The Gaslit Truth
Welcome to The Gaslit Truth Podcast – the mental health wake-up call you didn’t know you needed. Dr. Teralyn and Therapist Jenn are here to rip the bandaid off and drag you into the messy, uncomfortable, and brutally misunderstood world of the mind.
Think you’ve got it all figured out? Think again. Everything you thought you knew about mental health is about to be flipped on its head. From outdated diagnoses to the shady underbelly of Big Pharma, these truth-telling therapists are here to tear down the myths, expose the industry’s dirty secrets, and unpack the uncomfortable realities most people are too afraid to touch.
In a world drowning in misinformation, The Gaslit Truth Podcast cuts through the noise with raw, unfiltered conversations that break down walls and challenge the so-called experts. This isn’t your grandma’s therapy session – it's a relentless, no-holds-barred exploration of what’s really going on in the world of mental health.
Warning: This podcast isn’t for the faint of heart. It’s for those who are ready to question everything, confront the lies head-on, and dive deep into the truth you were never meant to find. Because real healing starts with facing the ugly, uncomfortable truths nobody wants to admit.
Welcome to The Gaslit Truth Podcast – where mental health gets real, the revelations are explosive, and nothing is off-limits. Tune in, open your mind, and prepare to unlearn everything you thought you knew.
The Gaslit Truth
Senator Tina Smith Gaslights Antidepressant Survivors at the RFK Jr. Congressional Hearings
What if the narrative around antidepressants and mental health stigma has been all wrong? Join us as we, Dr. Teralyn and therapist Jen, unpack the controversial claims linking SSRIs to behaviors like school shootings, sparked by a fiery debate between Senator Tina Smith and Robert F Kennedy Jr., RFK Jr. Senator Smith opens up about her personal journey with SSRIs, shedding light on the critical role of accessible mental health care and challenging the narrative that medication alone can transform personal relationships. Together, we argue for informed, balanced conversations about mental health treatments that transcend political bias and misinformation.
Imagine experiencing withdrawal symptoms so severe they mimic drug addiction—yet it’s from antidepressants. We tackle the often-overlooked complexities of psychiatric medication withdrawal, highlighting the inadequate research on tapering methods and the stark reality that many face. Our discussion questions the prevailing narrative of lifelong medication, urging a more comprehensive understanding of the benefits and risks associated with antidepressant use. Through personal stories and staggering statistics, we reveal how withdrawal can be misinterpreted as relapse, calling for transparent discourse and genuine informed consent.
Can we break the cycle of mental health stigma and oversimplification in treatment approaches? We explore the weaponization of stigma, challenging assumptions about antidepressants' links to aggression or suicidality, especially during withdrawal. By encouraging broader, more nuanced conversations, we aim to dismantle simplistic narratives and highlight diverse experiences. As current political events ignite burnout, we share our commitment to fostering inclusive discussions, inviting listeners to engage with us and share their own stories. Join us on the Gaslit Truth Podcast as we strive for a world where mental health dialogues are informed, compassionate, and stigma-free.
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
Even your congressman gaslights you about your experience with psych meds. We are your whistleblowing shrinks, dr Teralyn and therapist Jen, and this is the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Welcome, everybody, welcome. This is going to be something I'm so fired up about this.
Speaker 3:I'm fired up because I figured out how to bring some technology into this. Oh yeah, this, I'm fired up because I figured out how to bring some technology into this. This is not my forte at all, but we had to play this YouTube clip as part of this episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so if you want to see the YouTube clip, make sure you're watching this on YouTube as well, or watch it on YouTube later. But it's been going around and I need to thank your functional nurse because she's the one who brought this to my attention, because I've been staying off of social media and news and things because I just can't handle it, until she showed me this and I was like Jen, yeah, we got to do an episode on this.
Speaker 3:So what you guys are going to see is a clip from YouTube, and in this clip it's titled Do you Think that People who Take Antidepressants Are Dangerous? Tina Smith-Grills, RFK Jr. So what this is is Democratic Senator Tina Smith, from Minnesota, and she is bringing up the idea of antidepressants and whether or not it creates dangerousness, which was based off a comment that RFK had made correlating antidepressant use and school shootings. So that's kind of the background of what we're going to show you.
Speaker 3:So now we've got some good research to bring in on this, because it makes sense to bring in a little bit of research and not just talk and try to use big words.
Speaker 1:Not that people do that Well, she does that a lot. I know she throws in a lot of words that she has no idea what she's saying. Yeah, we got to also do it.
Speaker 3:Terry and I are not making this like a political swing here for anybody, saying you need to believe this If you're a Republican or you're a Democrat, okay, please remove that from your brain when we do this episode, because this is about just getting curious about all sides of this and for us at least in our lens, some of the harm that's being done. A harm at high levels right At very, very high levels All right, we're going to start this clip and we'll see what we got going here.
Speaker 1:Roll tape.
Speaker 2:Shootings and antidepressants and in fact, most school shooters were not even treated with antidepressants, and of those that were, there was no evidence of association.
Speaker 4:I don't think you can say that Senator because HIPAA rules, nobody knows.
