294. Why Food is NOT the Problem When Your Diet Falls Off Track [Wits & Weights Podcast]

Do you feel trapped in a cycle of dieting and frustration? Why do your best efforts with food seem to fail when it matters most? Is it possible that your food struggles are about something deeper than food itself?

In this episode of Wits & Weights Podcast, host Philip Pape explores the deeper roots of food consistency with Insatiable’s own Ali Shapiro!

Tune in to learn all about:

• Why food struggles aren’t about food
• Understanding emotional hunger
• Tools Vs. Deeper psychological work
• Food and the human experience
• Stress, loneliness, secret eating, and falling off track
• The T.A.I.L. framework for emotional triggers
• Facing triggers and learning growth
• Ali’s personal journey with food and health
• Finding trust and meeting your needs
• Compassionate witness and feeling significant

Mentioned in this episode:

• Philip’s episode of Insatiable
• Ali’s Truce with Food program
• Registration for Your Emotional Eating Blueprint is now open! You can enroll or sign-up for a free sneak peek here: https://alishapiro.com/blueprint/

🌟 Registration for Your Emotional Eating Blueprint is now open! You can enroll for only $67 until April 30th or sign-up for a free sneak peak here: https://alishapiro.com/blueprint/

Transcript

Ali Shapiro [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Insatiable, the podcast where we discuss the intersection of food, psychology, and culture. I'm your host, Ali Shapiro, an integrated health coach, thirty two year and counting cancer survivor, and have radically healed my relationship with food and my body. And for the past seventeen years, I've been working with clients individually, in group programs, and in company settings to do the same. Welcome. The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual, or medical advice. So two episodes ago, I had Philip Pape on about strength training, walking, all the things about, you know, being in shape over 40. And I had met Philip because he had asked me to come on his podcast. And so I am re airing that episode because it went over really well with his audience, and I think it's a great one for Insatiable as well.

Ali Shapiro [00:01:04]:
And if you like what you hear here, hear, hear. I want to remind you that this is some of the stuff that we're really gonna help you figure out how this applies to you in my upcoming program, your emotional eating blueprint, colon, why mining this now? Okay? So this is a live program that I'm running in May, '4 weeks, once a week, to help you really understand the root cause of why you fall off track and how you can move forward from there. Because otherwise, you're gonna be going down the wrong track, putting a lot of effort for not a lot of results, and continuing to think that perhaps you have food addiction, sugar addiction, food compulsion, a lot of these things. Not to say that none of that stuff is true, but a lot of people think they have that because they don't understand the emotional reasons that they turn to food. And in this episode with Philip, you're gonna see a little free sneak preview of the framework that I use with my clients and I've been using for oh, god. Like, well, it took me some time to develop, but I've been in practice for eighteen years now. So I hope you'll come join us. And if you're curious about the program, there's a link in the show notes to the program page.

Ali Shapiro [00:02:20]:
But also, I'm gonna be giving a free workshop on Tuesday, April 29 about get to the root cause of why you're falling off track. So it's actually gonna be a free sneak peek of the first lesson of the program in May. Okay? So on Tuesday, April 29, get to the root of falling off track is the free master class. And then the next week, we start with the program, your emotional eating blueprint. So if you've been listening to Insatiable for a while or you just found it and you're like, this makes a lot of sense, and I'm really ready to put my effort into something that's gonna give me an amazing return. And you really wanna age well and just get this food monkey off your back, whatever it is, I hope you'll join us. And again, the program is only $97. So if you're interested, sign up for that free master class, and you'll be on the list where you'll also be notified of some early bird savings.

Ali Shapiro [00:03:19]:
All right. Enjoy today's episode, which is a replay of my interview with Philip. And I'll be back next week with another episode of the body stories with Sask Petherick. I'm so glad all of you are loving that series.

Philip Pape [00:03:40]:
I'm your host Philip Pape, and today, we are daring to discuss the deeper roots of food consistency with Ali Shapiro. Now Ali is a rebel with a serious cause, a pioneer in integrative health, the creator of Truce with Food, and she's the host of the top ranked Insatiable podcast. She has spent over a decade helping clients break free from the cycle of dieting, frustration, burnout, not to mention the challenge that we face in the industry with the medical system, diet culture, body positivity movements, and she does that in her own unique way. And what I love about Ali's approach is how she goes way past those surface level ideas and the motivational memes about consistency, and she instead helps solve the emotional and psychological roots of why we fall off track. So today, you're gonna learn why food battles are actually safety battles, how to identify your hidden eating triggers, and a practical path to food freedom that doesn't require white knuckling your way with an unsustainable solution. Ali, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Ali Shapiro [00:04:44]:
Thanks for having me, Philip. This is gonna be good.

Philip Pape [00:04:47]:
It's it's gonna be awesome. Yeah. The stuff that you talk about with food safety and the relationship with food is super interesting, and I think a lot of people listening, they struggle with these different thoughts that they have. Right? Somebody might say, you know, I just can't stop eating, or I have no discipline around food, or it might be very narrow in topic like, I can't help but eat those Hershey Kisses every time I see them. Right?

Ali Shapiro [00:05:09]:
Yeah.

Philip Pape [00:05:10]:
Right? So, I mean, so how do you actually, you know, we know it's not about food, I think is where we're gonna get to in this conversation. They're telling you something else. So in your words, you've mentioned something about the relationship with safety being part of that. What do you mean by that?

Ali Shapiro [00:05:25]:
Yeah. And I love that we wanna define our terms because safety could be a lot of things. Right? Let me start with the food as an example because it can be about the food, and you talk about this a lot on widths and weights. So if you think about, like, you're sometimes having thoughts of, like, oh my god. I need, I don't know, a burger or something. Right? That might be your body feels physically unsafe because your blood sugar isn't balanced. Right? It's like you don't have enough protein. Right? And so that food noise is driven by your body saying, I am unsafe.

Ali Shapiro [00:05:55]:
I may have the calories, but I don't have the nutrition I need. Right? Mhmm. Right? Mhmm.

Philip Pape [00:06:00]:
So I think True hunger. True hunger. Yes. Physical hunger. True hunger.

Ali Shapiro [00:06:03]:
Right. So I look at everything through this lens of safety. What most people, if we go out one ring, if we're looking at, like, safety rings, like, I think of, like, physical, emotional, spiritual. Right? But emotional is kind of in between that. And all of us have this deep primal need to basically feel at home in the world. Right? Feel at home in our bodies, feel at home, when we're at home with our families, feel at home at work in a way that we feel we can contribute. So I think we can think of emotion as safety as con like, abstractly kind of feeling at home. But on a biological level, we also need to feel we also need to know that we have that safety.

Ali Shapiro [00:06:45]:
So even though in America, we kind of have this highly individualistic, like and I'm all for personal responsibility. This is about holding the and, and we need each other. And so one of the really interesting things that, you know, wasn't available to Maslow when he was creating his hierarchy of needs that neuroscience has now proven is that this sense of belonging is more important than even having your basic needs met. And that's because we can think about safety as when you're a child, right, you need someone to care about you to get your basic needs met. Right? The caretaker, feeling at home and being at home with that caretaker. And again, there's lots of variations in that definition, but you need someone to care about you enough that they're gonna get you to where you can be self sufficient. But still, even as adults, we still have a need to have other people and feel like we have our place in the world and that we can contribute. And so that's what I mean by feeling a sense of safety.

