My Spouse Diagnosed Me with a Mental Health Problem | Dr Teralyn Sell and Therapist Jenn Schmitz

A lot of partners arrive with a plan: diagnose the other, prescribe a podcast, and force “the work” through an ultimatum. We blow the whistle on that dynamic and unpack why pressure backfires, how pop-psychology labels fuel contempt, and what ethical therapy actually looks like when one spouse is sent in to be “fixed.” Along the way, we explore the emotional mismatch many couples face—one person wants depth and naming, the other wants specifics and steps—and why checklists, chores, and box-ticking rarely create intimacy.

We go deep on the medication mandate: the “chemical imbalance” story, how spouses push antidepressants as a quick solution, and the real-world fallout when meds blunt emotion, change personality, and erode connection. If you’ve ever thought, “Do the work so I can be happy,” this conversation will challenge your assumptions. We share research on spousal pressure, the Gottman signals that predict divorce (contempt and criticism), and the ethical red flags when a therapist labels a partner they’ve never met. No more armchair diagnosing. No more superiority.

What works better? Specific, mutual agreements. Ownership of your side of the system. Transparent boundaries. Informed decisions about medication with eyes open to side effects that affect bonding and libido. And therapy that focuses on you, not weaponizing a diagnosis against your partner. If the “identified problem” goes away and the relationship still hurts, that’s your invitation to examine resentment, power, and avoidance—on both sides. Listen, reflect, and choose curiosity over control.

If this resonated, follow the show, leave a rating, and share the episode with someone who needs a reframe. Got a Gaslit Truth story? Email thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com. Subscribe on YouTube for alerts and upcoming conversations.

We're recruiting for a first-of-its-kind psychiatric medication withdrawal research study. If you've experienced psychiatric medication withdrawal, you may be eligible to participate.  Email DrTeralyn@DrTeralyn.com to learn more. 

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Transcript

Hook, Bias, And Setup

Dr Teralyn Sell 0:21

You have been gaslit by your wannabe therapist spouse that you are the reason your marriage is failing and you need professional help. We are your whistleblowing strength, Dr. Tarylyn and Therapist Jen. Um, and I just want everybody to know that that hook I came up with when I was on the toilet doing my business. And this time showers and toilets, freaking showers, toilets, and when I'm running. I don't know. This is when I get these big ideas. Okay, so make sure that before we before we start this, guys, make sure you get on YouTube and please like us, hit the subscribe button, get all the alerts so that you can know what's coming up on our episodes. And just a quick thing as well before we jump into this, don't forget that Dr. Terylyn and I are deprescribers. We can help you get off of psychiatric medication or your spouse off of psychiatric medication, safely for the brain and the body. And we can also offer you a little bit of education on why it is that you may have been gaslighting your spouse into taking those meds because you're a wannabe therapist. So let's talk about it.

unknown 1:26

Oh my gosh.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 1:28

So is everybody on social media, by the way.

Dr Teralyn Sell 1:30

It was a mouthful. All right, all right. Let's let's dive into this. What is the problem we are addressing in this episode, Terry? What the hell is it? And why do we have a bias? Let's throw it out there.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 1:42

Well, I mean, we have a bias because of our practice for sure. So so our sample size is as big as our practice, basically.

unknown 1:51

Small.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 1:52

Right now, I got about eight going through it right now. Yeah. It and it's something, you know, Jen and I were talking about this, and this is something that pops up consistently, especially, and so it happens in both

Ultimatums And Armchair Diagnosis

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 2:06

ways, but especially when men come into therapy, right? So a lot of men who come into therapy are coming in at the urging of their female spouse. Yeah, their marriage, their marriage, gonna end. It's gonna end unless you fix yourself.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Ultimatum.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 2:22

The ultimatum happens, and that happens in couples therapy too, by the way. It doesn't just an individual, but because a lot of women these days are armchair therapists, right? And they are thinking that they have diagnosed you, and now you're coming to the therapeutic altar to be fixed, right? By Jen and I, right? Yeah, here we are.

Dr Teralyn Sell 2:45

Here we are, ready to fix you.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 2:47

Yes, and this is and to validate your spouse on all the things that are wrong with you, and hopefully all the things that are right with the spouse, because that seems to be it's very interesting to me because when people come in and you're not validating the spousal perspective, even though the spouse isn't in the session, and so you can't even do that, really. I mean, you're not validating their diagnostic, you know, or you know, you're giving them strategy on how to interact differently with the spouse, some suddenly the therapist needs to be terminated, right? Because they're not they're not siding with the spouse that you've never even met, right? Like you've not even met them, right? To know, right? But you're not saying that they're a narcissist or they're this or that or whatever it is.

Dr Teralyn Sell 3:35

And in newsflash for everybody who, you know, because this is gonna be a topic that a lot of spouses are this is gonna piss piss them off. Like my spouse is a narcissist, my spouse has no idea who they are, my spouse cannot reflect internally on anything. My spouse is an alcoholic, my spouse has major trauma issues from things that happened to them when they were eight years old. And this is why the marriage is falling apart. A news flash for any of you out there that are set like giving these ultimatums to your spouses. Uh, when those spouses go to see a professional, okay, if they are, I'm gonna say ethically sound in their practice, all right, their job is to sit and not necessarily confirm that you were right by saying that's it. In fact, the therapist's job is to take the the the side of the client and listen to the client. So whatever you like have to say about them, we're gonna hear it coming out in your spouse's words.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 4:39

It is interesting because I do have, I mean, the majority of my clients are actually married. So I do, and historically the same, I do have them coming in and they already have a diagnosis from their partner. Yes.

