The Gaslit Truth
Welcome to The Gaslit Truth Podcast – the mental health wake-up call you didn’t know you needed. Dr. Teralyn and Therapist Jenn are here to rip the bandaid off and drag you into the messy, uncomfortable, and brutally misunderstood world of the mind.
Think you’ve got it all figured out? Think again. Everything you thought you knew about mental health is about to be flipped on its head. From outdated diagnoses to the shady underbelly of Big Pharma, these truth-telling therapists are here to tear down the myths, expose the industry’s dirty secrets, and unpack the uncomfortable realities most people are too afraid to touch.
In a world drowning in misinformation, The Gaslit Truth Podcast cuts through the noise with raw, unfiltered conversations that break down walls and challenge the so-called experts. This isn’t your grandma’s therapy session – it's a relentless, no-holds-barred exploration of what’s really going on in the world of mental health.
Warning: This podcast isn’t for the faint of heart. It’s for those who are ready to question everything, confront the lies head-on, and dive deep into the truth you were never meant to find. Because real healing starts with facing the ugly, uncomfortable truths nobody wants to admit.
Welcome to The Gaslit Truth Podcast – where mental health gets real, the revelations are explosive, and nothing is off-limits. Tune in, open your mind, and prepare to unlearn everything you thought you knew.
The Gaslit Truth
Dr. Eboni Cornish Reveals Shocking Emotional and Behavioral Links to PANS/PANDAS and LYME Disease
Discover the hidden connections between sudden behavioral changes in children and underlying infections as we engage with Dr. Ebony Cornish from the Amen Clinic. Have you ever wondered why a child's demeanor can shift overnight into patterns of OCD or ADHD-like symptoms? It's time to uncover the mysteries of PANS, PANDAS, and Lyme disease and how these conditions can sneak up on unsuspecting families, often escalating post-COVID. Dr. Cornish lends her expertise to illuminate these complex disorders, guiding us through the maze of misdiagnoses and the importance of early recognition.
Embark on a journey through the nuanced world of autoimmune neuropsychiatric conditions, where the lines between mental health and medical science blur. How does one navigate the intricate interplay of diet, environmental toxins, and hormonal imbalances on brain health? Delve into the power of spec scans in detecting brain inflammation and explore the holistic approaches that Dr. Cornish advocates. By evaluating autoimmune links and avoiding surface-level assumptions, we lay the foundation for a more integrated understanding of childhood conditions that often persist into adulthood.
The path to effective treatment is not always straightforward, especially with Lyme disease's elusive nature complicating the journey. Dr. Cornish shares her insights on balancing traditional antibiotics with alternative treatments, emphasizing the vitality of personalized care plans. Through her transition from conventional to functional medicine, Dr. Cornish reveals her holistic philosophy, underscoring the im
The Gaslit Truth Podcast will be live and in person at the Feed the Recovering Brain Conference in Dublin, Ohio
Join us with the top names in brain health, including Christina Veselak, Hyla Cass, and Julia Ross, author of The Mood Cure.
We’ll be bringing you interviews and behind-the-scenes content as we explore how nutrition transforms mental wellness.
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
Your health diagnosis has gaslit you. Today we're talking about PANS, pandas and Lyme disease.
Speaker 2:There you go, you got it. Lyme, it's not limes, it's not what we eat. You got that, terry.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We're going to talk about that. We got a little story with that one already. We have a very special guest today that I want to introduce with us today. We've got Dr Ebony Cornish. I'm going to read a little bit about Dr Cornish. She gave us one hell of a bio, so I'm going to and it's good. I mean, it's good, we're going to pull out the things, and if I miss the things, dr Cornish, you let me know. Okay, so we've got an Amen Clinic physician here with us, which is so cool. All right, dr Cornish, she is a very highly regarded physician, so adjust the crown. That's right, lady.
Speaker 2:She does a lot of integrative medicine. She works with a really diverse community. She is a functional medicine director of the Amen Clinic East Coast Division. She specializes in the autoimmune diseases, lyme disease, environmental toxicity, gut imbalances. We've got the neurology, various other chronic conditions. She has a holistic approach, which we may or may not love here at the Gaslitre podcast, and Dr Kornish identifies root cause. So yeah, let's look at root cause of health issues within biological systems of the body. So she works with kids, she works with adults and she has developed the neuroinflammatory intensive program, which is a two-week inpatient initiative that looks at neurological complications from these chronic infectious diseases, mold illnesses, chronic inflammatory conditions and does the brain imaging along with that. That is really, really cool.
Speaker 2:She works with Amen Clinics too, because she is also an expert in spec scan analysis, which I'm sure we are going to talk a little bit about that today. And then, education-wise, she earned honors at Brown for undergrad studies and her medical degree from Brown Medical School and family medicine residency was part of that. At Georgetown she, as a medical fellow, conducted translational research for National Human Genome Research Institute Wow. Worked under Francis Collins and is the treasury of the board for the International Lyme and Associated Disease Society, which is way cool when you talk about that. And Dr Cornish is honored as Northern Virginia's top doctor for family practice in 2021 and 2022 and recognized by the Continental who's who as an exceptional woman in healthcare Wow. I would like to welcome to the show Dr Cornish.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, you made me seem so smart. Well, yeah, just that crown, lady, I'm just saying Thank you, I am so happy to be here to just get it rolling. I mean, I've been excited ever since you invited me. So, let's get it.
Speaker 2:Get ready.
