Antidepressants Increase Violent Behaviors with Forensic Psychologist Dr Toby Watson

Most headlines shrug and say, “we may never know why.” We refuse that answer. With clinical psychologist Dr. Toby Watson, we examine the uncomfortable pattern linking widely prescribed psychiatric medications to spikes in suicidality, aggression, and even homicidal ideation—especially when starting, stopping, or changing doses. The data trail is stark: a small cluster of antidepressants, anxiolytics, sedatives, and stimulants accounts for the vast majority of severe violent reports, while black box warnings arrived years late and adverse events were often buried or recoded in trials.

We talk plainly about informed consent—what patients are told, what they aren’t, and how medication guides can change the conversation. Toby breaks down how placebo frequently explains perceived benefits on depression scales, how “spellbinding” dulls insight and critical thought, and why therapy falters when the mind is numbed. We unpack stimulant‑induced mania misdiagnosed as “new bipolar,” the non‑linear reality of withdrawal, and the structural brain changes that make quick tapers a recipe for harm. Along the way, we confront the system incentives—

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💊 Ready to Deprescribe Your Psych Meds?

Psych meds have harmed us—and we’re not just survivors, we’re deeply educated in psychopharmacology, psychology, and nutrition. As hosts of The Gaslit Truth Podcast, we guide people safely off psychiatric medications with strategies grounded in science and brain health

🔥 You’ve been harmed. You’ve been dismissed. It’s time to take your brain back—with guidance from people who’ve been there and know their stuff.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Host CTA<br>
• 0:41 Introducing Dr. Toby Watson’s Background<br>
• 2:13 Core Claim: Psych Meds And Violence<br>
• 4:04 Mexico Testimony And Global Data<br>
• 6:45 The 31 Drugs Driving Most Violence Reports<br>
• 9:20 Suicide Risk In Clinical Trials And Vets Data<br>
• 12:35 Why The Risks Stay Hidden<br>
• 15:14 Placebo Power And Publication Bias<br>
• 18:02 Spellbinding And Blunted Critical Thinking<br>
• 20:05 Court Cases Linking Meds To Violence<br>
• 22:00 Informed Consent And Medication Guides<br>
• 24:09 Stimulants, Mania, And Misdiagnosis<br>
• 26:04 Withdrawal, Half-Life, And Brain Changes<br>
• 28:53 Advertising, Belief Formation, And Media Incentives<br>
• 31:52 Deprescribing Philosophy And Titration Strategy<br>
• 34:49 How SSRIs Alter Neurochemistry Over Time<br>
• 37:54 Consistency, Forced Treatment, And Long-Term Outcomes<br>
• 41:35 Non-Drug Recovery And Program Results<br>
• 44:38 School Behavior, Locus Of Control, And Kids On Meds<br>
• 47:54 Human Connection Versus Chemical Control<br>
• 51:30 Restraint Dilemmas And Systemic Tradeoffs<br>
• 54:30 Therapy While Intoxicated And State-Dependent Learning<br>
• 58:10 Practical Guidance, Resources, And Closing CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Every time the headline says, we may never know why. The truth is hiding in plain sight. Psych drugs and violence aren't strangers, they're old friends. We are your whistleblowing shrinks, Dr. Terra Lynn and therapist Jen. And this is the Gaslet Truth Podcast. Before we crack this wide open, hit like, smash, subscribe. And if you're on YouTube, ring that bell so you don't miss a thing. And just remember, guys, Dr.

SPEAKER_00: 0:25

Terry and I are deprescribers. So we help people get off psychiatric medication safely for the brain and for the body. So if you're thinking about doing that, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. We can assist you with that. Send us an email at thegaslitruthpodcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_01: 0:41

Dr. Toby Watson Psy D is a clinical psychologist, former chief supervising psychologist for the Wisconsin Department of Corrections, and past Executive Director of the International Society for Ethical Psychology and Psychiatry. He trained at one of the nation's only psychiatric medication-free day treatment programs and has testified before the FDA, the Congress and Senate of Mexico, and U.S. courts on the risks of psychiatric drugs, ECT, and forced treatment. Featured on national television radio, Dr. Watson is known internationally for championing informed consent and advancing safe non-drug approaches to mental health. Welcome to the show, Toby.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24

Look at that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29

Yeah, that was a lot. And I've said it before that uh, you know, I can't be that old to have done all those things, but I really am. And I'm just, you know, I'm old.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40

We'll say wise. Now I'm I'm not old. I'm just wise now. So I've met some good mentors. I'll I'll say that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:48

I've I've met some amazing people that have uh helped me in my uh in my path and my journey.

SPEAKER_00: 1:53

Well, we've got to talk about something that people don't want to talk too much about. Okay. And it's this idea that psychiatric medication can actually cause violent behavior. And that's something you're an expert in. So we're gonna open the floor up, Toby. Can you start to tell us a little bit about how you discovered this and how you got to that truth? Sure.

SPEAKER_03: 2:14

How I discovered it was a slow process. I originally was a neuropsych student, and that's what I was going into out in California. And I worked at this nonprofit or this one clinic that worked with people without the use of psychotropic medications, which to me had seemed unheard of because I was indoctrinated into the idea that if you have a mental illness, especially a severe mental illness, you have to use psychotropic meds, you know, in order to work with that, often lifelong. And they slowly were getting people off medication. And I was like, wait a minute, that you know, doesn't hold, you know, what's going on. So I started attending some different conferences, and lo and behold, I started learning and becoming an expert in research. I was trained as a scientist practitioner. So my expertise is in reading research and then making it applicable to the clinical practice, which is why I go to court a fair amount of time and why, you know, certain people hire me and you know present it at the FDA in other countries. So I stumbled upon it. I didn't want to take on this task. And so, you know, I donate almost all my time, you know, doing this type of work as a doctor.

SPEAKER_02: 3:19

I have other businesses and, you know, ventures that I do that allows me to live, you know, well.

SPEAKER_03: 3:24

And so I'm often able to speak out against my own field, which is especially sacrilegious, right? You know, to speak out against my own field and beat up psychiatrists and psychiatrists and psychologists and drug companies. But it's the right thing to do because, you know, in our in our field, unfortunately, there's very few of us that are willing to put our, you know, credentials and our training and everything on the line to speak out against us. So that's how it all kind of came about.

SPEAKER_00: 3:51

Yeah. Okay. So you've got, you've been to some other countries and you've done a lot of PR and you have spoken openly about this. In your bio, we were talking about when you were in Mexico. Tell us a little bit about why you went there.

