Labor Day Revisit: Leading with Dignity with Donna Hicks

Welcome back to The Dignity Lab. This Labor Day, as we celebrate the dignity of work and workers, we’re replaying a vital conversation with Dr. Donna Hicks, an expert on the inherent value we all possess.

Dr. Donna Hicks, an expert on dignity, discusses the concept of dignity and its role in conflicts. She defines dignity as our inherent value and worth as human beings and describes how vulnerable our dignity is to violations. Dr. Hicks describes her research on the elements of dignity. She emphasizes the importance of treating others with dignity and the power of connection and love in human relationships. Dr. Hicks also explores the impact of power on dignity and the need for leaders to understand and honor the dignity of their followers. She concludes by discussing the potential for personal growth and healing through the recognition and restoration of dignity.

Whether you're a new listener or revisiting this episode, join us in reflecting on the dignity inherent in our work and in ourselves. Share your thoughts and any new understandings with us at thedignitylab.org. Enjoy this special Labor Day replay.

Guest Contact

• Website
• LinkedIn Profile
• X Profile

Episode Resources

• Dignity: Its Essential Role in Resolving Conflict by Donna Hicks
• Leading with Dignity: How to Create Culture That Brings Out the Best in People by Donna Hicks

Takeaways

• Dignity is our inherent value and worth as human beings, as well as our vulnerability to having that dignity violated.
• The 10 elements of dignity include identity, recognition, inclusion, acknowledgement, safety, fairness, independence, hope, understanding, and accountability.
• Treating others with dignity is essential for creating positive and meaningful connections in relationships.
• Leaders have a responsibility to understand and honor the dignity of their followers, as well as create policies that uphold dignity.
• Recognizing and restoring dignity can lead to personal growth, healing, and the development of effective relationships at work and loving and connected relationships in our lives and in our world.

Exploring what it means to live and lead with dignity at work, in our families, in our communities, and in the world. What is dignity? How can we honor the dignity of others? And how can we repair and reclaim our dignity after harm? Tune in to hear stories about violations of dignity and ways in which we heal, forgive, and make choices about how we show up in a chaotic and fractured world. Hosted by physician and coach Jennifer Griggs.

For more information on the podcast, please visit www.thedignitylab.com.
For more information on podcast host Dr. Jennifer Griggs, please visit https://jennifergriggs.com/.
For additional free resources, including the periodic table of dignity elements, please visit https://jennifergriggs.com/resources/.

The Dignity Lab is an affiliate of Bookshop.org and will receive 10% of the purchase price when you click through and make a purchase. This supports our production and hosting costs. Bookshop.org doesn’t earn money off bookstore sales, all profits go to independent bookstores. We encourage our listeners to purchase books through Bookshop.org for this reason.

Transcript

Jennifer Griggs: Hello and welcome to the Dignity Lab. We're recording this on Labor Day weekend. Labor Day, observed the first Monday in September in the United States, has its roots in the late 19th century labor movement.

The holiday originated from the efforts of labor unions to celebrate workers' contributions and advocate for better working conditions. The first unofficial Labor Day celebration took place in New York City on September 5, 1882, organized by the Central Labor Union. 

After several states adopted the holiday, it became a federal holiday in 1894 when President Grover Cleveland signed it into law, partly in response to the deadly Pullman strike. While initially focused on honoring the achievements of American workers in the labor movement, Labor Day has evolved over time to become a general celebration marking the unofficial end of summer, often celebrated with parades, picnics, and barbecues.

Despite the shift, the holiday continues to serve as a reminder of the historical struggles and accomplishments of the American labor movement. Workers have dignity. Work has dignity. This Labor Day, we're replaying a previous episode, our conversation with Dr. Donna Hicks. 

The first time I heard Dr. Hicks was on a podcast episode several years ago. I then read both of her books and became a scholar of dignity. Everything changed for me. Everything changed for me. I'd been working with people who wanted to forgive serious harms in service of their best life. The concept of dignity helped all of my work fall into place, taking everything I've done as a physician, coach, leader, parent, and occupant of the world to an entirely different level. 

If you're a new listener, my conversation with Dr. Hicks will help you to learn more about dignity, your inherent worth or value, and that of others. And if you're a longtime listener, you may remember this episode from the last time you heard it. What has changed in your understanding of dignity since you started listening?Our guess is that you will hear things from this episode you haven't heard before. How does this episode relate to the dignity of our work and ourselves and others? 

We love hearing from you. You can contact us through our website, thedignitylab.org. Enjoy.