Speaker 1:I want to clarify because I saw Dr Cornish's face when Jen said we may or may not love Holistic, and I'm like we love it, we love it.
Speaker 2:We pretty much hate everything. That's not that. So good thing you're on the right show.
Speaker 3:One thing you missed is mama triplets.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's not on this list. It should be at the top.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we got a Christmas puppy coming, so like mama quads coming soon.
Speaker 2:Oh my, how old are you? Three, three of them the same age.
Speaker 3:Two girls and a boy. One and done man.
Speaker 2:I guess, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:She's efficient, she's also very efficient. Top skills efficiency Put that on the resume, exactly, love it, alright. So today we're going to get started because I have a curious inquisitive Now. I don't have this as my own special interest for PANS, pandas and Lyme disease and Dr Cornish and I met at the IMMH and I was like, what would you like to talk about if you came on the podcast? And she goes everything and I went well, we only have an hour.
Speaker 1:So, I would love to talk about everything, but these are the things, because I think these are some of the hidden points of your health, and also, particularly with Jen and I, in your mental health care, because we've seen it, we've sparked it out in our own practices. But I would love to learn a little bit more about these things and maybe a little bit what to do if you suspect that your child or yourself might have these. Plus, we're also in Wisconsin I don't know if she knows that and Lyme disease is kind of a big deal around here.
Speaker 1:And it's often dismissed a lot, so love to get into that. So what would you like people to know about PANS Panda?
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a disorder that's missed so often and it was first classified in the 90s by Dr Suedo, who did an NIH study about 50 kids where these kids had OCD overnight. You know no explanation for it, just my kid changed overnight and basically these infections I mean it can be strep throat the next day your kid is a different kid and that can be from OCD to ADHD, to even, you know, just having problems with handwriting or going backwards with development, all the way to kind of bedwetting again, and the list goes on and on anxiety, depression, but then you don't recognize who they are, and so that's the associated with strep. And then we have PANS, which is pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric syndrome associated with anything and everything infectious right, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you have the one associated with strep throat and then you have just the syndrome, which can be from Lyme disease, mycoplasma pneumonia, mycoplasma pneumonia, chronic viruses like Epstein-Barr. We've seen a lot more with COVID, you know, since the pandemic, a lot of kids post COVID are having this condition. So, yeah, so it can be associated with more than just strep, but it's basically an overnight change.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's. That's the interesting piece of this. So when you say overnight change, it's a, it's a fairly quick, quick, quick, noticed change. That happens. Guys, can you pause one second? I?
Speaker 3:think there's some noise going on in my background.
Speaker 2:Oh, you got noise we can't hear it.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, we can't hear it. Sorry, edit that out.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's probably those three children back there, ours in it. They're probably breaking shit. It's like mom needs one hour to do a podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh my God.
Speaker 2:Okay, but it's, it's a quick thing, right, like when you say quick define that. Is that something like overnight or within a week or two? I mean, there's just major change of behavior, jen you said it all.
Speaker 3:I mean there's just major change of behavior. Jen, you said it all. I mean. You know most with most doctors don't know it can be all of the above. Commonly the patients I see will tell me oh gosh, I didn't recognize that my kid was having obsessive patterns or OCD or problems with focus immediately. Sometimes I'll see people like who is my son? The next day he woke up after this fever, breaking stuff, like you just said, or just being angry and defiant when they were nice and sweet and calm. So it can range because you have to determine when the changes occur and it's hard to figure that out right the kid is just being fussy or irritable or normal kid stuff, or if they really have an underlying psychiatric and neural inflammatory process Right, right, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I'm giving a little thought to this, because what happens then? If well also, I have so many questions, I'm going crazy, you're going to organize your shit.
Speaker 2:I have to organize my mind 50 minutes.
Speaker 1:So also like outbursty behavioral things, like tantrums and stuff like that. Did I hear you say that correctly? Oh God, yes, I mean like every day.
Speaker 3:I'll never forget one of my first pants cases. I mean like every day I'll never forget when my first pants cases. I knew the mom very well because the mom had Lyme disease and she would bring her cutest six year old son to every visit. He was so nice, so sweet. And then, a couple visits into it, she was like, oh yeah, you know, he's been ill, he got sick, I can't come to my appointment. The next week she came. That boy was throwing Kleenex, he was kicking the table, he was hitting her and I even recognized. I was like, yeah, you need to get your son tested for PANS or PANDAS, because I know him, I've seen you for a very long time and this is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what happens, though? If they don't get tested and things for this, like what happens, then it can get worse.
Speaker 3:I mean it's an auto immune process. So basically the way I always think of autoimmune is there is something nasty going on in your body May that be bad dieting, infection, whatever stress and your immune system becomes like a hair trigger and it starts to attack your cells. That's autoimmunity and this is an autoimmune neuropsychiatric. So just to break it down, it's an autoimmune process that's happening in the brain of these patients. So if you don't fix it, you're going to get worsening of this autoimmune process. Your immune system is going to get all crazy and stupid and start attacking any and everything going on in the body. And I call it ANDAS, adult onset, because you don't have to be a kid for this.
Speaker 3:Thank you Just continue with it down the road and it gets worse.
Speaker 2:And that's where we have seen this come in in our practices, because it wasn't like what you're describing. If you didn't have awareness of this, what you're describing, these behaviors, if I were a parent, I would go okay, psychologically, something's wrong with my son, right? So maybe he's got ADHD? Okay, we're going to start putting these labels on, right, as a parent if you don't have an understanding of this diagnosis, right? So when your child starts acting like that, or their oppositional defiance and all these labels, you know that they keep changing, when the damn DSM and ICDs keep changing, right, okay, but I know, thank you, you should have been on the episode where we burned ours.
