Rethinking My Own True Acceptance: Willy Millard’s Journey to Authenticity

The moment Willy Millard walked in on his parents meeting with school officials asking "What did we do wrong?" after he came out at age 12, he knew the journey ahead wouldn't match the promised narrative. That painful memory still resonates years later as he navigates the unexpected complexities of identity both within and beyond the LGBTQ+ community.

In this raw, unfiltered conversation, Willy shares how he discovered that coming out didn't lead to the unconditional acceptance he'd been promised. Instead, he found himself trading one set of boxes for another – now expected to define himself according to rigid community classifications: Was he a twink, a bear, or an otter? Which hanky color should he flag? The very community that preached acceptance demanded conformity to its own complex codes and categories.

As a successful stylist and salon owner, Willy also pushes back against being labeled "the gay stylist" rather than simply being recognized for his craft. He questions why his sexuality needs to be the qualifier for his professional identity, noting with pride that his recent magazine features celebrated his artistry rather than his orientation. This professional pigeonholing mirrors his broader struggle for authentic self-expression in a world obsessed with categorization.

What makes Willy's perspective particularly valuable is his refusal to give up. Despite the challenges, he continues engaging with the community, hoping to disrupt established patterns and find genuine connections. "Every once in a while I'll find somebody just like me," he explains, those rare moments of authentic understanding that make the struggle worthwhile.

For allies wanting to support LGBTQ+ individuals, Willy offers refreshingly straightforward advice: be yourself, let the other person take the lead, ask honest questions, and remember you don't have to support everything to be supportive. His message ultimately transcends sexuality – it's about the universal human desire to be seen as a whole person rather than a collection of labels.

Ready to rethink what true acceptance looks like? Listen now and join the conversation about finding authenticity in a world of boxes.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Willie Millard
• 3:21 Coming Out Young: The Parental Reaction
• 9:47 Forced into Boxes Within the Community
• 18:03 The Hanky Code and Sexual Categories
• 29:05 Being Labeled as "The Gay Stylist"
• 38:55 Finding Your Truth Despite Community Pressure
• 53:59 Final Thoughts and Authentic Allyship

Transcript

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 0:02

Hey everyone, you have been gaslit into believing that as soon as you come out, people will love you, life will be easier and the gay community will accept you. We are your deep-throating informants, dr Terrilyn and Therapist Jen, and you've landed on the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Today we have a fabulous fucking guest on the show.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 0:23

Super special person.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 0:24

This is my brother, willie Millard Willie. Welcome on the show. Super special person. This is my brother, willie Millard Willie, welcome to the show.

Willy Millard: 0:30

Hello everyone, Hello, hello.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 0:33

Everybody. Willie Millard owns 100% you Salon and he's someone who just cannot be happier to be part of such an incredible industry that really does celebrate true beauty. Willie's mission is all about helping his clients shine and live their most beautiful lives. Willie is very passionate about others seeing him not as just a gay stylist but as a real whole human who will not be put into judgmental boxes that are actually part of that gay community culture. We're going to talk about that today. Welcome to the show willie yeah this is where things get serious.

Speaker 4: 1:11

Yeah, do you want to?

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 1:12

talk about your outfit before we start, and how you just ran up and down the stairs of your house in little leather shorts, and the struggle is real this morning guys, all I'm saying is leather in the morning.

Speaker 4: 1:23

Running does not equal happiness.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 1:25

Leather and sweat doesn't equal happiness, and we were talking about this up front, about the Friends episode where Ross wore leather pants and got all sweaty and then he added in baby powder or cornstarch or something and he turned into doughy paste, and I feel like that's what Willie is doing right now. I feel like the Pillsbury Doughboy he's making a cake in his pants right now, pants cake. He's making a pants cake that might be a deliverable. I don't know. It depends upon how I feel when I make the social media stuff.

Willy Millard: 1:55

So anyway, Welcome to the show.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 1:58

Willie, we're excited to have you here. It's been a long time coming. It took us a while to get you here. You had a lot of shit going on in your life the last like four to six months. It's just one thing after another. So you made it.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 2:15

Glad you're here. If things get weird, I'm going to put myself in the middle on YouTube, just so you know. So I have to muddle through some family therapy for the Miller family here today.

Speaker 4: 2:21

Oh man, all right, I'm set for it.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 2:24

I think we can do it All right, we could do it here, all right. So, willie, what we wanted to start with and have you start with, if you're comfortable with this is let's go to the beginning a little bit, if we can, or at least go back to some of the things that you shared with us that are important for you to share with the world here in terms of your truth and how you've gotten to where you are today when it comes to your identity. So we're going to let you have the floor here and tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 4: 3:00

All right. So I think the weirdest thing and the thing that I've never understood is when everybody says, like when you come out, right, everything, it's like this big glorious thing. They're like you know, as soon as you come out, the community is going to be like loving on you, you don't have to worry about trying to fit in anymore. All of this stuff Well, not true at all of stuff Well not true at all. When you actually get accepted into the community and you figure out like who you are, you come out, you do whatever you need to to fit in, that you feel, and then you get put on this chopping block. They all look at you and they're like okay, so straight people aren't going to like put you into boxes, but we're going to put you into boxes.

Speaker 4: 3:41

So I think that was like the scariest moment for me, when I realized that I'm like stepping out of one thing into like another fire. And for me, like coming out at such a young age like I was only like 12. I knew in fifth grade who I was. I didn't come out until sixth grade and that whole experience was so scary for me because I wrote a note to my parents saying like, hey, this is what's going on. I hope you still love me.

