Do Psych Meds Save Lives? The Answer Will Surprise You: New research with Dr. Teralyn and Therapist Jenn

Is the esteemed combination of psychotherapy and psychiatric medication really the gold standard for mental health treatment, or have we been led astray by conventional wisdom? On today's episode of the Gaslit Truth Podcast, we challenge the mainstream belief and examine the influence of the pharmaceutical industry in shaping this narrative. As trained dialectical behavior therapists, we unravel the complexities surrounding therapeutic failures and question if it’s the medications rather than therapeutic interventions that often fall short. We take a critical look at educational materials, inviting listeners to share any textbooks that unwaveringly promote this combination.

The placebo effect might just be the unsung hero in the story of antidepressants' perceived success. Join us as we dissect studies that pit antidepressants against placebos, revealing the often-overlooked power of psychotherapy as a standalone treatment, especially in severe cases of depression. We argue for the empowerment of therapists to lean into their therapeutic skills without defaulting to medication. Our conversation is particularly relevant for those in crisis, where the immediacy of medication might seem appealing but may not be the ultimate answer.

As the therapy profession evolves, the tension between traditional and modern views becomes more apparent. Inspired by a young therapist's self-care controversy on TikTok, we explore how personal habits and lived experiences shape therapeutic approaches. The episode highlights the transformative power of therapy, encouraging therapists and consumers alike to share their stories. We remind listeners of the invaluable role community and support play in mental health care, inviting everyone to contribute their insights and join our ongoing conversation.

The Gaslit Truth Podcast will be live and in person at the Feed the Recovering Brain Conference in Dublin, Ohio

Join us with the top names in brain health, including Christina Veselak, Hyla Cass, and Julia Ross, author of The Mood Cure.

We’ll be bringing you interviews and behind-the-scenes content as we explore how nutrition transforms mental wellness.

Chapters

• 0:22 Debunking the Therapy-Medication Combination
• 13:53 Debunking the Superiority of Medication
• 31:18 Medication in Therapy
• 43:02 Therapy as Game Changer

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:23

psych meds save lives. It's the battle cry of so many people and it's simply not true what we are. Your whistleblowing shrinks, dr tara, linda, therapist, jen and you are listening to the gaslit truth podcast. Yeah, yeah, thanks for yeah, you are thanks for being here. And we have a new thing. Everybody we want to. We have a thing, a thing. Yeah, we're excited for this thing because you guys all know that Jen and I do everything for the show, everything.

Speaker 2: 0:53

Yeah, no big production team, no big marketing team, no big sponsoring team that flies us across the country to fancy studios, that takes care of all this stuff for us. We don't have that. We have a big dream that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:09

We have a big dream, and so you can help support that dream by commenting, liking, sharing and also supporting us by buying us a coffee, and that link is in the show notes. So please, if you feel compelled, buy us a coffee. Help us keep the show going. Love it All right. So today is a hot topic, Jen I love this topic I love this topic too.

Speaker 2: 1:36

I got jacked up when you sent me some information on this, because, one, it's something as a therapist that I have spent a lot of time thinking about and before we got rolling here, um, Terry's like stop talking, Jen, you gotta say, you gotta say this, say this when we're recording like shut the fuck up, we have a show before the show.

Speaker 1: 1:58

We have a show before the show and I'm like stop.

Speaker 2: 2:00

Yes, you know there are. There are interventions as therapists that that we've been trained in. Terry and I are both trained dialectical behavior.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Therapists right which for those of you who know or don't know, that is the quote unquote gold standard of therapy for individuals with eating disorders, major depression, which we're going to talk a lot about today borderline personality disorder and addictions. So we were talking about this idea that we were taught in that treatment intervention which when a patient didn't do well within that intervention, the reason they didn't be successful within it was because the intervention failed them.

Speaker 1: 2:43

That's better than they failed the intervention by the way.

Speaker 2: 2:47

Which exactly it is right. Initially I liked that hook, I liked that swing to it, because most people when they don't do well in therapy, they internalize it and assume like I'm so broken, right, Like I'm so broken, it's my fault. However, today we're going to talk about the idea that that premise, that the intervention failed you, actually may be false, and it might not be the therapeutic intervention that failed you. It may actually be the pharmaceutical intervention that is failing you.