Speaker 2:It was fabulous. But I think about this as a parent and I would be going I've got to get my kid to a psychologist right. So, or I've got to get my kid to a psychologist right, or I've got to get my kid to a therapist, because there's such a psychological component to this, within the behavior change that is outwardly seen, that if you're a bit naive to this or you don't have the awareness of other things this could be, you're sending your children to psychologists or psychiatrists for many years to work through these symptoms and then on the back end this is what Terry and I have discovered. Then, as adults, they come into our practice and we're catching these things as we go back through the medical history and start asking the questions about the illnesses Was your child sick?
Speaker 2:What types of things did they struggle with? And that's the stuff that pops, because I think that, as parents, if you don't have awareness, the illnesses you know. Was your child sick, what types of things did they struggle with? And that's the stuff that pops, because I think that, as parents, if you don't have awareness right you go.
Speaker 3:well, it must be a mental health issue, you send them to a mental health provider. I don't know if you would see that too, but you know that every single day, probably multiple times a day. Because, and then what happens? What you forgot to tell you know, the listeners, is that they don't. They go through all the psychiatric meds and therapy and it does not work.
Speaker 3:So now I'm meeting a patient who's been on, you know, antipsychotics, antidepressants, hospitalizations since a young, as a young child, and failed everything. And that's one of the first questions I ask, especially if people are under 30, it's hey, did you ever get strep throat as a kid? And another thing doctors need to ask is for mothers, especially sometimes because they're with their children, no matter how old the patient is, did you have to take antibiotics during pregnancy? Because group B strep, which is something we get screened for during pregnancy, has also been shown to be a contributing factor. So I see parents tell me, oh, moms will say, oh yeah, I had that strep thing. Parents tell me, oh, moms will say, oh yeah, I had that strep thing and, yeah, I've seen changes.
Speaker 3:He was very delayed. He was always a hyper kid. He was always a moody kid, even from the younger ages. But that's another great screening question. Not only did they have strep throat as a child, or people might say I don't know and say, did they take antibiotics as a child? That's always a red flag. And mom, did you take antibiotics for strep during pregnancy?
Speaker 2:So that could be a contributing factor as well from the mother's end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting, something that I'd never really thought of. And so I'm thinking about someone that we had who had tons of infections. They had mono, um, they had um, what else, john, I can't remember the other stuff oh uh, strep throat, all the things. Then it was delayed for a few years, like nothing really happened, and suddenly they had another infection and things went haywire. And things went haywire in the early 20s.
Speaker 2:But the behavioral things were there so much earlier, right, yes, but they were able to manage through all of that stuff until this point in time, after the most recent infection.
Speaker 1:So most people think about this for children like young children, and so it gets very in my opinion. I've seen it get dismissed as soon as you hit. You know, as soon as you're 18, 19, like suddenly you can't have these anymore, and so you're saying that you can and can it be onset at an adult age too, or is it mostly onset in childhood and then you figured out in adulthood age?
Speaker 3:too, or is it mostly onset in childhood and then you figured out in adulthood? So you answered that question exactly because you said that person who you refer to they had, you know, may have had strep at a younger age. And then your immune system is very robust because what happens with these infections? They cross the blood brain barrier, they go into the actual brain and that's where they kind of wreak havoc and start that autoimmune process. But everyone is different. You can be a completely healthy, optimized immune system. You can detox, never been in a toxic environment, never get another infection, just great wholesome diet and attitude about life and exercising and you're good. You may not get a flare up but, just like you said, you get another superimposed infection. You may have other causes of inflammation in your body, maybe not eating right or, you know, immunocompromised for other reasons, environment, et cetera and then boom it flares back up.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like the analogy I'm starting to use with my patients, which I think is pretty funny and cool and makes sense. Is that some of these other infections, like if your immune system is compromised? It's kind of like Michael Jackson and Thriller, right, the new infection wakes up all the zombies that you may or may not have known existed. They start dancing around the body and then you're scared. Exactly, that's exactly.
Speaker 2:That's great, I love that. Okay, we're going to use. We're going to use that. When we have patients that that uh might be uh dismissing the idea that this is a thing for them you know, um, that's a great analogy to actually talk about, because that's what the parents describe happens, um, happens with their kids, and even when they're older right, like this is our patients we get are the older ones that the parents are concerned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they actually wonder how many kids and adults are misdiagnosed and should be looked at differently. You know, I did. I did see an Instagram post that you had just this morning and I don't know when you posted. It just came across my feed and it was I think it was about ADHD and you said basically uncover everything else first. Do not go. Don't make medication your first priority. Make other things like diet. Could you expand on that a little bit in this context as well?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's very important because the one thing I love about working at the Amen Clinic is that we look at mental health as brain health. So all the doctors I work with who might be psychiatrists the reason I got on board is because they would send me brain scans and say, hey, this isn't psychiatry. I mean, it's more than depression, it's more than ADHD. They can't focus and they can't tolerate any of these pills I'm giving them or any of these other methods. There may be something else going on, and so you know that's Dr Amen. I work directly with him as well. It's like what else? And I put on my detective hat and I go digging and I'm like well, let's look at this brain. Maybe it's something else, inflammatory. Maybe they can't focus because they have sleep apnea Boom, did you rule out? Your kid can't sleep. Maybe they can't focus because their hormones are imbalanced. Did you rule that out? And then maybe they can't focus because they're in a water damaged building or they have this McDonald's diet that's really high and inflammation, sugary diet, and they're wondering why. You know you can't focus and you can't either.
