Has Your Dignity Been Stripped By a Mental Health Diagnosis with Zelda Menard, Therapist and Survivor of the Psychiatric Care System

Zelda Menard's story is one of transformation and empowerment, shaped by her journey from being diagnosed with bipolar disorder to becoming a mental health counselor. Her candid experience with the psychiatric treatment system shines a light on the critical need for dignity and humanity in mental health care. Zelda discusses her personal journey, which includes facing the challenges of hospitalization and the impact of mental health labels. Her narrative isn't just a personal reflection; it ignites a broader conversation about systemic changes needed in mental health treatment.

We also explore a deeply personal journey through mental health challenges, offering insight into the intricate balance of marriage, motherhood, and the acceptance of medication as a necessity. These stories encourage listeners to reflect on their own life experiences, drawing attention to the profound influence of early childhood patterns on adult mental health and relationships. By recognizing these patterns, individuals can take steps toward healing, underscoring the importance of self-awareness and early intervention in transforming one's mental health outlook.

The episode rounds off with a critical examination of mental health labels and stigma. We question the validity of traditional diagnostic criteria and stress the importance of understanding personal triggers in context. Zelda's insights into these complex issues offer hope and encouragement for those navigating similar challenges, urging listeners to reconsider the narratives surrounding mental health. As we conclude, we invite you to share your own experiences, fostering a community of support and understanding.

The Gaslit Truth Podcast will be live and in person at the Feed the Recovering Brain Conference in Dublin, Ohio

Join us with the top names in brain health, including Christina Veselak, Hyla Cass, and Julia Ross, author of The Mood Cure.

We’ll be bringing you interviews and behind-the-scenes content as we explore how nutrition transforms mental wellness.

Chapters

• 0:22 Mental Health Therapist's Journey to Empowerment
• 8:43 Mother's Journey Through Mental Health
• 21:40 Navigating Relationships and Mental Health
• 31:32 Empowering Students in the Classroom
• 37:47 Navigating Mental Health Labels and Stigma
• 51:30 Sharing Personal Story of Inspiration

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Has your dignity been stripped from your mental health diagnosis? We are your whistleblowing shrinks, Dr Teralyn and therapist Jen, and you are listening to the Gaslit Truth podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Yes, you are. And boy, do we have a guest for you today?

Speaker 1: 0:38

Yeah, we do, we've got a consumer story that you're going to want to stay on for the ride and listen to. Very powerful.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Yes, because not just a consumer, but a fellow mental health therapist. Yes, that makes it even more.

Speaker 1: 0:50

It's like us. Yes, it's both.

Speaker 2: 0:53

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 0:53

Just like us, which is cool. We got a little community happening here, so it feels damn good.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Yes, all right, we're going to bring her on the show. Zelda Menard, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: 1:06

Thank you, nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Absolutely All right. Zelda Menard is a mental health counselor who comes to the profession via her own journey as a survivor of the psychiatric treatment system. That is so juicy and interesting to me. Before becoming a therapist, zelda worked as an educator with elementary, middle and high school students. She became a therapist to gain standing in the mental health field and subvert the mental health paradigm after being diagnosed and treated for bipolar disorder in 2005. As a therapist, teacher, parent and human, she aims to bring dignity and humanity to every interaction she has with others. Please welcome Zelda to the show.

Speaker 1: 1:51

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I'm so excited to have you because normally or typically, we have therapists or we know therapists to be, like they come into the field because of their own mental health diagnosis, but not for this reason, right, like you came in to kind of change things in the mental health field rather than just perpetuate more of the same, and I think that's the important conversation here today. If I got that right, if I got that part of your story, right? Yes, yeah definitely yes.

Speaker 2: 2:31

So I would like for you to just start by sharing what you're comfortable with of your story where it began and how you got to this place of being a therapist. So it's your show and let's go.

Speaker 3: 2:38

Okay, I'll do my best to not make it too long and intricate. Um, I went to school and got out of school and ended up becoming a teacher 25 years ago and enjoyed, worked at element and ended as an elementary school teacher um late 20s, used the internet back then and found a relationship and ended up moving across the country pretty fast. Just two weeks after we met he knew he got a job in Microsoft in Seattle. So we moved across the country and got married the next, engaged that summer, married the next summer and then and got a bipolar diagnosis right after that. It's pretty random, but Well, no, I want to say how did you get?

Speaker 2: 3:27

like it's like you got a diagnosis. Like how did you get the diagnosis? It didn't suddenly come to your door and knock on it. Yes, what was that?