Speaker 1: 3:21

This is so fascinating.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Along with multiple interventions happening at the same time, right. So this is, this is exciting, because I think there are a lot of people out there and we want you guys to comment and tell us that there's many people out there that are doing multiple interventions to assist with their mental health. They have pharmaceutical interventions involved and they're also doing some form of of therapy. They may have that topped with some other type of medical intervention they're bringing in and they're doing somatic work. Right, they might be doing trauma therapy and psychotherapy and a pharmaceutical intervention all at the same time.

Speaker 1: 3:57

So how do you know what's working and what's not working? And this I mean. I'm impassioned by this because so many people and therapists have been trained to believe that the gold standard of mental health care is a combination of therapy and pharmacology.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Together, together.

Speaker 1: 4:21

And you can read it and I was searching for it and if any of our listeners have this, please send me a copy of the textbook, because I got super curious about who the authors are, who they're affiliated with, who the publishers are, who they're affiliated with, not that many years ago. I think he took Intro to Psych two years ago actually, and I was like give me that textbook. I want to read it, I want to see what it says and, of course, in there is all about medication, serotonin, all this stuff, and I clearly remember a statement in there about medication and therapy together are the gold standard of mental health care. It didn't say it exactly like that, but it said it and I remember slamming the book shut and going God it's still in there.

Speaker 2: 5:15

It's still in there, I mean it's still in there.

Speaker 1: 5:18

I was really pissed off about the serotonin stuff being in there, but Well, okay.

Speaker 2: 5:22

Yeah, so we were. Last night I was trying to search through books, right Like I'm pretty sure I burned and or sold all of my undergrad books. Um, yeah, yes, but we were looking for those affiliations. So, as Terry said, if we have any listeners out there that actually have a intro to psych, you're taking a psych one-on-one class um, could even be a high school class.

Speaker 1: 5:42

like, could even be a high school class. Could even be a high school class, yes.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Do us a favor, send us the name of the publication and the author, and even if you want to take a picture of something in that book, that talks about that. Medications and therapy. They are the Wapituli that has to be put together for people to actually be effective in treating mental health symptoms.

Speaker 1: 6:04

Send it our way, because I don't have any of those books anymore, but see this is not just the training, I'll call it the indoctrination of our students taking these books, all students, whether they're going to be therapists or not, all college students or even high school students that are taking this stuff, and particularly of therapists. So therapists walk out believing that they have less power. I don't mean power like individually powerful, I mean like powerful interventions and powerful presence. They walk out believing that the only way to do this is to add in psychiatry.

Speaker 2: 6:40

Add a psychiatrist into the mix, yep, or a prescriber of some sorts. That's got to be the again. That combination is the golden ticket, when, in reality, what we're going to talk about today and Terry's going to jump into some research that she found- because she did the work on this one everybody. That's just not true I did not of work.

Speaker 1: 7:05

I just went to the Mad in America website and I was like what's a hot topic right now? And this was actually listed in their top 10 blog posts that they had. So I looked on the top 10 and I was like, well, this is fascinating isn't it. So I love it when a researcher publishes a meta-analysis, because if you don't know what a meta-analysis is, it's a combination of many research articles, so they literally scan.

Speaker 2: 7:29

Yeah, they scour the research for you.

Speaker 1: 7:31

Yes, and they put it all together and so they've got I think this one and I could be wrong was close to 40 articles that they scoured different types of articles to come up with.

Speaker 1: 7:44

This scoured different types of articles to come up with this and there was no competing interests of this author, which usually is what happens on Mad in America. They'll only look at those things. But yeah, which is great. So this was a Harvard researcher and it's published in the journal called Psychological Medicine, which to me is funny too, because like we're in psychology and so many people like you shouldn't talk about medicine, I'm like the. The journal is called psychological medicine. So anyway, I thought that was kind of a little side note, funny for me. Anyway, it doesn't say psychiatry on there, it's a psychological anyway. So it was just published in February of 2024. So this is recent.

Speaker 1: 8:27

You know this is recent publication and you know they looked at psychotherapy by itself. They looked at psychotherapy with medication and they looked at medication alone to see what the outcomes were, to see what the outcomes were, and so what they looked at for outcomes was like major events like suicidality going to an emergency department, psychiatric, you know, like they have them here like an ER for psychiatry, psychiatric inpatients, right, going inpatient. So they looked at big stuff, right. They looked at the stuff that people talk about. Meds saved my life. That's why I started the show that way. So this is what they looked at and it was just fascinating to me, because also in this they talk about therapy. Right, and when any research article talks about therapy, they always talk about it in terms of CBT, CBT, yeah, like that is the only therapeutic intervention, that's all we do.

