The Gaslit Truth

EMDR: Because Talk Therapy Alone Can Make Trauma Worse with Jeremy Fox, Counselor & EMDR Consultant

Dr. Teralyn & Therapist Jenn Season 2 Episode 64

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Talking about trauma doesn't always lead to healing – in fact, it can sometimes make things worse. This groundbreaking episode features EMDR expert Jeremy Fox, who reveals why traditional talk therapy approaches sometimes fall short when treating trauma and introduces a powerful alternative.

Jeremy explains how Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) works through a fundamentally different mechanism than conventional therapy. Rather than having clients deeply immerse themselves in traumatic narratives, EMDR creates what Jeremy calls a "dual attention process" – keeping one foot in the traumatic past and one in the present. Through guided eye movements or other bilateral stimulation, EMDR "taxes working memory," making it difficult for the brain to maintain the same intense emotional connection to traumatic memories.

We explore the fascinating science behind this approach, including Jeremy's published research on the Zeigarnik Effect – the psychological principle that explains why interrupted or incomplete experiences (like traumatic memories) remain more vivid in our minds than completed ones. Jeremy illuminates how EMDR leverages this effect to help the brain finally process what's been "stuck."

Perhaps most surprising is Jeremy's revelation that clients don't necessarily need to verbally share all the details of their trauma for EMDR to be effective. This makes the therapy particularly valuable for those who find it impossible to talk about their experiences or who have tried talk therapy without success.

The conversation also addresses common misconceptions about EMDR, the importance of the therapeutic relationship, and how medication might impact trauma processing. Whether you're a therapy professional or someone seeking healing from past wounds, this episode offers valuable insights into how our brains process trauma and the innovative approaches that can lead to transformation.

Ready to explore new pathways to healing? Listen now and discover why sometimes the

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Dr. Teralyn:

Therapist Jenn:





Speaker 1:

we're going to start off with some fan mail today. I'm so excited about this one. Yeah, because people actually send us fan mail. That's the most exciting part, awesome, yes, all right, so here it is. Just listen to the podcast over SSRI withdrawal. Oh my God, so glad people are talking about this now. I haven't been able to come off Prozac and people have thought I was being dramatic. Please keep talking about it and more specifically, what it feels like.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yeah, we can do that.

Speaker 1:

So happy to get that. Of course we're going to do that. So more to come on that. But first, did you know that only talking about your trauma can make things worse what I did? Know that only talking about your trauma can make things worse what I did? Know that, actually. But we are your whistleblowing shrinks, Dr Tara Lynn and therapist Jen. This is the Gaslit Truth Podcast, and we have a special guest today, Jeremy Fox, and he's going to tell us all about it.

Speaker 2:

We do. We have Jeremy. Let's bring Jeremy in. For those of you who maybe don't know Jeremy, he's a licensed professional counselor and an EMDR. I improved EMDR consultants.

Speaker 2:

He specializes in treating trauma and he has practiced EMDR. For those of you who maybe don't know what that is, okay, that's eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. He's been doing this since 2014. He facilitates several presentations regarding its use and he addresses the dissociation, the flashbacks, the other symptoms of post-traumatic stress. He initially developed an interest in EMDR while working in the Community Mental Health Center and he was made aware of the therapy modalities, effectiveness in treating these symptoms of trauma. He received his EMDRI approved consultant designation in 2019.

Speaker 2:

And the coolest part, his article Recovery Interrupted the Zagarnik Effect in EMDR Therapy. An Adaptive Information Processing Model was published, which is super cool. And the September 2020 issue Journal of EMDR Practice and Research, which is like, so cool to be published. Very jealous, keep moving on. This is about Jeremy, not me. So he facilitates EMDR basic training courses. He teaches the other therapists how to reduce trauma, which is super cool. Through the modality of EMDR, he brings a lot of awareness to this idea of the complex PTSD that happens, especially with the violent survivors right Supports the vets, the first responders, within this, and also brings in healthy gender dynamics and relations into play, which is super awesome. And so he's got videos, podcasts, essays he's doing all of these things. The other thing is how technology reshapes our way that we are approaching healing as clinicians, which that is a thing, such a thing.

Speaker 2:

So everybody I want to welcome to the show, jeremy Fox.

Speaker 3:

Hey, it's so great to be here we are like Jeremy, loving your shirt.

Speaker 1:

Yes, oh, thank you.

Speaker 2:

You missed the floral note memo, Terry, I mean.

Speaker 1:

I've got pattern, I've got a pattern today which normally I don't. All right, okay, thanks, thanks. I do have to say Jeremy was on my original podcast that I did some years ago and you are the first guest that has bridged the gap to both. Congratulations, jeremy.

Speaker 3:

It's truly an honor. I mean that I was like Jeremy reached out. He's like an honor, I mean that that's amazing.