Speaker 2:Well, that is Mr Kennedy. Do you think that people who take antidepressants are dangerous?
Speaker 4:I think, listen, I'm not going into HHSHS if I'm privileged to be confirmed with any so you can't say that people who impose any preconceived ideas that I may have.
Speaker 2:I'm just so you're not saying that they aren't dangerous, which means that they could be, dangerous. Let me ask you this that's not true, you've described Americans who take mental health medications as addicts who need to be sent to wellness farms to recover. Is that what you believe?
Speaker 4:Of course I didn't say that anybody should be compelled to do anything.
Speaker 2:But you said they should be sent.
Speaker 4:I said they should be available to them. I didn't say they should be sent.
Speaker 2:You said that folks that take antidepressants are like addicts that folks that take antidepressants are like addicts that I can provide that?
Speaker 4:Mr Chair? Oh, I think they should have the availability. Listen, I know people, including members of my family, who've had a much worse time getting off of SSRIs than people have getting off of heroin. The withdrawal period is I mean, and it's written on the label I have some experience with this myself, mr Kennedy.
Speaker 2:This is personal for me, when I was a young woman and I was struggling with depression. Thankfully, I had the resources to help me get through it, including a new generation of SSRI uptake re-inhibitors, which helped to clear my mind, get me back on track to being a mom and a wife and a productive, happy person, and I'm really grateful for that therapy. So I have some experience with this and I think that everyone should have access to that care and your job as secretary is to expand access to care, not to spread lies and misinformation. And you know the things that you say, Mr Kennedy.
Speaker 2:They live on, they have impact, and you know we're having this conversation at the same moment that my Republican colleagues are looking to try to figure out how to save money any way they can, so they want to cut Medicaid. Let's just think about this for a minute, because you're going to be, should you be confirmed, you would be responsible for CMS, which provides mental and behavioral health care to millions of Americans. Close to 40% of folks on Medicaid have a behavioral health condition and you would be part of this administration that would be looking to cut Medicaid. So, mr Kennedy, these statements that you've made linking antidepressants to school shootings. They reinforce the stigma that people who experience mental health every day face, every single day, and I'm very concerned that this is another example of your record of sharing false and misleading information that actually really hurts people.
Speaker 4:Senator, you're mischaracterizing my statement.
Speaker 2:I am only putting into the record what you have said, Mr Kennedy.
Speaker 4:You're mischaracterizing my statements and I'm happy that you had a good experience on SSRIs. Many Americans have a very good experience on it.
Speaker 2:Others have not, but that would be an issue between them and their physicians and not for the future head of HHS to be putting out misinformation about the dangers of SSRIs and other anti-depression medication, spreading the stigma and the fear that we're actually trying to overcome.
Speaker 4:Do you think physicians, when they make that prescription, ought to have access to good science Of?
Speaker 2:course they do.
Speaker 4:That's all I believe too, and you and I are in agreement, senator.
Speaker 2:And to your point that you made. When you made these statements, it was not based on good science. I don't know what it was based on, I was saying the science needed to be done.
Speaker 4:I was saying these are potential culprits, we're coterminous. And I named other things. I said video games.
Speaker 2:I said social media. I said SSRIs have a black box warning warning of suicidal. Mr Chair, I will submit to the chair the information that I have about what Mr Kennedy has said linking antidepressants to school shootings.
Speaker 1:Thank you, let's take a collective moment of silence.
Speaker 3:I found myself teary-eyed with the correlation between antidepressants withdrawal and addiction and heroin addicts. Anybody who has gone through this especially knows, which is what we're going to talk a little bit about, with some of the research on what happens when people start to withdraw off these meds and how it ruins their lives. So that one hit me pretty hard as I was recontemplating my whole life yesterday because I'm going through withdrawal.
Speaker 1:Well, what's interesting is she stopped short of saying she took medication, didn't she? She said she took therapies, and I don't know if she's saying that medication is therapy or she went to therapy, I don't know. So maybe you hit something else on that. But the one thing I wanted to start with this is that she says are you saying that people who are on SSRIs are dangerous? This is what she said. And by saying that, you are stigmatizing mental health.
Speaker 1:And I think she's confounding these two ideas, because we've talked before that people who have mental health diagnosis aren't dangerous people in general, right, but so she's confounding those two things, because there is 100, and this isn't all people, for sure but there is 100% correlation or causation, even between taking SSRIs and SNRIs and increased aggression, increased irritability, increased homicidal thinking, behaviors, actions, suicidal thinking, and he was saying there's black box warnings on this that say that, and she's literally gaslighting the shit or dismissing it or basically cutting it off and saying we're not talking about that right now. Yeah, we're not talking about the other side, and this is the problem with everyone fucking jen. Like everybody, we're not going to talk about the other side and this is the problem with everyone fucking Jen. We're not going to talk about the other side at all, because if we talk about the other side then we are stigmatizing people getting there.
Speaker 3:In fact, you have to have the qualifications to talk about the other side. I've been called out on that twice now on social media. What qualifications does therapist Jen have to make these types of statements?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:She's smart enough to read research and she's seen some shit and she's going through it. I've lived it. No, you're not.