Jennifer Griggs: Today’s guest is Dr. Donna Hicks. Dr. Hicks is an Associate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, where she has worked in international conflict resolution. In this podcast, we discuss dignity and its elements, the origins of conflict, the importance of understanding power and its role in dignity violations and repair, and love.

I'd love to have you start with telling us your definition of dignity. 

Donna Hicks: Well, that's a good place to start because I've thought a lot about that definition having researched the topic of dignity. You know, once I realized that this was what I needed to do was to figure out the role dignity plays in conflicts and how to understand it, how to use it, I went into the literature to try to find a definition. And I…it took me to the philosophers and theologians and they were going back and forth and back and forth with this sort of analytical approach to what dignity is, what it isn't. And I thought, whoa, no, wait a minute. This is way too complicated. I need a really simple approach to this topic. And I need a simple definition because what I discovered in working with parties in conflict was that the dignity issue came up when people were feeling really emotionally upset and triggered. And you know, when people are in that mind space, you can't be analytical with them. And so I thought, okay, let's figure out how to talk about this in such a way that even little kids can understand it. So after several back and forths, reading article after article, I realized that it’s…dignity is basically our inherent value and worth as human beings.

We all enter the world with dignity, with this inherent value. And at the same time, I added another piece to it. And that was that we also have an inherent vulnerability to having that dignity violated and assaulted and injured. So even though we have this incredible experience of life and that of course we're all valuable, of course we're all worthy, we also are very, very prone to having that dignity not honored and not seen. So it's our inherent value and worth, but also our inherent vulnerability. 

Jennifer Griggs: Where does dignity live in us?

Donna Hicks: It's the center. It is the center. I mean, it's, you know, some people call it the soul. This is where dignity lives…in our soul. It's where we human beings feel things in the most profound way. And I think heart and soul, both. I think it could be metaphorically thought of as both of those things. 

Jennifer Griggs: The simplicity of this definition is indeed accessible to a child. And as you point out, dignity needs to be distinguished from things that are acquired, such as respect.

Donna Hicks: Exactly, I knew you were gonna say that because whenever I give a talk, I always ask my audience, what do you think dignity is? And Jennifer, the very first thing they say is respect. And it's… as if it were one word, dignity and respect. And I have to say it, you know, I tell them, look, I think it's very different from respect and here's how. And I said, you know, I was, when I was working in these international conflicts and the parties would say to me, We were sitting at those tables and we were demanding respect. And I thought at the time, I thought, whoa, you can’t demand respect. Respect has to be earned. But I say, and I would tell them, I said, I think what you really want to be saying is that you demand to be treated with dignity. You demand to be treated like a human being that has value and that has worth, and that you can demand. But respect is just a bridge too far. Because when we say we respect somebody, it's like, oh, I admire that person so much. They did something so important that I want to be like that person. Or, you know, it's just, it's another, it's another human experience. Whereas dignity, we all have it. It's in our DNA. There's no question. And yes, we deserve to be treated that way, but you know what? Even though we were all born with dignity, Jennifer, we're not born knowing how to act like it. 

Jennifer Griggs: So true.

Donna Hicks: So we have to learn it.

Jennifer Griggs: Yes. Would you tell us how you first became acquainted with dignity? 

Donna Hicks: It's an interesting story, I have to admit. I was sitting at those tables. It didn't matter whether it was in the Middle East or in Asia and Sri Lanka and Cambodia or South America and Colombia, or even US Cuba dialogues that I was doing. What would happen typically every single time, and it didn't matter where we were in the world doing these dialogues, people would be sitting there, the parties would be sitting there trying to work out the political issues that divided them. And they would be going back and forth, back and forth, and all of a sudden somebody would explode, have this big emotional reaction.

And I would look at my co-facilitator and I said, we've got to pay attention to that. What's behind that? And he said, no no no no, don't talk about that. And so would…I tucked it away. But as a psychologist, I'm very interested in what's not being said, just as much as I'm interested in what's being said. And these emotional reactions would go, I mean, I always talked about them as we're having two conversations at the table, the one about the politics and the other one is this emotional tsunami under the table that has so much force and so much capacity for upheaval in the process that we were trying to take people through. 

So anyway, to make a very long story short, this happened everywhere. And I realized once…at one time I said, okay, I was doing this facilitation alone. And I said, look, and I saw the explosion. And I said to the people who, the parties, I said, look, something just happened. It was a profoundly emotional reaction and we need to talk about this.