Speaker 1:

I was like Jeremy reached out. He's like are you taking guests on your podcast? I'm like, why do you want to be one? And he goes, yes. And I was like, of course, Come on, absolutely, it's so good. So, because I, jeremy, is so good with EMDR, a podcast topic, so I'm pretty excited about this, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Believe it or not, you're the first, jeremy. We talk about being EMDR clinicians and here and there we'll interweave some of it, but we've never had somebody who is going to just talk straight EMDR with us and answer all the things that the whole world wants to know about this intervention. So that's no pressure, that's what you're going to do well, even the term interweave you you scoreboard for 10 yeah, oh yeah, you're on the board, that's right for

Speaker 1:

sure oh, we're keeping track. Oh, geez, I'm out, I'm done. Today is done already, so all right, if you if you haven't watched our youtube channel, you need to see what he just did. It was very emdr cliche it was so good a finger waving or wagging or one-to-one.

Speaker 3:

You got to get on the board, terry like let's go, emdr, it's not just finger wagging you need merch, jeremy.

Speaker 1:

Do you have merch for that? Yeah, I will.

Speaker 3:

You will now that's for sure that's got to go on a shirt.

Speaker 2:

I know. Please make a shirt or a mug that says not just finger wagging yes.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely All right.

Speaker 1:

That's so funny. So where do you want to begin on this topic? What do you think would be a good place to start, Jeremy?

Speaker 3:

Jeremy man. Well, you know, I think a good place to start would be that kind of spicy intro, almost if you want, of how can talking make things worse? What do you think about that?

Speaker 1:

No, what do you think about that?

Speaker 2:

We gave that idea to you before we started. We're like is this going to make sense if?

Speaker 1:

we say like wow, yes, let's talk about that.

Speaker 3:

So really, you know, in grad school when you're becoming a talk therapist, I mean talks kind of in the name. So you know I love taking classes about group dynamics and I love narrative therapy I still do. I think it's awesome, like externalizing problems and but. But all these different models share this verbal emphasis. And so after grad school, when I was in the trenches of working in community mental health and I got trained in EMDR therapy, one of the big things you learn in traumatology is when you instruct a patient to talk about their trauma and they're prone to dissociate or relive it intensely, they can actually kind of get immersed in that narrative and sometimes it can do more harm than good.

Speaker 3:

So that aspect of trauma, the reliving it, can be really uncomfortable when you don't pair it with something that distances a little bit. And so becoming an EMDR therapist, learning the model which it's an interrupted exposure model of you're in it, you're pulled out, you're in it, you come out. It's kind of like a waveform. You know, I'd work with clients and they said, wow, this is, this is different. I'm able to take a little momentary break and then go back in. And I don't have to fear take a little momentary break and then go back in and I don't have to fear that I'm stuck in the trauma. So it's very interesting that sometimes talking you can actually put someone into it more and be hurtful in the short term.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes just talking about not even trauma, but negative things over and over and over and over again. Yeah, can be very harmful to people.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's not that PE part of it right, like we're going to jump right, like I think you should talk a little bit about that because I think some of the listeners we have Jeremy maybe know- a little bit.

Speaker 1:

When you say PE, please explain that, jen, exactly.

Speaker 2:

That's where I was going. I was going to tell Jerry to explain the basis of EMDR, and here I'm using these, like you know the acronyms.

Speaker 1:

Don't use acronyms, all right these prolonged exposure.

Speaker 2:

Types of therapies. Right, that's what I'm saying when I say PE. So, jeremy, can you describe just a little bit in general for our listeners, because some of them may not have too much awareness of what EMDR is and how it is not just sitting in a trauma the entire time and exposing yourself to it, because this is kind of what you're describing when you were just talking about your last statement. So can you just give a little reader's digest for our listeners of what 100%?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so the EM and the EMDR refers to eye movement and it's very interesting because now we've added other bilateral forms like tapping or even auditory, that can go back and forth. But to stick on the name, so when the therapist and client have determined a memory that they want to work on, to desensitize, meaning take the emotional and imagery vividness out of it, a session looks like the therapist asking the client some questions what's the memory, the image, the negative self-directed thought. The therapist asking the client some questions what's the memory, the image, the negative self-directed thought, the emotions and the body sensations connected to that memory? The client dials it up, like they're getting locking onto that memory signal. And then the therapist says, okay, notice all that. And then offers the eye movement or has the client tap or hold some little hand buzzers.

Speaker 3:

And so what's happening is a dual attention process of a distraction of eye movement or tapping or whatever, and a memory that being in the memory. And so you've got one foot in each that's probably the best metaphor a foot in the past and in the present. So the client is stretching their attention, just like if your computer has too many tabs open and it's going a little slower because you're making it do a lot. That's the same impact on the human brain. It's our working memory, it's called that slows down when we add distractions and so you're teaching your brain okay, you're in the trauma. Here's that memory that's so upsetting, that feels like you're in it, but also you're in the present, here with me, and that reteaches the brain. It gets that memory unstuck from that past intrusive state, dependent mood, dependent form, and into that semantic form, that form of okay, this happened and it was terrible, but I'm not there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I could listen to your description all day long.

Speaker 2:

I was like I'm going to have to play this back and then say this to my clients, because he describes it so much better than I do. I call it voodoo. So you're actually-.

Speaker 2:

Tomato tomato right, right, I'm like there's this kind of voodoo and you're going to think a voodoo is happening, right which we'll have to talk about that, about what EMDR is and is not right. I like how you talked about working memory. You had sent Terry and I some information that I thought was super fascinating before the show, and in there it talked about what happens when you start to actually almost kind of tax working memory in a way, yeah, and how that's helpful within this.

