like I see people who are interested in that if they can tell there is something deeper that they need to tune into or to let go of and they're not sure how, then it's like another route that they can use to help them go into themselves and like you said, just one of many. I'm wondering if we, if I can ask a few questions that I have been given from our listeners. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so one of the first questions would be, how do I find a place of safety? Like, what are some questions that I can ask someone that's facilitating, or if my friend says, Oh, I heard a facilitator is coming to this neighboring town. They are from Peru. I'm sure it's going to be great. What questions can you ask beforehand, and what should you be paying attention to? to make it so you know if you're walking in a space that, that has more of a tendency to be safe or not safe. This is coming from, from a person that texted, that has talked to me before saying, you know, I hear of people facilitating that I know, that I've known for years. And because I have known them for years, I know There is no way in hell that I want to sit in an altered state and let them influence the way that I'm going to go inside. There's just no way in hell. People that are finding them on Instagram might not know that, but I don't know that. So it makes them nervous to find a facilitator because they already know facilitators that they don't trust. So what questions do you ask? So my general rule of thumb is if it's not someone I would trust alone in my house, that's my first thing. Would I trust this person alone in my house after talking to them? That's my just like top level. Cause I can't tell you how many times someone told me they sat with someone that I just asked them that question. They're like, Oh no, I don't think so. I'm like, so you wouldn't trust them to sit in your house alone without you there, but you are going to let them sit for your external home. Cause if you go deep into the realms, your body stays behind, they're watching your house. Right. And so, It's, if you wouldn't let this person watch your dog, walk your dog, like care for your kid, but you would let them be a steward over you, that's a, that's a consideration. So the other thing I'll offer here is I have something called the facility, the finding your facilitator questionnaire. I'll have, I'll send it to you so you can put it in the notes. People just put their email, they'll get the download in their inbox, right? Because some of the questions that I ask, it's not about getting the right answers. It's about listening and how you feel about the answers that you get. So, questions like, how long have you been a shaman? How many ceremonies have you participated in? How many have you conducted? Where did you learn? What lineage did you study? How do you conduct ceremonies? How long do they last? Is it overnight? What time would I arrive? How long can I anticipate being there? Can my family reach me while I'm there? What's included in the experience? How long can I anticipate from when I imbibe until it's quote unquote over? A lot of times people now are not asking questions because they've been told not to have expectations. So don't ask what to expect. Say, what can I anticipate? Well, we're going to take it 5pm. You can anticipate by about 6. 30. Most people are in the experience. You can anticipate that by midnight you'll be back and you can anticipate food will be available if you, or if you're called to eat. You can anticipate that I'm going to support you for up to a week after, right? What should I bring? What should I wear? What's it going to, where is it going to take place? Is there a diet leading up to it that I should follow? What about if I'm on medications or take herbs? It's not just about medications. Some herbs are problematic with psychedelic experiences. A lot of people will say, Oh, you can't be on antidepressants and work with mushrooms. That's not true. You have to do it different. So you need someone that knows what they're doing. You know, so there's all these rules that have come into play that There is no definitive totality across the board for dosage. There's no totality across the board for how it's going to be for you. But when you can sit and talk to someone and be like, okay, so what do I do if I feel unsafe? Do you have an integration process? How long can I reach out to you afterwards? If I'm struggling, what do you do to keep confidentiality? Because journeying in spaces where it's not legal. And this idea. where people are like, Oh, I started a church that doesn't make it legal. That makes it defensible in court. If something happens, if you have a good lawyer. And so I'm seeing a lot of recklessness with the more overnight facilitators, people without a lot of experience that read one article that said, Oh, well, under the religious freedom act, I can just start a church. Not necessarily. Okay. So understanding like what substance are you going to be taking? Are they willing to tell you how much? Some facilitators won't tell you because they don't want to create an expectation. Or they want you to trust them. And if they say that, for me, the red flags is if I ask someone a question and they get defensive, or start projecting on me, like, Oh, you have control issues, you just need to trust me. And it's like, no, I have control issues because of all the times someone said that exact thing to me, I just need to trust you. And then I was violated. So if you're unable to hold my question, you've already told me what I need to know about your capacities for me. It doesn't make them wrong. You're not for me then. Because I got questions because most of my life I didn't ask questions and I gave my power away to authority. And I had the district attorney's office of New York city talk me out of pressing charges against someone. For a sexual assault because of that exact reason his power. I said, well, maybe he's right Oh, and so I have learned to stay an advocate for myself, whether it's a shaman doctor Religious leader my husband whoever if you can't handle my questions, you can't handle me So if I'm too much for you, I'm going to go find someone who can actually Hold all of me because for me to heal I need someone to With the ability to hold this level of energy, because it is a lot, and I know that, and for me to go into a space where they initially, it's different now, but initially if I went into a space and they were like, you need to be quiet, stay on your mat, don't be too loud, that was deepening my traumas because I had been told I was too much in school. I was too loud. I was disrupting other people. And so I learned to be small in the classroom. What I needed was a container where I could show up fully me, where I could yell, and I could cry, and there was a place for that. And I finally found a facilitator who had a sound booth in their house. So I could go scream and cry and fully emote. And that's what my energy needed to heal because I have a big mission. I have a big purpose. That means I need that big energy. And that's what got me and Todd to start to become facilitators is we were like, yeah, but where do the too much go? If they're always being hushed. In, in communities, in circles, that's the same compliance of society that it's like stay in line, conform to the container. This is what we do