Narcissistic Labels: Myths Vs. Truths

Unlock the truths behind the buzzword "narcissism" with Dr. Teralyn and Therapist Jenn.  We tackle the misconceptions that have seeped into everyday language and relationships. Discover why not every challenging partner or boss is a textbook narcissist, and learn how to differentiate between common narcissistic traits and the diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder. We promise you'll gain insights into the real DSM-5 criteria for narcissism, helping clarify who truly fits the label and who might be unfairly judged.

Our conversation takes you inside the mind of a narcissist, recounting an unforgettable prison encounter that underscores the grandiosity that these individuals often exhibit. We also disentangle narcissism from its often-confused counterpart, psychopathy, and discuss how these traits might appear in high-powered roles. By debunking social media myths, we aim to provide a more accurate picture of narcissism in various contexts, from boardrooms to personal relationships, challenging the idea that it's a male-dominated disorder.

Relationships can be tricky waters to navigate, especially when childhood traumas and cultural backgrounds play significant roles in shaping behavior and personality. Dr. Teralyn and Therapist Jenn delve into these complexities, offering a nuanced take on when to label someone a narcissist—and when to hold back. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, we explore the ethical dilemmas therapists face when diagnosing remotely, urging a more compassionate and informed approach to understanding narcissism and its effects on relationships.

The Gaslit Truth Podcast will be live and in person at the Feed the Recovering Brain Conference in Dublin, Ohio

Join us with the top names in brain health, including Christina Veselak, Hyla Cass, and Julia Ross, author of The Mood Cure.

We’ll be bringing you interviews and behind-the-scenes content as we explore how nutrition transforms mental wellness.

Chapters

• 0:24 Debunking Narcissism Myths
• 9:19 Misconceptions and Realities of Narcissism
• 19:45 Understanding Narcissistic Personality Disorders
• 26:50 Exploring Narcissism and Relationships

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:24

guess what everyone? Your partner is probably not a narcissist. Welcome to the gaslit truth podcast. I am your host therapist jen, here with my co-host dr tara lynn and dr tara lynn and I are going to talk about some fun shit today, so juicy, juicy, juicy, juicy stuff. Have you ever dated a narcissist?

Speaker 2: 0:44

I don't think so. I really don't. But you and I have such a different idea of what a narcissist is compared to pop culture. Yeah, Because of working in the prison system, and so it is so freaking annoying when you're especially TikTok. There was a while on TikTok that everything was about narcissist coaching. We're going to coach you through your narcissistic partner. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And also the idea that only a man can be a narcissist.

Speaker 1: 1:15

Yes, yes, and I think that there is some work that needs to be done in actually educating people about what narcissism is, and because you don't want to be gaslit yourself into believing that you're with somebody who is high in all these narcissistic traits and is probably a narcissist, when they might not actually be. I hate to tell you, but we've got some stats here today about the prevalence rates of narcissism and it might blow your mind.

Speaker 2: 1:41

It might, and so I do. I also want to say this too like there are a lot of women I think in searching for I don't know a lot of women like to pathologize men. Um and I know that's a pretty stereotypical, blanketed statement, but I don't really see a lot of men in my practice that do that for their spouses Right, like I don't know if you do or not, but it's mostly women that want to pathologize their partner, and I don't know that they want to do it for poor intention. I think they want to do it for understanding of their situation or why they're so frustrated. But as therapists, we can't even pathologize our own family. So I always throw out a caution to people when you're trying to pathologize your partner, there's a problem right.

