Hold My Cutter
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Hold My Cutter
Kent Tekulve on Iconic Pitching, Reliever Evolution, and Pirates' Historic Moments
Step into the world of baseball lore with our special guest, the legendary Kent Tekulve, renowned for his iconic sidearm pitching and unmatched durability on the mound. Discover the untold stories of his career as he led the National League in appearances and held the record for the most games pitched in relief. With humor and a touch of nostalgia, we imagine how Kent's career might have unfolded in today's game with new roles like the "opener." This episode promises a rich tapestry of insights into his exceptional journey and the evolution of pitching mechanics over the decades.
Join us for a fascinating exploration of the intricate dynamics between starting and relief pitching. We'll share candid experiences from the minor leagues, shedding light on the unique mindset and adaptability required for relievers. Hear about the memorable performances of Goose Gossage and his impact on the 1977 season, and relive the thrilling moments of a dramatic doubleheader victory in 1978. With strategic insights and personal reflections, this episode captures the unpredictability and excitement that make baseball history so compelling.
As we recount Kent's transition from a minor league starter to a major league closer, we also delve into the strategic lineup changes that defined a pivotal season for the Pirates. Discover how key acquisitions like Tim Foley and Bill Madlock strengthened the team's competitiveness, and relive the excitement of the 1979 World Series. With anecdotes of favorite managers, teammates, and unforgettable games, this nostalgic journey through baseball's rich past offers a celebration of the sport's enduring appeal and strategic depth.
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We welcome you to another episode of Hold my Cutter here at Burn by Rocky Patel. We're just a few blocks down from PNC Park on the North Shore. We have a very special guest this episode and he and our guests will receive gift cards from David Allen, david Allen Clothing. Great opportunity for you to stop by Pittsburgh's premier men's custom suit and custom clothing store in Mount Lebanon on Washington Road. David Allen Clothing gift cards to our guests, and our guest has suggested this is one of Michael McHenry's favorites the Rocky Patel no 6. You like this one?
Speaker 2:I do. I call it the devil's breath.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well our guest calls it the Rennie Stennett, with good reasoning, but it has a 95 rating. Am I right on that Teague, rennie Stennett?
Speaker 3:It's the best no 6 I've ever heard. Okay.
Speaker 1:And our thanks. Thanks as always to eric katz from berkshire hathaway home services. Ask eric katzcom ask a-r-a-h-k-a-t-z. Ask eric katzcom. Yeah, here at uh, burned by rocky patel and the number six, uh is a tremendous cigar, a great smoke and, in case you haven't guessed, kent to colby is our guest, a former teammate teague was saying this is kind of like a jumbo hot dog. Was he saying that? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I mean it kind of looks like it, right, it's a ballpark hot dog. I mean, look at that thing.
Speaker 3:A bun that would fit right in there. You could actually sell that one as a super dog.
Speaker 1:You could drop down a sacrifice bunt with that.
Speaker 3:It could be a Superdog.
Speaker 1:He could drop down a sacrifice bunt with that you probably could.
Speaker 3:No one would want to waste it on a sacrifice bunt, you know hey they used to use bats like this Just, no handle just all barrel.
Speaker 2:It's unreal.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. Teak was a great hitter in his day. Oh yeah, he was telling me all about it. Also his base running.
Speaker 2:I don't know about it. Also, his base running. You were telling me about that too. You were telling me about that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Kent DeColvi, of course. 16 years in the big leagues, 184 saves. Just a remarkable career, so many accolades, an All-Star in 1980, of course, world Series champion with the Pittsburgh Pirates, pirates Hall of Famer. And it all started well even before Marietta College.
Speaker 3:Wait a minute.
Speaker 1:Wait a minute, let's stop right here. No, let's start right here.
Speaker 3:Okay, let's start right here. Hey, you just talked about what a great hitter I am. Not one number did you mention had anything?