Philip Pape [00:07:49]:
Yeah. That's a very it's a profound and and almost mind blowing place to flip the idea of the you mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs and saying that we are social creatures. You have no argument for me on that at all. I used to be a very much, like, independent cause. Like, it's we're all, you know in my idealistic youth, right, it's all me. But I've come to realize through family and friends and business and life and also, like you said, biology and what we've learned about evolution that we wouldn't be humans without depending on each other for that. I mean, babies are helpless for the first few minutes of their life because they're able to survive with humans. So your work then proposes that this food noise gets louder because we are feeling separate or feeling alone.

Philip Pape [00:08:30]:
And I think you even talk about the physiological piece of that, like the stimulants or the attachment chemicals in in our brain, I I believe. So, I mean, let's keep going down that thread just so people understand, okay, what exactly is happening? And we're not talking about physical hunger. We're talking about, what do you call it, physiological or psychological, emotional hunger?

Ali Shapiro [00:08:51]:
Yeah. I mean, I I would yeah. I would say it's emotional hunger. Like, it's the metaphor the metaphor of hunger. Right? Because our body doesn't speak in language. It speaks in metaphor. I mean,

Philip Pape [00:08:59]:
nothing Oh, oh, that's good. Stop. Hold on. A metaphor of hunger. Okay. This is great. A client of mine recently went back and forth because I was saying, let's address your hunger. And she's like, it's not hunger.

Philip Pape [00:09:08]:
It's not hunger. It's cravings. I'm like, oh, I see what you're getting at. And I think this is part of the thing we wanna clear up with terminology is that hunger is, like, not just food hunger. It's hunger for many other things.

Ali Shapiro [00:09:19]:
Yes. Yes. And you can I mean, I've I've sometimes call it phantom hunger, but I think it's also realizing that, yes, hunger is a metaphor? Right? And so once you know your blood sugar's balanced, your gut health, your strength training, like, you got all the physical safety. Right? And you're still having that food noise. So an exam I'll give you a couple food examples of how people, when that food noise when it's an emotional food noise. Right? And these are come straight from client examples. Right? I was with I was just starting with the client, and she's like, okay. So I'm all or nothing.

Ali Shapiro [00:09:52]:
And and I don't really I think all or nothing is that's a whole other podcast, but I was like, okay. So when do you get into your nothing phase where you're like, chuck it, eff it. Right? And she's like, well, like, I'll be eating really healthy, and then my my kids wanna go to Chick fil A, and we're rushed, and it's convenient and easy. And so I will just be like, okay. I I'm I'm gonna just eat this for this lunch, and and then the whole day is ruined. Right? Mhmm. And what we were able to parse out is that she actually has a story that her needs are inconvenient. She's like, I've been told I'm I'm I've been an inconvenience, like, my whole life.

Ali Shapiro [00:10:26]:
Right? And so it's like, okay. So in that moment, she didn't even know that she had needs. Right? It was just like, oh, I want it to be easy. I have this food noise. This is the most easy, you know, path to that. Because feeling our emotions actually requires space and time because, you know, so many of us are going, going, going. But that's an example of and it's unconscious not because it's deep and dark, but just because you're going on automatic pilot. But she had a need there to feel like, I wanna eat something healthy, but she thought that was in conflict with what her kids wanted, and she didn't wanna be an inconvenience there.

Philip Pape [00:11:03]:
Okay. I see. She didn't wanna be an inconvenience herself too. You know, isn't it funny how we separate our kids from ourselves sometimes like that, unconsciously or not?

Ali Shapiro [00:11:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, okay. We need to work on, like, how is this not like I being health eating healthy is all on you. Like, you have to carry the family that way. Like, because when we're often in all or nothing, we we think we're things are there's a conflict between our needs and everyone else being happy. So that's, like, the safety. Right? Oh, if people are happy and they get their way, then I'm still gonna be included here, is kind of the assumption in that particular case.

Ali Shapiro [00:11:40]:
So there was a need to want to eat healthy, but there was also a competing need, the perception of being an inconvenience. And, obviously, you can reconcile both of those once you understand what's happening. But that's an one example of emotional safety.

Philip Pape [00:11:55]:
Yeah. And how how did do you uncover that? Like, how does someone listening uncover that from obviously, we're all we're always gonna say go talk to Ali. You know, she's a great coach.

Ali Shapiro [00:12:03]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape [00:12:03]:
Join her program and all. But in real you know, people wanna understand what are the tools here? What are the strategies for doing

Ali Shapiro [00:12:09]:
that? Yeah. Well, I think the first thing is to realize that when you have, you know, phantom hunger, hunger that's not physical, the go to knee jerk reaction is to beat yourself up, to be like, I told myself I wasn't eating the Hershey Kisses today. Right? Like, why am I like, I can already see myself going home and eating them or if they're at your coworkers, you know, desk. I don't know. Do people work in person anymore? I don't

Philip Pape [00:12:30]:
you know? It's true. The bulls are there. Yes.

Ali Shapiro [00:12:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. They're still there all these years later. I knew they were there when I was in corporate. So the first thing is just to say, like, why does this make sense? So rather than beating ourselves up, because you were talking earlier about that physiological need for safety. And so what you were talking about is what, doctor Deborah McNamara talks about in her book Nourish. She's a child developmental psychologist, but she talks about how food stimulates attachment chemicals. So it may but it doesn't give us the deeper belonging that we actually need.

Ali Shapiro [00:13:04]:
So from the time we're born, right, food gets coupled with someone cares about you. So as adults, we turn to the food. We feel like someone cares about us, but we don't actually have the support of the of it's not a caretaker when you're adult, but it's people that care about you, including yourself, advocating for your needs. So that's why you have to say, first of all, why does this make sense? Like, on a primal level, I need to feel this emotional safety. And it's my hunger this emotional hunger as a metaphor is pointing me to the fact that I do not have it. Like, that is all that's telling you. It's a symptom, not the problem.

Philip Pape [00:13:44]:
And do you what what is your opinion on the idea that there are different angles of attack for this? Right? And there are different tribes and camps. And I know how you're you're big like me, you are skeptical of of anybody who goes all in one direction. But there's the idea that we can use tools and strategies to process our way through. In other words, not necessarily have to uncover the root cause, just find something that helps us move forward, and then maybe it eventually resolves the issue versus going all in on the psychology side, uncovering your deepest, darkest secrets from when you were a child to, like, figure it all out, right, like a therapist. Like, what is your thought on that spectrum? Do you know what I'm asking? When it comes to like like, you could just change your environment. That's a common strategy that's talked about. Right? Like, change your kitchen environment and put food where you don't see it and, like, those strategies you know what I'm saying? And they can help people without always understanding the trigger fully. And I think you need both.

Philip Pape [00:14:43]:
It depends. But I'm curious on your thoughts.

Ali Shapiro [00:14:45]:
Yeah. That was gonna be my answer. I think if someone's new to all of this, they should try that. And if it works, my clients have tend to be overwhelmed by all of that. They've tried it. And I think of, like, for example, some of my clients had food insecurity as a kid. Mhmm. Right? And so them not having food in the house makes them feel emotionally unsafe.