Speaker 1: 2:27

Ah, that is a good caution, and I'm going to throw a caution out too for this episode. We are not negating the idea that there are narcissists out there. We're actually not negating that. There are even people that are psychopaths out there, and guess what? Dr Terrell and I actually have an extensive amount of knowledge on psychopathology. Narcissism is one of the traits of psychopathology. So so we we actually kind of know our shit and what we're talking about here, but there are people who have been harmed by by narcissists or individuals with narcissistic tendencies. So we don't want to negate narcissistic abuse and, at the same time, I think we need to educate the world on the difference, because you only need to know the difference. There actually is one, yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:04

And I, you know, with that narcissistic thing, not all narcissists are abusive in the terms of, like, physical abuse and, you know, even emotionally abusive. I mean, everything is a continuum, is it not? Like you know, there's there's easier things and harder things. So I, you know there's there's a lot to saying that my partner's a narcissist and I would. I would argue that many people have some narcissistic traits throughout their lives and also, in certain circumstances, they might move forward. Well, yeah, Jen's raising her hand.

Speaker 1: 3:38

I'm totally raising my hand right now.

Speaker 2: 3:39

You cannot be on a TikTok and have a social media platform without being a little narcissistic sometimes, but it's a matter of like. I also think circumstantially, like if you are in a very difficult relationship, you are probably going to maybe exhibit more narcissistic traits or see or find more narcissistic traits in your partner, right? So I think circumstantially, which is why when people break up and they're like, oh, my partner's a narcissist, but now we're broke up, how does that other person not know this? And I'm like well, because if they're not really a narcissist, they're not going to have the same traits in that relationship that they had with you. People are different with different people and that would not be a quote unquote true narcissist, right?

Speaker 1: 4:27

So okay, so why don't we talk about what narcissism is? I know you have something in front of you that you and I hold very near and dear to our heart.

Speaker 2: 4:36

Here you go guys.

Speaker 1: 4:37

Show it, show that this is the old one.

Speaker 2: 4:39

This is not the TR, cause I refuse to buy it, cause I'm not going to spend my money on that shit anymore.

Speaker 1: 4:45

Anyway, here's the DSM-5 is what I'm saying yeah, we want facials, not stupid updated diagnostic manuals. Okay, that's it.

Speaker 2: 4:55

But there's so much information on the internet that you know, and that's where people usually go to determine if their partner is a narcissist or not, which you know it's a personality disorder is a lot harder to diagnose than people believe, you know.

Speaker 1: 5:16

So I don't I don't disagree with you at all we're going to actually talk a little bit about how to differentiate between the two and actually know for yourself a little bit about what this is, because that might actually help you within this relationship, because there's this idea of you being gaslit by somebody that may be narcissistic, and then there's also the idea of your understanding of narcissism may be a little bit inaccurate, because you've been gaslit by the shit that you're reading online and in some of these communities, and so this is what we're going to differentiate between. So, in front of Terry, she has our DSM book that we love. Do you want to just give a quick one-two on what the diagnostic manual says narcissism is?

Speaker 2: 6:00

Sure, do you want me to go over the criteria? Yeah, Just rattle them off and then we're going to actually talk about real prevalence with this diagnosis?

Speaker 2: 6:07

Okay. So the key word here is pervasive, a pervasive pattern of grandiosity in fantasy or behavior, the need for admiration and lack of empathy. That's a big one too, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, so not just in your relationship right, as indicated by five or more of the following. So you have to have five of these nine, which isn't that much. That's weird.

Speaker 2: 6:35

Number one has a grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements. Number two is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love. Number three believes that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high status people or institutions. Number four requires excessive admiration. Number five has a sense of entitlement, unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations. Number six is interpersonally exploitative, takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends. Number seven lacks empathy, is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. Number eight is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her. And number nine shows arrogant, haughty behavior. That's a funny word Haughty, haughty behavior.

Speaker 1: 7:43

Haughty you had to say that that's a funny word Haughty, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

Speaker 2: 7:44

You had to say that and that's all nine of them, so you have to have five of those and I think the key when you think about this is pervasive and also intensity of that right. Yes, I think those are the two things Pervasive meaning in many, many situations, right or all situations Across the board, yes, and pervasiveness not only means across the board, but also the length, like throughout life, right. Because what we're?

Speaker 1: 8:16

talking about is like an actual characterological. You know, maybe is the best way to like, like, say this right, like it's not something that I wake up one day and there is a situation that occurs in my life that then creates this haughtiness. Right, okay, it's not that.