Speaker 4: 4:11

Everyone at school loves me and the worst thing that I could have probably imagined just happened Instead of my parents talking to me, they actually went to the school and had a meeting with my teachers and I walked in on them and to the conversation. What did we do wrong? So, right off the bat, like I didn't feel accepted, even like my own house, so that was really hard for me to understand, like your parents are always supposed to love you and be in your corner and then walking into that and then then even just going to the school and like being like hey, what's going on with our son? Like that's kind of that was just a crazy moment for me.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 4:57

Can I just have a question to ask, and I said before I'm going to bumble my way through this episode, everybody, so just bear with me. I said before I'm going to bumble my way through this episode, everybody, so just bear with me. When you said the community loving you, were you expecting which community were you expecting to love you? Were you expecting both communities to love you and accept you, or just one? Or were you worried about, I say, both communities, like the LGBTQ community, versus your?

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 5:22

parental community Say it. Willie. Insert your words, the what Mafia.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 5:29

So what do you want to call it in this episode? Because I want to make sure that I'm, you know, alphabet mafia, alphabet mafia, we can call it the alphabet mafia.

Speaker 4: 5:36

I feel like it's a fitting term, like it's very much. Anyway, back to your question. Yes, so for me, like it was just being accepted overall, like I think it was. Like so many people tell you like when you come out and like you are living your truth, they're like oh, don't worry, you're going to fit in, just great. But they don't tell you that there's so many other things that you have to figure out and you're put into boxes. So I was hoping, but in reality, like it took a while for both of them to get there but at that time nobody did. Like nobody understood who I was and nobody was. They were like scared of the fact.

Speaker 4: 6:18

Like my parents didn't know what to do with me, um, and like when I excuse me, when I first entered the community, like I didn't even know what to do with myself because, and like, when I excuse me, when I first entered the community, like I didn't even know what to do with myself. Cause, like when you enter the community, like you feel like you're put on a chopping block, like you have to realize, like what type of body type are you Like, who do you like? What's your sexual preference, what's your favorite position? Like, and all of this at the age of, like you know, 10, 11, 12. What kind?

Dr Teralyn Sell: 6:42

of community is there for at the age of, like you know, 10, 11, 12? What kind of community is there for at at your age, when you were 12, right, which I'm sure wasn't as long ago as I think for me would have been uh, but what kind of community was there waiting for you, or what did you have? Did you have an idealized version of what that community was? Or because social media, even a big deal at that point, or no, like no?

Speaker 4: 7:07

that was when instagram was like still brown, like the little icon was still brown. Okay, there there wasn't really a community and I went to a small school. So I went to a bigger middle school and then I got bullied out of that and actually got put into a charter like small school, like a STEM based program school. So my class went from like 800 kids to like one five. So it was really scary for me because like there was like everyone at school knew and like all my friends were like we were like in middle school. We were cool. Like you know what I mean. Like All my friends were like we were like in middle school we were cool. Like you know what I mean. Like it's awesome, but outside of school there was no one.

Speaker 4: 7:48

And that's then like where you fall into, like okay, well, like you start going on the apps and you start pretending to be like older than you are, which got me into trouble and then you start like meeting people and like through that you like get immersed in the community. And as you get older, you see, but when I was 1213, like in that realm I didn't know what the hell I was doing and like I was too like afraid to ask for help Because now that I'm out, I'm supposed to just know everything, right, like I'm supposed to be like hey, I'm walking on a cloud here, like I don't need help anymore, but in reality, that was probably the time that I needed the most help, because I didn't know what I was doing or who I was supposed to talk to about anything be who you are.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 8:45

You know, jen has said things like, unapologetically do these things. And then suddenly you do these things and you lose. You lose people. You know you lose friends who are like wait a minute, we wanted you to be who you were, but we didn't think it was going to be like this. We didn't think this. You know, this version of you, even though you're like, this is the best version of me, like, but we liked you in that other box. So that's like a whole bunch of lip service that people give like be you, pursue you, like be who you are. It's going to be great. That's exactly what you're saying. It's going to be wonderful. And then it's like but wait, there's a lot of grief and loss in. That is what I'm hearing. Yes, so especially when you're 12.

Speaker 4: 9:25

Yeah, it was.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 9:26

Well, whatever it sucks, period. But like that would be even worse, like yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, it was.

Speaker 4: 9:32

Just like an awful it was. I think it wouldn't have been so awful if, like, my parents wouldn't have like gone to the school, like if I wouldn't have walked into that meeting, if I would have realized like I could go years without knowing that, but like knowing that that's what sucks, like walking into them and hearing that conversation, like that it hurt and it still hurts, and like we've come a long way, but in that moment, oh, I want to just go and cry in a corner.

Speaker 4: 10:03

Yeah, yeah, I want to just go and cry in a corner. Yeah, yeah, and it's just, it's so. It's so disheartening, I think, to have people that say like I'm going to always be there for you, and then when they do that trying to be there for you because I'm sure they had great intent, but, like it, it didn't come across that way, so I lost a lot of trust in them in that moment.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 10:26

Which is probably why you turned into going online and things like that seeking out older support stuff like that right.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 10:34

Well, you said something earlier about the help that you needed. Is not the help that you received, is not the help that you received. So can you talk a little bit about and I'm air quoting for those of you who are listening and not watching us on YouTube I'm air quoting help. So what did that look like for you? What did you receive that you didn't need? What?

Speaker 4: 10:56

were you told yeah, so I think for me, what did I receive in that moment? I received positive feedback from my friends, which I freaking needed. I loved it. But as soon as I stepped out of that and like looking for other people, like going on these apps yes, looking back at it, it was a freaking awful idea, but I was hoping that, like, there'd be other people like me or people that went through this.

