Fostering Resiliency with Cindy Jones

In this episode we learn alongside Cindy Jones, a veteran mental health therapist specializing in trauma, to discuss practical tools and insights for fostering resiliency and regulating the nervous system. Cindy shares her personal journey of turning a professional challenge into an innovative solution, leading to the creation of the Bi-Tapp device, which harnesses bilateral stimulation to help individuals manage their anxiety, stress, and trauma recovery more effectively. She explains the concept of the window of tolerance, highlighting the importance of understanding our nervous system's reactions to stress and offering practical strategies for returning to a state of feeling centered and capable. Who doesn’t need that?! The discussion also covers the benefits of techniques like EMDR therapy and the broader applications of bilateral stimulation in various settings, including schools, first responder communities, and personal wellness practices. Don’t be afraid to re-listen to this one. :)

00:00 Welcome to the Journey of Health and Vitality

01:06 Deep Dive with Cindy Jones: Trauma, Therapy, and Nervous System Regulation

02:59 Exploring the Window of Tolerance and Fostering Resiliency

09:22 The Power of EMDR Therapy and Finding the Right Therapist

17:27 Navigating the Zones of Regulation: From Theory to Practice

31:06 Real-life Strategies for Nervous System Regulation and Recovery

36:58 Unlocking Calm: Bilateral Tapping and Movement Strategies

38:15 Practical Tips for Managing Stress and Anxiety

38:48 The Power of Swallowing and Other Quick Calm Techniques

39:08 Deep Breathing and Mindfulness: When They Work Best

43:25 ByTap: A Revolutionary Device for Stress Management

48:51 Expanding the Impact: From Trauma Recovery to Everyday Challenges

49:29 Personal Stories of Transformation: The Impact of Bi-Tapp

54:37 Adapting to Individual Needs: The Versatility of Bi-Tapp

58:47 Future Directions: Expanding Access to Bilateral Tapping

01:04:00 Reflections and Takeaways: Fostering Resiliency Through Innovation

To order a kit or for any other info about Bi-Tapp, click here:  https://bi-tapp.com/

Coupon code DRBECCA20

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome to the What Really Makes a Difference podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Becca Whittaker. I've been a doctor of natural health care for over 20 years and a professional speaker on health and vitality, but everything I thought I knew about health was tested when my own health hit a landslide and I became a very sick patient. I've learned that showing up for our own health and vitality is a step by step journey that we take for the rest of our lives. And this podcast is about sharing some of the things that really make a difference on that journey with you. So grab your explorer's hat while we get ready to check out today's topic. My incredible guest network and I will be sharing some practical tools, current science and ancient wisdom that we all need, no matter what stage we are at in our health and vitality. I've already got my hat on and my hand out, so let's dive in and we can all start walking each other home. Hello. I am so grateful to bring you today. My conversation with Cindy Jones. She has been a mental health therapist for about 27 years. So almost three decades of experience. And she specializes in trauma. She's worked with individuals, families, agencies, and communities at large. Through some of the hardest times in their lives and bring such a wealth of experience annex. And bring such a wealth of knowledge and experience about some of the most vital things that we can do as we're moving through trauma, or as we're regulating our nervous systems in general. She found that as she was working with individuals, agencies, or companies, she knew there was more that she could be doing to help people balance their nervous systems. Outside of the treatment room. So either if they couldn't afford therapy or if there was just too many people to see, she began to learn about nervous system regulation. And she, and one of her best friends developed a company. Called by tap. Tap. They created Bluetooth tappers. So you can put one on either side of your body and the bilateral stimulation does so much to regulate our nervous systems. She talks about why that's important. What can happen as we're doing bilateral movements, like either tapping or walking or running and how that helps our nervous system balance and why that's even important. We talk about getting into what she calls our window of tolerance, and that is just such good information to know. You know, there's times when we can remember our tools when we can self-regulate when we feel calm, collected, aware, present, and like ourselves. And then there's times when we just cannot seem to remember a dang thing that we know. About how to regulate. She talks about why that is and what we can do to come back to ourselves. I think the theme for this conversation would be fostering resiliency. And really who doesn't need that right now. Right? Who doesn't need that right now? So a few key things to review about fostering resiliency. One is to know your window of tolerance. That window is when we feel like we are. In our calm, authentic self and any other option, whether we go high or we go low, as she talks about makes it so that we cannot really access our tools as well. So I think it's wonderful to know when you are in that state and when you're in your window of tolerance. And then just to recognize when you're out of it. And develop some tools to do so. The by tap tappers that she has created are one of my best tools for helping myself get back into that state. And she shared a code with me, which is Dr. Becca 20 that I can share with you and anybody that wants to check them out can get$20 off. So that's D R B E C C a, the number 20. And you can get 20 bucks off of that. There's also, if you're outside of Utah, a big discount on shipping, there's lots of ways that They are already devices that are well worth the money, but those are some other ways that you can save a little bit more. Other things that you can do if you don't have the buy tap devices are things that are just bilateral stimulation. That means you're stimulating both sides of the body. So going on walks is fantastic. You can even do cleaning. Many of us know the angry cleaning sort of thing, just clean with both sides of your body. And you'll be fine. Just use both hands and you'll be fine. Another thing that I thought was really great to review was trauma therapy The value of EMDR therapy. Again, she was a regional director and coordinator for many years. And I know personally, so many people who've been helped with that technique helps you kind of go into your deeper mind. And also uses the bilateral stimulation. And I want to give another shout out to that and to therapists who are well-trained. And using that technique with individuals, families, or groups. So. without further ado, let's get into it. Here's Cindy Jones.

Track 1: 5:12

I am so grateful to be in the studio today with Cindy Jones. There are amazing therapists in this world that do a lot of good for a lot of people, but Cindy is the cut above even that. She's a person that changed my life and is a person that also teaches other therapists and trains them in trauma specific techniques. And not only that, but one of the best listeners I've ever met. So I'm excited to share her wisdom with you today. Cindy Jones, welcome.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 5:45

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. It's an honor.

Track 1: 5:48

So I'm just going to dive right in with a few questions and we're going to move in through therapy and then we'll also get to talking about nervous system regulation, how we can better be with people ourselves or our loved ones or coworkers when they are in or out of what you call zones of tolerance. And then we'll also talk about a device that you helped invent and that you are marketing to help people specifically be able to speak. Day in a zone where they can learn and process and function. So we have great things to talk about today,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 6:21

That sounds great.

Track 1: 6:23

Okay. First thing I wanted to talk about is. I met you because I think a lot of people can relate and we can work that in through a conversation. So I grew up thinking that if you see a therapist, that meant you were openly admitting you were crazy and that was not a good thing. Like you can be crazy, just no one else can know you're crazy. And I, I know that word crazy is a loaded word if you're talking to a, a real person. Therapist, but that was what I thought and I've heard it so many times and I also heard other things like, you shouldn't see a therapist because you'll just have to drag yourself through the mud. All the family stuff that should be left in the closet, you have to take out and examine. And I believed that. And I only,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 7:08

taught that. I think it's been taught by the generations before. Yeah.