Speaker 2: 8:37

Which, by the way, I think in a lot of relationships like that's where this comes from.

Speaker 1: 8:43

That's what I'm saying. That's what that's the point I was trying to get to right. So, like when you think about this, if you're dating somebody or you are in a relationship with someone for, just say, a few months and you're like, yep, that narcissist, they're a narcissist. Here's what they did. I am going to exercise caution on putting that statement on somebody, because if you've known somebody for three months, there is no way in hell that you can give them that label. I'm going to tell you that right now.

Speaker 2: 9:06

But you can say I don't like this person, I'm not going to be in this relationship.

Speaker 1: 9:10

Go ahead and exit right.

Speaker 2: 9:11

You don't have to stay and fuck around and find out right.

Speaker 1: 9:15

That's so true. Oh God Right, Can I bring an?

Speaker 2: 9:19

example of a narcissist that I met years ago in the prison and this goes down with like let's see what should be the diagnostic one special, grandiose sense of importance, grandiose sense of importance. So this person was in the military and said that they were written into the history books of the military due to their military achievements. Yeah, which I was like really. So you know, you like get a look at it, like really, why don't you tell me about that? Tell?

Speaker 1: 9:51

me about that oh yeah, the book.

Speaker 2: 9:52

I saw it in the library once. He said and I said, oh, I'd love for you to get that book. So the next time he brought a book, it was like a picture book of some war or whatever, Probably Vietnam, I'm going to guess, I can't remember, but anyway, so brought a picture book of this and said a picture of me is in this book for certain big historical events within this war. And I was like great, find it. And oh, I can't find it right now, but I know it's in this book. It was not in this book. This person didn't have any historical significance in a war. That's the stuff, right? That's that grandiosity wanting people to believe that they are more than what they are to an extreme level.

Speaker 1: 10:40

Sure, and that what you just said. Okay, and I know we're talking about narcissism, but I also think we have to also insert a little bit, because I'm seeing a lot more stuff too, on psychopaths, right.

Speaker 2: 11:47

And this person Anti-social personality disorder. You know too, which are very different, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:53

And so grandiose, right Like and I'm, oh my gosh, I'm going to. Okay, are you ready for a blast from the past? Are you ready, dr Terrellin? Yeah, let's the date on this email.

Speaker 2: 12:08

Oh no, I can't see the date.

Speaker 1: 12:09

What is it? I'm going to hold this shit up. Do you not see that? 2010. A question about the psychopathy checklist revives email that I sent to Dr Terrell on October 15th.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Of course I wasn't a doctor at that point yet, so she was not.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Anyways, I am holding that up because I have this manual in front of me which, when I was prepping for this episode, I was pulling up some of my psychopathy assessments that we used to do. We were both trained in offering the PCLR, which is the psychopathy checklist, revised. We used to give this to the sex offenders that we worked with, that we were trying to determine levels of psychopathology. One of the traits of psychopathology, which people will also intertwine with narcissism, which you just said, is grandiose sense of self-worth, which is one of the items and the facets that we measure when giving this assessment. So, when you think about this, it is extremely inflated sense of self-worth. You are cocky, you are arrogant, you are opinionated, you are domineering. You blame difficulties that you have maybe on external factors, not internal factors, right. These are the people that try to control the conversation the whole time. You're having it with them, right, and they give very little concern about the future or other people. Okay, like this is how we would define grandiose sense of self.

Speaker 2: 13:33

Now, within the context of narcissism and cannot support any of that, like it's really not true. Right, right, correct.

Speaker 1: 13:40

Which goes back to the example you were just giving right. So so there's these differences. When we are using these, like yeah, some people, oh, it's just semantics I'm like, well, no, actually, like you're kind of getting gaslit a little bit on what narcissism actually is, and there's a lot of people out there that do like coaching type practices Okay, and I'm air quoting coaching people about like how to prepare yourself or to be ready or to get through a relationship when you're with somebody who is a narcissist. And I'm just going to say exercise caution with all that, because I think that caution should be exercise.