Speaker 3: 3:38

So in the process of moving across the country, away from my family, getting married pretty fast, a lot of changes. There's lists of top 100 life changes that are big stressors, if you've seen that, as professionals in the world. So several different things happening. I can sprinkle in that I met my biological father that I didn't know was the person who was my father, also in this little span of about a year, and so I came back after getting married and ended up manic the terms we'd use and was brought to the hospital and labeled and diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And so I was newlywed a few months after the wedding. Told you know, yeah, so was in the hospital. Told I was had bipolar disorder and would need meds for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1: 4:33

Okay.

Speaker 3: 4:34

So that was the start. They didn't hear, they didn't need to hear any of the background, the backstory of that whole summer, and that was just like. We know who you are. You have bipolar disorder. You're going to need beds for the rest of your life, cause they drew me a little picture of waves that go up and down and you don't want to go too high and too low, so you need to stay in this path.

Speaker 1: 4:53

So technical huh.

Speaker 2: 4:56

Yes, I love it.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Zelda, can you share with our listeners what you experienced when they, when you went in, when you were taken inpatient, what was happening?

Speaker 3: 5:08

Sure, um, so let's see. Um, so I was. I walked myself. So my, we were. It was chaos in my, my newlywed home. My husband and I, we were like something's not right. Chaos in my newlywed home. My husband and I, we were like something's not right. I'm trying to fix things. And anyway, he calls the ambulance, I walk myself down. The EMT goes in the closet to get my shoes. I choose which books to get. I'm calm. If you want to think about like that, Walk myself into the ambulance. I'm taken, but it's involuntary Nevertheless. Um, I'm brought to the, uh, I'm brought to an entry whatever, to intake area. There's little rooms. I'm very confused about why I'm there.

Speaker 1: 5:56

I'm not so you're walking, you're calmly, you, you get you, you get yourself there.

Speaker 3: 6:01

I mean you're not, I was restrained, I was put into the, I walked in the ambulance and then, um, when I got to Harborview, um, I was wheeled in and I heard the nurses say, oh, another 30 year old, who's gone crazy, who's has, who's manic. So I remember that. Um, and then I was put in a room and going to be. I was walking around. At first there was like a waiting area, but I think when wanting to drug me or I ended up being restrained, having like five guys trying to restrain me and being not knowing what's going on, maybe ripping some uniform to some degree as they're restraining me. Yeah, I believe I moved the bed with my restrained self to get to see the window. It was so intensely scary and yeah, very scary.

Speaker 2: 6:57

Do you know why? You were restrained at this point, like, do you understand? Or what you were told? Do you remember what you did? And I want to back this up for a minute because I can tell that this conversation is hard for you to have yes, so you can say what you want. You can take a break, you can say I'm not talking about that. I want this to be your call here. So I don't want to re-traumatize you in any way as we're talking here. So I don't want to re-traumatize you in any way as we're talking. So if I ask a question that you're just not comfortable with, please say let's move forward.

Speaker 3: 7:32

No, I want to be open as a book as I can, because I don't want anyone else to experience this or think going to the hospital is the right thing to do, because if your family can't handle you, how do you think strangers are going to treat you?

Speaker 2: 7:45

is what I say. That's a profound statement right there. Yeah, yeah, if they care, then yeah. Absolutely Okay. So do you remember why you were restrained or why you were told you were restrained? Because with your story it doesn't feel like you would need to be restrained. You seemed compliant to use some of these words. Right, like you seemed pretty compliant.

Speaker 3: 8:10

Well, I mean, I'm sure they're telling me I need drugs and I need to calm down or I don't. I was. I wasn't behaving in the way they wanted me to.

Speaker 1: 8:21

Which would make sense, right, because this whole thing I mean I was very I didn't know.

Speaker 3: 8:27

I thought, yeah, we had, there's a, there's all kinds of parts. I mean I saw I can go into the story of what I saw I was trying to fix in my new husband's relationship with his all kinds of things, and but they're fixing me, I think I'm trying to help him. He's's helped. Anyway, they didn't. I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do, so I was restrained, I was drugged. I ended up being put in a higher space that had windows everywhere so they could fully see me, and I'm ready to go back and I would love to tour and see what that space was like. Based on my memory from 20 years ago, yeah, so, um, eventually I was calmed down enough with drugs for a few days and was brought up to the you know the upstairs psych wards of beautiful, overlooking puget sound and I mean I um, just and slowly figured out what I had to do to behave and move through the parts to get out. So that was 10 days and, yeah, so I got out, had drugs to take. Instead, I know who I am, I'm a strong, independent young woman and I don't need these drugs and got myself off of them, said I know who I am, I'm a strong, independent young woman and I don't need these drugs, and got myself off of them. And, um, and then two years later we were having, we had, I got pregnant and was having a child in 2000 and, uh, seven had, child 2008. He's one year old. My um husband and I definitely did not agreeing on how to raise this young being and there was tension and I drove myself crazy again trying to figure out how to handle a husband and a new baby. And I remember walking, taking my son across to a neighbor with him, taking him to a neighbor's, and my husband called 911 and the fire department showed up and I told my friend you know, take my son, I don't want him to feel this energy and stuff. And I was telling them that I was in an emotionally abusive relationship. And there definitely was emotional abuse, but I was the crazy one, so it didn't, they were gonna treat me.

