The Gaslit Truth
Welcome to The Gaslit Truth Podcast – the mental health wake-up call you didn’t know you needed. Dr. Teralyn and Therapist Jenn are here to rip the bandaid off and drag you into the messy, uncomfortable, and brutally misunderstood world of the mind.
Think you’ve got it all figured out? Think again. Everything you thought you knew about mental health is about to be flipped on its head. From outdated diagnoses to the shady underbelly of Big Pharma, these truth-telling therapists are here to tear down the myths, expose the industry’s dirty secrets, and unpack the uncomfortable realities most people are too afraid to touch.
In a world drowning in misinformation, The Gaslit Truth Podcast cuts through the noise with raw, unfiltered conversations that break down walls and challenge the so-called experts. This isn’t your grandma’s therapy session – it's a relentless, no-holds-barred exploration of what’s really going on in the world of mental health.
Warning: This podcast isn’t for the faint of heart. It’s for those who are ready to question everything, confront the lies head-on, and dive deep into the truth you were never meant to find. Because real healing starts with facing the ugly, uncomfortable truths nobody wants to admit.
Welcome to The Gaslit Truth Podcast – where mental health gets real, the revelations are explosive, and nothing is off-limits. Tune in, open your mind, and prepare to unlearn everything you thought you knew.
The Gaslit Truth
Your Brain Is On Your Side with Licensed Neuropsychotherapist and Author Britt Frank
Licensed neuropsychotherapist and author Britt Frank joins us to turn traditional therapy concepts on their heads. Contrary to the notion that our brains are inherently flawed, Britt argues for viewing the brain as an ally in our survival journey. Her personal experiences with trauma and addiction fuel her drive to challenge outdated therapeutic models, shifting the focus from dysfunction to empowerment. Through her insights, she invites us to reimagine mental health as an ever-evolving journey rather than a destination marked by being "healed."
We navigate through often tangled therapeutic dialogues, questioning the entrenched reliance on therapists and medication as signs of dysfunction. Instead, we explore the power of personal agency and therapeutic independence. The episode tackles the fear of inner work, underlining how facing our internal narrative can reveal an innate goodness, even if past choices suggest otherwise. Britt shares her innovative approaches, including workbooks inspired by her book "The Science of Stuck," encouraging listeners to actively participate in their mental health journey.
Finally, we address the evolution of therapy practices, emphasizing the necessity for the field to keep up with advancements in brain science. Britt's upcoming book, "Align Your Mind," promises to delve further into harmonizing our internal dialogues. We wrap up with a call to action, inviting you to engage with us on social media and to continue this unconventional exploration of mental health. Join us for a transformative discussion that promises to reshape how you perceive your mental well-being.
The Gaslit Truth Podcast will be live and in person at the Feed the Recovering Brain Conference in Dublin, Ohio
Join us with the top names in brain health, including Christina Veselak, Hyla Cass, and Julia Ross, author of The Mood Cure.
We’ll be bringing you interviews and behind-the-scenes content as we explore how nutrition transforms mental wellness.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
Your brain is actually on your side. We are your whistleblowing shrinks, Dr Tara Lynn and therapist Jen, and this is the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Today we have a special guest and colleague, Britt Frank.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show, Britt. Britt Frank is a licensed neuropsychotherapist. She's a speaker and the author of the Science of Stuck, published by Penguin Random House, and was named by SHRM, Esquire and New York Magazine as a must-read. So that means we must read. She received a BA from Duke and her master's from KU, where she later became an award-winning adjunct professor. Her work has been featured in Forbes, NPR, New York Times, and her newest book, Align your Mind, is going to be coming out next May of 2025. So I got to give a warm welcome to the show to Britt Frank.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited to finally talk to the two of you. Yeah, it works.
Speaker 2:I think we're more excited to talk to you.
Speaker 1:You know, we're always excited to talk to people who align with our work at the same time and who, kind of, are out of alignment a little bit with traditional psychotherapy. You know rhetoric and things like that, so that's why you're on the show, so we can talk a little bit about that. Because what I would like to know rhetoric and things like that, so that's why you're on the show, so we can talk a little bit about that. Because what I would like to know just straight off the bat is, um, what caused you to start thinking about therapy and psychotherapy a little bit differently than the traditional cause? You were, you were, um, educated very traditionally, right? Yes? So what kind of made you cross the line into thinking that your brain is actually on your side? Well, because I say that because so many people are like my brain is broken. I hear my brain hates me, all of these things, and you're like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's actually much more simplified and your brain is on your side. So I'd like to hear about that please.
Speaker 3:So I'm a big advocate of you need to know what the rules are and then, once you know them, you can break them, and I think that's true with every art form.
Speaker 3:A dancer is going to learn classical ballet, a musician is going to learn to play scales and Bach and whatever it's like great. This is how it works. Now let's see what we can do. So I came to the therapy world having been a hot human train wreck of a dumpster fire life, and so, like many not all, but like many of us in the field, I actually have a background in. I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, so I'm just going to do a different job every few years. And then I found my way to a therapist who is trained in the brain and PSA you don't have to be trained in the brain to be a therapist. And what I think a lot of people don't realize- about traditional Wait hold on Hold, on Roll back, roll back, back it up.
Speaker 1:All right, back that train up a little bit. Okay, most therapists aren't trained in the brain. Yeah, correct.
Speaker 2:Or in the brain. On the brain they are not at all actually. I mean, I think we could put most therapists that are traditionally trained right. It's after we go to school, after we do all that shit. Then we have moments where I look back and go, but this ain't working. Okay, so correct.
Speaker 1:But I want to add one more little thing. I was just in a. This is oh anyway. So I was just at like a I don't know webinar thing and with Dr Greenblatt.