Track 1: 7:13

I think now. What a blessing it would have been if the generations before had had the tools to be able to discuss things like people are discussing now and be able to break out of their patterns. And it sometimes felt muddy, but it mostly felt like taking mud globs off. It take like, it felt like taking weights off and not having to work so hard to slog through the mud. I didn't realize I was already slogging through the mud in. And the reason I say that is because I know there are listeners in the audience that have heard those belief systems and either moved through them themselves and found a therapist if they need one or who are stuck. But I, I have some questions for you that I'm wondering if you can kind of help untangle. So I, since I didn't want to see a therapist, I was working with energy workers or I was working with, um, you know, trying to go into my shadow work, trying to do enough work, like in a religious setting that I just, would believe enough in something else that I could let go of my guilt and shame. Right? There, there's all kinds of ways to, to handle trauma. And I had a lot of it. But the way that I was going about it, I ended up working with someone who had really good intentions. I know her still full of love, really good intentions, but did not really understand trauma. And what happened is I became sort of like dependent on her to feel better. But I ended up ultimately in my life, feeling good. worse and worse and worse. And another friend found me in a pretty bad state, literally picked up her phone and was like so we're going to call my friend, Cindy, dialed your number and you were so kind with me. I was so scared to come in that you literally had me meet with you just to see the office, not to have. I have an appointment, which I still think is such a dear thing for you to do. And then when I walked in your office and I didn't die, I figured that maybe I would have an appointment. And after that first appointment, I figured maybe I would have a second and we rolled through there and it was life changing. My question for you is how can people know if they have found the right therapist or if they even need therapy? Like, what do you, what do you work through on your own? Or what do you show up to a therapist to get? And how do you know that you have the right one? I know some people have tried and they're like, I don't think it did anything. Some people have tried and it's

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 9:44

I think those are great questions. Well, I think it depends what maybe you would be going to therapy for. So, I'll just maybe just say my history and then try to weave all that in. So I've been a therapist almost 28 years, so over 27 and probably the first 17 years I, I was trained in just the therapies at the time, but I just, you know I was a preseason therapist when I was introduced to EMDR therapy and that was literally because I had a client that had such complex trauma. I did everything I knew to do to help her. And then I was just really honest with her that I just felt like she deserved more. then just managing her symptoms. I really wanted to see if there was something out there that could actually resolve them, like resolve PTSD. And she actually went and found an EMDR therapist and she came back and she, she's, it's actually from a client. She just said, you've got to learn this therapy. And so I studied it for probably a year. Cause when I was in graduate school back in the 1990s, long time ago,

Track 1: 10:51

It doesn't seem that long ago. Can I just say, it's weird that that's a long time ago.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 10:56

Yeah. Yeah. But they, EMDR therapy was new enough that it didn't have even a decade of research behind it. It was just new enough. And so there, it wasn't a really a therapy that was well respected at that time. But since then it's, it's become tremendously respected and it's, you know, done worldwide and there's so many different protocols. And so I could just tell immediately that it was a better therapy than I had been trained in as a trauma therapist. And I heard another therapist say this, that it's kinder and because you can move through things more quickly than the old school exposure therapy therapies. And so. When people decide what do I need to go to therapy or not, I would just say if you have unprocessed trauma, there's things that have maybe happened and because those things have happened, you can see maybe how they show up today. How that would be is I can think of a lady, she was in her eighties that I saw and she, she did her best cause back then they, you know, they didn't get help. And when she finally did her work, she realized in her eighties, which is so brave that she needed to call her Children in who were now grandmothers and just do some beautiful repair work with them because she didn't know that life could be so much better. And then she realized she she could have been a mom that was more connected and more engaged. And so she just did some repair work with them. And so I would just say if you're just despite your best intentions, you're still struggling. Or if you have stress patterns that you just can't through even though you really want to, like a, an example, like work I've had to actually do on my own, like as a client on people pleasing then we just have to see where the source of that comes from to reprocess that. Because otherwise You're probably just managing symptoms and I just believe all of us deserve better than that. And so that would be my indicator if someone needs therapy. I think two people can go through the same thing and one might need a little bit of extra help and someone might not. So I think it's individual. And then the second, when you go to a therapist, If you're going to a trauma therapist, then I, I personally would say talk therapy is not enough. Just liken that to if you had a broken arm or something and you go to the ER and they just say, tell me the story of what happened. And, and you tell them the story like, Oh, well, thanks for sharing and your time is up. You

Track 1: 13:11

Yes.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 13:12

you have to have, yeah, yeah. There has to be something more than telling your story. So I think telling your story is important, but if that's the most you get from a therapist, it's not enough. And so it has to be a good fit. I think you have to feel safe and comfortable with that therapist, but they also need to be competent. Because if they're competent, but it's not a good fit, you probably won't go back. And if all they do is help you. feel better, like it's a nice friend session, then you might feel good, but I don't know that you're gonna get the movement. So I think you need that balance of both.

Track 1: 13:46

Yeah. Oh, wonderfully, wonderfully said. Wonderfully said. I feel like a big thing that you said was helping you feel safe and also looking at the support that you're getting. So one thing that I noticed was when I started actually going in to you to skilled therapy work and getting tools, I noticed that I was maybe still experiencing a trigger, but instead of having the trigger like overcome me and take my life off course because I just could not manage it. It at least helped me slow down enough and give me the tools enough to ask why like, or what is here and what is this and when did this start? And I remember making notes. I had to make notes for you every week. Of, okay, this came up and you know, rate it and say, what was driving it and I could start to see my patterns and then we would know what to go work on. And like you said, people pleasing, you know, people pleasing or trauma from specific things. And when I could go in with a skilled person, I wasn't as afraid to go in. And once I started looking at it and repairing it, especially through EMDR means then it's like you were watching it happen almost on, on screen, but with someone beside you and I wasn't going to get lost in it. And I began to trust myself to come through it. And I think that was a massive thing for me to begin to feel was just trust in myself that I won't get lost in something and that there is a way through and that there are people that are trustworthy that can help me. So like you can find your legs a little bit more underneath you instead of getting lost in it.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 15:29

No, that's beautiful. And I, you know, part of what you're describing you got to a point where we want people to get to a point where they know what a trigger is, because those happen unexpectedly. And so you, You can't always prepare. I mean, sometimes, you know, if I go into this situation, I might struggle, but you don't always know when that's going to happen. And so as people make progress, then, then you recognize, Oh, I'm triggered. Some people have reactions and don't even know that's a trigger. So

Track 1: 15:56

Let's talk about it. Yeah. Let's talk about it.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 15:59

Well, if you work with say if I work with someone that's just had a trauma and then they hear a song and then that reminds'em of the trauma and then they're having a huge reaction, but they don't understand it. But their nervous system has linked that song to the trauma. So so part of therapy is. Obviously, we've got to reprocess the trauma, but in between appointments, your, your nervous system is sometimes still overactive to certain things because it's trying to protect you when there's no danger anymore. And so then you've got to have the ability like you were describing to be able to have some tools to regulate your nervous system to get back to where you feel safe and calm and confident. So, cause we don't want people to live in a overwhelmed situation. Your nervous system really can. and I think that's important that people know that.