here. And so we created a container of opposite where in our main circle, we said, everything is welcome here. According to you, we had rules and guidelines, but everything was welcome. And if you needed a quiet space, we moved you. That was the opposite of most circles, and that was for some people freeing and for some people too much. So it's really about knowing there's not a right or wrong container. It's that take radical responsibility for what you think would be most supportive of you right now, and what might not be, right? I'm going to put a bow on it right here. You want to understand something like, if you've had sexual trauma or abuse from men, It is more likely you'll benefit from a container with a masculine and feminine person at the head, not just a man, because that dominant masculine energy can feel unsafe in your body or your nervous system on an unconscious level. And so in the journey, it can make it where people's bodies are scared, but it's not that the person's wrong. It's for whatever reason, they're reminding you of an unsafe environment. And for me, There's some things that you work at or work through in a ceremony and sometimes it's not time for you to push that far. So I like to say 10 percent past your comfort level, not 50. And so sometimes people are feeling anxious and they think they need to break through. But what I see is that hits a wall faster, which has its benefits, but like remodeling a house, If you go in and you want to just blow all the walls out because you want an open concept, but you don't understand that some of that is load bearing for your life, for who you are, and how you can function, you go into a psychedelic experience, do more, push yourself further, harder, faster, more, your entire life can come caving in. And that's one way to rebuild, but if you have kids, if you have business, That way is going to be really damaging collateral damage versus if someone's a single person with financial resources that can take off time or sold their business, I'm more willing to go for those foundational pieces if that's what they wish. than someone who is a parent with young children who has a company that's reliant on them because it's too high risk of collateral damage potential. That's beautiful. As you're talking, I'm realizing why mine ended up being a safe space. So I did have trauma with men and all the facilitators that I knew were men. And even if they were great men, I knew, I just inherently felt that wasn't for me. the spot for me. I also, and so I chose a couple. It was Michelle and Keith Norris, and they ended up being just beautifully the perfect people for me, working together and, and helping with their unique gifts. I also had heard a friend of mine saying how wonderful her experience was, but that it started by when she dropped in, she went straight into recreating. Not recreating, but re experiencing a case in which she was raped. And she started screaming and being upset right in the middle. And her husband was telling me about the experience that he had had, which is that he felt suddenly so open to all the females in the area, and in that group, and really wanted To be with them and was writing this wave of that. But then he got distracted out by hearing his wife screaming. This is all happening in a living room from somebody that just sort of knew what they were doing. And I thought. No way. Like that is the worst environment for me. I know I take on a lot of people's energy. I know I am not going to open up like that. I know that if that there could be someone in the experience that is feeling suddenly very open to touching me and that I have had problems in the past with setting boundaries. So I know why I'm there is to learn these things, but that doesn't mean I'm there yet. So when I chose it, my questions were. Okay, what happens if someone is emoting? Do I have a place where I can be that is out of their energy because I want them to work through it, but I don't want to take on their trauma while I am open. So I had to make sure there was a place for me to go because I know I am empathic that way. There also needed to be a way that I knew who was monitoring who, like if I, I didn't figure that I was going to want to sit with Keith and when I was. In, in the medicine, he was the person I wanted to sit beside. Michelle would come in and out. And I knew, because we had talked before, that it was important to me to have other females going in and out of my space. And they, they did what they said they would do. We talked about it beforehand and they knew how, and they followed through. So I felt safe enough to, to go into the places where I needed to go. And I think that's just so vital. Yes. And that's where you said something really important is you were able to then, for your body to feel safety around a very big muscular man, right? Like he's as man as you can get as far as a big, like a masculine energy. But when you ask those questions on the front side and you have a man and a woman, it's My question, when I go to South America, if it's only a male presiding from the jungle, most of the time that's because the women won't sit with them, okay? And there's usually a reason why. And so for me, and that's not, that's not a rule, that's not across the board, but if you have historically had things that can make you feel unsafe around any kind of energy, if melanated person, having a white facilitator, if you have trauma in your lineage, Or you were grown in this, you know, you grew up in the States with a lot of systemic oppressive systems that you were around that you experienced, then your physical body cannot feel safe and you don't even know it because you haven't felt safe your whole life, but that's not, it's looking at what can you control? In finding a safe space for you to the best of your ability, what has happened in the past? Consider, like, the times you didn't advocate for yourself, that you thought, Oh, well, they know what they're doing. You will always learn that the hard way. In psychedelic spaces, too. Like, oh, well, they know what they're doing. Ta and I would not take any master teacher substance when we facilitated. Why? Because we wanted to ensure. That we knew what was going on everywhere all at once. And we developed our spiritual, like psychic skills in the spaces, doing our own journey work. Then we started to. assist at other people's journeys so we could learn how to work with those gifts so that we didn't have to take anything to connect to them. The idea you need to consume it through your mouth to enter the space is another construct that's just not true. When you've done this work long enough, there were times I would sit with someone and I, I would feel altered till I walked away from them. Cause like you said, I'm very empathetic, but I didn't know about that. And I'm so grateful I learned it more early on because some of these Ayahuasca centers are doing 70, 80 people. That is horrible for my health. Now, did I learn how to protect my energy more? Yes, but because part of my path as a facilitator, what I would have, I, I could at times help someone transmute stuckness and not necessarily trauma, but ancestral stuckness. I could process through my body, but that meant I could be in a conversation with you and then suddenly I would purge. But it's yours, but I never learned how to not, I couldn't turn