Speaker 1:I don't know if anybody is know who Dr Greenblatt is, but anyway. So he works a lot with a deprescribing medications, blah, blah, blah, amino acids, whatever. So I was listening to him speak and one of the first things and this was for a psychiatrist, which I'm not, but I'm just sitting in there listening right and he said we are not taught about neurotransmitters and the brain in school to be a psychiatrist. And I was like I'm like, well, therapists aren't either. So what the fuck?
Speaker 2:And why is the system?
Speaker 3:broken. What might go wrong? I know it's so bad and I didn't know that until after I went to grad school, got traditionally licensed, went to the quote the good schools and did the supervision and the thousands of hours and then took the optional training on brain stuff and went. What the actual hell is going on? Of course we have this model from the fifties of brokenness and pathology. And again, my disclaimer, if you're listening, because I don't want to get canceled I'm not saying that mental illness is not real. I'm not saying that your symptoms or your pain is not real.
Speaker 3:I have a long history of trauma. I take psych meds and I go to therapy, so I'm not anti doing the things. What I am turning on its head is this idea that you're broken. I wear shoes not because my feet are mentally ill but because, like life is easier to walk around in when you have shoes. And it's the same with psych meds. It's not because I'm broken and defective and pathologized. It's because my brain brain's better when properly supported by certain neurotransmitters doing things in there. But your brain's on your side. I think the entire mental health industry is built upon the idea that there's something wrong with you. The experts will tell you what that is. And now, um, here's, you know, give me your credit card so you have to depend on me every week for the rest of your life to manage your brokenness.
Speaker 2:Right Forever consumers? Yeah, that is not how it works.
Speaker 1:It's really funny because I did a post on TikTok last week and I said something like your brain is not broken. You know, we need to stop this idea that your brain is broken. I had a therapist on there going you're the only therapist that thinks that and I was like our whole system is built on this idea.
Speaker 2:What the fuck? Yeah, it's the one organ that we should be we really as we as a psychologist, even psychiatrist that's the one organ we should be an expert in. We should actually know everything about that one organ, but we're not taught anything about that one organ until we get curious later.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think about what we actually really are taught at this point.
Speaker 3:We're taught cognitive behavioral therapy. We're taught change of mind. We're taught about theory.
Speaker 1:We're taught about theory.
Speaker 2:I said the most ridiculous thing to a client this last week.
Speaker 2:It's not even ridiculous because it's very, very true. They were so stuck in this loop and this is what you talk about, not only in your publication, britt, but just the information that you put out in terms of us going back so far and being stuck in theories and practices that are so incredibly archaic and outdated that actually have really nothing to do right with the brain. And I said to a client they were going on and on and on about like a hierarchy of need or some Maslow's hierarchy of need, and then they were going on and on about something from Freud. And I said listen, if you're going to spend your entire life believing and sitting in something that an old white man from the 1920s concocted, and you think I'm going to give that to you as a therapist, then I'm not your therapist. And they were so appalled, right. And then they came back to me, of course came back and they're like I'm so curious by what you just said. And I went okay, let's talk Now we're rocking.
Speaker 2:Because you're stuck, and I think many therapists are stuck in that too.
Speaker 3:And it's not their fault because you only know what you know. And I, I've met really lovely humans that are horrified, including, like I, was horrified when I sat in my first neuroscience training and went what the fuck have I been doing for the like? Oh, I cringe when I think of the early therapy that I, you know, was doing. Because we don't know, you're given your certificates and your signatures and your stamps and your pats on the head and said all right now, go out in the world and therapize, and so once you know it, you can't unknow it. But if you don't know what you don't know, then so I have a little bit of a little bit of grace. But for people that know and choose willfully at this point, if you're a therapist, even if you didn't have to get trained in the brain, it's sort of like get online find a free course, get on.
Speaker 3:YouTube there's no reason not to listen to people that are providing free content about this stuff content about this stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that raises such a valid point because I think that, as therapists, we should have an open mind about many things. So, instead of this immediate pushback, like nope, you're wrong, Be like, hmm, where did you learn that? Where did you think about that? How did you get to this place? Of that? Because I would venture a guess that, Like, how did you get to this place? You know of that? Because I would venture a guess that most therapists I don't know, maybe not all are sitting there going. You know, I wish I had more, I wish I could help them more. Why? Because I did. I mean, I sat in that space where I was like I just feel like I'm not helping anybody the way that they need to be helped, and then I would push them back to psychiatry and it would be this ping pong game back and forth and back and forth, and I'm like listen, there's got to be more for me, there has to be more for me to help you.
Speaker 3:I'm glad you said that because I've gotten heat from other therapists. Like you're shaming therapists and it's not bad therapist, shame on you. It's the system is broken because we did the system like we were told to. So it's like it's not your fault, ands the beautiful and Like. Okay, like, let's talk about it, let's learn more so we can be more helpful.
Speaker 1:Let's not lose critical thinking Like as therapists. That's where we should be, and so I'm not shaming therapists, but I'm putting a call out Like this is the bat signal right, you guys need to have a lot more critical thinking here.
Speaker 2:It has to be the Michael Keaton bat, just so you know. Yeah, it's a good one.
Speaker 1:Of course, that one yes.
Speaker 3:And you, christian Bale, bat, you get all the time, damn.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah, he's good, he's a good bad man too. Okay, you made a comment when you were initially before Terry and I started interrupting and going on our soapboxes. Sorry, you were sorry, not sorry, like, let's be honest here. Okay, so you, you made a comment about um, like when you started, uh, in the neuroscience world, okay, and you sat there in this moment of, uh, what the hell have I been doing? What have I been learning? Why didn't I know this? Okay, tell us, um, like, what, were there truths that you came to within that space? Um, that were I don't know if some of them are probably kind of painful, um, because it is kind of difficult when you get to a space where everything you learned, pretty much you go well, shit, this isn't, this doesn't it's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so I'm assuming that that probably played into the trajectory of where you are now. There's probably some big truths that you came to within that space.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's humbling and gross and uncomfortable to have to go. Nope, that wasn't it, I was wrong. Let's go back and redo and relearn. And that process sucks and I have a lot of empathy for it, but for me it was.