Willy Millard: 11:23

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 11:23

Like hey, hey, like yeah, let me help you out. But unfortunately there's a lot of predators out there, there's a lot of creepy people out there. So like I fell into the trap of like okay, so like, if they think I'm pretty, if they think I'm hot, oh, I'm that cute young person. Maybe we can start a conversation off of that.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 11:52

That's not what happened, right, right, so there was help that you were seeking out within your own community, right, essentially, that backfired. Okay, was there help that you also received outside of that community that you were told you needed, that backfired as well of that?

Speaker 4: 12:04

community that you were told you needed that backfired as well. Yeah, so I was told I went to therapy at this time in my life. I was told I was going to therapy for anger management. Okay, so I feel like every 10, 12-year-old has anger management issues. I don't know. I feel like that's very common very, he's oppositionally defiant, everybody like odd.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 12:27

Yeah, adhd anger issues. Label, label, label label.

Speaker 4: 12:31

I'm sure you had all those labels at some point put on you, william yeah and like so, just like, like going back through that, I'm like what the hell just happened. But anyway, yeah, so I was told I was going to therapy for anger management. Okay, cool, went to therapy. I just there's like three specific times that I remember. At the time I didn't have a lot of friends, so I had an invisible best friend. My therapist told me that was fake and I was putting my guard up because I didn't want to talk to anyone. So after that day I told my invisible best friend to leave, which was really sad because then I had no one to talk to about this.

Speaker 4: 13:15

I also found out that my therapist wasn't actually working with me on anger management. My parents sent me there to deal with who I was. They knew who I was at a young age, but they didn't know how to deal with it. So they threw me into therapy and told me that it was for anger management and put me on medication. And to this day I actually found out about a year and a half ago, because my father let it slip to my now husband, about a year and a half ago, because my father let it slip to my now husband that what I was going for wasn't for anger management. It was because they knew who I was and they didn't know how to deal with me.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 13:53

You just found this out, like in your adult life. Yep, okay, yep. So I would have had to take a day off of work, or a year, or something like yeah, that was.

Speaker 4: 14:03

The crazy thing is we were getting ready for bed, like it was like a hallmark movie moment, like we're on, like loading the sheets and putting the pillows up to the front. He's like, oh yeah, me and your dad were talking and like he told me all about when you were younger and you went to therapy because they were trying to figure out everything. And I was like I went to therapy for anger management. And he's like, no, they said you went to therapy because they didn't know what to do with you and I like lost it. I started crying. He was like what, what? And I'm like I didn't know any of that. Like up until that point I knew nothing of that. So for the past year, I'm like, oh my God.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 14:42

This is funny Not funny, haha, but funny. Your parents didn't know what to do with you, so instead of them going to therapy to figure it out, they drag your ass to the therapeutic altar and they go please fix him. Here's what we have. I think he's angry. Maybe I don't know, but I just need to be clear here. Did you go to therapy to try to change your sexual orientation, or was it that type of therapy?

Speaker 4: 15:12

at the time, see, and that's what I do remember is there wasn't questions around that. There's a lot of questions about your friends and how do you feel about them? And like, are you attracted to them? Like, yeah, like, and that's the like I have, like my best guy, friends who have been in, like they were in my wedding, they've been my like core, my rock, and like I just remembered, those conversations may be so uncomfortable because I I didn't know what to say and she just kept going at it and I just would shut down, and that's when I would talk to my invisible friend and then that's when that whole oh, it's just a front, he's not real, all that shit happened. But yeah, so she never came out and said anything that I can recall, but it was a lot of like how do you feel about your friends? Do you find them attractive, like that type of stuff?

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 16:03

Yeah, Well, in the part about this that I had shared with you before, willie, the piece of this that really bothers me is this idea that you've got someone who's 10 years old and who, at this point, as you're saying, in like fifth grade already, you know what's what, you know what's going on inside of you, you know your truth, you are understanding this for yourself, your identity is forming and for you that's a scary space to be because, of course, it doesn't fit into this nice little societal norm box, right, okay, and so you are gaslit into believing something's wrong with you and that you have significant amount of anger issues, emotional issues, right, and so then we need to get you help for that, okay, and so you go to get help for that, and help equates to therapy, help equates to psychiatric medication for these anger issues that you have.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 17:10

And something I think right there, which is the start of a lot of the gaslighting that happens with people who are part of the gay community, this story is going to resonate with so many people, willie, because when families don't know what to do, or they're uncomfortable, or it doesn't fit their religious beliefs, it doesn't fit their own belief structure, their own morals, their values, whatever the hell you want to call it right.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 17:42

Desires of their children as they're growing up and having grandchildren and all the things, all the things right, building the vision right of your child.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 17:49

Here you are and you go right into this little okay, something is wrong with you. So here you are, something's wrong with you. You get labeled with a diagnosis. You get medicated. Labeled with a diagnosis, you get medicated. And I was pulling some information up and I told you this earlier. There's a lot of research out there that talks specifically about the alphabet mafia community and how you are over-medicated and how the mental health struggles that you have start quite early and contribute to going to seek out help and a lot of times that help isn't helpful at all. So then we take somebody and we label them. They don't fit into the box, we medicate them and they're 10 years old, correct.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 19:39

Well, that was the beginning of the iatrogenic harm, starting with psychotherapy. That was very harmful to you as a developing young person, period Right. And I would argue that any parent who's listening here, if you're going to take your kid into therapy, you better damn well be in there too. Most of it is relational and family systems and things like that. That's my personal biased opinion about this piece of it.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 20:07

I, you know when Jen was talking and she's you know, I know we were in a funny way calling it the alphabet mafia. But you wouldn't call it that if you felt very connected to it or I'm guessing you wouldn't call it that if you felt like you were part or accepted fully into that piece of the community. So I want you to talk about that, because there's going to be a lot of people like I can't believe you're calling it that, blah, blah, blah. But there's a reason why you're calling it that and I that's the story that I want to hear because you weren't even accepted into that community or something. So tell us why. You're not like glomming on to the mainstream titles and things like that. What's going on?