Speaker 3: 10:48

So I walked into the ambulance again, um, that time I went to the place I had birthed my son, started at home but ended up at um UW Medical Center. So I was in a, I was in the hallway and like we'll take the drunk guy out of that room. So they put me in that room, um, and before they made a law that you couldn't be in a ER room for days. But I was in a, in a room held they don't have. They didn't have a special psych area at UW, then building one, now, um, so I was in a room pumping, menstruating and in my head thinking they don't know I'm a woman, they don't know what species I am. They're going to now is going to be outside protesting that this is a woman and you need to let her out. My husband was like you had our son upstairs, like oh, that's not reassuring, this is not how I want to be treated. So, but I was trying to fix things. I see all our lists of diagnoses or symptoms as unhealthy ways of handling, figuring, trying to fix things, coping mechanisms. So my figuring things out was getting manic to solve problems and fix things and get my chaotic relationship. Anyway, I I was in the room for several days before I was moved to Fairfax probably the nicest choice Went to Fairfax in Kirkland, wrapped up. That was probably another 10, 12 days or so, and then came home and wanted to continue.

Speaker 3: 12:37

I loved being pregnant. I loved being a mother. It wasn't the child issue, it was the husband and wife that were not seeing eye to eye. And you know how I so and the wild part of you know, my husband would have to, in the first one, go to, you know, mental health court and he dressed all nicely in a suit and I'm like had been on a ward and I'm like, yes, this is great, you can be stoic and the, you know, somber, quiet, not crazy for sure, man, um and testify that she's messed up and needs to be in there longer or whatever, and um, anyway. So the second time, the thing is like I'd come home and get back into taking care of our child and I wouldn't like stay home to take you know like I'm fine, I would just get back. The drugs would bring me back down.

Speaker 3: 13:29

I ended up, you know, seeing a psychiatrist for a little while, but again getting off the drugs and saying that's not me, they don't know who I am. That was 2008. It's not me, they don't know who I am. That was 2008. And then, in 2009, last and final episode ended up. We were kind of talking about divorce at that time but ended up becoming manic trying to remember how did I get there in 2009.

Speaker 3: 14:02

Oh yeah, we were going to a couples counselor and I was again winding up, wound up too much. They said go to Overlake Hospital, which was in the east side of Washington area, seattle area. Went there, ended up yes, she's manic again. I remember being taken in the back and I was looking at a staff sign. I was like just act like the staff, just see if you can behave the right way. So they will just like not do this to you again. Anyway, that time I went from there to Navos worst place I would say if I were to rank them all Been to most of them like nope, they didn't take me to the VA because I'm not a veteran but can write some Zagat reviews of those places. Definitely, laughter is the best medicine. Anyway, I was at.

Speaker 3: 14:49

Navos for a little bit more time and had my journey of chaos and got out, and then that's when that was 2009,. I was like, okay, I'll take the meds, I seem to need them. My husband was already. It was process of filing for divorce. We did take me to Hawaii anyway just to check and see, but he was already filing papers to getting everything in order and getting police reports. Uh, figured out and um.

Speaker 3: 15:16

Oh, he was building a case uh, figured out and, um, oh, he was building a case. Yes, building quite a case. Um, so, on May 26th, 20, I don't even know anymore Um, 20, seven, nine, 20, 2009. Yes, um, he had said I'll bring our son to my mother's for the day and you can have a day off. I didn't ask for that. I love being a mother. I love being a stay-at-home mom, and I had gone to an afternoon Zumba class and came home. I was showering and came home and then got a knock on the door and was served with a restraining order for my son and divorce papers, and so from that moment on he was two years old at the time he never returned to my full-time care and that was definitely the hardest night of my life. I was in contact with a psychiatrist who gave me clonazepam and I tried to. I didn't sleep much at all. I was um, yeah, that was yeah. So that's the general story of my crazy.

Speaker 3: 16:32

I then, you know, separated from my husband. He had, he also began moving things out and I proceeded to go get a job in teaching and education. So I dusted myself off to make money again, because I knew how to do that and work with kids. So I got back and I think I began working in a Muslim school so hijab didn't covered and worked teaching third through sixth grade, social studies and English. Not too many kids in four grades and two subjects, which sounds like a lot. Oh, maybe for a person with bipolar that might be a lot, but somehow I figured it out. Anyway, I then figured out what was going on. What was I? How was I driving myself crazy? And I need to get. I need to fix this because I only a family for my son, otherwise I could definitely just descend into drugs.