Track 1: 16:47

Yes, let me just add my extreme hands up, yes,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 16:53

Ha

Track 1: 16:53

to knowing how important it is that your nervous system can recover. Because it's tempting I think sometimes, especially if you know you've had trauma and you know you've tried a bunch of things to get over it and still you're getting triggered. I've talked to many people, not just myself, that felt kind of lost and felt like they might just be screwed up for the rest of their life. And working with you is when I realized. That doesn't have to be true. Part of that is you taught me some tools. So I'm wondering if you can share that with the audience too. You talk about a few things that I found very helpful. One was the window of tolerance. Let's talk

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 17:26

Mm hmm.

Track 1: 17:27

Can you tell me what it looks like when a person's in the window of tolerance or when they're in red or when they're in blue?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 17:33

Yeah, and just Just so everybody knows, this term has actually been around a couple decades, but I think it takes about that long for people to start to like it, to get part of the general awareness. And in schools, they'll call it zones of regulation. So it's actually even taught now, like to preschool, not preschool probably, but elementary school kids up. So then it's beautiful. Yeah, it's great. So what? I love It

Track 1: 17:57

years old.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 17:58

Right. Well, it was to me learning it for the first time in all these trainings because before I had EMDR therapy training I promise you, I just did my best and I, I don't feel like it was bad therapy, but once you find better, you're just like, wow. And so that's how I felt and that's actually the first time I learned about the window of tolerance. It was actually in this training. initial training. I've had several since then, but it just was a game changer for me. So what it means is your window of tolerance you can call that the green zone. It's just, it's the level, it's what you can handle in terms of stress during the day, like it's, it's your ability to tolerate the stressors coming at you and the different things you've got to deal with every day. And it actually fluctuates. So if like, say last night you had kids that were sick all night and then let's just say you had a full day of work and then you're doing a podcast, then your window's going to be more narrow than if your kids are doing well. I see what I mean. So it just changes. But But if you're chronically have a window of tolerance that can't manage very much, then what it means is you're going to be dysregulated more often or if burnout sets in, then it's just hard to get back to that window. So green just means if I was thinking about. Let's just take it about students or children. It just means they can engage in learning. They'll listen to you. They're they can manage their emotions. They have flexible thinking. And that's actually would be for adults too. So if you're talking to someone and they're engaged with you, they're paying attention, like we're both in green right now. And so this conversation is just so important. It's just has a nice flow because we're both in green. So if someone goes into red just think of it like zero to ten. So zero, one, two, three, that might be light red. You can probably still manage and get back into green, but if it goes higher, things are probably going to go south pretty fast. And so that would just mean if someone starts to get trigger, trigger would be red. It'd be sympathetic nervous system activation going to start to go up. It would be if you're angry, it would be if you're anxious, if you're overly stressed. And so when that stuff starts to happen, you're going to have a harder time, even if you've been taught really good coping skills, to even remember what to do. At lower levels red, you'll tend to Be able to pull them up but higher just think about when kids are really upset and then you're like take a deep breath and they're like shut up like it's just yeah I can't! so they're thinking it's really rigid like I can't do that and they get upset but adults do it too so red is just an over activation. We need it if we're actually truly. in stress, right? In danger. Like if there's a dangerous situation, we need that fight or flight to kick up. But if, if it's not that we want to help it recover quickly to get back in that window of tolerance, because that's where everybody functions at their best. And then no one goes, no one drops down into, it's called hypoarousal or the blue zone. So it goes, green is in the middle and then red's above it. Everyone goes up and then down would be the blue zone. And so if people are like, what does that mean? Well, in trauma, it means fight flight is up and then freeze would be the blue where you just think of like a rabbit sees you like it, it freezes. Like that's, that's blue. But for us in everyday living, it would be if you've had a really stressful day, whether it's just with your kids at home or at work, And you come home at night and you just really don't want to engage. You want to kind of be alone. You don't, you just, you just kind of want to do your own thing, but it means isolating. It might mean that you eat, you know, overeat. It might mean that you binge Netflix for five hours. It just means you're dropping down and you're just really not probably engaging in things that are connecting or very helpful.

Track 1: 21:44

I love that you're delineating that out into normal movements we might, into normal movements. Normal activities that we might see people do because when I think freezer fawn, I think of when it goes a little further than that and say autistic kids when they kind of like drop out and go in defense mode or they numb and cannot speak,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 22:05

Mm hmm.

Track 1: 22:06

and can't function. Or I think of like my nervous system got so dysregulated later in life because of illness and a bunch of other things. that I would literally just start to lose power in my limbs. So it was like a sincere shutting down. And I've learned that is more common than I realized that there's the, okay, now I need to calm it down, which seems like a, kind of more responsible blue zone, but then it can drop further into now I'm going to disassociate and further into now I am not going to move. Now there's like the lights are not on in here. So I guess a gradient in the red and in the

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 22:48

Yeah, that's right. So if the green is say zero and then zero to 10 up and zero to 10 down, then I think most people can manage zero to three pretty easy because nobody's, you know, kumbaya on it all day long. So we can manage some distress up and down. It's just if it stays up too long or drops down. The other thing I would just say is people that have had a lot of trauma, nobody goes green to blue. So even if you go up for a blip, Your nervous system knows how to shut stuff down really fast, and that's people that have chronic trauma. And that's, that's a little bit what you know, can happen, like where you just feel disabled. And that's just your nervous system. It thinks it's protecting you. So if you think about. a gazelle and a cheetah. Like if a gazelle is running, it's running because that it's not going to fight a cheetah. Like instinctively it knows, so it's running. But then if it gets caught, it flops over as if it's dead because it it's actually its best chance at survival. And so our nervous systems doing similar things, but we're not at that level of danger. And so that's why we want to make sure as a trauma therapist, if that keeps happening, then we, I personally believe then let's, let's get under there and see what's, what's driving that. Let's get to the root of it. And I would never say. that you shouldn't do energy work or anything else. I think everybody has their piece and I feel like if anyone, including therapists, say they're the answer for everything, I don't believe that's true. I think we all work together and I think everybody working together, then a person can find out really what is the best fit. I don't think anyone has the answer. We're all working together and I think that's important to say. And then I just think as you you. As you spend more time in green, you'll actually recognize quicker when you're in red and take action to get back into green, because if you don't, your stress patterns, habits will kick in to like help you to help you settle down. So for example, if I get too overwhelmed, if I don't manage that quickly, then I'm actually going to start procrastinating. That might be me surfing on the internet or something, but I will not be doing what I need to be doing to be productive. And that would be what light blue looks like for me. So the sooner I can manage that, the less time I spend out of my window because everybody's their most productive, best self in green. Mm

Track 1: 25:12

say to one thing. To circle back to that, to no one therapy of any kind being the answer for

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 25:21

Right.