Ali Shapiro [00:15:03]:
It's like I even though I know logically. And this actually, I had I actually had a couple of clients who were cruising and then COVID came, and they just needed one spot session because they were like, why is this food noise back? Like, I have not had this for years. And I was like, what feels hard about it? Like, that's the next question. What feels hard about right now? And it was like, oh my god. There's supply chain issues. I can't get all the food I need. I'm I am back to being eight years old again and not knowing if we were gonna be able to eat at night. And so these I think what ends up happening is we give people these blanket prescriptions not knowing, like, what does that trigger? Because even if you change your environment, even if you do all of this stuff, you still have to be with other people.

Ali Shapiro [00:15:46]:
You still need to interact with people. And so it's you know? And I for example, I also had one client. She was trying to do mindful eating. Okay? And we were actually working on her feeling really alone and isolated in her life. And she had friends around her and all this stuff, but she there was still stuff that she didn't she didn't realize she wasn't bringing, like, her full self to her relationships. Right? And so she ended up feeling quite alone even though she was around other people who liked her and cared about her. And she was like, you know, I've tried the mindful eating stuff. I know I'm not supposed to listen to podcasts.

Ali Shapiro [00:16:19]:
I know I'm supposed to breathe. And she's like, but when I do that, it's so apparent how alone I am. Like

Philip Pape [00:16:26]:
Yes. Because it's now she's so she's just with her own thought. She's even more alone. Okay. Interesting.

Ali Shapiro [00:16:30]:
But I was like, turn on the podcast. Yeah. Like like, you know, like like, that's not and I think because you're an engineer, you'll appreciate there's there's like a sequence over strategy. Right? Like Yeah. Okay. All of these strategies will work at some point at potentially for you, but what is the sequence that it makes sense?

Philip Pape [00:16:47]:
Right? So decision tree. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:16:48]:
Yeah. If someone is you know, I have a lot of clients who have, like, you know, Hashimoto's or maybe on the prediabetic track or something. Right? Like, if you may need to stabilize yourself physically, but if you've already tried that and it's like, I know what to do, but I I can't do it, you know, maybe I need to look at more psychology. And I would also say, and I know that you know it's both camps, but we know what stress this the way that I look at it is, like, it this is whenever you're working on the physiology, you're also working on your psychology. And whenever you're working on your psychology

Philip Pape [00:17:20]:
point. Yes.

Ali Shapiro [00:17:21]:
Yeah. It's just like an infinity feedback loop. So it's like this oh, the psychology I was gonna say is also realizing that so much of our safety is in our body. So it's like these emotional needs generate our thoughts. So I don't I'm not I'm I do more developmental psychology where I'm like, I'm not concerned about all of these thoughts going on. We need to look at the deeper need that makes you think you're you're trying to be good in your thoughts, but it's driven by a need that needs you to question if that's really the good thing to do. Right? So, like, for example oh, yeah. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:17:54]:
Yeah.

Philip Pape [00:17:54]:
No. No. You please. Please.

Ali Shapiro [00:17:56]:
Yeah.

Philip Pape [00:17:56]:
So example.

Ali Shapiro [00:17:57]:
Yeah. So for example, one of my clients, she would find herself, you know, before going out to eat this was before we started working together. She's like, I will go look at the menu, and I won't know what I wanna do. I wanna make the healthy choice. And then I get there, and I am just like, go with the flow. I'm gonna order. You know? And and it's like, what is happening? And it's like, oh, she was feeling high maintenance. Like, when we actually got to it, right, it was like she thought the good thing was to be easygoing and eat with everyone else.

Philip Pape [00:18:30]:
She felt judged or whatever for being too prepared or something.

Ali Shapiro [00:18:34]:
Yeah. Well, the well, the perception this was based on the past. Again, it wasn't deep, dark into her Right. Into her childhood. It was just like, oh, like like, my family judged picky eaters. Right? And so it's like, if I didn't know that, I'm still I'm putting that on my friends now, which when I so then we have her tried. It's like, okay. Let's that's a small risk.

Ali Shapiro [00:18:53]:
Next time, just say, you know what? I'm good. I'm gonna order this. Like, what happens? And it's like, oh, nothing happened. In fact, like, it opened up this great conversation about, oh, I know this is embarrassing, but I used to feel pressured deep with all of you guys. And then it opened up this big deeper conversation, generated more emotional safety about, like, you could totally eat what you want. I sometimes feel pressure the next time a couple other of her friends ate order different. And so what's often happening with our perception is we're we're always bringing the past to the present. Right? Like, all of us.

Ali Shapiro [00:19:27]:
So we're often thinking, like, the good thing was to just go with the flow, be low maintenance, don't be a burden. And and what the the task of developmental psychology as adults is to say, wait a second. This is what I learned. And it's not my work is even though maybe we will touch on the hard things that happened in childhood, it's really about the cultural conditioning Yes. Of what everyone thinks is normal that is good or bad. Right? Yes. And so it's like that's I'm like, normal the more you do this work, the more you're like, normal's batshit crazy. But we keep going along.

Philip Pape [00:20:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. I I you you hit me so hard there. The culture because I was think even thinking of alcohol and, like, the more extreme things that we rationalize to some nth degree, and it wouldn't make any sense if an alien came to our planet and said, what are you doing yourself? Like, what are you guys doing? It's part of our culture. It's our conditioning, and there's behavioral psychology or there's social psychology and learned behavior. So I think the average person, if they could know more about what you're saying and kind of be just open to it and aware of it, will help maybe, interrupt some of those patterns and issues just from the awareness. My here's my maybe this is a deeper question or maybe not.

Philip Pape [00:20:39]:
Why are we even talking about this? And what I mean by that is, why is food itself the thing? Like, many of your clients are probably just like mine. They're highly independent. They're intelligent. They're disciplined. They're high achievers. They're successful in a lot of things. Why do they struggle with food? I mean and and we're talking everybody. Like, it's almost everybody has some struggle with this.

Philip Pape [00:20:59]:
Is it because it's your area of expertise and we're talking about it, or is it literally come to the top of the list because it's something we do we need every day as humans? Like, what are your thoughts on it?

Ali Shapiro [00:21:08]:
I love that you asked that because when I'm out in the wild and people are like, what do you do? Like, the easiest way is to be like, I help people who wanna eat eat, eat, and be healthy do it, and they can't. And they're like, isn't that all of America? And I'm like, even I'm like, yeah. I'm like, yeah.

Philip Pape [00:21:22]:
All human beings. Yeah. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:21:24]:
But I think it comes down to, like, nature really designed food to be communal and to help us. Like, if you think about, like, it helped us if we think about belonging, even if we go out to the original belonging, is belonging to the land. Right? Like, food helps orient us. That's a form of safety. Like, here's the season you're in. Right? Here's how to take care of your body. And I think about food being the most intimate relationship we have. Like, what we eat literally becomes our blood, our bones.

Ali Shapiro [00:21:55]:
Like, you can't get more intimate than that. And so I think between that, the it's we feel healthier when we feel rooted into place. We feel healthier when we're rooted into family, into community. And, you know, and, again, I'm pulling from some of doctor Deborah McNamara's book Nourish, but she talks about, like, nature creating this exquisite design of how, you know, mealtime is really about like I said before, feeling our feelings requires space and safety. And it's like mealtime is often the chance to, like, slow down and feel these feelings. And then you have the the food as, like, almost what can't be said. Right? Like, if when I think about when people pass away, what do people do to show you that they're there for you? They they bring a casserole. They bring you know? And it's so to me, it's just like nature, quote, unquote, comfort food isn't bad.