SPEAKER_03: 4:06

Yeah, there was a congresswoman that invited me, so they, you know, paid the bill and flew me down. They had received a lot of money, earmarks for children's mental health. And what they wanted to know was, hey, why in America are there so many problems with children's mental health? Because they were able to see the statistics and see the data that we had the world's vast majority of shootings, you know, child shootings at schools, and that we were using the vast majority of psychotropic medication, you know, compared to all the other developed countries in the world. But yet, like UNICEF and other studies showed that our children's mental health was like second to last out of these developing countries. So we're using the vast majority of resources and getting some of the worst outcomes. And they didn't want to like do the same thing that we were doing, basically. So I pulled the data and went down there and gave a lecture first, I think it was to the Congress and then later to the Senate, or maybe it was reversed. And the data was, you know, not overly surprising because I've done this for about, you know, well, now coming up on 30 years, 25, 30 years. What we found was, you know, there's a study by Glenn and Glenn Mullen and Moore back in 2010. And what they said is, hey, if we just look at the roughly a little over 4,000 medications that are on, you know, FDA approved, are there a certain number of medications that have more violence reported because of the medication than other ones? And this is where somebody goes on a med, there's no history of violence, they take the medication, and then all of a sudden, a few days later, day later, weeks later, they become violent and they start to have these problems and they go back to the doc and say, Doc, this stuff's making me go crazy. And the doc says, Oh, okay, let's go off, and they take it off, and then it goes away. It's called like an ABA design. Well, they're supposed to report that to the FDA and say, hey, we've had a severe adverse reaction to this, and there's a reporting system to do that. We know that only about 1%, if that even get reported. So what they did is they looked at all these medications over a very short period of time and they identified out of these 4,000 meds, it was about 450 roughly medications that accounted for all the all the violence. And out of that 400 and some meds, they dwindled down and said, Oh my God, almost 70% are just 31 medications. And of the 31 medications, guess what they were? The antidepressants, the anti-anxiety medications, you know, the and so they were accounting for 70% of all the acts of violence. We're talking about hundreds of acts of homicide, you know, violence, you know, hitting people and doing things like not including, again, the thousands and thousands of suicides, which is I would say violent also because it's a violence against yourself. So I started going through more of those, that data and research and was able to find and you know, see even from the drug company clinical trials, that if you take like Prozac, you've got a 200-fold plus 300-fold increase to increase suicide. So again, take a thousand depressed people, divide them in half, randomly assign them, right? And then we'll see in the 500 year that are taking a placebo, it gives you maybe a little tummy ache or just whatever, but there's no active ingredient. And you'll see, let's say, 10 suicides over here. Well, in the drug group, you're gonna see that you're gonna end up having maybe, you know, 30 suicides. And if you're taking Paxil, it might be as high as like six or 70, you know, I'm sorry, 60 to 70 people. So all of the medications across the board are increasing suicide, not decreasing suicide. And yet often they are prescribed, you know, when someone's suicidal. But they're not decreasing, they're increasing. Bernie Sanders actually, you know, took a look at this and you know, give a shout out to him for doing this. When we had 22 vets a day killing themselves, and that was kind of in the news a number of years ago. They the Committee on Veterans Health, you know, Committee of Uh Mental Health looked at this. I flew out there, again, presented this data on for the veterans with a group of people as well. And uh, in fact, Bob Whittaker's uh work was part of that, showing that, you know, as you increase the dosing of these types of medication, you get the direct, the direct correlational relationship, and I would say causal relationship though, with the increase in suicides. So it's just a statistical absolute certainty. If you have a certain number of people taking antidepressants, you're gonna get a certain number of people committing suicide and trying to commit suicide. If you increase the number, you know, of people taking it, well, then you're gonna increase the number of people doing it. And that's what we have happening here in America.

SPEAKER_01: 8:30

From a common sense perspective, I've I've thought about this a lot. Like we have so many more people prescribed this, and yet our mental health is still at epidemic proportions, as well as suicide risks and suicidality increasing, increasing, increasing despite so many people being on medications. Like if you just take a step back, that doesn't even make sense. There's no logical sense to be made in that idea that we that meds are helping, right? It because people so many people are on them and it's making matters worse, in my opinion, just from this look back or just looking at it. So I I find that to be a very fascinating conversation anyway. Why do you think that this suicidality and aggression is it seems to be kind of a buried statistic, right? Like we don't, we don't highlight, I've never read this before. This I don't I can I just paragraph. I want this is on this is important, this is on his website. So one of the 31, 11 were the most widely used antidepressants. I'm sorry, I'm gonna back up. The researchers identified 484 drugs causing 780,169 severe acts of violence. However, 31 drugs accounted for 79% of those cases. 11 were the most widely used antidepressants, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxel, your standard fare antidepressants that people are given. Six were sleep aids and anti-anxiety drugs, Valium, et cetera. And three were the common stimulants given to children for ADHD, including Ritalin, et cetera. Over 67% of the roughly 400 homicides, over 400 assaults, 223 cases of other violence and abuse, and the nearly 900 reports of homicidal ideation where the patient felt they wanted to kill, were all linked to starting a psychiatric medication. Why is that not standard information in a doctor's office, especially when we're looking at pediatric population? I don't understand why that is so buried. I don't get it. This was 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_00: 10:44

This study is 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_01: 10:47

Yeah. So it's more than that now.