And they looked at me and they said, emotion? This isn't about emotions. This is about politics. This is about justice. This is about being…. I said, OK, OK, sorry. Sorry, wrong word. I'm sorry. So then I started thinking about what other word could I use? How else could I describe this? So I went back home to Harvard and I started studying trauma.

And I convened a group from all over the university, people who are specialized in trauma. And we had a discussion about what the role it would be playing in these conflicts. And they would say, all the experts said, oh yeah, of course, they're so traumatized by living in conflict for over 20 years. And so I went and figured out, they helped me figure out, how to address it. And I, the same thing happened, but in a different place. I think it was Sri Lanka. And the same exact thing happened. And when the outburst took place, I said, you know what, can we stop a minute because I'm sensing there's a lot of trauma in the room here. I'm sensing that there's a deep sense of injury here. Could we talk about those traumas that you've been through? And they said, trauma? No, this isn't about trauma. This is about justice. This…and… so okay. Two times, Jennifer, I'm like striking out. I have one more chance to get this. And I remember I'm just walking down the street one day and I'm thinking, what, what can I do? How can I address this issue? And then, and I said to myself, what they would want to be saying to one another is, How dare you treat us this way? Can't you see we're human beings? Can't you see we're suffering and you're doing nothing about it? And so the next thing that came into my mind was, this is about their dignity. This is about not even being seen as a human being in these conflicts. And so that word hit me like an epiphany. And that's how the word came to me.

And so in relation to this, anyway, in relation to the conflicts. And so I tried it out. I tried it out the next time I was in Columbia, actually, mediating a conflict. And I was supposed to go there and do a communication skills workshop. And so I said to the people, I said, look, I've been doing these conflict dialogues for many, many years now, and the same thing keeps happening. I believe there's a human dimension to what's keeping you apart, and I have a feeling it's about dignity. I have a feeling it's about assaults to your dignity. That's why this feels so intractable. And would you all be willing to talk about ways in which your dignity had been assaulted over the years in this conflict?

Well, Jennifer, thank God, because that was the third time and I hit a home run. The word resonated. They loved the idea of talking about their dignity. And they would even say to me, Well, this isn't just about my dignity, this is about my ancestors' dignity. This has been passed down to us, this narrative about our assaulted dignity. So,...and that's how it all started.

That's really how it all started. And we did a two-day workshop, and they all, they were basically talking to each other again. And at the end, this one general we were working with, this one general came up to me and said, Donna, I've got to hand it to you. I was a little skeptical in the beginning about this, what you, you know, Harvard person is coming to tell us how to solve our conflict. He said, but honestly, you really did create a foundation of dignity for us to rebuild our relationship, and thank you. And then he said, maybe even more important than that, I believe you saved my marriage. 

So what he's telling me is that, oh my gosh, I think I might've been violating my wife's dignity all these years. And so it was at that point that I realized this isn't just about intractable conflicts. This is about all of us. Nobody likes to be treated as if they don't matter. Nobody likes to have that horrible crushing feeling of being treated as less than and unworthy. So that really exploded my whole goal and set of expectations about the power of this word. it's truly a way to help people heal from those wounds because when I say to them, look, you're feeling bad, not because you are bad, but because something bad happened to you. And making that distinction for people, that oh, of course you feel bad. You had your dignity assaulted and it externalizes the issue. It takes it outside of them and they can say, Yeah, I was harmed. That is exactly what happened. And that's when the healing process begins. 

Jennifer Griggs: Yes, I've seen that myself in doing forgiveness work. Without the concept of dignity, it is difficult for people to understand why certain things hurt and furthermore, how to move forward after that. Being able to name dignity and to recognize dignity violations seems like it can be a way to change both ourselves and others. 

You know, being a researcher myself, I'm really interested in how you've conducted your work to identify the 10 elements of dignity. Can you tell us more about that? 

Donna Hicks: Yes, so my goal was to, I mean, my bigger goal, broader goal, the macro goal, was to try to figure out a way to reduce the human suffering that was taking place between these parties and people, and even in any kind of relationship. Because when your dignity is violated, it creates suffering that, I mean, very little else has such an impact. And so I thought, okay, how can I make this word practical for people? How can I help them see in their everyday lives what dignity looks like? What it looks like if you are treated with dignity? Or what does it look like when you're not treated with dignity? 