Dr Teralyn Sell 4:52

Oh, many diagnoses. And in fact, what I see coming through is not only diagnoses in the labeling, but also I can hear, I can actually hear the like buzz psychology words.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 5:06

Yes, that my client social media psychology handbook.

Dr Teralyn Sell 5:11

And and I will ask them, I'm like, do you know what that word means? Have you, and some of them can say, absolutely I know what that word

Therapists Don’t Take Sides

Dr Teralyn Sell 5:18

means. Some of them will say, Well, yeah, I mean, so every other week my spouse sends me a new podcast that I have to listen to. And so I'm an article or a blog or a video clip or a meme. Or yeah, yes, and so and so for them, they're coming to therapy, not because they have internally reflected and went, yeah, actually, I do have some fill-in-the-blank traits, right? They're coming to therapy and they have watched or read these things and they don't believe they have that. They they don't they don't actually believe they have that, but my spouse has told me I do.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 5:55

And so you can see And has given me the ultimatum.

Dr Teralyn Sell 5:58

And then giving me the ultimatum, right? So guess what? No internal reflection has been done. So news flash, ladies or gentlemen, who tell your spouse that you have to go see a therapist now or I'm ending this marriage. The therapist's job is to actually figure out whether or not that person believes these things. We're not gonna take that side. We're not going to take your side.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 6:21

Yeah, it doesn't mean we're adamantly like going, nope, we're never gonna take the side of the other person. It just means that's not how we view things. And we haven't figured it out yet either.

Dr Teralyn Sell 6:31

No, and it's so it's it's this great dichotomy that's gonna exist.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 6:36

I think the uh, and uh I'm just speaking uh not from research at this point. I I think it's because women view themselves as more emotionally sound and aware than men, right? And so of course, I'm I'm moving from this from a position of emotional content. So, therefore, if you don't meet me emotionally where I am, there's something wrong with you. And I often, you know, we were kind of talking about this off the show a little bit, and I I said something like, I think sometimes it's I'm grossly overgeneralizing women who can't handle the emotions of their husbands or the lack of emotions, therefore, it's not my problem to learn how to, you know, manage myself within this relationship. It's your problem for not meeting me where I need to be emotionally. And I know that sounds really weird to say, but I think it's true. We I think innately we need to understand men and women function differently. Men often have more of a logical brain, women have more of an emotional brain. And unless we are curiously trying to understand our partner, we're not gonna get there. We're gonna say, you're different than me, and I need you to be the same as me and react the same as me. But men might be looking at their female partners going, I don't want to emotionally overreact like you are. You know, like I like who I am, right? So, like there's such a weird uh difference here. But before we were doing the show, we were talking about is it men or is it women that tend to uh push or pressure their partner into therapy? You know, I mean research shows some things that women are are more medicated than men, like twice as many. It's like one in five women at this point are more medicated than men. Men and women are treated differently when they show up for mental health things. Women tend to get different interventions than men, however, they present around this similar time, uh not time, but frequency, like yep, the same amounts of depression in men and women, but they're they just

Buzzwords, Labels, And No Reflection

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 8:42

express differently, and also the outcomes are different. But women tend to have more time in therapy and they tend to have more psychiatric medication. So it's kind of one of these things, and you've heard it with friends, I've heard it with friends. It works with me, it worked for me. We'll say a medication. This medication worked great for me, so I think you should try it. Like that's that's how that works. And so just by sheer numbers, I think women pressure men more than men pressure women, just by sheer numbers of how women are treating their mental health, like they're they're getting quote unquote more help. I don't know if it's more help is good, like a different help is good, right? So more doesn't necessarily mean better help, you know? Right. But I think there's a moral standard here, Jen. I I think women are who are going to therapy and they're taking meds, stand on a moral high ground about it. Like I'm doing the work, I'm doing something for me, and you're doing nothing. I've listened to all the podcasts, I've done all this stuff, I've tried to solve your problem. That I think the I'm on a tangent. I think I think part of the issue is that a lot of people, when they listen to podcasts, they read the books, they do all this, they don't do it for themselves, they do it for themselves, like they they do it through the eyes of their spouse, right? I'm not gonna read this book and and have self-reflection about me. I'm gonna read it so I can diagnose and pathologize you, right? You, whether it's my child or my partner. I'm gonna do it like that. And that is the problem. I think that's part of the the biggest problem. But well, and that's what we see.

Dr Teralyn Sell 10:22

That's the largest thing that's always for all the years we've been doing this.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 10:27

Why are you here? Because my wife gave me articles and said that I need to come here. She's got it all wrapped up, you know.

Dr Teralyn Sell 10:34

She's an she she's an expert in psychology, Jen. Also, well, tell me a little bit about that. Well, she reads a lot of books and she listens to the city.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 10:41

She has a lot of degree in psychology.

Dr Teralyn Sell 10:43

All right. I and okay, like in high school, she took AP psych. Sorry. Okay, let's not go there because I failed psych 101. And I'm psyched. So, like, I I I don't even think I could say that. I know I can retake it. Damn it. I just okay. All right, we're gonna talk about that. But I I think that that I think it's it's worth getting inquisitive, whether you're the the husband end of this or the wife end of this, whatever the spousal end of this that is being told by somebody in your life, you need to go get help.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Okay, where do you think?

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 11:16

I think it's even further than that. I don't think, I don't think they say help. I think people are more specific and they say, you need to be on meds. I really believe that people are more specific. I've heard it in sessions, but I really believe it's not. Go get the help that you need. I really think it's maybe it starts like that, but I think it's like a funnel. Like it starts up, you need to get help. And then it turns into you need to be on meds.