SPEAKER_03: 10:49

Yeah. The simple answer is this there are billions and billions and billions of dollars, you know, being made by selling these drugs and selling this idea that it's a medical condition, that you've got to talk to your doctor, talk to your doctor, talk to your doctor, and your doctor will prescribe it. And it's an external locus of control, meaning that it's outside of you. It's got nothing to do with your history, nothing to do with your background, nothing to do with trauma or society. It's just that, you know, faulty, unfortunate brain or chemical imbalance, which again is an absolute lie. And again, I've been saying this for 30 years and I've never been sued, nobody's ever gonna discredit it. 75, 80 percent of Americans believe that mental illness is due to a chemical imbalance. Yeah. And actually, Thomas Insul, mind you, back the National Institute of Mental Health, okay? That's the largest uh research group in the world here, you know, right here in America. Thomas Insul was the director of that. He came out even years back, decades ago now, and said nobody really believed in academic research in the chemical imbalance theory. It was just a theory. I'm like, you are such a liar. It's like everybody in that little Zolof ball that used to bounce and say, you know, oh, I remember that. Yeah. Well, this is why, because you know, people believe in it like it's you know, like I call it lore. Space. It's lore space-based, it's no research. And it's all about just keeping this indoctrination, this idea. Now keep in mind, I should tell your audience this. People will be like, wait a minute, I know better. I take my medication, it works for me. And then when I come off of it, I feel horrible and I crash. So I need my med. Again, I hear that in court all the time. But you have to remember what's happened here. First of all, you started out way back in the day and you had some Torioshi going on, whatever it might have been. You went on a medication. We know that placebo effect is massive in SSRIs. It's been proven over and over and over and over again. David Antanuccio, the premier researcher in uh placebo studies, has replicated this over and over. We know that 80 to 90 percent of any effect is placebo, meaning that if I take a thousand depressed people, randomly assign them to the two groups, put them on whatever the you know, antidepressant I want, put this group on just an active sugar pill, I will see depression rates drop if I give them like a Bex depression scale or and the points are a two-point difference on like a 24-point scale, which is clinically insignificant. You will not see a difference. They will both get better. Even if you tell the person that they're taking a placebo, placebo, but tell them it's gonna work, there's still a drop. It's not clinically significant at that point, but it was still a drop. So we know that the mind over matter body interaction, you know, is profound. But the problem is that the American public doesn't hear this because one, almost all of our research that I as a doctor and anybody funds the universities is produced by drug companies. If I go up against a drug company or the funding, I won't get asked to do it again. So selection bias will just occur and eventually I just won't be publishing. Two, if you don't support a drug, let's say your research doesn't show it was helpful, you're less likely to have it published. So there's a biasing in that you only publish the data that supports what you tried to find. And all the negative results, there's no journal of negative results, and we need that. There should be. We also then have the books, the academics. I mean, it's just it's industry and then direct consumer advertising. So every possible way young children's books, even in school in classrooms, in the health department now, now they're being written, you know, by these medical drug companies saying, hey, here's what we want young people to believe. And we know this because, well, we know it to be true because it's true, but we know that that's a problem because when you get information when we're young and you believe something, it's the you can only do two things with new information. You either accommodate or you assimilate that information. So for example, we'll just use this as an example. If I think you know, Hispanic people are lazy, let's say I don't believe that, but let's just say that Hispanic people are lazy, and that's my you know racist belief. And then all of a sudden I see a Hispanic person on TV being very productive, very kind, very generous. I have two things I can do with that information. I can either A change my belief and my neurons and say, oh, maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe Hispanic people really are hardworking, maybe they're very, you know, giving and very kind and change my belief. Or two, I'm gonna say, ah, that's one in a million. Well, we know that people tend to not change their neurons. They it's much more stressful, it's much harder. So instead, we corrupt the information, and that's the accommodation or assimilation. So again, these marketing people at drug companies know this. So if we can get them to believe into our falsehood right from the start, Dr. Toby or you or a podcaster or anybody else telling something different, it'd be very hard for them to believe that. This is yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

Okay, can I slide one thing in here? Because I want to know your opinion on this. And this is just me bringing in some of the work of Breggan here for a hot second. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 16:03

Dr. Peter Breggan. Yeah. My mentors back in the day.

SPEAKER_00: 16:06

Okay. So I want to ask you a question about this. There's another layer to this, and maybe you can describe this or whether you agree with it or not. But the additional layer to this is not only changing the belief, but what's actually happening to your ability to think critically when you are taking these psychiatric medications.

SPEAKER_03: 16:27

Well, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 16:28

Like, because I I think that that's the uh an important piece that that is playing this too, because we have this bias that's occurring and how difficult it can be to change our beliefs, right? What you're just describing, right? Two point point of information, two different ways it can go. But when you're taking a psychiatric medication, the capacity for you to actually be able to think critically and hit those higher order areas of thinking in the brain is actually it's it's it's I don't know what what is the word we would put on it, Toby. What impaired? It's it's it's fucked up. Like you can't do it. Like I don't be okay, Dad. That's not the clinical term. But but you you can't. Like you have we have actually impaired our prefrontal cortex and all the different things that are happening, right? We know this. We know from brain scans what's happening to the brain. We know the amygdala is shrinking, we know gray matter is going away. This is all very real. So you put people in this space, and he has coined a term for this where you're almost stupid to what's happening. He calls it something much nicer. You're spell bonding.

SPEAKER_03: 17:29

Well, uh, Dr. Bregen called it a spellbinding. Yes, you're spell bond.

SPEAKER_00: 17:32

But can you talk to that that piece too before we start to talk more about the violence part of this then as well? Because that's actually happening when you're taking these psych meds, guys.

SPEAKER_03: 17:41

Well, right. And and that's a bit of a the indifference that you see when you know these school shooters are robotically kind of you know walking around. And we see the videos, you know, we see them doing it. And often, I shouldn't say often, but we've had reports and there's tapes of these people who, after they commit horrendous, you know, behavior, they go, you know, into you know, jail and they often won't get the meds right away. And then they start to like come back out of this, you know, fog and they're like, oh my God, what happened? Like it's kind of like, oh my God, the reality starts to kick in. And I've worked on these cases, you know, across the country. This is kind of what I do. And these people are just like, what the frick happened? And now courts are starting to recognize it. I mean, there was a case up in Canada where, again, guy killed somebody, and the court said, hey, the medication caused it. There was another case out in California. Yeah, guy came out with a meat cleaver after his wife after being married for like 40, 50 years. And the court said, Yeah, the medication, you know, part of played a role in his inability to figure out what was going on. And these are the cases where, again, you literally leave your house, you walk across, you know, your lawn to your neighbor, you chop them up, or you you shoot them, or you do something, and you just randomly walk back to your house, and that's like nothing happened. It's like, or with, you know, medications are making you go psychotic. And again, people say like, ah, that can't be true. I can tell you the most horrible, horrifying stories. And it's just again and again and again. And we're talking about, I got a case I'm working on right now where a woman literally, you know, almost beheaded her child, wrote on the walls in a psychotic state, you know, some words and stuff. And it wasn't until that she kind of came out of this, you know, a couple months later, like in a psychiatric forensic hospital. Now she's actually refused to take any psychotropic medications. That this is a woman now that's been in for like a decade, not taking medications, never psychotic again, never medic again, never having any of these issues again. And yet the doctors still say, Oh no, you're mentally ill. And she's like, wait a minute. I've had one psychotic main episode. I did this horrible crime, I've been placed here, I got off these drugs you say I need, and now I've never had an issue again.

SPEAKER_01: 19:45

Yeah. So this reminds me, so like there's uh there was a very violent act in Wisconsin, a woman, I think her name, oh, Shabizinus was her last name. Oh yeah. Yes. So anyway, but she was on drugs when she did this horrifically violent act to somebody else. And it just makes me like think, like, why is that any different than somebody being impaired on psychiatric medications? I mean, I I understand some differences, but but honestly, if if a street drug can make somebody psychotic to the point of dismembering or injuring other people, why can't the same be true of a prescription medication?