Speaker 1: 9:29

Okay, that's all we do, just so you're aware I want to be fair that a lot of new clinicians that is all they do Like they learn. I mean, that's how I started.

Speaker 2: 9:39

I mean, that's how I started and it was all truly. I mean, I think CBT is not only is that one, that one, we're taught a heavy amount of that, because I also think it's very easily translatable to most people, that combination of here's the thought, here's the behavior that follows it. There's an emotion somewhere in there, and what can we do with it? So that's fair, we'll leave it at that.

Speaker 1: 10:04

It's not terrible. It's not terrible, it's not horrific.

Speaker 2: 10:07

I still use it. I mean, come on, I do too.

Speaker 1: 10:10

I use it a lot actually with my clients. I don't use it in a manualized way anymore, like how we were taught, like worksheets and things like that, but so many people still do. I feel like that's a young clinician thing to do, but anyway, you'll outgrow it. If you're listening, you're probably.

Speaker 2: 10:27

I'm turning this shit off. These quacks are nuts. Yeah, you'll outgrow it.

Speaker 1: 10:30

So anyway, so because I got the CBT part. I of course had to pull up some research about what is more important the therapeutic relationship or CBT right, or the intervention. We'll say and it is out there over and, over and over again, that the therapeutic alliance or relationship either outperforms the intervention or makes the intervention better.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Stronger so, stronger so if you're going to a therapist, and this could go back to the DBT conversation. We just had that. That failed you. Well, maybe what failed you was the lack of relationship that you had with your group facilitator. Right, maybe what failed you is the group facilitator or therapist just doing the manualized stuff and not building relationships with you, you know.

Speaker 2: 11:21

So that's the failure part. There are things that can fail you in therapy Right.

Speaker 1: 11:26

Including other interventions right. Yeah, for sure, for sure, so anyway. So when they looked at interventions, most of them were group CBT, but there was one. There were 16 studies that looked at not a specific intervention. So that's interesting. I don't know what that was. I'm going to guess more. Just, you're in therapy, perhaps you know something. Anyway. So drum roll please, Because psychotherapy alone outperformed psychotherapy plus medication, what I love this, I fucking love this idea.

Speaker 1: 12:07

I love it, and this is even bigger for me. This is in children and in adults. Okay, so it runs the gamut. Psychotherapy also. Outperformed medication alone, yes, which to me Let that sink in for a hot second. I know right, I got to percolate on this for a second.

Speaker 2: 12:27

Percolate for, for those of you that are listening, there's like two big things that that that Terry just said, right? So medication alone versus psychotherapy Okay, as separate interventions. You're going to get more bang for your buck doing the psychotherapy than you are with the medication and and, and that's going to alone. Therapy alone is also going to just it's going to outperform the therapy plus the medication. So there's there's two different concepts here, but both of them are relating to the same, that same ending, and that my my opinion on this. All right, when we numb the shit out of ourselves, yes out of ourselves.

Speaker 2: 13:19

And this is what I said to a client this last week when you numb the shit out of yourself, how is it that you expect to actually get to genuine, authentic, organic spaces in therapy? How, how do we even get there? And it was kind of like a light bulb for one of my clients who has been. He's done the things. You've been in therapy for years and years and years and you've done some of the nutritional interventions, You've done some of the holistic interventions, You've done a shit ton of the somatic work right, but there's still something there.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Yes, yeah, well, but this is what people say, and I just had a comment on one of my social medias that said that I do all the things, including nutrition, and none of it works. And I'm like well I need to take away something Minus, minus and the minus, and by no means do I mean go cold turkey, you guys, you should know that better.

Speaker 2: 14:16

If you're listening to us, you know better. Give us a holler, we'll help you.

Speaker 1: 14:20

Exactly. You know better. Anyway, but the medication actually might be hurting rather than helping, and so when I hear people say the medication saved my life part of this they also looked at placebo medication versus placebo and placebo outperformed medication here too, and I'm like so the act? To me it's more about the act of getting help. So if you go to the doctor and you, you make the appointment, you go to the doctor, you show up to yourself, it's weird how you start feeling better after you take one pill, isn't that weird?