Track 1: 25:22

is that, I think doing some of the work that I was doing before with someone who was well intentioned but maybe not as knowledgeable was that I did end up getting in dysregulated states and then I would need to depend on her to bring me out of them. Where the difference in that versus someone who's very skilled is that I felt like you were coaching me how to bring myself out of it. Coaching me by being there with me and helping me if I couldn't do it but helping me understand So that, again, I could have my legs under me.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 25:56

Yeah, I think you've, I, I just know that people, I mean, people need to have the ability to self regulate and know how to do that. But at the same time, if someone keeps dysregulating, then we know something's underneath it. So like if a doctor is working with someone, they're just getting like a, It's like a chronic infection, and they think it's at the tip of their finger, but if they follow the red line, they'll, they'll actually see where the source is. So that's a little bit what we do in EMDR therapy. So we're not healing anybody. We're just facilitating treatment. We're facilitating healing that takes place when, when you can do it. Like if I go through something stressful but I'm in my window, I'm probably okay. So it's just being able to just those times when it was too big. Trauma just means it was too big for me to handle whether someone thinks it's too big or not. If, if my nervous system said it was too big, then, then that's feedback for me that I need to look at that and it's okay when that happens because I think it happens to all of us.

Track 1: 26:53

I have a confession to make. Every time that you said window of tolerance, and still, I'm giggling now because my mind is doing it again. I like love the matrix so much that every time you said window of tolerance, I pictured an open window and I could see Trinity from the matrix, like running and jumping through the window, right? Like it's, it's free passage. And every time you talked about being above that window in the red, I pictured, like, as if I was Trinity and I was running towards that open window, but it was closed and I'd, like, bash my head on it, like, ah, that didn't work. And every time we talked about the blue zone, I pictured, like, if the window then, like, the bottom of it had dropped out where there was just nothing to do. And then everybody's freezing in the room. And that was a part of how I gauged, honestly, if I was in my window of tolerance. Because what we would do in our family. before I met you was if someone was dysregulated. Like one of my children had a big problem with anger when she was little. And if she was angry or upset, A, I had my own things to deal with about that. Like my own judgments on myself as a mother, if she was angry or judgments about what anger was, if that was acceptable or not acceptable. Right. And I learned how to come back. to look at myself before I reacted to her. That was another gift I got in working with you. But also what I did, what we would have done before we met you is try to coach her out of that, in that moment, like try to talk to her about it, figure out what was going on, help what she needs. And she'd be like, just a mess in front of us and super even more annoyed that we were trying to talk to her and figure it out because then she'd feel even more powerless. And when you coached me into what red brain looks like and equated red brain with a stop sign, like if I'm talking to someone and they are dysregulated, I stop like emotional safety. A in that relationship has stopped because they're likely to say something that. They don't mean,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 29:04

that's when we all say things,

Track 1: 29:05

Yes. And so it was a stop for me like, whoa, do not engage in that way. Don't solve it. But the other stop sign was don't try to solve anything right there. And when I learned it also with myself, like I am in red, this is what is happening. My head is hitting that window. I. I'm not my, I don't have my full capacity. When I learned to stop and regulate instead of trying to shame myself back into the window or just power through back through the window, my gosh, like hours were saved of what it takes to fall completely apart and then have to repair and then go back and redo. Yeah. I, I feel like learning that I thought I was wasting time by not trying to fix it quickly. It turns out I was wasting time by trying to move too quickly through it instead of just listening to actually where I was and learning how to bring myself back into the proper zone where we actually have our mental tools and our resourced wiser self.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 30:08

Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of research now because they can see what happens, you know, to our brain when we're dysregulated. And so when you're calm, the left and the right hemispheres, they're like, Right now they are just working together communicating just seamlessly. But when you get stressed that it's the amygdala, it's you got one on each side, but it's, it wants to like, take over in the driver's seat. And so when that happens, even if you just make it about test anxiety, you Even if someone's super well prepared, but that test anxiety gets too high, they actually can't remember what they studied. And that's just because that thinking brain is not in the driver's seat. And so like with your daughter, that's why she couldn't come up with solutions and answers because that part of her brain is actually not working very well. And so if we can help her. yourself, all of us just regulate first, then that, see, then that thinking brain comes back online and then they can actually engage in a more productive conversation.

Track 1: 31:06

So how do we Regulate. We know what it looks like now if someone has gone up. We know what it looks like when someone goes down. Oh, before we talk about regulation, I wanted to ask if you've gone down into the blue zone, do you have to pop back up in the red and know that's kind of coming to get regulated? Or can you go straight from being perhaps like disassociated or wanting to step out just back into regulation?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 31:30

I, I've seen both in my office. You know, if I'm working with someone that's had trauma and they go from, it's fine and it was okay to anger. I see that as healthy. Like they're not going to stay in anger, but, but that's a more appropriate response than the flat, everything's fine when it's completely not fine. And so,

Track 1: 31:51

I had to learn how to do that. I did not know how to be angry. In fact, I remember when you said, Becca, we we needed to get my sister here because she is my most trusted confidant. And I remember we waited and you said, well, once you learn, or once you address your anger, we'll be able to make some headway. And I'm like, I'm not angry. I remember looking at you like, what? I'm happy. I'm fine. And you were like, okay, well, When your sister's here and we address your anger, I'm like, I'm not angry. It's fine. I don't ever feel angry. It's fine. And whoa, when we got there, there was an atomic bomb of anger.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 32:28

and that's just a protector part, you know, trying to manage things for you. So it's trying to be helpful which at some point in your life, it probably was adaptive and helpful. But then as we are in our adult selves we want kind of like a computer update. We want to update our systems so that your authentic self can take the lead. But in everyday living, I think people can go from blue to green. And so if you're in blue. If it, if it's really dropping, it's probably going to be hard to want to do anything that's healthy. Right? So if you have a choice between eating this kind of food or something healthy, it's just easier to choose the creature comfort stuff. So it's just harder to do the things we've been taught. But if you did have a good friend or family member that you could just go for a walk, okay. So, when you're in blue, it's, it's harder to, high red is the same, but let's talk about blue first. It's really hard to do anything, that you know is healthy to do. So to get out of blue, what seems to be the fastest, it wouldn't be to read books. See what I mean? You can't absorb, you can't absorb anything. And so movement. So if you could get outside would even be the best movement. and connection are the two things that seem to help people start to come up. So connection doesn't have to be a person. It could be connection with a, an animal, like if you have a dog or a cat that you love. Connection could be in nature, but if you could just, and connection with a person obviously is great. So if you could just connection and movement, that would be great. And if you can't do movement outside, maybe it's bad weather, then you can stretch and do a few things You know, wherever you are, but those two things will help you the very most get out of

Track 1: 34:11

You were the person that first taught me that and can I

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 34:13

yes. Mm

Track 1: 34:16

and different arenas of my life over and over a mentor of mine was talking about the most effective things for our longevity and our nervous system regulation, he said, exceptionally smart neurologist and he said, people often get it wrong. We think if something is not feeling okay with us, we probably should take more supplements or eat more. And he said, you can eat. All the organic blueberries you want, but if you are upset at your boss, and you're upset at your Relationship, and you're eating organic blueberries by yourself angrily in the kitchen It is not going to do nearly as much as it is if you grab a friend you go for a walk You talk about that boss and that situation and work through maybe what to do Or somebody is just with you as you're moving. It does so much better. And then when you come back to your kitchen, you can eat the organic blueberries.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 35:09

That's really well

Track 1: 35:10

the movement and connection is first. Sometimes when I as we learned this and applied it, my husband, knew, started to know what it was like when I looked like I was getting overwhelmed and I was dropping

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 35:23

Mm hmm.