Speaker 4: 20:52

So I think for me I mean I live in a small town, I don't live in like all the big cities, so for me it's not like super immersed here Everyone is very like oh, there's like a gay person over here, there's like a gay person over there, Right.

Speaker 4: 21:08

The token gay guy that are out and those gay people do like just don't talk to people, like it's just not a thing. They don't communicate at all. So it's very hard. But the reason why the community and I don't connect is I don't understand the idea that they preach. They're like, they're all about acceptance, they're all about no labels, they're all about all of that. But, like I said, as soon as you step in, you have to figure out are you a twink, are you a bear, are you an otter, are you somewhere in between? There's a million of these like there's charts.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 21:56

I had to look them up. Willie had to show them to me. What's an?

Dr Teralyn Sell: 22:00

otter. I've heard of bear and twink, but I don't know what an otter is. Oh, the pictures.

Speaker 4: 22:04

Oh yes, there's charts. They're an otter and, depending on what chart you look at, it is somebody that is Wait.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 22:13

How would someone know to find these charts? How do you?

Speaker 4: 22:16

Google it If you just type up.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 22:18

Would somebody tell you the grand poobah of the thing? Would they come down and be like here's your chart, or what? Or is this just something, because you're a guy coming from a tiny little town? How do you know? This is bizarre to me. I don't know.

Speaker 4: 22:33

There is not this big thing or this person that you go to and they're like you are the one.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 22:38

Right.

Speaker 4: 22:41

You have to figure it out and as you're figuring it out, what's so shitty is like. People will be like I don't think you're that, I don't think you're that, and I'm like, okay, like, well, what do you think I am? So then it gets put up to other people again yeah, y'all. So other people will be like, well, he has less body hair, but he has like rolls towards the bottom. So he's not this, he's not that, I don't know.

Speaker 4: 23:08

You're kind of just odd and I'm like, okay, cool, great. So I don't technically fit into one or another category. I like I'm an odd one, like if you look at pictures, my body type, and like where I have hair, because it's a big thing, I don't fit into one. So I always feel like I either tell somebody one thing like I'm hey, like I'm an otter, which is sorry, classifying an otter generally, an otter is somebody that has a little chest hair and is somebody that is bigger, not a big burly bear, um, but somebody that is bigger. It's like in between a bear and a twink, okay, um. So I don't technically fit into that category because my body like size doesn't match. But I'm not a bear because I'm not super big and muscular and hairy and I am nowhere near a twink level. So people like there's like some ideas.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 24:09

I've seen your photos, willie. No, just kidding, I'm kidding.

Speaker 4: 24:12

I know you have but like, yeah, so like, but like coming into the community. I'm like, what the hell is this like? There's like so many different things. And then like the other thing that like I don't understand is the hookup culture for like the hanky code.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 24:30

Oh, this All right. So, willie, you're going to have to describe the hanky code and when I learned this right, because here I'm on the side trying to just be a really proud fucking ally, right? I'm like I need to understand this a little more. This blew my mind. Talk about sticking people and pigeonholing people into a box, right Explain the. Yankee code.

Speaker 4: 24:52

Yeah, okay. So first of all, this is what it looks like for all of you guys.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 24:56

You can see, you got to go to YouTube.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 24:57

Just go to YouTube, there's about 96 colors on a graph.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 25:00

Like okay, I'm so confused because I said I know nothing about any of this and I really, really, really, really now know nothing. Is this, um, are these things like I don't know how else to say like universal truths that you have to subscribe to, or that's like.

Speaker 4: 25:17

What is that? Yeah, so the hanky Code was originally like, created for like in like the 80s and 90s, where like hookup culture for gays was like, very like.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 25:30

Studio 54, that's what I'm thinking about.

Speaker 4: 25:32

Yeah, studio 54. So it was created for that, for other gays, to identify other gays or people in the community or people in the community. But since then, it's like we no longer need that per se. There's some situations where you go and like you're like, okay, like who's flagging this color? That's what it's called and like you can tell, like, oh, that guy is. That guy has a wife and kids, but his handkerchief is saying this Hmm, interesting. So there's still things like that that happen, but we don't need it really anymore because it's so open and nobody cares. Uh, but that's what it was originally created for. Now, aligning yourself with these things, it's so crazy, like it. But generally, yes, like when you enter the community, they'll be like, okay, what's your color? You don't know your color. Here's this god-awful long list of things that also don't really make sense and it's very confusing. So, for instance, so light blue is wants head.

