A Circle of Dignity with Fred Coulter

In this episode of The Dignity Lab, Dr. Jennifer Griggs interviews Dr. Fred Coulter, an ordained minister and professor emeritus. They discuss the concept of dignity and its importance in their lives. Fred shares his journey of self-discovery and the role of dignity in his recovery from addiction.

They also explore the power of vulnerability, belonging, and contentment. The conversation touches on the need for rituals to honor grief and the commodification of purpose in society.

Overall, the episode emphasizes the importance of recognizing and reclaiming our inherent dignity.

Takeaways

• Reclaiming dignity involves recognizing our right to feel safe, be free, and express ourselves without shame or guilt.
• Honoring the dignity of others also honors our own dignity.
• Vulnerability, belonging, and freedom are interconnected with dignity.
• Contentment is about having enough and being enough.
• Society often lacks rituals to honor grief and struggles with dealing with pain.
• Recovery involves recognizing and claiming our dignity, as well as being honest with ourselves.
• Self-forgiveness and healing require vulnerability and acknowledging our brokenness.
• Purpose can become commodified, and society often pressures us to constantly strive for more.
• Finding dignity involves embracing all our feelings and living with them.
• Honesty, vulnerability, and finding supportive people are essential in the journey of self-discovery and reclaiming dignity.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dignity and its Importance
08:17 The Power of Vulnerability, Belonging, and Contentment
25:03 Living with All Our Feelings: Embracing Brokenness and Finding Dignity

Exploring what it means to live and lead with dignity at work, in our families, in our communities, and in the world. What is dignity? How can we honor the dignity of others? And how can we repair and reclaim our dignity after harm? Tune in to hear stories about violations of dignity and ways in which we heal, forgive, and make choices about how we show up in a chaotic and fractured world. Hosted by physician and coach Jennifer Griggs.

For more information on the podcast, please visit www.thedignitylab.com.
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Transcript

Fred Coulter

Learning about dignity and having that helps me in my recovery. That I have the right to all of those things doing with dignity. I have the right to feel safe. I have the right just to be a human being, to be free to think and express myself, not to be shamed or felt guilty about all those things. And then as I work with others in recovery, to look at their dignity and to honor that and when I honor their, as I say, on mine. And so that's been a real sense of belonging and helpfulness and seeing how other people do it.

And so the dignity part, knowing that I always have it, that I don't have to earn it, which also means I don't lose it.

Vanessa Aron

This is the Dignity Lab, a weekly podcast in which we share stories of dignity, its violations. And it's reclamation. Your dignity is your inherent worth or value. Dignity is both essential and vulnerable to harm.

The good news is that no matter who you are, no matter what has happened to you, no matter what you have done, you can reclaim your dignity.

Tune in to hear stories of inspiration, healing, and leadership.

Hosted by physician and leadership coach Dr. Jennifer Griggs.

Jennifer Griggs

Our guest this week is Dr. Fred Colter.

Fred is an ordained minister and professor emeritus at Defiance College. He's also a friend of my husband.

In our conversation, we cover everything from his evolving identity as he moves into retirement. His faith, his ten years of recovery, the power of belonging, contentment, and the ways in which dignity has shown up in his life. We also talk about how our purpose can be commodified, and he has some advice for me at the end. 

After welcoming Fred to the podcast, I asked him how he wanted to be introduced.

Fred Coulter

I would say, you know, if you want to put me as Professor emeritus, finest college just fine. Reverend Dr. Fine Because a lot of those are part of my identity. But being retired, they're not my identity anymore. They're not. But they're still very important.

Couple days after he retired, I went to my Facebook page and just put retired, took down all my little titles and just retired. Didn't even put Professor Emeritus. Just retired.

I realized the downside of my retirement, of giving up that identity is all of a sudden a lot of the shadow work that I repressed and resisted because I was working and I had to get classes and I had to do this and I could put all those off. Well, they're saying they need you say hell, I’m right here.

 And so a lot of times I've been waking up, you know, three or four in the morning with anxious dreams. And so I wake up and I journal. And so I write the dream down, write what it means to me. And then I take to the shredder and shred it. And a lot of ways it's just come to grips, to my mother was to my father was wonderful, loving people, flawed and putting that all together, you know, which also means, you know, I'm looking at my flawed self and putting that holding that together.

Jennifer Griggs

I asked Fred to share how he was introduced to the concept of dignity.