Track 1: 35:23

I love to dance. So he would put on music and if it was bad and I didn't want to dance, he'd be like, just shoulders, Becca. And he'd do it like, and look goofy.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 35:34

Huh.

Track 1: 35:35

kind of make me mimic him a little just to start to move. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 35:46

That's, that's beautiful, like, because he's there and he's doing it. It's like what you would do you know, if a kid was struggling, you're, if you can stay in green with them, if you can stay in green, they're hopefully through mirror neurons too. They're just going to start to to start to naturally gravitate towards green. But the movement and the music that you love, see, that's all beautiful. That's wonderful if you're going up. So just remember, everybody goes up before they drop down. And so if you start to go up, you just really want to pay attention. What does it mean to be in red zone? So for me, it would mean, I can tell that my heart rate's starting to get faster. And also I just start to feel overwhelmed. Those are my low. If I'm starting to feel overwhelmed, then I know I'm starting to leave my window of tolerance. And so I, as a trauma therapist, I have played with the order of how, like what's going to help someone the very most. And so people can give lifestyle, lifestyle advice. advice, which is good. I mean, obviously if you are working out, if you're getting enough sleep, if you can't sleep, if you're stressed, you're not going to sleep as well. But you know, and you have connection, you have hobbies, like they say all the things to do. I think those things are true and they're important, but in the moment, what can you do? And the very best thing you honestly can do is it's called bilateral tapping, or you can, you can call it bilateral coordinated movement. So walking, would be bilateral coordinated movement. But the reason why is when your nervous system's calm, your left and right hemisphere, they really are just there working together. And that middle part, it's called the corpus callosum. It's just like a telephone. It's just transferring information to the different parts of your brain. When you're calm, that happens like seamlessly. It's just happening in the background. But when you're stressed that that actually, It's just think of like you're driving, things are great, and then you hit the emergency brake. Well, we want to put the brake down if we don't really need it. And so if, and we'll talk about tappers later, but if you don't have tappers, then you, if you can just move your feet. even just in your shoes. No one has to know you're doing it. Just wiggle your toes back and forth. That actually is a signal to your brain that I'm stressed, but I'm safe. It has to register safety. And so if you can do that, or you can tap your hands back and forth on your thighs. Some people would say a butterfly hug where you cross your hands and you're just tapping back and forth. But if you're in public, you're probably not going to do that one. But if you can move your feet back and forth, that'll actually help you start to calm down. The second one is movement. So if I'm teaching, say college kids or high school kids, get ready to take the ACT and they're smart, but they have test anxiety. Then I just teach them that. So if you come across something difficult, just start tapping your feet. Back and forth, or put your hands under the desk, start tapping, because that settles you down. And then from there, just do movement. So if they're in a situation where they really can't get up and walk around, they could shrug their shoulders, they could stretch, they could move their legs out, because if you can move voluntarily, your nervous system knows you're safe. And so, and then the third thing is swallow. And there's a lot of research that if you can swallow, so maybe if you had water next to you or something, just take a drink, and it actually settles down that parasympathetic activity pretty fast. If you didn't, then I would chew gum. If you're in a setting where you can't, that's not appropriate, or you don't like gum, then you just have to make yourself swallow. So those three things, I think are the number one thing you can do to settle it down and then from there, of course, deep breathing, connection if you have a mindfulness practice, all those things are good, but you won't do them if you're too heightened. And if people like that's not true, I would say ask someone that's had a panic attack in the middle of it. Can they take a deep breath? And the answer is they can't. So, you just have to have something just to take it, the edge off each way, and then as you get going back in the right direction, which would mean back in that green zone, I would say then any other skill you've been taught, you'll have greater access to because then the part of your brain that remembers that stuff is now available to you.

Track 1: 39:48

Ah, I'm just going to repeat that again. You'll have greater access to the skills you've already been taught. So it isn't like you're a failure or you're dumb or you just want to be sick or you just want to be mad. We literally lose access to what we know. And so the most important thing is to get back to where we have that access. I don't even know how many meetings I have. I have Squished the bottom of my feet to the,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 40:16

Mm hmm.

Track 1: 40:17

to the bottom of my shoes slowly one and the other. Literally, sometimes it was all I could think about and just let the words of the meeting go over me. And I knew that was my fastest way back online and then to jump in and be myself. Yeah.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 40:34

and the, there's so much brain imaging now, they can actually literally tell what the brain is doing at different times. And, and really if that nervous system is over active, they can prove it. You cannot access your higher learning at that moment. So for me, the biggest thing, so someone might say, well, can you just do the five senses? Like, can you just look around and name five things? You can, unless you're too heightened. And if you're too down, you won't, you don't care. So, so you've got to, but I'm not doing that. And so. So yeah, it works within a range, but then if you start to get out of that range, these things work better. And as you start, as you get better at it, even myself as a therapist, if I have a pretty angry client, dysregulated client, if I can tell I'm starting to dysregulate because sometimes it's hard to stay in your window under certain situations, then I, even if I have a full glass of water, I'll just say, you know what? I'm going to actually, I'm going to get some more water. Would you like some? I have a water cooler in my office. And The reason I'm doing that is because I'm bilateral. That's first move and then it's movement and it's taking a drink of water. And then when I sit down, I'm much better able to stay regulated in a really difficult situation. And we're actually teaching say like secretaries in schools. Just situations that can be stressful, like maybe a parent comes in really upset. Well good luck with that meeting, right? And so now we're learning to say, they're learning to say, you know what, here's a drink of water. Maybe they'll hand them a bottled water or maybe they'll say there's a drinking fountain right there if you'd like to get a drink and then just come back and sit down and then they'll be with you. That little tiny intervention actually takes a pretty big edge off for people and then they're better able to participate in the meeting

Track 1: 42:18

Oh, that's beautiful.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 42:20

without knowing that's what the secretary just did. See what I mean?

Track 1: 42:23

Skill set! And when I did my TED talk I remember when I was preparing, I was doing a speech in Colorado and I was talking about how often people like will clean when they're angry. Like that picture you have of like a mom scrubbing something when she's like, ah, I was like, it's fine. If you clean, just clean with both hands,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 42:42

That's

Track 1: 42:43

right

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 42:43

it's really good.