Dr Teralyn Sell 12:22

What what is exact what does it mean exactly when someone says you you need to do the work? What is the work? What is the thing? Nobody needs to get in the chat and tell us if you have been done this before, what exactly does that mean when you have when you have a significant other who is telling you you've got to go get professional services, whether it's therapy, whether it's psychiatric medication, whether there's another form of an intervention, a professional intervention that you need to have done. What is what does that mean?

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 12:55

I think that's part of the problem, Jen, because I think I do it too, right? So, like I am again, goddamn, this is like an over-grossly gener over generalizing for women. So sorry, but not sorry at the same time. I think women say very ambiguous things, like you need to get help, you need to do the work, you should know what you need to do. Very general, there's no specifics. Whereas a man's brain is like, you need to do the work. Take this piece of wood with this nail and a hammer and hammer it to the wall. Like, tell me what is the work that I need to do. It's like this super to them, like super secret. What does it mean when she says you need to do the work? I don't fucking know. Well, I have no idea.

Dr Teralyn Sell 13:38

And is there a level of introspection, self-reflection that that person on the other end, that's actually what they do need to work on? Because if you're sitting, if you're actually sitting there and following the things that your spouse needs to say, and it's here's the hammer,

Emotional Mismatch And Gender Assumptions

Dr Teralyn Sell 13:51

heels the nail, put this on the wall, tell me what to do. Oh, exactly. Those a lot of those individuals will come into the therapy office, and that's actually where we start. And through the process of therapy, that spouse learns a thing about themselves and learns that what they truly want and how they're gonna get there is not the life they're living right now.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 14:14

True, yeah, true. And on the on the flip side of that, like I don't want to just disparage somebody telling the other partner to do the work because we know in a relationship it's relational, right? Like, so you are living in an ecosystem that that requires you to have some introspection of yourself and awareness of your partner at the same time. And so if you are walking around with blinders on to yourself and to your partner, that is problematic for both people, of course, right?

Dr Teralyn Sell 14:45

Yes. And then what ends up happening is the spouse who comes to therapy, the blinders over time start to come come off. And they start to have self-awareness. They start to recognize that maybe some of the things that you were doing and telling this, telling you to do were actually not okay to tell me to go and listen to a to tell me that if you don't read this book and go see this therapist I have picked out for you for you, I'm leaving you. That's super common. I don't know. I right I've had that. Yeah, I have I have picked you out.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 15:21

Yeah, yes. What you're white, why are you not invested in this? You know, at the same time. That's just it.

Dr Teralyn Sell 15:27

That that's just it. And so that's the beauty of because I want to do the right thing.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 15:30

I want to put, I want to take the nail and put it in the wood and do the thing. And this is yep, this is what I've been told. This is how my wife prescribed it. This is the only way that I can get better or save my relationship.

Dr Teralyn Sell 15:42

And then along the way in therapy, you recognize no, actually, first I needed to get a drill bit and drill a different hole. I need a drywall screw. I need a okay, I've got to have a one that can hold a certain pound of reflection.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 15:54

I feel like I need a stud finder to pick up. I suppose I should go back.

Dr Teralyn Sell 15:57

Okay. What do we do? We have like slate behind the walls. I don't know. 1900 home. Is it a 2025 home? Okay, like do we what do we have behind the walls? So that's a process of therapy, right? So then the spouse who has come here starts to actually learn something about themselves. They learn about the things that they're okay with that their their spouse has done and the things they're not okay with. And then they have to go back to the spouse and say, Listen, I have learned all these things about myself now in this process. Here are the things you've done that I'm not okay with. And all of a sudden that dialogue starts, and the spouse that said, You need to go to therapy, they want us fired. Yeah. They want us fired.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 16:38

We will hear, we will hear things like, Well, you're not changing enough. This isn't the change that I wanted you to make. Stuff like that is what the feedback that we'll get back.

Dr Teralyn Sell 16:48

Right. That to me, though, that to me is a good indication that someone is figuring out self-discovery. Like to me, that is a good indication. And and I I think that people who make these demands of their spouses that you need to go see therapy so that you change. Here's our informed consent, guys. All right. There is a huge risk for you when you tell your spouse you need to go see a therapist because guess what? If that that spouse along the way really starts to learn about themselves, can reflect internally, has got a huge level of like introspection they didn't have before. Guess what they might come back to you and say, I want a divorce. This isn't gonna work for us.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 17:32

Yes.

Dr Teralyn Sell 17:32

So your whole master plan of trying to tell somebody what they need in their life, it's gonna backfire on you.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 17:40

Also, doing that, and let's say I tell I tell Steve what I need him to do in my life is A, B, and C, and he goes and he does A, B, and C. And I go, I'm still miserable. You doing A, B, and C didn't change me enough. It didn't change me, didn't change my feelings, it didn't change because I think there is a hope there that if you go to therapy and you do all the changing, then I can be over here and I'll change too, or I'll I I can look at you differently, but it doesn't happen.

Dr Teralyn Sell 18:12

But who's the that's but that's where it comes in. Who is the problem? If I am a spouse that is sending my significant other to therapy and I don't own any of the problem, whatever it is, right? That's where this becomes the issue. Because if guys, if you're in a space in your life where you're giving somebody an ultimatum that they need to go do something, which is a very subjective like kind of statement to say to someone, like, here's the work here's the work you haven't done. You need to go do it. Yeah. Uh you better, you better be doing that work as well. Because at some point, the two of you are probably gonna, if you want to make things work, you're gonna have to come together at some point and probably intersect some of that, which is where some of this couples therapy comes in.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 19:01

Well, I think I think sometimes women do it and they say, I've done all the work. Yeah, and because I've listened to all the podcasts and I've done it. But the work is subjective. Like, exactly. What are we fucking talking about? Like, I don't know. Yeah, but I've already but by the time, by the way, by the time you get to an ultimatum state of things, like you need to go fix yourself to fit. You've already decided. You you pretty much already decided that the marriage you don't really want it. So I think by the time, and this is for the other partner to be like aware, if your partner has gotten to the point of ultimatums, goddamn, have you missed the clues for probably years, you know, or you haven't, or you know it, and the two of you or you know

“Do The Work” And Ambiguity

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 19:46

it and you've put your blinders on and you're just deciding that I'm gonna stonewall the shit out of the rest of my life and not address anything because if I don't address or say anything, then it can't get any worse.