And so I decided to interview people and I come in contact with people from all over the world in my...you know, courses that I taught and I actually traveled a lot all over the world and did all a significant number of interviews where I asked people, all ages, different cultures, you know, I asked them to tell me a story about a time when they felt their dignity had been honored and a story about a time when they felt their dignity had been violated.

Well, funnily enough, the parties, I mean, the people everywhere, no matter where I went, had a hard time coming up with ways when they felt their dignity was honored. They had just tons of stories about when dignity was violated. And so what ended up happening when I did my, actually my graduate student did this, but the analysis and look, there were these threads of and patterns of responses that came from the stories, came from the stories. And they were all very, very similar. And I thought, oh my gosh, because I was expecting that I was gonna find cultural differences in the way people describe dignity and their experience of it or lack of experience of it. And so when I found these 10 patterns, which have become the 10 elements of dignity, I thought, oh my gosh, I think what we stumbled upon here is a universal aspect of the human experience, because the context might be different in these stories, but the emotional impact was the same. And so I came up with these 10 ways, the 10 elements of dignity. 

Jennifer Griggs: Donna then went through the elements of dignity that she’s identified throughout her interviews.

Donna Hicks: So the first one that came up was about identity. People wanted their identity accepted, no matter who they were, no matter their race, their religion, their ethnicity, their sexual orientation, their physical capability, and gender, certainly. And so I thought, whoa, this is really who people feel like they are and they wanna be accepted. They don't wanna be discriminated against. And recognition was another one. People wanted to be recognized for their unique qualities, their way of life, and as this entered the workplace, it's also…people wanted recognition for doing a good job. Like thank you, if you're the boss, I want to hear you say, oh, Donna, that was wonderful. Thank you for doing such a good job. So that's another one.

Inclusion, of course, you know, we do diversity, equity and inclusion workshops. It's part of the whole culture of the workplace. And so people want a sense of belonging. They want to feel like they're connected to the organization. They just want that feeling of belonging, and acknowledgement is another really powerful one. You know, I spent time…amazing, precious time working with Archbishop Desmond Tutu. And one of the things I learned from him was how important it is to people to feel like they have acknowledgement of the suffering that they've endured when someone violates their dignity.

And I can't even say enough about that because just hearing somebody say to you, let's say you had a bad experience and one of your friends just says to you, Oh, Jennifer, that was horrible what happened to you, nobody should have gone through that. That's so wrong. Hearing that also begins the healing process. But safety, safety is a real big one. It's one of the biggest, in fact, it surprised me how, and I'll say more about that in a minute.

Fairness, people want to be treated fairly, you know, of course. Independence, people want freedom. They want to have a sense that there's hope and possibility for their lives. They don't want to be restricted in any way. And certainly in the workplace, this boils down to not wanting to be micromanaged. People want to be able to do their jobs in the way that they feel is best for them. 

And understanding, this was such a powerful one–being judged. I hate that judgment when somebody doesn't even know who I am. They don't even know what my experience, my life experience has been like and I get judged because of a some kind of a stereotype or something like that. So gaining a deeper understanding of people want and benefit of the doubt. People want to be thought of as having, you know, integrity.

And finally, accountability. Let's say somebody violates your dignity, you want an apology, you want them to come and say, hey, I'm sorry, I should never have done that. And the apology has one more step to it. It's, and I'm gonna work really hard at not doing that again. I'm gonna really try not to do that to you again. So these 10 elements, you know, I think of them, Jennifer, as guidelines for good relationships.

Jennifer Griggs: Thank you. There's so many examples where what we see in the world, we can also see in our families. You know, restricting somebody's autonomy can begin even when a child is old enough to put on their own clothes and choose their own outfit. We can violate a child's autonomy. We can do that with our young adult children. We can do it with our parents when we start to restrict and, you know, as an oncologist, I would hear people say, the thing I don't want is to be a burden to my family. I think that's true, but I also think they want to maintain their autonomy, and that's where there's grief, you know, as people get frail–is around autonomy, as well as a whole host of other of the elements you've mentioned. 

We’re going to take a short break. You’re listening to The Dignity Lab.

Jennifer Griggs: Welcome back. If you’re just joining us, I’m here today with Donna Hicks. Dr. Hicks is an Associate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, where she has worked in international conflict resolution and has done foundational work in the area of dignity. 

Can we talk about power and dignity? If you think about leaders who are in power, it strikes me that it takes very little for a leader to violate dignity. 

Donna Hicks: Yes, and I've worked with so many leaders, Jennifer, of all kinds, military leaders, political leaders, and organizational leaders, and educational leaders, and what I find most of the time, I have to tell you that these leaders are good people. They don't want to harm their followers or their employees.