Speaker 3:According to Tina Smith, you are not going through this, jen, so let's talk about a line she said and then we can tie this into the article we have about SSRIs have helped me to become a mom, a wife and a productive person. Okay, we've got to talk about that because I also believe there are a lot of people out there even maybe listeners that are listening to this going. That is 100% accurate. I took this medication. Okay, I now can function as a productive mom, as a wife you know, I can work because I have this.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, it's given to you under these ideas that it'll make you a better mom and a better wife and a better productive member of society. That's how it was given to me when I was pregnant, like, do you want to be a good mom or not? That's how it was not taken from me. Yes, that's how Jen stayed on it for years and years and years.
Speaker 3:What kind of mom are you going to be if you go off? Yeah Right.
Speaker 1:What the fuck is that about? I'm so mad today.
Speaker 3:Sorry about my language everyone.
Speaker 1:You said that I'm really not sorry.
Speaker 3:Okay. So when she said that I'm thinking about and I think it makes sense to bring up this research article that we're going to talk about. And when she said that, I kept thinking about, as a mom, a wife, a productive person, what I've all missed out on relationships. We lose out on connections, we forget time, we literally forget important memories that have happened to us right.
Speaker 1:That's what I call it. All these six years of memories stolen.
Speaker 3:Memories are gone. Decisions that you make are made in a very disconnected, dissociative space. You're not able to connect emotionally with your husband, with your children, with your best friends, right, and then you try to get off of it, which is where RFK is not wrong when he says the addiction that is there, he's not wrong. He is not wrong, you can call it dependent.
Speaker 3:You can call it whatever the hell you want. He compares this state of being with these drugs to that of a heroin addict. And the concept of addiction yeah, send me to a wellness farm.
Speaker 1:We've had someone on the show who's creating a wellness farm just for this.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'd give anything. Do you know how much better off I would be in going through this titration if I went and lived somewhere for a handful of months and took care of myself, right?
Speaker 1:Why is it okay to say go to a lockdown inpatient but it's not okay to say go to a wellness farm? I mean she was trying to say that he wants to round people up and force them to go, which is a whole lot of bullshit.
Speaker 3:Again, taking stuff out of context which there probably is right. This is politics right so even what we are getting on YouTube, you guys. This is like a third of the truth, right, but damn.
Speaker 1:I mean, there is a rehab in Hawaii. Actually, that reminds me of something very similar to what he's talking about, and it's actually like a 36-month program or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so let's talk about what happens, though, when that is not there. For people, antidepressant withdrawal symptoms are linked to life-altering consequences, according to a new study, so this is what we're going to talk about. This was published by Mad in America here in January this last year.
Speaker 1:The research article is not published by Mad in America.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the article about it.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:The research article that's linked to this. These things that we're talking about here, Life-altering things.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, well, they talk about. 80% of the participants withdrawing from them had moderate to severe impacts on their lives, including disrupted work, strained relationships and even the loss of family. 40%, or almost half of them, said they lasted more than two years and 25% were unable to stop taking antidepressants altogether because of the withdrawals. We've talked about this addiction piece piece and we get so much shit about people like you. You are, yes, well, I mean, because the same thing like this is not an addiction. This is not. I'm like, really, people in addiction can't get off of things either, because of withdrawal.
Speaker 1:They withdraw, they get sick, they want to get back on. So why is this different?
Speaker 3:I know, and the study okay, that this is tied to everybody. It's called the Nature and Impact of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms and a proposal of the DOS, which is a discriminatory antidepressant withdrawal symptom scale. So they took a cohort, a pretty big chunk of people who were already attending A few thousand right, yeah, yeah, it's close to that. It was 1,200.
Speaker 3:1,200 respondents that were part of these groups that were reaching out for help with their antidepressants and they ended up giving them this survey. And on this survey there's 15 questions about antidepressant withdrawal symptoms and what's interesting is people had to answer did you have these symptoms prior to starting antidepressants? And then do you have these symptoms now that you're either withdrawing, coming off of the meds, or you're off of the meds? And the results are what you just read. Terry right, the percentages. Those are the results.
Speaker 1:So the question I have is you know, are we actually disabling people If 80% experience disrupted work, strained relationships and even loss of jobs? Are we actually disabling people and I have said this probably a million times If psychiatric medications were the answer, don't you think that depression and anxiety, even ADHD, would be eradicated? But people seem to be worse and they keep talking about, oh, the mental health crisis in America. Even though more and more and more people are medicated, we are still calling it a crisis of mental wellbeing. Well, let's take a step back. Like hold on, hold up, because aren't recording reporting that they feel better, you know. But and then, when they do, they get gaslighted into conversations like this lady, you know, like, don't you want to be a better mom and a better wife and a better you know all these things?
Speaker 1:And it's like what or maybe the medication is what's keeping you to this place, that you feel like you can get off of it. Or maybe I feel like shit and I'm too afraid to tell you, because every time I go in, you just give me more.
