Medication Tapering: Knowledge is Power Pt 2

Ready to break free from psychiatric medications? The journey isn't simple, but it is possible—and we're here to guide you through the complex reality of medication tapering in this revealing second installment of our deprescribing series.

Many people believe they're destined to take antidepressants forever, a misconception often reinforced by healthcare providers with limited knowledge about deprescribing. The truth? Tapering off psychiatric medications requires a thoughtful, comprehensive approach that extends far beyond simply reducing your dosage.

Think of medication tapering as an ultra marathon rather than a sprint. We recommend allowing 1-3 months of tapering for every year you've been on medication—a timeline that might feel daunting but reflects the body's need for gradual adjustment. Before even beginning to reduce your medication, we emphasize the critical importance of assembling your "taper team"—supportive healthcare providers, knowledgeable pharmacists, and deprescribing specialists who understand the nuances of this process.

Unfortunately, many prescribers resist supporting patients who wish to discontinue medications. If you encounter resistance, remember that healthcare is meant to be collaborative. Just as you wouldn't continue seeing a therapist who isn't supportive, you shouldn't feel obligated to stay with a prescriber who dismisses your tapering goals.

A cornerstone of successful tapering is collecting personalized data through functional lab work. Understanding your unique neurotransmitter levels, vitamin deficiencies, and cortisol patterns provides invaluable insights for creating a targeted support plan. We dive into the foundation supplements that can significantly ease withdrawal symptoms: high-quality omega-3s, methylated B-complex vitamins, vitamin D, magnesium, and probiotics—explaining why each plays a crucial role in supporting brain health during medication discontinuation.

Whether you're just beginning to consider tapering or already on your jo

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Medication Tapering Part 2
• 9:08 Building Your Essential Taper Team
• 17:35 Functional Lab Work and Data Collection
• 29:01 Foundation Supplements for Successful Tapering
• 33:34 [Ad] Halfway To Dead, A Midlife Spiritual Journey
• 34:13 (Cont.) Foundation Supplements for Successful Tapering
• 40:47 Understanding Neurotransmitter Pathways
• 50:59 Optimizing Your Personal Supplement Strategy

Transcript

Dr Teralyn: 0:22

you've been gaslit into believing that you will be on your antidepressants forever or any type of psychiatric medication. This is a two part episode and we're talking about how to taper your medications. This is part two. If you haven't listened, go back to part one, because you're going to want to combine the two.

Therapist Jenn: 0:42

Yes, oh yeah, well, I just had done the last episode. Yeah, it came out on. Yes, oh, yeah, Well, I just interrupted you. It was the last episode. Yeah, it was the last episode. Yeah, may 20th. So get your ass back to that one and listen. Okay, you continue with the intro.

Dr Teralyn: 0:53

Okay, sorry, we are whistleblowing strength, Dr Teralyn at Therapist Jen and you are listening to the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Welcome to the piece de resistance with medication tapering.

Therapist Jenn: 1:07

Yeah, Part two. People, are you ready? We're on part two of tapering off your meds.

Dr Teralyn: 1:11

Yes. So, in case you guys don't know, jen and I help people taper off medications, along with a long list of other things that we help people do. But this is kind of the passionate place that we are in right now, and so deprescribing is a thing. So we get a lot of questions, especially on social media how do I taper my medication? And I think people want like a short answer. They do, they do, which is interesting, I mean, because we all want a short solution to the mental health issues in the first place. I know, but there is not a short solution to deprescribing for many.

Therapist Jenn: 1:51

So yeah, it takes a while, and when people reach out to me and ask me about that, I'm very honest and I'm like hi, 18 months into this process and that's just the liquid part. I did about four months of work before that. So, yeah, it's a marathon. It's actually like an ultra marathon, or it's the dopey challenge that you do through Disney, when you do a marathon, then a half marathon, then a 5K and then a blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that's what this is, people.

Dr Teralyn: 2:20

That's a thing. I've had people ask me that and I say no because I'm I'm a lot smarter than that.

Therapist Jenn: 2:27

I can't handle that.

Dr Teralyn: 2:28

It's like I'm not very smart and everything but that thing is a big, no so so, anyways, that you, you know, this is like the, don't be challenged everybody.

Therapist Jenn: 2:35

If you don't know what that is look that shit up. It's terrible, but it's a long journey and it can be terrible and it can be good, but Terry and I do this for a living. This is one of the hustles we have. We help people do this. So we're going to talk about the first part of well, part two actually, but the first piece of this when deprescribing, which is this idea of having one hell of a taper team.

Dr Teralyn: 2:55

Yes and wait. I want to back up real quick because as long as we're talking about timing, I want people to understand timing for themselves. So the last episode was the 90 days before you actually begin to taper, and so then I think it's about having realistic expectations of time when you actually start the taper. So that's the warm-up period, warmup period and starting the taper. I tell people roughly like this is a rough estimate one to three months per every year you've been on something. And that's a rough estimate because for some people it's less, for some people it can be more, and it also depends upon the time you're in the taper, like because the last little bit usually is the hardest and it takes the longest. So this is just so you have like realistic expectations of time.

Dr Teralyn: 3:54

And yes, and I know lately I've been getting a lot of women in their sixties and above um and they're exhausted and they're like I just want off, I want my life back, and when I tell them one to three months, they're a little defeated because they thought it was going to be shorter and easier. So then they either go well, I guess I'll just stay on for the rest of my life, or, yep, I'm ready to tackle it. So that's a rough estimate of time and I think it's important for everyone to have a good idea of what this might be like. Okay, so, like Jen, you're in. You said 18 months, so far 18 months yeah.

Dr Teralyn: 4:30

Because you said you started.