Speaker 3:

Yes, so taxing working memory is one of the leading theoretical mechanisms that we think is behind EMDR functioning. So the fast eye movement is added during the reprocessing phase of bringing up the trauma, of bringing up the trauma, and so that has a lot of support behind it. The eye movement tapping the distancing mechanism there is really proprietary to EMDR therapy. And listen, I've trained people in EMDR therapy who came from the prolonged exposure school of thought, where that lives up to the name your client's sitting exposure school of thought, where that's like that lives up to the name your client sitting there thinking of it, you know, dwelling on it.

Speaker 3:

I had nothing bad to say about that. It's just research shows that the interrupted exposure of EMDR therapy works well. So you can have a therapy where tax the working memory, take a step back, let the person kind of notice it in the present and then go back back. Let the person kind of notice they're in the present and then go back in. So the distracted sort of interrupted exposure is also a viable clinical model and ranks up there with prolonged exposure. So you don't have to do it that way of being prolonged exposed. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

As a matter of fact and I could be wrong about this you don't even have to necessarily talk about the trauma in EMDR. So let's talk about that a little bit, because I think that scares people Like I don't want to come in and rehash and re-talk about something I've already talked about.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, wonderful point and I really like to emphasize that to my clients. When I'm giving my quote elevator speech by the EMDR and that's how I've gotten good at describing it is I try to explain it. I truly appreciate that. I mean, if clients don't understand what it is or know they really can't consent to it.

Speaker 2:

There's no informed consent when you don't describe like yes, here's what's good, what it is, yeah, and here's the risks of it.

Speaker 3:

And yeah, like yes here's what it is, yeah, and here's the risks of it, and yeah. So the important part for trauma-informed therapists to know when they're going to work with a client is are you going to dissociate Meaning, are you going to leave the room mentally and blank out when we access these upsetting, state-dependent, aversive memories? And so I really recommend doing a dissociation questioning with a client like the dissociative experiences scale. Okay, there's one for adolescents and adults. I do that with clients before we start doing memory work, emdr. So one of the things to recognize is we need to just make sure that the client can stay in the room with us mentally, is not going to enter, not going to exit that window of tolerance and be so out of that capacity that they're re-traumatizing themselves that we're activating the trauma again without purging it, without venting that in some way. So as long as we know that, as trauma-informed therapists, that they can stay in the room and reprocess this with us, meaning store it in that different way that's not as upsetting, then we don't have to know every element of the traumatic memory. We need to know they can stay in the room with us and keep one foot in the present and past as we go down that train track and they can just say we can say, what are you noticing? And they say, okay, more bad stuff. We say, okay, go down that train track. And they can just say we can say what are you noticing? And they say, okay, more bad stuff. We say, okay, go with that, because that's the up and down of EMDR.

Speaker 3:

Reprocessing is you know? We offer it, we say take a breath, what are you noticing? And they tell us and we say, okay, go with all that. And we let their brain do what it does, unless they're stuck, and we can talk about what. That it's very important for people to realize. You don't have to give and actually as EMDR clinicians we prefer shorter check-ins because your brain is doing the work. I tell my clients the brain is faster than the mouth with trauma reprocessing. It's not that I don't want to hear you. I want you to get your money's worth, your insurance, money's worth, whatever and this is where it happens in the brain, versus talking it out, slows it down.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yeah, and I like that you're just saying about the idea of giving a little less information, again, how this is very different from a prolonged exposure type of a therapy where not only have I found at least where the clients are, we're bringing in all the details, we are listening to all the details of these traumas and then they're sitting in it for quite some time. This is very opposite. One of the most fascinating EMDR clients I ever had was one that didn't speak. Okay, very, very little. She wouldn't speak. It was so difficult for her. She would write a couple things down for me, but for the most part we went into processing with her saying very, very little.

Speaker 2:

We were able to target a memory, but I had very little information on it and as we started going through the process a little bit more, she became more vocal as time went on, because it was really difficult for her to even talk about it. So there were very few words that were actually spoken, which kind of goes into this idea of like the model of EMDR, because I will tell you there are times where and for me now you can tell us if this makes sense for you or not, jeremy, but I can't always go by the book because I don't have a client who can verbally say it to me like, yeah, these are the negative thoughts, right? So what do you think about that when you have clients who are not following the evidence-based model and how we are, to kind of lay some of this out? We're taught to lay this intervention out. Yeah, because I'm finding that there's some gray within that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So oh no, I totally get what you're putting down. So I would say that when we ask the client what is the negative belief about yourself that relates to this member, or however you want to say it, sometimes that can be confusing to client. They don't really connect with that and I become more explicitly guiding the less that they kind of have an answer to that. So you know, I say, okay, the self-directed negative I statement, how about that? Something that's kind of catastrophizing. You know it's not true, but you feel it when that trauma memory comes up. So, and some people just can't give the, I'm blank. It's just called the negative cognition. It's a part of the MDR protocol. So if they can't give that and I'm not going to, I'm not going to. You know, stay on that hill and force that like no, we're not going forward until you can give me that NC, that negative cognition, if they can't, because sometimes that will come up in the throes of the reprocessing.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, it does, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's where the practice and the model, it's an art. There's an art to it, as Terry has said in the past, right, like there is an art to this that doesn't fit, always fit the model of how we've learned and been taught to do this right.