Speaker 2: 14:56

Yeah, it's fairly quick. I mean, we know from research on now we're talking a lot of the research that we were talking about here.

Speaker 1: 15:07

Just to clarify is for depression. These are all antidepressants actually.

Speaker 2: 15:10

They're all depression meds, so we got to clarify that too. But that is the space right when for some people it is very, very quick. For others it may take a few weeks, up to six weeks to kick in, whatever no no, no, hold on.

Speaker 1: 15:26

I'm not saying the mechanism of action was quick. I'm saying you shouldn't have an impact after a day.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Oh, I see what you're saying, yes.

Speaker 1: 15:36

But you did because of the placebo effect right, yes.

Speaker 1: 15:40

But in these studies, in this meta-analysis, they actually looked at SSRIs and SNRIs, so your typical medications that are prescribed if you have major depressive disorder, which is interesting to me too, because those are the things that are supposed to help you, Um, which I, which is interesting to me too, because you know those are the things that are supposed to help you. But I really just want to emphasize this, because when I hear people say medication saved my life, um, actually, psychotherapy would save your life too.

Speaker 2: 16:08

Um better.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Better than meds. And without the side effects right? Without the longterm, everlasting side effects that you would have. Right, without the long-term, everlasting side effects that you would have. And I think that's really profound because what actually quote unquote saved your life even going to therapy, there could be a placebo effect there. I went to therapy and I felt better. There's obviously placebo effect because you can't get a good relationship in one session, right?

Speaker 2: 16:34

Well, no, not unless you have some really strong characterological features that make you cling on to people, really, really fast.

Speaker 1: 16:39

Well, I mean there's that.

Speaker 2: 16:41

But that's not true. For those of you that are listening, some people may not know, when we say placebo effect, what that is, and it's essentially the placebo itself. Is the substance or the treatment which you're talking about here, right? Whether it's a medication or it's a therapeutic intervention, right, that's designed to really truly not have therapeutic value to it, right? And this is where someone experiences their symptoms improving really really quickly simply because they believe that they're receiving some kind of OMG treatment spirit, that they're receiving some kind of um OMG treatment. Um, even if that treatment actually like isn't um physiologically or chemically changing you. Um, we're not putting, putting something in that's changing the chemical balance of you. So it would be like someone saying here's a antidepressant for you and you're actually taking like a sugar pill that has no active medical properties to it.

Speaker 1: 17:39

Right, which we know. In many studies, placebo has outperformed medication too.

Speaker 2: 17:44

Yes.

Speaker 1: 17:45

So, really, this is harnessing the power of the mind, and so if you believe that something saved your life, you know that thing is going to save your life. And what I wanted to point out here is that, you know, this is for major depressive disordered people, children and adults who are at risk for ending their life, who are at risk for inpatient. These are like really unwell people, you know, and psychotherapy is still the gold standard for those people who are even in imminent crisis positions. That's interesting to me, isn't it? Because if a psych med can save your life quote unquote so can a therapeutic intervention right, without, again, all the side effects. And if you want all the side effects whatever, if you want to do it, whatever. But I particularly think of our kids. If your kid is struggling like that, instead of the first line is medication, which it often is for adults and kids think again and the empowering of therapists. Would you just get off the train that your clients have to have medication To get better In order for your therapy to be, effective.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Like what the fuck.

Speaker 2: 18:58

You know, I really don't like talking about that idea because when I think about it it really puts a therapist. Um, we will always be number two. Yes, Always, we, we, there. There is nothing that we are ever going to do stand alone.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Okay, that is going to prescribe?

Speaker 2: 19:19

Yes, there's nothing we're ever going to do stand alone. That is going to get get us. Get us through that. I that really bothers me and it never bothered me up until we really started to break this down a little bit. But think about that when you have a client that is coming to you, you've went through your traditional academic training, you get yourself into a space where you get to start practicing, whether it's a private practice, whether you're working for another entity, and there's always this extra piece that you've got to work really hard to bring in to your interventions, Because without that you're not going to be successful. Your power lies in the hands not of your abilities, but with someone else having to be in the mix.

Speaker 1: 21:12

All the time and it's funny because I've said this on the show. When I worked for the state, I used to think of myself as the right hand of psychiatry.