Speaker 3:And then you look at the book. So I always, when I see a patient, I start with looking at hormones and sleep. That's huge. That's going to affect everything. Then we do talks about gut and diet, because the gut is the second brain. That's like I'm so passionate about gut health and holistic diet and making those changes because that's going to mess your focus up. If the gut is connected to the brain, right, and you're eating foods that damage your brain, of course you're not going to focus. Then we're looking at hormones and then we're then talking about all the toxic stuff like, hey, did you live in a water damaged building? What about that? You know metal in your mouth? Did you have metal amalgams? You got some feeling going on. So I started thinking about different toxins that can play a part in just this inflammation. And then we talked all sexy about the bugs. Then we started talking about, you know, the strep and the Lyme and the co-infections and parasites, and that's why, when you ask me what I want to talk about, look, I love everything.
Speaker 2:Sexy bugs that's what she wants to talk about. Sexy bugs, the sexiest bug ever.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you. So, on those spec scans, you can pick up inflammation, or you can pick up like it's just a piece of the puzzle, like what can you pick up in relationship to this topic?
Speaker 2:on, a spec scan up in relationship to this topic on the spec scan. I love spec scans, I love them. I'm supposed to go get one, dr Cornish, so is Terry. We're like we are supposed to go to Chi-Town and get some spec scans done, so we got to get on that.
Speaker 3:I'm a fangirl of spec scans and I've always been Like, when I've been working, collaborating with the Amen Clinics all multiple since 2011 right, we weren't doing. This was before Dr Amen came out with memory rescue, so no one really thought of the clinics as being more functional. But I just know they are smart. They're smart and I have my private practice. I'm like, okay, we got these pretty colors with holes in their brains and this is nice.
Speaker 3:When I was in my private practice, I'm like, ok, this doesn't look normal. They show me what normal look like. Then I saw abnormal and I was like, oh, ok, so now I use spec scanning almost all the time because I got trained in it, because I was so fascinated. I was like I need to understand this, like the psychiatrists do, because in my PANS patients or my Lyme patients, we can rule out other things. I love it. So it's definitely it's a 3D image. Okay.
Speaker 3:So it's completely different from an MRI or a CT scan, which the majority of my patients have had already, because they've been seeing like three or four doctors before they come to my doorstep and it tells what part of your brain is too active, what part of your brain is not working well enough, what other type of underlying if there are like trauma or ADHD or depressive patterns.
Speaker 3:And then the coolest part is it looks at these inflammatory processes that might occur by looking at something called parietal lobe it's at the top of the head right, and you look deeper you might see, oh my God, this person's brain is on fire. So there are areas of the brain that are overactive and you're like, oh my God, this is so awesome. This is why this person is ill. But then the even cooler part about spec scan imaging and I encourage it's not mandatory for my patients, but with my two week program I've had patients who've been frankly psychotic, who've traveled to see me, like, been impatient, and the coolest thing about the scans is that you can rule out other things that might be going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like a traumatic brain injury that you didn't know that you had. You know you forgot to tell me about that car accident and it's top, it's layered on top of the inflammation. So that's why it's like change. It's always been a big part of my practice because they sent referrals to me, but now I'm sending referrals to them, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and these the spec scans. They're looking at it. This is about blood flow to that area of the brain Blood flow and activity.
Speaker 3:So, like how active your brain is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so why is that important to measure blood flow to the area of the brain?
Speaker 3:Because if you have decreased blood flow, that could be a reason why you might be suffering from that brain fog or that chronic infection, because you can help heal that. You know, like brain cells, they can, you know, get healed. We're not like Lazarus once your brain cells die, they're dead, but we can help to revive them and there are things you can do if you focus on that, like you know in acetylcysteine, like hyperbaric oxygen, like sauna and getting people to just exercise, and that will lead to generation of new blood vessels.
Speaker 2:Terry's always saying that to me Go get your ass in a hyperbaric chamber. I love it.
Speaker 3:I'm like, yeah, you probably should Look, I fang girl about that too I am too.
Speaker 1:She got one in her house, it's fine the kids are down.
Speaker 2:They're fucking around with it right now I.
Speaker 1:I think we underestimate hyperbaric oxygen. Do you, would you like to speak on that a little bit, or is that?
Speaker 3:Oh my God, yeah, yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, I told you whatever you want, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm fangirling over you right now. I'm like give me all the juice, that's all I want you ready.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay. So before I joined full-time with Amen Clinic, I was a partner with someone and we owned, you know, hyperbaric chambers that were hard shell chambers.
Speaker 2:You got one in your house, don't?
Speaker 1:you.
Speaker 3:Awesome. So things that happen. You know you will hear about a lot of athletes. I know Michael Jackson slept in one and you know you might think oh, that's too.
Speaker 3:you know, bougie, for me I'm not gonna do it. But let me tell you something. It's gonna increase blood flow to areas of the brain that might need it. It's also gonna help you regenerate new cells. It's gonna increase blood flow to areas of your body that might need it, like. That's why they use it in wound healing right, because it helps with cell regeneration and blood flow. That's why we use it in strokes, because it helps regenerate new blood cells and nerve cells. We use it in decreased blood flow, concussions, injury, because of that same mechanism of action. But then it gets even cooler because it improves your immune system. It helps you with detox. You know there are papers that show hyperbaric low pressure and benefits from mold toxicity mold toxicity and it kills bugs. So there's a lot of research showing this antimicrobial effect.