Speaker 3: 17:31

Alcohol slowly proceeded to find a psychiatrist who was a naturopathic doctor as well, and I listened to her. I followed her directions. I had a case manager. I had supervised visits to start, but with her mostly following her directions until about 2015 when I was a little ahead of her curve and said, nope, I'm done with the drugs and I had gotten off. I was on G-adone, she was risperidone syrup. Well, the last one was lithium and then she's like just take over the counter, I do too. I'm like that's great, but you decided to. I don't want to. So 2015 was the last drugs put in me and I went through the parenting plan of. I could only have up to 10 visits a month with my son because I was deemed psychologically and emotionally impaired long-term psychological and emotional impairment as I teach children for a living.

Speaker 2: 18:39

This is what I want to say. You did in her bio that she sent over. She wrote how the family court system deemed it fine to not let me have my son, but yet I was fully capable of teaching. Classrooms full of other people's children is beyond me and I'm like that is gaslighting 101, like seriously I, your story is like riveting, emotional, and it just makes me wonder how many people go through this. So a lot, I would imagine, and we're probably going to get a little feedback on this, because there's the bipolar community that you know is very much med, med, med, that's you need med, you know.

Speaker 2: 19:26

So we're probably going to get a little pushback on this episode, I would think. But the one thing that strikes me in your recounting of the story is how many times you had to figure out what the rules of the game were, the rules of like. If I only act this way, like, I can survey and see what I'm supposed to say, what I'm supposed to do to get out of here. That's what I'm going to do, and I have heard that multiple times with clients. Jen and I both worked in the prison systems. You know, when they go into restraints, they have to say and do certain things to get let out, and they all know what to say and do.

Speaker 2: 20:13

It was the same thing for you. You had to figure out how to comply, how to be the perfect patient and say and do all the right things in order to live your life again. Meanwhile, on the side, here was a case being built against you. Though you were compliant, doing all the right things, you could never get out of the space of being a patient, a very sick patient, if you will. And it's interesting also to me and this is what you were saying earlier is, you know, the environment that you were in was the precipitator of a lot of this manic behavior, as you called it. Did you have that type of behavior? Did you have those manic episodes after you were not with your husband anymore, did you? Did you? You said 2015 was your last time you ever had a medication in you, but even prior to that, so yeah, three hospitalizations, Um, and then for whatever this crazy story is worth, um it's worth a lot.

Speaker 2: 21:30

Thank you for sharing it. Yeah, Thank you Um.

Speaker 3: 21:33

I'll add just another spice to it. Um, like I, you asked if I had another episode. I would say that I had more, or I was able to work through it myself, as I happened to wildly find myself attracted to a woman after maybe such a chaotic relationship with a man and ended up in a relationship with, I see, our universal you know childhood wounds you're trying to heal as you find a relationship. So she was amazingly able to hear and see my story and the intense messed upness of it. But she also had a stonewalling kind of I shut down when you want to keep talking and fix it, which is my bad.

Speaker 3: 22:21

My husband shut down, I go crazy trying to get him to fix the problem. That was like kind of it in a nutshell. So I had to learn that I can't control other people and so I was able to figure out how to handle that in my last relationship that I had and feel safe and I can go back to childhood and abandonment and being locked in a room while my mother mowed the lawn so she didn't have to hear me temper tantrum and yeah, she was a nice 1970s mom, single mom, so I can go back and see the pieces that oh abandonment, oh abandonment, oh abandonment. But you're okay, so I figured that out.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Abandonment behavior. So you said, like your mom would mow the lawn right and while you were tantruming inside, while you were a child, tantrum and an adult looks like mania right.

Speaker 3: 23:22

Sure, I mean, I'm saying like point I, kind of connecting, that I have these stories of being not heard when, I was a kid and and young and locked in a room and she's going to mow the lawn outside so she doesn't have to deal with me and other stories and just, and then that kind of was recreated in a husband who it. I want you closer to me, I don't want you to shut down.

Speaker 1: 24:03

Yes, let's figure it out together. And so when you couldn't do that, that started to psychologically manifest itself and spin and spin and spin. So you'd spend a lot of time in that space, which would then lead to some of the bigger struggles that you were having. So that mania part I guess I think that we're talking about is there is not this biologic component that is happening that you have for forever. This is a forever it's more about. There are these not only environmental stressors, but also how I'm handling what's happening to me. That led you to some of those spaces, right, which negates the idea of this being a genetic, biological issue that you have forever, which you were labeled with right. So you found a way to manage that.