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah. And we were the eyes and ears. Think about that.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Eyes and ears. Eyes and the ears of psychiatry.

Speaker 2: 21:28

How many times would we say that? And usually it was because we were arguing with them about the fact that they didn't know shit about their clients. Because we spent hours with them every week. In fact, our offices were on the same living quarters that they lived on all day long, so we saw them all day in psychiatry, it seemed, you know, once a month for 15 minutes.

Speaker 1: 21:46

Or on call or whatever it was. You know right, yeah, but but we would literally do that to our own profession.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Yes, I am less than you.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Yeah, I am less than you, I'm less than psychiatry, and so it's interesting that I want to point out two things, because this was a pretty strong statement that the research said psychotherapy slash monotherapy, which means one therapy right. One intervention.

Speaker 2: 22:11

One therapy.

Speaker 1: 22:12

Was superior to combined treatment and to medication only treatment in reducing the probability of suicide attempts and other serious psychiatric adverse events or major depressive disorder. I'm going to read that one more time Psychotherapy was superior.

Speaker 2: 22:31

Did you say superior I? Said superior, you're talking about a lake or what.

Speaker 1: 22:37

But I'm like that's a really strong statement to make. It is, it is, and it's not something that we hear very often.

Speaker 2: 22:44

So this article that Terry is referencing, this is the Cambridge study article. Okay, the Cambridge study article. There's something else in there that I want to add that as you go farther down in the article, there's another noteworthy finding. I want to go back to something that you said about children. Near the end of this article it talks about comparative effects of psychotherapy as monotherapy, like we said, standalone intervention over the combined treatment, of doing two things together, like therapy and medications. Okay, and it was talking about specifically reducing the risk for serious.

Speaker 2: 23:27

These are the psychiatric adverse events the big ones, right.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Adverse events, the big ones, right. So someone trying to unalive themselves, someone having to go to the emergency room because they have already engaged in some form of a self-harming action, those that are committed temporarily, et cetera, et cetera. In this article it talks about the findings of this and just this monotherapy alone as only doing psychotherapy. Okay, this and just this monotherapy alone as only doing psychotherapy. They align with and also they extend warnings, as they say it in this article, to people who are regulating the drugs for kids. They say these findings aligned with and extend warnings by these drug regulators about the risk of heightened unaliving, particularly among the youth population. So these are our kids. Investigations are saying that the maturing brain is likely to exhibit these heightened susceptibility to unfavorable drug responses. And then it goes on to say with underlying mechanisms are still kind of shrouded in mystery, which I'm not sure about that I don't think there is a lot of shrouded mystery in what's happening to the young brain as it's continuing to develop in the young nervous system.

Speaker 2: 24:44

We know that we are stunting, altering, pausing, numbing, all these things, but I found that very, very interesting in that, specifically with our youth, with our kids Not that this isn't happening to us adults too but there is a warning, like heating warning to this idea that if you insert a pharmacological intervention, your outcomes are going to be kind of scary. We need to be paying attention to those, because we don't actually know all of the full mechanisms of action, of how they are impacting our kids, because it's all still developing. Now. I think it's a blanket statement for adults too. But think about that, right, like your central nervous systems aren't even developed until you're in your 20s and the brain is not fully developed until you're about 24 or 25. So think about that.

Speaker 1: 25:42

We've talked about this on other podcasts of I think it was you and Brooke Siem who were prescribed in late teen years. Yeah, teen years, yep and feeling like you were stunted, like socially, you know, sexually, all these things.

Speaker 2: 26:00

Don't even know how to have a relationship with people that's like socially appropriate.

Speaker 1: 26:07

Right, so well but, I mean, we think about what we're doing to all these kids and but this is just kind of the lesson that I found also this to be like they made some pretty bold statements they did which?

Speaker 2: 26:18

is why I was like holy shit, I got to talk about that line because that one was specific for kids, Because there's another one that says further our data underscore the importance of discouraging the routine prescription of antidepressants. Discouraging antidepressants.

Speaker 1: 26:37

It says, discouraging the routine prescriptions of antidepressants alone or combined with therapy for pediatric and adolescent populations.

Speaker 2: 26:46

There you go.