Therapist Jenn: 4:32

You know three, four months ahead of time, 25 years on, right. So for reference everyone, 25 years on the medication on and off, went on and off of it and apparently there's a couple other SSRIs in there too, that I don't have recollection of, but they're in my records, but yes, about 25 years.

Therapist Jenn: 4:49

So when you put that into context, it takes a while and my story is not everybody's story. However, what we know specifically from SSRIs and SNRIs is the longer that you are on these medications, the longer it takes to taper. In general, that is a pretty blanket statement that I think is fair to make. So so it takes a while For some people.

Dr Teralyn: 5:10

I will. I will say that there are some people and I don't, maybe they're just lack awareness of how bad it is for them, but who go off of it quickly and then they're done and it's like it absolutely is not.

Therapist Jenn: 5:22

That's that's. That's a bitch of this process is. We want like a quick answer and it all one size fits all, a little like you put it in the box and it's not. And we, I think, as deprescribing consultants that's a lot of the coaching work Terry and I do is working through the psychology behind that, because it's a hard truth when you start to go through this and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't go down anymore, I can't go down, I can't go, I've got to go back up, I've got to reinstate. So we'll talk a little bit about that within this, but the meat of today is talking about just a few main components of what happens after the 90-day warmup.

Dr Teralyn: 5:56

So let's jump into Taper Team and what that is All right, so Taper Team might look a little different for everybody, right? Right, and I think in the in the beginning phases of building your team, that your team is who can support you, and obviously you're going to need some type of support from your prescriber, because jen and I don't prescribe and we won't deprescribe you in that way, so you're going to need to have your prescriber on board in some way, which is hard, and you know, jen, you can share a little bit of your story if you want to getting your prescriber on board. It's ridiculous.

Therapist Jenn: 6:38

Statistically it can be, I would say about 25% of them to 30% of them. This part's easy right. They go in, they have the conversation they talk about, they educate their provider on this, because most providers have no idea. Prescribers don't know what this is. The prescriber says, yeah, okay, I'm willing to look at this with you and I'm willing to look at a liquid down the road and I'm willing to look at that. Okay, and it's fine. Then there's a good 70% of the people that I work with, including myself when I started this process, where it doesn't go that way. Prescribers say no Prescribers. I was told that's not necessary and I have great success. Just pill cutting with my clients, jen, you would have been institutionalized, and I almost was I almost was in this process.

Dr Teralyn: 7:26

Even on a slow taper.

Therapist Jenn: 7:28

Damn like a couple times. There's been a couple really bad times, so that's more common. I hear more of that, but for long and short term.

Dr Teralyn: 7:45

There's one more common thing that has been popping up is when people go I've had some clients go to talk to their prescriber about, you know, deprescribing right, and they'll share with them the plan, like here's the plan, here's what I want to do, and then they'll walk out with a new prescription that has nothing to do with the plan. It has everything to do with what the prescriber wanted the plan to be. This has happened now two times in the last two months with people and they don't realize that it's the refill right. So the refill then changes to reflect what the prescriber wants versus what the client needs. So that can be another battle too. So anyway, so these are conversations, they are.

Therapist Jenn: 8:26

I mean, I walked in there with the. I walked in there with the Maldsley manual and, for those of you if you're on YouTube watching this, I walked in with this manual, this deprescribing guideline, and I sat it in front of my prescriber after the second time of her not wanting to do this, and I opened to the pages of Lexapro and I went through this. I said I want you to look at this and I'm tapping on the book like something a mother would do, right, because I was so pissed, because I'm like this is ridiculous. Now for some of my clients you get to that point and you find yourself a new prescriber because, guys, the whole point of seeing a provider, if you think about this, the whole point is to have like an understanding and for a provider to support the clients. Like that is the whole. That is what healthcare is supposed to be, is supposed to be about right.

Therapist Jenn: 9:12

So you wouldn't go see a therapist and stay with a therapist who isn't supporting you.

Therapist Jenn: 9:18

You wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't go to an ortho doctor who is going to do a surgery and doesn't support at all and understand, like, where you're coming from as a client, like when bedside manner sucks, people leave and they go get a second opinion. You wouldn't go see providers that aren't going to meet you where you're at, but yet for some reason in this world of psychiatry and prescribing, we stay with providers who are not listening to us. I don't know why the fuck we do that. But I'm on my high horse for a second because it happens.

Dr Teralyn: 9:51

No, but really that is a fascinating conversation. Find somebody, guys.

Therapist Jenn: 9:56

Providers are a dime a dozen, just like psychologists and therapists go shop, damn it, shop around around Well, in part in particular because most psychiatric medications aren't prescribed by psychiatrists To your general providers, your OBs, your family doctors, your nurse practitioners, which is why I say go to your prescriber, not to your psychiatrist, cause usually it's somebody, not a psychiatrist.

Dr Teralyn: 10:20

Go find somebody else.

Therapist Jenn: 10:21

I've had two clients in the last month that left their prescribers and went and got a different, and they were both. One was seeing an OB and one was seeing a general medical family practice doctor. They went and got new people and I went and got a new person and I'm still in the process and I'm done with that. I'm still sick of it.

Dr Teralyn: 10:39

So people know it's not always that easy to find somebody new, but if you need to do that, do that. This is why building your team is important. You do that before you even start the taper. You know who's on your side. These conversations happen earlier.

Therapist Jenn: 10:54

So you find your taper team which, as Terry was saying, you build this team, which is not only going to support people in your life who are willing to listen to you and understand what deprescribing is. One of the things you don't want to hear someone going through. This is well, I know you're really struggling right now, terry, and maybe you need to go back and see your doctor and go back up on your meds. That person one needs more education, or two is not someone to have on your taper team. These aren't the things we want to hear. So you pick people who you can educate and who are willing to just like, validate and listen and support you. That's important. But then you also need people that are not in your immediate environment, but your doctors, your prescribers. That's very important. Whoever I mean whoever you're working with deprescribing on needs to be a part of your taper team, like people like Terry and I.