Speaker 3:You know, I also think about the thing that you at least from personal experience. I didn't recognize how bad it was and what I really missed out on until I started to go off of it. Correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's the bitch of this whole thing because you try so hard the idea of informed consent, to be able to lay something out for people and go. It's very likely that maybe even short-term, you won't experience. Because what is informed consent when you take these medications? It's. It's a lot about what RFK was talking about. There are black box warnings.
Speaker 1:He actually mentioned informed consent, I don't know in this video, but maybe before it. Like he said, what I want is informed consent. Yeah, it was in the clips.
Speaker 3:There was like two minutes before this one, yes, was what other things he said that?
Speaker 3:And I think that when there's a warning on a medication that is given, right, Like hey, there's a suicidality. I remember my providers talking to me about this and every time I go in are you suicidal, Are you feeling overly depressed? They go through the main five key features of major depression. Okay, Boom, boom, boom, boom. Check the list right, but what isn't there is this kind of stuff that's being published now, which is this is the aftermath of what happens later. Right, this is the later stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, this is what argue, but this is why you need to stay on it, because if this happens later, you know what I mean. That just means that your brain is broken and you need to stay on it. I would argue they're right. Your brain is broken now Like it is broken and you need to stay on it, which I would argue they're right. Your brain is broken now it is broken, and you're going to experience some of this stuff which is probably harder to get out of, Jen, than the original problem that you had Of the 989 people who responded to the question about whether or not they experienced withdrawal symptoms, 971, which is 98.2% of those that responded to this one question, okay reported they experienced them.
Speaker 3:Only 18%, which is 1.8% of these people, said that they had not. Interesting 98% of people I are identifying withdrawal symptoms.
Speaker 1:And 100% of those 98% have probably been gaslit by it, probably.
Speaker 3:Yeah, probably.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It just means that you need it or you need more, or get back on it, or all of these things.
Speaker 3:Okay, and I got this study up in front of me. You know all of these things and I you know, here's okay and I got this study up in front of me, so I got to say this too. Something I found to be very impactful on here is the duration of withdrawal.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just going to mention this.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, so the duration of withdrawal. Okay, okay, like this blows my mind Over like 20% of the people in this study went through withdrawal that lasted at least three to six months. Now they do define withdrawal based off of all of these symptoms. Personally, for me, there's a bunch missing, right, because there's only like 15 symptoms, guys, on this questionnaire that they measure by the way, they do mention akathisia as part of it for SSRI, snri, which we're not really talking about.
Speaker 1:We talk about that when it comes to antipsychotics right Correct.
Speaker 3:Yes, because it wasn't in the lingo for antidepressants.
Speaker 4:It still isn't, Even when you look it up now.
Speaker 3:it talks a lot about the antipsychotic meds and not the antidepressants. Yes, um, cause a lot of that research was was going um more so in the psych psychotic med realm instead of the antidepressants. But it's in there, which I love because it is a thing Okay. But so 19.4% of people in this study, uh, went through withdrawal that lasted between three to six months. Okay, through withdrawal that lasted between three to six months Okay, 16.2% went through withdrawal that lasted one to two years.
Speaker 1:Everybody listened to this.
Speaker 3:I mean one to two years guys, which that doesn't surprise, it doesn't going through this. I'm not, I don't doubt that at all Okay, and over 8% of people, their duration of withdrawal was greater than five years. Five years.
Speaker 1:So if you went to the doctor and they actually gave you informed consent and you started talking about things like will I withdraw from this and how long these numbers should be used, right, and so if they said like, how many percentage was five years? Like if they said, or two years, and they told you the percentage, then you actually can be like is that something that I'm willing to participate in down the road? Because what we do know is the majority of mental health issues I said majority, I believe majority, somebody can correct me but depression and anxiety, like usually is, it doesn't last forever. Like when you get to that place. That's super difficult, it's not.
Speaker 1:You're not always going to be in that space, you know over years. So you know you have to start questioning like are there other ways to get out of this space? Or I'm going to have a new set of symptoms for up to five years when I'm trying to get off of this, right? I'm going to have a new set of symptoms for up to five years when I'm trying to get off of this, right? So I don't know, like this, this whole thing, if, if full informed consent were actually a thing, these numbers would be shared you know they would, or even the full informed consent that.
Speaker 1:You know, the episode that we just did about how psychotherapy outperformed medications, how psychotherapy outperformed medications, how psychotherapy outperformed psychotherapy and medication combined why is that not part of the alternative of full informed consent? You know, if somebody said, well, yeah, actually the gold standard is just psychotherapy, okay, I would do that because I'm not going to be withdrawing for five years after that.
Speaker 3:Well, that's just it, and I do think it's intriguing. It goes back to something you stated before, and now we have a study in front of us that is highlighting this the idea that if these meds worked right, if they worked, we wouldn't continue to have these symptoms that are popping up In this study 18.2% of the people that decided because they talk, they also measured why did people decide to go off. 18% of them said because that drug wasn't working. So you've got a chunk of these people that are going. I'm going off because it's not working.
Speaker 1:Well, when the quote unquote working percentage is like less than 30.
