The Gaslit Truth

Disrupting Mental Healthcare Norms: with Raquel Hopkins Professional Counselor & Capacity Coach

• Dr. Teralyn & Therapist Jenn • Season 2 • Episode 59

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Three therapists pull back the curtain on an uncomfortable truth: the mental health industry often keeps us trapped in cycles of symptom management rather than helping us truly thrive.

"The Capacity Expert" Raquel Hopkins joins Dr. Tara Lynn and Therapist Jen to challenge mainstream mental health narratives that have created an emotionally fragile culture. With her unique background transitioning from corporate HR to therapy, Raquel brings a refreshingly critical perspective that questions the fundamentals of how we approach mental wellness.

Together, they explore how we've confused normal human emotions with mental illness, why gaslighting exists in all human relationships, and the danger of creating perpetual therapy clients instead of resilient individuals. "Your emotions are just internal data," Raquel explains, "not facts and not justification for how people should respond to you."

The conversation dives into controversial territory, questioning whether childhood exploration should be the default starting point in therapy and challenging the notion that our nervous system is always right about perceived threats. They discuss how the mental health industry has inadvertently contributed to a culture that rewards emotional fragility rather than building capacity to navigate life's inevitable challenges.

This episode will make you question everything you've been told about mental health and therapy. Whether you're currently in therapy, considering it, or work in the field yourself, these perspectives offer a much-needed counterbalance to prevailing narratives that have dominated the mental health conversation.

Ready to develop true resilience rather than perpetual coping mechanisms? Listen now and discover how to build the capacity to navigate life's complexities without becoming dependent on therapy or pathologizing normal human experiences.

The Gaslit Truth Podcast will be live and in person at the Feed the Recovering Brain Conference in Dublin, Ohio

Join us with the top names in brain health, including Christina Veselak, Hyla Cass, and Julia Ross, author of The Mood Cure.

We’ll be bringing you interviews and behind-the-scenes content as we explore how nutrition transforms mental wellness.


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Dr. Teralyn:

Therapist Jenn:





Speaker 1:

All right, everybody, welcome to the Gaslit Truth Podcast. I'm therapist Jen here with Dr Tara Lynn. It is a Friday right now in the morning when we are recording this and I just want everybody to know the struggle is really fucking real this morning for us.

Speaker 3:

It is I mean, it's an overthink Friday, but we're trying to figure out how to start the show today, so you know this big, huge like production team that we have in the background that tells us how to do stuff.

Speaker 1:

They are on holiday today, so we're going to wing it. But before we talk about our guests and what we're going to talk about today, we got to talk about Dr Terrell Lynn's book that she wrote, because she's kind of a big deal.

Speaker 3:

Oh, she's got her book up.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3:

See the jacket. There you go. So your best brain book is available on Amazon, and if you want to learn how to change your brain and change your life, this is the book for you. And so to in the spirit of today's episode, I am going to refer everyone to chapter two, which is called change is coming.

Speaker 1:

Hang on, hang on, yes, one moment, page 17.

Speaker 3:

Yep, yep, yep, everything you want is on the other side of fear and uh, so we're going to be talking about change. We're specifically going to be talking about changes that need to be happening in the mental health system. Um, with our special guest, so yeah, we are with uh.

Speaker 3:

That in mind, you've been gaslit into believing the mental health space will help you thrive. We are your whistleblowing shrinks, dr Tara Lynn and therapist Jen, and this is the Gaslit Truth Podcast, and we have a special guest today and I'm going to bring her in right now.

Speaker 1:

She's coming. There she is. Oh slot, she's coming, put her back.

Speaker 2:

She's coming For those of you watching this on YouTube.

Speaker 1:

I'm telling you we're trying so hard today. There she is.

Speaker 3:

Alright, you tell us who this woman is and why she's so awesome so yes, first thing I want to say is I found her on TikTok one day scrolling through and I was like who is this person talking about mental health in all the ways I wish every mental health practitioner would talk about mental health. Please welcome to the show, Raquel Hopkins. Yay, I feel like we're smoking all day.

Speaker 2:

Everything this morning from you guys is just so. It just has me pumped.

Speaker 3:

I am pumped because whenever we come across, First thing, some of everything going on.

Speaker 2:

This is my type of people.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, Welcome to the fold. Welcome to the fold Raquel. So Raquel is a wife, mom, an HR professional that's interesting, Did not know that. Fold Raquel. So Raquel is a wife, mom and HR professional that's interesting, Did not know that. Entrepreneur and therapist. So basically everything who refers to herself as the capacity expert on her social media platforms and she is a disruptor in the mental health space and she is in the right place today to talk about that.

Speaker 1:

I love it.

Speaker 3:

And calls out how the industry, the mental health industry, keeps people stuck in cycles of managing symptoms and coping rather than thriving, and I cannot wait for this conversation. Welcome, Raquel.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I love it.

Speaker 1:

I love the word disruptor. I love the word disruptor. That to me is. I wish that, could that like, I'm like she's, she's got to come on Like I. I love that. I love that word. I'm like I should. God, I should have used that word in some of my stuff.

Speaker 1:

Like such a good word. I love it. Right, and, and that's really what we're talking about today Right Is we're? So we are gaslit. The world is gaslit into believing that this mental health space which we are all in, for everyone that's listening, we're all therapists sitting on this conversation here. Right? You're led to believe that that space is actually going to help you thrive, which is not accurate all the time, is it, raquel?

Speaker 2:

It's not. It's not Not at all. I always tell people that the work happens outside in the streets anyway, like if you're really going to grow, you need to get outside in the streets. It doesn't necessarily happen in session per se.

Speaker 3:

That's true, so I need to know. This is just so my mind can have this framework. You are HR professional and therapist, which came first HR, hr, and so how long have you been in the therapist space and why did you get from there to there?