The problem is that the ignorance surrounding this issue of dignity is so enormous. You would think something so basic to the human experience that we would be studying this. We…we would have our young kids learning it in, you know, primary schools and secondary schools, and not to mention universities, but we don't, there's no courses in dignity and how we treat one another. And yet, as I showed you and with, or as I spoke of, with the interviews that I did, it was a universal human yearning. We all wanna be treated as if we matter. And yet these leaders had no, and you know, they would say to me, Jennifer, you’ll love this. They would say to me, oh, well, yeah, tell us about your dignity work. And he said, you know, I've got to just say that one of the leaders would say to me, you know, I just want to say at the outset that we, we are, we use evidence-based interventions here and I said, Oh, you want evidence about dignity? 

I said, okay, I'll give you some evidence. And so I roll out the neuroscience literature and I said, I have a wonderful slide that shows this. And I say, so here's what we're finding about dignity. This is what we're discovering as hard scientists, as neuroscientists, social neuroscientists.

What they're finding is that when people have a physical injury and they wire their brains, put them in fMRIs, they put these subjects in fMRIs and they look at what parts of the brain get illuminated during certain social situations. When people have a physical injury, the ancient amygdala, the limbic system gets fired up, right? Of course, when we have that kind of pain, physical pain, it hurts like crazy. Of course, it's going to show up in that area. But what they also have demonstrated is that a wound to one's dignity, an assault to one's dignity affects the same exact area as if you were experiencing…the same limbic area, the amygdala, the same areas if you're experiencing a physical injury.

So I said, okay, you've got all kinds of policies here where people can't, you know, injure each other physically. You're very careful about that. Well, if the brain doesn't know the difference between an injury to its dignity and a physical injury? Don't you think you need to be paying attention to this? How people are treating one another? And especially, especially people in leadership positions because they have the power, they have the authority. Not only do they interact with people interpersonally and it's great if they honor people's dignity, but they also create policy that could be violating of certain groups' dignity. You know, let's say just for one very obvious example, pay inequity between men and women. That's always an example of a structural indignity, what I call a systemic indignity, that is taking place in an organization. So you know, I said, if leaders don't have an understanding, a deep understanding of what's going on here for human beings, then even good people with good intentions will violate dignity and harm their workers. We don't want that, or their workers or their followers, whatever. We don't want that. In fact, as you know, do no harm is a mantra in the medical space, but this is true for any leader. But we don't want it…well, ideally, they have that moral conviction that they don't want to do harm.

So if we're not allowing physical, you know, people physically beating each other up, we shouldn't be allowing people to beat up on each other's dignity either. 

Jennifer Griggs: Such a good point. Those in power can be even careless. So, careless with policies, careless with a conversation and not recognizing the role that they have as a leader. That something said in a flippant way between peers is very different. So children can, for example, I love taking it down to children because everybody's been there. So children can tease each other as long as it's done with an understanding that they're equals, but if a teacher teases a child, it might be the same joke, but because they have power, it has a different depth of the injury.

Donna Hicks: It's like, especially with kids, it's an early imprint of when somebody, whether it's a caretaker or a teacher or somebody in a position of power with the children, who you know, violates the kids' dignity, that stuff stays with them forever. Because it's, especially when you're a precognitive age, if you're a little kid and you experience a wound to your dignity, either by being shamed or whatever it is that stays with them. I mean, Jennifer, I had a, a military guy in a workshop once, and he was talking to the group about a time when he was little, because I asked them to think about the early imprints of your, in your dignity, when were, when, when did you have it, um, violated that you're staying stays in your mind and this guy, this military, I think he was like a Colonel or something in his fifties. He was in the group saying, well, you know, as a kid, as a little kid, I had a stutter. And my teacher would make fun of me every time, and I would stand there frozen. He said, tears coming down my eyes. He was probably, he said in kindergarten and the more she, you know, lashed out at him and shamed him, the worse it was for him, the more he stuttered. So this, the impact is, is really astonishing at an early age, but you know, it's also astonishing as adults. We hate it too, as adults. 

Jennifer Griggs: Oh yes. Humiliation, being excluded, feeling unsafe, feeling we don't belong. All of these things can make us not want to be in our job or be in our community or our families. And people have choices to flee or ….

Donna Hicks: Fight. 