Speaker 1:to do with my hitter. Is there anything good I can say about your hitting? Give me something. I had about 20 sacrifice bumps. Well, that's pretty good. That's 20 more than McHenry had, but you weren't asked to bunt much.
Speaker 2:You were a cleanup hitter in your day. I don't know about that, but didn't get us often.
Speaker 3:Notice the emphasis on sacrifice. Not bunting for a hit. You had to run fast to get to first base.
Speaker 2:Did you ever think you were going to get there, though? Did you ever fight for it?
Speaker 3:or did you just kind of give that? Got it down, jogged a first, usually on the bunts. I knew when it was down it was okay, it was going to get the job done. It was the numbers that I would hit in the infield that I would all of a sudden have this flashback of being 15 years old and thinking I could still beat it out. I usually found out number one I was out by three or four steps. And number two it took me about 20 more steps after I went by first base to actually get stopped. I wasn't one of those guys who could stop and just make a quick U you got long legs, I get it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was not pretty when I was at the plate.
Speaker 1:How about? Are you aware, michael McHenry, of this guy's durability?
Speaker 2:I was waiting. It's my favorite part about your career?
Speaker 1:It really is he led the National League in games four times, 90 or more games. Say that again yeah, 90 or more games, 90 or more games three times. But do you know he has the record, the National League record, for most games pitched in the history of the National League. He's right here In relief, in relief, yeah, in relief. And how many is that? Let's see, he'd probably know I think it's 1,050.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 1,050 1,050 games yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 3:And the most innings pitched in relief. The least number of games ever started in the major leagues Zero.
Speaker 1:That's relief right there.
Speaker 3:That's pure relief. No, that's only being able to do one thing. Well and doing it well, you and your manager, both understanding that that's the only thing you can do.
Speaker 1:By the way, however, if you had pitched in the modern era, you'd have been an opener. You'd have been a pretty good opener.
Speaker 2:You would have gotten a start.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, that would have ruined the record though.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:You would not have liked that.
Speaker 3:The opener's only been around for like 10 years. Yeah, the game's been around for 150 years.
Speaker 1:I like being in the 150-year category, okay but let's just rewind the clock, let's go back and let's just say that Danny Murtaugh or John Felski comes over to you and says hey, you're going to be our opener tomorrow, You're going to say what's that? Well, what is that he would?
Speaker 3:have got what a can of beer. Nobody knew what an opener was, except we did know one thing about an opener that if you lost on opening day, there would be no more beer sales in the rest of the season at the ballpark because we had lost the opener and you couldn't have any beer.
Speaker 2:Nobody knew that much, knew that we had lost the opener and you couldn't have any beer. We knew that much. We didn't know openers.
Speaker 3:But the idea of starting. Actually, you mentioned Murtaugh and you mentioned Felski. Neither one of them brought it up. Chuck did actually bring it up a couple times. We did discuss it a couple times, but Chuck being the smart man, he was found a better option, like go to the minor leagues and call Eddie Whitson up. Okay.
Speaker 1:It was a pretty good idea one time. By that point, you're the closer and they're not going to start. It's a huge risk too.
Speaker 2:They're not going to open up with a closer Every time they do it, it's a huge risk because you don't know how they're going to handle it and if they're pitching really well and it. Yeah, I think when a guy's having success, you double down on it.
Speaker 3:Well, my biggest concern when we talked about it was how am I going to warm up? I can't warm up for 20 minutes. My God, I'll be out of gas before I get. I won't be able to walk from the bullpen into the dugout. Yeah, so I was actually going to go throw for about 25 pitches in the batting cage in the clubhouse and then just walk out to the mound and pitch the first inning. If we ever did it, we never got to it That'd be terrifying.
Speaker 2:Just walks out of the dugout. Nobody's seen him yet, yeah.
Speaker 1:Rubber band man baby. That was the only note.