Speaker 2: 14:21

For sure, and I think I don't see it as much on TikTok anymore. There was a time where everybody was a narcissistic coach and it was all about narcissism, but I think there's a lot of misinformation about that. Number one and number two. I think that the narcissist on social media has been built out to be somebody who is violent and will hurt you violently. That is not a feature here.

Speaker 1: 14:48

Does that mean?

Speaker 2: 14:49

that it won't happen. No, because whatever, but that's not a feature of narcissistic personality disorder. I used to think, right, because I doing this in the prison, like that would be more on the antisocial personality disorder.

Speaker 1: 15:02

Yes, and that's. That's just it, yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:07

I think these guys are relatively this is going to sound terrible, you guys, these guys are relatively harmless. That's what I used to think Like the narcissistic, relatively harmless liars, like they would lie about a lot they would need great.

Speaker 1: 15:20

They're so engaging, and engaging. I mean, this is not the person that you can't stand everybody. Just so you know the the someone that you can't stand everybody just so you know, the, the someone who's got these these stronger they are car salesmen and they're so engaging, right. So they are. I mean, some some true narcissists are running five fortune five fortune 500 companies, people who are actually really really high in psychopathology. Yeah, I mean they're probably.

Speaker 2: 15:49

I would argue that in order to be Running the FDA Well, running the FDA, Did I say that aloud Shit? I would also argue that any politician has a little bit of narcissistic features to do that. You know that's my argument, but take it or leave it.

Speaker 1: 16:04

I found something that I wanted to read and it's a couple of different facts like myths about narcissism. Go for it, okay. One of the ones that stood out to me that I thought, when I hear a lot of people talking about that they're dating someone or are married to somebody or their partner is a narcissist, I will ask them about the relationships that they formed and if they are actually capable of being in love. And people will say, well, no, they don't form relationships and that isn't there, and I'll say, okay, so this is a first red flag, because it is a myth that narcissists can't form relationships or that they're incapable of actually loving somebody. Right, and that's a very common misconception because they actually are. People who really have narcissistic tendencies might find it harder to connect and make that connection, but for them it's not like it's impossible.

Speaker 2: 16:58

But I think that that's in the lax empathy piece of this. People think lacking empathy and love. And when you're in a tough relationship, are you going to have empathy towards your partner? That you're in a tough relationship, are you going to have empathy towards your partner that you're having a tough time with? Probably not. And so I think a lot of this narcissistic stuff occurs in tough relationship situations. Right, it does To make sense of that for the person. But anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 17:25

Another one I saw is that they all have, like this, high self-esteem.

Speaker 2: 17:32

But really it's low self-esteem, correct.

Speaker 1: 17:35

And that's just exactly it, right. So I will have a lot of people that bring that up to me as well and I say, actually, you're incorrect. Narcissistic individuals have a very, very low sense of esteem, and they are constantly trying to counter that by being defensive, being superior, being like the front and center of something right, and so that's another piece that I hear a lot from people Can.

Speaker 2: 18:01

I read part of this from the DSM. Yeah, because it talks about this. It says associated features which support a diagnosis are vulnerability and self-esteem makes individuals with narcissistic personality disorder very sensitive to injury and that is in quotes. So it's perceived injury right From criticism or defeat. Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow and empty. They may react with disdain, rage or defiant counterattack. Or social withdrawal. Actually Sure yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:40

So this leads us, then, into something that I know you have got in front of you, that you were writing down before we started. So one of the facts that is true of NPD right, if we're talking about a true person, narcissistic personality disorder is that they're actually people. It's really fucking rare.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Yeah, well, okay, so this prevalence is a very interesting thing to me because it says prevalence is estimated at 0% to 6.2%. Okay, I mean, we got a range, we have a range, got a range, but 0% is listed in there. So this makes me wonder if this is even a fucking real diagnosis. You know, like if you're saying, well, the range of prevalence is 0%, All right.