Jennifer Griggs: Fight, yes. You brought up a leader who recalled being humiliated as a child. And I'm thinking, you know, in your work and in conversations about dignity, we know that people who've been hurt hurt others. And there's a tenderness that we can have towards people who hurt others when we recall them as children. But the thing that I want to talk about next is cruelty. How do we handle, like where do the limits of tenderness end when we see a leader who's being cruel? 

Donna Hicks: Yeah, I mean, I think not to get too soft on you here, Jennifer, but I think the person had to have lived a loveless life, whether it's a child or an adult, someone who can inflict that kind of cruelty doesn't have any natural empathy. And I think, and you know all the biologists tell us that the evolutionary biologists anyway, tell us that we're wired for empathy. You know, we're wired as young adults for empathy, but it has to be experienced. You have to have a good experience with someone in order for those…empathy, they're called mirror neurons, in order for them to develop and become activated. So if you have a situation, you know, where a person has no experience of that love and connection and empathy… But we need that experience that love of loving connection and ability to sort of feel with others through the development of our mirror neurons. And it's the times of war bring out this cruel element.

But it isn't limited to that. You can see cruel leaders in the corporate setting, but I have to say that my experience is that they are in the minority for sure. Most people, when they start learning about dignity and even learning about their own early experiences of having their dignity violated, they realize how much trauma they've endured over the years. And you know I say to them, look, you need some healing. I'm very outspoken with these leaders if I hear about a cruel situation or one where they're just unconsciously, even in their unconsciously violating dignity. And again, I told you straight in the beginning that this is something that has to be learned. It doesn't come naturally. Even good people with good intentions violate dignity. So we do have to learn it. I had to learn it. I mean, I consider myself a recovering dignity violator. And, you know, I have this organization in Boston called Dignity Violators Anonymous and anybody is welcome. You can come.

No, but truly, I think if we're honest with ourselves, I think we've all had some situations where we're not all that proud of the way we treat other people. And once we hear about this and once we learn the simple steps, well, simple, the 10 ways that people wanna be treated, if they feel their dignity has been recognized, it really helps. It really helps give people this practical knowledge, really practical knowledge. Because not only are we not born knowing how to do this, we're not really born practicing it either. We're born to practice it. We have to, definitely, have to learn it. 

Jennifer Griggs: It's like as if our ancient brain sees scarce resources, and dignity feels scarce, but of course it's not. You know, It's an uncountable noun. There's enough dignity to go around. I love the way you describe that it seems as if everybody's redeemable or nearly everybody is redeemable although it might not be the people that they lead who need to help them heal. There needs to be almost an intercessor to help them heal.

Donna Hicks: Yeah.

Jennifer Griggs: That you see hope and redemption for everybody once they become familiar with the concept of dignity and have their wounds healed. That's really quite beautiful.

Donna Hicks: That's been my experience, Jennifer, that if people feel safe enough to have a conversation about what they have endured over the years with their dignity violations. And, you know, there's something really quite phenomenal that happens and when we start using the word dignity around people who have, are sort of typically, violators, one of the things that I've learned is introducing this language kind of takes the shame out of looking at that behavior and that the way they treat people. Because shame is the worst. You know, we have, I mean, there's some friends of mine who've done some research on humiliation and shame, and they showed that we have a primal fear of shame and of looking bad in the eyes of others.

It's primal, it comes from way back. And because, of course, if we look bad in the eyes of others, then we might not survive because you know we need each other to, we need to look good in the eyes of others to maintain our connection, so when that breaks down and the shame takes over, oh man, then it's really, really hard. So what I try to do with that word dignity is to not only use the language, but to say, hey, look, you didn't know this. You know? You weren't aware, nobody. I had to educate myself. The reason I'm here with you is because I'm just sharing what I've learned. I'm just, I'm as guilty as you feel right now. I've had to make amends with people all the time. So, you know, taking the shame out makes it so much easier to look at.

Jennifer Griggs: You're absolutely right. When we’re wrong, we often say we’re mortified. which comes from the same root word as mortal, meaning that we die. This is why we see people cry when they're called out on things… because of that shame. I love the way you bring up the importance of education without shame. That's how we make ourselves better tomorrow than we are today… is by not wallowing in our shame, but by seeing what we can do to restore the dignity of others and thereby our own. 

Donna Hicks: And the relationship, you know, restore it, like you said, restore the broken relationship. And I think giving people a sense of possibility, like there is hope here. Even I, one can say to oneself, even I who've done really horrible things, I have the power within me to make a change. I can do this. How often do you hear people get stuck in this mindset that I can't change, that I was just born this way? I can't, I can't. Oh yes you can. Oh yes you can. And in fact, the literature is absolutely clear that if you make a choice, if you decide that you want to improve your relationships with other people, and you embrace this dignity concept, it happens quicker than you think, you know? 