Speaker 3:

And.

Speaker 2:

I believe that to be very true. You almost have to individualize something that we were taught you know has parameters for us, so I'm glad that you said that we were taught you know, has parameters for us.

Speaker 1:

So I'm glad that you that you said that. Yeah, I've, I've said before that EMDR is is very artistic actually and I like how you said it's a rhythm, like it's an artistic rhythm, if you will. I love that and I apologize because my connection is cut right now. So if you were just going to keep rolling with it. I don't know, jen on your side?

Speaker 2:

is it the same way?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah. So I was thinking about one thing when it comes to EMDR and this is from the clinician perspective and it made me think the difference between prolonged exposure, which I'm not trained in I never was trained in. My trauma training was all EMDR, so I didn't get that. So exposure training're doing are less likely to be traumatized by the client's story if you don't need the story the way. Yeah, Do you follow what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, less vicarious trauma, right, we're not getting nearly as much as we would if our client was going through PE.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you get some, but you don't, do you guys follow what I'm saying like?

Speaker 1:

I'm like wow, yeah yeah, so from a you know, because I know burnout and you know trauma from therapists and things like that like is a big deal. And so it makes me curious about myself, like I know that I've endured trauma from stories and what I've seen in the prisons and stuff like you, jen, but it makes me wonder if I've been less traumatized than somebody who only does prolonged exposure therapy or talk therapy, you know, making things worse and all they're doing is talking about trauma over and over again with their clients. So I think maybe do we have a new research article unlocked here? I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Jeremy, you're in charge.

Speaker 3:

Yeah Well, actually I hate to burst the bubble. There actually is an article by. Patricia Torres. Yeah, that says that EMDR therapy clinicians are not as impacted by vicarious trauma.

Speaker 2:

So you know we can delve in.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's very interesting. That's great. I mean, of course, you could probably replicate that right.

Speaker 1:

No, thank you. Nope, that's good. I'm glad somebody actually researched it. But you know, it was definitely a curiosity. As you guys are talking about this, I'm like wow, that makes a lot of sense to me, since I've never done any other trauma treatment besides EMDR, so yeah, that's very interesting. There's a Jen and I have been talking. We've been mulling this idea around for a while too. So do you have any insight about someone who is using benzodiazepines while they're engaged in EMDR? I know the research is out there, but there's some clinicians that are like no, it doesn't matter, and there's others that are like it matters a lot, and research says it kind of matters a lot. Do you have any insight into that that you'd like to share? Because if you do, I've got another question upon that. What are your thoughts, jeremy?

Speaker 3:

So that's a great question. My insight on that is going to be a little limited because I don't typically like I will ask clients what medications they're on. We'll talk about it. I've worked with clients who are on diazepines and I would say I don't think I've done a ton of EMDR with that. But I know that my perspective on it is work with what you have.

Speaker 3:

If someone and this I work with an EMDR training company and they offer like a really cool video to all the trainees that's part of the week one of the weekend's trainings on addiction and EMDR therapy and the idea that if someone is not intoxicated in front of you and you've got them there with you and they have clarity of mind, work with that and do the desensitization work right. If it's not contraindicated, it's not counterindicated. So my perspective is you can try to do the work if it's indicated and ethical and the person is able to consent. And if you have to go back and retarget some stuff when they're off of the benzodiazepine medication, you may have to do that. So but people don't come in best case scenario all the time Right. Just like Jen was saying earlier, like we have to adapt protocols to people, so that goes also with the model itself and when we offer it. Sometimes we have to meet people where they are.

Speaker 1:

Well, a lot of times we have to meet people where they are.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I said that most of the time, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I mean because we've been talking a lot. Well, I don't know if you know about Jen and I a whole lot, but we talk a lot about SSRI use and SNRI use, things like that, and we were curious about that too and just didn't know. Or, if you want to join in on the conversation, about how the emotional blunting and numbness of even a typical SSRI might get in the way of processing EMDR. Because it doesn't just impact serotonin, it impacts your emotional center, the limbic center of your brain, which is similar to they're not similar to benzodiazepines, but the part of the brain that's impacted is very similar to benzodiazepines, which is also the limbic system, and EMDR impacts the limbic system too. So there's like this trifecta look at all of these things. And so we were just when Jen and I had this conversation, we were like how effective is it really if your limbic system is blunted by whatever medication is blunting it? What is the effectiveness of EMDR? I don't think we really know. I don't. I don't think we have the answer.

Speaker 2:

There isn't a lot of research out on that, because we've been digging yeah.