Ali Shapiro [00:22:49]:
It's necessary. It's when we're turning to comfort for something that it can't it it Fulfill. Yeah. It can't fulfill.

Philip Pape [00:22:57]:
Satisfy. It can't since you're insatiable. There you go.

Ali Shapiro [00:23:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. Doctor Gordon Newfield says there's doctor who is Deborah's, doctor McNamara's, mentor, he says there's nothing as addictive as something that almost works. And it's like, the food almost works, but it's the it's the care that's in in constant that that is what we really need. And so and I think in our culture that has a lot of food issues, I don't think we have a lot of communal care. You're expected to do everything yourself.

Philip Pape [00:23:25]:
The care ensconced in food and the experience of food is what we need. I love that. I like the word ensconced too. But Okay.

Ali Shapiro [00:23:32]:
For a second. I don't know where that came from.

Philip Pape [00:23:34]:
It's great. I know. It's so poetic.

Ali Shapiro [00:23:36]:
Right? This is great.

Philip Pape [00:23:39]:
Yeah. So many things come to mind, like, just humanity and culture and religion as well, like, people with different religions and how food is a central part of that. And, like, we don't wanna deny those things. We don't want to like, what you're implying here is that there is a there can be absolutely a comfort and enjoyment of food. And I've seen people post comments to when I've said that before. I'm like, if you can enjoy your food, if it satisfies you and you can eat it without guilt, like, that's a great place to be. Oh, you shouldn't enjoy food or food is fuel. Like, what are your what are your thoughts of those of those, like, you know, food food is fuel.

Philip Pape [00:24:10]:
You shouldn't enjoy food. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:24:12]:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's and. Right? Yeah. It is fuel. And, again, when we think about, you know, the surgeon general said loneliness is is more dangerous than, smoking. Right?

Philip Pape [00:24:23]:
For longevity and health. Right? Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:24:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. And we're in a culture that loves to measure and quantify it. And I love numbers and and all that stuff. And they I think the best things in life, you can't always quantify. Like, you know, you you have kids. It's like, oh my god. I saw that dance recital.

Ali Shapiro [00:24:39]:
It's like, how do you quantify that that feeling of pride of seeing your kid, like, nail something after struggling with it or even in yourself. Right? Like, even at the gym, like, it's like when I can just get, like, even, like, one pound more on the squat rack. It's like it I mean, yes. I know I've done better because of the one pound, but it's like it's the the strength and the courage that ultimately is, like, what makes, I think, life worth meaning. So I think food can be fuel, and I think we need if you're struggling with it or if you if you I I would just I think a food is a metaphor, so I'd be really interested with someone who thinks it's only fuel. Like, what what are you missing out on that you don't think you need?

Philip Pape [00:25:20]:
Out on. Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. And I joke all the time on my podcast how I'm, like, kind of a foodie. And my wife and I are very different. Like, she she can basically eat anything, and it does it kind of all tastes the same to her. I mean, she admits that it's just her how her taste buds are.

Philip Pape [00:25:33]:
You know how there's, like, two super tasters and whatnot? She she appreciates really good food, but I I'm at the next level. Like, I could tell you what ingredients are in there or not in there. You know, this needs more of this, needs more of that. So there is a a fun connection, and I like how you tied it to how we feel when we accomplish things or when we're in the gym or or whatever because it's so central to the human experience.

Ali Shapiro [00:25:54]:
Well, I was gonna go back to one level deeper too because this is I mean, this is the spiritual level, but depending on your beliefs, I mean, I think God is part of the Earth. Right? So it's like it's almost also this, like, spiritual. Right? And like you said, all religious traditions, right, revolve around food and the symbolism there. So we can also look at, you know, it is like us, like the universe. Right? It's like communing with that. Like right? And when you're like, I often say to clients, like, when have because sometimes people come to me, like, I struggle with portion control. And I'm like, well, tell me a time where portion control was easy. And it's like, oh, when I went to my families and we make this thing, it we let's call it sourdough bread.

Ali Shapiro [00:26:38]:
I don't know. That's probably because I just was on Instagram. Everyone makes sourdough bread. Like, oh my god. It takes so long, but we all do it together. And it's like, oh my god. That that spiritual experience of being with others and having you know, and just like that is, like, the nourishment that we really want. And so I also think it's just food is spiritual for how I I think of the Earth and what it provides as part of that spiritual energy that that has created all of this.

Philip Pape [00:27:06]:
Yeah. And if and if I were to connect that for people who are not as spiritual, and that's cool, I would say that food making food's one of the last primal things we do. Yeah. Like, other than sex. Right? It's making food and that. Like, we don't build our own houses. I mean, most of us don't. I built a little bit of my house, but that I would never do that again.

Ali Shapiro [00:27:26]:
But, you know, we

Philip Pape [00:27:27]:
don't build it. Like, we don't build shelter. We don't hunt for our food even. Yeah. Or we don't do all the primal things. So maybe it's just like a vestige of what's left from our primal, you know, nature. Yeah. As we're on the Internet talking on a podcast.

Philip Pape [00:27:41]:
So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

Ali Shapiro [00:27:42]:
It's holding the and. It's holding the and. Yeah. It's holding the and.

Philip Pape [00:27:45]:
I like that. Holding the and. Isn't that isn't that the technique in improv comedy, to always say and to your partner? Like

Ali Shapiro [00:27:51]:
Yeah. Yes, dear.

Philip Pape [00:27:52]:
Said and. Conan O'Brien's really good at that. His, his podcast, what's it called? Conan Meets a Friend, one of the best podcasts ever if you'd like to.

Ali Shapiro [00:28:00]:
I really liked him. I why did the night late show with him not work out? That feels like forever ago, but I was really I think

Philip Pape [00:28:06]:
he's thriving now though on the podcast. You should check it out. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:28:09]:
Okay. Good.

Philip Pape [00:28:10]:
Getting off a little tangy here, but that's okay. So I guess going back to, see, I always have a bunch of questions and notes that I never get to, which is cool. So okay. So handling stress and the alone the loneliness of all of this and then tying that to falling off track with food, where do we wanna take it to what's the next step? Right? So now we've we understand there's the psychology of it. We understand why food is maybe important on both sides of it. Talk about the loneliness and the stress and and handling that and falling off track because, ultimately, we wanna get back on track. Or maybe it's not even a track. Like, maybe we should talk about, is there really even a track? Is that a faulty premise? I don't know.

Ali Shapiro [00:28:47]:
I freaking love that you asked that question because, of course, I use that in my marketing because that's right. But there isn't a track. If you know how to learn from what's happening, it's all the same. You know? And this is I mean, this comes down to religion as well. Like but, I mean well, there's certain spiritual traditions that believe, like, everything's welcome. It's not a problem, right, to try to, like right? But in America, we believe you have to earn your goodness. So it's like falling off track is bad versus, like, why does this make sense? Why what can I learn from this? And so I think if people and I love that you use the word alone because that is you know? And especially for people listening, you know that you feel alone if you're secret eating. Right? Like, that's what I tell clients.