Track 1: 42:44

left hand sponge, like whatever's working, just do it both sides.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 42:49

Cause the brain does that anyway, right? It's it, that's the movement the brain does when it's calm. So we're just introducing that. So either think about it as if you're in a stressful situation. So even if it's say it's just a presentation that could be stressful. And so you want to be your best self. So some people are going to use these skills to manage before a stressful situation during or after. So it can be supportive. Right in a difficult moment, but it also can just help someone re engage too. So it can do both. Mm

Track 1: 43:22

what you devised that helps this. I know you were doing EMDR that involves bilateral tapping, and then you came up with a device called ByTap, and I think it's so great that it has grown so big and so powerful. and is helping so many people because I was there when you had the little like demo stuff. I still have an original. So tell me, tell me what this, I do, I have a relic. Oh, that's weird. I'm old enough to have a relic in anything really, but I was born in the eighties so there's lots of them now.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 43:55

Yeah, there you go

Track 1: 43:56

So tell me how this came to be, what you saw was the need and what this fills.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 44:01

Well, part of EMDR therapy does involve bilateral stimulation. So you're either going to be doing eye movement or if people can't tolerate that, or just say you're blind or something, I mean, you can't do it, then there's other reasons why people can't. Then then you would switch to tapping, bilateral tapping. And some people actually now do auditory BLS and they can wear headphones and there would be like a tone going back and forth. But. So it is part of the therapy for sure and there was older equipment devised a long time ago, probably in the, I'd have to look late 80s, early 1990s, because if, if I'm the therapist and you don't want to do eye movement and you don't want me to tap on like the sides of your, knees, which is under some people just don't want that, which is understandable. Then they came up with devices that, that did the bilateral stimulation. But, but now fast forward to me and I was in Cedar City and I'd have to count probably seven or eight therapists and working in the private practice of mine. And I still kept a full caseload because the needs are so high and the waiting list for everybody. Oh my gosh, just months. And so you just feel as a provider, just the burden of that because you know, you can't give more than you're giving, which is everything, but the needs are still off the charts. And so one of the things that would happen is if people came into my office, dysregulated with the older equipment, I would just mess with it a little bit and I just turned it lower and handed it to them. And then I just visibly saw them. Calm down. Like I'm not even having to say take a deep breath as they calm down They then took a deep breath. See what I mean? So I just saw that over and over and the lady that was that was like the office administrator She's doing all the billing. She's the one fielding all the calls. It's Haley and just Just people so desperate and so frustrated because even if we referred out everybody was full I mean, it's just now think about the way the world is today. So it'd be ten times that and She's actually the one see I'm in the forest. I can't see through the trees So it's the one that's like can take the bigger view and she just said I think we need to look at Bluetooth those and make'em tap because tapping is just feels more nurturing and gentle. And she just says, I think we need to make'em tap and we need to have this, the general public have a way to self-regulate. Like, you can't just, you just make, we gotta make it easier for'em.'cause everyone knows what to do, like exercise stuff, but people aren't doing it'cause they're too. out of their window. And so it actually came from a non therapist that saw the,

Track 1: 46:38

love that.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 46:39

great story that just saw the bigger picture. And then she and I went and met with some engineers and just pitched that idea. And and then we just went from there and just early on, I think it went to market November, 2017. And the month before at that time I was the regional coordinator for EMDR therapists in Southern Utah. And there was that concert, the mass shooting in Las Vegas. And so I was working with them on a large scale because that's a high level of trauma when you think you're going to a concert, right? And then everything goes south. And so even people that weren't drinking that weren't drinkers were starting to drink and drink heavily because you can't stay in a dysregulated state like that and traumatized state and, and then try to sleep and try to function. They still had to work. They still had to be moms. I mean, it was just a. turning their lives upside down. So they were getting therapy. And even if I saw them say two or three times a week, which I was on top of a caseload it just wasn't enough in between sessions cause the trauma wasn't fully reprocessed. So individually I talked to them and I just said, I want you to try the tappers to see what, what they'll do. If they'll help you sleep, help you recover from triggers, help you focus at work in every single one of them. came back and was doing so much better. So I don't, I would never say the tappers replace therapy, but what I will say is it's a phenomenal regulation resource. And the reason why is because it just that you can hold or wear the tappers and it's doing it for you in the background. Like it's just kind of like how our heart works. you know, how our heart rates just all of that's happening in the background. It's just doing a regulation in the background that you don't have to remember to do, which is phenomenal. Cause if you think about little children, like infants, you can't teach them coping skills. You just have to regulate them, right? Like through rocking them, cooing them, soothing them. So think of your nervous system that way. Like, what if you can have something that just simply can regulate your nervous system, so then you can actually function at a higher level. So these are now being used for sure after trauma, but they're being used in schools to help kids focus, to improve reading scores, test scores I understand the wellness rooms and I'm, I'm for them, but the longer kids are in the wellness rooms, the less time they're in the classroom. So see, then they're getting behind in learning. So what's really great is the kids really struggling of all ages can actually take the tappers with them back in the classroom. So they have a regulation resource throughout the day if they need it. And that's a really big deal. So we're pretty excited about just all the things that are coming from having a simple regulation resource.

Track 1: 49:27

Yeah. Oh, so beautiful. We actually got a set of those for my son who is on the spectrum and struggles a lot with test anxiety. He is brilliant, but he would walk in and feel that time pressure and know he had to finish on time or Dot, dot, dot, dot, snowball, snowball, life is over, I'm never going to college, I'll never have a family. Like, for this like, fourth grade, simple math test. And no amount of me talking or giving perspective was really helping very much, because he knew it would be okay before he walked in, but

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 50:04

just in the moment,

Track 1: 50:06

yeah. So we got him a pair of tappers, and he didn't want to like, Seemed like the weird kid with the tappers, but he also, yes, but he also thought it was cool that he got to have a toy and he could slide them one in each pocket and it helped him. In fact, he was talking about it just the other day when I was saying I had talked to you on the phone and he's like, Hey, I need to find those. He's a senior in high school now and has obviously learned how to do that, but he's got, you know, big tests, big things coming up. So he's actually just started to walk around with them again. Which is so

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 50:39

that's good. Because in even universities, there's I mean, we've just, we're just starting, but they're, they're more regularly being approved, like in testing centers, because it's just like your son, if you know the information, but you can't regulate, dial down that anxiety in the moment. And even if you take it out of school, there are professionals that need to advance in their career that because of test anxiety, they're not able to. And, and so this is something that can help them. No matter your age. And I think that's beautiful. And so what we've done that's different than other stuff is their Bluetooth, but you pair them to the app and a bi tap app, and then you can adjust the speed and the intensity of the tapping that you like, like what your son likes and what you like will probably be different. Right. Very different. And then, then like for me during the day, I actually use them for focus and cause I have a sprinkle of ADD and it just helps me focus so much better. And I actually put them in my socks. And then if I'm presenting and I can tell I'm nervous, then I have them in my pockets. And I actually use them every night for sleep. And so, cause I'm closing in on 28 years as a trauma therapist. And so not, yeah. So sometimes I can't sleep very good cause it, it does affect you. I mean, you know, it's just secondary trauma. I don't see it, but I hear it. And

Track 1: 51:53

And you hear it in a really raw, vulnerable,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 51:56

Mm hmm.