Dr Teralyn Sell 19:57

When people come to the therapy office individually and they say that, okay, after a little bit of time with meeting someone with somebody, one of the things that I will say to them is, This isn't new news, is it?

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 20:12

No.

Dr Teralyn Sell 20:13

And they will be, I will say, you know, like especially people who sometimes if they move forward with divorce or they do a separation or something, I will I will say to them, when did this start? And they they will go, five years ago.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 20:26

Yeah, or they'll be like, I was blindsided by this. I don't believe that for a minute.

Dr Teralyn Sell 20:30

No, because typically typically it doesn't happen. Okay, once in a great while, sure. I mean, we've got our outliers. Okay. But most of the time people can say that, well, yeah, this has been, I don't know, four years, five years, nine months. Like they're able to say, like, I didn't come here all of a sudden, and I was like, Oh, I had no idea. No, the process has been going. So, what have you been doing about it along the way? What has your spouse been doing about it along the way? And how did you get to a point of ultimatum?

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 21:01

Yeah, for for men, it's well, I've been doing all the to-do lists. Yes. All the all the chores that she puts on a list for me. I've been doing all of that. So I don't understand.

Dr Teralyn Sell 21:11

And here's where that, here's why I don't like that. Okay. If you tell your spouse, I need you to do this, this, and this, I need you to read these books, I need you to go see this therapist, I need you to to listen to these podcasts. I'm gonna send you all the time. I'm sending you these YouTube videos in these Instagram reels and these TikToks so you know how I feel. I hear this all the time. Yes, I want you to know this is where I'm at. Okay. So your spouse on the other end, guys, check, check, check, right? They're doing all the things that you're asking. Then you get pissed at them because, well, you're just checking boxes. Yes.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 21:51

They you are. Wait, I went, wait, I gotta, I gotta make one more, one more statement on this because it's also the the honeydew list, right? So, like the list of chores and things like that. And but then they do the list of chores. Well, you only did the list of chores because I wanted you to do the list of chores.

Dr Teralyn Sell 22:11

Again, you're in between rock and a hard place, double-edged sword, whatever the fuck you want to call it, you you're you're screwed, right? So here you are trying to figure it out as well because you don't want the marriage to end, you don't want these things to fall apart. Okay, so I'm gonna do these check boxes. But by doing the check boxes, you're just doing the motions.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 22:32

Yes, you're not doing the change. And so what is the what is the cherry on the top? What are they supposed to do? No, but what are they supposed to do? But I'm also gonna bring in what is the cherry on the top. You have a chemical imbalance and you need medications. The only way we're gonna make it through our relationship is if you fix your brain with medication. And that is where Jen and I started this original. Conversation. We did.

Dr Teralyn Sell 23:01

Shout out to the Facebook group that antidepressants ruined marriage. We ought to give a shout out to that one. Terry and I are super grateful for the individuals that are in that group. I know we have some super fans in that group. I know that you guys listen to the show, and many of you will be able to resonate with what we're going to talk about here because you have been in those positions.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 23:26

If you didn't hear what she called this marriage is destroyed by antidepressants on the face on Facebook. So please if you if you are impacted by antidepressants in your marriage, please go and get support there. It's a really good group. It's an awesome group. It's an awesome group. Awesome group.

Dr Teralyn Sell 23:39

Yep. And and for the for for that group of people, right? Because we've got a couple sides of the coin in that in that group. We have people who have been, well, multiple different sides. We've got people who have been medicated as the spouse who went in because their spouse or significant other said to them, You need to go get help. You need professional help. You need psychiatric help. There is something wrong with you. And as the spouse, you go in and you do that. And there are implications to that. There are other individuals in that group who are on the other side of it, and they are the spouses whose significant others are medicated. They didn't necessarily tell them to go do that. And they're sitting on the other side watching their spouse fall apart because of the harm that is being done by psychiatric medication. Then once in a great while, you have people who pop in and they are both medicated and they will talk about that themselves and their spouse being medicated and how that influences and/or destroys, right? Because that's the word that's destroyed antidepressants, marriage is destroyed by antidepressants. Their marriage is destroyed because they're both medicated. Who am I missing?

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 24:49

I think you got them all.

Dr Teralyn Sell 24:50

Okay. You usually this is what you see, or you know, and so let's talk about this. Let's talk about the implications of psychiatric medication within a marriage.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 25:02

Yeah. And well, pressuring. So we started off with like the question that I asked was, Were you, and I asked it in this group, were you pressured or did you do the pressuring of your spouse to become medicated? Is the was the question that I put out to the group. And oddly, I we I actually found some research on this, which is there's research on every I