it on and turn it off when it was convenient. So I had to learn my boundaries. And so I knew for me that I could do about 15 people that I already knew that I already trusted already felt safe with. So for me to sit, it's because I curated the group. I chose them. I know who my body feels safe around and it's people that have done enough work that their energy is not messy. Most people do not have an awareness because they haven't done the work that is required to understand. Like you remember Pigpen from like Peanuts, Charlie Brown. He was the one that like the dust followed him everywhere. When people are first getting into this work, sometimes they're like Pigpen and they don't understand that their, their trauma, their woundings are just kind of like dusting everywhere. Everybody. But my body responds to that immediately. And a lot of my health things was what I was absorbing from my environment. And I learned that from one of my ceremonies. Where I felt totally fine, blissed out, great place, a woman came and sit like laid on a couch behind me and I suddenly got sick to my stomach. And I was like, this is weird, how did that just suddenly change? So if you're in a ceremony, before you start digging into what's wrong with me, Get up and go to the bathroom. And if the sensations or feelings fade, it's probably not yours. So just that awareness can help you shift out of it. I've watched people lay and suffer for hours because they were too close to someone else and they refused to move. And they kept trying to say, but I don't know what's wrong. I need to figure out what's wrong with me. No, you just need 12 feet away from people. You just need to be over there in the corner. What after I learned that I stayed as far away from the group as was permitted. And then I had incredible experiences and I would stay away from the group for the first like three hours. Then I would read, you know, I'd move in after I'd done my own work. Cause I'm not here to process for you. I wish I would have known that 15 years ago because I I've had people go to some of these larger journeys and experiences and see demons and darkness and scary stuff. And it wasn't even theirs, but they're trying to integrate it when really they're trying They were just perceiving way too much for their system at one time. And so that's how it came in versus if they would have just gone outside, gone to the bathroom, gotten some space, advocated for themselves. It, it wouldn't turn into this kind of like scary mind thing. I'm going to back you up on that a little because I was in my second journey. There was a place where I had, I want to say finished the work because I did go, kind of go back in. I could feel myself consent to come out and for a reason, I didn't know what it was at the time. But I learned later it was someone was processing something and they were a person close to me and they, I, I. They needed support and a part of me agreed like okay I'm gonna pull out of this and I will support you now I could feel what they were feeling and I could tell I needed to be a sort of like grounding place or energy I stood next to them just standing. I didn't touch him. I didn't talk to him. I knew what I was doing, but it was Fascinating for me because I looked around the room and I could see When what she was doing hit other people. I've done work with myself because I work with people. So I'm learning how to use that empathetic empath sort of thing to be able to tune into people's bodies and help them. So I've been building that muscle for a long time. I know when it's someone else's that's hitting me most of the time, sometimes it surprises me, but when it hit other people and they were in the medicine, I could see them kind of like raise up and they would just naturally, they, they just started gravitating over towards where it was and wailing and sobbing along with them. And I was just like, stop, like, this isn't yours. So you need to go like back up, back up. And I just think that's, that's something to be aware of if you are empathetic. Okay, my next question is, and this one's from me. So I see. See ya. Because I have also been raised in religion and left religion, and that's a place where you see a lot of cultural teachings, I guess, happen. I've also been in a natural health care, which is where you see a lot of cultural teachings and rules. I'm, I have an awareness of different groups of people and the cultures that they create within cultures. What I have learned is one thing that I see in people that do a lot, sit with plant teachers or are open to going into altered states in order to have a spiritual life is there is definitely some spiritual bypassing. And I think there also is some addiction that is called going into the medicine or sitting with the teachers. But really is addiction. I have been in places and with people that I love, I love, love, love, but I just wish it was called what it was where we, where something is taken, but then something else and something else and something else is taken. And pretty soon like hoppy is, is a thing that I have heard many shaman use, but it also has nicotine in it as a load of nicotine. So people will take it like once a day for spiritual health and then pretty soon they're taking it every 20 minutes. And I'm like, can we please just call this? Addiction. How can you manage that space where there can be bypassing or there can be addiction or there can be truly sitting with the teachers and maybe doing stuff like copying or taking microdosing? What's the difference between that and addiction or bypassing? So there's a book by Gabor Mete called the realm of hungry ghosts. I recommend anyone read it or listen to it. And I like how he says it in that book that addiction is. When there's long term detrimental consequence. So what that could mean is if someone's doing hape every day it's destroying the lining of your nose. If you're talking all the time very clogged and the times that I, like I joke that hape is like a cosmic cocaine. Now in the jungle they do hape all day every day, like they do. It's a part of their culture. And do I see anything wrong with it? No, it does have a lot of nicotine. Coffee has a lot of caffeine. Like, I, I don't have any problem with people choosing to do what they're doing or why they're doing it. For me, And the people I surround myself with, it's a constant practice of how is this serving me? Is it still serving me now? How has it served me up until now? I'm someone that loves tobacco. If I could smoke cigarettes every single day, I would absolutely do it. I don't even know the last time I had one. Last year maybe I had one. But what I know is that goes against my long term desire for my body, my health, and my vitality. Right? Tobacco is a grounding plant. That's also what is in Hapé. A lot of them. Not all of them. But a lot of them are in Hapé. A tobacco, nicotine, different plants and shrubs and, and things, right? And then they use mapacho in ceremony, which is a tobacco. So, if we remove any judgment of something being an addiction, good for us, bad for us, and we merely say, what is my intention with my life? What do I want to know, do, be, or understand? Is this behavior, choice, person, habit, Putting me in alignment, taking me away from that alignment, how far, and can I accept that? Because I also watch with Hapé, people are overworking with