Speaker 3: 24:54

Yes, yes, yep, yep. So in that, in my last large relationship that lasts about six, seven years, yeah, I had spaces and I had some sleeplessness of like this isn't safe, she doesn't understand me, I need to get out. And I had to work through them and figure out how to relearn, how to rest in peace each night and how to be calm and how to handle other people doing things that trigger worries and fears. And, yeah, so, whether I had a an episode, you know, I the the Star Wars episode four is a new hope, so like one, two, three, all I think they all have negative names and then four is a new hope. So, except I think I call my episode four is when I went to a. I went to a.

Speaker 3: 25:45

I gave myself a writing memoir workshop with Rebecca Walker it was like five of us in Palm Springs, and I wrote, have written 40,000 words.

Speaker 3: 25:50

My amazing ex-girlfriend gave me a year off, a gap year at 43, where I wrote and haven't published and it's not there yet.

Speaker 3: 25:59

But I do hope to tell the story in some format, but I did figure out how to, because actually, yeah, so that when I was in Palm Springs, I really felt held by these amazing group of five women and one of them happened to be my Madeline, from Sweden. My mother's name is Madeline and this Madeline was. She's a mother of like six and she's just this uber like what a mom should be, or the caring part, right and and she saw me and heard me and we were equals. But it was just I could just go through this process as I wrote and cried and read things that everything was connected and was there with amazing Rebecca Walker, was there with amazing Rebecca Walker and that was what I would call my like episode for a new hope and kind of just I was able to let go of resentment toward my ex-husband and say that's what he felt he had to do, he was scared. He has his own story, yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:49

I just keep wondering if more people could connect these, this type of dots, right in their life, how outcomes would change so dramatically for them. It's just like this deep understanding of self and the recreation of trauma over and over again, like reenactment of trauma repeatedly and understanding, like, where to put that stop gap in. You know, like yeah, yeah. So, as you were talking, I was just like all the people that I know who've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder because of their behaviors or whatever. If they would just take a moment to realize that it wasn't just a People talk about things like this like it just came on. It just came on suddenly and this is what happened. I'm like nothing ever comes on suddenly or subtly. I mean, things do come on subtly. We need to recognize those subtle things.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Well, jen, we've heard about this in the podcast feather, brick and semi-truck is what somebody had said. That's not just for physical stuff, that's also for mental health things. Something comes on like a feather and then a brick and then a semi truck, and the semi truck is where the interventions happen. What if they happened at feather? You know what if you could understand where they were at when they're a feather, you know, like a little knock on your door, a little whisper in your ear a little. You know what's going on in your world right now. What's, what are the stressors you're experiencing? You know, and not be afraid of that, because I feel like there's a lot of people that are fear. Well, it's just stress and I don't know what to do with stress. But you said that you were able to find the stressors and then really, for lack of better terms challenge yourself on what you were thinking and believing and doing in those moments. And believing and doing in those moments and that's powerful stuff in the mental health world that is not reliant on medication?

Speaker 3: 29:53

Definitely. Yeah, I had a list of like. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you making rash decisions? I'm like I turned into the. I turned into the mall and there's a semi turning the other way. I'm like that's a little snug. Was that a bad? Are you getting bipolar? Are you getting manic?

Speaker 2: 30:07

when you did that, I'm like slow down, yeah, challenging, challenging all the decisions that you're making, questioning of self, not in a in a negative downward spiral way, but in a in a very helpful way. And so you talked in your email that you sent us about working with some students who are in the special education world, and there was one in particular that you talked about. I hope you can remember the story because I'd like for you to summarize this and what it meant to you moving forward, okay.

Speaker 3: 30:42

Yeah, that was like the straw that broke the camel's back. I kind of would like to just be happy in the education, would have been just a teacher in the education world and um, but um, so a student was put in my classroom. I met him the day before school started and he just him and I and the principal. He was coming from another district and has her needs, was living at a shelter, and, and he was nice enough and, but when he came to my classroom, he ended up being placed in my classroom. That wasn't and, and he him plus 26 other kids was like just, he was just roaming around, playing with the things on the board, just doing all kinds of things. That doesn't help a classroom function cohesively, because you're like, who do I pay attention to? And so that was noted. I didn't get what I was supposed to his behavior improvement plan and his IEP Didn't have that in advance of him starting the year with me to have everything in place, but did get it installed that he had lots and lots of needs. And I'd like to say, even with like very little sleep, that 2018 school year like just from maybe anticipation and who knows what, he came the first day and could remain calm and had boundaries and just talking to him as a not equal, but just respectfully. But I did, you know, call in special ed I'm not a special ed teacher and they saw quickly that he needs a lot more support and so they began making, you know, like him to go out and help kindergarten and do this and like if you behave you can have screen time or you know the carrot and the external extrinsic rewards. He was still coming to me, he was coming to my classroom and this is um and making and getting. We're doing beginning of the year, things like so maybe a stem, you know activity of built cup, you know cup towers and he's getting to know the other kids, the kids are getting to know him. He's definitely has intense behaviors, maybe like a scream out here or there, but we're building a community with and helpfully with the you know the start of the school year things that I put in place to build this community and he was being built into it and his peers were also seeing what he needed and there for him and it was beautiful.