Track 1: 51:56

way. I mean, if you think about if, if you talk to a friend and they witness something traumatizing and you sit with them, those are conversations that I remember forever. You do that every day on the hour. I think,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 52:09

Well, yes, I, yeah. And so then sometimes I can't sleep as well. So then I just learned like and that's what first responders are doing too, because their sleep is usually compromised, but so they can just turn the, the rate of speed and tapping down lighter and just think about helping a baby fall asleep, like just in a rocking chair. So your nervous system, it really can't ruminate. and follow the tapping. So the lower part of your brain is actually the boss. And so, and if people are like, that's not true, willpower is the boss, I would just say, well then let's just walk into a theater together and you choose not to smell the popcorn. Right? Like, your sensing brain really is the boss. And so, so it just notices the tapping. But then because it's moving, you're nervous. I mean, it just, it follows it. And in following it, it just settles down that part of your brain that's upset in the simplest way. And the truth is we've been engaging in bilateral movement, like crawling. See what I mean? Or people that you've got to cross the midline, like it's just part of our everyday life, but we just through just the advancements and understand how the brain works, we, they just now can prove that bilateral stimulation inhibits the amygdala. And to me, that's beautiful because it's. You can just use it right in the moment you need to and it's non pharmaceutical and it's non invasive and I think that's beautiful. And if you ever didn't have tappers and someone was really upset or really down, you could just say to them, Do you mind if I tap back and forth like on your knees? I have, I know moms that have actually done that with their kids at dental appointments who the kids were terrified. They're just down by their ankles, just tapping back and forth. You know, before the tappers were created, now they can actually hold them or wear them. But so it's just, you can use them anytime you know you're going to be distressed or in the moment when it just happens and you don't have them, you still know the skills. I can tap my feet back and forth, do a little bit of movement, take a drink of water, and then that should be enough to bring that down that then anything else, you know, to do that works you can do.

Track 1: 54:09

When, before we had the tappers and when I was just learning this with you, I remember trying to find like ways to devise helping my kids with it without them knowing that I was helping it because if they knew I was doing a therapy thing, no. So it was like, I would just hold their hands and look like, look at their eyes and gently squeeze one hand and the other just gently or put my hands like on, on their back and gently rub in my thumb on one side and then my thumb and the other side. I have a question though. So. You were right about my son and I liking the tappers in different ways. He likes them to thump hard and to move kind of fast. When I start to get dysregulated, I feel like I already have so much. It feels like I'm like, ah, already like my nervous system wants everything off. And so sometimes the tappers are hard for me to hold because I'm like, I can't handle any more vibration. I can't handle any more touch I don't want anybody to touch me. I don't know what to do. But I have a hard time sometimes when I'm. especially used to have a hard time when I'm going into a real red brain response with having any more stimulation. So what do you do in that, in that case?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 55:18

Are you going up fast?

Track 1: 55:19

Usually it's like, it's, it's usually that I haven't been paying attention to the signs of like the clench that is coming and then all of a sudden,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 55:29

I think as you get better at noticing the signs. Does that make sense? The more you spend in your window or your, you know, just that zone that you can tolerate, the more you can actually tell when you're out. So if, if that doesn't work, if, again, I would say the same thing on the top end, if you could do some movement and if you can't on your own, if someone would just be able to just like what you said your husband did, just any type of movement, because if you can start to move your nervous system, it just, it kind of registers that things are going to be okay.

Track 1: 56:02

Okay. So

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 56:03

So I think movement or maybe if you, cause you like music. So if you could just hit a button to play the, just have that favorite song dialed up and just tap that. And maybe just that starts to just help a little bit. Do it's called a state shift to start to calm down. You know, or if someone's, if you had like a oils that you liked and you could smell. Just something that was pleasing to you, that alone, that olfactory smell, that's actually pretty, pretty strong and pretty good. If you could find a smell you like to,

Track 1: 56:32

Okay, so it's like move or do something with your senses, something like find out how you work, which is kind of the theme of life in general. Find out how you work and then once you can remember a little more or handle a little more than the bilateral tapping could work, cause I know some kids don't want to be touched either or some adults don't

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 56:51

think, well, I think if you, but if, here's what we tell the schools, if we're working with elementary schools, middle school, high school, if you front load the kids when they're calm, then it's different than if you're showing it to them for the first time when they're dysregulated.

Track 1: 57:07

true.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 57:08

You know what I mean? So if they see it ahead of time and they can mess with it and they understand it, then, then the odds are higher that they'll not be like, get that away from me. But it also works. Like there's, you know, Haley's son. It's pretty funny when he was little, he used to get mad. And so sometimes she'd say he knew about the tappers. I mean, she helped create them. So she said, she said, you know what, you want to hold him? He's like, Actually, I don't. I want to stay mad longer. And when I hold him, they make me, they make me calm. So, so he articulated that in a video. It's so funny. It's so funny. Yeah. So it does work. And if they want to stay mad longer, it's okay. But if you introduce it to them when they're calm, I think the odds are higher that, that it will, They'll not be as resistant when they're distressed, but they still might, because when you're in high red, just think of rigid thinking just inflexible thinking, you know, if you're, if they're like that, they probably aren't going to, and that'd be true with adults too, they're probably not going to let you do anything, and I know one agency that works with at risk kids, they have tappers, and This kid was totally dysregulated and the worker tried to introduce him and he, he actually threw him over the fence because he was so mad. So they went and retrieved him and then as he calmed down, they introduced him to him and it helps him so much. He has his own set like in school and he dysregulates less and he's more focused. So once they understand that just how easy it is and they can put them in their pockets or socks so no one knows they have them on. Other kids like them on their wrists and could care less, who knows, because some schools have created a culture where it's cool and it's kind of techie, so they think it's cool to be regulated. Like it just depends on who works at that school, how they represent

Track 1: 58:46

How cool is that? So where are some places where you would like to see more devices or more information about bilateral tapping? I know you're breaking into lots of areas, like schools and schools of medicine, demystifying it and helping make it cool, teaching the secretaries. And I know we had a big trauma event in our town and I know your, your, company helped with some of that too. What are some areas where you would like to see this information get out better? And how can that be done? Is there stuff on your website? Like if people are listening and they're like, Hey, I actually work with a lot of people who dysregulate. How can I get more information? What can I do?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 59:25

Bilateral tapping. And so it's just b i t a p p. com. And at the top, it'll just talk about different uses. You can click on it and so many different ways it's being used comes up. But for for just all of us, if anyone has anxiety with going to the doctor, the dentist, I think that would be an easy one. That's a pretty common problem. We have a lady who's completing chemo treatments and you know, you can't move when you're getting a treatment. And so the tappers just help her so much, just stay regulated in a really distressing situation. We're actually starting to work with first responders quite a lot and because they need to. Yeah. If you think about chronic cumulative stress that they're exposed to and then try to come home, they're usually, their work is usually overwhelm, overwhelm, overwhelm. Their window goes down and then they're supposed to go home and be engaged and connected with their family and they have a hard time doing that. And so we're working with them quite a bit to help them I would say addiction treatment starting to help there. So, if someone's, if someone's, let's just say in, inpatient. treatment, they do great. Why? Because they have support, no access to substances. But then when you're on your own and life gets hard and you get triggered stress, then you know, that's your first thought. And so using the tappers to get back into green, they will work their program. Red, they are higher if they stay up too long, likely to relapse. And then blue don't care and will relapse. And so if people like that's Addiction, that's not me. I would just say, well, just think if you had New Year's resolutions, because by February, 80 percent of us aren't doing them. Like our habits are a big deal.