Speaker 3:You have these injuries and pitching changes, and I was involved in a lot of those over the course of my career. If somebody would get hurt, I had to come in you know, without warming up their ability. Yeah, and I had the ability to warm up quickly. I mean, it only took me 18, 20 throws and I could be ready to pitch.
Speaker 2:What's the least amount to go in like that you did in your career.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, we'll finish the first one first. Okay, 18 pitches or whatever to get in. So I knew that I could do that. So if I got called into a game and it was like a Sunday afternoon and I knew the umpires they were flying commercial, then had commercial flights that they had to fly out Sunday night to get to where they were going I would ask the third base umpire on the way, by what time did you guys fly? And he'd say it's like 6 o'clock, we've got to get there. Boom, I'd throw 18 pitches. They were happier than hell with me. Boom, boom, boom.
Speaker 1:They're all calling strikes. That's analytics right there.
Speaker 2:That's analytics.
Speaker 3:Got to know your umpires.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Know how to take care of them and they would take care of you. On the other side I had this thing with Chuck that if for some reason we got into a game and all of a sudden something happened, real quick, bing, bing, couple base hits, a walk, a hit batter, whatever, and he hadn't gotten me up yet and he needed me to be ready to go in now for the next batter. Send the catcher out. Do the usual thing Send the catcher out. Catcher gets chased back, Walk out slowly, Kill as much time as you can. By the time the umpire says Chuck, you've got to make a decision, I told him I will be ready. I could get ready in 10 to 12 pitches in the summer when it was warmer, and in 10 to 12 pitches and feel comfortable enough to pitch to the first hitter.
Speaker 1:Okay, because of that. So that's a secret weapon? Then? Yes, because the opposing manager doesn't see anybody warming up in the bullpen.
Speaker 3:That's a really good point.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get to Colby.
Speaker 3:The opposing manager is doing a dance in his dugout because his guys are coming out of the dugout and getting on base so quick. He's not worried about who's in the bullpen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again I'm going back to this day and age where they concern themselves with who's up in the bullpen and whatnot. I mean, did, did. Did tanner do that often? No, it didn't happen.
Speaker 3:Often, yeah no, it was. It was more of a situation of if you need this, I can do that. If you need, if you get caught in this situation and you, you know, haven't, haven't gotten me up already or haven't started me, I can be ready, that's that's incredible, because in today's game they kind of create a threshold for them.
Speaker 2:You created a threshold and said this is what I need. To feel comfortable, that's the way it should be. Like I can do it in 12 pitches. I can pitch four days in a row. We just don't hear that much anymore. That's really cool.
Speaker 3:Well, that was kind of the way everybody did it back then. The communications were two-way between the managers and particularly the relief pitchers, about how you felt after you pitched two or three or four days in a row.
Speaker 2:And you were willing to say I don't feel great yeah.
Speaker 3:That's cool. We got to the point with Chuck that on a normal day, just say we were a normal day. I pitched an inning the night before. I pitched two innings the night before. Whatever, if I don't come and talk to you and tell you something, count on me, I can pitch three innings. That was my normal.
Speaker 1:Three. I only got three.
Speaker 2:That's the thing we didn't talk about the games. Right Right 1050,. I caught Latroy Hawkins' thousandth game. It was a cool moment for me, but like thinking about him throwing two, three innings back-to-back days, no chance. Love you, latroy. Come on the podcast, but no chance. That's the difference of your all's era. Well, you're talking about the 1,050 games.
Speaker 3:I basically over that period of time, not bragging, I'm just saying I averaged an inning and a half per game over my career, for, you know, every appearance that I made averaged out to an inning and a half.
Speaker 2:You hear that.
Speaker 3:Some of them are a third or two thirds. If we'd come in you know we didn't just automatically start the ninth If Grant Jackson was pitching and he's pitching well, or whatever he would pitch and then all of a sudden they get a couple guys on, I might come in and get a save and only pitch a third of an inning. But then there were the other times where I would pitch three innings. And then there were the extreme times we had about, oh, I'd say four or five, maybe six of them over the course of my time with Chuck, where I actually, in double headers, pitched three innings in both games.