Speaker 3:Antimicrobial effect right um for Lyme and co-infections, but specifically the paper was uh published online. Borrelia bedorferi that it went in there and it has some impact on killing these infections, which is amazing, that is amazing.
Speaker 1:So my son played college football and when he was done playing he was resistant to doing hyperbaric chamber or anything. The first three and a half years and then the fourth year he had a mild concussion, but I know all brain injuries. Brain injury I'm sure he had more, you know, throughout the course of time it would be impossible to not. But I literally threw him in a hyperbaric chamber. I'm like this is the time you're going to go in here now, when now you're done playing, please do it. And he willingly went in and did multiple sessions in hyperbaric oxygen. So from that point on I'm just like everybody I'm putting it in the parents page on the football like get your kid in a hyperbaric chamber. Like, please, just do this for them, like for their future, like you've got to consider this. You have to consider the health of their brain moving forward.
Speaker 1:You know, and I know people the whole football thing is very controversial. Sports are controversial, but at least take care of the health of your brain if your kids are going to be playing sports. So that's the bottom line for that. So can you expand a little bit? You mentioned Lyme disease. We have a lot of Wisconsin listeners.
Speaker 2:Yes, we do um.
Speaker 1:We have a lot of wisconsin listeners and um, yes, we do.
Speaker 2:Yes, could you explain what limes, not limes, lime disease, lime disease. You got corrected before we started. We did. I've said it like that so many years.
Speaker 1:Yes, can you explain how that might present in someone that they should get curious about getting tested and what that test would look like for Lyme disease?
Speaker 3:All right. So this is where it gets tricky, right, because there are so many nebulous symptoms associated with Lyme disease, and when we say Lyme, we should think about it as vector-borne illnesses, because there's something called co -infections that do their own thing, and those are terms that people might be aware of, like babesiosis, which is a tick-borne parasite, or Bartonella, which is another infection that lives in the red blood cell, but there are others like Rocky Montesquat and fever, just to name a few, just to give some flavor, because there are tons of bugs out there that can be transmitted by these ticks, these co-infections. And, honestly, when you first like, less than 50% of patients recall ever having a tick bite or rash. That's the majority of the people I see. I rarely see a patient come in the office and say, oh look, I got a tick bite. But a lot of times what does happen? When they do get those tick bites? They go and they may not get sufficient treatment. Right, because as ILADS I'm the treasurer and our organization we publish guidelines and we say, hey, look that one day of doxycycline may not be enough.
Speaker 3:These organisms can reactivate, like we talked about earlier, when your body is under stress. Lyme is the most you know popular Michael Jackson there is because it flares up everything and so you're at home, maybe a little fatigue. You're not remembering things like you used to. You know. You know you're getting fevers randomly. That can be the initial step. Know you're getting fevers randomly, that can be the initial step. That's where I hope to catch people when they're having fevers and just a little brain fog and memory problems in that early stage. But you have to remember there is no guideline that says official treatment. But our recommendations, as IELTS, is usually 30 daysally okay. Most doctors treat a lot longer. We're sophisticated enough in our field where we have MDs, nds and other doctors who might be using more integrative strategies for tick-borne illnesses, but minimally 30 days, not that one day, because it might reactivate later, even with 30 days of management.
Speaker 3:And you go and it affects all those areas we talked about earlier the hormones they even have Lyme can be in your gut. It is a toxin. It makes your response to other toxins even worse and then you start going around your life, oh, thinking it's behind. You get another stressor, get older, go through menopause, go through puberty, covid, epstein-barr the list goes on and on and that infection that was in remission flares back up again, and that's where it's a little more serious. And that's who I see.
Speaker 3:I typically see the patients who already had that initial workup and they're coming to my office now with, like, asking to be on disability because they're having dementia-like symptoms. And I forgot to mention in both stages you can have this, you know, migrating joint pain, and typically you think about flu like symptoms in the summertime, because who gets the flu in the summer? You know, those are some other clues as well as the people who are lucky enough to get that rash. I mean, that means they can catch it earlier. So red bullseye rash anywhere on the skin. So, second step, you're appearing and you're like, really debilitated. I mean, I'm talking about numbness, tingling on your soles and feet. I'm talking about, you know, lack of sleep impairment.
Speaker 3:I see people who've been misdiagnosed, honestly, with multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's, and we do some deeper digging and we find out. In fact it is tick-borne illnesses, so it can be that severe. So it's all over the spectrum. But the thing is, like we talked about earlier, you're going for treatments for other things, you know, oh, I feel dizzy from lying to standing. That could be Lyme. It's been published. Oh wait, I can't get better with my cardiology, with their treatments, and then it goes on and on. Oh, I have a headache, but migraine medicine doesn't work. Oh, I'm cognitively impaired, but you know, dementia meds don't work. And then, oh I you know, stimulants don't help me get better with my, with my energy, and it's a long list of symptoms. But I always tell patients don't think you need to have a tick, bite or a rash, don't think that. And so then you get into all the drama when it comes to the testing.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, there is a lot of drama here.