Ali Shapiro [00:29:26]:
Like, your food is always telling you what your needs are in a metaphor. So a lot of my clients, for example, will like, after their kids, like, their their like, their kids are melting down or something. They just, like, escape to the the pantry,

Philip Pape [00:29:40]:
important. Yeah. Yeah. I

Ali Shapiro [00:29:41]:
got it. Secret eating or waiting till everyone's alone. You're doing it in your car at night, whatever. That's a symbol or that's a symptom, symbol, metaphor, whatever you wanna say that you're feeling unsupported somehow in your life. So kind of the and and I'm gonna give you these steps and knowing that this can be hard because often the emotions are so overwhelming that you may have to ask yourself this three or four days after the fact. So in truth with food, I always wait. I always tell people, like, in the beginning, it's kinda like, we're just saying, like, can we catch this after the fact? It not till you're, like, two or three months in are you gonna be able to, like, catch yourself in the moment because these needs the more we restrict these emotional needs, kinda like the more you restrict your hunger, then they come back even more in terms of, that kind of unnamable energy that causes people to turn turn to food. So why does this make sense? And then when the food noise is happening, right, like, if you're my client who was, like, in the pantry, right, with her after, like, her kid like, hiding from her kids.

Ali Shapiro [00:30:40]:
Right? It's like, what feels hard about this? Right? And if again, if you're also eating alone, you might wanna say, it may not be about what just happened the day like, the moment you left work and now you're in your car. It may. It may be something that happened. But because our emotions take space to, like, actually feel and unfurl, it's not gonna be like, this happened and then this and then the food noise happened. It it's gonna be like once I act although for many of my clients, the food noise is just a constant Right? It's like like a rock in their shoe. So it's like, it's all the time. What do you need?

Philip Pape [00:31:14]:
Which could make it even harder to tie it to the thing, which is why we need to dig in here. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:31:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I think saying, like, what what feels hard about this? Right? And it's like, I feel alone in parenting. Right? I feel alone. Trying to think of a recent you know? Yeah. I feel alone with my family trying to eat healthy. Right? I feel alone. I'm trying to think when I struggle with food, I felt, my corporate job was like, my corporate job was, like, stressful but boring.

Ali Shapiro [00:31:44]:
I don't know if that if that

Philip Pape [00:31:45]:
makes sense. I I totally understand that. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:31:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, like, and I, again, I was in my early twenties, but I had had cancer at 13, and I was like, why am I wasting my time? I don't this feels so hard to, like, do be spending my all my time, and I don't know what I wanna do. And, you know, so it's like I felt really and a lot of my friends were, like, really into climbing the corporate ladder, which I get. But I was just like, that's just not, like, you know If

Philip Pape [00:32:12]:
you didn't have a purpose.

Ali Shapiro [00:32:14]:
Yeah. Like, for me, that just did not seem enticing. You know? I mean Yeah. And I was in a competitive corporate job, and I I was doing that, but I was like, this sucks. And, again, I have friends who love that. Right? Like, I went to love corporate, but it it made me feel even more alone because, again, having cancer at 13, it sets you on a just different existential track. Let's put it that way. So you wanna ask yourself, like, what feels really hard about this? And then you wanna try to unearth the need that's within that difficulty.

Ali Shapiro [00:32:42]:
Right? So you know? And there's one of the the intermediary steps that you can ask yourself what feels hard about this. You can say, what's at the tail end of my food noise? And tail stands for t a I l. And this will help you identify the underlying kind of state of being. So t is for tired. Right? So a lot of my clients are at the end of the night. They're like, I deserve this. And it's like, why does it make sense? I'm exhausted. I've had no fulfillment all day.

Ali Shapiro [00:33:12]:
It's, you know, get up, get the kids, work, get home, get the kids. And now it's like, this is the only reward of the case.

Philip Pape [00:33:20]:
And it could happen at 3PM in the afternoon too. Right?

Ali Shapiro [00:33:23]:
Oh oh, yeah. Oh, yes.

Philip Pape [00:33:26]:
I've heard it all.

Ali Shapiro [00:33:27]:
Yeah. Well, Anne, if you're going through, perimenopause or menopause and have, like, sleep issues, you know, it could be, like, first thing in the morning. And so t is tired, a is anxious, and this is uncertainty. And this is uncertainty from the outside. So I don't know about you, but I know a lot of I had a lot of clients come to me during COVID. Right? COVID was like this uncertain time. Like, what is happening? How long is lockdown? What people are sick? Should I go outside? Right? So that uncertainty, we saw alcohol and food consumption, like, skyrocket. Right? Our public health went down considerably.

Ali Shapiro [00:34:02]:
Right? Not to mention, like, you know, kids' mental health. So anxiousness is, like, uncertainty from the outside. Then the I is inadequacy. And that is when we're wondering, is it me? Like, I had a client who intrudes with food. It was awesome. She was able to interrupt the cycle because she went to a new job, and she was, like, learning all the systems and everything, but she accidentally did, like, the wrong project. And she's like, it made me feel so inadequate. And she's like, my old way of being would have been like, okay.

Ali Shapiro [00:34:32]:
You're gonna work and you're gonna fix it, and then you're gonna eat because this sucks while you're doing this. She's like, what I started to do is, like, I'm gonna tell my boss. Like you know? And and but she so she had to she felt inadequate, but I was like, are you really inadequate or are you new to the job? You know? So it's like you need someone who's like, I have this need for an extension of time. And the boss was like, yeah. But I definitely need it by Wednesday. Let's make sure that you understand. You know? And it was like, oh my god. You can do that? You know? She was like,

Philip Pape [00:35:00]:
I was big relief. Yeah. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:35:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. But when we're feeling inadequate, we're like, it's me, not the the environment or the contextual the con the specifics of the circumstance. And then last one is that loneliness of, like, I just feel separate from here in some way. I feel alone. Often a way that you know that you're having that lonely trigger is you're like, if I was thinner, this would not be happening. Right? That's a common way of kind of offloading the sense of aloneness of, you know, I would I would be dating now if I was thinner. I would have already asked for that promotion if I felt more confident in my body.

Ali Shapiro [00:35:37]:
And all of that stuff, again, holding the end can help, and you don't have to wait for that. You can start working on the skills you need, you know, to get better communication in relationships. Or how what is the path to the promotion? And who do you have to talk to? So those are the the triggers of, like, when you could say, why does this make sense? What's at the tail end of this? And then there's needs within, you know, each of those triggers.

Philip Pape [00:36:00]:
Yeah. Love it. I love frameworks like that. No. This is really good, and I know, you know, we could do multiple episodes about each one of these. So but I like having that framework where it's definitely not just one thing and we oversimplify it sometimes. And we talked earlier, you can't just patch it or Band Aid it with a tool or one size fits all, like, here here are the tips for how to blah blah blah. Right?

Ali Shapiro [00:36:22]:
But you can use a framework. Right? Framework gives you agency. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape [00:36:26]:
Yeah. For sure. And it and it's nuanced, and it and it gives you options to kinda dig into each of these. And as you were saying now, I was thinking, oh, yeah. Interesting thinking about my past where I I struggled for, like, twenty years with food. And and I always thought it was a very different way than others. And that's true because we all get there in different ways. Inadequacy is an interesting one, right? I assume that's uncertainty from the inside because you said anxiety is uncertainty from the outside, right?

Ali Shapiro [00:36:51]:
Self doubt is an easier way of saying

Philip Pape [00:36:53]:
Self doubt. And I like the example you gave because there are I bet anybody listening can imagine can think almost every day a situation where you screwed up or did something, or maybe somebody gave you a disappointing answer. Right? Like, I wanted to do this collaboration with another podcaster. His PR person's, like, said, no. He's not interested. And immediately you think, okay. It's me. Right? Like, there's something wrong with me.