Speaker 2:

So peak of my career, I was working as VP of HR for a global telecommunications company, and that was back in 2019. I started making a transition and I attended a coaching program and I absolutely loved it. I've always enjoyed working with people, but I was kind of over like the business slash people aspect because at the time I didn't have the capacity to navigate both. It's like oh, people here and then business here, and I didn't really know how to merge the two. So when I got into coaching I was like I don't know if I'm going back into HR, but if I do go back into HR, I had dealt with so many people issues that I was like maybe Well, let me, let me tell the truth because I'm not going to gaslight you guys on your own podcast, Please better not Let me not lie, let me tell the let me let me.

Speaker 2:

I was trying to summarize it, so the truth is-.

Speaker 1:

Lightning bolts will come down, just so you know, no fuckery here.

Speaker 2:

I was not thinking about going back into the HR space. So I was like, well, I don't know what coaching looks like, cause coaching was still fairly new. A lot of people weren't talking about it, organizations weren't really talking about coaching back in 2019. So I felt like I need a backup plan and I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to do with my life from there. So I always tell people when I can't figure out my life. I have educastination, so if I'm studying or reading and it's not a continuing education, I do not know what's next.

Speaker 2:

So I went back to school and I got a second master's in clinical mental health counseling Not because I wanted to be a therapist, though, because the other thing is I was used to living a certain lifestyle too. I wanted to be able to create a path for myself, but I felt like the mental health would really complement my background, and the conversations were becoming more and more and more. Conversations were becoming more and more and more, and then, when I got in the program, I was like what the heck is this In terms of what was being taught versus how I was interpreting the information from the textbooks and then paying attention to what mainstream media was saying. So I got I guess I started a program in 2020. I graduated it in 2022.

Speaker 2:

I decided not to get my license because, at the time, I was then working at a software development company and I had a portfolio of leaders and my role was 270 people. You are supposed to help them develop their capabilities. Well, they were acquired. I didn't want to do traditional HR work per se, because I enjoy the people development aspect. Didn't want to do traditional HR work per se because I enjoy the people development aspect. So I was like well, I guess I'll go back and take the state exam and become a therapist and shit, I didn't know what I was doing. Like, again school, again, let me go take a test. I took the test, I passed it and I was like, well, let me figure out what I'm going to do. And that's how I got here, not because I wanted to be a therapist. So when they try to gaslight me on social media, I'm like I never wanted to be a therapist. Anyway, I'm just using the title because people listen to experts.

Speaker 3:

Yes, oh my gosh, yes, can I? I just want to say welcome to the fold one more time, because you know, jen and I, we talk about how we got here to being therapists and whatever, and everyone expects this squishy story of self-awareness. Or I met a therapist once that changed my life I wanted to help people. I wanted to help None of that.

Speaker 1:

None of that is true, I don't even like people as much. I'm really fucked up because I have a therapist.

Speaker 2:

I really like them that much, I just wanted to keep a business going. Those are the best therapists, the ones that really don't like people. That sounds like you. I have a green room where I'm like here, I'm compassionate. And then in my where I'm like here, I'm like, I'm compassionate. And then in my head I'm like what did you just say?

Speaker 1:

Those are the best people.

Speaker 2:

I think those are the best therapists ever.

Speaker 1:

Terry's trying to build a business right. Like your, start was business building.

Speaker 2:

And.

Speaker 1:

I just wanted to be Clarice from Silence of the Lambs and work in a prison and know people's brains, and so neither of us really cares so much about being martyrs and helping people.

Speaker 3:

And I think we need more of that.

Speaker 1:

Here's to your point, raquel, when you talked about Terry and I deal with this a lot, I think Terry even more so than I do, because she has her doctorate and I don't have my doctorate, right, but people will pull her apart, but it's like, it's like a, it's like a split space. People will pull you apart because you're a doctor and how could you say these things but at the same time, people will listen to you because you have your doctorate.

Speaker 3:

So it's like this weird fucked up I got a third one. Though I got a third one. Oh, there's another one. Okay, yeah, the last one is, if people don't like what I'm saying, they'll say but you're not a real doctor, you know to to basically diminish, you know what I've, what I've been saying? So it's, it was. It's very fascinating. And if you guys haven't run across her, well, tiktok, cause I don't. Is that where you were on first, were you or was?

Speaker 2:

it TikTok and then has.

Speaker 1:

One moment Just putting my doctor coat on, there you go. How's that? How's that? Looking here, I'm a doctor. One moment, there you go.

Speaker 2:

In a world where you can be whoever you want to be. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1:

See this? Wait, can you see that? Can you see that, raquel? Not an MD, Not an MD. Wear that shit girl. Not an MD. I see that. That MD. You might want to get you one of these. Feels real good. Okay, carry on all right.

Speaker 3:

So some of the, some of the stuff if you guys haven't checked out her tiktok I think it was the very first video that I saw I sent to Jen immediately and I said I want her on the podcast and she goes, reach out, and I was like man to get another therapist. That is kind of blowing the lid off of traditional mental health. And you just said it now, like when you were in school taking these classes, you had enough critical thought at that point, you know, because you'd been in the, you'd been in the real world working with real people and real problems in HR. You had enough critical thinking to be like what is this bullshit that we are being sold in the school? Like, seriously, but there's so many people that just kind of lock their lock, step their way right into. You know all this.

Speaker 3:

And I saw I just saw a post that you step their way right into. You know all this. And I saw, I just saw a post that you had done on CBT. You know, and just be like this is not the end, all be all of everything. So, yeah, what did it feel like for you to be in that space? Cause I'm going to guess that you may have been the lone wolf essentially in this space of learning Like what is this? What was that like for you?

Speaker 2:

I struggle. I struggled tremendously, so much so that in the classrooms, you know, I became the person that was just challenging thought, just to challenge, but it really didn't make any sense to me Especially so. Let me go back a little. So I remember in undergrad right, when you had older people coming back because now they had raised the kids and now they wanted to why are?