Speaker 4: 26:42

Yeah, right, like everybody knows that or wants it right and then, uh, like, like red likes to get fisted. But if you wear your handkerchief on a different side? So if you wear it on the right side, it loves to get fisted, and then on the left side. If you wear it on the right side, it loves to get fisted, and then on the left side. If you wear it on the left side, you're the fister.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 27:09

Yeah, oh, like, yeah, right. So this, this idea, this idea, I think, is like the premise of some of the gaslighting. Yeah of the gaslighting that you're talking about. We, as a cohesive community, we preach acceptance, open arms, nonjudgmental, like loving whoever anybody is and how you show up right. And yet that is not the practice, actually, it's not the policy, the procedure, it's not.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 27:49

Why do you think there's such a focus within the community, a focus on what you like to do sexually so much? Because I'm just kind of thinking about, like all those things I suppose, like if I were involved in hookup culture. You know that I'd want people to know, but I feel like those are things that you know require a certain amount of trust and intimacy with partnership. You know that I'm not just gonna be like, hey, these are the things I like. Like this is like an overtime for me. This is my experience, right. So I'm just kind of a little shocked about the, dare I say, openness, like extreme openness of sexual preference, down to the minutia, yeah Right, like yes, it's crazy, I mean I'm I mean, as I put it my thing.

Speaker 4: 28:45

I'm a very open book, um, and I feel like most of us are like in the community there. It's hard to pinpoint like one thing that I think like it stems off of, but I think in like movies and TV, when you see a gay person, it's like they're it's like so overdone and like they're so sexualized and anything like it could be like the twink person and they're like looking all femme and like being like super high pitched and all that like it's so overdone. Or like when you see like let's look at mean girls, like okay, like let's be real, he like his character in the way that he is created.

Willy Millard: 29:29

yep it's a caricature.

Speaker 4: 29:31

Yes, and it's so. That's what I think really hurts the community in that fact. But like also, some people use that in the community to their advantage, like they'll be like I'm just this person right, like you can't like hate on me, but I can hate on you.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 29:47

Yes.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 29:48

Yes.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 29:49

And I want to touch on that, willie, because this is something that like as a not gay individual, ok, but as a ally. Ok, the word ally I'm worried about, Like I'm I well, I struggle with it because and I've shared this openly with Willie- I feel like it's virtue signaling at some point Like you're.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 30:10

just, it's hard.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 30:12

Not you, Jen.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 30:13

Not you, jen particularly but I mean, like in you know Jen's over here virtual signaling, signaling I'm over here, being oblivious and stupid. Like I don't even know what's going on.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 30:23

I'm always like well God what the I've always in my brain, like when I do things, Willie, and we go places, and it's always like I don't know what to do or what to say, because it's almost as if just by trying to be an ally to support you, I'm doing it wrong, Like I'm being told by others I'm doing it wrong.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 30:45

I don't know. I've seen you in hot pants, Jen. I don't know how wrong that is.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 30:49

I don't know what to do with my hands, I open my mouth to try to talk to somebody and it's like a huge turnoff and I'm just like, okay, I'm just here trying to support. So it's like I can, I feel I can, I can validate where you sit within that community and, yes, we're in very different positions. But this idea of like. So I'm trying to do this but I'm doing it wrong. I'm trying to be part of this gay community but I'm not fitting into the boxes.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 31:15

That feels like Willie's journey that feels like his journey.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 31:20

Of course, I'm not in your shoes, but I'm just like.

Speaker 4: 31:22

So I'm supporting wrong, and that's the thing.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 31:27

Am I explaining this the right way, Willie? No, you're 100%, 100%.

Speaker 4: 31:31

You're doing the.

Speaker 4: 31:34

I don't do my hands willy, I got it but yeah, like that is it's so true, because there is no like there's not that one person or like this one piece of scripture that is like correct, right, like that everybody like holds, like this is like the pinnacle thing. There's not that. There is like the hanky code and like all, like the body types and all that, like there's that general idea. But you, I mean, if you just google it, there's 30 different versions of everything, so you never know what's right or wrong you're just go with like what you think is right, until you're told you're very wrong because somebody else has a stronger opinion than you.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 32:20

Or they're willing to share that strong opinion with you. You know I was just now. I'm personalizing this because I'm like you know as a young girl that grew up with body image problems and struggling with weight my whole life. If then suddenly being ostracized in that space and then suddenly going into this space thinking you're going to be welcome with open arms, and now my body's being judged even on different judgment goalpost levels, like now, I understand the mental health problems that can be part of it. It's not just struggling with identity. It's struggling now with fitting in again and everything that comes along with it as a person. That's fascinating. I'm like my mind is blown right now. I'm sorry.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 33:04

I got to bring in. Oh OK, Go ahead, Willie.

Speaker 4: 33:08

And then I got to bring something in that you said OK, so like piggybacking off of what you said is it's like you start from ground zero. So like in the straight community, let's just call it that. There's probably some politically correct thing to say. But fuck it. In the straight community, like you build up this like hell. Yeah, this is who I am. I'm gonna tell everyone I'm like a 10 now. Like I've climbed this fucking ladder. I've told everyone my truth. They either love me or hate me and I don't care. And now you walk into like the alphabet mafia and then they're like wrong and then you start from ground zero, like you literally have to rebuild yourself off of what they now say is correct.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 33:50

Identity, identity has to change right.

Speaker 4: 33:53

Yes, again, and being such a little kid in this community, like first starting off, you could tell me to probably like eat a crayon and I would do it.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 34:04

Just to belong.

Speaker 4: 34:05

Yeah, just to belong. And unfortunately, like I'm a very big people pleaser and throughout my life that has been a constant struggle with the community, is like I will do anything just to have like a really cool, awesome friend group that I can say like you know, it's like sex in the city, like here are my gay friends, we're gonna get martinis.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 34:22

yeah but I don't have that because I like and I don't even like martinis, by the way, like, but I'm gonna drink them because everybody else is drinking them, and that's what I should do.