Speaker 3:I do know this Yep. Go ahead and bring it out so sad. You know the National Institute of Health. They recommend that if you don't have the two-tiered testing system positive and that's what we call a screening, and then enough of these antibodies, then you don't have Lyme disease. You don't have Lyme. What we find in people who believe and understand chronic Lyme is because these tests you might see this IgG and IgM. That depends on you having a robust immune system to mount a response.
Speaker 3:And on top of that, most people with Lyme disease are immunocompromised in the first place, so they're less likely to have a positive reading. And then you layer on top of it that the standard tests suck Lab 4 request. They miss about 60% of patients. That's why we have Lyme doctors on Capitol Hill advocating each state trying to pass legislation and virginia we pass legislation whereby a doctor legally can't tell a patient that they don't have lyme disease based on results alone. That's, that's the legislation. I mean we don't arrest people who do it, but we should.
Speaker 1:Lyme police.
Speaker 3:But yeah, so people in every environment, they're fighting for it. I know Illinois, near you guys, has a great Lyme Association in the Midwest, but it is. And then when you get to the more sophisticated testing, that's when it gets harder because a lot of them aren't covered by insurance, right, Right, that's the problem with a lot of the tests and then people are like I'm not doing it, I don't have money.
Speaker 3:I don't have the money to pay for these more expensive tests, knowing that they are better tests because they are more sensitive than Quest and LabMove. And that's what I always tell patients like, hey, especially if you have Medicaid Medicare rather, there are free, more sensitive testing that you can have done for free with certain Medicare plans. And if you need those answers, you know there are testing for every budget. Some test companies take partial payments or care credit or Klarna and all those things out there, but if you think it's very important for you and your child, missing it is very detrimental. It can lead to terrible, terrible results.
Speaker 1:So one of my, my uncle and his daughter, both had Lyme disease and she ended up in a wheelchair for a while. In high school she was a soccer player ended up in a wheelchair, and this school she was a soccer player ended up in a wheelchair. And this because, you know, traditional medicine failed her right to these points. Finally she got into a Lyme doctor, and so did her dad, and then they began their journey of recovery and it worked, you know. So I think underestimating the power of Lyme disease is detrimental to public health. I'll just say that out loud. And also I was thinking about someone that I know who had Lyme disease and then got better I'm air quoting, if I can see that got better and a couple years later said well, I again. And now I'm like wait, it never went away, it right, it just reflared, like you're saying yeah so I'm like that.
Speaker 1:To me that was very interesting to hear that. If it, if you catch it again, it's likely that it was never gone in the first place it was. It's just dormant for a while and a reflare, likely due to improper treatment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's so sad it happens every single day. I'll never forget. You know, I'm originally from Detroit and my residency was in the city you know, washington DC. But when I was at med school I saw my first exposure to a Lyme disease patient. It was a landscaper. They had that tick, bite and rash and my attending sorry to shout them out, but they said, oh, give them one dose of doxycycline, they're good. He came back the next week saying he wasn't feeling better and she was like okay, give him another one pill, he'll be good. And he wasn't feeling better and she was like, okay, give him another one pill, he'll be good. The fourth week he came by I'll never forget. She told me he was drug seeking. She was like don't give him any more antibiotics.
Speaker 1:There is no way Drug seeking and antibiotic.
Speaker 3:Drug seeking and antibiotic. I don't know if it makes sense. He had two doses of doxycycline. You know that's ridiculous. He's already had two doses of doxycycline. That's ridiculous. He's probably going to give it to his family, all kinds of things, and I'm not exaggerating, so from that point no, I know you're not. From that point only I was like, okay, they all drugs eat.
Speaker 3:I don't believe in that, and so even some of my med school colleagues and friends. I'm like why are you doing that voodoo medicine, Like give them a dose of doxycycline and get them out? Your office or they're crazy, and that's why so many patients are diagnosed as crazy and you know, anxious and oh, it's just insomnia.
Speaker 3:And it goes back to like what you said, carolyn, when you were talking about the kids. They're getting on all these meds, the same thing with Lyme patients, and they don't get better because you can't treat Lyme disease with an antidepressant or antipsychotic or stimulant. You can't do it.
Speaker 1:You can definitely make somebody worse by doing that, though.
Speaker 2:I was going to say you're actually, yeah, you're, you're actually creating, you're probably creating a synthetic brain injury that may maybe wasn't there in the first place, by by giving them that as well. Yeah, when you think about that, especially when they're younger. I mean, that's essentially what what some you know, we we have opinions on psychiatric medications here on the gas that you Podcast Not that I have one, but I do and so then you're adding this in right, sorry, not sorry, like no, I'm not. You add this into the mix and you're not actually again going. When you're talking about root cause, right, we're just layering layers of shit on top of things that are then changing the neurological makeup, especially of kids, right, when the full development is in their 20s, when we're getting through this. Right, you've already messed that up. There's an injury to that. Now You've changed probably some of the other immune features of the body, because we're talking about neurotransmitters. Right, they are through the entire body.
Speaker 1:So you've added a whole nother layer of problems, right, and then you got to dig through all that at some point, when they're flaring up again, or when they're older and figure out how to get people off those medications safely, and then try to get them off of it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And you can't really get them off of it if you don't treat the root cause. And that's why I love working at Amy Clinic, because the docs all the time we work on getting people on herbals and off these toxic psych meds that they come into the clinic with, and especially when I'm working with them, I'm like, look, my only goal, if this is really neuroinflammation which I think it is I want to get you off these.