Fred Coulter

Oh, well, I got introduced to your husband, Steve. Steve and I were colleagues at the college, and so at different times we joke about it where I'd say, Hey, Steve, let me come up to your house. I need a play date, you know, so we can have coffee and talk and have a little play date, you know. And two or 3 hours get passed just very quickly.

And they had invited me to your workshop about a year ago. And that really was a transformational experience. And I think one thing about the dignity part and why I said yes and wanted to come to talk to about it today and some in my own life is how I knew all those elements of dignity. But I hadn't connected the dots and put them together in that way.

And when you said that that day a year ago and I'm still still digesting it, making it a part of me that we are born with dignity and it is our right. And I've really spent. I started then. I'm still doing, claiming my dignity. And I have a right to say to somebody else, really, I know you have violated my dignity and either we're going to do something about it, either you're going to change or else I'm just not going to hang around.

And that's been my other part of retirement is, I just don't put myself into situations where I have to put up with things anymore. I've dropped off the committees, not that committees are bad or whatever groups, but you have to sit there and shut up. And I just don't want to shut up anymore.

And before that, in 15 years, I served two churches as a minister and some ordained in the United Church of Christ and still do work with the church and the denomination. That's still an active part of my life. And that started my spirituality and understanding. And so that's why I was introduced to Jung and the wholeness and the shadow. And so that helped me.

And to circle back to dignity, I said, And that's what Jesus was doing. When I look at the, when I look at his life, who he was, what he did, I said he embodied dignity.

And what made, I believe, made him so popular that the times he went around and said to the oppressed people: You're worthy, you belong, you're not on the margins, you're not an outcast, you're you are loved and valuable. And in fact, why don't you come on and follow me?

Jennifer Griggs

Belonging is such an important part of being human.

 Fred Coulter

Well, it's like he knew. He understood. You can't take the Roman Empire on head-on because they will crush you. So he thought of another way to to do that. And so he built he talked about his kingdom as being within that belonging, you belong, you're part of us. And I believe that's that's. That was the attraction to him and the attraction to the early church was that they got together at meals and shared food, shared community, shared belonging. And they all cared for each other. And they said, Wow, this really makes a difference. Let's keep doing it. I feel so much better after getting together.

And so all this in terms of that dignity is that's part of my quest of retiring, is finding those people who give me a sense of belonging that I can just talk to as we're sort of doing now, I think we have our context of time, but there's really not an agenda. We need to say some meaningful things. However, there isn’t okay, Fred, here's point number one, point number two, point number three, point number four. Fred, you didn't do point number three, and that sort of thing. So I've been looking at more and more of opportunities to be with people where there's not an agenda.

Jennifer Griggs

You used the word playdate earlier. What do you think play has to do with dignity, if anything?

Fred Coulter

Oh, has so much to do with it. My interest and my doctor work had to do with human development and families. And inside. Boy, I really had an interest, especially in child development. And Piaget said, play is the work of a child. So play in Dignity gives you and especially when you find in dignity a safe place with somebody psychologically, physically safe, you can play around, you can joke, you can say things, you can be vulnerable. You can reveal yourself.

And so the dignity part allows me to play with instead of, again, instead of looking at dignity like these are rules and these are things I have to live up to, answer, pass. You know all those criteria. I look at them as just, you know, a safe place as where two people can just laugh and enjoy each other's company.

Jennifer Griggs

In addition to play and vulnerability and belonging, I'm also hearing freedom in the things you're thinking about.

Fred Coulter

A real freedom. I'm going to say as much I can say, this is glorious. You know, it's scary, too, because I'm I'm doing things I just haven't done.

Jennifer Griggs

Fred talks about his conversations with a friend who also recently retired and the ways in which their conversations have changed with time.

 Fred Coulter

Both of us are good enough, we can admit. Yeah, I'm anxious about things. I'm worried about that. Or she and I spend some time, we spend a lot of time redefining productivity.

The other part that I hit, probably in my fifties was that I had enough. I love Kurt Vonnegut and there's a story that he was, Kurt Vonnegut was at a cocktail party reception with Joseph Heller (Catch 22), and the host was some big rich guy. And Vonnegut said something to Heller like, Hey, do you realize that this guy just made more in one day than you did on Catch 22 and Heller said yeah? Yeah, but I have one thing he doesn't think. What's that?

Enough. I have enough.