Speaker 2:

those people take life so seriously, like what's your deal? And then I became that person right when I went and got my master's. I'm reading every textbook and I'm like, well, this definition of mental health doesn't align with what we're talking about in the course like and what we're putting out in mainstream. So it was really really hard for me. And then just like basic concepts like I'll give you one that really bothered me as a as a as a black woman, because everybody within my community is now going to therapy- right which.

Speaker 2:

I think is great. I think it's great, I believe in therapy wholeheartedly. But the data right. When you present someone data like correlation doesn't equate to causation and if you're only pulling data from places with low socioeconomic status, it doesn't pull the requails and those of the worlds, and I think that data has the ability to create a sense of inferiority. So, like, all of that stuff for me was just like a lot and I'm like, okay, this is a social science, you have to be okay with complexity. I remember listening to conversations like I would see stuff on social media and I would say where did people get this information from? Because we learn about human development, right, we learn that there are pros and cons to a two-parent household versus a single, but nothing ever says that this is bad, this is dysfunctional, this makes this wrong and somehow we've taken that thought process of understanding humans to have these matter-of-fact conversations to where everything about being human is now pathologized and I'm like I don't know which way to go, because this is insane.

Speaker 1:

When you're talking, the first thing I think about is and I don't know your opinion on this, so I might be throwing something out that you actually, that has come from this world, that you like, but I think of that fucking ACE score that you like, but I think of that fucking ACE score. I think of that right away. And all of the people that I meet with who are like I've had the ACEs assessment done and my ACE score is so high and therefore and they have already in their brain they're fucked, they're never going to get through what they've got in life, everything is pathologized because of the fact that I have been through traumas, because of my socioeconomic status, because of my one parent household, because I have a parent who is in prison, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they come and this has siloed them into pathology.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and hopelessness, and hopelessness.

Speaker 2:

Hopelessness, right. And then I'm like how do we have all of this awareness around mental health, what the numbers keep rising with mental illnesses and all? I'm like that just doesn't make sense, even just like down to the basics in terms of how we use mental health versus mental illness, right, I'm like we all have mental health. When people say like I can't think of statements right now at the top of my head, but I'm like we all have mental health. We don't all have mental illness. We could all live with one if we put depression, you know, in that same, but we all have mental health. What are we talking about? Like, mental health is a tool, it's a vehicle that you use. There are seasons where you may have to protect it, but that's not a space that you want to stay in long-term, because if you very basic words how you think, feel and function, that's what your mental health is. If you're protecting those things, do you want to stay thinking the same feeling, the same function, the same way, when everything around you is constantly changing? And in my mind I can't remember I saw a definition in the program and it said optimization. It was within the word mental health and I was like optimization. Well, I clearly have cut everybody off in my life. I'm trying to move away from jobs. I hate people. At this point, I don't think I can optimize in a bubble. I was like, oh shoot, so I hate people.

Speaker 2:

At this point, I don't think I can optimize in a bubble. I was like, oh shoot, so I got it wrong too, because I had become the queen of protect your peace, protect your mental health no new friends. But I was silently suffering in a lot of ways too, because I hadn't learned how to navigate life or build the capacity to navigate, like a sense of complexity and just people and what it means to be human. So, and then I it was another thing, cause there are a few things that stood out to me and I was like this isn't. It was like, well, mental health experts are not mental, not experts in mental health. And I was like, well, what the are we there? And then, like, following that, it said, well, you are. Well, mental health care is not supposed to create dependence. I was like, hmm, well, what are we experts in then? Helping people navigate transitory issues that have the ability to plague their mental health?

Speaker 2:

And I was like oh, that's just life in general. If you move, you go to college, you go, your kid goes from second grade to third grade, you get divorced, you get married. Those are the things that we help people, because we know that at some point you're gonna struggle with your mental health, by its very nature of you being human. Yes, yes, why did we de-stigmatize mental health? Why is there shame around mental health? If you just take the basic terminology of what the word means, we were supposed to de-stigmatize struggle, like the challenges that you would have. We were supposed to de-stigmatize things that actually should have shame around it the word mental health. There should be no shame around it, because no one does not have mental health.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, that's yeah, yeah. So, and I'm a I know you get flack right, like on your um you like I thought you would could share with us. The biggest area that you seem to get a bunch of flack on your socials for is when you I know, cause there's a few like pick one. I was like I should have prepared you with this question Like pick, the one thing that people keep like poking at you for and what you're saying you've talked about this before too because it's this idea of mental health is just mental health, by the nature of being a human and living and interacting with your environment at all, like any interaction you have right, there's going to be likely some kind of mental health reaction that you have right. So I know you've talked about this, but I'm just curious to know if that's something that you get a lot of flack for, or there's another area that's even bigger on your social.

Speaker 2:

So I said that gaslighting was normal, okay, and people did not respond to that.

Speaker 1:

Okay, can you give some context? Raquel, Can you give some context of what you were talking about during that?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so people are going to lie, cheat, steal, just do all of the things. That's what makes us human. Manipulate, yeah, yeah. Manipulate your kids, manipulate, right, they will manipulate you right.

Speaker 3:

And you manipulate them right back.

Speaker 2:

You can. My 10-year-old tries to gaslight me at least once a week, right, oh, that's it Wow.

Speaker 1:

At least once. My 11-year-old does it multiple times.

Speaker 2:

You know, some of the things that we're doing today, people have always done. We just have not had terminology for it. And I think the terminology is great right, because it's a tool, it gives us a sense of understanding. But when people say people intentionally do it, no, so that was one. Gaslighting is normal and people were like well, you're victim shaming people. I'm not victim shaming people. We all have been gaslit.