SPEAKER_03: 20:32

This is exactly right. I mean, obviously these prescription medications are just like illegal drugs often. We hope that the consistency is better, which it is. But, you know, here was the challenge, you know, if you go to your local drug dealer on the corner, right? They're gonna give you something and they're gonna tell you, like, here you go, it's gonna make you feel better, you know, take this. And then if you go to a psychiatrist, and and I shouldn't even say psychiatrist, because again, over 90% of all medications are prescribed by general practitioners and pediatricians, correct? And have on average, by the way, you know, this study was done on average about 30 hours of training in psychopharmacology for psychiatric drugs. So long weekend is what they have, and yet they prescribe 90% of all the meds. Here's the difference the doctor is gonna tell you, oh, you have a chemical imbalance, you need to take it for life, it's not addictive, oh, it's safe and effective, and they're gonna tell you all this stuff. And in that regard, the street drug dealer is more ethical and more honest than your doctor because he at least recognizes you're gonna get addicted, you're gonna get messed up, you're gonna come back to me. And you know, and yet in both cases, the moment that you do some horrible act, they're both gonna run the other way and say, hey, I had nothing to do with it. And that turn lies the problem. And, you know, it's unfortunate because what you have is you have people that don't have informed consent. And this is what it comes down to. And then you say, What's the difference? Here's the difference. You're supposed to be informed, and a doctor will say, Oh, it might give you a little tummy ache, maybe you have a little headache, but you know, they're not okay. There's something called medication guides. So I sit on a board called Know More About Drugs. You go to the website, nomoreaboutdrugs.org. And it was founded by Nancy Cartwright. Nancy's a friend of mine. Nancy is the voice of Bart Simpson. Yeah, she is, and uh, and also like My Little Pony, I think, and Rugrats and a whole bunch of other ones. And uh, and so Nancy is just a beautiful human being, great artist. And we've worked on this project, and and there's billboards all over LA, and and we're on national TV all over. The idea is that so back in the day, the FDA said, look, we get these little inserts, you know, when you get a medication, it's like like six font. It uses a word like akesthesia and words that people don't understand. So they realized we need to give a one-page or a few page handout to people that is easy to read, big font, down and dirty, just here's what you need to know. And nobody knows about these things. They're called medication guides. You can get them at know more about drugs. And if you're thinking about taking a med or you're on a medication, go and look it up and just read and you'll understand and you'll say, Oh my God, I had no idea. And if you didn't have any idea about all these problems that this med causes, then that's a problem because you were not given informed consent. And so when you start to develop mania or hypomania, like you know, stimulant medication, do people know that upwards of 5% of people taking a stimulant medication become matic? So think of 100 kids go on a stimulant med. Everybody takes a stimulant med, Adderall and Redland, and you know, you take this medication, five percent, five out of a hundred kids are gonna start to develop mania, which again is this crazy amount. I don't want to sleep, I'm gonna run fast, I can't even control my thoughts, I'm talking way faster. And it's caused by the med. But no one's gonna say, oh, the medication is causing your kid to do this. You're gonna say, oh, I think your son actually is bipolar.

SPEAKER_01: 23:48

Yes, that's uh I would I was just like holding my mouth together. I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:54

For those of you that are on YouTube, I'm gonna throw a visual into what Toby is talking about right now. Okay. When you get your psychiatric medication, here, here's here's the important information, guys, on Lexapro. May cause drowsiness, dizziness, careful using a vehicle or a vessel. Well shit, I better not get in a vessel. Third trimester may cause health problems. Discuss with doctor, call doctor, mood changes, sadness, depression, or fear. Consult with your pharmacist before breastfeeding, do not drink alcohol. Everybody, that's mine right here. I'm showing it on YouTube. E cetalifram. This is my handout right here.

SPEAKER_01: 24:27

And that's after the cows came home because that was from the pharmacist. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 24:30

And mind you, that was negotiated. Again, I've worked at the FDA, I've testified at the FDA, I've given written testimony like three, four, five times, four times, I think. And these are negotiated on what's allowed and not allowed. And then unfortunately, a lot of the things are again hidden because these drug companies hide and manipulate data. There's a great book called Lima Statistics. Again, like Paxil in particular that you mentioned, you know, I think it's a study, uh, it's like what was it, uh, 427 or something like that. There's one of those studies. Well, again, they took somebody who, again, was a control person that had no mental illness, no mental health problems, took the medication and became suicidal. But instead of it, you know, being coded as suicidal ideation or something like that, they coded it as like emotionally labile or some you know minor thing. Nobody knew that this was like a suicide. And so when you pulled the data, and somebody did, and I forget if that was David Healy and which researcher, they found that, hey, they lied. And so ultimately, you know, Galaxio Smith Klein, the maker of Paxel, had to write a dear doctor letter. And you know, this years later, after people are taking it, becoming suicidal, not knowing about it. Oh, hey, it may cause suicide. I again I submitted data to get those black box warning labels. I testified at the FDA to do that. When, again, for decades, we said we know the SSRIs are causing people to become suicidal and commit suicide. And they refused it and refused it and refused it. Prozac was the first. And finally, they put on these little black box warnings, the most severe warning label you can get that says if you take this, again, it can make you suicidal and aggressive. And, you know, and then they try to dismiss it. I mean, I had psychiatrists in my hometown confront me and say, Oh, you're, you know, you're a Scientologist, Toby, or you're crazy, or you're this, which I'm not. And I was like, the data is right there. Just read the data, but they refused it.

SPEAKER_00: 26:29

And even like a walk in again, they oh, I'll say that drug, right? On the study from Glenn Mullen, right? No, you're good. That study from Glenn Mullen, that drug you're talking about, right? It's the second one listed on here. It's right on here.