it to ground because they're uncomfortable with feelings and emotions in their body. But then you are forcing a bypass, because in the jungle, they don't work with Hapé to get out of emotions. It's like having tea, you know, like it's more of like a ceremonial, it's more of a ritual. That is a part of day to day life. When you start using it because you need to feel grounded, it's a compensation. How do we get to grounding without like it just within our own felt sense? For me, the second I feel like I need something is how I know I need a break. When I first stopped smoking cigarettes on a daily basis, I never decided to stop. It's because I recognized what it was serving. And I actually sunk so deep into gratitude for tobacco that I was like, holy cow, I've been conditioned that cigarette smoking kills people. For me, it saved my life. There were years that it was the only deep breath I could take. It was the only way to step out of the toxic environments I was working at, or in, or my first marriage, or whatever. It gave me enough space to be okay for a minute. And when I started to really understand that, then I wrote a letter to tobacco and I said, if I'm going to write to tobacco, like it's a person and thank it for all of the times it spent with me, that it was there for me when no one else was when nothing else was when I didn't have anywhere to live, when I didn't know how I was going to come back from something or survive, but that it was time for our relationship to change. Because we were dying together, right? Tobacco's dried. I was drying. I was dying in my existence. And so when I got into health and fitness, cause I actually was a personal trainer and did infomercials and totally flipped to a health conscious lifestyle. I then got tobacco plants that were alive. And I said, now, instead of sitting and smoking you when you're dead and I'm dying, we're going to sit and connect and breathe together and breathe life in together. Because when I exhale, that gives you life and when you exhale, it gives me life. So it was changing the dynamic of the relationship. So it's a, it's a question really for each person to ask themselves. For me, I am not going to surround myself with people that use substances. I am. It's just not, I'm looking for us to be able to connect and grow together. And if there's a codependency versus an interdependency, it just has me change places, whether it's alcohol, whether it's caffeine, whether it's whatever, it's that I want to be surrounded by people that are continually consensual and asking their body, how do you feel about this? How are you doing? You know, that's the difference for me. That is just so beautiful. That's so beautiful. I love the way you said that. Caffeine definitely can be that way. I have been able to, I stayed away from caffeine and coffee. It was like the evil devil killer of adrenal glands, according to what I knew. And now, I don't have caffeine very often. often anymore because I don't really need it, but I had problems with my craniosacral fluid and having some caffeine helped so much. And as it turned out, the form in espresso or coffee was one of the very best things for helping the literal sustainability of my nervous system. And I had to come to the same agreement with caffeine and with espresso like, okay, how can I work with you? How can you work with my body? What sources do I need to get that are cleaner than others? And, and why is that specific to me? And that conversation is just an entirely different informed conversation. Mm hmm. Even, I said that so well. I love coffee. I'm one of those people that But my rule is the second I feel like I need it, that's the sign for a break and I stop immediately cold turkey. Because it's, I, it, to me it starts to be that Gollum energy, that my precious. If it's something that impacts my mood, if I don't have it, I am codependent on it for, for my sustainability. Now, If I get into that awareness and I know like, yes, I know and today this, this I'm choosing to do it for the energy is different, but it's about having that conscious awareness. But typically if I wake up and it's the same with alcohol, it's the same with like, I, I think I had the last time I had a drink was maybe like six weeks ago, two months ago, whatever it was. It's the same with anything I put in my body. Sugar. I have the, the, I have this not addiction, but we'll say I really love these gummy bears from Trader Joe's, these sour Swedish fish gummy things. But the second I woke up, Oh, the, like the devil. Okay. Now societally, we wouldn't call that bad unless you're in health and nutrition and fitness. Right. But my body, I like, I reached a point that I woke up in the middle of the night craving it. I was like, Oh no, nope. See that's already telling me now that it's got its hooks in me. So it's the sign to stop actually. So anytime I feel that hungry ghost like Gabor Mete says that it's, you can't fill that. So the second you start to eat or consume relationships or love or sex or substances to fill something. That is because you refuse to feel something, right? And so that was for me when I just said, I'm gonna remove the good or bad. Because what I actually found out, my body hates stevia and agave. Hates! Not in every delivery of it, but in most products that have it, that are healthy. I get nauseous or I get a headache. And if I would have not had the attunement in tri in, I did elimination diets. I mean, to figure out all my health stuff, I had to. And if you listen to the, you know, episode one, the first part of this, I talk more, a bit more about it. But if I was attached to, yeah, but this is healthy. Versus something is not harmonious in my system. So what's changed, who's changed, or what, you know, what's going on? Because I also went through a period of always trying to make it this deeper esoteric thing. Dug into it for three months just to find out it was a protein powder, or nutritional, nutritional supplement that had stevia extract in it, that was super processed that my body hated. It wasn't processing it well. You know, so not everything is some deeper Like, situation, but again, if you don't learn the language of your body, you don't know the difference, the nuance, and now I can take one bite of food, and for any reason, if my, if I feel resistant to it, I will not eat it. Period. Now, Ta has, he can eat a lot more, he doesn't have near as sensitive as a system of me. Cough, cough. But it, I don't need to know why. I take a bite, if I feel any resistance, I just stop eating, that was a commitment to myself. That solves so many problems if you have a sensitive system. Thank you for sharing. Solves and. It can be annoying sometimes to try to figure out what the heck to eat. But it's better than eating it, forcing it, telling yourself it's healthy and it should be okay and then feeling terrible for hours or days. I have just a few more questions. Another one and I want to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for for giving us. Your time in extra amounts. I appreciate it. Question from one of the readers. Well, from one question from one of the listeners is if you go to a psychedelic experience and you have a really good experience, how, what is a healthy or what's a healthy way to talk to your children about it? If they're teenagers, like I have been in, this is coming from a man that