Philip Pape [00:37:14]:
And, of course, you could ask. You could say, oh, can you help me understand why? But, like, 90% of the time, it's some other situation that has nothing to do with you. At the same time, I like your thought of nothing is bad. Everything is you should be curious. Right? Be curious and look at it as a way to learn even if it is something you did. I mean, sometimes there is that. So

Ali Shapiro [00:37:35]:
Well, and what what happens is, like, when we we struggle with food, it wears away at our self trust a lot. And so Okay. What ends up happening is if we don't ask those questions, like, what could I do? Or you're I love that podcaster example. Like, oh, you know, why did I I remember pitching someone that I was friends with. Like, friendly, you know, how it is. And, like, I heard nothing back. And so I was like, look, I understand your platform is, like, you know Yeah. Next to mine.

Ali Shapiro [00:38:01]:
If that's the issue, that's fine. I'm just following up. And she's like, No, let's do it. But it was like, I mean, that's like a happy ending, but you sometimes in this business Because

Philip Pape [00:38:09]:
you stewed in it for a while, right? Yeah. Until you got that answer.

Ali Shapiro [00:38:12]:
Yeah. But what I'm saying is like, we have that inadequacy trigger will stay until we actually learn the skills of, like so someone said to if they were like, look, it was great. It's just bad timing, and they're gonna have an opening in September. It's like, okay. Or if they were like, I mean, you're a podcaster. I get like, 90 of the pitches I get are horrible. I know that yours is going to not be horrible. But, like, if you're someone who keeps getting denied, it's not that it's you.

Ali Shapiro [00:38:36]:
It's the skill set that you can learn, right, to, like, okay, you need to get better at pitching. Otherwise, you're gonna keep thinking it's you rather than realizing. So that's part of, like, the work as well is, like, alright. I have this need. I wanna be on this podcast. And it's like, okay. Let's work backwards and figure out because you're capable. Right? You can

Philip Pape [00:38:55]:
Yes. Yes.

Ali Shapiro [00:38:56]:
Sounds like criticism. But now okay. I know that we're kinda running out of time, but tell me about, like, what were the twenty years? Like, what was going on for you if you think of that, Frank?

Philip Pape [00:39:05]:
Yeah. I mean, I I I don't get it's not a big dramatic story, to be honest. But, you know, from from the time I got out of college to when I was about 40, I just didn't know how to eat or train or anything. And so I was constantly dieting and yo yoing and all of that. So but when you mentioned things like, eating in secret, because I definitely have clients that deal with that, and I've thought of my own times in the past doing that, eating in a car or when I was, in my twenties and there was, like, relationship issues, I would, like, go to Friendly's and buy, like, this huge chocolate fudge sundae and then just, like, eat it in my bedroom. You know what I mean? And stuff like that, which I couldn't imagine doing now, but you know what it took? A lot of learning about yourself and, right, and that empathy that, like, self empathy and tools and practice and falling in your face over and over to, like, figure it out. So Right. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:39:56]:
So can you see, isn't it interesting friendlies and relationship issues? Doesn't that make sense? It's like, okay. It makes sense because you I don't know what the relationship issue was, but, like Yeah. Let's just say you wanted to be in a relation or you had a fight or whatever. It's like, oh my god. I'm feeling alone in this. So it's like the food gives me the attachment.

Philip Pape [00:40:15]:
Exactly.

Ali Shapiro [00:40:15]:
Oh, can you see how, like, that Oh,

Philip Pape [00:40:17]:
for sure. For sure.

Ali Shapiro [00:40:18]:
Yeah. It lines up. I just I appreciate you sharing because I think everyone listening should ask themselves, like, when was food easy for me? And when was it hard for me? And you will probably see this theme. Because once you see it, you can't unsee it, but it takes kind of a while because it's invisible. Right?

Philip Pape [00:40:36]:
It is. It is. And you you can I mean, as coaches, you can kind of see pretty quickly in talking to someone that maybe they're they're one side of that precipice or another? Right? Like, you can I mean, unless unless they're putting on, you know, a bold face? Right? Like, some people might do initially until you really learn who they are deep deeper down. But, yeah, you can tell in people's language sometimes, like, this is not really an issue. Let let's focus on the facts and let's get our through our goal. And others are like, well, I keep falling back off track on this thing. So now that you asked about me, I actually wanna ask about you because you mentioned I know your history of an an early cancer diagnosis. I know you've talked about that on your podcast as well.

Philip Pape [00:41:15]:
I mean, where where does all this come from in this this desire to help people do this? Because I imagine it's from a a deep place for you.

Ali Shapiro [00:41:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I started struggling with my weight, like, probably when I was around oh my god. I'm so bad with, like, ages, but probably, like, seven or eight. And at the time, I didn't understand like, what I know now with my functional medicine background is, like, I had been exposed to pesticides a couple like, right before that. And I have, like, an overactive immune system. I mean, based on type of cancer I had, that's what it was. But I started to gain weight around eight or nine years old.

Ali Shapiro [00:41:52]:
And it I think it was from the inflammation, from the pesticide exposure. Because I was an active kid. Like, we ate my dad was a health and phys ed teacher. My mom grew up on a, quote, unquote, organic farm. They didn't call it organic at the time. It was just like, my grandma was all about nutrition. Like, she believed in that, like, in the forties. She was so progressive.

Ali Shapiro [00:42:10]:
And so we ate really healthfully and everything, and I just started to gain weight. And I tried to do I did do my Richard Simmons, like, deal

Philip Pape [00:42:17]:
a meal.

Ali Shapiro [00:42:18]:
Oh, yeah. Deal a meal. I tried Weight Watchers at eleven. And but what had happened in between that is I had been bullied, in fifth grade. And I think and my parents I mean, you and I are, I think, the same age. Like, the eighties and nineties, people just

Philip Pape [00:42:32]:
I'm only 25, just so you know. Just kidding. No. I'm just kidding. I'm I'm 44. So Okay.

Ali Shapiro [00:42:37]:
Yeah. So I'm, like, a couple years older than you, but it was like, no one has done feelings, you know, until recently. So it was just Yeah. And I think I was, like, so ashamed. Like, I could have told my parents, but I didn't. And so that's when I would start coming home and eating bagels. Like, my parents were city school teachers. We didn't have bagels in the suburbs yet.

Ali Shapiro [00:42:53]:
This is how long ago that was. And so there would be these, like, cinnamon raisin bagels, and I would just come home and be so I mean, it's called an emotional immune system, which is basically your belonging system, but it was so alarmed that it was, like, because I had been ostracized, right, from all of these girls, that was, like, those bagels saved my life. I mean, they then caused me to gain weight and, like, then feel even more ostracized. And then, yeah, then I got, you know, obviously went through cancer at 13 and lost a ton of weight and was, like, the thinnest that I had ever been. And because it was still the early nineties, like, not a lot of difference of media, I had still internalized that health equals thinness only. And so it felt like there was all this pressure to stay thin to not, you know, not have a relapse that and then when I was in high school high school, I could outrun my eating. Like, I I got up every morning. Like, you know, I mean, I was I ran a lot.

Ali Shapiro [00:43:50]:
Like, I definitely was like, okay. And you get attention, you know, from for me, for boy from boys, it was like, oh, this is amazing. You know? But then when I went to college, which again was that uncertainty trigger, even though I was really excited to go, I was a smart kid. Like, it wasn't academically challenging. It was just, oh my god. This is different. It was like I start my emotional eating started to turn more into binging and stuff like that. And so that that's like a brief, you know, history of of my background.