unknown: 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:25

Yeah. And so again, people often say though, what what do I do, Dr. Toby? They're like, look, I've been taking this medication, you know, I hear what you're saying, you know, I'm not, uh, you know, I'm okay. I don't want to take it. You know, if I come off every time I get, you know, I get kind of wonky or I feel weird. I don't, you know, I get, you know, manicky or I get more depressed or more anxious. And and so there's very few books out there, you know, that talk about, well, what do you do? And I usually say, hey, good, find a good therapist like the two of you that are willing to work with you and say, hey, meds are the goal is to find the the minimum dose that'll work for you, or and if that happens to be zero, great. And that should be the goal of every practitioner. What is the minimum intervention I have to do to get you success? And so doctors often will titrate up very quickly, get you at a high dose, and you know, say, oh, it's working, so let's not touch it. Well, but would you know a 5% reduction? Would you still be good? Well, then why not do it? Because then you're gonna have less negative side effects. What about another 5%? What about another 5%? And if you're able to do that, again, you titrate yourself down to find what is the minimum dose in it you can work on. And if it happens to be zero, wonderful. The challenge is that these are highly addictive drugs. Again, like the SSRIs, you know, neuroanatomy 101, real quick here. You've got, you know, one neuron here, you got the other one here. This releases stuff, and this one gobbles it up, right? And this is called the synaptic cleft. You release serotonin, and that's one of the theories that they had, and and this gobbles it up. And they said, Well, we know if we change the serotonin levels in in the brain that some people report feeling better. Ergo, it must be a depletion of serotonin, therefore, we need more. That was how the chemical imbalance theory came to light. And so the SSRIs are the re-uptake. So they release serotonin here and it gets re-uptake, it kind of gobbles it back up. So if they block this, more is out here, more of this fires, and they say, Oh, therefore, we corrected the imbalance. Well, again, that was the theory. It was disproven. We we were able to do that from you know both autopsy studies of looking depressed and non-depressed people. We can look at, you know, certain types of scans and actually count the release sites. Having said that, what actually happens though is now when you block these sites here, your brain knows it's not firing the normal way. So it starts to build new gobble up sites, we'll call it, you know, to gobble up that serotonin. And so what happens now is when you stop taking your medication, right? So now you unblock this one and you unblock this one and you unblock all these sites that were here. Well, now you've got all of these little vacuum sites, the new ones plus the old ones. So you release the same amount of serotonin, right? But now it all gets gobbled up. So now you crash and you unmask the new, you know, dysregulated brain that you've caused by the medication. And now that's why people crash and they become manic, suicidal, homicidal, because you've altered your brain in a way to make you have a predisposition to being sad, depressed, manic, violent. And this again, this works the same on whether you're talking about the derpuminergic system, serotoninergic system, any of these types of neurotransmitter systems. This is what's happening. And again, if you have not ever heard this information, then you You do not have informed consent. Yes. And a doctor should have told you that, hey, this is why you start at 10 milligrams. It works for a while. And then you got to go to 10 or to 15 and then 20 and 25 because you keep altering your brain and it needs more and more of the drug to get the same effect.

SPEAKER_00: 30:59

Yes. And the reality of coming off of it is that it is not linear in that way. And you cannot come off of it the same way that you went on it. You cannot go and start at 10 on something and then go into 15 and 20. And then when you're ready to come off, go from 20 to 15 to 10 and exit out of your body because that is that does not work. And that's part of the other issue, too. And I'm sure that you see this with some of the research that you've done and this the speaking that you've done, Toby, is this idea of some of these mass shootings or major acts of violence. You know, we talk about people who are on psychiatric medications that are doing this. But then there is also that population of people who are in full withdrawal that engage in this as well.

SPEAKER_03: 31:44

Yeah. Well, and that's that's what we find in the research is that clearly we have people that either are studying a medication, stopping a medication are the most dangerous. And those are the people, again, judges, again, I get it from their perspective. All they see is a revolving door. Guy came off his med, boom, did some bad thing, is now in my court. Guy came off a med, boom, he's rehospitalized. Guy came off a med. So in their mind, it's like, oh, they got to stay on their meds, they got to stay on their meds. That's why we have all these forced treatment, you know, you know, um orders that judges give where they say, you've been hospitalized three times, we're gonna force you to take the meds now, which again happens very, very frequent in the United States. And these medication, you know, forced orders for treatment are missing the big picture because it's like it's not about being on meds or off meds. Consistency is important, obviously, but it's about, hey, if you're gonna use a med, it should be a short-term intervention ever. Because again, these clinical trials are only usually as long as 16 weeks, but they're telling people you should stay on it for life. There's no data to support this for life, although there is data to support that when we look at post-one year, which is what we consider long term, post-one year, the results start to really drop down. Again, a lot of times people say, Oh, I feel better, even for the antipsychotics. Again, they work very well at curbing positive symptoms in the short term. But after one year, you start to have relapse, relapse, relapse because you're altering the brain, making a predisposition to having the very problem. And then you start to see more hospitalizations and you don't see, you don't see true recovery. You know, in my clinical practice, when I ran a free clinic and had it as a doctoral training program and a day treatment program, we saw true recovery. These are people who are diagnosed bipolar on medication. We would titrate them down, you know, put a whole bunch of other treatments in place, you know, family therapy, nutritional supplements, orphomolecular stuff. We would do a lot of this, you know, in conjunction, might need to see them sometimes two times a week, even up to five times a week. And so at that point, though, you'd see them truly recover. Now, these people are still staying in touch with me sometimes. I just got an email from a woman probably almost 20 years ago. She was in and out of the hospital, on all these meds, told she'd be a patient for life and that she had all these problems, really, truly what we call MADIC, you know, at those times and really struggling. You know, she went back to school, got her master's, she's running a women's uh group home now. Again, hasn't been, hasn't taken a med ever again. A true success, true recovery. And again, there's lots and lots of you know clients like this that we've worked with. I talked to doctors in the courtroom, and you know, when I lecture and talk to people, and they say, I've never had a schizoperson diagnosed with schizophrenia ever recover. It can't happen. I've never had a bipolar, you know. And then if they hear something like that, you know, from somebody else, well, they weren't that they weren't really diagnosed correctly then. They just can't comprehend that what they're doing might be causing the problem.

SPEAKER_01: 34:37

We just had a conversation about this on another episode about bipolar. Yeah, and it was like, well, if it's that easy to clear up, then you weren't properly diagnosed in the first place, you didn't have it. And it's like, or you know, the alternative is that you can help people through this without it. I wanted to bring up something else real quick because when we were talking about violence and shootings and things like that, I wanted to also make it clear that just because a medication is no longer in your system due to the half-life doesn't mean that that neuron and the neuron situation has recalibrated. So I think when we look at retrospectively, like mass shootings and things like that, even if you were to look at like chemical levels, you might not find any. So then the the report would be, well, there was nothing in the system of this person. Well, that's because the half-life of the medication, blah, blah, blah. Time has elapsed, it was gone. But that doesn't mean that your neurochemistry has found homeostasis again yet. It's still going through that disruption, and that can happen for quite a while for somebody. I I think about Dylan.

SPEAKER_03: 35:46

I wouldn't say for a while. For some, it it potentially, again, you damage your brain for life.

SPEAKER_01: 35:50

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_03: 35:51

Illegal drug use or psychotropic drug use can damage your brain for life.