Speaker 3:And here's the deal. They differentiate between the drug no longer working and the drug did not help. 18.7% of people said the drug didn't help. This is why they were going off of it, right? So I think that's also a part of informed consent. That's missing is having that active discussion about there is a likelihood this isn't going to work or help or help, that it might start but then it's not going to continue, which we know. That is the case with antidepressants and how they impact the brain. We know that we need more over time to keep it going, because our receptors are starting to get so fucking sleepy it's not working anymore and that is not.
Speaker 1:Here's another gaslighting term optimizing your medication. It's like go flush that term down the toilet.
Speaker 3:Listen, if you put the word optimizing on anything, it means you're making it better, right. But again, why are we optimizing shit that's supposed to work in the first place? What the hell do we need to optimize for? Why are we optimizing? Because you're treatment resistant.
Speaker 1:That's why it's your fault, yeah, your fault.
Speaker 4:You need a booster.
Speaker 1:You need a booster. Yes, I want to bring in this idea. She said I wrote so fast I can't even read my own goddamn notes at this point. You're spreading misinformation and lies, and she is you're. You're reinforcing the stigma of mental health and I wrote what the fuck is the stigma? And I'm like that whole. We've talked about the stigma of mental health before and I'm like.
Speaker 1:So the only way we can talk about mental health to reduce the stigma is to say how great medications are and they have zero side effects or zero risk involved, even though they have a black box warning, nothing to see here. They just had to put that on there, you know, I mean, it was just something that they had to do to cover their own ass. Essentially is how we view it. Or even using anti-psychotic medication in children to make them sleep what the fuck? I don't think we should be using any of this shit off-label. I think. If there's a black box warning, that should just be removed from the market, how can you say that? How can you say that it increases suicidality, homicidality, aggression, all of these things into people up until they're almost 30 now Probably more, except I think what it does to older people is, numbs them out and you know chemically you know it does, and then it increases the risk of mortality by about 60 to 70 percent once they are over the age of 65.
Speaker 3:And they've been taking antidepressants for many years, right?
Speaker 4:I'm making that up.
Speaker 3:I'm making that up according to some people on TikTok.
Speaker 2:They don't like that Exactly. They don't like that at all.
Speaker 3:They don't like me and Leslie Korn talking truth about statistics on what happens when you put elderly individuals on these meds for major depression the tricyclics in particular.
Speaker 1:This is what happens when you cherry pick the information you want to use.
Speaker 3:Okay, and that's just it. That really is right.
Speaker 1:I used to do it and, to be fair and honest with you, I cherry pick information about how things don't work now, because I want to see it, because nobody is talking about the other side.
Speaker 3:You know, I just had a thought, because I've been getting a lot of slander here recently on some of the TikTok stuff I've been putting out and a lot of people are saying I'm in the medical profession, what you are putting out is very dangerous. I want you to show me all the studies. Okay that you are-.
Speaker 3:Well, get them yourself the first thing I want to say, yes, is can you just like fucking go Google Scholar yourself. This is not hard, Like I found myself sitting here trying to go. Okay, here was one of the meta analyses that was pulled from here and I'm like you know what? Fuck this. Okay, that's the first thing. The second thing I was thinking about is why is it that we're not in a spot to demand the research that shows that this actually works? Like nobody's sitting here going. Where's the research?
Speaker 1:that shows this does work? Where's the research that's not funded by big pharma that shows that this works?
Speaker 3:It's a given for the world a lot of the world now and for prescribers, okay that these do work. Like, how often do we go to a doctor and they say, listen, I'm really suggesting that you take this SNRI because of X, y and Z.
Speaker 3:How often is a patient or even if I, stuff that's put out there. There's not a lot of people challenging online people that put stuff out about how effective it is. They don't respond and go show me all the studies that show how well this does work. They don't because we took it face value. But when we whistleblowers put some shit out there that says guess what? Here's the mortality rate for giving tricyclics to the elderly population and how much it increases it right away, it's. Where's the research? Where's the research?
Speaker 1:I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you.
Speaker 3:It's this big flip. It's as if we stopped asking. We're asking for the research in the wrong spot, or we're asking for it on the back end when things don't work.
Speaker 1:I only want the research to affirm True, that's all I want. I want the research to affirm this. But I still go into this thing about the prescribers Because there's so many, somebody goes. Why do you call them prescribers? And I said well, because there's nurse practitioners can prescribe, pas can prescribe. Like I said, not just a psychiatrist prescribes this and they're not all MDs that prescribe this stuff.
Speaker 1:So, I said just call them prescribers. Call them prescribers. I was watching this TikTok this morning actually and it was about a I think it was a med school and there was a psychiatrist down there and he's like we're studying psychiatry because of the science and all this stuff and I believe in science-based medicine and blah, blah, blah, and I'm like then you shouldn't be prescribing. If you really believe in science-based medicine for the typical depressed or anxious person, you might want to actually look at the science, yeah, and I'm like that shit bothers me because I'm like if you actually did look at the science, you wouldn't be on TikTok saying that you believe in science-based medicine. And also, why is it that you can go on social media and profess your love for SSRIs, snris, stimulants, all these things like?