Jennifer Griggs: So can you tell us a story about somebody who was able to turn change and lead with dignity?

Donna Hicks: Oh, well, I mean, I have so many, but this one story that comes to mind is of when I was working in this corporation and the manager was a really great guy, kind of goofy guy, nice personality and everything. At the same time, he had a way of joking with his direct reports with the people he led. He had a way and that really wasn't funny.

He was the only one laughing. And so when I met with his team, they would all say, oh, you know, he's a great guy, but he violates our dignity all the time by making these stupid senseless jokes that are embarrassing to us. And so I did a session, a feedback session with them, the direct reports and him. And I prepared the direct reports on how to give feedback., and they delivered this feedback to him. And they did it in such an artful and beautiful way. They said things like, you know, our relationship with you is so important to us. We really wanna have a good relationship and we love our job. We love what we do here with you.

So we have to tell you something that is getting in the way of that good relationship continuing. And I'm sure they would say, I'm sure you're not aware of the impact of what you do sometimes on us. So, you know, it's a face-saving way there. So this guy said, well, what was it? And then they told him and he sat there a little bit stunned, you know, because we're not used to having a mirror held up to us. We're not used to it. And he finally, because I was preparing, I had prepared him to receive the feedback too. And one of the things he said was to them at the end, first of all, he said, thank you very much. I'm going to work so hard at not doing that. I have to, you have to help me. He said, remind me if I… if I slip, you know and so they were kind of laughing about that.

And then he said at the end, you know, I really give you credit for telling me this because I know how hard it is to speak up to your boss if something bad happens, you know, if you're, if you're not feeling comfortable, I know how hard this is. So I just want to tell you, I appreciate your courage and your willingness to care enough about me to tell me that's what he said. 

Jennifer Griggs: Well, the way they approached it with your preparation was they gave him the benefit of the doubt. And that's really key ,you know, even though the impact was not what they wanted or he wanted, they did give him the benefit of the doubt. And I wonder even if he had intended to upset people being given that benefit of the doubt helped him rise up and act with dignity in that interaction. 

Donna Hicks: See, that's a real key component of giving feedback in terms of, what are the elements do we have to be conscious of doing? And just like you said, giving people the benefit of the doubt is one of the most helpful ways of enabling people to see what they can't see, but what everybody else can see. 

Jennifer Griggs: It's so hard for people to feel safe to do that. But when a leader makes it safe, you almost wonder, could this have happened sooner? And we put it off until our dignity is so violated that the relationship's almost not worth saving. And if only we could have these courageous conversations earlier, how much more we could get done at work and enjoy our work and enjoy the people we work with.

Donna Hicks: I agree with you. And it's part of it's…again…it's ignorance. We don't know how to do that artfully. And in fact, most criticism usually ends up being given as a weapon, you know, to get back at people. It's criticism, it feels very bad. It feels horrible. So if we can reframe the whole experience of giving someone feedback as a learning opportunity, because we all have blind spots, every single one of us, and others can see what we can't see. So we need that feedback in order to grow and to be better at being in relationships with our people. So it's a gift. I see it as a gift. And the more we can reframe that whole experience as a learning opportunity and a gift from people then it gets easier. It definitely gets easier over time. 

Jennifer Griggs: Yes, I couldn't agree more. So what's the relationship—as we talk about gifts—what’s the relationship between dignity and love? 

Donna Hicks: Oh, well, I think, I think it is…I think dignity is love and because, in my mind, love is about being in a connection with someone else. Doesn't have to be an intimate connection. It can be, you know, somebody that you meet at the grocery store and you have a nice interaction with. Love is, in my mind, the ability to connect with others. It's a natural state that we are all born with. We're born for this, this kind of empathy and connection. And if...if that gets interrupted, that whole process of being able to connect in that way, if it gets interrupted by dignity violations, because boy, I'll tell you, the first thing that goes when you get your dignity violation is a connection with that person. So for me, connection is love. That's what love is. It's connection. And the fastest way of making a connection with another person is to honor their dignity. So it's a roadmap to connection, to human connection. And that's how I frame it now all the time. And if you want to experience or have a loving experience with someone, and it doesn't have… I'm not talking about romantic love. I'm talking about just human love, how to humanly connect with another person where you both feel this positive resonance. One of the researchers that I follow is Barbara Fredrickson and she talks about love 2.0 and that love happens in the connection. But that connection does require some work. You do, and it's, if you start treating people with dignity, you're gonna have all kinds of connections, all kinds of experiences of love on a daily basis.