SPEAKER_01: 35:55

Correct. Do you remember Columbine? So Columbine was one of the very first big ones that we heard about in the news, probably because that's when the news was, you know, we had more venues. But I watched the documentary about the the mother was talking about it, and I think it was Klebold's mother. And there was some mention that he had historically been on SSRIs for depression, but I don't believe he was on one at the time of the shooting. I I could be wrong. And to me, that would be an example of a kid coming on and off of them, you know, or just being very inconsistent, taking them and doing more harm than good in that way, but then saying, well, it can't be that because it wasn't in a system at the time. So we're failing to mention this whole other biological or physiological process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:47

It's a structural change to the brain. And then you also have to remember that we talk a lot about the structural change and the damage from the brain. I, as a psychologist, often will look, you know, multifaceted because I'm looking at what happens to the psyche, you know, what happens to the mind, if you will, the conditioning of an individual. If I'm little, you know, again, if I'm a doctor and I give little Billy a medication and I tell little Billy, here, here's your here's your pill, you got to take this every day. This is what's gonna help you control yourself. I've externalized that internal locus of control. Like we have an internal locus of control. Like you know that you can sit right now watching this video and you know, and and and you know, focus and say, okay, I'm gonna do this and this and this. You're in control of yourself and you believe that. But there's a lot of people who are being told, no, no, no, no, that's external. Your pill is what's helping you do this. But here's the challenge now for little Billy. When Billy gets in trouble, how does he get in trouble? He acts out, he does something. So when the pill doesn't work, Billy's punished. When the pill does work and he sits, you know, still, his medication's working. So it's the perfect setup for Billy to never feel like that he truly has mastery of himself. Because when I'm good, it's the medication, and when I'm bad, it's me. And then we wonder why little Billy doesn't feel good about himself. So even in those cases where the medication's gone, you've already set up a stage and a whole training system where he doesn't understand, like, hey, I'm in control of myself, you know, to do this.

SPEAKER_01: 38:55

In a school, so I think about schools and behavioral issues within classrooms and things. And never in my lifetime do I remember being in elementary school or even middle school, the kids were throwing desks and throwing chairs and being so violent. And when you look at the kids often that are doing that, they are the medicated ones. They're the they're the ones on more and more medication, and they're chucking chairs and emptying classrooms. And nobody is saying, nobody's saying, well, maybe, maybe it's the med. It's they're all saying it's not the right med. Yeah. You are.

SPEAKER_00: 39:38

We are. Well, we are. Okay. Like, yeah. But the quiet child, the quiet medicated child that's medicated into compliance is actually the thumbs up star child.

SPEAKER_01: 39:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 39:49

You know, so it's it's one of one of each of the extremes, is is what you're saying, getting us, right?

SPEAKER_03: 39:55

There are other people saying it, in particular with the Columbine shooting. You know who said it? Sanjay Gupa. Remember on TV? He said it one time the medications could have caused and played a role in this shooting.

SPEAKER_04: 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 40:08

He said it on CNN and it was never mentioned again after that because I've heard backstory. Yeah. Yeah. You want to talk about getting some heat? Go on national TV and be one of the biggest correspondents and then say the drug actually did it. Now, mind you, who do you think pays for the news? Who do you think pays for these TV shows? Every ad I see is Big Pharma. They literally fund almost comp I would say single-handedly almost, these drug company commercials. Now, mind you, we're one of only two countries in the plan on the planet that allow direct-to-consumer advertising of drugs. Yes. We recognized a long time ago we should not do this because when you directly advertise a drug to a population or a disorder for that matter, guess what? We as humans have this psychological condition of like, oh, I have that. You know what? Oh, I could maybe I, oh my God, I have generalized anxiety. I feel like anxious when I get in front of a group of people. Well, of course. Who doesn't feel anxious when you get in front of a group of people? And unfortunately, they prey on the vulnerable. They use social psychology for marketing purposes. And so the George Bush Sr. was the one who changed that law and said, hey, we should allow direct-to-consumer advertising. And guess what? He also sat on the board of Eli Lilly. Oh, I didn't have that. Guess what happened that the year after? There's the the stock prices like, you know, like went like a thousand percent profits like you know sort. So we need, and I would, you know, I've said this before, and uh RFK and others are working on it, you know. God, you know, bless them, that we need to stop direct-to-consumer advertising because that will change the game immediately. And of course, the the the the opposers to that say, well, wait a minute, you know, people need to be informed. And that's why, you know, they need to know that there's a disorder. They need to know that there's a treatment available out there. And if you stop that, then people won't get treatment. Which I'm like, are you kidding me? We're the most drugged and diagnosed society on the planet, and our outcomes are horrible. I think at this point, we got to start calling bullshit for what it is.

SPEAKER_00: 42:12

Yeah, I mean, children are coming out of the wombs already self-diagnosing themselves with some kind of you know neurodivergent disorder.

SPEAKER_01: 42:18

They're coming out of the wombs already addicted to psychiatric medication. That's true.

SPEAKER_00: 42:23

I you know, I I'm wondering, okay, can I digress for just a hot second here and tell a story and ask you a little bit about this, Toby? Okay. I'm gonna bring a little of my own like prison trauma into the show right now. Okay. And I want to preface this by saying to people, I am not bringing this up to glamorize anything. I'm actually bringing this up because it's something that like I'm struggling with myself. And after 25 years of being on a psychiatric medication and now being over two years into titrating down off of this medication, I am I'm piecing things together. And there's something that you said today that I think is is important, but there's a story behind it. Okay. When I worked in the prison system, when I was a supervisor of the mental health unit, I oversaw the most mentally ill individuals that were were in the in the state, okay, within the female prison system. All right. I was I was overseeing the entire unit. My job was to oversee all of the staff. So it was a multi-D team, and I ran a multi-D team. So I had every everything from a rec leader all the way to the psychiatrist. And it was my job for years to make sure that everything ran smooth. There was an individual that we had who was labeled as extremely psychotic. And she got herself to a point where I witnessed and saw probably one of the most horrific acts of like self-mutilating violence I have ever seen. And this individual actually ingested one of her body parts. Okay. Now, the interesting part about this came from the perspective that I took later. Again, prefacing this with someone who has been on an SSRI for 25 years now. Okay. I was able to witness this. I was able to watch this video repeatedly because I had multiple staff that were involved in this. And the next day I had to go back and I had to do a lot of checks on these staff a week later, a month later, because what people saw was extremely violent. And what was eerie about this, the most eerie thing about this is that this act of violence that happened with this in inmate, the inmate didn't flinch. The inmate was silent. The inmate took an ingested part of the body and then laid right back down on the bed of an obs floor and didn't make a peep. Nobody knew it actually happened. No one knew until we saw blood later. Not a clue. Okay. So the ability for someone wanted to be so disconnected from themselves that they could do that to themselves and then just lay back down like nothing happened without a peep. Then the ability for someone like me on the back end to come in to have to help the staff with this, to watch this repeatedly, because we, of course, the footage on the gameplay on this was hours of dissecting what occurred, right? And then be able to sit and disconnect completely from that. I think about the idea of now being coming off of medication. I can see this differently, but at the time, I couldn't see this as problematic. So I saw this as an act of violence coming from someone who is psychotic. And of course, she was extremely medicated. Okay. I saw this as psychotic. Then on the back end, as someone working with someone like this who's medicated, I never thought twice about this coming from a different space, nor can I connect with myself at all in this. It was business. It was like, well, what's for lunch? Right. Like you just keep going. So I'm bringing this up because I think about this with the judges that you deal with, the people who disagree with you on this idea, the people who can't connect with this. When we look at the rates of people who are medicated, most of the people that you are trying to see this in a different light are also medicated themselves.