Speaker 4:that.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's glamorized. But you go on there and you say wait a minute, how about you look at this side and somehow you're a quack, somehow you shouldn't be talking about this because you're not an MD and I'm like well, what happened to all those prescribers that aren't MDs that are prescribing this shit? You know, you shouldn't be talking about this because you just have a PhD or you're just a therapist. You know you're not a real health professional, you know? And I'm like, damn, you guys don't get it, do you yeah?
Speaker 3:You're missing. You're missing like the whole that, and that goes back to agents, agency and getting curious Like you just take people, take what you say at face value, um, when there's so much more to it than that and research is fraught with bullshit, right? So I just keep. Not that I don't want to negate research, because we talk about it a lot on this show, but we also try to choose things that don't have a ton of conflicts of interest identified and if they do, we bring it up and we say they did mention in this study, for example, this article something that I think is a variable that they could have controlled for and assessed better was how people were going off of the medication.
Speaker 1:So how the titrate. Oh yeah, did they do it in a certain way?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes Was it abrupt, did you spend three to six months doing a hyperbolic taper, so it doesn't go into that. I think that that probably makes a difference.
Speaker 1:I think probably why they didn't was you're sick of fighting them every day, or they do the very fast every other day half of this and then every other day bullshit that happens and you're done in 30 days, right, so that?
Speaker 3:25% of people that couldn't get off, part of me I get curious about. I wonder why it is and if it would have been done differently for you. I wonder if those 25% of it would have been done differently for you. I wonder if that those 25% of people would have changed. I also wonder about the damage that's done to the brains and the bodies of the people and like what that will look like down the road. So there are variables, right that they couldn't account for or measure in here, but in my brain I kept thinking okay, that 25%. I wonder how those people went off.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so because there isn't a standard research yet about tapering, which is why it's so difficult. So when they say, go to your prescriber and they'll help you taper, it's like well, they're just kind of winging it. They're winging it too. They're winging it based on what they know because there's no standard research. And the reason there isn't standard research is because everybody is different, you know, so you account for differences. But I feel like most prescribers who are tapering clients are doing it all in the same way, right, they're doing it because that's what they've seen work in their office or whatever. Or it tapers off that med and we'll put you on another and then we're going to call that a success. I successfully tapered you off of psych med A and now you're on psych med B and we're calling this a success. You're still on a med. That's not a success, you're just on something else.
Speaker 1:But I'm so tired of the stupid word stigma now with mental health and it meaning only that you support medication use. I'm so tired of anything to the contrary. Is stigmatizing getting help? I'm like informed consent is a necessary thing, it's necessary. So I think you're stigmatizing mental health by gaslighting the shit out of people when it's not helping them or making them worse, or they can't get off of it. And you say well, that means because you need to be on it for the rest of your life. Well, maybe I need to be on it because it's fucked up my brain so bad that I can't get off of it.
Speaker 3:Yes, and that's part of this withdrawal piece, when people are trying to get off, and even this research they say right at the end, findings point to the exist of a genuine withdrawal syndrome that is associated specifically with antidepressants, which can cause very severe symptoms that can be long lasting and have this profound impact. And they go through all these big areas of people's lives that have been impacted just by trying to get off these meds, just by Between withdrawal and actually like relapse of an underlying condition. And that's, I think that's the piece that is helpful and we need more of that?
Speaker 1:Right, because the difference is is the relapse, is a set of whole different symptoms, right With that? Yeah, so when you're relapsing, did you relapse back to the symptoms that you had before or do you have something else? I think I remember you, jen, saying that you started because of depression on medication and you ended up with anxiety. Yes, so you didn't even, which is probably produced because of the medication, in my opinion, now when you think about it. But I remember you had that epiphany. You're like wait a minute, I started off with depression and now I have anxiety.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was super sad and down and depressed and now I got anxiety through the whole thing and now it's anxiety on crack. Yeah, now there's not enough L-theanine and GABA in my drawer to get me through a goddamn day right now.
Speaker 1:As she's withdrawing. She's going through a hyperbolic withdrawal.
Speaker 3:There's not enough magnesium baths, there's not enough sisters of sleep, there's not like all the things right, but I never had this in my life. So when you look at this withdrawal sheet for anybody who's curious about this it really simplistically separates symptoms prior and then symptoms once you start to titrate. Taper go off whatever it is, and it's kind of a slap in the face when you look at it and go I had none of these when I started my meds.
Speaker 1:I was just really sad, but nothing to see here, though. They're doing its job. Oh, that just means, jen, that the depression has resolved and now the anxiety can come through, right? Oh sure, I mean those are things that we've said Like oh that just means that the medication resolved, or resolved your anxiety and now the depression can come through. Like that's what that means. That is not what that means. That means that your neurochemistry has changed so much that now you reach symptomology for different diagnoses.