Speaker 1:That's called a start.
Speaker 2:Six innings quality start. I would throw three innings.
Speaker 3:in the first game it wasn't as bad as it thought, as you would think it was, because there was only 20 minutes between the games, so I was not pitching the second time after having, you know, gone home, slept. You know it wasn't a day night.
Speaker 2:I feel like when you wake up the next day you realize what you did. I I completely agree. I wish I would try that.
Speaker 3:That's beautiful but maybe not three innings both games. But that's pretty sick because I you know they needed me for both games. We only had five guys in the bullpen and the other guys were pitching too but take how much of that was was your style, because you were the.
Speaker 3:I mean definition of a rubber armed well, I think a lot of it was given to me by the guy. Yeah, yeah, above, um. I was fortunate that I, you know, the big joke was I did my arm never got tight because I didn't have any muscles to get you know at the time did you ever have arm problems at all?
Speaker 3:no, in your career seldom I finally went on the the disabled list when I was 41 years old, my second last year in Philadelphia. I went on for 15 days and it was basically just a tired rotator cuff. I had just thrown too many pitches and at that age it had finally given out on me. But I really never had any arm trouble at all. Part of it was the fact that I was just given an arm that was resilient and some guys could throw more than others. And I think the delivery because of the arm being down so far where you can tighten your shoulders or your muscles in your tendons up in the upper part of your shoulder that's usually where your tightness comes from. Well, well, with my arm slot and throwing from down here, my muscles and tendons while I was throwing were always on my shoulder bone, so they were supported. The normal guy takes his arm and lifts it up. Here. All these muscles, all these tendons are up in the air and they're not supported. So therefore they're doing the same amount of work that I was doing, they're putting the same amount of strain on them that I had, but they don't have the support that I had. So I think that was factored in with all the other things that we talked about that allowed me to do what I did.
Speaker 3:Did you always pitch that way? I, of course. You remember Bruce Keeson. Yeah, bruce Keeson and I were twins. My whole life. I was a dead sidearm pitcher and in fact, my first year in 1969 in the New York Penn League, bruce and I were on the same team. He had just been drafted the year before out of high school and I signed out of college. So we're on the same team and that, of course, 1969 is the year after 1968 when Bob Gibson had the 112 run average. They lowered the mound 112. They did all this other stuff. You don't remember Bob Gibson's?
Speaker 2:112. I do, I do Every time I hear it, it just makes me go. What?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so they decided okay, the hitters. You know it's too tough on the hitters, we're going to lower them. So it went from 18 inches to 11 inches. They dropped the mound down.
Speaker 2:So you were right in the middle of that.
Speaker 3:Huh, you were right in the middle of that.
Speaker 2:I was right in the middle of out on the mound the first time Did it feel like you were throwing on flat ground?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the idea was that it was supposedly going to make it easier on the hitters and the pitchers weren't going to be able to have as much of an advantage. Professionally, my entire career I pitched on an 11-inch mound, or what was supposed to be an 11-inch mound. The one in Houston was about 18 inches, and JR Richards was 6'8" and he was throwing downhill from the top of the Astrodome, and Dodger Stadium was probably a little higher than the other ones. They didn't regulate it quite as well as they do now.
Speaker 3:But no, you got used to it and it was just part of you got used to it and you know that was just part of what you got used to and it affected the guys that threw sidearm less than it affected the guys that threw overhand, because they were using the downhill plane to develop leverage to throw it. We were developing our power from twisting in our long arms and our long legs. We had long arms. You know most of those guys. The guys that you saw were tall and thin.
Speaker 3:Okay, so, we had long arms, long legs. We had longer levers than most guys, so we could develop power that way, because we didn't have the strength in our shoulders and in our body to develop that downhill playing that everybody else the normal pitchers were doing.