Dr Teralyn: 11:47

So and also I think I usually tell people to take a trip to your local compound and yep, this is the next one, because because I think that's another place that we feel like we don't have a lot of influence over, because you get it, the prescription goes in and you pick it up and that's pretty much the extent of it. I tell people find a local mom and pop compounding pharmacist. They're everywhere. The big box ones aren't as helpful because they're slammed all the time. Not saying that the local ones aren't, but I feel like the local ones are more apt to educate and listen and whatever. Go have a conversation with your compounding pharmacist to see what the best way to either recompound your medication, make a liquid form or even possibly teach you how to make your own liquid form. If you don't feel comfortable doing that on your own, so go have somebody teach you that.

Therapist Jenn: 12:46

And don't rely on your prescriber to do this. I made the mistake of that and I think a lot of the people we see make that mistake. Once you're at a space of starting this process, you can actually look at what tapering could look like in terms of a liquid. First, you got to find out if it comes in a liquid. Is there a dissolvable form? Are there strips? There's lots of options that are out there, most of which you're not going to know unless you have a direct conversation with the pharmacist. So that's something that I did.

Therapist Jenn: 13:17

I had to switch pharmacies because mine was not a compounding pharmacy. They didn't have the ability to do it. The second one I went to did, but they didn't take um, like good RX programs or programs that help pay um for some of these prescriptions, okay. So I had to go to a different one because the cost was astronomical. So what you got to do is you start to do that. You can call around, you can talk to these pharmacists. They can tell you that Um.

Therapist Jenn: 13:41

So what you've got to do is you start to educate yourself on the type of drug you have. Is it a powder? Is it a pill? What forms does it come in, because you will have to get to a space for most of these drugs where you're going to have to compound it into a liquid form, which essentially means taking that drug and it being mixed with water, which is how they do this and they compound it the milligrams per milliliter that are in these drugs. So that's part of your taper team, so to not spend too much time on that, but that's part of the team that you got to have.

Dr Teralyn: 14:12

I think they're the most important part. You have to dial it in before you start and there are options, guys, even if you don't.

Therapist Jenn: 15:20

Can you pull beads out? Can you weigh beads? Can you get yourself a jewelry scale? Can you shave powder? Can you mix beads with food? Yes, these are all options. You can make your own compounding liquids. But this is good research to do on the front end so that you know what those options are.

Dr Teralyn: 15:41

Well, I think doing that for some people feels way better than fucking around with your pills.

Therapist Jenn: 15:49

Like you know like it's such an arduous task.

Dr Teralyn: 15:54

Like it is, it's very tough, and it's one of the things that I think can stop people from moving forward, because it takes so much effort. Um. So if you can outsource that effort to a compounding pharmacist, I would say try that.

Therapist Jenn: 16:09

If the drug allows it.

Dr Teralyn: 16:10

Yep, that's what I. I would be doing that, I would definitely be doing that, yeah. So I would say, give that, give that a good try, you know. So, cause even Jen, you you've talked about, even though you do get your liquid compounded that sometimes you're like, oh, all I do is think about the little syringes and all this stuff.

Therapist Jenn: 16:30

It's so much on your mind. I know there's a lot I mean, I'm married to these syringes that are in all my drawers every single night that I have to like okay, who am I going to pick tonight? Okay, here's your one milliliter, here's your 10 milliliter, like it's right. Yeah, so there's a whole. That's a whole, nother piece to it. But I think you can work through it and sometimes, yeah, it's a we don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but yeah, that was part of part of the mind fuckery that happens.

Dr Teralyn: 16:55

And Jen, are you really having withdrawal, because you know every time you change the dose, uh, because you're you know I want to make this clear too that you can even experience some withdrawals from changing forms. How the, the, the form of medication, right, you can also have withdrawal from the source of the drug.

Therapist Jenn: 17:18

So you can go ahead and get one one pharmacy that uses a certain drug company and if they switch and use a different one, or you get on a generic that's actually made in another, another drug company, and if they switch and use a different one, or you get on a generic that's actually made in another drug company, you can also experience adverse reactions from that. That is a real thing.

Dr Teralyn: 17:33

Yes, and I think that's something that we don't talk about enough. It gets dismissed a lot. Well, it's the same thing, it's just off-brand, it's just a different color.

Therapist Jenn: 17:41

We just got it from a different manufacturer Jen, that's the one I've heard. Yeah, it doesn't matter. What I'm experiencing is real, is real.

Dr Teralyn: 17:50

So, with that in mind, when someone switches, I'll just say form. So if you go from your capsule or whatever to a liquid form, you're going to want to stay on the exact same dose for a while.

Therapist Jenn: 18:02

I always suggest that to people. A lot of them don't want to, and that's fine.

Dr Teralyn: 18:06

You don't have to Everything is just a suggestion. No, they want to get started. I got it and I want to go.

Therapist Jenn: 18:10

But once we get taper team dialed in, then here comes this idea of the next step, which is and Terry and I are going to talk about this, but we're going to give you guys the kitchen sink. These are Terry's words and I love it, I use it. She should just like you, should like brand that. But it's this idea of we're going to give you like what works the most effectively and there's options within it. You don't have to do all of these things, but damn, if you do it, you're going to be way more well prepared. And we are talking about doing lab work. We are talking about doing some functional medicine work at this point with functional labs.