Speaker 2:

And to think that you're not going to manipulate you, whether it's intentional or not, it doesn't really matter, because you cannot tell me that my truth is not my truth. Like, unless I still have some work to do, whether it's to build my confidence, self-trust, my self-esteem is low. So I try to get people to focus more so on your internal world, because, again, I always say that they're universal truths. Like people cannot do what you do not allow them to do. So let's take ownership for the things that we do allow people to do, and then we won't be so upset or like hold this, have this chip on our shoulder for people doing things that are expected Now, whether it's right or wrong, and someone, and then they will go to the extreme. They will say well, what do you say if someone like tries to like run you over with a car Like who I?

Speaker 3:

didn't, I didn't. Does that happen on the regular?

Speaker 2:

I would consider that abnormal. Then we can probably talk about traumatic Like to me, like we have to bring like they do they bring like to me, like we have to bring like. They bring in extremes they do yeah, it's the extremes, and the other one is narcissism. Right, everybody is narcissistic.

Speaker 1:

I think that we all have narcissistic traits because yes, we did a whole episode on that one and I I went through the whole dsm and, yep, I'm a narcissist yeah, for sure like my, my thinking with that is right.

Speaker 2:

Let's just say someone really has like NPD, right, like if you knew it, or even if you're in a relationship with someone and you're really like they are narcissistic. There are two pieces to me that to that like I don't hear people say that I survived someone that lived with depression or schizophrenia, because if you actually deal with someone that lives with like clinical depression or schizophrenia, it feels, whether intentional or not, it feels like they do it on purpose sometimes because you're human too, like it can emotionally and psychologically cause a lot of damage. So I was bringing the awareness that let's stop creating these separations between mental illnesses because we don't get to control how people respond to them. And from a narcissistic standpoint, what do you expect from someone? If you're saying that I have NPD, you actually expect me to have empathy for you. Do you expect like I just don't understand that, like it sucks that you've had that experience. It sucks that people are willing to intentionally do things. I understand those things, but will we continue? Because we all can be victimized, but you don't have to stay a victim, and that was what I was calling out.

Speaker 2:

I'm never saying that abuse is okay. I'm never saying that it's okay for someone to abuse you emotionally, psychologically, and definitely not physically. But you cannot be on this earth and not experience emotional or psychological abuse. I just do not think that it's possible. When your kids even tell you that you're the worst mom in the world, that is emotional and psychological abuse. I just do not think that it's possible. When your kids even tell you that, like, you're the worst mom in the world, that is emotional and psychological abuse. Depending on how strong your foundation is in terms of do you trust yourself as a mom? Do you believe in how you show up every day Like you can't, you can't escape those things? So I get worked up because I love talking about this stuff, because I'm like this is a lot of bullshit that we're talking about.

Speaker 3:

It is. I want to add in something here too, actually two things. People with mental health issues can be just as manipulative as people who don't or mental illness, like there is a there is that feels all inclusive, but there can be a big level of manipulation that happens within that population and so and I think that gets denied a lot too, Like, oh, you're saying someone with depression manipulates 100% 100%, 100%.

Speaker 3:

They have to, like we have to, to keep our world going in that in that way until the until you decide not to the. The second thing I wanted to bring up is a really good friend of mine made a video just the other day about narcissistic stuff and she said she goes to me. It was dead on and she goes if you're on here, if you're on social media talking about how your partner was a narcissist. Your partner was not a narcissist, because your partner would never allow you to be on social media talking about how much of a narcissist they are. And I was like, because she's like she goes, they would be all over. You like you would so much so you would not say a word. You know about this and I was like man, is that not the truth?

Speaker 3:

you know and I was like, wow, so all these people on here, narcissist, narcissist system, she's like you wouldn't be doing that. If they're actually a narcissist Now could they be a real shit, human, of course, yeah, of course. Could your experience with that person be different than the experience with that person has with someone else? 100%, you know. So it's just to me it was interesting, because that whole narcissist thing is I'm tired, I'm tired of that.

Speaker 2:

It's so exhausting. You know people are tagging me. We're like you're not the expert in narcissism.

Speaker 1:

I'm like they're not even real classes to be like, you know, like real teachings. People do. They think that we learned some of these.

Speaker 2:

And you don't. You don't.

Speaker 1:

You learn some of all of it for your awareness, but there's no official certification for becoming Listen they're too busy filling us with useless shit about people getting railroad spikes through their brains and severing their corpus callosum. Like this is a useless shit that we learned. We didn't actually get full courses on narcissism or antisocial behavior or what cluster B used to be, and that's all we became experts in Like it's not a thing Like maybe the doctor did.

Speaker 2:

Did you doctor? Yeah, I did not, she did not.

Speaker 3:

Jen and I got virtually the same training, and the only training we got in NPD was trial by fire because we worked in the prison. So that was the only real training.

Speaker 1:

That was probably the realist training, because there were actual yes like that 3% of people in the world that really truly have narcissism. We got to meet some of them.

Speaker 3:

So, yes, we did, and it was all but if you don't have extreme training like that, you know?

Speaker 1:

No, we were like oh, let's become experts in psychopathology. Oh, that looks like fun.

Speaker 3:

Says nobody ever. Says nobody ever except us, because Right.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

Well, and same thing with any personality disorders, I mean those. There should be a specialized training for that, but there's really not until later. But I want to bring in one more thing, because I don't know if this was your experience, but I didn't learn how to diagnose people until I was being clinically supervised. There wasn't a class for us on how to specifically diagnose anyone, Even when in my PhD, when I was taking classes on testing right, it wasn't a here's how you diagnose, it was here's the results of the test, Now go look for the diagnosis. And I was like so I don't know if that was your experience, but I'm thinking like go ahead.