And when I read that, it really affirmed where I was going in my life. I really have enough. And so I've, I catch myself saying, do I need more? No.

Jennifer Griggs

Seems to me like contentment is the hardest thing to find. Chasing contentment feels somehow like a paradox.

What it sounds like you're saying is that there's you're looking at both having enough and being enough.

Fred Coulter

Yes. And that's the scariest part, is being enough for myself because, and that's just part of our society and just, you just at some point, you're just part of the system. If you want a job, if you want a pension, you've got to be part of the system.

Jennifer Griggs

Do you think our present-day world is ready for something different?

Fred Coulter

I, being part of the church especially, I'm in the mainline denomination that is shrinking. When I was ordained in 1980, it had 2.2 million members. We're now down to 800,000. Some of that is because of our polity or the way we govern ourselves. Churches can leave the denomination on their own. We don't have bishops. We’re not real hierarchical.

And people have left because the people who have remained and also put mine in that category, are being very inclusive. And that's the flipside of the dignity lab. Oh, yes, I can claim my right to dignity, but that also says I have to respect other people's dignity.

Jennifer Griggs

I would imagine that in all your roles you have witnessed suffering and sometimes great suffering.

Fred Coulter

We as a society don't know how to deal with people's pain, death, grief. I have seen people who have done everything right in life. And yet that didn't keep them from pain.

You know, to say and especially, I feel back in the eighties, yeah, I worked, each one of my churches worked with the families who experienced sudden infant death syndrome and one family fell apart.

Another got me got involved in the SIDS network and we worked together and I was part of that. And so they did something with it. So at the same time, for the family that fell apart part, and there was other issues around that, but they did say they appreciated how and I worked with them and got to know them and ultimately did the committal service of their daughter's ashes and the grandparents of their family. It's more of a family thing than the church service, but I remember the grandmother saying to me, thank you for leaving out all that God talk about God's will, a better place. You just said this is hard, it's awful. And you just have to sit with it and so that's how I saw people remake their lives. It'd be more in that context, that pain and grief and death and just learning how to sit with it and sit with them.

Jennifer Griggs

That feels like dignity to me, that they were okay, just as they were. They didn't have to earn your compassion. They just were just the way they were.

Fred Coulter

Yeah. There's a woman in my church who was killed in an accident, and her, and I needed to go talk to… This is a prominent family church and the town and all this. And we're making plans for the funeral and everything. And. And the sister was angry because it was a senseless death, you know? And so she, she was saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll go to church. We'll sing a few songs, we’ll hear a few nice words. Then we'll go have a little nice lunch afterwards in the church hall, then we'll go home. And I was like, Yeah, that's about it. But I. Okay. Because that's about all we can do.

Jennifer Griggs

We are overall impoverished in our culture in terms of rituals with, of course, some important exceptions. Yeah, you're right. Our traditions, including our faith communities, don't, I think some better than others, can sit with grief, but we don't have rituals.

Fred Coulter

Or I think also she was angry that she expected that to fix it and make it all better. And I was also willing to say, no, it's not. We just do that. I mean, that's all we do. But, you know, I don't think that's going to make it all better.

Jennifer Griggs

Do you think there are times when rituals can help honor the dignity of the person who is gone?

Fred Coulter

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

My mother's birthday is August 3rd, and usually around August 3rd, my sisters and I text back and forth happy birthday to Mom. She's been gone about ten years, but we all enjoy a little pimento and cheese because that was your favorite. My younger sister said yes with toasted cheese points. Those little triangles of toasted bread. And that's just a ritual to remember her.

And. And I mean, but when and I get a little, oh, misty-eyed and about talking about her now because I'm getting to know her again and I see my mother's very loving, caring. My father was a career naval officer, so he was gone half our lives. And so she had to take care of three kids and a house and all, our lives.

And she did a remarkable job. At the same time, she had mental health issues, just psychotic. And so she would have psychotic breaks and attempt suicide and all these things. And and that's sort of what I learned growing up. And I'm still that's back dealing with is that that was the fifties, sixties, you know, you didn’t talk about those things.

And so so part of my journey and with dignity is giving my mother dignity because, yes, I was very angry with her at different times and we were manipulated. And at the same time, she's also very loving and caring. Yes.

And so that's the ritual of pimento cheese to honor and remember that.

Jennifer Griggs

Thank you for sharing that.

I'm wondering about the role of dignity in recovery. You've been in recovery for ten years now, and I think you've pointed out before we're all in recovery from something. I'd love to hear your thoughts on recovery and dignity.