Checklists, Resentment, And Moving Goalposts

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 25:26

don't think there is a topic left unresearched at this point. But anyway, I I found it I found an article that is in PubMed, and it's called quote, go see somebody, how spouses promote mental health care. And I just think some of the language in here is really funny because promote, I would have replaced with pressure, pressure uh others into mental health care. So this was an interesting article, and there there were some quotes in here that that people had said about either they were the spouse that wanted their other spouse to be on it. I won't even read one, but now I lost my spot. I would say, or he would say, Well, why don't you try antidepressants? I know it's a tough thing. Why don't you consider it? And so finally one day I went into my therapist and said, Okay, I'm ready to try it. And I went home and told Michael that he said, I'm so happy. He said, I'm so relieved. He said, Quote, do you know how anxious you can be? And da-da-da. And I said, No, I didn't realize that. So he was thrilled. And the first thing that I thought of was just positive feedback for being medicated, like it's the right thing to do. And so then the placebo effect happens like almost immediately. Good for you. You did something for yourself, and lo and behold, you're gonna save the marriage or save yourself. And then another one was talking about how they were, they didn't, they didn't call it. I can't, I can't talk and do this all the time, uh, pressuring or what do you call it, badgering or whatever. But they would bring it up over and over and over again that they needed to be medicated. And then finally the spouse went in to be medicated, and then all was well in the world. And I'm like, that is to me, it's kind of like saying, if you have an alcohol problem, if only you would stop drinking alcohol, then our relationship would be better. Then the person stops drinking alcohol and the relationship remains the same without alcohol.

Dr Teralyn Sell 27:23

Right. Because who really truly also, I mean, who who had the problem in the first place? Who really was it that wasn't addressing issues in the first place? I would think both, actually. Like Right, yeah, right. So, so if in that in that last that last example that you just gave, you have the spouse who's saying, you need to go in. You're too much for me. You're you're an alcoholic, things are problematic. You need to go get treatment for this. So the spouse goes, becomes medicated, does some ridiculous is what happens. That's often what happens, right? They go do some treatment form for some form of AODA treatment. Okay. Oh boy.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 28:10

We're gonna be talking about these days.

Dr Teralyn Sell 28:12

You have to do a topic on this. Terry and I hold back on that one because the addiction community can be assholes to us. They have been. And not that we can't have thick enough skin for that, but there is some ridiculousness

The Medication Mandate And Its Risks

Dr Teralyn Sell 28:24

around that. So we'll say at some point that was gonna come in. Okay, we'll get there. But, anyways, they go, they get treatment, they get medicated, they do their CBT, or they do their right things. They're good, they do all the right things, maybe outpatient treatment, they do some mindfulness and some coloring. Okay, fine. Then they get better. The alcoholism stops becoming a problem. They all of a sudden have a period of sobriety for all, I don't know, four months, five months, six months. And on the other end, the spouse is still sitting there going, Well, why the fuck am I not why is this not happy? Why am I not happy? Why am I not happy? They did what I asked them to do. Now they're medicated, they've been sober for however many months, right? And yet here I am on the other side, left with all the original problems that I had that I never fucking dealt with in the first place. Your spouse having problems with a form of addiction. Is that problematic? Yes, absolutely. You are in a system. There is a family system within the marriage. There's two of you. However, what else was contributing to that? Because guess what? We got rid of the problem. The alcohol, the drinking has stopped.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 29:28

The identified problem.

Dr Teralyn Sell 29:30

And yet you're still wealth with going, well, God, I kind of still don't, I'm really not happy, not happy in this marriage. Things like he stopped drinking, but things haven't like gotten super better.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 29:40

And that, like you think about the role of that spouse, right? So the role of that spouse was a lot of taking over because of the alcoholism, making decisions, probably rearing children almost alone, that kind of thing. Then this, then this is gone. And now you're also you don't have to focus anymore on your spouse being the problem, right? So so much energy, I think. And we're not just talking about alcoholism or drug addiction. We're talking about just when you view your partner as a problem. All of your energy goes into figuring out what their problem is, like what their problem is, not what my problem is, what and what their problem is.

Dr Teralyn Sell 30:20

What did you not address along the way that led you to being so mad, so bitter, so trying to have to figure out here's your issue now? Like, what did you person toward your spouse? What did you not address along the way? If that person was an absent parent, did you not address that? Right? If that person, you're having issues sexually with that person all these years, right? Did you address that with them? What are the things internally that you never dealt with while they were off being an alcoholic? Okay, so to say, right? Or an absent parent their own issues. What about the financial like literacy piece that goes behind this? What about the spiritual piece? What are all the things that you actually never addressed? So when we pull the drinking out of the picture, what are you still left with?

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 31:08

Now let's add in that you have also become medicated because this happens a lot in systems. Like I am very unwell in my relationship, so I'm going to be medicated as well. Or first, I'm going to be medicated first. I'm going to push you into doing the work and all these things. And I can't connect with you. I can't connect with anyone because I'm medicated, but I'm not going to know that. Like, I'm not going to understand that as the medicated one first, that I can't even connect with my partner, which by the way, then makes you look at them like they're still the problem. I don't like you as the medicated person myself. I used to look at Steve like, I don't want to be with you. I don't, if only you would do something different. Like I literally, my focus was on him. If only you would do something different, then I could thrive in my own life. And not putting together the pieces of the puzzle that this was the medication doing this to me and destroying my sense of self and ability to connect with others, and literally reframing how and reshaping how I looked at my life and the people in it. Okay. Not saying that he wasn't doing anything quote unquote wrong, but he wasn't doing anything egregious, right? Like it was my perspective of him not changing, him not doing enough, him not all these things. And at that time, though, I wasn't like pushing him into therapy or anything. I was just like pushing us into divorce, is what I was doing. But but if you are the medicated partner, that that is also your perspective has changed about your spouse. Right. You're not looking because you're doing the work, you're medicated, you might be going to a therapist, you're doing all the things you're supposed to do, and you're not. But who's the problem here?