Track 1: 1:01:06

well, and

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:01:07

really trying to create change, huh.

Track 1: 1:01:10

or staying out of the pantry after 8 o'clock at night

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:01:12

hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And then the other big field that we're starting to work with is pilots. And that's because Airline pilots, if you think they've got a, one, if you're on medication, that's a no no, right? So even if you need it, that flags you and I, I would have to look at their regulations, but they aren't able to fly for a certain number of months if they are on medication. And then there's a black box that records everything they say. So even if you and I are co pilots and you're having a hard day or I am, I can't really tell you about it. Even if we're flying internationally, yeah, because everything's being recorded. And so they really

Track 1: 1:01:53

can't move and

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:01:55

can't move and can't share.

Track 1: 1:01:57

And

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:01:57

And so they're looking.

Track 1: 1:01:58

a thousand people in the sky.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:02:00

Right. Right. No pressure. And so that's, that's another field where they realize that all the coping skills, like really you can still, even the people that do work out, do get good sleep, just in a moment of stress, you still need something to bring that down. And then I just think it's important for people to know that if you've had chronic stress, think about it as just being burned out. Like your nervous system just, you know, It's hard to find green because that window just gets smaller and smaller, so it's easier to go into red when you're starting to get burned out or really tired and overwhelmed, and it's easier to drop down. And so our goal is just simple interventions to just help people have the confidence that I can self regulate. And so if someone says, well, do you still believe in therapy? I'd say, of course I do. But. You can't live with me, right? So, I mean, we have to have, people have abilities to self regulate and this seems to be a simple, simple one that works with how our brain works anyway at its best.

Track 1: 1:02:58

Oh, Cindy, I am so grateful for the work you do, not only in my life, but just in all of these arenas where you're touching. I'm grateful you were brave enough to go to an engineer and figure this out. And you listened to your office manager and

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:03:12

Yeah. Yep.

Track 1: 1:03:13

These are the ways that change happens. It's people being brave with an idea, talking about that idea, going through all the changes, and then getting that information out. So any listeners, I hope that you will disseminate this information to people who you think maybe could use it, which is just about everybody I can think of to help us learn, to regulate our nervous systems. Just thank you Cindy for the work that you're doing.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:03:36

Well, I love all the work you're doing and I, I know this podcast and your audience is just really important. What you're, you know, the different people you're bringing on and I, I think it's beautiful what you're doing.

Track 1: 1:03:46

Well, let's just, let's just keep doing what we're doing then.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:03:49

Okay, sounds

Track 1: 1:03:52

All right. Thank you for joining us.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153010: 1:03:54

Thank you.

1:04:05

​I love every opportunity that I have to speak with Cindy. Every opportunity. So I'm glad you got to know her a little better too. If I had to pick a theme for this conversation, it would be fostering resiliency. That seems to be part of her life's work. And I identify with that because I've needed it in my life. And so many people I know are trying to foster their own resiliency. So what. What a worthwhile conversation. To review some key highlights that have to do with that fostering resiliency. I want to remind you of the window of tolerance. So remember there is a window when we can access. Our calm, authentic selves. And when we feel like we can use our tools, And we remember who we are. And we know how to proceed. Sometimes we get out of that window. And as Sidney described, we can go up or down in nervous system states. And I think it's such a big help in fostering our own resiliency just to realize. What window we are in because sometimes we are outside of our window and we keep trying to learn something. Or we keep trying to go through with an argument to prove our point or. We keep trying to push ourselves and it is not going to do us any good. In fact, it does. Counter good for us and for those around us. So even just learning your window of tolerance and then learning some tools for how you can get back into your window, when you have gone out of it. One of my best tools Is the by tap device that she helped develop. So bilateral stimulation is so helpful. Those tappers are great because you can even hide them in your socks or your pockets, or wear them like bracelets. And people don't have to know, even that you are working on regulating your nervous system, they don't even have to know you're out of your window of tolerance. Say you're in a meeting. I've used them many times. Or you're about to go into something stressful or you're coming down for something stressful and you just want a little help. She was kind enough to share a code with me that listeners can enjoy. So if you use the code, Dr. Becca 20, you can get$20 off You also save more money. If it's getting shipped outside of Utah, there's just lots of ways that you can bring it into your reality. They are worth the money anyway, but you know, it's nice to have a discount. If you don't have the tappers, remember other things that you can do that help to regulate your nervous system. Our other forms of bilateral movement, go for a walk or you can angry, clean your house. Only clean using both hands. That's my helper there. And finally my third takeaway would be to remember the value of EMDR therapy. And of getting a trauma trained therapist. If you suspect that some of the trauma you or loved ones have been through might be running a part of your life. It's such a valuable technique, I was grateful for all of her experience in it, as she taught me how previous to this conversation and during, again, I'm so grateful. We got to join in Cindy Jones. And if you need any further resources or want to know how to get ahold of her, you can check the show notes. I've taken care of all of that for you there. I'm so excited to introduce you to next week's guest as well. His name is William Comber and this one is a little different interview and it's one. I loved to be a part of. I'm came across William, as I was talking to him about a device called the breather. It's one that if you recall, from a previous episode, when I was talking to Dr. Tom Michaux. He talked about the benefits of doing resistance exercises with our diaphragm. And he mentioned a device called the breather in order to do so. We were talking about how increasing. Your diaphragm strength can really help low back pain. And we were talking about things that were easier to do, especially if you were sick or recovering, that can make a huge difference. The breather is what he referenced and it really caught my attention. I ordered one and I felt such a difference in my low back pain and also in my ability to sing and to have power in my voice that I got hold of. Well, Komar, he is the accounts manager at the breather, and we just started talking about the breather, what it can do, what the different functions of it were. So that I could talk about it with patients. And also, so I could just know more for myself. But the more that I talked to will about the breather. The more, I wanted to be a part of it. So I brought him on. So we could talk about the breather and really give you a sense of what increasing your diaphragm strength can do. Also, we just got to have a really fun conversation. He's a fifth generation, Florida boy, as he calls it in. In. Growing up in Florida in pre Disneyland times when it was mostly rural, when there were lots of swamps and snakes and Gators and orange groves to. Play in and he has just taken. A hold of his life in such a beautiful way. He is smart and educated, well versed in business in real estate and accounting. In all of those dimensions of life, but also still maintains that Florida country, boy kind of mindset, lots of barefoot time, lots of outside time. He and his family still live in Florida and they still do what he calls free range grandparenting. Where he lives. Kind of free range life. And so does his family, it's fascinating conversation. I'm really excited for you to learn more from William Comber about breathing your diaphragm and taking a hold of life with both hands. I'll see you then.