Ali Shapiro [00:44:18]:
But yeah. No. This is and, again, when I found functional medicine in my early twenties and was able to reverse my depression, my IBS, all of this stuff, and lose 15 pounds, but then I couldn't keep it up when I was stressed. I'm like, no one has more incentive to be healthy than a cancer survivor. And I know this stuff now that food can be medicine, not just calories. And I was like, there has to be more to this because I'm pretty disciplined. So that's kind of how I I came to it. And I just you know this.

Ali Shapiro [00:44:47]:
I mean, being I love what you do because you can be with the nuance, but the default narratives in this industry are just, like, so outdated. And it's like, come on, people. Like, let's update our software here. You know?

Philip Pape [00:44:59]:
Hi. My name is Lisa, and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, Philip Pigg. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple, longevity. I wanna be healthy, active, and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition.

Philip Pape [00:45:22]:
There's a plan to it, and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide, and that really helped me. So thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape [00:45:43]:
I get the sense you know, I don't wanna generalize, but I get the sense that people, once they learn a little bit of information, they're experts. Right? You know what I'm saying?

Ali Shapiro [00:45:49]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape [00:45:51]:
And and I mean I mean, maybe we all do it. I'm sure I do it as well. I try not to. I was having a text chat with a friend of mine, lifting buddy, and we were saying how both of us had had mentors early on that taught us the value of of humility and, like, asking stupid questions, like, asking and I told him I had a, a boss of mine maybe fifteen years ago who knew you know, he had twenty years of experience, and he would always go into a new project asking questions like a third grader. Like, I initially was shocked because he would ask questions that I would I feel like other people would feel embarrassed to ask, but then you realize everybody else wanted to ask the same question you could tell because they're like, oh, I'm glad he asked that. And and then that's how he was just learning really fast. So why did I bring that up? Because oh, we're talking about the industry, and I think there has to be that curiosity and openness that you don't know what you don't know. Right? Which is

Ali Shapiro [00:46:39]:
That's the hardest part.

Philip Pape [00:46:40]:
And even what you do know may be subject to change because you don't have all the facts or all the information. So the other cool thing is about you, Ali, since we met how did how did we meet? I don't know. It was through podcast pitching or something. Right?

Ali Shapiro [00:46:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. I Something

Philip Pape [00:46:53]:
like that. In fact, you probably your person probably reached out to me, and then I'm like, can I go on your podcast too? Because that's my technique nowadays is try to, like, set up a collaboration. You know? And and but, anyway, where where was I going with all this? That you and I come to this from different places, the same intent. Like, we wanna help people, obviously. But, like, I couldn't figure all this out till I was 40, and I did it in a different way than necessarily uncovering the emotional side. But when I speak to folks like you, who's an expert in this other realm, I love it because you're like, you come on here and you teach me and the listener that there are just so many things that we can not that we have to be overwhelmed with, but that we have tools to process with, right, to get through these. Like because I talk about data all the time and tracking and awareness, and I think there's a place for that. Yes.

Philip Pape [00:47:44]:
But some people have other trauma and things that they they gotta deal with, an unnamed energy or what did you call it? You called it unnamed

Ali Shapiro [00:47:51]:
Oh, some clients call it Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, because some clients call it automatic pilot. Some clients feel like they're like, something voracious just comes over me. Yeah. And what it really is is their emotional immune system is so alarmed that they feel so unsupported or their needs are not being met. And there's no amount of like, I always tell clients, you can do you can you can do all the morning routines. You can you can have every hack available to you, but we have a primal need to have these caretaking needs met.

Philip Pape [00:48:19]:
Yeah. Belonging. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:48:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, I'm all about less is more. Like, you can self care is self being self aware these days. Don't get me wrong. I have a sauna too. I mean, I I'm not like a a purist here.

Philip Pape [00:48:34]:
No. For sure. Self care is being self aware. No. I love that. And it goes both ways. Yeah. Absolutely.

Philip Pape [00:48:39]:
So when the belonging thing so just to to pull on that a little bit, when we talk about the tail method and and understanding where these can things come from, how do we then get to the trust that we want? That's the big question. A good good way to maybe wrap up the segment today.

Ali Shapiro [00:48:58]:
But I will say for people I mean, I'm not gonna get into, like, the boring academic piece of why this happens. But when people can just start to identify those tail triggers, if they are, like, in in truth with who we talk about seven inch, seven foot, 70 foot waves, if they're seven inch waves, like, they're just like, oh, I'm tired. That sometimes that's enough to be like, this the more you do it, the more you're like, oh, this isn't about the food. Yeah. And so, like, the more you can see that, even that starts to restore self trust because so many of my clients, like, I have tried everything. Right? If there was a solution out there, I would've I would've already known by now. Like, it's they really feel like they're broken in some way or they love food too much. That's that's also sometimes what people think.

Ali Shapiro [00:49:38]:
So understanding why does this make sense, what's at the tail end of this, that can start, especially in those seven inch smaller stressful situations, start to be like, ugh. So the needs are when you're tired, you need rest. And people think rest is just sleeping. No. There's physical rest, which is I mean, this is your wheelhouse. It's walk it's walking, nonexercise.

Philip Pape [00:50:01]:
Recovery. Yeah. Yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:50:02]:
Yeah. Non exercise activity thermogenesis. Right? Right? Neat activities. Right? I mean, I can't tell you how many of my clients I, like, gently suggest. I'm, like, walking after meals, walking when you're stressed, walking to be more creative. And it's like once it and it's like all of us who are super competitive have dismissed walking because we're like, it doesn't count. It's not fast. It's not intense.

Ali Shapiro [00:50:23]:
It's amazing. It is. Other kind of rest. And I'm pulling on I I forget her name's work. This is someone's work who has identified these type of rest, but there's emotional rest. Right? So hiring someone like you or coming into truce with food where you can have someone help you figure out what's going on. Right? And so that's not all on you. So there's different kinds of rest that you can again, and I like focusing on needs because it offers flexibility.

Ali Shapiro [00:50:47]:
Right? I mean, some of my clients, I've I'm just thinking of one client. She's a partner in a law firm, you know, and she's on the Fiftieth Floor of the building. And it's like so many of these ideas for, like she's like, I get you know, I bill every six minutes. I don't even have time to go down the elevator to the Fiftieth Floor. You know? I mean well, now she's a partner now. She's not the same. But point being is you have to be able to find something that can fit your environment. Right? No.

Ali Shapiro [00:51:11]:
That's why focusing on needs enables flexibility. With uncertainty or, anxiousness is often how people can identify that, is you need to feel resourced. People think they need to feel in control. That's not true. You need to feel resourced in amongst that. So, like, if you think about during COVID, you know, if you were someone struggling with with food, how could you have resourced yourself more? And that might mean, you know, I know we were, like, daycares. Like, there were no daycares. I just had a baby.

Ali Shapiro [00:51:40]:
It was, like, we never planned on having a nanny, but we ended up having to get a nanny so that, like, we could both work. And it it was not the expense that, you know, we planned on paying, but it was like, I don't know how long this is gonna happen. And my husband and I both work, so it was like, you know, you have to find resourcing. And resourcing can also be rest. Right? So some of these Yes. You know

Philip Pape [00:52:00]:
Time resource. Yep.