Speaker 3:We all learned as therapists that panic attack even it's in our language, right, we fight depression, panic attacks, eating disorder.
Speaker 3:It's disorder attack, illness.
Speaker 3:The language that we all learn to use assumes that there's this monster inside of our head and I hear my inner critic needs to be kicked to the curb and beat the shit out of that voice that tells you you're not enough and fuck fear.
Speaker 3:And it's like okay, but like first of all, when you use battle metaphors to describe your own body, you're ramping up the physiology, the cortisol starts flooding and now you're reinforcing this idea that you do have an enemy inside you. Your brain is on your side, like I could boil down my entire aha from all of this postgraduate stuff to oh my God, my brain is on my side, my fear is on my side, my anxiety is on my side, my imposter is on my side and you go from feeling isolated and like no one in the world gives a crap about you and you have no one who has your back, so you have an entire universe inside your head of both physiological and psychological parts that all want you to survive, and that was such a like I didn't even know what to do with that. Having not had a healthy attachment to a family of origin, I'm like I don't even know, how to start with this, but your brain's on your side, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So this is, this is pre post dumpster fire, this is post dumpster fire, post dumpster fire, but still trying to find your space. Okay, what are you willing to share about about that part of your story, britt? Oh, my personal dumpster fire, yeah, for our listeners. What is that for you? Because there's so much truth, I'm assuming, within that that got you to where you are. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I'm happy to share, you know, not in a trauma dumpy way, so just high level. Childhood trigger warning. I don't know how you feel about those, but I just default to them still. So childhood sexual trauma and then, as it happened you know, with that you sort of adapt and then eating disorders and that turned into drug addiction and pills. Crystal meth is where I ended up on my drug trajectory and that's a nasty little bugger. That particular chemical, I mean, they're all bad. That one I have a particular like yikes to that one, cause it's my, it was the one I used. Um, and then I substituted drug addiction with religious addiction and joined the cults and that was a fun. I have a deep understanding of the fascination and the appeal of cult life. By the way, it's not I'm too smart to get sucked into that. It's if you have a wound you are susceptible to cult of any kind. And then, um, so yeah, drugs, religious addiction, eating disorders.
Speaker 3:My list of DSM diagnoses wasn't short OCD I still have like touches of that, that still shows up BPD, trichotillomania I was a hair puller Lots and lots of DSM diagnoses, lots of labels, lots of labels. And then, you know, I found a trauma therapist who understood both the body and the brain and the mind, and then parts, work and internal family systems. So the and I don't believe in a one thing fits all but the combo of your brain's on your side. And here are all the different parts of your mind. All your personalities want to help you and here's how you can help them help you. And then it was a very big and it's not like I'm healed. I still have my things, my quirks, I'm neurodivergent. So, ah, loud noises and, oh my God, my textures and I can't wear that fabric. And I learned to accommodate the symptoms that need to be and I go to therapy for the ones that are interruptive. But that's my personal dumpster fire.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that, but I need to just question a word that you just used.
Speaker 2:And I went.
Speaker 1:You said I'm not healed and my brain went. Well, aren't you healed enough? Do you have to be healed? No, or is this you? No, do you have to be healed Like or is this you Like? You know, like the word healed in our profession is such a I don't, yes, it's
Speaker 1:like a swear word, you know. Yeah Well, we can't use it. Number one we can't use it. Which is, which is kind of why I was like I wonder if she back tracked on that word a little bit, because we're not allowed to say healed, you know, or cured, or you know, all of these, all of these things you know, and so you're still being cautious, you know. But then I'm like, if your brain is on your side, that's just your brain then, like it doesn't need to be healed, it's just your brain.
Speaker 3:I mean, maybe I'm off, but no, you're so and I'm with you because healed and in the religious shenanigans healed is a very big word I'm healed, I'm cured.
Speaker 3:I have forgiven, it is done. And again, no disrespect you do you as far as your faith goes. I went to a very extreme place with it. But healed is a steady state but brains aren't steady state. Brains are ever changing and neuroplasticity and it's always building and growing and rewiring and we can have new neurons show up in there after a while. So heal doesn't make any sense because you're never done your brain is cooking forever.
Speaker 3:So heal does not a thing functional, more functional, happier. There are certain things that were hard, that are not like. It's not hard for me to not smoke cigarettes. That used to be, I mean, that was harder than quitting drugs. That was harder than quitting toxic narcissists.
Speaker 3:Cigarettes were like oh my God, those were my longest term relationship. But it's not hard to not smoke. I still wish I could, but it's not hard. But that's not being healed. It just means that I have more muscle memory on this side of that, and so it's easier. But healed is not a thing, Cured is not a thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, actually I kind of like it. I kind of like how you described it there. Why healed and cured is not a thing, because I think it implies that if you can't ever be cured, you're always going to be a patient, you're always going to be a consumer. You're always going to be. You can't ever just be you Human.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Yes, a human, human Right. And isn't that the quest is just to be human?
Speaker 2:It's hard.
Speaker 1:Being a human is hard it sure is. Humaning is tough. Yeah, sometimes I'd rather be more like my dog. He just kind of lays around and does nothing. You know like I'm, like I could be more of that. But I mean, this is the whole deal and I wonder why in our now, in these generations, why we resist being human so much that we have to be some type of pathology. You know that the only way to be human is to have pathology.
Speaker 2:Well, and let's, let's tie that in Brit on your website and I'm going to paraphrase this. I don't have it up in front of me here very ill-prepared, but I read this a couple of days ago and you have a quote on there that talks about you don't have to dig through your entire past, okay, and all of that shit in the past, to be able to be in a better space right now. And again I'm paraphrasing that. But when you said, pathologize, terry, we feel like we have to go back to all of it. It has to be labeled it's identity, that we can't get further without going through all that and you're saying that's kind of bullshit.