Fred Coulter

Learning about dignity and having that helps me in my recovery that I have the right to all of those things doing with dignity.

I have the right to feel safe. I have the right just to be a human being, to be free to think and express myself, not to be shamed or felt guilty about all those things.

And then as I work with others in recovery, to look at their dignity and to honor that and when I honor theirs, I also honor mine.

And so that's been a real sense of belonging and and helpfulness and seeing how other people do it. And so the dignity part, knowing that I always have it, that I don't have to earn it, which also means I don't lose it, has really been a good way in my recovery to look at it every day, to say, okay, I have dignity and I can do these things and I can say yes, yeah, I mean, ten years, that's great.

At the same time, I drank for 40 years, so so, you know, my therapist said, yeah, yeah, you can go and make amends or talk about those things to people that you remember you did, those things you remember. You're like, oh, gosh, how about those things I don't?

Yeah. And that's part of where dignity helps because sometimes some of that can be so crushing that you get. And I know people say it happened, you get the you know, forget about it, you know, the effort and this crushed you know, I'm I'm I'm just not humble, I'm humiliated by all that.

Jennifer Griggs

Right. And same route or completely different experience.

Fred Coulter

And so if I'm humiliated, then why? Who cares?

Jennifer Griggs

So you're saying you used the word crushing? That sounds like despair.

Fred Coulter

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I didn't realize. I mean, I was pretty good at faking it or not even faking. Again, like my mother, I’d be loving and caring and helpful and all these things. And also be an alcoholic all at the same time. You could say, fortunately, I didn't lose my job. I was able to function. You know, I felt like a functioning alcoholic, but I experienced despair. I experienced it. I can't stop. In fact, I really don't want to either.

And so it wasn't until I went into recovery that I started to see some hope and see people who have experienced despair and they seem just fine.

And so I learned how to, not despair, actually. My moment was one day when I realized that I, the people in recovery community showed me how to be honest because they were honest with themselves. And I and I realized I wasn't honest with myself.

And what really helped me back was, I thought, well, let's use you as an example, Jennifer. I could say, I'm going to have to go and talk to Jennifer and say, you know, I'm sorry about the way I acted or the things I said, you know, but I'm an alcoholic and it occurred to me the day that I realized I really started getting serious about it, that Jennifer, you always knew I was an alcoholic. The only person I was fooling was me. 

So where I see that dignity part is, boy, that's in me. I got it. I mean, yeah, I deserve I, talking to myself, I deserve to do things that are healthy for me. I deserve to be vulnerable and talk to people about my issues. And for them to say you have to do this, you have to do that. You have to examine your life. No, no, not that.

Because what would happen if I looked at all those awful things, all those mistakes, what would happen to me? And that's that's part of my family of origin.

I mean, that I'm not you know, my father worked very hard to be an officer in the Navy and in fact, enlisted in World War Two and went through a commissioning process and stayed in for 32 years until he was a captain, but there there's just that sense of I can't be vulnerable. I was little and I told myself, you know, yeah, yeah, you just keep pushing forward.

Jennifer Griggs

It's interesting as you're talking about vulnerability and I'm wondering, does vulnerability allow for self-forgiveness?

Fred Coulter

What it is for me is and that's part of my writing and my journaling that I do is about myself. 

 I'm reflecting to myself. I mean, yes, I'm writing about situations, I'm writing about dreams. But I know, I always know it's about me. And it's all like one this morning. It was just it was like I'm walking down the row.

I'm walking down a road. It's like the wintertime around here. Tall trees, mist gray. I'm feeling fine, and I see a person down the road. And I know in dream interpretation that's me, just a person, because I didn't identify it as anybody. And for some reason, I'm carrying a leg, like thigh, knee, calf, you know. But it's and it kind of sits on this side and goes back here so the thighs on the side and for some reason, it’s navy blue, we can go into that at some point. But I'm walking along carrying it and everything's fine. And then but then I turn to the right to go down another road and everything's just fine. And I'm writing this and this didn't cause anxiety or anything.

I mean, it woke me up, but I wrote about it and I thought, maybe I'm taking a spare leg for the journey.

Fred Coulter

I mean, you know, one might give out. Now I'm getting older, so my left hip feels a little achy, feels a little sometimes, maybe, you know, maybe I need a little backup for the journey and my vulnerability says there that and I remember writing it right at the end. Yeah, I'm on the road. It's about healing and just kind of left at that.