Speaker 3:

It's just something two and two together, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, because I'm like I was like wow, all the, the emotional centers and all this are all similarly impacted with all these medications. And so if you're literally throwing a wet blanket over your emotions with medications, is EMDR able to lift that blanket? You know, are they? Is it able to penetrate that? That's my question, that's my conversation, and I don't know if you have any thoughts, and they don't have to be research thoughts, but just any thoughts that might come to your head on that, on that conversation.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a great question. I mean if, if all the emotion is as you, as you expertly put it blanketed or blunted out, then the client's not able to bring that up and expose themselves or desensitize themselves because they can't sensitize. So if someone needs, well, it's like the spectrum of the window of tolerance kind of. It's like if someone's taking medication and they were so far up here at the top and hyper aroused and they take medication and they're still able, there's still some arousal there, emotionally speaking, physiologically speaking, that you can reprocess, Awesome, Cool. And then maybe when they're able to get off the medication, there's that remainder and you've worked on some of it ahead of time. But they were so outside that window of tolerance they were on medication, All right. But if someone else is on medication and all the emotions blunted out, you can't access it at all, then you're not going to be able to desensitize, because an exposure therapy requires some level of emotional arousal and vividness. I mean, that's what it's based on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me when we think about it. I really do think that this is an area of more study because, you know, we, we all have people that come in on your, your typical antidepressants and things like that and they want emdr and I, you know, it's a matter of assessing the emotional bluntness is basically what I'm getting from this, like how, how blunted out are you, can you actually feel? Can you feel emotions? Can you feel intensity? Can you feel emotions? Can you feel intensity? Can you feel vividness? Those are really good questions actually to ask. Yeah, as part of the screening process.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so maybe we've just come up with a new screener, I don't know Well, and that's what I, that's what I think about when I think of dissociation right and giving that the DES, the dissociative experience of scale that you were just talking about, jeremy, because I wonder sometimes, right with not only that assessment but with any kind of assessment we give people right, is dissociation a product of the trauma or is dissociation a product of the psychiatric med?

Speaker 2:

And so are we actually treating the accurate what really is root cause of dissociation? And so that's where that's the black hole that my brain goes down, because I wonder that and I've reached out to some other EMDR clinicians and asked that question, because I'm trying to wrap my brain around understanding that, because I've had clients that I do EMDR with and that are medicated, whether they're on an SSRI or an SNRI or even a benzo and I ask, I will do that scale, and I take it with a grain of salt, because part of me is also like I also know how difficult it is for you to access these emotional states and again, that dissociation you experience and how you rank on how we answer this assessment right. I don't know if it's a product of true trauma or if it's a product of your inability to feel. And so you are quite dissociated, because that's the story of most of us that are on these drugs.

Speaker 1:

The disconnected. I think you're talking about the feeling of disconnection of self and others. It often happens when people are on the long term. Yeah, it looks a lot like dissociation right?

Speaker 3:

It sure does.

Speaker 2:

Is this a product of my trauma or is this a product of these meds? And am I? Are we treating the right thing? And so there's lots of like questions we can't answer, but it bridges. I know Jeremy's like oh my God, she talks so fast and says so much I'm really enjoying.

Speaker 3:

I mean, it's tough to know where one begins and the other ends. Right, I'm thinking of the questions in the DES now, and some of those could apply to both. I get that, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it leads to then the next piece that we have to talk about, because we're all here in this research discussion now, so we want to hear about this accolade that truly is an accolade of being published in this journal for the Zygarnik Effect article. Tell us about this, jeremy. What is this?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely so. The Zygarnik Effect is actually named after the founder Bluma Zygarnik, and she was a psychologist in the 1920s that was surprised to find out that a waitstaff at a restaurant had a better memory for their incomplete orders like unfulfilled orders to give tables than complete ones. She went on to look at this idea that people remember things that are interrupted or that aren't done yet better than they do completed actions or activities. All of the list? Yes, right, yes, yeah, she was a gestalt psychologist in the whole school of, like kurt lewin, if anybody for psych 101 fans I say I'm having traumatic memories.

Speaker 2:

Can you stop talking about that? Oh yeah, I will. Oh my god, I failed psych 101 I had to take it twice. True story. Don't finger wave at me right now. Anyways, back to you, jeremy, I love that so much, um, okay.

Speaker 3:

So when I got trained in EMDR therapy, I picked up a book. Actually it was more that intro. You can't see it here I'm not going to mess with my camera because I have a good angle now but it's like the psychology book from DK, that publishing company Shout out DK. They got great books. I'm not sponsored by them, but and I was coming through it was like this zygarnic effect section, and I had been trained in EMDR therapy recently and my brain put two and two together.

Speaker 3:

It's like wait a minute, this idea that you remember incomplete actions. What does that remind us of Trauma? Okay, Because trauma is usually being trapped and unsafe at the same time. So that's what constitutes trauma If you want to go down the Peter Levine rabbit hole great author too. So, and then I was thinking about EMDR therapy.

Speaker 3:

And so when you are receiving an EMDR reprocessing session, okay, you're having to move your eyes. That's an interruption while thinking of a traumatic memory. And then there's the metacognitive check-ins. Shapiro called it like the metacognitive discussion, cognitive debriefing. Okay, that happens when the therapist says okay, take a breath, what are you noticing?