SPEAKER_03: 46:22

Correct. Yeah. Well, you got uh 20% disconnected. Yeah, you got 20% of the population in America, you know, in groups taking the medication.

SPEAKER_00: 46:31

Right. So I I wanna I wanted to ask you about this because here you are with the people whose hands this is in as well. And this, these are the rabbit holes I go down now as I'm slowly my brain is slowly starting to like wake up. Okay. And here you are fighting a fight, and a lot of the people that are against you or that don't agree with you or that can't see this, right? Like how I was, chalk it up to the mental illness. There's you're so disconnected from yourself, you can't even view this in any other way. But yet these people are medicated too.

SPEAKER_03: 47:02

Well, here's and I and not sure if it was uh an actual question or just kind of uh like, hey, what what what yeah, it's a story time, but then I I want to see if you have any like because these are the rabbit holes I go down now, right?

SPEAKER_00: 47:15

Like yeah, here what are your thoughts on that? Here's my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03: 47:19

We've been on this planet for a very long time, and uh, we've struggled with you know mental suffering for thousands and thousands of years. And, you know, back in the day, we used to sit around campfires and and and the elders were the ones who were the wise, you know, men and women. And when somebody did something that was very unusual or very scary or very, you know, disturbing, they would be brought to the elder. And the elder would then talk with them and say, you know, what's going on? And and they may be completely out of control. But this wisdom got passed along generation to generation. So the psychosis, the seeing things, the hearing things, the hallucinations, the dismemberment, the murder, the inhumane acts, this has been around, you know, for thousands of years. But we survived and we were able to come up with some sort of way of working with these people without the use of drugs. You know, drugs came on the scene, you know, in the 50s, basically, like thorousine and uh knocking positive symptomology. But we were very effective. If you go back to the 1920s and you look at, you know, the quote unquote insane asylums and you look at the research, when we had people that were disturbed, we were able to find humane ways to work with these people. And uh, and fine. Uh, Frieda Fraum Reich was one who I remember uh reading. She would go in, and the woman would, or man would be smearing feces, poop all over the place, and they couldn't get this person to stop doing it no matter what they did. She went in there with uh some gloves, put them on and a full suit, sat down and and sat next to the patient, and then just started smearing the poop with the patient. The patient was like the first time that ever happened, and then there was a joining. And then she, you know, took the glove off, brought a candy bar, and started eating the candy bar and said, Hey, you know what? I like candy bars more than I like smearing poop. And then she said, if you want, and gave the patient the candy bar and said, if you want another candy bar, don't smear poop tomorrow. And I'll give you another candy bar and I'll come and I'll talk to you tomorrow. And the patient, lo and behold, for the first time of being in that institution, stop smearing poop. You've got to find some unorthodox way to bridge a human connection to a person who's lost their humanity. Again, when somebody loses their humanity, the things that define us as human love, empathy, compassion, play, laughter, art to uh artistic expression, like with singing and dance and music, when you lose that, you know, the only thing that will restore your humanity is humanity. And so everything else is an illusion. And we can control somebody with medications, because that's what medications do very well. They control, but they don't bridge any human connection. And this is a person who, you know, can literally lost their human, you know, ability where they didn't feel human to the point where you can dismember eat something and say, you know, I'm eating myself. And in some way, you know, again, they might have been in a completely psychotic state, which is a dream-like state. And I tell people this think about when someone's psychotic, it's a waking dream. And in in your dream world, you can fly. In your dream world, wolves chase you or excuse me, or talk to you. In your dream world, the most crazy things can happen, but there's meaning within that craziness. So I guarantee you there's some meaning within that sense of dismemberment and eating and ingesting one's own sense of self. You know, it's kind of a bizarre act. And again, it also could have been just some sort of organic damage that's happening too. Because you usually see non-meaningful expression when there's true organic brain damage, what we call a neurological sequel.

SPEAKER_04: 50:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 50:51

So, but you got to bridge that human connection and figure out, okay, what's going on. And you can't do that when somebody is intoxicated out of their mind on a dehumanizing drug. This is why we see an increase. When you give somebody a drug that stops and let's say cuts off the sadness or cuts off this craziness, you are cutting off part of that human spectrum. Again, human spectrum of beauty is I can cry when a baby's born, and I can cry when there's sadness. And if I don't like the sadness, I'm gonna cut that off with a drug. Well, guess what? I just became less human. So don't be surprised if I do inhumane things because you've messed with my neurochemistry in such a rudimentary fashion. We're talking about a hundred billion neurons with 10,000 connections on each neuron. And you're like throwing it, you know, it's like taking a shotgun at a wall saying, hey, I want to I want I want to hit this one little pin drop here, and you're shooting buckshot at it. It's you're gonna get a lot of collateral damage. And unfortunately, what you saw was probably a lot of collateral damage, along with potentially some, you know, very meaningful, significant piece to them.

SPEAKER_00: 51:58

Right. And then there's the collateral damage of the response from the world around that individual, which is yes, that's that's the thing that I'm thinking about too, and whether it's the environment or whether it's the individuals, because if the individuals are also less human and disconnected from themselves too, you have the perfect storm for a forever consumer.