Dr Teralyn: 18:42

Yes. So I like to give people the opportunity to also go to their doctor again and do. If you haven't done a physical exam, like a yearly physical, do one. This would be a great time for you to do that, with all the labs that come with that. So your CBC and even cholesterol, do it all, and then Jen and I will A metabolic panel, right, micronutrients, even get your thyroid checked.

Dr Teralyn: 19:11

So do it all so that we have lots of data, and I talk about this with people. So much of this is collecting data, especially in the early days. The more data we have, the more informed decisions we can make around that data. So if you're coming back and you've got some micronutrient problems, or even I'll just say even vitamin D like if your vitamin D is super low you can be damn sure we're going to be accounting for that in your taper, because that could be the reason why you feel like shit anyway.

Dr Teralyn: 19:46

So you don't need more meds. Maybe you need vitamin D, right? So these little bits of information can yield really good results for you when we actually look at them in functional lab ranges, I'm going to say because there's a difference between Western medicine within range and functional medicine, optimized ranges, and there's a big difference between these two things. I'll give the example of vitamin D for a minute. So where we live, everyone's low in vitamin D. But you know what? The elderly people in Florida are super low in vitamin D, as well, but vitamin D production also decreases as you get older.

Therapist Jenn: 20:27

The body produces less because of your hormones.

Dr Teralyn: 20:30

Yes so, but nobody takes that into account.

Dr Teralyn: 20:32

So anyway. So that's why I'm saying this, because even if you live in a very sunny state all year round, your vitamin D still could be very low. So your vitamin D ranges look like I think it's like 34, 35 is where they start within range, and it goes up to 100. That's your within range. Well, that is a really large range, but optimizing is like 80 to 100. So if you're sitting down at 34, 35, and you feel like you've got low mood, low energy, you've got a ways to go to optimize that vitamin D. So, yeah, so that is one real, I think, a good example of like this range is so important, and if you're 34, you're almost out of range.

Therapist Jenn: 21:21

You are and you might be somebody who actually does feel so much better. Right, they say like an optimal range is between like 40 and 70 or something. But you may be somebody who you can be at like 60 or even 65 and you still don't feel well. So we need to bring you up to a higher range, um, and we play around with that because you, you might be out of that that range. But that's the difference, as Terry is saying, between like functional optimal. I mean we look at optimal levels for people and how they feel versus here's what a range says Thyroids the story of so many people with thyroid issues. Right there you talk about Western medicine and the optimal range Hand raised.

Dr Teralyn: 22:04

There you go, hand raised. Yes, yeah, because if my thyroid were, I think it goes up to four or something like that, the TSH. They'll say well, you're within range. If I was a four or even a three, and sometimes even a two and a half for TSH and thyroid, I would be napping all day, but I would be told well, you're fine.

Dr Teralyn: 22:26

That's within range, but that's not within my range, and so, again, so much of this is like reclaiming a sense of yourself and understanding and, oddly this is so odd when we're talking about vitamin D it is one of the labs that you literally have to ask for. It's not included in a typical panel for a physical exam, which is mind blowing to me because it's so important for so many things, but you have to ask for it. So, jen and I will give you a list of labs, like the extra labs to make sure that you have when you go to your physician's office and ask for those, and sometimes they get denied, which is also weird to me. Why would you deny someone a vitamin D lab, which?

Therapist Jenn: 23:09

doesn't matter, because, guess what? We got options for you.

Dr Teralyn: 23:12

Doesn't matter, you got 50 bucks, we'll take care of it for you.

Therapist Jenn: 23:15

Like we will.

Dr Teralyn: 23:16

That's what I ended up doing. It's not hard, whatever Like it just.

Therapist Jenn: 23:19

It's not hard to find alternatives.

Therapist Jenn: 23:21

We'll run the HSA card and here we go, let's do a lab. So there are options. But the other thing to say about this, before we move on to some of the other areas, is there are options for also assessing symptoms and how you are feeling. That if functional medicine and doing lab work in this way is not an option for you, okay, because not only can you do it through your doctor, but, like Terry was just saying, this is something that you can do through us as well, and we will put together an awesome report that is going to tell you all the things about your adrenals and some of your hormones and your main neurotransmitter pathways right.

Therapist Jenn: 24:02

Serotonin, dopamine, you know, gaba, glutamate, all the things right. We can do that.

Dr Teralyn: 24:07

It's a thing, yeah, Even things like histamine and glycine. We can look at all of these neurotransmitter levels. These are called functional labs, and it's interesting because I get this a lot too Like well, can't I go to my doctor and run these labs? I'm like you can ask them about them, but they're not going to be knowledgeable of functional lab work.

Therapist Jenn: 24:28

They don't actually know they exist. Guys, they don't get it. Yeah, they don knowledgeable. They don't actually know they exist, they don't get it.

Dr Teralyn: 24:32

Yeah, they don't, they don't know it, which is funny, like how do you not know it?

Therapist Jenn: 24:36

But anyway, I just had a client tell me that my doctor says you can't measure serotonin and I'm like I pull out my report and I shake it in front of my camera. Here, here's mine. Yes, you can Right, yeah.

Dr Teralyn: 24:52

Yeah, and your cortisol throughout the day, Like again these are functional. So when we say functional, Jen and I are not looking for disease states. We're looking for how your brain and body is functioning.

Therapist Jenn: 25:03

So that's the easiest part.

Dr Teralyn: 25:06

Yeah, because here's the thing. I'll just say this we can also do checklists, which is what Jen was talking about, like mood checklists and things like that. However, the one big thing is this Low serotonin and high serotonin have almost the same symptomology? Yeah, and also, where is your anxiety coming from? If you have anxiety, where is your anxiety coming from? Where is your anxiety coming?

Therapist Jenn: 25:35

from? Is it because you have low GABA or high dopamine or?