Jennifer Griggs: And that's what we all want…to be connected to others. To be seen, to belong. 

Donna Hicks: All of that. 

Jennifer Griggs: As we closed our conversation, I asked Donna what’s next for her. 

Donna Hicks: You asked me that in advance and I have to say, I'm grateful to you for having asked me that question because all along, you know, I'm thinking, well, you know, you've made your contribution here, Donna. You've written two books. You've got this and … and you're giving talks, you're doing workshops, you're doing all this stuff, just take a breath. But then when you asked me that connection in an email, I realized that there is something else that's knocking at my door. And that something else is, having observed the way people react when I introduce this dignity work to them, there is a common reaction. And that is, you know, when I tell people, hey, look, you know, you have dignity no matter what, you know, you are born with it. Nobody can take it away. And I, you know, I usually tell the story about Tutu and how Tutu taught me that…never to tell people that they can have their dignity taken away from them because it's always in our hands. It might be injured. We might get assaulted having our dignity violated, but we never lose it. Don't ever think we lose it, he said to me. And so once I get to that point with people and they really say to me, like, I've got dignity? I'm worthy no matter what? I don't have to do anything to be worthy? I say no. It's already in there. And basically what we have to do is excavate it, dig it out because it's been buried by all kinds of faults, information about who we are, what we're…we have to excavate that dignity and liberate it. And so I'm watching this process of liberation in people and it's young and old, I'm telling you, it's young and old. It doesn't matter.

And then, so I was thinking that there's something deep about that awareness of dignity. There's something that's almost nonverbal. When I see that there's something that lights up, it's like a light comes emanating from their being. And I thought, there's another kind of knowledge in there in the human experience of dignity. There's something that's not fact-based.

You know, we've had learned all this intellectual stuff for years and years and years. And my dignity was so buried underneath all that intellectual knowledge that it took me personally a long time to get in touch with it. But it wasn't anything that I did verbally. It was almost like a spiritual experience of recognizing, yeah, I've got dignity, it's there. And at the same time, so does everybody else, because I'm no different from anybody. I'm a human being. It's our highest common denominator to want to experience that dignity. So what I'm thinking about now is figuring out a way to help people recognize that we have a deeper sense of knowing, deeper than the facts that we learn from degrees and school and all that. There is a deeper ancestral, almost, knowledge of what it means to be a human being. And it's all about connection. You said it. It's about love and connection and the power that we have when we live our life looking for connection, looking for love and connection and being successful at it. Because it's nonverbal. It's not something you learn in a book. It's something we experience.

It's the experience of ourselves as human beings with tremendous value and worth. I'm putting words to it now, but I'm talking about something nonverbal. And I don't know, maybe it's understanding all those deeper connections that we have to not only each other, but to the planet, to nature, to the universe. And so we have deep connections to all…to nature and everything else on the planet. It's just experiencing it. So how my goal is to figure out how to help people experience it, not talk about it, know it, but to sort of meditatively get into a place, see I'm really going off the deep end here now, but learning how to enter a different realm of being and being connected and feeling that tremendous power of love that comes along with it.

Jennifer Griggs: That's exquisite.

Donna Hicks: Thank you. 

Jennifer Griggs: How can people find your work? 

Donna Hicks: I have a website, www.drdonnahicks.com. And I have two books. The first one is Dignity, Its Essential Role in Resolving Conflict. That was the one that was kind of like my first…uh…what…kind of awakening to this topic and how to make it practical for people. And then the second book is Leading with Dignity: How to Create a Culture that Brings out the Best in People. And so those are three ways, looking at my website, reading the books, and there's a email on my website if anybody wants to contact me. 

Jennifer Griggs: We will of course put links to your books and your website in the show notes for today’s episode. Dr. Donna Hicks, thank you so much for being here today.

Donna Hicks: You are so welcome. This has been a loving experience right here. I gotta tell you, I felt the connection. So thank you for that. Thank you for that. 

Jennifer Griggs: We hope you enjoyed listening to this podcast. As I reflect on my conversation with Dr. Hicks, I've noticed both her belief that we all share the desire to be seen and valued. Did you notice how Donna moved during our conversation from describing dignity as a cognitive process to an embodied and spiritual experience?