But the vulnerability part in this journaling allows me to look at myself and say who I am and what I'm thinking. Or who are these people? And just write right there and admit that I need healing.

I'm still broken in places. I'm still, I don't know, I can find despair pretty fast, you know?

I mean, all the all those things, that I point behind me, the shadow, it's all there, you know, and the times I kind of laugh or I said, well, hey, watch now you despair when you come up and have a seat next to me. Let's have a cup of coffee, you know. Hey, how you doing, Despair? You know, And I kind of joke about it, but it's it's it's just part of me.

And so I think that's the other part of I knew early on in my life, and I just didn't know what to do with it. But I realize now I joke about it because that's that was that's part of my defense mechanisms.

But I also want to say when I really talk about despair sitting next to me, that's me and that's part of my recovery and healing is to say, you know, I get a boatload of despair, okay, and who doesn't? We all got it and it's all here. And I can't make despair go away. I can't do that thing when our society says oh Fred, take the despair course and in three easy steps, you'll eradicate despair. No, I won't. I just learned to live with it. I learned to recognize it. And I think that's where the dignity led, your approach, has really caught me, is that it's really acknowledging all those feelings, they're all there. How do we live with them? It is the real challenge.

Jennifer Griggs

If you had one wish for our listeners, what would it be?

 Fred Coulter

If I was listening when I was younger? Don't afraid to be honest with yourself. Which means you need to find those people that will tell you honestly what's going on and you believe in them so much you will really listen and really take it in. And you gave me that space to look at past relationships with my former wife and all this. And you gave me space to do that, and that helped me to get where I am today. So yes, you are part of that.

Jennifer Griggs

What an honor. Fred, is there one thing? Is there anything I didn't ask you that you hoped I would?

Fred Coulter

Oh, didn't have to ask me but I’ll tell you. One of the podcasts I listen to is two women, probably in their thirties, and what they really push is now we need to find a purpose in our lives, in one that Oh, yes, but you need to pray and to find the purpose that God has for your life. And then you need to start blogging about it, and then you need to form a podcast, and then you need to monetize it with workshops, and then, oh, but don't stop there, there's more. You know, once you have monetized your thing, you need to write books and you need to go on book tours and then you need to have a foundation for your purpose. Oh, but then you need to have your legacy so that when you die, your purpose, whatever that God gave to you, you know, and what they're saying is a lot of work. Why are we falling for this?

Jennifer Griggs

Thank you for this reminder. It occurs to me that purpose can become commodified and we can believe that we're not actually enough.

Fred Coulter

I mean, when you if a question that I'm answering that I wish you'd ask and that sense of just what have I learned? And it's just our society, our economic system says you better be the best or don't let me start.

Jennifer Griggs

Which you like to read the part of the Bob Dylan song your friend Norm shared with you last week?

Fred Coulter

Dylan says: So many roads, so much at stake, so many dead ends, I'm at the edge of the lake sometimes I wonder what it's going to take to find dignity.

Jennifer Griggs

Fred Colter, thank you so much for being on the Dignity Lab.

Fred Coulter

My pleasure. Thank you. Jennifer.

Jennifer Griggs

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Dignity Lab

Hearing Fred, at this chapter in his life, rediscovering and reintegrating creating dignity in all the facets of his life as he moves forward into this new chapter was really powerful.

What were your thoughts as you listened?

We'd love to hear from you. You can contact us on our website, thedignitylab.com.

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Vanessa Aron

This has been The Dignity Lab with Dr. Jennifer Griggs. If you have experienced a dignity violation or have a dignity dilemma and want to be a guest on our show, contact us through our website www.thedignitylab.com. Guests may remain anonymous.

And if you're a leader wanting to up-level your leadership with a small community of like-minded people, please visit our website to learn more about our group program for leaders.

Our website also has free downloadable resources, more information about our guests can be found in each episode's shownotes.

This season of The Dignity Lab is produced by me, Vanessa Aron. Pete Carty is our audio engineer and sound designer. Kaci Frenette is our executive assistant, and Chase Miller composed our theme music. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional advice, diagnosis or treatment.

The content discussed is intended to explore and raise awareness about dignity. Sensitive topics may be discussed that could evoke strong emotions, so discretion is advised. Listeners are encouraged to engage the material with empathy.

Remember, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.