Speaker 2:

I had a it was this course, abnormal Versus Normal and I had a really great professor. You know you always get hit or miss and one of the things that stood out cause she. She talked a lot about the DSM and she used to say that, um, cause, I'm not anti the DSM, I love a good framework. Right, and framework in the sense of because you had three bad days, it does not mean that you're depressed, right. And if you look at the DSM, it does offer some form of structure. And she used to say you really want to pay attention to how many symptoms. They say, like what the timeframe is, and I think that people have just X those things out. So that wasn't. She didn't necessarily teach how to diagnose, but she brung that to your awareness that you want to pay attention to the timeframes, you want to pay attention to the symptoms, because it's easy for us to default and say that we have something or to adopt a label. So that helped me to be more mindful in terms of what I was looking for.

Speaker 2:

But we also know that the rules are different everywhere, right, like in Texas we can diagnose you and then in other states you can't diagnose. So there's the requirements across the board in different states are just so wacky and all over the place that you just know what you're getting in general. So that was my experience.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and that's interesting and I want to bring this up too, because so many people talk about I'm just going to say depression, right, and so they're like I have depression and I want to offer this to people. That's not a clinical diagnosis. Every person has depression. Every person goes through depressive states. The clinical diagnosis would be major depressive disorder. There's no depression as a diagnosis in the DSM. There just isn't. But all treatment is basically for major depressive disorder, which the majority of people don't have. And so even when people talk about medications and the over-medicating of the American society which is, I believe, to be very true they argue with me like these save lives for those that are seriously depressed and whatever, and I'm like, but most people just have depression, which is not even a diagnosable condition. It's a major depressive disorder. If we're splitting hairs here and I think that happens a lot because of psychological speak, right, we have so much psychological speak.

Speaker 2:

It's consecutive. I can have four or five bad days and then my kid wins his soccer tournament, and then I'm riding off a high for three days because we're just excited and then, before you know it, the reset, the cycle starts over. And that was the piece is the consecutive timeframe that people tend to miss.

Speaker 1:

And it takes a lot of work and time to, as a therapist or as a like I'm going to say, a prescriber of any sorts to it. We're all giving diagnoses right. The story matters, and not the most immediate, immediate recent story, but the whole story matters. But it takes time to figure out that story. It's not a quick 20 minutes or I meet you once, I give you a couple assessments and I know that whole story.

Speaker 1:

It actually takes quite some time to get to know that, which I think is great. When you see people that spend I mean they can be meeting with people for months and months and months and months as practitioners and they still have these like kind of general diagnoses on there, because it's like to put to slap something on there that says bipolar or says major depression. You've got to really make sure that you've got that history there to back it and understand it. They lie too. That's the only thing.

Speaker 3:

They lie? No, they don't, didn't we just?

Speaker 1:

go over that a second ago, okay, but here's the thing that, when you say, when we are hooked to everybody today is you've been gaslighted into believing that the mental health space will help you thrive. Can you tell us from your lens because this is a lot of the platform that you stand on what do you see that's happening, or what's the thing you don't do in your practice to stop creating these forever consumers, these people that stay in therapy forever? Because we are in very powerful positions with how we present this and I believe that people come to us like thinking that this space that we're in is really going to help you thrive and it's going to work forever, but you can keep people in this space forever. I think that's so unethical.

Speaker 2:

People say the conversation that we're having as professionals, that is unethical. But to create a sense of dependency on me as a professional, that is unethical One. I don't want to talk to you. Like I have my own friends. Like I do, I know how to build a community because I've used these resources in a great way to where I don't want all of my clients to be my friends.

Speaker 2:

Like and I love my clients, like I really do, cause it's hard to not you hear all of a person's life like you liked it, but I have the ability to move on. Like nothing lasts forever. So for me it's it's it's upfront, like the goal is to position you to live independently and autonomously on your own. That doesn't mean that you may not ever return. That does not mean that, like I, I or someone else will not be here for you, but it is not to keep you in here for eight to 10 years because you need it's this new thing, this maintenance therapy. I don't do maintenance.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, that's what it is Cause anything anybody brings up, like you said earlier, just having life and interacting with life.

Speaker 2:

you will always have something a symptom Always. You do not need to consult me for life.

Speaker 1:

Right and I think that that's kind of what you speak a lot about on your platform is this idea that we could create this and a lot of sadly, a lot of people in our profession. They do create that space. It's just like what about Bob on crack right? Like you've got these clients that never, ever, ever go away because you've taught them to pathologize, even like, oh my gosh, you have grief because you lost your pet and that's that. We will stay with that for such a long time, instead of empowering them to learn, to get through it and to know that this is not. This is normal.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Like. I think the other thing too is people are using the gym right Like therapy, is like the gym for your mind. But to exercise like you, you got to actually like lift the Like. You don't exercise in the gym per se. Maybe you do have these breakthrough moments, these aha moments, but to really take that and integrate it into your life, it happens with the people that you would rather eliminate out of your life, versus figuring out how to navigate those situations Like that's where you start to truly integrate the skills and you can see your capacity being developed from that standpoint. I know that for me, I really felt like I needed some. I was like this is just, this is not helping me, and I ended up finding Robert Keegan. I use all of the things like Eric Erickson's model.

Speaker 3:

I love it. What is your theoretical orientation? I'm just kidding, we hate that question. I am eclectic.

Speaker 2:

I am eclectic.

Speaker 2:

Everybody is eclectic One day you may get life One day. You may get my personal experiences, because I am going to share, because I find that it has more humanness. I'm everything, it just depends. I'm just not a big fan of Freud. So yeah, but like Erickson's model, like I didn't, you know, cause we know that life is not linear, right, like you know, you go back to that basic stage trust versus mistrust, and it's all focused on your caregivers. I believe that that transitions into adult life to where trust versus mistrust is still very much so a new foundation. The difference is you got to learn to trust your own freaking self, right, like it's no longer about your caregivers anymore. And I think that that transition is very difficult because, you know, I think about the statement when people say nobody taught me this. I'm like did you really think that somebody was supposed to teach you every fucking thing that you're supposed to know for your life? Like it's not even possible. It's your life, like how do we learn and grow?