Speaker 3:

And so traumatic memories are often encoded in this interrupted way that stay dependent, like it's something that you have an urge to completion okay, that's a term in the literature, because there's actually quite a bit of literature out there on the zygarnic effect and trauma, like trauma produces this urge to distance from the memory and also to complete it. Freud used the term repetition compulsion. Right, you want to be done with what was interrupted, and so my hypothesis in this paper is that EMDR therapy actually leverages that. It leverages that interrupted reprocessing element of saying, okay, think about this. It's also called ironic processing Okay, think of the memory, and then there's interruption, and so it strengthens the desire to go through that traumatic narrative. It's like you're trying to hold on to it while being interrupted and you move through it and the brain hooks onto that and wants to go through and complete that as you're being interrupted again.

Speaker 2:

Huh, that's fascinating. So that funnels then into this idea that there are these other channels that are being accessed then in the brain to help complete this memory, to clear those channels out.

Speaker 3:

essentially, Right cause. Again, with EMDR therapy, you're not being told think about this, explain every detail right now, go right, like that can make some people freeze, understandably, but with the zygarnik effect it's like okay, so think about this traumatic memory. And then you're going to move your eyes, okay, and so you're. Then I'm going to ask you, like what are you noticing? And so there's, there's layers of distraction there and it's almost like there's another hypothesis on how EMDR works, called this is a big one the stochastic resonance hypothesis.

Speaker 3:

Oh for the love. I know I'm not writing that down.

Speaker 2:

Stop being so smart, stop it.

Speaker 3:

This is what happens when you go dive into literature on something.

Speaker 1:

You can't talk normal anymore.

Speaker 3:

Yeah right.

Speaker 2:

I think he was speaking Greek. It's fine, it's fine.

Speaker 3:

The noise of distraction of the eye movement, strengthening the person's focus on the memory that they're being instructed to think of. So that's a hypothesis of it. But it's very interesting, you know, if you put music on to study, you can kind of think of it that way too, like there's some distraction element there and then you're locking on stronger to a signal.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that was a good example, like I can follow that one.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, yes Well done.

Speaker 1:

That's the one he gives his clients. Yes, thank you. Clients, yes, thank you. I do have a question, because I think about all these other therapies that have kind of been created I don't know a better word off of EMDR, yes, the cousin therapies, if you will, and I'm just wondering what your thoughts are. I'm thinking about, well, there's different therapeutic interventions with EMDR components, and then there's like brain spotting, which I believe was an offshoot of EMDR. All these things. What are your thoughts on some of this? Because I'm like, listen, the OG is the OG. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't change and grow. It doesn't mean it shouldn't change and grow. Exactly, it doesn't mean it shouldn't change and grow. But I just, I'm just wondering about I don't know what your ideas or thoughts are on this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean I I've heard of some of these and I get curious at every. Every time I hear about a new psychotherapy that has some sort of bilateral stimulation eye movement I kind of like to dive down the rabbit hole as I can. You know, I think it's there is good as their ability to summon a past memory and expose and desensitize and create present safety. So it's like you're tuning in and getting a better or worse signal depending on how you do those two things. It's like the two axes on, like when you're graphing something, you know you've got safety and you've got the memory.

Speaker 3:

So I've heard amazing things about brain spotting to the point where and you probably relate to this and other therapists do too like, oh, I'm going to get trained in that, like the yearly, I think I'm going to get trained in this. And you probably relate to this and other therapists and do too like, oh, I'm gonna get trained in that, like the yearly, I think I'm gonna get trained in this. Uh, you know spurt, and it's like, oh, maybe not. Then, oh, I'm gonna get trained in that, maybe not. So I've been through that with brain spotting because I respect it a lot.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a collective experience yeah, and then I go. Wait a minute. That's going to cost thousands of dollars, Maybe not. That's how I go.

Speaker 3:

It's like collecting Thanos' rings. We want to have all the therapies.

Speaker 2:

We do yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So true, I feel like bowl rings, you know, like Super Bowl rings across your nose, that would be a great picture when you get your new photos.

Speaker 2:

With all your lettered therapies right across your fingers.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

DBT ring.

Speaker 2:

EMDR ring.

Speaker 1:

Love hate. Emdr Brings padding ring CBD ring.

Speaker 2:

Oh my god. I need to be a reason for jewelry.

Speaker 3:

This is yeah, this is a lot of fun. Well, there's a. There was a uh sort of narrative going around that, sorry, cbt, I guess siri was talking. We'll edit that out, I guess, guess or not, but there was a trend going around on TikTok that CBT was gaslighting yourself, and I thought that was interesting because I mean, well done, cbt is not self gaslighting everybody, it's really not. It's actually the opposite of where you're getting out of thoughts that are limited and coming from a place of fear. So it's interesting to me.