Speaker 3:I want to treat the root cause and it's sometimes it takes a long time because these medications can have so many side effects when people are going through withdrawal and it's like a bandaid to their real symptoms and some people you know that side effect they think the symptoms came back, but in fact it's the like you said earlier, those neurotransmitters trying to stabilize when you remove something that's falsely supported them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure I could. I could imagine you guys having to really dig through multiple layers of shit when you look at this. Right, because it's there, there's a, there's an impact that happens from even when you were talking about Can you speak to us a little bit about, so, the treatment for Lyme, when you were talking a little bit about this, and the antibiotics that are utilized? Okay, and the course of antibiotics? Okay, can you talk a little bit more about that? I'm just wondering if you have any opinions on that too, especially when kids are younger, because we also know that if the antibiotic is going to help, you know, get rid of these damn sexy bugs. The other issue, though, is there's also residual impacts that can happen over time over too much antibiotic treatment. Oh yeah, okay, can you speak?
Speaker 3:to that, of course. Okay, and you have to support the gut during this process. Okay, antibiotics are a gift and a curse, right? I try in my cases to have that get in, get out mentality Like, okay, look, I know that there's room for this and there might be a need for this. Because I understand, even when I train physicians, because I'm a part of our Lyme physician training program, I say, look, you need to understand the basics, the basics 30 days it may or may not be enough. Then start layering on those herbals and other integrative treatment options and I think most Lyme doctors out there today understand that. They kind of want to see how, depending on how severe a patient's symptoms because, like I said, if they're presenting with multiple sclerosis symptoms, right or in a wheelchair.
Speaker 3:It may take a lot longer with herbals alone. So I think there's beauty in combining both of them when you need to and the patient's case is that severe, but at the same time you're taking the gut. But I also see value of trying to transition to more of a herbal only approach, so that you're rebuilding a person, you're not getting resistance, but you still have the ability to kill that microbe that we're using. Okay.
Speaker 1:And so I'm also thinking about PANS PANDAS here with this too, because they're people that have been through lots of antibiotic cycles and things like that too. So can you speak a little bit more to the to treatment recommendations for for that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so a lot of times it depends. I remember we said it can be strep throat or it can be a lot of other bugs as well. I always with my pandas kids. I support the inflammation. Remember this is autoimmune, so I'll do things.
Speaker 3:Make sure their diet is optimized or off the gluten and they're off the sugar, making sure I give them things. One of my favorites is what's called SPM active, which is a special resolving kind of. It's a derivative of shellfish but it's very, very good at decreasing inflammation. I also give my kids like broccoli extract you know there are different types of for fame which is great at supporting immunity and decreasing inflammation. And then, you know, making sure I do optimal detox before I look at some of my favorite killing agents.
Speaker 3:So as far as herbals, I love Japanese knotweed, I'm a big fan of berberine, I love an herbal called Cryptolepis Fantastic, and then there are companies out there that make herbals for pans and pandas. That includes multiple agents. There are certain companies out there, so I use a diverse amount of agents based on what the primary infection is and how my patient responds. Now, if they're coming in my door and they got severe gastritis and they can't tolerate foods and this. I might in that case start with a gentler herbal approach as I work and heal their gut and see what happens. Some people do better on herbals alone.
Speaker 1:You just don't know. Is this a different approach than traditional medicine would take?
Speaker 3:Oh, of course, Of course. Like I said, oh yeah, you know that.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do, but our listeners don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they would give you that one dose of doxy or those two weeks and tell you to go away because it's post-treatment Lyme syndrome and they would say Lyme, they would say Lyme, and they would say pandas, and they would say, well, I don't know what that means oh, I was saying pandas too.
Speaker 1:There's no.
Speaker 3:S in pandas. That's right, oh, okay, but you can also have, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:So everything is not associated with strep. You got that one. Let me clarify for the listeners. She is absolutely right. There is pandas, but the AS is associated with strep and sometimes people get that strep test. Doctors will say, oh yeah, you don't have it. But there are two antibodies ASO and anti-DNAs that, if your doctor checks, will tell you you have chronic strep in the body and that's a complete game changer. Or you know, traditional doctors are like oh, you don't have strep throat, why are you here? So that's associated with strep. But then when we're thinking about PANS, that know the other infections, like mycoplasma, pneumonia, like Lyme disease and co-infections, like chronic viruses, just to name a few.
Speaker 1:Even ear infections. Would that be part?
Speaker 3:of it too, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know that's very interesting to me. We only have a few minutes left, so I do have. I know I do have a couple of questions about you, because I'm always really intrigued on how someone with your background in traditional medicine made the switch. So what was the light bulb moment for you, or the precipitating factors for you, to kind of switch your thinking from traditional medicine to what you are doing now, to functional medicine?
Speaker 3:I needed a job.
Speaker 2:All right, you have to be like this.
Speaker 3:I'm in this field, I can't go back.
Speaker 1:No but seriously.
Speaker 3:I was doing primary care and I was completely bored and I was looking on Craigslist for a couch this is before Craigslist got super shady, yeah and I was like, oh, they have a classified on Craigslist. And so the job said I swear to you. It said for doctors that think outside of the box. And I was like I'm pretty out there anyway. Yeah, this is awesome. And when I started my first job they were into Lyme disease and I never looked back. That was really my story. I didn't. I wasn't a patient. I didn't know about Lyme disease growing up. I had no idea. I told you my experience was the drug seeker. And when I went to this practice and I saw these patients who were so sick and struggling and getting better with treatment, I told my husband. I said, look, I'm never going back.