Speaker 1:

All right, that's that's the title of your next of your book, raquel. Just so you know. Did you really think everyone was supposed to teach you every fucking thing in life?

Speaker 3:

I mean, can you Like, should you Really? No, no, and it's well. But again that's that victim mentality, because I have somebody to blame, because I didn't learn how to navigate this type of life situation. My parents didn't teach me that, you know. But it blows my mind too, because I think you a blueprint for your entire life.

Speaker 2:

So I guess we want to make ready-made, like when I finished with my children. You're ready made and you should be equipped for everything that you're going to face in life, Like what would be the point of living Right.

Speaker 3:

Every day is a brand new day for every person walking this earth. How am I supposed to know to teach you everything when I'm learning today too? I think we forget that, that our parents every day of their life is a new day for them to learn something, too right. How are we supposed to just lean on them entirely or be mad at them or angry at them for what they didn't know, is mind boggling to me, and that kind of goes into the space of like cutting all these people out of your life, and I feel like that can be dangerous for people.

Speaker 3:

Like, are you going to make your life so singularly focused that you have no interactions with other people that you don't like? And I look at it from the lens of me. I'm like for me it's like that old school friends and family plan. Like, is everybody going to be in that tight circle that gets all my time and attention? Are they going to be out here on the periphery and I get to choose when I interact with them? That's how I look at it. Instead of like, I'm just going to like cut you out of my life.

Speaker 1:

I still do that with my clients. I love doing that visualization. Yeah, yeah, I do.

Speaker 2:

What the U S American surgeons is that we have an issue with loneliness, and I'm like you think. Like you think about what we're teaching people like loneliness is an issue.

Speaker 3:

We're teaching you to cut everybody out of your life. That doesn't align.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, anything that causes discomfort because discomfort is a crisis now it's considered danger is toxicity. I'm not surprised that we have a lonely loneliness issue.

Speaker 3:

Right. Or or therapists being taught to just align with your clients and that's it right, like, validate, affirm all those things like, instead of you know, being a little challenging to them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Challenge them just a little bit.

Speaker 2:

but no, no, it's all about just alignment, you know you two just really reinforce my, my, my thinking on how important it is to be able to critically think, like it just listen to some more episodes. I'm going to share them.

Speaker 1:

We are Inquisition, right, like. Once we lose that, we are fucked Like may as well go just be Amoeba living on top of the pond, scum floating around Once we lose that critical thinking. And what's cool is you had it. I think the order you did life probably was really helpful for you, instead of finishing school, finishing high school, then starting the degrees in psychology, right, going in that order, because I got for me and Terry and I talk about this a lot, that order, I think kind of I mean for me, it messed me up, because then I started right into the job and then the job reinforced everything I learned in the degree and didn't have any life.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, that's what I wanted to do right so when I started off a psych major, right, but I didn't come from like a lot. So I had called the psych person one day and I just so happened she answered the phone and she was like, well, you know, you're not going to make any money with a bachelor's degree coming out. I was like, oh, I need to change my major. Then she was like I actually started off as an engineer. And I was like really, and she was like, yeah, I did engineer and then I decided to go back into, so I changed and I was like I'm gonna be a business major. They said that I'm good with people. Just somebody family member was like maybe go in HR.

Speaker 2:

I'm like okay, great, and then that's what I decided to do See we need. I wish I would have had someone like that, like oh, and my dad was like, I guess, for what people would consider traumatic. He was like do not do any of that stuff. That got ology behind it. If you do any ology behind it you're going to be broke.

Speaker 3:

And I was like, well, I guess so my dad told me a long time ago not to follow my dreams. I guess this is funny, because we were just watching Dino Hunters the other day and I looked at my husband and I said do you know? I said, do you know that I was going to be an anthropologist? Um yeah, Ology, ology, exactly. My dad when I, when I came to my dad and I said I've discovered my major, this is my freshman year of college, and he goes yeah, no, that's not going to be your major and I went okay, all right.

Speaker 2:

Your dad had the same thinking that my dad.

Speaker 3:

Yes, no theology on the end of it Exactly.

Speaker 2:

No theology on the end of it.

Speaker 3:

That's too funny. I wanted you had said a few things in your TikToks and I wrote them down, just like a little more on this, and I wrote them down just like a little more on this. We have become emotionally fragile, an emotionally fragile culture that rewards emotional fragility, and I would like for you to expand a little bit more on that, because to me, that hit hard, because that's the protection of your mental health, that's the reward of being sick, right Like there's a whole culture of being mentally ill that is rewarded, especially on social media. So, and being fragile and all of that, I would love for you to just talk a little bit more on that topic, if you will.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the the emotional piece I believe has come from at some point everyone suppressed their emotions and I don't doctor you can tell me this story but I remember reading that as early as seven years old, no matter what happens in life, we start to suppress our emotions. It's just natural because we start to want to please people. We want to make people happy. We don't want to please people, we want to make people happy, we don't want to hurt people. So to me, again, that was the abnormal versus normal. So for you to suppress your emotions is also not because someone made you do it. You could be in an environment to where it magnifies your ability to suppress. But to suppress your emotions I read that it can have. It starts to happen as early as seven years old. So I think we've doubled down on. Your emotions is like the gateway. Understanding your emotions is the gateway to having good mental health, and it's not. Your emotions is the gateway to understanding self and that's it and how you relate and interact with the people in the world around you. It is internal data, it is not a justification, it is not evidence for how people should be responding to you, and I think I see it a lot from an HR standpoint Right, because everybody needs a mental health day. Our standpoint right, because everybody needs a mental health day.