Speaker 1: 19:25

Well, I think we also have to take into account the source of the information that you are reading from, which is the DSM. Okay, so I mean, I think that that's part of like what we take into account as well, right? Like how much stock has gone into studies that go to that diagnosis? No, they don't. All the funding and the money and the studies are going into fucking bipolar disorder. Because you can't medicate this, you guys. You cannot, all right, and you cannot medicate it right, and so, you know, get a little curious, so it doesn't serve big pharma at all.

Speaker 2: 19:54

This one does not serve them at all, it doesn't I do want to put in the disqualifier and this is an important disqualifier is that drugs and alcohol. If you have trouble with drugs or alcohol or you see these things when someone has been drinking or using drugs, that is a disqualifier to this. Okay, so I want people to know that, because I do think that often someone who is a heavy drinker or using drugs or whatever, and they're a narcissist and it's like, well, we don't know that for sure because they are so diluted, you know, with their, their med of choice, right?

Speaker 1: 20:25

So right, yeah, I would argue any kind of drug of choice or even psychiatric medications, right, like when we talk about some of the patients that we had that were taking high levels of antipsychotics. Oh my goodness, the things that they would say were extremely grandiose. I mean, they would go from being isolated to being out in the day room and trying to, like, sell some idea to somebody about an article they're writing for the New York Times that they are really truly not doing Right, but they're so convincing, you know, if you didn't know them you'd be sitting there going huh, I mean, you are. How are you not running some big show on it Like, wow, right. So I think, like any kind of drug intervention, right, we could throw into that category.

Speaker 1: 21:06

But I guess the home point for this is the stats that we can get, at least for what we know, on how rare, truly rare.

Speaker 2: 21:16

Well, and here's another stat that's going to blow your mind.

Speaker 1: 21:18

I'm ready, blow it.

Speaker 2: 21:23

Okay, 50 to 75% are male, so that means 50% are female. Okay, yeah, and so we have looked at this diagnosis, or just talked about the narcissistic stuff, as being male only, and it says right here that pretty much half is going to be female, right, right, that's interesting to me. Between 30% and 50% are going to be female. That's really fascinating, because usually on the internet it's easy to point finger away, or or it's just them trying to make sense of their relationship so that they can, you know, get out or do what they need to do. You know that person is a narcissist, so I have to leave, you know. So, um, again, like this. These are interesting things, because the narcissistic label is primarily viewed as a male label.

Speaker 2: 22:27

Same thing, with antisocial personality disorder Same thing yes. I don't know what the stats are in prevalence of that between male and female, but this one is interesting to me because it's just as likely that a female is as a male essentially.

Speaker 1: 22:41

Yeah, and maybe it's helpful for us to differentiate for people or talk about what a personality disorder actually is.

Speaker 2: 22:50

is like what what, what, what are the personality in general?

Speaker 1: 22:55

Yeah, yeah, in in general and whether or not you know. We want to just do a quick chat about that or you want to pull that up, like in your, your manual too, because personality disorders and I said this before, you know they're Personality disorders, and I said this before they're very, very pervasive. These are things that can differentiations that people have, the way they see themselves, the world, their realities, and it doesn't just like wake up on a Tuesday and you start doing this.

Speaker 2: 23:42

Well, and they exist in all spaces, and that kind of reminds me of like ADHD diagnosis, right? So in order for a child to have an ADHD diagnosis, the markers have to occur in more than one place, so it can't just be they don't sit still in school, it has to be in all facets of their life, and so this is the same thing. If you switch a relationship and suddenly the person is not like that, then they didn't have this in the first place. Did they exhibit that in that relationship, maybe, but it would not be diagnosable.

Speaker 1: 24:17

Well, yes, yeah, and it's got to be, and I know the DSM uses this word, it's so defamatory.

Speaker 2: 24:26

I know People now use it as a defamation of character. They do.