I know and he's had some really good experiences and. He has teenagers that have experienced some depression, some anxiety, some other things like that and he doesn't want them to set their minds against it, but is unsure of what should be told them and how to create that boundary because I, who knows when they are healthy or not healthy for the brain development and just for, you know, how you reference that. Yeah, there are more parents that are, I would say, allowing and supporting their kids to work with psychedelics in a healing capacity more than ever before, or ketamine, when it's reaching the point of, well, are you going to medicate them with antidepressants? Which I have adult friends who have been on antidepressants, anti psych meds, whatever, since they're teens, that as adults, as adults are disabled because of the side effects of these medications. So this is as a parent, if it was me, which I don't have biological children. I have worked with a lot of parents. And so I can only relay my conversations with them and the dialogue. And what if I was a parent, what I know about psychedelics and 15 years of being in the work? In many of the cultures in South America, they start working with children at 3 years old, 4 years old. The women often, even in pregnancy after the first or really after the second trimester, Trimester will even start to introduce once the baby is really established which for them is typically after six months that because that you know first Quarter that first trimester that first kind of like point they tend to not on the flip side of that I know women who microdose through their entire pregnancy now what I do that probably not what I recommend it No But I just know people that have right just to say that and so when it comes to kids when it comes to teenagers I was, I started, you know, exploring psychedelics when I was 17 years old. 16, 15, you know, it's like tried pot when I was 15. Like, so to me, this idea of that we shouldn't talk to him or what's appropriate, you know, your kids. What is their mental capacity for conversation? Be as honest as possible, because if they don't learn from you, it's on Netflix, it's on YouTube, it's on, this is in public domain. And so when you, just like we talked earlier about, you know, like telling kids like where they could drink and where not to drink and things to watch for and concerns and like I had a friend where their daughter went to a party, had some mushrooms, right? She's 16. Because she had already heard her parents talk about set and setting and the sacred, reverent aspects and the other parts, she immediately recognized why she would not do that again. And she came back to them, they didn't know at the time, but she told them after. She said, so I ended up doing mushrooms with friends this weekend and now I understand what you meant by set in setting because I could see that this was not the right place for this type of thing just based off of how my friends were reacting and I guess someone had a challenging experience. And so if they had not already been talking about awareness of their experiences and just sharing their experiences and having that honesty. Would she have even recognized it in that ceremony? Could she have had a traumatic experience? Could she have, you know, like, who knows the, I had the honor of holding space for a friend where the first time we did mushrooms, we had done it together. She had a horrible experience. I, she jokes that she was my first client because I was 17 and she had a terrible experience and I didn't know what to do cause she thought she was dying and all the dark, heavier parts. But we have kids that are, they have access to these things. Your kids already know how to get to it or could through, they would know one person, the kid, they could ask to find it if they wanted to, right? The question then becomes what, why, like really going through the same way you create questions for a facilitator questionnaire. What are your concerns in telling them? What are your concerns in what they might do or not do? What would be the concerns in not telling them and making an informed decision? You know, it's like kids are maturing in different ways now that the kid that I was at 17 is not how most 17 year olds are now. I was already in an apartment. I was already working full time. You know what I mean? It was just a different time, but that's the kind of kid I was. I was like, give it to me straight. Like, let, like, I want the truth. Let me make my decisions. Cause I'm going to do what I want anyway. That's how I was. And I still did listen though, because I was very in tune with the yes in my body and the no in my body. And so it really comes down to your kid. And if they have depression and all this stuff, there's no way I wouldn't tell my kids about it. I would just say, now this isn't a cure. I would educate them in every possibility too. Because if they're 16 now, they're two years from 18. You know what I mean? That's not far. And if it was me and I had a child where I see antidepressants like I see a cast on a broken arm. It is a great support system for a little while, but it can't stay there without degrading or affecting and atrophying other muscles. And that's what happens to emotional muscles in the nervous system. If we just keep casting it, then they actually weaken from it. And so we have to have other plans and tools and support. So I'm not against medicating kids. I couldn't speak to it cause I haven't faced it personally, But I could tell you that if that's what I was facing, I would be as willing to explore in the right set and setting and container for them, someone they feel safe with, someone they trust, or if it was me, as, and even more readily, than I am. A lot of the antidepressants because of what I know they do to the brain. We have research and evidence and all of that. And if I'm going to contrast from all the elders and people I know where their children started working with psychedelics very, very young. It made it different, but the only time I really saw it be a problem is that If a child became so aware, so young, they lost their innocence a little bit. They became so aware of themselves in the world that they would bypass more because they understood it up here, but they had not had the life experience to, to understand it in, in their whole being. And so that's the only time I've seen it really be quote unquote, a problem in development is because they develop so different than their peers. It's isolating. Because it's, you're giving them an awareness that no one else around them has. So they can't relate to other kids. So for me, 17 would kind of be my minimum, like as an initiation into 18, like that's where I feel is what tools and skills can I give them. And then that is actually more part of an initiatory ritualistic thing where I take them to a shaman or healer. I take them to somewhere where it's legal, right? I remove the things that might be the fears. So, it really, I don't know the kid, right? Yeah, I have two more questions. So, one was talking on that same vein about wondering about medic, about interactions with other medications. This is coming from a woman that's studying neuroscience and she sees other medications or drugs effects on the brain and MRI. And, she's like, how do you know what not to take in order to To go into a