Speaker 3:Well, and speaking of the diagnoses, the thing that they talk about in this article, too, is that, like, regardless of diagnosis, these things are still happening. Right, these meds are an equal opportunity employer in that way is the way that I kind of view it when I was reading this. Regardless of diagnosis, whether you had major depression or you had bipolar disorder, regardless of the label, this is still happening to people. Okay, this is still happening to people, which means that we prescribed, in all different kinds of way, similar drugs that are in these antidepressant categories. When you really think about this, we label someone depression, we label somebody bipolar, we label somebody with anxiety, whatever it is, you're still going to come out on the back end. 80% of you, regardless of that label given to you, are going to come out on the back end of going through withdrawal when trying to get off of these drugs. So what's the science behind? Here's my diagnosis, here's my medication? There isn't. If we're all in the same damn spot.
Speaker 3:Yeah In the end, yeah In the end, we're all in the same spot, like and it's because there isn't the, there isn't a lot of good science, which is this is where I disagreed with our with her and RFK on this, because they talked about good science and prescribing. Well, they both agreed on that. I'm like I don't agree with that at all, because the good science as we know from many psychiatrists that are out there that are now in prescribers that are really honest and saying listen, it's like spinning a wheel and you pick a med Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep, and if that med made you worse or didn't help, then we'll just spin the wheel again and start with something else, or we'll add another on.
Speaker 3:You know Right, so there isn't a ton of science, because you would think that if there was, we all wouldn't end up in the same spot. Because we're being prescribed based off of a diagnosis which is to be formed in a very clinical fashion. Then the meds come with that science-based because of the clinical fashion, but yet we're all in the same spot.
Speaker 1:Right, we all end up in the same place anyway, so is the diagnosis even important.
Speaker 3:Does it even matter? Because?
Speaker 1:I would also argue that the majority of people who go to their doctor and they start complaining, you know, giving their list of symptomology, complaints or whatever, they don't meet diagnostic criteria for this, you know, because they only ask, like for me. The last time I went, I mean she asked if I had, you know, thought about ending my life and if I was sad, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like that I, you know, don't enjoy things that I used to enjoy, blah, blah, blah. That I would have been offered something, you know I would have been offered some type of medication. I would guarantee I wouldn't I know what to say, to be offered something or not, and I would probably even be offered it if I was thinking it didn't mean anything.
Speaker 1:Like you know what I mean. Like the way that they give it out to people to destigmatize mental health and to help people instead of just saying, hey, you know what is your diet like, what is your, are you getting any exercise in? Really, I mean, I know they ask about fruits and vegetables and how many servings and everybody lies on that shit, like you know. Like Food pyramid, right, or even if you drink alcohol, like you know I mean all this stuff.
Speaker 1:So there's so much to this and I think prescribers just need to take a step back and not be so willing to prescribe. Here's the deal. But the other piece of this is is all these mostly women running around going what? Do you want someone to end their life? These are life-saving meds. Not everybody is in that category.
Speaker 1:The majority of people who go in and get prescribed something is not because they are this close to taking their own life. That is not a thing. It's not and I'm so tired of that being the rationale for everybody to be on a psychiatric medication, especially when the research is clear that might actually make you want to take your life. Putting you on might end their life or you know, whatever all these things and you give them a medication that actually has a black box warning for doing that. You know, especially when in in research and everything they talk about, like, if you give them something you know, a side effect could be more of that thing, right, like anxiety, the side effect could be more anxiety, you know, uh, suicidality, the side effect could be more suicidality.
Speaker 1:Why would you give somebody who is already prone to that something that might actually cause more of that? You know, I don't understand. This is something that I just I don't get. And then I think about all these classrooms of kids who are on all these meds, who are aggressive and throwing chairs and doing all this stuff, but not a single person is saying maybe it's the medication, maybe the medication is causing this, so we'll take them off. Oh, that just got worse. It got worse right, because they're in withdrawal and they can't articulate that because they're children.
Speaker 3:And that's the life-changing kind of events that are being talked about in this study.
Speaker 1:Well, jen, they talk about and they're investigating adults in this study two to five years of withdrawal symptoms. Yes, so you take a child off medication that's been on them for several years. They could be withdrawing for two to five years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, whose internal system still is developing as well?
Speaker 1:Yes, but we're saying they need more medication or they need back on it because of the withdrawals. That are different. Now their behaviors are worse.
Speaker 3:The respondents described withdrawal as being life-changing. Verbatim comments were stated it ruined my life and it still is Permanently changed my life, made my life hell, created nine years in a hell with ups and downs, caused a total life breakdown. People described how their lives had to totally stop. They couldn't cope with normal daily responsibilities. There was a handful of people in this study that were completely bedridden and then another higher percentage that developed agoraphobia and social withdrawal. Some missed out on time with kids, had to give up their career, shut down their businesses, lost confidence self-esteem and were kind of socially isolated and reclusive. Versus lost confidence self-esteem and we're kind of socially isolated and reclusive. That paragraph I don't care how many people are in this study right?
Speaker 3:Even if only 50 of those 1,200 dealt with this. That to me is let's read this to people when we're doing informed consent with our patients. Here's what you need to know could happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:This is what withdrawal does.