Speaker 1: 24:29

They do, and something that it I always think about when I'm looking at whether or not somebody really truly has a like personality type of issue going on, right, is how like maladaptive has this been for them through not only throughout their life, but throughout all the facets? Right, I like the word maladaptive, I just do, I've always liked it, and I know that that's in the DSM blah, blah, blah, but I do like that word. It resonates with me because there are these like really enduring patterns of maladaptive behavior that go all over the all over all the facets and go over time. And what is maladaptive? Right, so that there is some subjectivity. Right To what actually is maladaptive?

Speaker 1: 25:12

Um, but we can look at your culture, we can look at the context in which you know you are living. It is very important, right? So, so we can help define maladaptive in that way, um, which which is, you know, is the way that you are viewing the world, your inner experiences that you're having, the cognitions that you have across contexts. Is that maladaptive in some ways, based off of who you are, your cultural, your upbringing, all these things? And that's where we actually dive a little bit farther into how you label somebody with a personality disorder in the first place, which is what narcissistic personality disorder is part of, right. So I don't know if that's helpful or not, but Well, I want to bring.

Speaker 2: 25:51

I want to talk just a smidge about the cultural thing, because I think the best example of cultural things is if you ever watched 90 Day Fiance Do you ever watch that? So they bring usually it's a woman and they're bringing over a man from a different country, you know, and they're bringing him here and a lot of men from different countries have different expectations of women how they dress, how they move, who they can talk to, who they can't. And inevitably the American woman is like you're a narcissist and you're controlling and you're all these things. And I'm like actually he's just exercising in his own culture, right, and that hasn't been, you know, accounted for in any way. So instead we're going to pathologize the man as being controlling, narcissistic, all these things, when really he's just functioning within his learned culture.

Speaker 1: 26:45

Yeah, experiences he's had within his culture, yeah, which is why that matters. So much.

Speaker 2: 26:50

It matters a lot.

Speaker 1: 26:51

So, anybody out there, you think your partner is a narcissist? All right. What do you know about their culture? Yeah, Really, truly Right. What? What do you know about, about that, and is it different than yours?

Speaker 2: 27:06

What do you know about their previously relationships too? Just because maybe they had a bad relationship or having you know somebody else or they're divorced, doesn't mean they're divorced because they were a narcissist, right Like and you know, what do we know about wounds as well, right Like childhood wounds, wounds in relationships, like all of these. All of this stuff is important when we think about it, because it's really central to the ego, right, your ego. And when I say ego, I don't mean ego, I mean your internal ego, state and self-esteem and all of those things.

Speaker 1: 27:40

Are you going to totally Freud this right now and talk about the id and the ego and the super ego and the stupid picture with the ice cap?

Speaker 2: 27:46

There was an ice cap.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Remember the ice cap picture. Here I'm going back. No but when you just said childhood history or things that you've been through, right, if we're going to bring the word traumatic experiences into this, think about how maladaptive we become when we have gone through traumatic experiences or we've had traumas. It shapes the way you view yourself in the world and you start to actually function in very maladaptive ways because of what you've been through, right. And so when you just said trauma, like I'm thinking that's a huge piece to us looking at personality disorders.

Speaker 2: 28:24

looking at personality disorders yes.

Speaker 1: 28:26

Because are you functioning out of something that, like, characterologically, you're genetically born with Right Versus, are you functioning out of something that happened to you and you actually have adapted throughout life and you present yourself in a very, very different way. You might be very callous, you might be very who doesn't give as much in a relationship to someone, and you're a little bit, maybe more selfish because you've been hurt in some way and you have adapted throughout life. So it's you know. I mean, yes, we're splitting hairs here, and it still goes back to the whole point of this of are you really dating a narcissist? Is your partner really a narcissist?

Speaker 2: 29:07

Well, I want to also add in one little other factor, because I hear this a lot. Lately too, people will say I went to a therapist. This is stuff I've heard a lot. I went to a therapist, and even my therapist said that my boyfriend is a narcissist.