Speaker 1:

No, let's talk about that a little bit more, because I don't know how deep you want to get into the CBT world, but there is a lot of chatter on social media about CBT Not so much about EMDR in a negative way, but CBT is kind of getting a bad rap right now. I think it gets a bad rap and I've talked about this too because sometimes it looks like it is too boxed in and too prescribed. Yeah, so if you're coming out of graduate school and you've learned CBT again, this is where that artistic science comes in right. You can't just give somebody a worksheet and call that CBT or be so structured, because you lose the humanity, you lose the person in that, and that's probably what they're referring to, that. Maybe their experience with CBT has been more like that, like super structured, not client focused, like not meeting them where they are, and maybe a little too challenging. I don't know. So I don't know exactly why they're saying it's gaslighting themselves. Have you seen that part, jen? Like CBT is gaslighting you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, a little bit, and sometimes it's tied to and actually this is a truth that I think I can sit with a little bit as well is that it's such a blanket therapy, you could just throw it on everything, and I think sometimes it gets a bad rap because of that, and I do, and I see a lot of that in terms of the gaslighting part, because it's like, well, you have this issue, throw CBT on it, you're dealing with this. It's like the catch-all therapy. It seems not individualized, which, as Western trained therapists, we have talked about this even on our show and, jeremy, sometimes we get a little controversial with this because we, I do believe right that, um, that that treatment intervention seems to get thrown at everything and it oftentimes does.

Speaker 1:

Um, it really does in literature and even in research, like, uh, I just going to I'll make something up like do meds outperform CBT, you know? And so even when you read literature, like when they mentioned therapy, like something outperforming therapy or therapy outperforming something, the therapy they're referring to is always CBT Okay, 95%. So maybe not always, but a lot of the time it's CBT Okay, 95%. So maybe not always, but a lot of the time it's CBT. And maybe that's because CBT does offer a prescribed structure. I've I've said this to Jen about EMDR like the protocols are protocols Primarily.

Speaker 1:

My opinion, Jeremy, please, if you don't agree, please don't agree. Um, is is like this because you have to have a structure for research to prove something, so you have to go through the phases and the structure primarily for research, for efficacy. That doesn't lead into any artistry of it, because when you're in session it doesn't always look so prescribed. But know, um, but you have to have something that's prescribed for research. So CBT does that prescription, it does the ABC, you know, of CBT. So I don't know, I think that's where, because it is so blanketed, it gets thrown on a lot of people. Um, especially if you're working in an institution or, like Jen and I, worked in prison, because you know we talk about liability and all that shit. So anyway, I'm just rambling now.

Speaker 2:

CBT is the thing to go back to some of the gaslighting and the blanket statements. Cbt is something that we learn pretty heavily on in our education. Like EMDR was not something that.

Speaker 3:

I learned much.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that was extra, that was the add on right Like the master's degree is done, you get the license done, and then you're like, okay, what can I start practicing?

Speaker 1:

That was the first bullring.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was the first super bullring right there, right. So I think in terms of the education that we receive, that is a more. This is going to sound. It's a simple. Cbt is a pretty damn simplistic intervention. It's not nearly as complicated as EMDR and it's taught in our, in the structure of what we learn as clinicians, as one of the tools we use, and that is not something that, like EMDR, that's a later thing, that's a you're done and you're curious and you want to get add-ons and you want to be able to, like, take a focus on something, right. So I do think that it is kind of a blanket thing that gets used a lot. But that's just kind of my opinion on it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean. So I think my big thing is what's your bedside manner, to use that old medical term, if a client doesn't feel that you care? I mean, it's that that old statement of nobody cares how much you know till they know how much you care. So CBT has gotten kind of this lampoon view of this caricature of you know. Have you tried thinking differently? It's like oh no, bleep. No, I haven't, of course I have.

Speaker 1:

You don't have to bleep yourself, jeremy. Well, I don't, of course I have.

Speaker 3:

You don't have to bleep yourself, Jeremy, you don't have to bleep. Well, I don't know. You put this stuff on YouTube. It's like there's certain words you can't say, oh well.

Speaker 2:

Well then they take us out or whatever. That's probably not one of them.

Speaker 3:

But to be honest, I can see why clients would feel that that doesn't cover their experiences if it's not done in an empathic way, right. But I mean I've heard harsh stories about EMDR therapy where clients have said, oh, is it this therapy where I can't stop moving my eyes and have to go through the trauma with and you know? No, actually there's breaks. And so I've heard people receiving very bad EMDR therapy. So it is in the hands pun intended with EMDR of the provider to a huge extent. And I mean with CBT, you really don't. It doesn't. Clients need to understand the point is not to say your struggles don't matter. It's how do we think about it in a way that serves you better? How do we get your brain to serve your life better? And I think sometimes that point's missing. But anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt if you guys were saying something.

Speaker 1:

No, that was great yeah.

Speaker 1:

And it makes me think about the therapeutic relationship is really the basis of a lot of things in the beginning, right? So if you're just going in and starting CBT and you have no therapeutic alliance or rapport or any of those things which we know are like the most important thing, or if you go in for EMDR and you're like, hey, sit down, let's start, that's going to throw everything off. So maybe some of those people that had those experiences didn't have that therapeutic alliance at all or the rapport you know, or very little, or just weren't feeling it. And then, if you're not feeling it and they throw an intervention on you, what are you going to think? You know, I am the sum of this intervention. I am not a human. My experience doesn't matter. So I think for all of these, the therapeutic rapport is the most important thing.