Dr Teralyn Sell 33:00

You know, right. And when you go off those meds, no different than when you stop that alcohol. What are you left with? What are you left with those things that I think original problems that were there in the first place? In the first place. Now you actually have added on more damage, not only as we know, like neurologically to yourself and all of the the other like the iatrogenic effects, but the iatrogenic effects also extend now back into that marriage, which was a problem in the first place. Because you actually created more rifts. The inability to connect in this process because the psych meds have numbed you, started to create even more rifts that maybe weren't even there in the first place within within that marriage. So you got to go back now and undo all of the you thought you were disconnected in the first place. You just

Antidepressants And Marital Fallout

Dr Teralyn Sell 33:46

took disconnection on through a whole new level. Whole new level. Right. So now the damage to repair is actually 10 times greater than what it was pre-medicated. And so you're you're backtracking. And this goes, guys, this conversation goes both ways. So I know right now we're talking about the spouse who is being told you need to go get help. Okay. But it goes both ways as well. If you're the spouse yourself that is medicated and you have been medicated for a while, and you bring this idea to your significant other, like you need to go get help. I've gotten help. I am I'm medicated, I've been medicated for years. This is something that you need to do. Okay. By the way, I'm medicated for years. I'm still unhappy. And I'm still unhappy in our marriage, and very unhappy in our marriage, still unhappy. Which think about this, guys. If you're the spouse who's medicated and you go and you ask your spouse to do all the things, and they they they go do the checklists, they they, you know, they go to the therapist, they start doing all this extra extra work. If they have problems with addiction, they go get a treatment for that addiction. They change their lifestyle, they start going to the gym, they're taking care of themselves, they're eating healthier, they're doing all these things, right? And you're on the other end and you're still going, Well, what the hell? Like, why am I not feeling better? Yeah, okay. Maybe it's because you are the medicated spouse. And and just so you're aware, when you go, if you ever decide to go off those meds, you're gonna have a shit ton of work that you're gonna have to do if that marriage is still sustained, because the issues you had in the first place of why you went on those meds, they will be there. They will be there when you go off of them. And so here's this crazy ass dichotomy that's happening within marriages when psych meds come into play for either for either of the the spouses. And this this this ties a bit into when we are when we're medicated as a spouse and we are gaslit into believing, right? We we are spellbound, in the words of Mr. Mr. Breggan, right? We are spellbound and we cannot really see what the issues are because we are so med harmed. Then we go communicating to our spouse, you know, you probably have a chemical imbalance too.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 36:04

Well, that's just it. And that's what this research said. Like the the first thing, the first reason that spouses encourage the other is because they have a chemical imbalance. Like talking to them about how, you know, it's a chemical imbalance and it's not your fault. It's you know, all of these things. And I'm like, here's the chemical imbalance doesn't even exist, y'all. Like, but still it is present in these relationships. And I'm thinking the person who is probably telling you you have a chemical imbalance is usually the one who's already medicated, often. And you're the one with the chemical imbalance, by the way.

Dr Teralyn Sell 36:38

Well, in this study, I don't okay, so I'll like I didn't read this. Terry sent this to me, guys. Like, you know, right after I got like doing my business on the Kohler when I was choking the Kohler and figuring out, like, okay, what should the hook be for today? I did a quick peruse of this. So if I'm speaking incorrectly, uh let me know, Terry, because I didn't go through the whole thing. But I didn't either all right. Well, I was wondering myself, I wonder if that's one of the holes in this research, though, is that there's 90, so they did 90 interviews with gay, lesbian, and heterosexual spouses. Of those spouses, I do wonder how many of them were medicated themselves. Yeah, it doesn't really show up. I didn't see it, I didn't see it in there. So to me, that's uh a huge hole in the research. And I didn't go through the discussion point to see if it's in there. Maybe it is. I don't believe that it is. They always leave that part out. But okay, because to me that's a huge confounding variable. Oh, yeah. That's right there, is it's it's a huge hole in the research. Okay, doesn't matter. What I want to read though is it says the majority of gay men and lesbian women promote care by framing mental health problems as largely biochemical, all right, and fixable only with professional care or medicine and the work, which I'm saying doing the work, but it says the work to destigmatize this care. All right. So this research actually went into some gender differentiations when it comes to comes to this topic. Okay, and it also obviously we're we're separating homosexual and heterosexual individuals, and they looked at at different pieces of that, but I think that is fascinating to me.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 38:15

So in this day and age, we are saying to our spouses, you have you've got a chemical imbalance, which is really funny to me because that's like saying to your spouse,

Research On Spousal Pressure

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 38:27

I am better than you because I don't have a chemical imbalance. You do, you do, and that is so. If we go to John and Julie Gottman stuff, that is contemptuousness coming from a position of superiority over your spouse, like that's a predictor of freaking divorce.

Dr Teralyn Sell 38:42

It is, and then guys uh who if you don't know, Terry and I are Gottman trained uh couples therapist, Gottman is a big name in and in couples therapy, so that's where the Gottman comes from. Okay. All right.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 38:56

So and by the way, criticism as well. So if you keep criticizing your spouse over their quote unquote lack of mental health care, that's another predictor of divorce, right? So it's like criticism. So if you are, if you are the spouse saying, Hey, you need help because you are broken, you have a broken brain, and the only way to fix your brain is how I'm telling you to fix it. Go to this therapist that I've already picked out for you, read these podcasts, get on these meds, because oftentimes I will tell you that the partner is going to tell the other person what med to get on because they've probably been on it themselves. Yes, and we all know how prescribing goes, and we have all had many. Well, my wife is on Zoloft or my wife is on you know Lexapro. So what I'll try that, yeah. Yep, that's how it goes every time.