Speaker 3: 33:08

You know that first day I had a circle where the kids would sit down and talk about whatever we were doing. I was like, oh, they say to put water. So water in a cup. He's throwing like something in the cup. He's doing all kinds of things that are not what I had in mind for the cup with the water in this peaceful circle. That was day one, and then by day 10, yeah, like a week and a half into school or so, he's able to sit in the circle and he's understanding the assignment, so to speak. He's doing it, he's joining, but he's already been put on the radar that he's chaotic, he's a mess, and he's outside the classroom without me. He's like maybe ripping down the bulletin board paper and he's like, yeah, this kid's a mess.

Speaker 3: 33:53

So I know at one point the assistant principal had come into the meeting and he was like I heard and I'm sitting on a chair and the kids are on the rug talking and it's like start of the morning, start of the day, or maybe you're reading a story. It's fifth grade, it might sound like it's younger, but they're still little and they still like stories and we're kind of setting the behavior of what we expect. And I hear him say, you know, like, get away from me, she's not doing anything, but he doesn't want her. He doesn't need her help of like. You know we have agency and empowered, we're empowered agent. You know we want agency and to be empowered and independent. He was doing it but they already had kind of the grips they were going to get a. They got a behavior person to start tailing him. Basically.

Speaker 1: 34:38

Sure, and he didn't like that.

Speaker 3: 34:39

No, he, like ran, came into my room and like she didn't know where he went because he was all over the place and and I'm like I'm just teaching the class but he just lost her. Anyway, too long story short. They decide he shouldn't come to your classroom the one morning and they have him stay in the office, the office. So I just okay, that's, that's what it is. I went down to the office at lunchtime. I I got an email in the morning that said the office is closed. Go to the music room if you need to call anyone. And then I came down to the office for lunch.

Speaker 3: 35:13

The staff room, cafeteria staff room is in the back of the, the end of the office. I go in and the office is everything that might be on an office. You know the counters, everything's cleared off, there's a chair pushed against one door, all the shades are down. It looks like they're in lockdown. The whole school didn't do anything except get the message from them about. The music room is where you should contact people.

Speaker 3: 35:38

And then I walked down to the staff room and this young man comes, sees me from a conference room. He's in and comes out and he says teacher, teacher, where's, where's the class Can I come with you? And he's in there with, I think, two instructional assistants that are trying to get him to play heads up or just to entertain him, and I said that it doesn't feel empowering, but you need to stay in here with these people with you need to stay in here with these people. You need to stay here, not these people.

Speaker 3: 36:09

And then I went to eat lunch and then after that he escaped them and tried to go back up into the classroom and I was put on administrative leave and told I was insubordinate for saying that I was. That he was might feel disempowered and it really triggered feelings of me being locked up as I. As I realized this, I tweeted this is not what justice looks like, as the as the school district is beautiful, gorgeous school district that has probably several million dollar homes and very fancy, and, but in the end, we do what we do to put people in place when they don't do exactly what we want, and it really reminded me of my own experiences in the mental wards, um yeah we did in the night to the to the school, maybe the superintendent that that got me on their radar and, um, even my assistant principal said I believe you, I agree with you in theory, but we can't do it this way and you need to go.

Speaker 3: 37:10

So I was put on leave for a few months. They wanted to just pay me to not work for the rest of the year. But I went back and finished the year and then took that year off and then ended up substitute teaching in another district and doing long-term, as I then went back to school for a mental health counseling degree.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Which is a funny thing to me. The irony of that is hilarious, Because I was thinking about that little kid and I'm like, yeah, you're totally, you totally saw yourself in him and what he needed was a sense of community where he thrived. And that's exactly what you were trying to do for yourself is creating your own community in the wrong places, right? So, because the whole story like how stressful to have a child in your classroom that's doing all those things and you're trying to manage the other 26 kids and whatever a child in your classroom that's doing all those things and you're trying to manage the other 26 kids and whatever and I'm like all these huge stressors in your life, but yet you didn't become manic Fascinating to me, right.

Speaker 2: 39:15

Because if it were just a stress and pressure of any sort that causes people to go into states of mania, that would have done it right, but it was very specific things. And so this is kind of a call out to anybody who has or has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder to really consider what are those specific stressors that might cause you to have certain behaviors or reactive trauma or whatever we want to call it, Because this to me. And then you go back to school and it still didn't happen. Again Like these are huge, massive pressures.