Speaker 1: 26:47

It says except perhaps for sertraline. Except perhaps Like they fell a little short for me on that one, sertraline. Except perhaps Like they fell a little short for me on that one. Oh no, you know, I know, Like yes, but anyway. But they made some pretty bold statements and the biggest ones is, you know, their call to therapists. Like to therapists, like, understand that, because therapists are bad at that. That because therapists are bad at that, Like, if you have, if you have a client that you're scared about them ending their life or their mood disorder just feels too much for you to handle. What is the first thing that you do? You need to go see somebody.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Maybe get some medication. Maybe you should talk to your therapist or your psychiatrist.

Speaker 1: 27:26

Yeah, you might need to up your or get a different therapist. Yeah, no.

Speaker 2: 27:30

Oh, whoops, that was a little Freudian, slip there.

Speaker 1: 27:34

Yeah, whoops, that was a little Freudian slip there, like it's really not who cares. I think some of that has to do with, like, our ethical considerations and trainings, right, because we are told how much liability we have.

Speaker 2: 27:44

So you know what Our new year, our renewal year, is coming up for?

Speaker 1: 27:49

you and I right.

Speaker 2: 27:50

For our licenses, right. So right now, anyone that's out there that is a therapist, depending on You're scrambling to get all your hours done In our state, In our state. In our state, Like our continuing education hours, we're scrambling to get them done right, Because there's so many hours that we need to do that are mental health related, so many in ethics. There's different areas they give us. Okay, I just did an ethics training a week ago and in that training it talks about this as an important intervention and I'm not. I really truly like. This is the shit.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Part of when you get curious is now you start to view everything you've ever learned in a whole different light. But I was reading that and going it's still being funneled in this way, it's still being taught in this way. Whether you're an OG like us or you're just new in the field, we're still being told that that piece is important, which contraindicates the research that's coming out and completely contraindicates the research about the therapeutic relationship, which, hey, everyone that has been out for a very long time, Forever, Forever. And so we get these mixed messages and we go well, okay, I guess I'm at fault, I'm failing, or the client is not getting better. We've got to bring this intervention in my challenge to people that are listening to this. Whether you are a provider, whether you're a therapist, a psychotherapist, or you're somebody, even if you're a coach, even if you do some mental health coaching, okay, Because this is in your realm to help people get curious about things.

Speaker 1: 29:37

Okay, Um, there's a lot of coaches. There's a lot of coaches out there that subscribe to the medication model.

Speaker 2: 29:44

They do, which is why I'm bringing coaches into play, because there's a lot of coaches out there and they do really good fucking work. I'm going to say that right now, like, oh yeah, they are comparable and people are going to hate this statement, but they are comparable to some of the therapists out there because, damn, are they good at developing a relationship with people? Yes, they really are, which we know is essential for this change. Right, but think about all of the clients you have. Think about the patients, whatever your title is, that you're working with. Do you ever have active conversations with them about their medications and whether or not that's helping or hindering the progress in therapy, the progress in coaching that progress? Because I don't think that discussion comes up enough in the therapy office.

Speaker 2: 31:39

I think coaches don't want to touch it because that's out of their scope, when in reality it's not. Their scope is to help, empower with ideas. That is what they do. Okay, you know who, and it really it has only been as of like the last year that I brought more of this. The last two years probably brought more of this into an idea for my clients, because why would you not Think of all the interventions we do that are unhealthy. We'll talk about unhealthy shit all the time. Look at all that caffeine. Look at all that alcohol. Look at that toxic relationship. We talk about this shit in coaching and therapy all the time, but we don't view meds in that way?

Speaker 1: 32:29

No, we don't Do. You know what's really interesting? So a couple of years ago and this was on TikTok there was a therapist and she was a young therapist in training. I think her name was Jess, I can't remember. I remember Therapist Jess, yes, yes, and she did she was slandered, oh my God, because she did a thing that said what makes me a good therapist? That was her whole shtick and she listed all the self-care things that she does. And all these therapists came on and just berated the shit out of this girl. Because that's not what makes you a good therapist is taking care of yourself. That's not because you don't drink caffeine. Does that make you better than somebody who does All this stuff?

Speaker 2: 33:17

And she went on there and they reported her and all this stuff they did and she was apologizing. She was apologizing, that poor girl. Now she was an intern too when this was happening.

Speaker 1: 33:26

She was training for her license. She was Yep.