Dr Teralyn Sell 39:52

I don't want to create turmoil in your marriage here, but if you have a spouse or a significant other in a relationship, even who is saying to you, you have a chemical imbalance, there is something wrong with your brain. Okay. I want you to take a really long, introspective, mindful, get inside your body look. Okay, well, how how do I prove that? Yeah. Because you can't, right? Because you can't. You I I I actually I had oh, it's so unorthodox. I had said to somebody many, many, many years ago, um, it was it was I had said to them, I said, well, how would you prove that exactly? We're like, well, it's a chemical imbalance. I mean, I may very well have one. I said, Oh, okay, well, prove it. Say to your spouse, okay, if this is the case, then prove to me that this exists for me. Yes. There's no, you can't, you can't produce a receipt for it. We're arguing about nothing.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 40:58

And now I want to I want to bring this up. Hold on. I want to say this one thing. If your partner is on medication and they have had a distinct negative personality change, and they've done, then they do have a chemical imbalance, and that is something you should bring up. Like, I've noticed since you've been on this medication, you drink more alcohol. I noticed you cause more arguments, you're more irritable, you're more this, you're more that. I've noticed these things since being on the medication. I think you can do that because there is then you're saying, listen, I don't think this is helping. But often what that is met with is that spellbinding thing. No, I'm better now. I am better now. Like, and you're like, but I don't like my assessment is is that you're actually physically acting like you're not better, like you are not improved, you're actually declining, right? So I think there's a lot of different ways to to look at this as well. But what we're saying, it like we've always said, you don't start something because you have a chemical imbalance, you end up with a chemical imbalance once you've started something. So that's that's the bottom line. And I do think that we we do have to address that too. Like if your partner is already on something and they are not doing well, like it is quite okay to say you're not doing well. It's quite okay to say, like, our marriage is not doing well. I'm not feeling okay in my marriage. I'm I'm not I'm not doing well, right? But it's when it's like I'm not doing well because you're not doing well, like I can't be happy because I see you doing all these things and you need to fix your thing so I can fix my happiness after you fixed your thing. That's an incorrect way to look at a relationship.

Dr Teralyn Sell 42:44

I find that resentment drives statements with within this, right? Like if you have a partner who is holding a significant amount of resentment toward the other partner, all right. That often drives here's what you need to do. You need to go see a therapist, you need to go see a professional and maybe get on meds, okay. I I find that a

Chemical Imbalance Claims Challenged

Dr Teralyn Sell 43:11

lot. That that that person's level of resentment and pain that they haven't dealt with is actually what drives their subjective like offerings of what they're doing.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 43:23

But wait, now add this back in. You were the partner that went and got help. Like, I'll just use alcohol as an example. You were the partner that went and now you're sober and you've gotten help, and you are eating healthy and you are interacting differently, and you become a vibrant human being. Your spouse then has also resentment, can have resentment for your for your newly found sober life.

Dr Teralyn Sell 43:49

Man, so you got two layers of this then, right? There's actually like resentment then is really multifaceted because not only are they resentful for all the things you didn't do over the years and how you weren't present, now they're they potentially are resentful for the success and your ability to do it, which is why we go back to saying the same thing. If you are the spouse that is dictating that your partner go do something about what's going on with them, go do the work, go get professional help, read the pod, you know, listen to the podcast, read this book, all those things. If you don't address the things that are going on with you, maybe you resent your spouse significantly. Maybe you got a bunch of trauma that you need to deal with. Maybe you've got to go through and work through all of the years of being angry at your spouse when they were not present, when they were not there, that's still left. Still left.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 44:49

Each each partner has to step out of the system that they're in, right? You can't expect it's so part of the system is the I'm gonna call it the nagging for. your partner to do something different. Like so you that's the part of the circular system. And then when the partner finally does do something different, you're still in the system. You're still trying to you're still doing the same thing you were doing before because you're now not doing quote the work that needs to be done under these circumstances, right? So yeah. So it it is couples is interesting because there's so many dynamics at play. And it is very hard even when you like your couple part of one of your couples loses weight. That's it. Like they went on a weight loss journey and now they're feeling good and they're going to the gym and they're interacting with people differently and you're suddenly left out. You're you're not that important person anymore or the the part of the system that you once were and so you're resenting that they're getting healthy and you're still feeling not right. Yes. I I tell couples all the time like if you're if your partner goes to get therapy and gets help and whatever, you need to do the same. You need to do exactly the same thing. And and also make sure that the therapy is about you not your partner. That is another thing a lot of couples do that when they come individually they talk about their partner instead of themselves. And so if you're going to therapy to do the thing talk it's about you it's not about your partner or the egregious act of your partner. It's about you in those moments and that is doing the work in my opinion is focusing back on yourself. But yeah anyway so I I find it very fascinating that there obviously there's influence and behavior in a couple's you know if you've been a couple for a long time there is definitely influence and behavior where it becomes problematic is if one partner becomes like the all-knowing powerful Oz in the in the relationship because that is contemptuous behavior and that is a predictor of divorce in and of itself so when you start pathologizing your partner diagnosing them with things saying what meds they need to be on all this stuff. And this is why I this is why therapists can't be therapist to friends and family and all these things. Like you literally have to step away from your family when it comes to this stuff because you are not an unbiased participant. And if if your partner doing this, your bias is I feel miserable therefore I need to figure out what's wrong with you. That's your bias. Like my misery means you're doing something that needs to change not my misery means I need to view my life in such a way that I need to make some changes for me and let my partner make the change they need to make and then I get to decide if I still want to be there or not. Right? Like to me it's just gathering information fix yourself and then assess.