Speaker 3:That's total bullshit. I mean, and again, yes, you can't really move forward unless you have an idea where you came from. But, like in a car, you have a giant windshield and a little rearview mirror. So, yes, of sands Cause one of my neurodivergent quirks is I have to be fidgeting all day or I just get really dysregulated. Why, I don't freaking know, like I don't know, maybe when I was in the cradle, like I had a scratchy blanket. Now I can't tolerate wool. I don't freaking know, it doesn't matter. So the why and we know this as therapists people think, if I understand why, that's the lock, that's the key that unlocks the whole thing.
Speaker 3:It's not. I knew why I was a drug addict, but I was still sitting in a gross bathroom smoking meth. So it's like my why didn't set me free? The what are my choices? Question was a much more powerful use of my energy than why am I? Why am I this and why am I that and what about me and why? It's like I don't know. Sometimes you can know, but often the why did this happen? Question is very much like a developmentally that's a younger question. So you know, why did that person die? I don't know. Why do bad things happen? Like can it be okay as part of being human that we just don't know sometimes?
Speaker 2:But that doesn't mean we're going to stay. We can't sit. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to not know the root cause of anything and everything, and then, once we found it, it's the ha-ha. But a lot of times that wasn't it anyways.
Speaker 1:Well, and why are therapists charged with figuring out your deep dark? Why Like? Why?
Speaker 2:How has that become my job? Because Freud said so, damn it, terry. Sigmund said so.
Speaker 1:You know. But I'm like why? But I look at the word why and I think why is kind of a rhetorical word. It just kind of circles around like circle, circle, circle yeah circle clocking.
Speaker 1:So what now and how? Are more important you know? To that, to that information, I mean, is it good to know? You know that, yes, the trauma that you had in the past, it rewired your brain in such a way that makes you look at the world like this, you know or feel and think like this, but still it always boils down to what now and how you know, do you forever want to live with that?
Speaker 1:We'll call it a brain injury from the trauma, right? Or do you want to? Do you want to? I'm going to use the word heal, you know, and grow and move forward and create that new neurological pathway. Like what do you want? Some people, to be honest, want to be stuck there.
Speaker 3:I was one of them and that is a dirty little secret that I'm happy to share that the what, how and you know what now is. I hated that question because that implied that I have to do something and no one's coming to save me and I want mommy and daddy to come rescue me. I don't say that in a shamey way. That's a developmentally appropriate thing. But this whole trend of I don't want to adults, it's like no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3:Adulting is flipping awesome, it's. I don't want to be stuck in a regressed childhood state where everything is happening to me and I have no agency. So I'm big on let's flip the I don't want to adult scripts to no, no, no, no. When you know how to adult, life gets a whole lot easier, and that's inner child work. And yeah, being stuck in childhood even if you had a good one, I think is just the most powerless time of your life. So I didn't want to grow up and I'll say that. And when I figured out adulting is better than not adulting, then I started learning how and I'm still learning how Good Lord.
Speaker 1:Well, childhood is supposed to be powerless, like literally, I mean just by design. Children can't do much Right, pretty much anything you know. So I don't know. Do you think that we live in just kind of a space where people like to be victimized, like they like to be the perpetual victim of their life and that prevents their growth as well, like that's an identity, you know?
Speaker 3:It's because I think and again, I don't think it's a moral flaw or a personality defect we could do a whole thing on the 12 steps of my problems with that ideology, but-.
Speaker 2:Don't say it, she'll just go.
Speaker 3:Let's do that next year, because that's a great time. All right 2025 is the year, all right, but therapists are not trained in the brain and most therapists aren't trained in grief. And to acknowledge childhood is over. No one's coming to save me in that way. Yes, we all help each other, but to acknowledge I need to grow up and not be in my victim requires really skillful grief work Cause you cannot. You cannot undo a childhood regression, feeling like I'm little and everything's happening to me.
Speaker 3:You can't do that work if you don't know what grief work is, and all we know is the five stages of grief. That's like all people are generally taught. If you ask any lay person or therapist, it's the cool blue Ross model of the five stages. Well, that's not how grief works. So it's not that damn it, elizabeth. It's like we love you, elizabeth, but she'd probably be the first to say that's not what I meant, probably.
Speaker 1:Maybe, yeah, yeah, maybe, because I think in that grief work is just a framework, because people like linear processes. Yeah, and like a workbook, right. They like to know where they're at and what the next thing is going to be.
Speaker 2:Right, and we hear that a lot.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then you get clients we hear that all the time.
Speaker 2:Like Jen, just tell me what this next step is. And they hate it when I just sit and pause and I I'm like and I I'm not. I can't tell you that, like I can't go back to a different step. Go get, want. Go get a book from Liz that she wrote many years ago and read it. You said the word agency before Britt, and that word, I think, for Terry. I can speak for Terry too.
Speaker 2:That one fits so good with us and about the idea of having and taking back your own agency. We had a previous guest on that talked about that Susie Amendola, and she's just an expert in Eastern yoga practice and Eastern meditation and what that means, and she talked about taking back your agency and how we're constantly looking outside ourselves for answers versus internally right, which is when you're talking about inner child and grief work and working through that. That's what got you partially to where you are. That's part of the formula that got you there, not just someone telling you here's 12 steps, go or get a hobby. Britt.
Speaker 3:Take a walk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, get a hobby, get a hobby, they said, which is also on your website, which I think is hilarious. So I'm like she needs to talk about what get a hobby really means, because it was someone taking away your agency telling you yep, you just do this, you'll be fine.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Yeah, there's a finality, though, to grief. That goes so fundamental. It's so offensive to our systems the idea that you don't get a repeat of childhood. If you had a good one, you don't get to stay there, and if you had a bad one, you don't get to redo it. That doesn't mean you're stuck with the impacts of it, but like if, if there's there's a really beautiful medicinal healing quality to futility. Trying to repeat the past is futile. Trying to get people to do things they should have that they have no interest in doing is futile. There's no hope. I feel like therapists are covert pain salespeople Like I got. My life got better when I finally started buying that my therapist was trying to sell me on why pain was good and again, I'm not talking about snort it a little bit. That was awesome.