Speaker 2:Thinking about how much that would mess up your biomechanics. You know, seven inches is a big deal because they're stride length, everything else mess it up.
Speaker 3:I want to go back and your foot's sitting on the ground before it's supposed to.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:You're like oh man, there we go, there were a lot of guys in spring training that year that when they were making the switchover, they were actually stumbling when they were pitching because their front foot was coming back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my goodness, absolutely, because they're used to that. They call it riding the slope Right. Where'd the slope go right? Yeah, the slope's gone, you're on the body slopes. Now You're like ooh ooh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy, but just want to clarify. So you always threw that way.
Speaker 3:I always threw sidearm. That's what I mean. I threw that way all the way until I got the double A ball and there was an old scout in the organization by the name of George Detour. He had been around forever.
Speaker 2:So when did that start, though? Like talking about high school, college, when you started throwing sidearm.
Speaker 3:When I was nine years old the first time I picked up the ball.
Speaker 2:I'd catch it with my dad in the backyard. You said I'm going to be a gunslinger.
Speaker 3:That was my natural way to throw Because I was always told I didn't have strength. So I had long arms and long legs and I developed that Slingshot and stayed that way all the way to high school, college, all the way up to double A ball. I run into George Detour one game. He's just going around watching teams in the organization. He sees me pitch one night and he says you know, teague, it says your ball when you're throwing. I'm still throwing sidearm.
Speaker 3:When it's around the edges of the strike zone it's moving really well. It really sinks good, everything's good, your slider's good, but when it actually gets into the strike zone, when it's in the actual strike zone, it's not moving as well. You got to find some way to get that movement in the strike zone Because what was happening was, as I was moving up levels, the hitters were getting better. They were swinging at fewer of those pitches that were on the outside edges of the strike zone and moving well, and they were waiting for me to throw balls that didn't move as well in the strike zone and I was starting to get hit harder, waiting for me to throw balls that didn't move as well in the strike zone and I was starting to get hit harder. So I had to figure out something to do to try to, you know, make it move like that in the strike zone. I tried to be like the normal guy and throw it overhand. How'd that go? That didn't go very well at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nine years old right, there's actually a term for what me throwing up here looks like. It's called batting practice. It's about 82 mile an hour. It's perfectly straight. It doesn't move. Good job, Scout. Yeah. Well, no, Scout didn't do it, you just got to try it. Yeah, they just tried it, it worked and whatever. So, anyway, I remember playing catch I'm trying to figure out how to get this movement in the strike zone Playing catch with a guy I can't even remember who.
Speaker 3:It was now one of my teammates before the game in Nile Field, and I grew up in Cincinnati and the Reds when I was a kid I was about 10, 11 years old had a journeyman reliever by the name of Ted Abernathy who threw from down here. He was one of the rare guys that I'd ever seen throw there. He was with the Reds for a few years, middleman type of guy, and for some reason he popped into my head while we're playing catch. Well, I'm throwing side run. Oh yeah, Abernathy, he used to throw down here. I just dropped down and I throw one down there. The ball hits the guy that I'm playing catch with in the knee.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a good feeling the bottom just falls out, he can't even get a glove on it.
Speaker 1:Wow, it's called handcuffs.
Speaker 3:I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I'm looking at this going. Hmm, we may have found something here.
Speaker 2:So you just dropped your arm. Saw a little bit lower.
Speaker 3:I dropped it to about down in here somewhere. About one quarter instead of half Side arm is half so it's about a quarter.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't a slingy right.
Speaker 3:It was sinking and sliding, sinking and moving in that direction. Eventually I played with it and moved it. You've got to do other things, but it was just the idea that all of a sudden Ted Abernathy pops into my head. The answer to my question is how do I get the movement in the strike zone has now been answered. I knew after one throw playing catch in the outfield.
Speaker 2:I got the answer to the problem. That's the aha moment. That's the aha moment.
Speaker 3:So now the second part of the equation is okay, that's a really good fastball. How in the heck am I going to throw a breaking?