SPEAKER_03: 52:17

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 52:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 52:18

And you only have two choices. Again, I've you know I've had these discussions. What do you do? I've got an autistic kid or I've got a totally psychotic patient, and they're being violent. They're they're they're they're, I mean, scratching down to the bone, they're cutting, they're doing what do you do? Well, you only got two choices. You either physically restrain them or chemically restrain them. And in America, we've made a choice that we believe chemical, well, we believe chemical restraint is the more humane way than physical. Because again, what will happen if a person's not medicated and they're in their cell or in a hospital room or in a classroom and they start like hang, you know, baiting themselves in the head, what are you gonna do? Teacher, doctor, you know, inmate or uh guard is gonna run up and physically contain you and they're gonna hold you, and maybe two or three. And it and if you calm down and and you don't hurt yourself or someone else, they'll release you. But if you continue to struggle and resist their help, you're gonna end up getting an injection because they believe the injection will be less intrusive than physically holding you down. And we made that change at some point and said, hey, that's what we that's what we're gonna do. I don't know if that's a better thing or worse thing. I don't know if the outcomes are better or worse, but it seems to me like, you know, maybe a short-term injection, all right, you chemically restrain them. Now they're done. Do you then don't do it again? But what happens if it happens again? Well, then you do it a second time. Well, at some point you realize our intervention's not working. We've done it five times this person now. Now we're gonna put them on med full time to just contain him. Well, it's control, it's not treatment because you haven't addressed the issue. Again, it's treatment. I mean, it's it's control. So the question is, do you go back to the physical restraint? Or again, at what point do you start having talks and discussions and get a new set of eyes in there and say, what are we missing here? Why does this person, you know, become so violent? What is going on? Again, is there an organic brain damage? Is there an issue there, you know, in the case of maybe like an autism and stuff? Or is there something, you know, else going on that's you know psychologically being reinforced here? Is there a trauma response here? Is this person okay, we call it the repetition compulsion that, hey, they've been abused and now this is horrible as it is, it feels normal to them. And it and they they have this unconscious drive to do it again and again and again, just like we all have unconscious drives to repeat bad behavior and we don't show why. Well, until you really dive into it, look at it, explore it, you're gonna be, you know, a victim of yourself doing it again and again. And unfortunately, we as practitioners aren't being trained analytically to do this. We're all about the behavioral intervention and only on the short-term fix of medicate, medicate, medicate. And often, you know, I will implore any therapist watching this. You need to own your mastery of your knowledge and expertise. Don't let a psychiatrist or a medical doctor trump you and say, hey, they're the ones in charge. Now, maybe in an institution or in some organization, they are the ones and you're getting the leftovers. You need to advocate for your patient saying, What you do is harming my ability to help them. And it is, because you're getting an intoxicated person on a medication and trying to do therapy with them. And if you think about what therapy happens often, when you talk about different conversations, you'll get an emotional reaction. And that's your beacon, that's your lighthouse saying, Oh, I touched upon something. Let's explore that more. But if that lighthouse lighthouse beacon is being dimmed by medication and they're being subdued, then you're gonna miss it and not get it. Keep in mind that most AODA therapists understand this because they won't do therapy with an active using client. Why? Yep, because they know something called state learning. And here's what state learning is we all done this. If I go out to the bar and I have, let's say, a bunch of cocktails and I learn how to play pool or play darks, when I'm sober, I don't play as good. Why? Because I learned the behavior in a different state of mind. If I'm intoxicated on a psychotropic med and I'm learning meta communications in the classroom, you know, as Sally like me, do I dress okay? Am I okay? Should I talk faster, slower? And all these things are going on, all these little things, but I'm slightly intoxicated, and then they change the meds, the world looks different. Or if I come off the meds, the world looks different. And if you don't believe this, how about the people who go to a party and they have a few cocktails and they can be the life of the party? And they can do that 10, 12 times. But when you go to a party, you're sober. Are you the life of the party? No, you're you're anxious. Why? Because you never all the skill, where happened to all the skills that you learn and you all the stuff, you know, where'd that go? Or if you're taking marijuana again, if you're taking, you know, a RIDLING or you're taking a benzodiazepine. It's the same principle. And if you're giving somebody now an antipsychotic medication, mind you, D2 dopamine, about upwards of 80% gets blocked on D2 dopamine blocking agents like, you know, Haldol, you know, all these, you know, atypical and typical neuroleptics. So when you're blocking that much, which really shuts down your frontal lobe and shuts down behavior, you're not processing at all. So, you know, you might as well almost throw therapy out the window to some extent. You might be able to get them indoctrinated into taking their medication and learn that behavior like, I've got to take my meds, gotta take my meds, I've gotta take my meds. I mean, yeah, if you want somebody to be a little robot and not have a, I guess, uh a true life free from mental health and problem and problems, but you're gonna deal with that person again and again at some point, either A, because the meds are eventually gonna do such global medical decline where they die early, which is again a statistic that we know happens, where you've got upwards of 35% of people dying in 17 years if they're taking two different psychotropic or uh antipsychotic meds.

SPEAKER_04: 58:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 58:08

So at some level, it's like we're doing a short-term benefit, you know, long-term problem. And in some weird way, again, people are on these meds and they're working and working, they're working, paying in the social security, paying into the system, and then right to the point where all of a sudden they're boom, now 20 years on average is where it is that their life is ended early. Yeah, they don't get to reap the benefit of their retirement. So in a weird financial corrupt way, it's kind of really great for the system. Correct. Government, the drug companies, the doctors, everybody's doing pretty well off the backs of these people who are very vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00: 58:46

Well, we've got about a minute or so left, Toby, as we wrap up here. Is there is there any message that you want to hit home with when it comes to this idea of psychiatric medications and violence?

SPEAKER_03: 58:58

Yeah. So one recognize if you are going to take a medication and you start to become irritable, aggressive, or somebody else is saying something, again, the med might be the problem. And you got to talk to your doctor about getting off. And if the doctor says no, I'm not gonna do it, find a new doctor, find a new therapist. And if you're not taking a medication, again, it would be an absolute last resort to do something like that, you know, and try to do that. If you want more information, you can follow me. Again, go to my website, drtobywatson.com. I'm on Instagram. You can you know connect me with me there if you want. Or again, know more about drugs.org, Nancy Currett, Bart Simpson, aka. And I'd be happy to share that information with you as well. There's lots of resources. The other one I would recommend is you know, talk to these two ladies right here, and then also yeah, madinamerica.org, which is Bob Whittaker. It's a great, probably the largest online platform of people blogging, uh sharing stories, sharing research, lots of places to go out there. You just gotta be a critical thinker and get out of the system.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:02

Yeah, 100%. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Toby. Everyone, if you made it here to the end, we are the Gaslit Truth Podcast. Make sure that you give us all the stars, get on YouTube and subscribe to our channel. And uh, I don't know, what am I missing, Terry? We got any any other shout outs we got to give at the end of the show today?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:19

Send us your Gaslit Truth stories at thegaslit truth podcast at gmail.com. Thanks, Toby.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:24

Yeah, you're most welcome. Yeah, go Charlie Kirk.