Speaker 2:That one's going on a deliverable. Wow, therapists are covert pain. This is great.
Speaker 3:I love that Door to door and sell you on why your pain is your portal to all the things that you want. Again, not anymore. I'm not saying, obviously, I'm not sitting here being like everything is hopeless shit. A lot of it is, but not everything. And agency requires pain and I don't like it either. But muscles don't grow unless you tear them, and that's what working out is. So why do we think that everything is love and light and feel good and happiness and emotional regulation is the whole be all it's like? No, it sucks. Growth is gross. It's worth it, but it sucks. Yeah, Pain is good.
Speaker 2:Speechless. She's quiet, she's sitting here like, oh man, there's like two really good lines there that we're going to use on everything now, everything now, I'm going to do all the things.
Speaker 2:I've never had someone say it that way before and it kind of goes back to this idea of man, if we are, if we are salesmen for pain, okay I would say we right as a therapist, right, and we're walking around and trying to sell to everyone what pain really is and how you've got to get into that pain, be part of that pain process. That pain, I mean. How do people ever end therapy then? How do you ever end any of what you're doing with a therapist? Then, if we dig to those spaces some of them which don't fucking matter to some people by the way, they never needed to go there in the first place, they really didn't.
Speaker 3:Pain doesn't mean pass, though. You know pain doesn't mean pass though. So, and again, I'm not saying we live in the pain of our trauma, but, like the hobby that you referenced on my website is, I decided at 37, after 20 year alcohol and cigarette habit, I'm going to become an aerialist.
Speaker 2:I want to learn how to hang from a hoop in the ceiling and do the jealous Cause like, why not?
Speaker 3:So it hurts, like I had a practice yesterday. I am covered in bruises and scrapes and dings. It's not fun, but that is. I don't need to sit in therapy and cry. Sometimes I need to go to my circus gym and push my limits to see what this thing I walk around and can do. And so the work is not always about sadness and the past. Sometimes it's about what's the growth for you right now, and it's probably going to be uncomfortable. So how do we move in? And that's why you don't need therapy forever. Not everyone, some people, maybe, and some people can't get access to it at all. So when people are like well, I have no resources, I have no privilege, I have no access, what am I supposed to do? Well, if that's your situation, then don't shame yourself. This is not your broken. This is the broken system is not letting you get what you need, and that is not the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just I'm going to be argumentative here, in part because some people just don't think they have access to a therapist right, Some people, some people don't realize that even their insurance coverage would cover it. Some people would like to live in that idea that they just can't and they won't and they don't even try.
Speaker 1:So I even think, like because okay so if we're going to even go down to, you know the most impoverished people have anyways in our state the best insurance coverage. You know they have the best insurance coverage. They don't pay anything. When I first started practicing I think they had to pay a $2 copay. Now they pay nothing. So when I hear that, I'm even like I question that you know I can't, I can't, I can't, and I'm like I even question that Even when I think about accessibility. Now with telehealth, like you can pick anybody in your state, just because maybe you can't pick that person doesn't mean you have no access, right? Like agency.
Speaker 3:Yeah, often I'm stuck is code for and this is true for me I wasn't stuck, I just didn't like my options.
Speaker 1:You know it's like I don't want to go to when.
Speaker 3:I had no money and I 12 step meetings were the only thing available to me. Even though the ideology is very troubling, I, I, I went and I could go, but I'm like, no, I need to have it this way. I want to go to that place and I want to go to that person, and I was too broke to buy food and cigarettes, so I would smoke cigarettes and then go to 12 step meetings that had pastries and I knew which ones had them Coffee and donuts, and that was what I ate for a while, because that was of my own choosing and my own making. But yeah, I don't like my choices. It's not the same as I'm stuck and then it's okay. Well, what are you willing to do today of the choices you?
Speaker 1:have, or I don't realize that I have choices, because I didn't get curious enough about my coverage to know that Well, didn't get curious enough about my coverage to know that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's, I think, very common for many people, right? Whether you've got a loss in your life, whether you're going through a divorce, whatever, you're struggling with something within your life, there's this point where you can resource yourself. There's so many resources out there, but we just stay right in this space of I can't, I can't, and there are perks. There are perks to staying stuck. There's so many perks to staying stuck. I mean, it's so much easier too. I mean, when we don't address shit and we don't really take, take the bull by the horns and do things, life's like kind of fucking easy.
Speaker 3:It seems right. The I don't know who came up with this idea of choose your hard, and I know it gets a lot of like a lot of hate on social media.
Speaker 3:Again assuming you have choices. Being fit is hard, being unfit is hard, being, you know, broke and having collectors Like I was hiding my car from the repo guys Like that's hard, but like it's also hard to be responsible with money. And it's like which of everything, if you can start with, there's no easy, everything is hard. Which is the better heart? So if you can choose your hard, that's where your agency starts. And the myth is that it's easier to stay stuck. It seems that way Like it's easier to just not do the things, it's easier to not deal with my crap, it's like. But is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think they both. They both kind of suck actually. So which one is which one's going to get you to a better space of what you want right and to be who you want to be? Um, and yeah, it's, they both do kind of suck.
Speaker 3:That's freeing, though, cause if you know everything sucks, then you can pick a suck that will work for you instead of feeling like it should just be pick your suck like pick your suck, pick your suck. Pick your, suck, pick your suck.