Speaker 2:ball from down there I was waiting for this.
Speaker 3:So it took me about two, maybe two and a half years to figure out actually how to throw a breaking ball from down there. That wasn't something that went up in the strike zone. There's one guy I can't remember his name. That was San Francisco.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tyler Rogers. I think it's Rogers. Yeah, Tyler Rogers.
Speaker 3:He actually throws a breaking ball that goes up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I call him Knuckles, because back then you wanted the ball moving down so they'd hit the top of the ball with the bottom of the bat gets it going to the ground, especially when you're throwing sinkers. So it took me a couple years to figure out exactly how to do that and that's where that fortunately happened. The rest of that AA a season and during, you know, my time in triple a, before I ever got to the big leagues. By the time I got to the big leagues in 70, well, 75, when I came up to stay, I pretty much had figured out how to do, how to mix the breaking ball and the sinker together, and I basically pitched with those two pitches for 15 years.
Speaker 2:So let's go back to catch play. What was catch play like for you? When did you start playing catch, whether it's after the season or before spring training, and then also like what was the routine like? Because I mean, they got gizmos and gazmos, they got trinkets, they got everything going on.
Speaker 3:Nowadays, I want to hear about how you used to do it in the normal 150 years, as you were talking about okay, so you're talking about when, when I'm playing in the minor leagues or early in my major league, or my whole major league?
Speaker 2:career. Yeah, you go minor league, major league, however you want to take it.
Speaker 3:My off-season throwing program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, season ends. Take me all the way to the season. And then how you threw in season.
Speaker 3:Okay, very simple, won't take long.
Speaker 2:I knew it wouldn't. We've had this conversation and I want fans to hear it, because we talk about pitch counts, we talk about all these things and talking to guys like you, it is such a simplicity.
Speaker 3:It makes me happy Because I threw so much and I was so skinny and not really strong, Very mobile. Yeah, we didn't lift weights back then. We used them more for stretching than anything else 12-ounce cans, 12-ounce cans.
Speaker 3:But my off-season conditioning program consisted of the last day of the season. I put all my equipment in my equipment bag. I put the ball in the glove, I put the glove in the bag, I zipped the bag shut and I handed it to John Hallahan, our equipment manager. He put it away and he put it over the next year. He would load it on the truck, he would take it down to spring training. He would bring it out the first day of spring training. He'd put it over. He'd put it in my locker. I'd sunstrip the top of it.
Speaker 3:There he is, I'd take the glove out, I'd take the ball, I'd throw it in a couple times, feels good, feels good program. My arm was as much as I threw during the season needed the off-season to rest, to heal, to get strong again.
Speaker 2:So when you picked it back up.
Speaker 3:When I first started throwing in spring training, it was terrible because I hadn't touched the ball for five months or whatever.
Speaker 2:And how long was spring training then?
Speaker 3:Middle of February, about six weeks.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, about the same. And by the time, in six weeks, I could go from not having thrown all winter long to being ready to close on opening day. I had a routine that I would go through during spring training, a way I would build up so that I didn't need to be throwing all winter long and I could let my arm rest and recover and then rebuild it during those six weeks to be ready for the season to start.
Speaker 2:That's why everybody's different. That's why I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because there's guys that can do that and do that well, and I absolutely love that. It's so funny.
Speaker 1:Just zip it up and show something sweet to you. See it again.
Speaker 3:Like I said, those first couple, I would get my brains beat out.
Speaker 3:The first couple of hours of spring training I mean the ball's not moving, it's got no velocity on it or anything else. And Chuck had come over and says yo, why don't you throw a little bit during the winter, just so you can? You know, don't get your brains beat out in spring training. I said, Chuck, I want to get my brains beat out in spring training. The more I get to throw during spring training, the quicker I'm going to get my arm strong and then tired, because I have to get it tired before opening day so that the ball sinks will you say that again?