Speaker 4: 34:32

I do. I will say that I like a lemon drop. Martini, I can't be like that. I know I'm not so big at all, but I know when people watch this they'll be like that bitch is lying. It'll go all over. It'll go all over. They'll be like he drinks lemon drops. You're literally my bachelor trip, jen. You know how many lemon drops I had.

Willy Millard: 34:51

I was there. I was there. I was there. I was definitely there. That bitch is lying. I was the oldest one there taking care of everyone going. This is fascinating, I'm doing everything wrong, but it's fine. Right, okay.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 35:04

So, Willie, you, when you're talking about these judgments that happen. I want you to talk about this the box that you are put in by the industry that you work in as well, and this idea of, like Willie the gay stylist.

Willy Millard: 35:20

Yeah.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 35:21

And how that is like completely opposite of what you're wanting to speak for itself, which is who you are in your work, right? Can you talk about that?

Speaker 4: 35:29

Yeah, so there's been. So I'm, I'm, I'm a hairstylist, everyone Bam.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 35:37

See he's fantastic. He does good work actually.

Speaker 4: 35:40

Thank you that's like the whole point.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 35:42

I see your work every week on the show. I see the work every week on the show. I know. When she just got back from getting her hair done, I can tell like yeah so that's like I mean that right there, that's what I want.

Speaker 4: 35:56

Like there was no indication of like he sucks penis, but he does my hair yeah yes, that doesn't come up. But the world is so fascinated by gays, right like they're like oh my god, they're like this weird thing. So if we say this gay plus their business title, they're automatically drawn to that. But also what happens is then we're pigeonholed. It's the same with like artists who are gay or queer get put into like the best gay artist of the year. It's not the best artist artist yeah artist, so artist.

Speaker 4: 36:30

So being stuck and told like this needs to be like who you are at work and this is going to help promote you. I worked for a corporation for a long time and I was like they were like use that to your advantage. And at the time I was like, okay, fuck it, let's do it. But then learning that I would say 80% of some of the people that would come in it was just because I was loud, it was just because I was gay, it's just because I'm a gay man it was because of the persona that you created around that again the caricature, if you will, of who you, who you are or who you're supposed to be Supposed to be Versus the work that you did yeah.

Speaker 4: 37:17

And that's something that I, for a long time, I was like this doesn't feel right, like this isn't me. But if this is what they want, if this is what the industry is saying, that needs to happen to be successful. And that's what really got in my head is like what if I just say, like one day, as a joke, like I'm straight, like would I lose everyone? Like, would I lose all this like clientele that I built up just because, like who I sleep with? And that's when I knew that I needed to make a change. That's when I was like I need to just be who I am.

Speaker 4: 37:53

I mean, I am not the poster child for being gay at all. I like some of my favorite things include mudding, rock climbing. Some of these things aren't like what you consider like gay, like I'm not sitting at a fashion design store. I'm like, ooh, this fabric and that fabric, the fuck. No, they all look the same to me. Like I do things I'm currently in my craft room, but like I like that's not me. So I was sick of trying to do that for people and in the industry, that's what they wanted.

Speaker 4: 38:25

And there has been multiple times where, like now, leaving the corporate dynamic. Like trying to just like show like my work and stuff. Everybody's like, oh, you're the gay stylist. Like trying to just like show like my work and stuff. Everybody's like, oh, you're the gay stylist, right, you're Willie. And I'm like I'm Willie, yes, the stylist, but that is like where I've now, I'm now stuck, which isn't an awful thing to say because, like, I built everything up and the people that have stayed with me like are seeing who I am and I've. I mean not to brag or anything, but I'm going to do it. I was just in a couple of magazines all the way in Chicago.

Willy Millard: 39:01

Yeah, you were.

Speaker 4: 39:02

Yeah, for my hair, not for me being a gay stylist yeah. Like for me and what I'm doing. So like the possibilities are out there, I just need to get towards it. But yeah, being pigeonholed it sucks.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 39:21

Why do we do that Like? This is the conversation that I I really don't understand. Because nobody comes to me, because I'm a straight therapist, nobody goes oh, she's a really good straight therapist, by the way.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 39:33

Like nobody says that you know it's only when you pull out something that is I'm gonna just say it trending, I don't know like I, yeah, yeah I feel like some of this language is trending language and you know I I have visceral reactions to some of it too, even even like Jen saying ally, because I'm like and this is just me again, there's probably a level of ignorance here being like as an ally. I feel like I'm just a good person. Why is being a good person to another person just not enough that we have to put more labels on how I interact with you or what my role is with you, right Like, why? You know Jen's your sister, she's she's not your ally, she's your supporter because she's your sister, right Like, and and you are her like her biggest fan when it comes to the podcast too. So anyway, so there's that, right. But you don't say I'm Jen's straight, you know she's straight. So she's got an ally in me because I'm not like you're like, I just I just think she's cool and I like to support her, right Like, I don't, I I'm, and I understand on certain levels where that comes from, because there was a lot of hate, and there probably still is, in these communities and some pockets of the United States and things like that.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 40:53

I get that from a fundamental level, but I also feel very pushed into some of these spaces to call myself certain things or not, or align in certain ways or not. And if I don't, I don't have the right voice either, and so that's why, you know, I'm just going to be fair. That's why I'm just going to be fair. I've kind of stayed away from the intricacies of the community, right, because I just don't even know, like Jen said, what am I going to say that's going to be wrong, what am I going to say or do that's going to be viewed as hateful or microaggressions or all these things. So I don't even know where to be either when it comes to this, and so I just sit back and go listen. I'm in my mid fifties and I'm just going to be a good person, like I'm just going to be who I've been this whole time, right, like I. I honestly I don't care on that level, like what your color is on a chart.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 41:52