Speaker 1:You know so, because I also think like, okay, let's say that you have a drug or alcohol problem, and now you're in the court, right, and you said, oh, I didn't have access to a mental health professional, I couldn't get help, I couldn't do these things, but you're now paying an attorney thousands of dollars to help you get out of this. That annoys the shit out of me, I have to say, because I'm like no, it was just at that point, you didn't think that that was the path that you wanted, right? Which?
Speaker 3:I get yeah, and there's this thing.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people feel I felt it that if, if I do the the, I hate the phrase like do the work but whatever if I do the things that at the end of it I will find that I'm as as much of a piece of shit as I'm worried I am. And at the bottom of all the work will be this black like hole of nothingness. And I really get to a point why that fear prevents people from doing the inner looking and curiosity. But it's just not true. Your brain's on your side. At the end of it you'll find you don't suck. You may have done some sucky things, like I had a lot of cleanup to do from the wreckage I made, but like I'm okay, you're okay, we're okay, let's just fix it, clean it and then move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do believe most people are good people and that comes from working in prison, like I mean, jen and I worked in the prison system for many years and I did have to live in the framework that people are innately good the majority. There are some that are not. They're innately good but they make bad decisions when they're living in certain states of being like during that time or during drug use or whatever, because I have to view it that way. Otherwise, I'm the world's biggest hypocrite because my husband's in long-term recovery. I can't believe that things like that are because you're a bad person, you know.
Speaker 3:If only you were so simple Like. This binary of good people do good things and bad people do bad things and never the twain shall meet is just not how humans human. I'm with you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So when you started practicing, it was I'm going to get maybe I'm wrong it was, after all, of this strength that you had in your life. Okay, so when you started practicing, did you set out to practice to heal yourself or to help other people? Like? What space were you in?
Speaker 3:Neither, and I know a lot of mental health professionals either do it to heal themselves, which is not a good reason to get into the work, or because you know I got an, or to be helpful to others, which I suppose that's great. I was neither. I'm not that altruistic. It wasn't about I want to help people. It was. I'm so obnoxiously fascinated by everything that all I want to do is talk about it and read about it, and it's sort of like when you find a restaurant and everyone you know needs to hear about it. That's how I felt about this work, and so it was more like nothing lights me up more than doing this and being with people who are doing this. This is the conversation I want to be in all the time. So, hey, I can make that a career, and so the fact that it is helpful, that's great. I'm glad I'm not causing active harm in the world. But I don't actually do it to be helpful. I do it because I really think it's cool.
Speaker 1:There is no shame in that game because I'm right there with you. Yeah, I was going to say that's very similar to my story.
Speaker 2:I don't fit into either of the categories either. I just wanted to be Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs. That was it.
Speaker 1:Go. I just wanted to continue to have my own business and make a living Like that was really it.
Speaker 3:I love you both so hard. Right now I really don't give that much care about helping people.
Speaker 1:But it's kind of freeing to have this conversation because there is a lot of pressure on therapists to.
Speaker 2:You. Got in this to help the world. You are the helper. Yeah, it is a helpful profession, but I don't have a savior complex and you carry that cross forever and that dictates who you see, how much you charge, like what nonprofits you need to be giving all of your time to all the time, because you are in a helping profession and shame you for wanting to charge for something, and not that this all happened to me in the last month, but it did.
Speaker 2:So it did really on my brain right now, but it is, it's this whole complex. We are all supposed to be those people. We are supposed to be those people and it doesn't make sense to me in my brain it never really quite has. But I also didn't go into the field to really really help myself or fix myself or help others either. So yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. Which I think is a really good place to do it. I'm so, I'm so relieved to be in like-minded company, cause I do, I feel, shame me a little. Parts of me are like don't say that it's supposed to be, but like I think it's cleaner when it's done. Because my role with my clients I know I'm sure you feel the same way Isn't to save them First of all. If I did, if that was my role, then their wins are mine and I completely destroy their agency by taking on the role.
Speaker 2:And they can't live without you.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. The role of savior is inherently damaging to agency and autonomy. So that's my role is to give you information. The fact that I genuinely have deep love and affection for my clients is it's not because I'm paid to. You're paying me to give you information about your brain. You're not paying me to like you. I do that just because you're cool, but it's not to be helpful. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so you're touching on a space of bringing neuroscience into this. You keep talking about the brain, right? You've talked about the brain multiple times, over and over and over again. Okay, what are some things that you, early on, realized about the brain that you did not know? Or things that for whether we've got listeners who are actually because we've got a nice little following of some clinicians that like to listen to us all over the country, by the way, which is way fun, we'll plug there but also people who are, who are clients or consumers as well, right, what are some of the things you learned early on that were super helpful?
Speaker 3:when it comes to brain, my number one thing anxiety right, that's. That's probably the most universal one that even non-mental, healthy people can get on board with. Anxiety is not and I'll hot take, but I can back this up Anxiety is not a disorder, anxiety is not a mindset, anxiety is a feeling. Anxiety is a physical state, not a personality trait. That's my sticky way of saying it.
Speaker 1:There's so many social media deliverables in this episode I don't even know what to choose from.
Speaker 2:I know I'm about ready to go get my burn DSM. That's back there and lighter on fire again, just for you here, Britt.
Speaker 1:Listen, I think the same thing about depression. I do too.
Speaker 3:That was the other side of that. And again, I'm not minimizing the discomfort and the debilitating nature of the symptoms and how. If you don't know what's happening, yes, that can become life threatening. And yes, meds and yes, whatever you need to take care of yourself, have it at it. But the function of anxiety and depression is self-protective, not self-destructive.
Speaker 3:Anxiety is your nervous system going lion about to eat you. Quick flood them with adrenaline and cortisol and all the things that will keep you alive if you have to run away from a tiger. But if you're answering an email, your brain has an up. We're still on first gen brains. Imagine if you were still using your first generation phone. Like our brains, don't update, so the cave people brain is your brain, is mine, and so it doesn't differentiate between a tiger and a. We need to talk email from your boss and so we can train it once you know the language. But anxiety is there to help you. Your anxiety is on your side. I don't like it either, having generally skewed more towards the anxious side of things. I used to ping pong between anxiety and depression. But if you understand it's functional, it's not pathological then you can work with it in a better way.