Speaker 2:

You have to walk on eggshells before you can say something, because did you think about how a person felt? Like I'm not supposed to, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't be empathetic towards people, but that is data for you, and we know that feelings are not facts. Yes, there it is. I was waiting for it. Feelings are not facts, so I don't know, and they're always, they're fleeting. I think that it's just information. It's information and we don't know how to use information. And when you don't know how to use information as a resource, you create a society of emotionally fragile people. Some of that shit just does not matter, like some of it really just does not matter. It would be like my son saying I don't want to go to school. Mommy, it doesn't matter, like if you're doing like the first day, maybe it's like all right, son, I understand that it's difficult, it's early, Yep Validate, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2:

Day three it doesn't matter, get your stuff. It's time to go to school, son. And I think that there's no balance in that right, because if we were really driving with the concept that feelings are not facts, we wouldn't put so much pressure on those things. I think the biggest thing is from an emotional standpoint. It's so that you're not reactive, so that you can hold space for other people, so that you can hold space for other people so that you can hold space for yourself.

Speaker 2:

Right, that's all it means. It's just internal data for you, but somehow we weaponize it now, because you're making me feel this way. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no one's making you feel it Again. Blame, right, blame is so much easier than growth. Oh, 100%.

Speaker 3:

And as you were talking, I was thinking, like you said, suppress your emotions. And my brain kept saying sort your emotions. Like, sort them through importance, right, like, is this emotion important? To sort through my emotions and be like, what is the most important thing that I need to do right now? Is it stand here and cry, or is it to, you know, grab the child or you know whatever? So I'm going to sort my emotions, you know, and I think that's appropriate. Sometimes I mean again, that was an extreme example, but I think we do it a lot, like even in the workplace like sort through your emotions here.

Speaker 2:

You know you're just receiving constructive feedback because you're on the verge of being fired if you can't. And then they take them. People, what they do is they go out on FMLA, like it's, it's really, it's really exhausting, like it really is, and the emotional fragility and I and I try to stay away from the word weak, because you just gave a great example, right Like, am I going to grab the baby or am I going to stand here and cry? Like, depending on the situation, the nature of the situation, sometimes it is I'm just going to cry because the baby is safe, because the baby is only crying, right, so I can have a moment here and I can have a full blown meltdown and that's OK. Well, if the baby is playing with the socket and pat their fingers, you don't have time to cry, even though you've been on for the last 10 hours.

Speaker 2:

And it's when I say you don't have time to cry, it's not that you cannot go handle that situation and then go back and say let me create space or, as you said, sort through why I feel so overwhelmed. And I think that the best therapist, they truly understand those things that sometimes you won't be able to create space for, whatever those emotions are that are coming up, but it does not mean that you don't get the choice to go back and revisit those things. Yes, and that's the part between enduring versus pushing through life. A lot of people are enduring and pushing through, so I understand what people are saying when they say, well, the generation before us suppressed their emotions. They just didn't create time to go back. But I also think that the generations before us, they had something that we're losing today, which is that sense of resiliency, and we are doomed as a society, like if this is what we're going to have, like I mean, just bring the robots at this point, because humans for no, that resiliency piece is huge, because being fragile doesn't allow for resiliency.

Speaker 3:

Right Like so you've got a mental health problem. Because being fragile doesn't allow for resiliency. Right Like so, you've got a mental health problem. How are you going to move through this? How are you going to learn from this? How are you going to grow, instead of just being sitting here and in the state of being fragile and being rewarded for that? You know, and I do think we're doomed because of lack of resiliency. We have to have the ability to bounce back.

Speaker 3:

There was a really good study. It was after 9-11 and some of the participants not participants of 9-11, but the survivors of 9-11 developed PTSD and some did not, and so the researchers wanted to understand why that was like you were involved in the same horrific event, but some didn't. Some thrived, some did not, and they were talking about resiliency factors. They were talking about how you perceived your world before this happened. How was your childhood, how your perception of your childhood and your resiliency were kind of dictating whether or not you would develop PTSD, and I'm like, I believe that a hundred percent. Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of examples in my life that I can lean on um to to make that example true, even on a personal level, and I think if we forget about bouncing back, that's when we're doomed.

Speaker 2:

I just had this thought, just listening to you talk about childhood, because I haven't released this video yet. Because I can handle the smoke and the heat, let's do it.

Speaker 1:

You can throw us in it too, jen, and the heat. But let's do it. You can throw us in it too. Like Jen and Terry said, I have to do this. Go check out those assholes.

Speaker 2:

I think that, especially when people, when people are first entering therapy, like for the first time, I do not default to talking about your childhood Now. I expect people to come in because that's what they think they should be doing. But if we start from your childhood, like to me, your entire childhood could be traumatic, even if you had, like a good child, because you have no power, you have no sense of agency. So, depending on what a professional says in front of you, every single thing, and before you know it, it's almost like your brain starts to remember and create stories that did not happen, because you have no choice as a child. Whatever your parents say, it goes and that could be in a very healthy household.

Speaker 2:

I'll never forget when I got a client that was like I had a really great childhood but it was too good and I'm traumatized. I was like I didn't say it but I was like how does that happen? Like I do, I have this green room that I check into. Like when people are saying shit that I think is so fucking stupid, and I'm like I'm looking at you and I'm like, yeah, it's I, shit, I don't know what I said but in the back of my head I'm like what the?

Speaker 2:

So, you know? You ask me you're like so what about your childhood made it so traumatic? And it's like, well, my parents gave me everything. Oh, okay, how would you have preferred for it to be? Well, I would have preferred for? And then you know what people are usually saying in that case, they wanted to struggle. They want it to know what it would like to experience something hard. Because inherently, we are all wired for growth, even though we fight to and that's the balance right we fight to survive daily, and then we also fight to grow, and some people just fall on either side. But did I was thinking I was?