Speaker 1: 29:23

Okay, I just had somebody say that to me too. I forgot about that yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:26

It was a few weeks ago. I've had it. I've had it as well, and I always say listen, a therapist cannot diagnose a third party. So, a therapist, when you go to therapy, this is all about your experience, and your experience only. So I'm sure your partner might have completely other experiences to share about you. And so whenever your therapist says, oh, I agree, that's definitely a narcissist they can't even do that.

Speaker 1: 29:55

They shouldn't even be doing that. No, they shouldn't.

Speaker 2: 29:58

If you want to throw around the word unethical practice, that would be it Diagnosing somebody or even suggesting that there would be a diagnosis of someone else.

Speaker 1: 30:07

I mean.

Speaker 2: 30:07

I have people talk about narcissism all the time with me and, and you know, do you think they're a narcissist? And I say I can't, I'd have no idea. You know, I have no idea.

Speaker 1: 30:17

I really don't know. I definitely experience matters. Yes, it does.

Speaker 2: 30:21

But I cannot, you know, even bring that in.

Speaker 1: 30:24

Yeah, I mean, I will dance around that topic too and I will. I mean, and and I think it's okay at some point for a therapist to acknowledge, like, what the client is going through and go, you know, if I were with somebody who was very grandiose, right, or it was somebody who, like, imagine how hard that would be pathologically lied to me, um, to me, yes, there are some, there's, I've said this, but you might have some antisocial traits in there. Sure, you could. I said you could have some trauma in there, you could have some, you could have some psychopathology in there, you could have some sociopathology in there.

Speaker 1: 30:58

Like, I've rattled this all off to people to be kind of obnoxious, and then they go oh, yeah, cause there's nothing you can say that is going to affirm what I just said. No, no, cause we can't. Sure they could have traits. Who the hell doesn't Grandiose sense of self? Let me tell you about Jen's grandiose sense of self when I'm on my high horse, when Dr Terry calls me and says listen, adjust your crown, bitch, because you seriously need to jump into.

Speaker 2: 31:23

How awesome you are yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:26

Right, like, and I'll go yeah, you're right, like I'm, I'm awesome today and I will be able to carry that through Right Damn straight. If somebody would catch me on that kind of day, um, you would think I'm very grandiose. I've given presentations.

Speaker 2: 31:39

If that were the first time someone were to have met you, like not just you, but anyone, and you're in that state like they would formulate certain opinions. Oh for sure, I gave a presentation.

Speaker 1: 31:54

I started a presentation out that way one time with a whole group of people when I was doing a training, and I said I am extremely smart in what I'm going to talk about right now. In fact, I'm an expert in this. And if anybody, I was really bold this day. I said, if anybody is in this room and wants to argue with my level of expertise of what I'm going to talk about, just take a back seat, then I'm not the presentation for you right now. And I was like somebody came up to me. That was a little grandiose. I'm like, yep, it was, it was Yep. You probably formed that opinion real quick. But guess what, I'm not a narcissist.

Speaker 2: 32:23

You know it's interesting because my father was very well-traveled. You know it's interesting because my father was very well-traveled. He's done you know, I've talked about the education he has, the places he's studied, all this stuff. And it's interesting because when he would share, like his stories of travel and stories of things that he's done, they seem grandiose, right, they seem the certain level and it. It was funny because when once I started becoming a therapist and stuff and I was listening to him talk and I'm like God damn, anybody else listening to you would think that you were embellishing and all these things. But you're not, you know, but he was not, you know. But if you didn't know him, no, you know, but he was not, you know. But if you didn't know him, you didn't know that these experiences were actually real. Right, he lived. He lived a very extraordinarily unreal, so right, If you're just meeting somebody.

Speaker 2: 33:18

Even if you only have a glimpse of their life for a couple of months while you're dating them, that's not the whole person you know. You may not like that person I'm not suggesting that you have to stick around for that. I'm just saying you don't know that whole person you know and then if you're in conflict with them for a while in a relationship outside of your relationship, you guys are both going to be different people.