Dr Teralyn: 25:36

high serotonin or low serotonin, right, all these things.

Therapist Jenn: 25:38

So if we don't know why, it's very difficult to direct care in that way. So, again, the checklists are okay, but they're they're a little bit the taper team dialed in and you're understanding who you've got on there. Then we go to functional lab work or subjective assessment work going to your doctor, getting some labs done at your doctor so that we have data, so that we can actually use some data to move to the next space of this, which is then looking at what kind of things do we need to possibly supplement with yeah, your plan creation, we create the plan right.

Therapist Jenn: 26:38

That lab work can tell you a lot about which areas also of like those mental health pillars that we talked about in the last episode we need to focus on. If you're somebody whose cortisol is not optimized at all and you are waking up with very, very little cortisol right, and throughout the day it just keeps dropping, okay, that's going to tell us something about what we need to focus on with you. You know, if your norepinephrine is not converting to epinephrine because it requires that to do that right, then not only is your dopamine channel messed up, but this is why sleep looks the way it does, and it's all interconnected, guys.

Dr Teralyn: 27:17

So then we can actually it's mind-blowing, the connection when we make it it is, it just is right, so nothing is siloed in this process.

Therapist Jenn: 27:24

In the world of functional medicine, nothing is ever siloed, so we look at are there supplements that could be helpful? Are there nutrient deficiencies that are occurring that we need to work with via supplementation via food? Could amino acids be actually helpful for you at this point, because your dopamine pathway is not looking good and we might need to work a little bit on not only getting your cortisol in a good space, but also you might need some L-tyrosine to start kicking that pathway up.

Dr Teralyn: 27:56

It's all interconnected or bringing it down, like not tyrosine for bringing it, but bringing it down again. So this is that piece where, if we don't have this information, we can't create a very customized plan for you that you're going to feel and I tell people like you're going to know when it's right, like you're going to know when we have everything dialed in and correct and with that, like I also think, the functional lab work this isn't an advertisement for functional lab work, but this is I also feel like it's so important because once we can see it, then we know exactly what supplementation for you to use and what's going to hit the hardest. Without that information, people get a lot of supplements just kind of thrown at them and they don't understand their reasoning behind. And so I think that's one of the places that Jen and I do really good work is. We'll say, like she said, tyrosine.

Dr Teralyn: 28:57

Tyrosine is really good for that dopamine pathway. Remember, your lab work said your dopamine looked like this Tyrosine will help improve that pathway and you should get a little bit more giddy up and drive. And people then are like, oh okay, that makes sense. Or let's say, all of your neurotransmitter pathways are low, like your big ones like all right, we need to not only maybe supplement, but improve your protein intake a lot. So it gives us just so much beautiful information, and I always talk about this as being an art form. This is the art. This is the art. And so there's also this piece that can feel overwhelming and Jen was talking about that kitchen sink idea. So I get a little too giddy and a little too much, and so I'll create these reports.

Therapist Jenn: 29:46

I was so overwhelmed the first time, the first report I ever had from Terry, because I've done all this guys, I've done this whole thing, so everything we're talking about like kitchen sink, I was like, well, fuck it, I'm going to do it, but the first time.

Therapist Jenn: 30:00

I actually saw my labs, which Terry was actually doing a training for myself and for some of our other colleagues, and she's like, can I use you as a subject matter? And I'm like, well, sure, I mean, I haven't seen my labs anyway. So let's look at the report. And I just sat there like open mouth breathing. I'm like I can't even follow a fucking thing she's saying right now.

Dr Teralyn: 30:23

Okay, but which is hard for me because I'm like I get so excited about sharing all the things I overgive clients information, and then I see this gloss.

Therapist Jenn: 30:32

Look, when I'm doing consulting, I'm like I'm giving you way too much shit. Okay, let's slow down. But we have the ability to do either baby steps or here's the whole kitchen sink. But the beauty of this is you can take the whole thing and you pick the areas you want to start on. Take the whole thing and you pick the areas you want to start on. And this is super important when you're also looking to taper your medications, because I hate to tell you guys, but when you start tapering off, it can change how these levels look. It can change how you metabolize things in your body. Now, we're not in there to know all of that, but if we've got some data that we can use to try to optimize how we're doing it and I don't know maybe decrease the likelihood that you cause harm to your brain and body or go through some significant withdrawal why not?

Dr Teralyn: 31:24

Yes, even just your very basic foundational pieces of supplementation can be so important If you don't want to go to the next step and use, like amino acid therapy or whatever, like just those basic foundational pieces can bring you so much relief.

Therapist Jenn: 31:39

Let's give people that package the top, like five or six. We've talked about this before when it comes to supplements, supplements, yes.

Dr Teralyn: 31:47

Yeah, Okay, so well, I mean, you can help me out with this too. But my non-negotiable number one I think you're probably going to know which one I'm going to say, my non-negotiable number one is omega-3 fatty acids. I didn't want to say it out loud because I'm like we could not agree on this.

Therapist Jenn: 32:03

but yes, yeah.

Dr Teralyn: 32:04

And that's fine. We don't have to right.

Therapist Jenn: 32:06

Yes, omegas.

Dr Teralyn: 32:07

No, no, no, but I'm sure our top five are going to be similar. If you don't do anything and I'm talking about a super high quality omega-3 fatty acid, not a buy one, get one free at Costco because you're not going to get shit from that, but I'm talking about a super high quality in a higher dose omega-3 fatty acid. In a higher dose omega-3 fatty acid, I think people get a little bit shy about taking supplements as well, so I take one omega-3. Do you know how many of those things I take? Three.

Therapist Jenn: 33:10

I take two to three.

Dr Teralyn: 33:11

It depends.

Therapist Jenn: 33:13

Yes, I take three.