Dr Teralyn Sell 47:55

Mm-hmm. Well and you brought up a really good you brought up a point about therapists and the function of going to see a therapist, an individual therapist the yes you're going to talk about your spouse because that is the the context right of what why you're there. It's going to come up you probably have a lot of tumultuous shit that's going on day in and day out in the marriage.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 48:16

What I mean by that is don't go there to talk about the diagnosis of your spouse. Well this is what that's what I that's what I was going to say.

Dr Teralyn Sell 48:23

So I have had a lot of spouses that have also come in to to to tell me and they've seen therapists in the past and they they will say to me well yeah I told my spouse like you are and you have antisocial

Spellbinding, Disconnection, And Blame

Dr Teralyn Sell 48:36

personality disorder and they will say well okay and I'll go well why would you say that to your spouse? Because my previous therapist told me my spouse is an antisocial so I told my spouse that that is a huge red flag.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 48:50

It is one thing for a therapist to kind of talk a little bit about characteristics of things but the therapist should always be bringing it back to you as the client you as the client a therapist should never be sitting there seeing you going well God yeah your yes your husband is pathologically a narcissist your husband your husband has borderline personality disorder and you need to run Jen listen I got a letter probably 12 years ago from a very prominent psychologist in the area that I'm at who was seeing a spouse of one of my clients the letter diagnosed the person I was seeing your client after never having seen them okay and said according to my client this is what your client diagnosis is and what you should be working on with your client and I was like rip rip rip I was like what the fuck and this guy was very prominent in the area as a psychologist and I thought what the fuck dude are you serious right now but that's another you know this is this is that but that's because the spouse went there and only talked about their partner and what was wrong with their partner seeking validation that it was all their partner's problems and not theirs right when I talk when I talk about this with clients because I have a lot of of a lot of clients that I see who are go about on the brink of divorce possibly going through divorce are in this tumultuous space in their marriage okay and when I talk about the spouse all right you're never gonna hear me say yeah your spouse has post-traumatic stress disorder your spouse has PTSD now I may say things like well it could be that there's some pain that your spouse is going through that generalized there's maybe some resentment that they are trying to that they they're working through and you're you're the butt of it you're getting it right now and maybe that's why you hear some of these really like strong mean like almost harassing things that sometimes partners say to each other I said but I don't know that I may say that well it you kind of might have a little bit of a a gaslighting going on and let's talk about where it could be coming from but you're never going to hear me say well yeah your spouse your spouse is a fucking borderline right sounds like they're borderline right never like it it it's even when they bring it up and they're like this because there's a whole big thing about you know everyone's a narcissist blah blah blah I've had so many people over the course of the last five six years since social media came in hot about the narcissist and they're a narcissist and then they they'll kind of pause and seek validation from me that yeah yeah I can see that and I just I don't give it to them.

Dr Teralyn Sell 51:50

Well it's no different it's no different than clients coming into our office and they're like I have this diagnosis, this diagnosis, this diagnosis that okay yeah great I've met you for the first time I don't really care what any of those are because I don't know shit about you. Yep. Like it's no it's no different. And so if you're working with somebody who is validating you or even saying those words, right? It's it's one thing to to kind of talk about the partner your partner's thing things I guess but to put a diagnostic label on them that's dangerous. And that actually is a very scary space for you as a client because you may need to actually consider seeking out a different therapist. Because are you staying with that therapist because all they're doing is agreeing with you and not only they agreeing with you but they're they're diagnostically labeling your spouse which is agreeing with you.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 52:41

Which is agreeing with you run.

Dr Teralyn Sell 52:43

Run that's dangerous. It's very dangerous right and there's it I we could go on about that but we're not gonna have time today.

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 52:51

So I think I think the whole thing is it's okay to show care and concern and you would like if if yeah I mean if Steve broke his arm not so long ago and I was like we ought to get somewhere fast you know whatever. It's okay to show care and concern but it's how you do it. If you're coming from this position of superiority I know everything about mental health care you know that there is because I've been a patient I've been a this I've been a that I take these meds I'm doing it all for

Removing The “Identified Problem”

Therapist Jenn Schmitz 53:16

myself therefore this is the way to go this is what you do. There is more than one way to help someone when they're feeling a certain way. And so I think it is the role and responsibility of couples to approach it with care and consideration but also to know that it's their decision to act, to not act right and so it's also your decision to act or to not act right so your happiness is never based on someone else's outcome nor is it based on someone else's agreement to what you have to say about them. Like you your happiness is an inside job and that is where it is all the time. Now yes can situations make you unhappy and exacerbate pain and things like that of course but your happiness ultimately is yours. Though you are in a system you can be a separate individual from that system and help yourself first all the time and so I don't know I think contempt and criticism come up in this conversation a shit ton. And especially with mental health and you know there's so many there's such manipulative language even in relationships that occur for pushing someone into psychiatric medications pushing someone to go to a therapist like just watch your own manipulation. Watch it and whenever you're saying like you're so miserable you need help because I'm miserable assess your own fucking misery like assess yourself first you know and figure out why you're so miserable too it's likely not just because your partner is looking miserable to you you know yep and if it worked for you it doesn't necessarily mean that that's what they need and it's not a chemical imbalance so stop using that as a as a method of superiority. Yes it's it's your brain is broken and it's okay that your brain is broken but you need to fix your brain.

Dr Teralyn Sell 55:11

Yeah and for all of you armchair spouse therapists out there knock the fuck off like stop stop stopping check yourself before you wreck yourself at the and that is where we close with a 90s rap song boom all right where you're whistleblowing shrinks Dr. Teryl and Therapist Jen and this was the Gaslet Truth Podcast if you have any gaslet truth stories that you want to send us please send them to thegaslit truth podcast at gmail dot com and make sure that you go give us the stars do the things if this conversation pissed you off good maybe it's because you've got some things to get curious about