Speaker 2:yes, I love that we do not talk about that today's game. Everything's about optimization. You got to get to that point where you know you find where you can stay all year long. So you hear that brownie oh yeah, I heard that my first spring training. He's like, yeah, I don't want to feel great going into that first game. I'm like what? Like no, if I feel too good, I'm moving too fast, I can't be who I am.
Speaker 3:Well, you've got to be that guy if you have to make the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you have to make the team.
Speaker 3:If you've got your position whether it's a setup guy, whether it's a closer, whether it's a starter, whatever it is then it changes to. I have to be ready to pitch on opening day.
Speaker 3:So, the first day of spring training is not now the start point, opening day is, which makes it easier because now you've only got to worry about six months instead of seven and a half months that you have to be competitive. Yep, that's the great advantage of having established your position on the club. Amen is that you only have to do it for six months. That first month and a half you don't have to do it, you know, you just find your way to get through it, to be where you want to be on opening day.
Speaker 2:It's exhausting right teak when you're fighting for that job. That month and a half is exhausting. It's like oh did I make the team and then you're just on the plane. You're like I guess I made the team.
Speaker 3:I don't know which is worse the physical exhaustion of having to bear down on every pitch, every hitter that you face, no matter if it's in a squad game, no matter if it's an exhibition game, no matter what it is. You've got to bear down and you've got to get that guy out. And then the mental part of it.
Speaker 2:The mental part, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I've got to do this, because if I don't do it today and I do it tomorrow and then I don't do it again the next day, that's not going to be good enough to make the team, or that's not good enough to be in the starting rotation, or whatever it is. That is a tough five weeks.
Speaker 2:It's a tough five weeks. You're exactly right.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that. But, teague, certainly when you were going pitching at Marietta College, you weren't thinking in a few years, I want to be a closer on a Major League baseball team, one of the best closers in baseball. How did that evolve? Where you became the closer?
Speaker 3:for the Pirates? Did that evolve where you became the closer? Well, I didn't. For the pirates I mean I literally. You know I was.
Speaker 3:I was started out in the minor leagues my very first year when I signed in the middle of 69 69, okay, when I was playing with bruce keeson in geneva, new york, and I was a starter because I'd been a starter in college and they needed starters there and so I was a starter that year. The next year you've got to understand the minor league system and how it works. In the minor leagues, the bulk of the innings they want to be pitched by the prospects, the guys that are going to be the good players, the guys that they've paid the money to, the guys that they envision as being the stars of the future. So therefore those guys are starters in the minor leagues, the guys you know. I was not viewed as that. I was viewed as somebody that just didn't pitch well enough last year that I get a chance to play again this year. So therefore, my second year in 1970, I got put into the bullpen, started as a setup guy and pitched well enough that by mid-season or so in 1970, I became the closer in Salem, virginia, in high-class A ball.
Speaker 3:I spent the rest of my minor league career as a reliever and pretty much as a closer all the way through, because when I got to the next level then I was pitching well. There I pitched well, I kept pitching well. So there was never I kind of earned the right to be the closer on a minor league team. So I earned that. So that was where that was my position in the minor leagues. I was a closer, I wasn't really. I don't know exactly when it had to be either late double-A or early triple-A before I was ever considered a prospect.
Speaker 3:You know nobody ever considered me to be the guy that was going to be in the big leagues. We called suspects, suspect yeah, I was a suspect for a long number.
Speaker 2:I went from a prospect to a big leaguer, to a suspect.
Speaker 3:You can go both ways.
Speaker 2:We had an all-suspect team in one of my teams I played with.
Speaker 3:You ever look in the general manager's office at that board?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the white board. It's got everybody's name on it on all the different levels.
Speaker 3:You can tell by the different colors who are the prospects and who are the suspects?
Speaker 2:That's so true. The prospects are high on the board.