Dr Teralyn: 33:14

Yeah, yeah, they're good for your cholesterol, they're good for your heart and they're also really really good and important for your brain health. So I think, again, people are kind of shy because they're worried about what's going to happen. But this is what happens. You take one. You're like, yeah, it doesn't make a difference if I take one or not. I'm like, yeah, of course, because you need more than one.

Therapist Jenn: 33:33

And you'll notice, guys, you will notice, and Terry and I have talked about this you'll notice if you take them for a while, and that if you stop and if you go four or five days without, them your word finding is shit. Things get foggy. Your brain will either go faster or slower than the words that are coming out of your mouth. You just have this like meh kind of feeling Metabolically. Things slow down in the body, guys, they change because that's what omegas also help with. Right, there's a cardiovascular piece there's an inflammation piece.

Dr Teralyn: 34:06

They help to fight inflammation. So there's, there's that, and if you're listening, I'm a menopausal woman in. If you're in menopause, this is like a non-negotiable like do omega-3 fatty acids? So that would be my number one. What's your number two?

Therapist Jenn: 34:21

So my number one is that as well. Then my number two is a really good ass. B complex is a really good ass, b complex and when I say good right, I'm not even talking about quality, I'm talking that is a huge thing, but also like, um, look and see what kind of B is in it.

Dr Teralyn: 34:43

It's active forms of what you're looking for.

Therapist Jenn: 34:44

Yeah, so if you guys methylated active, so when you're looking on the back of your supplements, you're going to see it's going to say like I don't know, pick a B, any B, b, b2, b3, b6, right. If there's something in parentheses after it, that's you that you can't pronounce. Or it looks like a word you've never seen before.

Dr Teralyn: 35:03

Yeah, go for it.

Therapist Jenn: 35:07

Yes, that means it's actually an active form of that B.

Dr Teralyn: 35:18

So a little caveat with B complex, so many people will want to buy like a B6 by itself or a B3 or B2. A really high complex. They work synergistically together.

Therapist Jenn: 35:23

So you're going to want a high quality B complex, most of your B complexes are going to have like a B1 in it and a B2, a B3, a 6 or a 7, 12.

Dr Teralyn: 35:37

So these are Methylated folate should be in there too, somewhere Methylated folate.

Therapist Jenn: 35:41

That's going to be your B9.

Dr Teralyn: 35:43

Your 12 is your there you go that one See I can't even say the words.

Therapist Jenn: 35:49

You got it right the words you can't pronounce that are afterwards. That's what we need. There those are good, so I would it's a toss up, because for me it's going to be between the B and the D for the second.

Dr Teralyn: 36:00

Oh yeah, vitamin D. I'm thinking about the ones that I take every day and I take omega-3 and I take vitamin D and again I. So I just happen to have a little bit of genetic information for myself. I don't I'll say hang on to vitamin D. Very long in my body it's gone. Like I need higher doses due to some genetic snips that I have. So I take like people are going to freak the F out on this. I take 20,000 IUs throughout the winter and about 10,000 IUs.

Therapist Jenn: 36:31

I take about 10 to 12. That's my average yeah.

Dr Teralyn: 36:35

Yeah. And so this is the part where I say, like, I think a vitamin D lab is about 50 bucks and I know for some people that's too much and I get it. But again, go back to your doctor, keep asking for it. I tell people, especially in the first year, when you're figuring out your vitamin D level, go in every three months and just get it checked, see where you're at, so you're on top of it, or you know if you need more or less in between. So every three months, and that'll hit all the seasons, so that'll be good. So, yeah, vitamin D. So we have omegas B-complex vitamin D. So we have omegas B complex vitamin D. Three, oh, let's see Number four. Um, I know what my number four?

Therapist Jenn: 37:14

would be. I can tell you. I'll say mine. I don't know if it's yours or not, but mine's magnesium.

Dr Teralyn: 37:19

Oh, that's going to be my number four. Yep, that was going to be.

Therapist Jenn: 37:21

this is not pre-planned guys, like you might think it was. But yeah, terry and I are not gaslighting you right now. We didn't go through our list beforehand but no, oh, she lost her microphone. She'd be out. I can't hear you. This happens sometimes. So magnesium is a huge thing for Well, essentially. Hang on, guys. I'm watching Terry and she's trying so hard to get in it, but I can't.

Dr Teralyn: 37:50

She has no volume, I got it.

Therapist Jenn: 37:51

Oh, there she is, she's back.

Dr Teralyn: 37:52

I don't know what happened.

Therapist Jenn: 37:53

I'm distracted by her. So magnesium is responsible for over like 600 functions of the body. It's unbelievable the amount of power that magnesium has. Now I take a powder form of magnesium and Terry and I've talked a little bit about this before, but there's different forms of the supplements that you can take. Right, your most effective ones are going to be those that are going to be at some kind of a liquid form. Okay, if you, if you can get it not all of them come in that right.

Dr Teralyn: 38:26

Right. Well, I want to just share about the reasoning for that. So liposomal forms are the best form of anything Something a liquid drops I mean powdered liquid drops dissolvable in your mouth Because if we can get that absorption to begin in your mouth and almost bypass your stomach area because most people have such bad stomach issues you're going to get more bang for your buck when it comes to this stuff. So if we can start that absorption right in your mouth, it's going to be better for you. And also, some people are really like capsuled out. They're like, oh, don't give me another goddamn capsule or pill or whatever. It's a pain.

Therapist Jenn: 39:07

The liquid versions they do cost more. The powder versions they do cost more. So if you're going to do a liposomal form of something, they are a little bit more expensive.