Speaker 1:

To start with, I you know there's some Facebook groups out there for EMDR and they're consumer groups and there are some clinicians in them. I am, I just stalk it. I don't participate, I just stalk. But the consumer stories are really. Some of them are really great with EMDR, some of them are really not. Some of them are really great with EMDR, some of them are really not. Some of them are really like what? But there's, yeah, but there's also this the theme that I get a lot is well, I go to the therapist and we're on session three and we haven't even started EMDR yet and I I went to them for EMDR specific, as if they're supposed to come in and sit down and begin. So I was like, well, you don't want I mean history, you don't want rapport, you don't want like you're missing so many things. But it's interesting to me because I think it's been promoted as such a fast way to cut through your trauma that they expect consumers expect that this is going to be quick.

Speaker 2:

Well, and clients ask for that too, even when we meet.

Speaker 1:

Like how long?

Speaker 2:

will this take, jen, and they don't like my answer yeah. Yeah, I don't know for you, jeremy, how you describe that.

Speaker 1:

More precision than quick, like it's more precision, more precise than it is fast. It is faster than talking, because talking can make it worse, as we were talking about, but it's not fast. Fast. You're not going to cut through your decades of trauma in two sessions. Likely your EAP is not going to cut it for you here. Your EAP session, yes. So what are your thoughts, jeremy?

Speaker 3:

I'm with you on that. I think I have to. So I have to describe to clients like this is what the model looks like we have and even in today, my summary of it. Like I was talking about the special sauce, the work that people usually refer to when they talk about EMDR therapy, because that's kind of the proprietary stuff of the eye movement and holding the trauma in mind. But that's phase four. So, to be honest, that's not even like.

Speaker 3:

There's history taking, there's preparation, there's where you get the elements of the protocol together and then send the person into the memory. All of that takes place before, and so the expectation setting and this is such a huge topic it could be its own podcast in the therapy world of how much of the consumer mindset is being put into a medical, psychological healing paradigm where they're incongruent right. So you have to sometimes look at slower is faster with trauma work. There's no way around it. With some people, especially those who have CPTSD, complex PTSD, developmental trauma, in other words and dissociation, where you can trigger that like a game of operation you hit the corner, someone freezes up, it's like, so for their safety, there sometimes has to be a slower approach where you have them think of an element of the traumatic memory versus the whole thing and so explaining like I'm not, you know, holding you back to make more money for more sessions.

Speaker 3:

Let's get that out of the way, right, because I can see why people would think that. But yeah, because if you keep and this goes back to our earlier thing talking about it being re-traumatizing or dwelling on it being re-traumatizing, we have to gatekeep how much we dose them of the desensitization so that their brain takes it as useful and outside the comfort zone, of course, but not putting them all the way back in the traumatic memory. Remember, one foot in each, one in safety, one in trauma. So that's on us to communicate it and it's on the client to join us and seeing. Okay, psychotherapy is different than taking a pill and it immediately going into effect. Even with medication, you have to reach steady state and that takes several doses. So I think it's an ongoing conversation about how much of marketing and consumer mindset can be projected into the therapy healing realm. It's a philosophical conversation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like that I like that a lot. I do too. Yeah, so what is something that you learned that now you've come to understand is not the truth in your field or with EMDR?

Speaker 3:

is not the truth in your field or with EMDR. So if my field, it's that talking about trauma is always the answer. So that's, we talked about that. I think I've actually gained more of an appreciation for CBT and hearing about like that whole controversy of gaslighting, because, to be honest, I never gravitated toward it heavily in my own training. But now there's trauma focused CBT as a model and I have not been trained in that.

Speaker 3:

I've dabbled in looking at some of the stuff. I have a lot of respect for that and sometimes you have to meet people there, I mean. So another thing I was unprepared, had a really. I went to a good graduate program. I'm not I'm not throwing shade there, but the idea that therapy is even it's called psychotherapy right, and so now we hear about somatic therapy, but just the idea that therapy is limited to the brain, it isn't right. There's so much now involving movement-based therapies. I mean, the Body Keeps the Score, talks about yoga, tai chi, qigong. I graduated grad school before I really delved into that stuff and took the red pill on somatic psychology and sometimes that's where people have to go because they're so alienated from the body.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I like that. Is there anything else you'd like for people to know or understand?

Speaker 3:

That's great. You know, if you have and I mean this is something I really feel passionate about If you feel that therapy hasn't worked for you and your therapist hasn't done a model that helps or hasn't understood you, please be aware that there are so many different therapists, just like there's different personality types out in the friendship world you might get along with one person and not another and there's so many different therapies as well. Everything isn't going to be cognitive based. Everything isn't going to be emotion based. Find what works for you, See, what works best for your diagnosis, if you know it, or your symptoms, even Because you know there's too many good models out there that are neuroscience based. Now for people to feel like something like that, there's no help for them.

Speaker 1:

So I'm going to summarize this Take back your personal agency. You have choice and you have choice in your modality.

Speaker 3:

Yes, all right. All right.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I think we're going to wrap up this episode of the gaslit truth. So thank you so much, jeremy, for being here and sharing all of your wisdom. It was super fun.

Speaker 3:

Yes, thank you, I love it.

Speaker 1:

If you're listening, please make sure you like, subscribe, comment, share and send us your gaslit truth at the gaslit truth podcast at gmailcom. Don't forget rate us. Only five stars are acceptable, so if you're going to rate a star, it better be all five and that is a wrap.

Speaker 2:

That's it, thanks, guys.

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