Speaker 3: 39:53

Yeah, I mean I definitely was energized and like, but I didn't, didn't become manic, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:02

Over the board and there there are times in many people's lives that they can get that energized. You know if you want to call it mania or whatever things.

Speaker 1: 40:13

Right, that's what I was just thinking. Like Zelda, this the word. You've used the word mania a lot. Ok, what is that? What? What is that label even mean?

Speaker 3: 40:25

Well, I can definitely tick the boxes of the DSM for not sleeping grandiose ideas. I did.

Speaker 2: 40:30

You know how many things I can check the boxes for myself, Like come on.

Speaker 1: 40:36

A lot.

Speaker 3: 40:36

It was definitely I won't. I don't want to deny that I was manic, I was. You know, I had, I had classic manic um in my three times and and don't want to deny that because, yeah, I want to be totally honest and upfront Um yeah, if it's a function of trauma, is it?

Speaker 1: 41:01

is it? Is it classic mania from bipolar?

Speaker 3: 41:05

Well right, All those labels are problematic.

Speaker 1: 41:07

Yeah, like that's where I'm going with this, right, because I just keep digging down that. Like, okay, if we're really looking at the function of where things can come from for us, right, can we label somebody with that? Talk about stripping dignity away, ripping dignity away, when you are labeled as part of a diagnosis. That from the jump. By the way, the very first visit you had in that hospital, no one asked you why, no one asked you what was going on in your home. You were labeled, what did you say? A scorned woman.

Speaker 3: 41:44

Oh yeah, that was a psychiatrist.

Speaker 1: 41:47

Yes, but that's yeah, like a scorned woman, right. And so I'm thinking about this label that we put on people. Had you had someone sat down with you at that first, um, that first inpatient visit, and went you know, it's kind of interesting how the police are called. You're compliant, you go get your books, you get the things you need, you walk yourself to the ambulance. You get in the ambulance, right.

Speaker 1: 42:19

How is it right that you're sitting in front of me and we're trying to, you know, medicate and restrain you right now, when this is what happened? What was going on in that home? What was going on with the only other person in that home with you? What was going on with that person that called 911, that got that ambulance there? Those questions, right, the ones that I think matter and that would have unfolded such a story. Right, zelda, about the triggers, the stressors. Is this a bipolar? Is she manic? But is it happening within the context of abuse? Yeah, to me those treatment plans look very different. Those stories are different. The labels we would give someone mental health wise are different, and it's not like this was a hundred years ago. This is 20, 25 years ago, right, like we're not talking about the early 1900s here. I mean, this was not that long ago, 25 years, 15 years, right, right.

Speaker 2: 43:20

This was not that long ago.

Speaker 1: 43:22

So to to approach that, to approach something in that way, I just can't. I can't wrap my brain around it. Yeah, let alone I can only imagine being through that right, going through that right. But and I that's why I asked you about what mania is for you, how you define that, what that means for you. Because then I questioned yes, you tick all those boxes, but if we would have went in a deeper dive if those providers would have spent 15 minutes asking you about your home life, what events all happened in the last 365 days in your life? That story matters, right? Yeah?

Speaker 3: 43:58

There's also a woman, a female male story I happened to in that same few years at this one school with that young man as well, met another woman whose husband had the same attorneys as mine and was trying to be painted as mentally ill to get the kids and maybe not pay support. So men very often can be quiet and stoic and presenting as calm and and women drive them.

Speaker 1: 44:30

you know, women are loud or women often go loud and emotional and yeah, sure, we like to over talk, we like to over over explain. We want to tell the story. We want, yeah, people to hear.

Speaker 3: 44:41

Yeah because we're not. You know, we might be dismissed, and so that is part of that.

Speaker 2: 44:51

The interesting part, and it's not just men who do this to women. I want to make sure the listeners know this, because I know plenty of women that have weaponized mental health against their husbands as well in court, weaponized mental health against their husbands as well in court, and especially again, it's usually a similar situation as far as protecting the kids or thinking that you're protecting the kids, or just because you don't want the other person to have access to them. We will weaponize mental health or even addiction stuff or what we perceive to be addiction stuff. I am tired of attorneys doing that. I am tired you want to talk about stigmatizing mental health. Let's keep it out of the courts. Let's stop using the DSM as weapons to keep someone from their children or to gain something within the context of a divorce, or to just punish somebody. You know Like the punishment.