Therapist Jenn: 39:16

They are more expensive, but we're breaking that blood-brain barrier immediately. We're actually getting more of the contents and the compounds of what is in those supplements versus, if you think about it, guys, like everything has to go through the stomach and it's got to process through the organs of the body, right, um, and it'd be great to bypass that unless you have the most optimized gut on the face of the earth, which, guess what, if you're doing deep prescribing, you don't, you don't, I hate to tell you, but your gut health is, is health. That will be a journey you keep working on too, because unfortunately, there is a lot of damage that is done from psychiatric medications in the gut, the gut health, unfortunately.

Dr Teralyn: 40:00

So that would be number four. So number five I'm going to say specifically for deprescribing, I would say, a probiotic.

Therapist Jenn: 40:10

Ah, yeah, okay.

Dr Teralyn: 40:12

What would you do for number five?

Therapist Jenn: 40:13

Well, I was kind of going to, um, I was kind of going to folic acid because of how much the foliates are depleted. Um, that's one of when we're looking about SSRI is one of the first the nutrient depletions that the big ones for some of these drugs is folic acid. So but some of these supplements, guys, depending on what you get, they may have some of that in there.

Dr Teralyn: 40:38

But then maybe I would go for a high, super high quality multivitamin, multimineral, multivitamin, cause that would have that in there.

Therapist Jenn: 40:46

That one is one that sticks in the back of my mind because when we go through nutrient depletions for most psych medications that's like number one on the list.

Dr Teralyn: 40:55

And B6. Is it B6 or B3? Is the other one B6. B6. Yeah, so this is the funny part, because this is where we start, like, well, my number five would be different, and so pretty soon we've got the top 10, right, and that's where you individualize it, though.

Therapist Jenn: 41:11

Right To wrap us up where we started this conversation is if you're not going to do too much in the realm of supplementation. Here are, like, some of the basic ones, for the most part, that are going to be helpful, these ones that Terry and I just rattled off here. These five are going to probably be the most effective and helpful for you through a taper. But the cool part about doing some of the functional medicine is then you get to actually see what amino acids possibly we could add in here that might be helpful to optimize some of these neurotransmitter pathways. So it seems like a lot, but something I mean. There was one point when I was doing this okay, where I was taking I had 12 different supplements total 12, between the amino acids that I was taking and some of the other vitamins that I was taking, and actually it was 14 if I add in the two powders of magnesium and vitamin C that I was taking.

Dr Teralyn: 42:06

Been there, done that Okay.

Therapist Jenn: 42:08

However, everybody, just so you know, that doesn't last forever.

Dr Teralyn: 42:13

Like supplements, are not some you might like there are a couple I will take forever. I will take a vitamin D forever.

Therapist Jenn: 42:21

I will take an omega-3 forever. Yes, there's like two or three that I will take forever. Um, and a magnesium like these will always be in my regimen until your foundation. That's it Okay. However, the 14 I was at I now am, there's only about five or six I take. Yeah, and yes, I took them for like a year, but I started to you start to play around with after a while, what it feels like to not take them because your brain starts to optimize. So, even in my taper, I'm still tapering everybody I've got. I'm at 4.3 milligrams I. So even in my taper, I'm still tapering everybody. I'm at 4.3 milligrams. I'm 17, 18 months into this.

Therapist Jenn: 42:58

I don't have to take those same ones. I don't have to take P5P all day long. I don't have to take that every single day anymore. I don't have to take the L-tyrosine as much as I used to. I've been able to pull those out. I had some things that I was taking for metabolic issues that I was having. I don't have to take that anymore. So they're not forever. So it's something to think about too, because it's overwhelming sometimes with the amount that you take. But again, hi, I did kitchen sink everybody.

Dr Teralyn: 43:22

Welcome to kitchen sink. Jen's either all in or she's not, so that's just the way, but that's the way. I was too Like, and and I've I've done that, and when I know that my brain health is kind of faltering, um, I will go back on regimen, and I've done it before, and so I'll do the kitchen sink again, um, and then I'll go off when I feel better. So that that's kind of the best part, like when we I want to talk a minute about amino acids in particular, because I think there's going to be some people that don't know what the hell we're talking about when we say amino acid, yep, and also this idea that amino acid therapy is not addictive, it's not dependent. There's no addiction or dependency here. You will not experience withdrawal when you stop and you don't have to take it forever.

Dr Teralyn: 44:08

So, because amino acids come originating from food, particularly protein sources. So you're getting amino acids just by eating chicken, right. So, but if you don't have the nutrient cofactors that we're talking about your C, your D, your Bs, like you're, that neurotransmitter pathway like if you're trying to make serotonin is not going to do it very efficiently, okay. So that's why we go back to those foundational nutritional pieces and then you add in the medication that you're on, which is depleting actively, some B vitamins and things like this, and now you know you really have to put those back in your diet in a bigger way. Actually, while you're on medications you should be taking a B vitamin anyway, by the way, because of the depletion that happens.

Dr Teralyn: 45:01

So, anyway, amino acids come from food sources, so primarily your protein sources, and then so if you want to make serotonin, like your body needs serotonin, we want to make some serotonin. You're probably going to start with chicken or turkey. We'll just say some poultry, right? So your poultry, your amino acid, will then turn into serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter, and then eventually that will break down into melatonin which will help you sleep. So here we talk about, you know, this big movement for people to take all this melatonin.

Therapist Jenn: 45:32

I'm like no optimize your serotonin pathway. We're just dumping a hormone in the body.

Dr Teralyn: 45:38

Right, oh no, it's natural. It's natural Right.

Therapist Jenn: 45:41

Do some reading about melatonin and actually find out.

Dr Teralyn: 45:44

Yeah, it's out there. Guys, we should do a whole episode on that, especially for kids.