Speaker 2:

I'm very careful about that, because a person can assume your whole childhood was traumatic, because you can feel helpless, hopeless, because you're a kid. Choice, there's no sense of agency, yeah, so, um, oh, I have one for you guys. So I want to to know your thoughts about the nervous system. Ok, because I think this conversation, the way that I understand it, and I could be completely wrong, but I I think I found my community here. So I say that you're, I understand the concept of your nervous system remembering things too, of your nervous system remembering things too right, like, I get that, but I don't think that your nervous system controls you in the way that we have made it out to be.

Speaker 2:

I think it communicates in the sense of like, right now, your nervous system is like are these two people in front of me safe? No different from if I was standing in front of a lion right now. Right, and I have to going back to that emotional component. And I have to go back to that emotional component, right, I have to be able to check in with myself, slow down and say, no, I'm not in front of two lions, this is where, this is where I'm. So people are starting to say, like your nervous system knows good vibes, they know good people. Well, somebody. Because, if that's the case, somebody, teach me how to do that. Because it does not. Like, your nervous system is always scanning for threats.

Speaker 3:

Like it does not know good vibes.

Speaker 2:

If anything, it knows how you do not know how to handle discomfort and uncertainty and change. And it's asking you to pay attention to what's trying to be communicated to you, because I just feel like that's a big myth with the nervous nervous system.

Speaker 3:

So it's wrong a lot, ok. Nervous system it's wrong a lot, okay, your nervous system is wrong a lot. Like assessing this. As you know, these are two lions in front of me and you know you're scared to be on here, whatever it is Like. Is that actually the truth? Well, your fear is truthful. I mean, it's a podcast, it's these things, it's people you've never met before.

Speaker 3:

But are we going to harm you? I sure as hell hope not, but your brain and body are always searching for threats. That's your set point of life, that's your caveman brain, that's your sense of survival. That's why, when you take a walk and you see a stick in front of you and your brain goes snake, possibly, you know, and then, upon further inspection, it's a stick. You know, I mean, we get it wrong a lot. But again, this is that affirmation of no, your body gets it right every time and it's like but your body gets it wrong an awful lot. So what space do you want to live in, the space of curiosity about is this right, is this wrong? Or are we just going to be like my body is right all the time and it's never wrong? So now I'm scared of everything and I have anxiety.

Speaker 3:

And that's just the way it's going to be, and that's who I am. I have this thing called anxiety, and so that's my two cents on the matter and I think that we have a lot more ability. Do I think trauma can interfere with that frequency? I sure do help ourselves to. I'll say, recalibrate that, you know that. Recalibrate that response so it's not so intense or hypervigilant or whatever. But you know, I mean when you I'm, I'm in my mid fifties. So I've of course have been through my fair share of everything in this world, my fair share of good and bad. Many people had it way worse than me. Many people had it way better than me, you know.

Speaker 3:

But if that were the case, by the time we are elderly we would just be hot mess express all the time. If only we were always in this state of fight or flight and never assessed. So I think we also naturally assess our states of being. But when you go back into we, we are rewarded for being emotionally fragile. That's a weird place to be for the younger generations to come. That's where the whole resiliency comes into place and curiosity and critical thinking about self and environment. We don't have to be stuck where we are you just don't. And we can move forward and we can change. And, yeah, I think we are getting it wrong and I'm worried about the future mental health people. So it's interesting, because I did not know that you were that brand new.

Speaker 2:

I had no idea you were that brand new, that's why I was quiet, because I didn't want people to try to gaslight me and say she doesn't know what she's done. She knew she's on every CA and I was like well then I finally was like I don't really care, cause I this stuff. It just does not resonate. And it's one thing that say it does not resonate it actually doesn't support what's actually textbook either. Like that's the piece that really gets me. I'm like did we all read the same fucking book?

Speaker 1:

Well, that's because that same books haven't changed since the thirties and we're learning the same fucking shit.

Speaker 2:

So you know, those have not evolved, the books have not changed and people say she's oversimplifying things, she's leaving the nuances. Well, that's where your critical thinking should come in at right. That's where your critical thinking should come in, because I don't know, I think it's dangerous, especially for the younger generation, because they will have these technological events, like this technology that they have. They have language now. They just have things that we have not always had, so they are more susceptible to these things. But I also think that it doesn't matter what generation, all generations are picking it up today, which means that we're passing that down Like I don't know. It's just a wild place to be in and I don't want any parts of it. And I started creating content because I was like if my son ever I just had one at a time If he ever needs therapy, I don't want him to see some of you, I want him to go back to his normal content and like just look at my content.

Speaker 2:

Oh.

Speaker 1:

I find that with both of my kids all the time like, yeah, I think they might need to see somebody. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I think they're fine, they're. They're 13 and 11. They'll fucking figure shit out.

Speaker 1:

They're all right, like yeah, uh, yeah no, and I, I don't, we don't disagree that's actually a really good idea for an episode you just gave us a really good idea for an episode there, raquel, because I think that is huge. A lot of people would disagree on that, but I think we're at a good space to wrap up, because we are almost out of time and so we have to actually put a bow on this shit and wrap it up. So thank you for being a part of our show. We're going to have to have you back. I'm just saying.

Speaker 2:

I will come back for you. I'm like can you send me your Instagram so that I can follow you now?

Speaker 3:

Like cause.

Speaker 2:

I am fans Like I am fans Like I am a real fan now.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for being on the show. We're happy to have you Everybody that has made it through to the end here we are the guest lit truth podcast and we're going to keep that big I word, which is inquisition, in the forefront of your brain, because without that, life is no good. So do us a favor If you want to support us, you can buy us a coffee, or you can go out and give us some stars, give us all the stars. Make sure you buy Dr Terry's book, otherwise we don't want anything to do with you. And if you need to send us your gaslit truth stories, you can email us at thegaslittruthpodcast at gmailcom. We'd

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Dr. Teralyn

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Jennifer Schmitz

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Dr. Teralyn

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Jennifer Schmitz

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RaQuel Hopskins

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