Right, I don't, unless it's your hair color like on a chart or what color. I don't look at race, color, creed, sexuality, it doesn't matter, I don't look at it.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 41:59

But then people will be mad about that. If I say that too, like I, it's not that I don't care about it on a fundamental level, it's like I just don't care about it when it comes to my relationship with you, right, like, these are things that don't impact me. To know who, and you know if you like to fist and if you're the fister or the fistee, like that, I don't really want to know that information. To be fair, like just because you probably wouldn't want to know that information for me either, right? Like, hey, my name is Dr Carolyn, and do you like to fist or not? I'm like, well, I'm not sure what I would do if somebody said that and, by the way, I'm going on a rant right now because, yeah, you are.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 42:37

I don't know where she's going with this.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 42:39

Have you guys heard of the villages? Do you know the villages? Have you heard of the villages? The old people, and they wear the. They don't wear, but they hang the little scrunchie sponges on their golf carts. That's what this feels like to me, only on the elderly level.

Willy Millard: 42:56

You have to learn a whole new code when you get old and when you decide to come out, these are the codes that we learn and I'm just confused.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 43:02

It goes back to the labeling. There's a ton of labeling, and I think that's how we wrap this in right Everything's got a label. And Willie that's what you're describing. In this community is everything's labeled and you need to fit into these labels.

Speaker 4: 43:18

You do the people that support you all the above right and it's so hard because, like I said, there is not like, the one thing that everybody agrees on, like is this like you will fit into, like, like the lines of these boxes are so like jello, which is great and bad. Because when you're trying to figure out like, where will fit into? Like, like the lines of these boxes are so like jello, which is great and bad. Because when you're trying to figure out like, where you fit in, and they're like I don't know, I feel this, like this person feels this, I feel this way. So then you're all confused and, with that being said, then people get angry. Like in this community, like if you don't like, if you don't do what they want, or if you don't like if you don't do what they want or if you don't fit into what they want, you find yourself getting into arguments, you find yourself getting, like pushed away from the community. The labels have drawn lines between people has like, I've seen it like personally, have had it happen just because of like some stupid thing, but like everybody's so focused on that because they truly think that everyone in the community, in the in the community oh jesus, oh god, we're gonna call that the computity I like

Speaker 4: 44:23

that better yeah in the community like they don't know better. Like there is. Like nobody has like strived to make like this big change among all, like the hookup culture, among just like the community to like make it like. Why the fuck do we have this like? Does anybody else notice that like we were getting ostracized like when we were part of the straight community, but now we're getting ostracized when we're in the gay community too and the alphabet mafia like.

Speaker 4: 44:55

That's why I call it that, because it literally, if you don't fit in, you will never fit in. You can try your best to fit in and you'll find those people that don't fit in with you. But like in a general sense, like if you don't fit in, if you're not what they want, they, they don't want you and they're very vocal about it too. Like oh, my God, I can't tell you how many times I've like been in a situation where we have a disagreement and it's like stupidest thing ever it could be.

Speaker 4: 45:24

Like one of the times I had somebody I was trying to like explain like going back to the hanky code we were talking about like how there were so many different colors and like this one and this one didn't make sense to me and they're like what do you mean? You don't understand this, how do you not like? And it just like escalated from zero to ten in like two seconds and I was like I just I mean I don't understand it and opposed to like trying to explain it to me. They literally started yelling at me in a crowded bar and I'm like I was trying to like just make a friend, I was trying to be kind, I I saw you know what I mean. Like I saw that you were flagging a color. Let me talk to you yeah but that's what?

Dr Teralyn Sell: 46:08

that's what jen was saying like she feels like she can't do it right, right, she can't be an ally, right. And you're saying I can't even be in the community in the correct way. And then there's somebody like me who's just being dumb and I'm like I have no idea what any of this means. Can somebody explain? So thank you for explaining, because I have a feeling if I asked somebody else in the bar, that I would get yelled at for just not knowing Right, for just being too naive and not knowing, as if I would even know how, or that I was supposed to Google search this before I walked into this facility, you know, or whatever, like I it's, it's really.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 46:42

It's very fascinating to me and I'm wondering do you and of course this is just your experience and this is our chatter around your experience? So not everybody's experience is going to be the same way. Some might have very validating experiences. I don't know. Do you see it being any different between a male in this community and a female in the community? Do you think this type of judgment is different on gender lines, or yeah?

Speaker 4: 47:07

Yes, definitely. I would say like being a male in this community. It's very hostile, it's very, it's very much like what I described being a female.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 47:17

It's like masculinity. It sounds like.

Speaker 4: 47:22

Yes, I have like some really close friends who are lesbians and bi and all that and they, their experience is like they have the same like traits and the same kind of experiences, but it's a lot more understanding would be the best word for it. It's a lot more understanding when it comes to that side and I don't understand why that they are way more understanding and they're. One of my friends was telling me once when she was just describing a situation like very similar to mine, like they had a conversation about it but like when I almost had the identical conversation, it like blew up. So for me I don't understand why it's that way, but also it's so. It's so crazy because I feel like also like the gays, just the gays like even in our own community we are the mean girls of the community. We are like we can be the most nastiest people in the entire world, but that's like what people expect from us sometimes and it's really hard because we can be awful to people in our community and that's fine.

Speaker 4: 48:37

I don't agree with that. I have seen multiple like gays say awful things about like some trans people, some like some bi people like and I just sit there and I'm like what in the world is going on, like they are part of our community that we're building and it's supposed to be this like pinnacle thing, but yet you are literally saying this to the people I'm with right now about what? No, like it's so like two-faced, it's not even funny. Yeah, yeah, it's just awful sometimes. So my curious part about this not to cut you, yeah, yeah, it's just awful sometimes so and yet.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 49:16

So that my curious part about this not to cut you off, jen, but you still go into the community though yeah why, is that like what? Why is I'm?