Speaker 3:And my husband, when we were dating, he was already interested in holistic health. He actually taught me more about it. When we were dating, he was already interested in holistic health. He actually taught me more about it, like reading certain books, having certain conversations. He was never impressed that I was a doctor because he felt like herbal was better. And he's vegetarian. My kids are vegetarian, I'm not a pescatarian, but anyway, he tried to tell me more about just holistic health. So it just this is how it worked out. Like I meet him, we were early in our dating, then a job set for doctors would think outside the box. I really liked him. I said do you think I should apply? He's like, sure, that's cool and it was it?
Speaker 2:So here's the big question Did you find your couch on Craigslist?
Speaker 3:No, it was like so Did you find it? I was like uh-uh. I figured when I got this new job I would be able to buy a new couch.
Speaker 2:There you go, there you go, okay, so, so that really for you was the job search. Led to seeing that and something as simple as outside the box and you went hell, yeah, I fit that, I fit that and it was like an airplane.
Speaker 3:It was like it was like you know, got the job, then I went to another job and I got more patients and they came sicker. Then I met Amen Clinics and now I love the brain. So it was just like I could never turn back to treating traditionally. I could never do it. I love this stuff. So so, so, so much, like I love it. You know, my family lives, holistic lifestyle, we, I love it. I see the changes, like even with with my kids, if grandma comes over, because they're like low sugar, gluten-free, high protein, healthy vegetarians, not those fake ones. But if grandma comes over and gives them those treats, I'm like why are you fighting? Why are you screaming? Who's kicking who in the face?
Speaker 1:like what is happening shit.
Speaker 3:I hope someone does that pandas. No, it's sugar.
Speaker 2:And then when?
Speaker 3:they stop and they go back to regular, our regular lifestyle. They're back to being sweet Like you would love them. They'll hug you when they meet you, Sour patch kids with grandma Right. When they get that sugar. Oh my God, and that's why I tell all my patients I live this. I see it in front of my face.
Speaker 1:When it happens.
Speaker 3:it's like a light bulb, and then they chill back out when grandma leaves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's that's the cool part about something you said without using these words, but that example ties into it. We had somebody else as well that came on from Amen Clinic and he was talking to us about the same thing of there's the treatment part of this, but there's lifestyle change and you're talking about food, right and he was kind of saying the same thing, like, yes, we do the scans, we do all these really cool things, but along with that must come nutrition and exercise and nurturing sleep and, yeah, all the pieces to that. And that's a great example, because I think that that's probably a big, huge piece to this puzzle too is you have to change your lifestyle, too, to support the interventions here.
Speaker 3:And you have to meet patients where they are. That's one thing, Because when I first got to functional I got certified Everyone was gluten-free, dairy-free, sugar-free.
Speaker 1:Ice cubes. I know I was like fire hose.
Speaker 3:Every single person. They were doing better, but half of them gave up after two weeks. So now I've learned it's a barter system. So now I tell my patients hey, some people who I know are going to be dedicated, they're doing whole. Only they're doing that sugar free, dairy free. They are hardcore because they've been sick for so long and the proof is in the pudding. I usually challenge them with like a three-day detox or seven-day.
Speaker 3:I try to do realistic things. Or if they're like a pans, pandas kid or on the spectrum and they eat chicken nuggets and fries because they have texture issues and food issues, I just tell them let's creatively try a grape, let's try vitamins that might just be broccoli, because you got to meet patients. You're not going to win every battle and sometimes when you give so much pressure to do it right then and there they fail. That makes them want to give up and lose faith in the process. So I encourage my patients always to have faith and I pray for my patients all day because I know it's a long road.
Speaker 3:But I know the people who get better the fastest are those who have optimal lifestyles. The others I work with one patient told me one day I was like what are you going to give up? She was like I don't know. I was like what's the worst thing you eat for your brain? She was like Takis. I was like boom Next week, no Takis. Then she started giving me things and I was like if you don't, I'm going to add one more supplement to this list and one more bill to CB. So that's my barter system patients. You know they react to that because they understand they're going to come back with more and more supplements to compensate for more and more toxic foods.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you try your best but it's true.
Speaker 1:But I do say like you can't supplement your way out of a crappy lifestyle either. You know, like you're just chasing it and it's not going to work, but yeah this was a great conversation.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having it. It was so much fun, guys.
Speaker 1:Yes we'd love to have you back, because I know you've got more things to share, so many things Like.
Speaker 3:It's like a long list in front of me of things you didn't talk about. Next time I know we're gonna have to do it.
Speaker 2:We'll have to do a part, we'll have to do a part two. I know I get about five questions I didn't even ask.
Speaker 1:I'm like it's fine down for it, by the way if, if you're listening here and you're in just over, this is our first uh episode of season two, so welcome to the first episode of season two. Everybody. First episode, new year, new year, new episodes. So you lead us off, so you're going to be a tough show to follow. Just so you know this was a great show.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, happy new season. I can't wait to continue listening to you guys. Bring the truth. We need you out there. Everyone who's listening needs you, and I mean it. I'm so honored to be here. We need more like you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Thank you. That means a lot and if you've hung out with us this far, thank you for listening and make sure you like, follow, subscribe, give us some stars.
Speaker 2:We love all five, all five stars. Yeah, fill it up, give us some comments and make sure you share your truth at thegaslitetruthpodcast at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone.
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