Speaker 2: 33:29

She was getting her licensing hours, and so I do remember that. And that poor girl came on and publicly apologized several times, I don't think she was wrong on like they were like hard ass, like cigarette in their hand, going.

Speaker 2: 33:57

This is what makes me a good therapist, because I smoke a pack of reds every day and I drink a fifth of Jack and they're coming on and doing it Literally. Yeah, oh, my God, I remember watching this go. Okay, I got to get off of this because I'm getting too pissed and I'm getting too. I'm going to get too involved in this, right. But that poor girl, she wasn't wrong at all. She wasn't wrong at all. But that idea of taking care of yourself, the idea that here are the things that could work and here are the things that maybe don't work it was like she was calling every therapist out that doesn't fucking take care of themselves.

Speaker 1: 34:29

Right, right. Without saying it that way, but she's not wrong, right Right, without saying it that way, but she's not wrong. It's very difficult. It's very difficult to address a client's stuff. Like, if you're a hardcore drinker every night, are you really going to be addressing or even asking about your client's drinking habits? Are you no, if you smoke a pack of cigarettes a day or more. Are you really going to be challenging your client on doing those things? Are you really going to be doing it?

Speaker 2: 34:59

Probably, not, probably not no, it's the things we do that actually we push those ideas through into therapy without putting an agenda on someone, right? I never asked a single person about psych meds till I started realizing how bad they were for me, right, exactly. Now can I be slandered?

Speaker 1: 35:19

for that, because you'd be a hypocrite. Because you'd be a hypocrite.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Yeah, you're putting your agenda, on your clients, and we are taught that we do it subconsciously all the time we are trained in this way to not do that, but when in reality, we're doing it backwards.

Speaker 2: 35:31

Our lived experiences are the reason we often get farther with our clients, because we can sit with them in this stuff and we can challenge them. If there are things we've been through that they could start to think about that could be impeding their ability to move forward in therapy. So why psych meds aren't at the front of that? Okay, that's like the challenge for everybody. Um, because we didn't learn it that way, guys, and your therapist didn't learn it that way. Your therapist wasn't taught to consider psych meds as harmful. They were taught to consider it as a sister support. That's essential.

Speaker 1: 36:10

Or the only support that's essential.

Speaker 2: 36:13

Right, that's essential, or the only support that's essential, right, that's what your therapist was taught, and it's still being taught, right? So we're fighting a system a little bit here with these ideas, but are we, though? Because the research is now coming out showing this?

Speaker 1: 36:27

It's there, and I feel like that's our whole thing, is like to highlight these new things or old things that are new again, because a meta analysis isn't they don't grab new, look and see like what is real, what is not real, whatever. But it's up to us to again get real. Super curious about this and I just think this is a call out to therapists to get a little bit more empowered, that you have a lot more influence on people's mental well-being than you think, and it doesn't just come with one therapeutic intervention that you're doing. It doesn't just come with a you know one therapeutic intervention that you're doing. It comes from your ability to create a great therapeutic alliance you know with your client and not just shush them off into a, you know, into their family practice or psychiatrist to get meds.

Speaker 2: 37:30

Findings indicate, a positive therapeutic relationship was fostered with therapists who respected an adolescent's autonomy and sense of individuality while also offering experiences of emotional closeness and connection. That is the dual role that we are taught to take. But we are so afraid to step into that dual role sometimes because we are fear mongered. We are fear mongered by other professions. We are fear mongered that our licenses are going to be removed. We are fear mongered that someone is going to sue your ass and there goes your license, right. I talk to Terry about this all the time. I'm like shit. I can't wait, like I'm just waiting for the state of Wisconsin to take my license away from me with all this shit that I say Do not breathe that into the universe?

Speaker 2: 38:16

I'm just waiting, but we've talked about this because that is so ingrained, when in reality there's nothing wrong. I am staying in those parameters of that dual relationship. But the findings show. I just read that verbatim this is what made the change for those adolescents. Read that verbatim this is what made the change for those adolescents. Not the psych meds, not another therapy, therapeutic intervention being stacked on top of them. It was psychotherapy in that relationship. That's what made the difference in decreasing symptoms of depression, decreasing uh, unaliving thoughts and actions. That is what that's. That's, that's what it is, which is what we do, guys.