Ali Shapiro [00:52:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. But always plan for more time and energy than you think you're gonna do when you have to resource. Yes.

Philip Pape [00:52:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. We were just we were talking about your new program that you're launching and how, like, the amount of work that that creates that you don't necessarily expect. And now all of a sudden, it's it's blocks in your schedule you didn't account for, and you're like, okay. Now I need to move things around. But you have a really excellent a great way of communicating, Ali, that I appreciate here. I hope the listeners do as well where just the way you put the emotional rest right there, that term, I'm gonna be using that from now on. Honestly, it's a simple two words that I haven't quite heard people use that.

Philip Pape [00:52:35]:
But the fact that you need support and community and someone else to lean on is really, really important. Because not only does it give you the emotional rest, right, it gives you the extra it's like you're borrowing their whole history and experience to be your partner, you know, in this thing. And so then creates future emotional rest too by accelerating your knowledge and your everything. So yeah.

Ali Shapiro [00:52:57]:
I just wanna give credit. That is not my term. There's a woman. She's her doc. I forget what her name is. I'm, like, totally blanking right now. But she is the one who came up with seven types of rest. So I just wanna make sure.

Ali Shapiro [00:53:08]:
And she

Philip Pape [00:53:08]:
I wasn't saying you trademarked it or anything. It's like Kleenex. You know? Like, just I

Ali Shapiro [00:53:12]:
think that's a problem. Like, I really think, like true. Give you know, giving sourcing,

Philip Pape [00:53:16]:
rooting

Ali Shapiro [00:53:16]:
Purple. Back from where the people who have contributed because we're it's all a conversation. We're all we're all, you know, having conversations together, so I just wanna give her her credit. But I I feel like I'm so if you Google seven types of rest, she has a TED talk. It will come up.

Philip Pape [00:53:30]:
I'm gonna do that, seven types of rest because that that again is is a very nebulous topic when people talk about rest and recovery. You know, even when I try to do it, it's like

Ali Shapiro [00:53:38]:
spiritual rest, creative rest. Yeah. Different there's active and passive physical rest, emotional rest, and I'm forgetting, a couple of the other oh, sensory rest.

Philip Pape [00:53:48]:
Okay.

Ali Shapiro [00:53:49]:
So which you know? So

Philip Pape [00:53:50]:
I know I know what that is without even having explained to me. Right. I need some sensory rest. Not right now. This is actually a very rejuvenating conversation. So Good. Good. Do you wanna do it to

Ali Shapiro [00:54:01]:
I and l for the needs as well?

Philip Pape [00:54:04]:
Oh, well, I what do you mean? From tail?

Ali Shapiro [00:54:07]:
Yeah. So I did t and a.

Philip Pape [00:54:09]:
Yeah. Oh, you mean because we're revisiting it. Yes, please.

Ali Shapiro [00:54:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I is when we're feeling inadequate, we need a compassionate witness. And this is important because I wanna define it because a compassionate witness isn't someone who's gonna try to swoop in and fix it for you. Right? So a lot of times when my clients are like, oh, I'm struggling with my food and why did I fall off track? It's like they'll they'll go to, like, the one person that knows they're struggling, and they're like, you're beautiful. Don't worry about it.

Ali Shapiro [00:54:35]:
Or someone's like, why are you still hung up on that? You know? And it's like, okay. You want someone who trusts that you can figure it out if you just have the space to, like, have a soft landing. So I just wanted to define that for people because and that's why working with someone like you or me and Truth with Food, you know, is like someone who's like, I know how to support you in this with, like, you know, making you more self sufficient, but you first have to, like, know what's happening and all that stuff. But a compassionate witness with anything. Right? Like, even, you know, like, my mom friends. Like, sometimes I'm just like, oh my god. I'm so tired. Like, you know, you could take care of yourself, whatever.

Ali Shapiro [00:55:13]:
But when you have a toddler and are working and daycare closes, and just people being like, I know. Right? Like, it's just like, I feel seen. You know? And that actually brings me to l, which is loneliness. And loneliness, we all have a need to feel significant. We have a need to feel like we are contributing and that we matter. And so, really, when we're feeling alone, we have to feel like even our struggles are important in matters. So, like, even if you're my client who's in the cupboard struggling with parenting, it's like, okay. What's important to me here? How you know, do I need to get support? How do I wanna show up to myself? What do I value maybe? Is is that need that that needs to be significant? But those are the the four needs that that come with those triggers.

Ali Shapiro [00:55:57]:
And then what as those get satisfied, you stop turning to food because the real safety or belonging need is being satiated.

Philip Pape [00:56:04]:
Is being met. So that wraps the whole thing up really nicely. Right? Because you've got the true needs. You're satisfying them no longer with food. Alright. Beautiful. I love that. Is there anything else we didn't it's a lot.

Philip Pape [00:56:16]:
I know. And is there anything else we didn't cover that you wish I'd asked about in this whole realm?

Ali Shapiro [00:56:21]:
No. I think it's a great question. I really appreciate you sharing your story because I think that prompted everyone else who's listening to think about that for themselves.

Philip Pape [00:56:29]:
Yeah. I could probably do that more. I maybe I have a little bit of a wall when it comes to that stuff, but it's all good. Alright. Cool. So I know there's a lot going on in your world. I would like listeners to be able to find you. I also know you have a a program launching this month, and normally, we don't do big promotions on this.

Philip Pape [00:56:46]:
But for this specifically, I do want people to know everything you just talked about, they can get that kind of support. So tell us where they can find you.

Ali Shapiro [00:56:53]:
Yeah. If people wanna go to alieshapiro.com and, like Philip said, my truce with food program, which this is actually the fourteenth year I've run it, or it'll be the fifteenth year, and it's been featured in all sorts of media. Well, my clients' weight loss success has been featured in media. But it's a six month program that helps you author a new story around belonging to find food freedom. No white knuckling required. It's six months, thirteen group coaching calls with me, and a research based client proven framework. Because, again, frameworks create choice, help you become more self aware versus, I attract a lot of perfectionists who, you know, think it's like, oh my god. Am I gonna have to white knuckle and and perform this perfectly? And it's not that.

Ali Shapiro [00:57:32]:
And then we also do cover the food piece around blood sugar and gut health. And so yeah. Because it's it's an integrated program, and it is life changing. And people can go to alieshapiro.com backslash truce with food group program, and you can see a ton of testimonials. It's a very thorough page. I'm a very thorough research based person, but I also, you know, academia and theories can only take you so far, so you'll see the real world applications. So for people who want deep and practical, this is like and really want to learn that consistency, staying on track, and to eliminate all like, free up all the energy that the food noise, takes and and puts that in a different direction for 2025, this is the program for them.

Philip Pape [00:58:16]:
Awesome. I will encourage people to check it out. I'm gonna include the exact link. We'll make sure we get the right link in there for folks. So take them right there from the show notes. And I encourage you, if you're listening, if this sounds like something you could use the help with and reduce your emotional get some more emotional rest, Alex seems like the right person to go to. So Ally, thank you so much for having this amazing conversation, sharing your expertise, your wisdom, your positive energy. It was great to have you on.

Ali Shapiro [00:58:40]:
Thank you, Philip, for having me, and I'm looking forward to having you on Insatiable.

Philip Pape [00:58:43]:
Me as well. Looking forward to it.