Speaker 1: 33:50

I was just going to say that, right, this kind of falls into the way we put the bow on some of this conversation is what are ways in which we can tell people here's kind of some things to look for or here's some suggestions. If you are in a relationship like this and you are questioning some of these things, the candid part of me just wants to say well, if you're questioning this, I don't know, just get out.

Speaker 2: 34:14

Especially if you're just dating somebody for a little bit. Inevitably people are like I can't just get out. I'm like, but you actually can. Sometimes that is true.

Speaker 1: 34:23

Which goes back to the little thing we said at the beginning. Right For some people narcissistic abuse.

Speaker 2: 34:34

It does happen. Some people are with people that are are true narcissists um or they are very to 6.2 percent of people. Yes, they, they are. And you do the math, that actually actually adds upa little bit.

Speaker 1: 34:40

If you're at the high end of that, you know so it does and I, I would I can boldly say, I think that you and I, based off of what we have in our history and our past, we got to meet some of those people. We got to meet them, we really did, and even so far as to those that were, but remember, jen, even in the prison I remember reserving those diagnoses.

Speaker 2: 35:00

That was a reserved diagnosis.

Speaker 1: 35:02

It was very reserved. It was extremely reserved. You could give antisocial personality disorder out like candy.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 35:09

You get a car. You get a car. You get a car If I were Oprah? You get a car. You get antisocial personality disorder, right, or even even even borderline personality disorder, borderline and antisocial, even BPD. But if you're going to label somebody a narcissist, um, that got too close to psychopathology, which, poor Robert Harris you know rolling his grave, the man never. Don't worry, robert, I still have my manual right here, don't worry.

Speaker 2: 35:30

Yeah, there's such a fine line between that, so that's reserved, it is. It is reserved, it is.

Speaker 1: 35:36

Yeah, and so I think some tips for people that are listening One you know, what we're saying here is we have a special lens. Like Terry and I, you, I we've got a lens because we've got to see some of this be part of it and actually do more formal type of assessments, if you want to call it something, with people that really truly are high in narcissism. But one of the first things I would say goes back to what you said before, terry is this idea of what is pervasiveness and what does that mean across different areas of life.

Speaker 2: 36:08

Yeah, yeah, so, looking at that, usually, it's not just confined to a relationship, you know it is not To a hard relationship, and I would say, if your relationship is that hard that maybe you need to assess if that's a relationship you need to be in, Right, you know in, and I understand there's complexities to all of that and things like that, but I do find that so many people try to make sense of it before they just decide what they need to do.

Speaker 2: 36:37

So I'm going to make sense of this by labeling you a narcissist, and then everybody can understand what I'm talking about and going through, and then it's okay for me to leave. Or you just say I don't like any of these behaviors, it's not working for me, like it makes my life super hard and I don't want to be here and it actually causes me to be the person I don't want to be either. You know because I would believe that you know when you're having this, both people are doing things that they don't want to do and they're engaging in ways they don't want to engage. So, yeah, it's tough. So just be cautious about this whole narcissistic thing that we've got going on the media social media, blogs, all this stuff. You know you can make sense of your relationship and your situation without pathologizing your partner.

Speaker 1: 37:24

Yeah, you can. I think that was a great wrap up right there, did you just wrap this shit up. I think I did that. You can. I think that was a great wrap up right there, did you just wrap this shit up.

Speaker 2: 37:30

I think I did that was really good.

Speaker 1: 37:32

All right. Well, I think that's a good spot for us to stop. Then we got to tell people who are we. Where do you find us? I?

Speaker 2: 37:38

mean, besides us being-. Thank you for joining us on the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Yes, we are your narcissistic host, dr Tara Lynn, and therapist Jen.

Speaker 1: 37:46

Narcissistic knowledge. Hostesses with the mostesses.

Speaker 2: 37:51

How's that Love it. Make sure you like, follow, subscribe, share, give us all the five stars and send us your Gaslit Truth comments on DM or on thegaslittruthpodcastgmailcom. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:03

Thanks everybody.