Therapist Jenn: 45:53

It's out there, guys. We should probably do a whole episode on that. We should do a whole episode, especially for kids. It's out there, guys. Yeah, but that's what Terry's saying. Let's optimize that neurotransmitter pathway. At the bottom of it is melatonin, at the top is your tryptophan and then that converts down right To 5-HTP serotonin.

Dr Teralyn: 46:00

Yeah, here's the newsflash about the neurotransmitter pathways. When you're on medication, that neurotransmitter pathway is going to be hijacked in some way. Either the neurotransmitter is going to be super high or eventually it's going to be super depleted. So optimizing that pathway becomes even more important, because you can't get something for nothing.

Therapist Jenn: 46:28

And they work together. Guys, these, these, these pathways work together. So for example okay, 25 years on on an SSRI on Lexapro right. You would think that my serotonin pathway would be all yeah. Like you would think it's perfect, Okay, Um and then. Or you would think it's all fucked up like one or the other right, Like because of taking this medication and actually Well for me, because I know it's all fucked up right.

Dr Teralyn: 46:56

I know that. But for the average consumer, they're believing that their serotonin is right where it needs to be.

Therapist Jenn: 47:02

So the interesting part when you do functional medicine guys is for some people it's super messed up up. For some people that pathway actually doesn't look bad, but their dopamine pathway is fucked up.

Therapist Jenn: 47:15

So that was in the case of mine. So I'm thinking, well, serotonin can't be looking okay and it was. It actually was in an okay space, but my dopamine looked terrible. And not to spend too much time on this, because we do have to wrap up here. But think about the idea that these pathways, they work together. The body is constantly trying to figure out how to make them work together, and so when you're putting a psychiatric medication in the body, it may be somewhat of helping one of the pathways, but it's pulling from resources from the other pathway, or from hormones, or from hormones right, to make that homeostatic space. It's constantly doing that. So what's interesting is, you might think, well, I'm just going to go ahead and work on the serotonin pathway, because I've been on SSRI for 25 years when, in fact, that pathway looked pretty good for me and I was feeling pretty good in that one. It was my dopamine pathway. That was all. The catecholamines were all messed up.

Dr Teralyn: 48:11

And your cortisol was pretty horrific.

Therapist Jenn: 48:14

That was bad so it's kind of one of these things where, yeah, what Terry and I are talking about is you can throw supplements at things, you can try it, but if you don't test, you really don't know and you can make it a lot more efficient. I don't know like you might spend a handful of money at the beginning, but you're going to save some money in the long run on supplements. Yes, very true. I would have constantly been dumping in all kinds of like serotonin pathway things, not knowing that I was in adrenal fatigue, I wasn't producing cortisol and my dopamine pathway and my GABA pathways were all jacked up. I went to watch those.

Dr Teralyn: 48:52

It's very interesting because I do get a lot of clients actually that have been searching for answers for a while to their taper and they, you know, they hear somebody talk about a certain supplement and they're like yes, that's the one I need to try next. And so they're literally come in with a big box of supplements and the idea of adding more is hard for them. But usually what I do is I evaluate. First of all, I'll evaluate if they have a B complex. I'll evaluate the label and be like listen, if you're going to take this, which is fine, we'll take it till it's done and then we're going to upgrade from there. Or this is how many you should probably take to optimize this thing, like sometimes with Omega oh my God, omegas are the worst because I'll look at the label and be like you know you need to take eight of these to get the same value as two of this brand over here, and they'll be like what I'm like yeah, it's really your choice. You can keep taking these two for one, eight of whatever.

Dr Teralyn: 49:59

But so I will literally evaluate and be like this one is optional. You're not going to get good bang for your buck with this one. So in the beginning. For some people it's a lot of sorting through some of the supplements that they've already purchased and, you know, help them along the way. But I commend them because it just means that they've been searching for help and nobody has been able to put it all together for them until they get to the office. So you know, supplements are a big thing right now, and so that's really what Jen and I are saying is, I don't like to throw a supplement at something just for the sake of supplementing you. Let's make it count, let's make it matter and get your best bang for your buck, essentially emotionally and financially, if you will.

Therapist Jenn: 50:47

So yeah, so those are our big, big pieces, that are the steps that happen before we even work on actually tapering with a client.

Therapist Jenn: 50:58

So the last two episodes here are all the things that are most optimal. Okay, does it mean that you have to do all of those things? No, I mean, you have your own agency. You can figure out how you want to do this. However, if you're working with Terry and I on this, these are all the options that we give you. I mean, there are so many, but these are all the steps that we lead up to and if you notice, as we wrap up here today, we didn't even talk about the actual taper part. Do we have to have a part three? We might have to, cause we didn't even touch. I'm looking down at the time. I'm like shit, we didn't even go on the taper part. We might have to actually then do an episode just on like what the the actual taper part is for everybody. So maybe we should do that. I think we just talked ourselves into that.

Dr Teralyn: 51:40

I think we just talked ourselves into doing that.

Therapist Jenn: 51:43

Yeah, Um, and how that looks. So, but this is, uh, this, this is the Gaslit Truth Podcast. If you made it to the end with us, um, you've got Dr Tara Lynn and therapist Jen your two whistleblowing shrinks here, and we are also deprescribing consultants, so we help. We help people go through this.

Dr Teralyn: 51:57

That's the fun part for me. Yeah, I know how many hustles we have.

Therapist Jenn: 52:00

It's like I'm tired just talking about all this shit we do, but if you made it this far, um, you want to go ahead and send us your gaslit stories? Please don't hesitate to do that. You can email us at thegaslittruthpodcast at gmailcom. You can find Terry and I in the Gaslit Truth Podcast on all the socials all over the place, and so reach out, let us know, give us some five stars, tell us what you think of the show and we will see you guys next time.