Speaker 4: 49:23

I'm having trouble I'm having some trouble here like okay, so it's like the definition of insanity okay all right, all right like for because for me, like I want to like have close friends like that are in the community. I have a couple that like are great and they live in the bigger city. So for me, like I am like the hick gay, so I'm like way out here, there's another box for you.

Speaker 4: 49:53

One more box but like there it is, like put that around me, but like that's me. So for me I want, because I think I mean it's. I'm hoping that one day, but if I can keep like going into the community and kind of disrupting it and making more people see something that's not right, maybe it will change. Now, has that got me into a lot of trouble? Yes, made me feel very uncomfortable. Yes, but I keep doing it because every once in a while I'll find somebody in the community that's just like me. That's like I feel like I'm the only person that's seen this, but they're doing the exact same thing. They're going in, hopefully to find like people that understand them, people that get them, people that are trying to help, and like when like that happens, it's amazing. I I mean, I go to Pride every year in Milwaukee Great, I go to big events all the time. It's like I love who I am and I love the people that I'm usually with, which means my sister.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 51:04

You're doing brother-sister code stuff right now. Now I feel so left out all right you can come next year come hang out, okay, all right, yeah, I would love to try. That's something I've never done before, so actually I might take you up on that I don't know about the hot pants.

Speaker 4: 51:20

So I'm not sure that would be my jam, but we have to get you dressed in some hot pants sure, yes, um, but yeah like you, go to these big things and like you just like I'm just there to be me and hopefully find people that are like being themselves and not worried about everybody else, or not worried about like trying to figure out, like where the fuck they fit in, because most of the time, like you don't need to fit in, but that's why I keep going back is like I'm hoping to like disrupt enough to the point where, like, other people start getting curious.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 51:50

I love that. Now I know why you're sick there it is.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 51:52

Do you see that he just used the word disrupt and the word curious?

Dr Teralyn Sell: 51:56

I'm ready for deep throat and the truth too, two words. Seriously like all the things. Yep, you got it.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 52:01

You got it Really as we as we wrap up here. Is there anything that you haven't shared yet, or any or kind of any final messages for people that are listening that you want people to know?

Speaker 4: 52:14

Oh, that's so many things, but the main thing is to just remember to live who you want to live and be like you are you. Nobody else is the fucking like. You're the fucking shit. We're our own fucking shit. We're awesome. So just remember to always be that. Just be you. In the moment. It's really hard because I'm a people pleaser and I do it too, but at the end of the day, if you're people pleasing so much to the point you don't know who you are when you look in the mirror, that's a problem. That's to the point where you really need to look at like yourself and see past everything else, because at the end of the day, you have to live with yourself and you have to live with your own truth about who you are. So never forget that.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 53:01

I love it.

Willy Millard: 53:02

I love it. It's so great I can't even do the ending. I'm getting tired. I love it.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 53:05

I love it. It's so great I can't even do the ending. Her brother, yes, all the things, all the things.

Willy Millard: 53:09

You got to wrap it up, Terry. I can't do it right now.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 53:12

Yeah, but I have one more question too. My question is for, for the listeners who aren't part of the community but want to learn about it or be more of that word ally, like what's what? Uh, what information would you give them?

Speaker 4: 53:34

be yourself around people. Don't audit like I, like I don't want you going up to somebody. Be like hey, you look gay, let's talk. No, no, no, like, don't like purposely seek that out, because that's what sets people off. Like you know what I mean. Just be yourself and like, when willing to talk to somebody, like, let them take the lead, don't you don't want to make a fool out of yourself, right? Because you're just trying to be yourself.

Speaker 4: 54:01

Let, most of the time, the gay person take the lead and see where it goes and just be who you are. Ask questions and be honest with them. But also, at the end of the day, if you don't feel comfortable in the situation, leave Like you're not as an ally. You don't have to support everything that happens, because we're humans and we all have different points of view, and you don't have to get along with every single person in the community. Right, and I think a lot of allies are like I need to support everything.

Speaker 4: 54:33

And reality is, if you just support what you believe in, that's all that we ask, because then you're being true to yourself, just like we're trying to be true to ourselves. So just support what you believe in and just you know, go with the flow. There's plenty of good online resources for if you're looking for like I don't want to say like startup conversations, but if you're looking for like spaces, like to have like, like conversations, like platforms, like, there's plenty of good like group chat, group chats, oh God, good things on like, oh shit, oh shit but like there's plenty of good things like that.

Speaker 4: 55:11

Um, there's a lot of like one of rest in peace like this is it? The bar in milwaukee was one of like the best like queer spaces in the world, um, because everyone there was so nice, uh. But there's spaces like that that you can go to as an ally and not worry that you're going to be like singled out, but like honestly, just believe in what you believe in and like don't try to please us, like come to us with your heart hanging out. Most of the time we'll do the same, but, yeah, just just be you.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 55:45

Bring back humanity. All right, love it.

Willy Millard: 55:48

Yes.

Dr Teralyn Sell: 55:49

All right, if you've hung out with us this far. This is the gaslit truth podcast. Please like, follow, share, subscribe and send us your gaslit truth at the gaslit truth podcast at gmailcom.

Jenn Millard Schmitz: 56:01

Yeah, thanks for coming on, willie.

Speaker 4: 56:03

Of course, anytime, anytime.