Speaker 2: 45:52

I feel like the DSM has been weaponized, which is another reason why I hate it, because it what I hate about it also is that it is in the hands of the general public now. It didn't used to be Like when early on you know in my training and stuff you couldn't buy the DSM on Amazon. You know the way you can now, and so people use it now in a way that is usually nonproductive and often used as a weapon towards someone else, whether that's your husband or your wife or your child, you know. Um, it gets weaponized in certain ways. Um, yeah, so so the interesting part to me is that then you became a therapist, right so, which is always fascinating, because a lot of people become therapists because they want to, um, they've had a good experience, often with therapy or whatever, and so they're like you know, I want to make sure that other people do this, not too many people become therapists because they've had a bad experience and they want to change the narrative.

Speaker 1: 46:59

And they've worked through it and they understand the whole thing too right. Like that's the neat piece of this. Is there anything that you want to share on that, Zelda? I know we only have a couple minutes left here, but in many ways.

Speaker 3: 47:29

but you know, with the diagnosis that I got as well, and supporting them and seeing a new way, I'm not like whether I end up or move into whether I wasn't quite ready to go back into locked patient wards yet and even when I did my internship I was. I'm very careful and I didn't want to use the DSM to diagnose. But I am working, you know, contracted with the place and healthcare, and I'm using it. That took a journey to get there, yeah, but I'm very careful with the labels throw around.

Speaker 2: 47:59

Yeah, how has your experience informed your practice, particularly with those who have bipolar disorder?

Speaker 3: 48:15

I look at, we talk about their story. I mean I yeah, client wise, I mean just helping them to see that I like, I'm not afraid of it to to go there and to really see what was going on when that happened and begin to help them open their eyes from maybe what they've been told already. Like to like tell those stories that like what was connecting, because we are trying to fix something and what's happening it's meaning making. We are trying to make meaning in the chaos, in the crazy. So it all has meaning. So don't like if no one's asked you about it, it matters. So that, I think, is helping to the few clients so far that I've gotten to work with.

Speaker 1: 48:51

Talk about interagency within meaning. Right, when you can find meaning within the events that have happened in your life, it gives you so much power to understand. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:04

It's interesting, I was just thinking about this. So yeah, and I'm like this flies again, like to me that stigmatizes bipolar, like it is meaningless, it is just random things, it's you're making you know a hundred sandwiches you know over and over again, like it's very stigmatizing, it has nothing to do with someone's story or why. You know this is going on and I think ads like that perpetuate. But what I'm hearing you say is, like therapists, don't be afraid, don't be afraid of bipolar disorder Number one. Don't be afraid and I think there is a fear like we're going to push it off on psychiatry as fast as possible. Don't do that. Instead, understand the person you know, understand the struggle and the person and give them a sense of what we're calling this agency like. Allow them to have their own personal agency within their story.

Speaker 1: 50:14

Bring back the dignity for them.

Speaker 2: 50:16

Yes, yes, you know, this is. This is what I've gleaned from this conversation.

Speaker 3: 50:22

Shout out to my amazing therapist who I saw, dr Annie Annie McCall, who she said that you know I changed her view of bipolar and what it can look like.

Speaker 1: 50:33

There you go.

Speaker 3: 50:34

Wrote me a recommendation for my mental health program, my master's program, after years, after she graduated me from therapy.

Speaker 2: 50:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:44

Oh, that's awesome. Well, we All it takes is one person. It is, it does.

Speaker 2: 50:49

There's always your story and to understand and also change how they look at a person within the diagnosis right.

Speaker 3: 50:58

My psychiatrist was too afraid. The naturopathic psychiatrist was too afraid to write a recommendation for the one scholarship I found that would be focused for people that I fit for mental health going back to school. She could not write anything, she just put basic things and so the fear is big.

Speaker 1: 51:17

Yeah, don't be, don't be afraid of it, which you said earlier. I think that's such a powerful line. Um, yeah, for all the clinicians out there and and people who are going through that as well Don't be afraid of that. Yeah, you're way more than the label, that's for sure. Well, thank you for coming on the show, zelda. It's been so awesome to have you here. Thank you for telling your story. It was not easy. Yeah, we could tell it's not an easy story. So your vulnerability and your wanting to be honest and tell this whole world essentially because you know people in New Zealand are listening to us, so you're everywhere now, zelda.

Speaker 3: 51:56

Oh, exciting.

Speaker 2: 51:57

Yes, awesome. Yes, hopefully your story will inspire others and also family members of people who have loved ones with this diagnosis too.

Speaker 1: 52:07

So I loved it.

Speaker 2: 52:08

Thank you so much for coming. Yes, and if you yeah, if you've hung out with us so far, please make sure that you like, comment, subscribe. Give us only five stars, because that's all we want, and you can send us your gaslit truth at the gaslit truth podcast at gmailcom.

Speaker 1: 52:26

Thanks everybody.