journey with AYA or psychedelics or any, any of those things. How do you know what you should be on or not on? And if this is too long of a question, do you have any resources that people could check? It's not something they should be asking their facilitator. Asking the facilitator for sure, because it's going to vary dependent on the substance. Now, what I'm going to say, I'm not a doctor. This is not medical advice. This is not recommendation or anything. What I will, what I will tell you Or what I will share from my experience is that something like ayahuasca has way more contraindications and dangerous interactions, potentials, than other master teachers like mushrooms or like huachuma, which is also known as San Pedro. Ayahuasca, because of the brew itself, with, say, anti psychotics, Can be dangerous and create serotonin syndrome and same with MDMA, right? So those are kind of our two main with ayahuasca and MDMA. Those are going to be the ones with the most medical concerns when it comes to medications. If you have medical concerns, then you need to go to someone that's actually worked with those things. Ta and I have worked with people through psychosis. Who no one would work with. We understood that a lot of people's mental health situations are because of their life situations. And that psychosis is actually almost like the body doing control alt delete reset. Like we used to do for our computers to reboot the whole system. It's that they, they, it's overheating. And so it freaks out, resets, reboots, and all they really need is a safe space to lose it. And a week of recovery. Being well fed, well nurtured, and well loved. Now, we don't do that work presently, and I don't know that I'll ever return to it, just because financially, it's really challenging to support people in that capacity, because they need so much, that how do you charge something that's accessible, because usually they can't work, and it's just very complex. But there's a doctor in Oregon, Her name's Dr. Erica Zelfand. She does lots of trainings. So if you're already a medical professional, she has trainings where you can go learn about contraindications and medications and psychedelics. And they're like 300 bucks. Like go just grab the course that works for you. You know, cause that's gonna, when someone's medically trained, you have to feed the monkey mind for you to find a safe space. Because, you know, sometimes what people are trying to do is Overpower their mind. I'm like work with it. Give your brain what it needs. Give your mind what it needs to feel safe. And then find the facilitator that can speak the language so that you can actually allow yourself to be guided. Because you're gonna find, some people will tell you, you can't be on any medications. Dr. Erica Zelfand had the first government approved psilocybin program. She is actually in, she's actually working in a practice. She's actually working with people that are still on antidepressants with psilocybin. Specifically, it's more safe with antidepressants and she says what Tawna used to say, you just have to usually give people more because, you know, the, the antidepressant is cutting the highs and the lows, which means that the psychedelic itself can get cut on the high and the low, so you just might have to give them more, but that there's no innate need for it. Danger, with the mixture necessarily, at least with antidepressants, MDMA is a different story. It's more likely to cause serotonin syndrome, and same with ayahuasca. But, I know people that went down to the jungle and lied, still on antidepressants and even antipsychotics and did ayahuasca, because they said, I'm going to kill myself if this doesn't work, so what difference does it make if I die? Right? And they lied and went, because we wouldn't work with them. And they had a huge breakthrough and changed their life and whatever. So, it's that, this is where, going back to that sovereignty, that rad that radical responsibility to say that. If you're medically trained, then you're probably gonna wanna, instead of worrying about a shaman, you're probably gonna connect more with someone that's worked, worked in, maybe, psychedelic spaces more, but has that deeper understanding of the biochemistry of it. Of the neuro impacts. The recommendations I have, Dr. Erica Zelfand and Sean Wells. He's a dietitian, biochemist. He's one of the world's, probably the biggest formulator for supplements and everything. He does a lot of great sharing on some of the neurological aspects, contraindications, herbs, other neuro support after and even before experiences, and then stacks for after to help replenish. And while you're in a heightened neuroplastic state ways that you can actually extend that or support that more. So, you know, the people are out there, I would say like at the condor approach, we're talking We're looking at the big picture, right? We want to bring all the puzzle pieces to the table. But if you have, we basically want you to bring all those parts and pieces. We can speak to them, but if you want a deeper training. Erika Zellfand has so many incredible courses that you can take if you're more of that style of learner that resonates for you. For us, it's, us is like, okay, we know all these cool concepts, but how do we understand it through the emotional body? We have different layers of logic we break down from body logic to construct to mind to spirit. And so there's, you have different ways of understanding things, right? And so that's where you can bring everything to the table. And because of Todd's not only medical background, but also his fitness and health background, he did personal training and nursing. So it's like a really great way to bring all the parts together, because I would say I'm not an expert of any of them, but instead of going 50 feet into one, I went about 15 feet into a lot because for my own healing journey, I had to, and that gave me the ability to At least, if I don't know the answer, direct you to someone that that is their life's work and what they study. And so that's really, I see myself as the intersection of science and mysticism. Really that bridge from the ancient technology to the future technology, the ancient wisdom to the future wisdom. And so whatever questions it might be, if we don't know the answer, we know someone that at least has researched or studied it more. But at the end of the day, with these experiences. Yeah, at the end of the day with these experiences, you learn that all of these human constructs we assign to them don't actually mean anything. You know, and so for me, we can talk about all the cool concepts of the mind. We can break it down for you so that it quote unquote makes sense just so that you can trust yourself enough to let it all go and feel. That really is the summary of why to do it or why you do it. Oh, beautifully said. Okay, last question. And this comes from a single mom and she's rather petite. So, her question was, I'm interested in doing it, she is a very in tune person, and wants to start gently, but does not have a lot of money to see a facilitator that, you know, may be able to hold her hand and go through it, and also doesn't want to do anything illegal, so she's wondering how you can get ahold of substances that are legal that you can sit with as a teacher. What you're teaching me to refer it to and also how you know what