Speaker 1:This video that we started with this Tina Smith and she's saying, well, it worked for me. Is what she's saying Well, it worked for me. Therefore, the alternative shouldn't even be discussed. And, like this guy or not, this is not what this is about. His statement was but there are people that it hurts. There are people and there's a lot of people that psychiatric medication has harmed a lot adults and children, and he's saying let's not forget about those people. We can't just say, well, it helped me, so shut the fuck up, like literally, that's what I hear over and over it helped me, so you are fear-mongering. Actually, it hurt me. Why can't I share my story that it hurt me? Why can't you share your story, jen, that it hurt you? These stories are just as real and they are just as important as someone who is banging the drum of it helped me and usually I go it helped you until it didn't.
Speaker 3:Yep, because you're destigmatizing it. Yes, that's why? That's why? Because, in a world where we need to be able to identify ourselves in a way that this is part of who we are, our identity is taking.
Speaker 1:Well, we've now weaponized the word stigmatized, and we have, and now it's in the words of Dr Yosef.
Speaker 3:What the fuck does that even mean? Yes, yes. When he came on the show I was like mean anything other than my truth in mental health.
Speaker 1:If I feel something has helped me, anything other than that is stigmatizing mental health care. And I'm like what's stigmatizing is believing that people don't have their own truth in mental health care. What's stigmatizing is the idea that there's not more than one way to do this medication. Like to me, that's stigmatizing. It's stigmatizing to think that people are just, you know, destined for doom and gloom. You know, if you ask what it means to work for doom and gloom, if you ask what it means to work, what does it mean to have a medication work? I don't even know. Because when your symptomology changes and suddenly now you've got anxiety, it worked for my depression, but man, do I have anxiety now? Did it really work then? Did it really help you?
Speaker 1:I think it's stigmatizing to not talk about all angles. Help you? You know, I think it's stigmatizing to not talk about all angles. You know all angles and this is why Jen and I are so passionate about this, because there's not a lot of people talking about the other side. You know, and they're in. Another side truly exists. It exists out there, it exists in both of us. Yeah, jen, more than me, because you know, my experience was different, but that doesn't mean that it's negated, right, you know. But also in the clients that we've seen over the years. Right, I mean, if I could roll back in time and, just you know, have different conversations, I would. But and it also exists in all of our comment sections on social media Because, again, like, just like this, you know, tina Smith, she wants to shut down any conversation that is against anything that she knows to be true herself or thinks is true.
Speaker 1:So, if she thinks it's true, then it must be researched. That is not true, because even when she brought up the I just want to make this point again like the school shooting, she was trying to pinpoint it down to school shooting. But aggression is a thing, homicidality is a thing, suicidality is a thing, yes, when it comes to these medications, like you know to say, well, we can't draw that conclusion, because I'm like, what did she say? Even the ones that were on SSRIs, they couldn't draw that conclusion. I'm like, really, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you take somebody who is if somebody was on.
Speaker 1:I'm not even talking about school, she doesn't talk about mass shootings, whatever was on. And then they were off and they're in withdrawal Yep For five years.
Speaker 3:That's exactly what I was thinking. Yep, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. So how many and I don't think this correlation in research can can cleanly be drawn which? Is why I think it's kind of funny that she said that? Because she's trying yeah, she's trying to say that we can draw a direct line between these mass shootings that have happened and antidepressants and say right.
Speaker 3:And it's not. It's not that easy, and in fact I would. I would even argue um that there's probably even a higher correlation of people withdrawing from taking these along the way. I've wondered this In this state of akathisia, the shit that you are willing to do. Let me tell you guys, it's not a good space and you will give anything to make it go away.
Speaker 1:I could only imagine that actually being the culprit, maybe not only being on the medication but maybe possibly coming off of it or withdrawing from it For years and it can go on for years Abruptly stopping it which is a very hard correlation to draw to determine whether or not somebody was in that space and stopped their meds, and then this happened a week later, you know or a year later, right.
Speaker 3:So I think the notion to say that we can draw this straight line, I think in any kind of research that means there's no confounding variables anywhere, ever. So it's a very naive statement and it's very tactfully placed for people that don't think about it in this way. It's a very emotional statement and you draw right into it then and think that that guy is nuts for even saying that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know, I don't think he is. It's those things that make you go, hmm, you know, and yeah, so that was very powerful, so I'm grateful to have watched that little clip.
Speaker 3:Yes, Thank you, that functional nurse, for kicking that Terry's way.
Speaker 1:Yes, because I literally have been off of social media and trying not to pay attention to the political BS shit that's going on right now, because it's just too much for me in this point right now. This one made a lot of sense to me and I felt compelled to talk about it, so hopefully you guys enjoyed this episode too. We were pretty impassioned at least I was because I'm like damn, this stuff is so important to talk about. Jen and I will continue to talk about the other side of things and offer you some other alternatives in your life. So please keep listening. If you like us, give us only five-star ratings, because if you don't just move on right, five-star ratings only. Like, comment, share, subscribe. Let people know that you love the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Send us your gaslit truth at thegaslittruthpodcast at gmailcom. That's a wrap.
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