Speaker 2:Right Now, personality traits. We know there are not biological markers for some of these things. We know that already, and yet we are sold this bill of goods that they are.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, Yay, brains. Brains are going to brain and that's not always going to feel good, but we can. It's sort of like I don't drive a stick, shift Like I can't. I've tried, it doesn't work. But if you had the most amazing car and I don't know what that is like, I don't know Ferrari, Lamborghini, I don't know but if you don't know how to drive a stick, it doesn't matter how awesome your car is, You're going to destroy it and it's going to crash. And that's not because you suck and it's not because the car is attacking you, it's because you don't know how to drive it. Life is more fun when you know how to drive your brain, and so my work is really driver's ed. It's like you don't need to know everything. I don't know everything about my car. I know enough now not to you know I can park.
Speaker 1:It's not shop class. Your work is not shop class, it's driver's.
Speaker 3:So like end user versus you know manufacturer Exactly Just what we need to know to get the job done. No more and no less Okay.
Speaker 2:So that's the number one, big one she's got for us here.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going to bring in something that you might feel is controversial, but I think we need to talk about it because I know that you've mentioned in here a couple of times about meds. It's come out of your mouth a little bit and I don't know if you know Jen and I's stance on medication. It's use it if you want, basically, but if you don't, that's fine too, and also the efficacy behind meds is abysmal for the majority of people. So I'm just curious about what your stance is on psychiatric medication as being a tool, because I'm going to tell you, I look at even that language as being slightly manipulative, because is it a tool? For some people? Sure, but it also causes a lot of strife in people for the muting and the numbing and all of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it changes your brain right?
Speaker 1:So we're talking to a brain expert here too, yeah, which takes away your agency, in my opinion.
Speaker 3:I don't disagree. I really don't. I think meds have the potential and if you were to run the numbers, are probably causing more harm than health in their use and their overuse and the side effects of the med. That then requires you to get another med. I got put on a bipolar med years ago that almost killed me. I had like the one in 10,000 reaction that they warned you about.
Speaker 1:However, I also am big on. I really do. I think that's. That's the number that they threw out there for compliance.
Speaker 3:But anyway, that's me, I agree. I again, I do not in any way dispute the problem with prescribers, with all of the people we know now. People were getting opiates and never. I still have clients who get prescribed opiates and not told be careful how you take them. And I'm big on like let's not throw the entire thing out.
Speaker 3:If you understand that that depression is not a chemical imbalance, that's never been proven, that, like selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, that doesn't cure depression, it could be that your problem is you have too much. I had a client who they kept thinking she needed more dopamine so she got prescribed. Well, it turned out it wasn't a dopamine deficiency, it was a problem with too much, and too much dopamine creates psychosis. And so the way I approach my own use of meds is I understand that no one freaking knows how they work. No one knows what's going to happen when you try it. It's sort of throw the spaghetti at the wall and if you find one that helps, cool.
Speaker 3:I was in a position where I had the time and the space to experiment on my brain to see what did what. I found one that made my life a little easier in certain ways and so I take it, but it doesn't make me not depressed. I hate that they're called antidepressants, because that's what you assume they do, but not always. I found one that makes life a little bit less edgy for me, and so great. But I'm with you and that's. That was a hard. I had the time, the energy, the resources and understanding what they actually were to examine their efficacy in my own brain, you can make an informed choice.
Speaker 2:Is what you're saying? Yes, I could, not everyone can.
Speaker 3:That's it. And my prescriber was a drug dealer. I would go in and she'd be like, what do you want to try today? And it's like write me a script for this. I was a good little drug user, so I just translated that skillset to a prescriber.
Speaker 2:I need you to give me this.
Speaker 3:So she would and I'd try it. And then I'd go back and be like, no, I'm going to try this cocktail and that's not a. I am not saying everyone should try this at home. That's what I did and I found one that worked. But I'm with you Meds are a huge problem.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think actually a lot of people now go to their prescribers and say I want to try this, I want to try that because of what they've seen on TV, or maybe a friend has said this worked for me, so I'm going to go in and do that too, and I think and do that too, and I think, which is not even a scientific, like, if you, if psychiatry is a science or even psychology is a science, that is like the anti-scientific way of doing something you know, and then for the prescriber to just kind of follow suit in there.
Speaker 1:But the reason I brought it up was because you slipped it in a couple of times and I and I know, throughout this whole thing you've slipped in little little bits of things and I and I, I think you know is that because, like, there still is a lot of shame in our profession for speaking our truth. Um, so there are certain things that we still have to fall in line, or believe that we have to fall in line and say to make us a PC and not get canceled, like you said before like I don't want to get canceled.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to slip in little bits of of, you know, the rhetoric of the nature of our business. You know, that's true, but I take them, and so it would be really hypocritical for me to talk about how no one should take meds because they're dangerous. That's a yes, and I take them, and so it's important to me to be like you know, did I do it in a scientifically approved, double blind, placebo, controlled way? No, but there's also problems with that too. And no one knows how consciousness works. There's not one scientist that can tell you. Here is the nature of consciousness, so we'll never really know what the meds are interfacing with in terms of how we think, and so it's a crapshoot. And if you want to go for it again, agency, go for it. And you know, and it's a crapshoot.
Speaker 3:And if you want to go for it again, agency go for it, and you know, and it's really not great, and so I'm with you and, full disclosure, I take them. Yeah Well we've all taken them.