Speaker 1: 38:57

This is what we do. So I mean as therapists, like like this year, re-evaluate your role in the mental health system and for some of you you know there's going to be. When you work within the system, like the, you can't change the system you work in. There's no way we could change the prison system that we worked in. There's no way we would have influenced the type of change that needs to be influenced no way.

Speaker 1: 39:22

So it's really this you know, do it or get out, right, when you start not living in that state of alignment with your practice and you start knowing things, there's some systemic things that you cannot change. So maybe consider getting out if you're in that state of being, or doing a little pushback, bringing in some research like showing not everybody needs medications, but also if you're at the state where you're constantly referring for psych meds. Referring for psych meds this is going to be a pretty bold statement. Maybe you need a little more training or maybe you need a little more supervision in your ability or belief in yourself. Right, I think it's more of a belief in self that you can do this right, that you can help them without pushing them off into psychiatry because you're scared.

Speaker 2: 40:18

Yeah, and don't let somebody tell you that you just that standalone intervention, then create someone who can never function on their own because they're always going to rely on you.

Speaker 1: 40:29

Oh, that yes.

Speaker 2: 40:30

Okay, Because I got that a lot. I got that so much. Well, you're doing this and they're always going to rely on you. And what's going to happen when your clients get out into the world and they release from the prison and you know what A lot of those clients? They would call me and they'd say I'm doing so good? Yeah, Because I empowered you to teach yourself how to do it and that relationship we have with our clients. That's what makes that change. A little pill in your 15 minutes isn't going to make that change, Okay. So I like that call to action for those providers that are out there, but also consumers. For those of you that are consumers, go to your therapist. Ask them questions about the role that your SSRI or SNRI may be having on your ability to move forward in therapy.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Now you might. What you're going to hear. Hold on. What you're going to hear is it will get you to a place where you can actually, you know re-regulate yourself.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Now that your emotions are stable, you can get farther in therapy.

Speaker 1: 41:41

Right, if you've heard that line.

Speaker 2: 41:43

See, like that line is the same to me as the you know like chemical imbalance theory. These lines are in the same box.

Speaker 1: 41:49

For me If you hear that line.

Speaker 2: 41:49

These lines are in the same box for me. If you hear that line, okay, challenge it. Challenge that line, ask more questions. There is nothing wrong with the client challenging the therapist. You should be challenging your therapist or the psychiatrist or prescriber.

Speaker 2: 42:06

Yes, so I think that matters too, because we've got what we need therapists to think about differently, but then we also need the client to think about this a little differently too. Because, think about it, if research shows that the relationship you have with your therapist, just the relationship alone and just doing one intervention alone, is going to be the cat's meow for helping you get through depression, why would you not ask your therapist about whether or not meds are actually helpful in this or not? Why would you not ask your therapist about whether or not.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Meds are actually helpful in this or not. Why would you not pose that question? Well, right now, because the therapist is going to say, yes, meds are very important in this relationship, you know? So um, reference us, put us on the line or yeah, or leave like if they're only one track minded on this, if there's no openness to discuss alternatives, that might be problematic.

Speaker 2: 42:58

It may be very problematic.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Right, and I know I'm calling myself out. There was a time when I did all that shit.

Speaker 2: 43:05

We did. We did. It's in our Dirty 30 episode. If you all want to go, listen to our Dirty 30, our 30th episode, I even did it in private practice.

Speaker 1: 43:13

I even did it in private practice and I did it. And people are going to be like, oh my God, I did it out of fear. It was very much fear. It was fear-based.

Speaker 2: 43:20

Fear-based in what we didn't know too. I mean, for me it was fear, and then also what I hadn't learned yet. Right, I hadn't been taught this yet.

Speaker 1: 43:34

Right, that was before. That was really before brain health stuff for me too. So, anyway, that's our thing. It's a call out to consumers and to therapists to understand, um, that therapy alone actually is the game changer for you, even in your most desperate times.

Speaker 2: 43:48

That feels good. I love it we are the guests, the truth podcast, your Dr Tara Lynn and therapist Jen. You can get us anywhere that you listen to podcasts. If you've got stories, consumer stories or things you want us to know about, or you want to come on this show because we are cat's ass, that's right. You can email us at thegaslitruthpodcastgmailcom. And don't forget if you're feeling like you want to support in any other way, go ahead, buy us a coffee.