dosage like to start is that point her in a direction or do you just suggest there's don't do that. There's not really a way to do it legally because here's the thing. There's a lot of gray. So it ends up being how willing someone is to rationalize the legality or the boundaries within the gray. So that's the only thing I can really say there is like, break the law to your comfort. Like, because even in places where it's decriminalized, like, you know, parts of Ann Arbor, Michigan, and some of these other places, decriminalized is not legal. I think Ann Arbor might actually be legal. Legalized now? Anyway, laws are changing. But here's the thing. Okay, so it's legal, but you can't buy it. But it could be a gift if someone sells it with a healing session. Or, well, it's illegal to grow it, but you can buy it. Like, there's just, there's all these super weird things. So, if, one, don't, from my experience, If you don't have the resources for support, don't crack yourself open because you can't afford the support if it happens. That means you need to get yourself, start having a savings fund so you can actually hire an integration coach to help you prepare and help you integrate in case. Because sometimes people go into it and it's the only 1, 000 they have or 2, 000 to go on a retreat and they have so much expectation like this has to work. That's why it doesn't. Because it's not how it works. You know, and so my thing would be if someone says they don't really have money to pay someone, then you start to make that something you save for, for when it's time. And then my preparation would be with something like Ca Impathogenics. It's legal. It's called Kana. So Ca Impathogenics is a company that I trust, that I know the owner and that great product. So Kana is known as Nature's Antidepressant. So you still don't want to be on SSRIs, please read the directions on the website, but Kana is a totally legal plant. They are making microdoses, which means in a small stature person, I would start with half of one of their chews. Because at first, just feeling the energy in your body, it's not hallucinogenic, you're not going to see anything. But for more sensitive bodied people, just taking something like Kana and doing a meditation practice or a yoga practice or go for a walk can be. The best preparation for a larger experience later. You are starting to build that awareness. So you're preparing for a bigger event. It's like training for the Olympics, you know what I mean? Like, you're gonna put your reps in and get comfortable with the uncomfortable and increase your awareness. Do something like the Condor Approach. Like, I wish everyone would do 30 days of the Condor Approach book. before they did any psychedelic experiences and then 30 days after. So when you buy it on Amazon, it's like 12 for the book and it has access to a free course. Get proficient. Don't just read it. Live it. Then, when you make an investment into a retreat, it's far more likely that you have developed the strategies and the support for what you can control, okay? Because then that way, even if you, even if no psychedelic effect happened, you will have done enough self awareness to know that that was the lesson, that all of that buildup that you had, like you needed to process all this trauma and do all this stuff. One of my biggest breakthroughs? Was that I needed to stop breaking through things. One of my biggest breakthroughs was if you keep digging in the dirt, you'll find it. It's time to create and look to the stars. Because I was trying to fix everything that was wrong. But I'd done enough work in my life. I'd done enough of support and therapy and all of the things. What I needed was to learn how to welcome joy. What I needed to learn was how do you increase pleasure? I didn't know pain free was possible. Now, I don't live pain free all the time. But in contrast, when I first got into this work, I was just trying to get it to suck less. But the thing that's crazy is as it started to suck less, it started to actually be kind of good. And I was like, holy shit. But if pain was from zero to 10, 10 is the worst suck. Can't get out of bed. Can't live my life. And now I go under a five. That means there's less suck than more suck. What does that mean? I had not even conceived that. I was like, what, what, what, what do you do with no pay? Like, I don't, I didn't know. My work And that shift in perspective does come from the little, like, building the muscles, like, doing the Condor Approach book, checking in with yourself, taking things like that, learning breath work, learning all of the other things. Instead, and that makes life better now. As well as later instead of just you can't skip steps till a big experience and not exactly because you don't have exactly. Yeah. You don't go run a marathon tomorrow, you train for it. And so what if in approaching these master teachers that can be very powerful, you train for it. You prepare for it in heart, mind, body, and soul. You know what I mean? Like if I went tomorrow and tried to go to the Himalayas and go to the, to Mount Everest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make it no matter how much willpower I had because there are physical limitations that require willpower. Working with it. And so the opportunity really is for people, especially if you don't have money, then you Absolutely better prepare for when you do pay more for an experience Because you won't need as much coaching probably, you know You could just have a check in or a group coaching program versus a one to one or maybe you can just join an online No, you're good If you wanted to learn meditation and you just waited until you could go on a big retreat in India You But didn't practice meditating before then, it's going to be hell. That's going to be hell. And it's not like they're going to look at you and be like, Sure, I can fix you in one weekend. That's not how anything is. It's learning to sit in it. So you don't, I think, you don't go to journeys to get out of something. We might. I think we're getting out of something. I thought we want to, yeah, I went cause I wanted to know why I wasn't healing and what was really happening. And I wanted out of that illness badly. But what I learned is with all things that make a difference, it's going in, but going in in a safe way with support and building your muscles. Well and this brings us back to how we kicked off the first part of part one, right? Right. People are now, they've heard these generalizations about psychedelics, who would do it, why would they do it. Now everyone's hearing that it's this miraculous thing, and they want to get out of suffering faster. My friends, that's not how it works. Because it's actually, how do I be with what's here and stop suffering in it. And it's not a magic pill. It's not a silver bullet. Do, have I seen miracles? Absolutely. But as one shaman said down in the jungle, one ayahuasca hero, not everyone who heals from cancer survives it. You healing does not mean that, you know, we have this idea of what we, where we want to be, but our attachment to it is the problem. And you're not probably, Going to completely step into all of that knowing all that unraveling in one night And even if you could that's usually when someone can't function when they come out because they said I just want to get through all Of it and what