Speaker 2:All three of us have taken those. So just in full disclosure there, you know right no-transcript SRI into our body, right, you know what that can do, and I also like what you said about the idea that we only know so much of it, because we're ever, ever, ever changing the brain and the body is ever changing. What your brain is doing today and what it looks like today and the connections it made today is shit. The neurotransmitter pathways and how they look today aren't the same as two weeks ago. They're just not.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah. And we can all be wrong. In 10 years, we could get on this and I could be like, oops, everything I've said in the 2020s was total crap. But as far as I know, that's what I know today.
Speaker 1:But that's the problem. That's the problem with our field is we don't do that. Yeah, that's, so true we still say you know a hundred years ago, stuff like let's keep training our clinicians on this stuff, and never acknowledge the idea that research has changed, Humanity has changed, Our field should be changing but it is a snail's pace field. Like you don't see a you know a surgeon still operating the same way that surgeons operated a hundred years ago.
Speaker 3:Thank God Right.
Speaker 1:But why can't we say that same thing about therapists? Right Like we're still taught the same theoretical things that 100 years ago they were saying you know and nobody's like oh, thank God, you therapists don't operate the same way we do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do. We are still trained in the founding fathers of psychology and how important. That is yes, and that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:I get asked in job interviews what's your theoretical orientation of 100 years ago? Like, exactly Like. What do you hinge your practice on? And nobody ever says that to you know a surgeon or a physician today.
Speaker 2:I hope I get asked that again someday. I really do. I want that opportunity again. What want that opportunity what?
Speaker 3:would you say? What would you say I?
Speaker 2:would, I would laugh, I would laugh.
Speaker 1:I did laugh.
Speaker 2:Terry's been in this space before and I've been interviewed multiple times. That's a great state. What question? We ask that question throughout the state when we get interviewed and I've always answered it really prim and proper and kind of made up a bullshit. Answer Cause I don't, I have no idea. At this point I have no idea, but I would love to be asked that, and then I'd probably laugh and then go on a tangent and I wouldn't get hired.
Speaker 1:Well, this was years ago when I was looking for like a part-time gig or whatever. And they asked what is your theoretical orientation? And I burst out laughing and I said are you still asking that question? And the guy goes well, it's just on the list of things. He got so defensive, he goes it's just on the list of questions that I have. And I said I have no idea and I can't believe you're still asking that.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that. Did I get the job I've ever?
Speaker 1:heard no.
Speaker 3:That was my next question.
Speaker 1:No, I did not get the job. I would not, I would not Okay, so you so?
Speaker 2:so, britt, tell us a little bit. You've got publications out like up the wazoo, right, like it's crazy. You got another book coming out next year. Okay, you've got a few. You've got a few of them here. Tell us what. Tell us what our listeners should know about, about your books and about what's coming up in the future.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you for that. Well, first of all, the books are the way I speak. There's nothing I can. The best compliment I've ever gotten on my book, the Science of Stuck. Someone came up to me and said two one I never read, I hate books, I hate reading. But your book was fine because you know it's not full of shit. You write like a human. So that made me feel good. And then another person said I don't like to read but your stupid brain book got stuck in my head and that made me happy. So it's. My book is written the way we're having this conversation. I don't need to talk about the. You know the parasympathetic branch of the. It's like can we just fucking talk at the, the brakes and the gas pedal.
Speaker 1:Let's just leave it there.
Speaker 3:So it's a very easy read and it's. You know, I like to think it's fun. I throw in all my little quirky things like pop culture stuff that I think is there's. I have a Batman story in the science of suck the, christian Bale.
Speaker 1:What page? Just kidding.
Speaker 2:See, we didn't even know that, I didn't even know this.
Speaker 3:It's in the shadow work, it's in chapter four. Oh, that makes sense All right.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, my work is driver's ed and it reads like we speak. And the new book, align your mind is less about the physiology and more about all the voices, the inner critic, the inner child, like all that stuff. The chatter is all is all for you, it's all on your side and here's how to help all your personalities get along with each other, and so a lot of it is based on internal families or internal family systems. Some of it's Jungian. You know, I didn't come up with the theories, I just took my spin on it and put it in human language, and my take on it and I'm really big on your inner critic is a great asset if you know how to talk to them. So that's what the new one's about Way cool.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Where can people find your book?
Speaker 3:You can find my books everywhere you buy books, you know, if you have a local bookstore, that's probably best. You can listen to podcasts anywhere you listen to podcasts. That's a line we have right.
Speaker 2:Can't you just say, well, go to the damn bookstore.
Speaker 3:Go to the damn bookstore.
Speaker 2:We always ask this question where do we find your books? Don't you just want to be like, well, where the hell would you buy a book? Go there, oh my.
Speaker 3:God, I'm not going to unhear that next time I get asked that yeah, I'm easy to find online. If you Google me, I'm on socials, I'm on all the things and the books are out there, and I have a workbook that goes with the science of stuck and I wrote it like a choose your own adventure thing, so you don't have to do it in order and you don't have to quiet your mind and set aside time because that's crap. That's not how.
Speaker 1:I do it. Oh, so you're not doing the holding space for people thing that is so relevant right now? Nope.
Speaker 2:Oh I like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. Well, I feel like that's a good place to wrap up this episode of the Gaslit Truth. How about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this is a good spot.
Speaker 1:We're going to end and hold space for everybody. We're going to end it.
Speaker 2:We want you to hold space, to find us on our socials, and if you don't know what the fuck that means, that's your own problem, because we are on the socials. I'm not going to tell you what they are, I'm not going to tell you our usernames. Just go find it on the fucking socials the Gaslit Truth Podcast. I can find it. How's that? Does that work better than how we usually do it?
Speaker 1:Yes, we should have a better ending like that.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, that was the most fun I have had in weeks. I am in love with both of you so hard right now. Oh, thank you so much. I hope you're happy with where we went. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Most importantly, I hope our listeners are happy with where we went. So if you've hung out with us this far, make sure you hit that subscribe button. Send us your gaslit truth at the gaslit truth podcast at gmailcom, and that's a wrap Thanks everybody.
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