that actually meant is that their whole world comes crashing down on them. Yeah Cole, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your experience. It will help a lot more people than just You and I, because these questions are real and they're all around us. Thank you for the work that you do in integration. If people want to work with you or learn more, I know we've discussed they can go on Amazon and get your book called The Condor Approach, correct? And then is that the name of your website as well? What's the best way to get more of your work? You I mean, at this point, if you send a courier pigeon in a smoke signal, you're going to find me, but absolutely the condor approach. Take 10 grams of mushrooms. You'll people tell me they see me in there all the time, so I'm going to have to start charging like realm. I'm gonna have to start having like dimension fees because I go into a lot of people's dreams and like tell them how to grow And I'm like, you know, I'm invoicing wrong. I'm doing all this third dimensional. This is no wonder I'm tired I'm working when I'm sleeping, but no the Condor approach It's not hard to find me. You have to literally work to not find me. If, yeah, I have found that if it's correct for someone to work to come work with us, I will cross your path three times in the first 30 days. You'll suddenly see it real for the first time. You never saw me before. You'll suddenly have someone else mention it. You'll suddenly see the condor approach book at a friend's house. You didn't even know I was doing psychedelics. Like if you're hearing the call, you will see the signs of it, whether it's to explore yourself deeper, whether it's to start supporting others. Like if you want to change the world, I want to help you do it. What the offer is depends on when you hit me up. But if you, if you get that call, all you have to do is hit me up because all mushrooms told me is people are going to be hearing the call. You just need to tell them to answer it. And I'm like, what does that mean? Mushrooms are like, you'll figure it out. You know what I mean? Like that's at this point, like, That's my existence. Thankfully and luckily, I've worked in fortune 100 companies to organic marketing, to bands like Lincoln park, to music, to events, to all of these skillsets between that and Todd's medical background. We can actually help people build a business because we've done it. It's not an idea. It's something that we've literally done, something that I'm passionate about in any way that I can help someone fully step into this vision, even if they're not sure what it looks like. together we can figure it out. I love it. Cole, thank you so much for your time. And I just look forward to the next time. However that goes. Thank you so much. And we'll see you next time. I told you it was going to be good. As some takeaway notes, I would say, number one, doing drugs with friends is different than having a spiritual journey. If you're looking for a transformative journey type of experience, it has to do with finding a facilitator that you trust, in a setting that is safe for you, and with proper dosage and follow up integration. You need to ask questions about what's going to happen. And I love that she has free resources to share for that. And that she shared so much in this episode, any of the followup resources will be in the show notes. I've totally got you covered there. So just click on that and off you go. You also need to know yourself and what you need in a space. If you're going to really drop some of the defenses, drop some of the stories and go inside. And it's also very important to set an intention. for the journey that you're going in. There are differences in facilitators y'all. Going to a foreign country in, going to a foreign country is in itself not a guarantee of a good or a bad experience. So know your people the best that you can and ask the most questions that you can. It's the people that help create the experience, the safety that comes from the people. And that's what you're looking for. Number two, be mindful of constant transformational journeys without follow up integration. You can support yourself ahead of time by setting up your integration and setting up your support afterward to integrate those delicious morsels of soul food that you receive. Cole looks at it like getting in shape with a fitness trainer, not as doing one session and then thinking you're one and done healthy. And I loved that analogy. Lastly, I loved her thoughts on codependency. Versus interdependency. One is what we want to move away from, from any substance, and one is just what is. We are all interdependent and this is just a beautiful method that can be used, if you so choose, to help you delve into your deeper mind and perhaps have a transformational experience, but ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. For our next episode, we are going to welcome you back to Body Science and Targeted Help. for a very important area. I brought in one of my favorite mentors, a fantastic doctor, and just a total badass. Her name is Dr. Lindsay Mooma. She's a chiropractor that owns Triangle Chiropractic and Rehabilitation Center in North Carolina. She has so many continuing education credit hours because she studies so many things that she literally, Could wallpaper the walls of her office just so you know that you're walking down the hall of someone that has you covered What we are talking about is one of her specialties, which is the pelvic floor so pelvic floor if you think of it is a series of muscles that That's at the base of your pelvis that are designed to hold your organs in basically think of them like a series of hammocks, muscle hammocks that are kind of laid and connected inside of each other, they connect to the bones, they connect to each other, they connect to other tissues that you have, those muscles are made out of the same type of muscle tissue that your shoulder muscle is, for example, And it can get injured just like any other muscle. It can get trigger points. It can get weak, have pain. It can stop working well. And when that happens, we see problems. So we see problems either in the urinary system. Uh, so many women think it is totally normal to pee your pants a little. Forever and ever after you have a baby. And it's just not true. It's a sign of dysfunction. If your pelvic floor cannot hold that in when you are sneezing or laughing or jumping or lifting weights, and that affects your hip function, your gluteal function, it affects your low back. It affects everything. And that's not just for women either. Men can also struggle in this area. Anybody who has had injuries. For example, being thrown off of something and twisting and landing funny when you hit your hip. Martial arts can do it. Dirt bike accidents, anything where you hit your tailbone or your pubic bone. And I think you will be fascinated to see. What can really happen when this is not doing well, and then what can really happen when it is again? This was a massive piece in my recovery in getting the function of my legs back It's something that I focus on now in my clinic And I basically just drink up all the pelvic floor rehab that I come across so I am happy to share one of my Water sources with you in the form of a constant stream of knowledge and badassery. We'll see you next week with Dr. Lindsay Mooma.