Speaker 3:The suspects are low on the board, usually their name's spelled wrong Smaller font Maybe an asterisk or two. But that was kind of how I switched over to being a reliever was just the fact that I wasn't a prospect.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 3:And therefore I became a reliever in my second year of seven years in the minor leagues, which at the time I hated because I was of the same mentality that most people were at that time. Relief pitchers were guys that weren't good enough to start and I had always been a starter. And I had been a starter the year before and I'd pitched well, but I was being made a reliever. I didn't understand the pro ball, you know prospect suspect thing. So all of a sudden now I don't like being a reliever, but I gotta, I keep wanting to play, so I better do good at it. So, and then at the end it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me, because most guys, by the time they get to the big leagues, they've pitched, they've started the majority of their minor leagues. They get called to the big leagues and they get put in the bullpen because we need an arm in the bullpen, or we need this guy or that guy, or we need this, and they have no idea what to do.
Speaker 3:They don't even know how to warm up as a reliever, because they've always had 20 minutes and you start at this time and you say this may fastballs and this may curveballs, and then you do this, and then you take a breather and take a drink of water and you do this and you do that, and then you sit down for five minutes and then you start the game. Well, relievers don't do that.
Speaker 3:You've got to adjust to whole different programs and you don't know when you're going in and you don't know what the situation is when you're starting okay, it's going to be the top of the lineup in the first inning and we've got nine innings to go and the reliever you don't know, until you walk through that gate and walk out onto the field, what the situation's going to be. I I can't prepare for who the batter is. I can't prepare for what the situation is going to be, what scores. It's all up in the air. So I had six years of that in the minor leagues, experience of doing that, which actually turned into a huge advantage for me when I came to the big leagues, because I wasn't having to transition at that point against major league hitters to think like a reliever, understand situations like a reliever it was. I had already done it that part.
Speaker 2:It became your home. Yeah, I was more comfortable there.
Speaker 3:They put me back to being the starter. I would have been lost. So you know they weren't going to do that at 6'4 and 155 pounds, because about July I would have just melded into a puddle one day. But um, you know, it was a matter of I had that experience and then the other guys were coming in that I was competing with didn't have it. So that would actually turn into an advantage what was your?
Speaker 2:uh, real quick, before we move on from this, you talked about the starters routine a couple water, a couple fastballs away. What was your routine, the 18-pitch routine you were talking about with the catcher? Did you start with him up and then he got down and he threw eight fastballs?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would start up. This is one of my favorites. This is not the first time I've thrown the ball. All day long I've played catcher.
Speaker 2:Right, you played catcher earlier. You're about to go in and close the game. I'm stretched.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty loose physically but I would throw about four or five pitches, standing up almost three-quarter, just to get everything loose. Make sure you bend.
Speaker 3:Effort level like hard or soft, depending on the situation. If I needed to be ready quick, it was harder. If I knew I had time, it would be a little softer. My whole idea of warming up in the bullpen was just basically to get my arm loose, get the feel of my breaking ball. I didn't care exactly where it went, I just wanted to feel the release.
Speaker 3:Because what a lot of guys overlook is that when you go into the game, the game situation as far as the atmosphere that you're going to be throwing in is totally different than the one that you're warming up in. You know, if I'm warming up over at PMC Park, I'm warming up with a wall right next to me that's blocking all the wind. I'm throwing in a totally different direction. The sun's shining differently, everything is different. So if I get myself fine-tuned under those conditions and then I go out to the mound and all of a sudden there's a big hole in the mound where this other guy has been pitching and the wind's blowing this way instead of blowing this way and my breaking ball is moving more than so. I warmed my arm up in the bullpen. I used the eight pitches. When I got to the mound that I had before I had a pitch to the first hitter to fine tune the control.
Speaker 3:So it was loosen the body, loosen the arm, walk into the mound, fine tune the control in eight pitches, which took a while to learn how to do. But you know, because I was basically throwing three fastballs, three sliders, a couple more fastballs, and it was, you know, let's go. So, um, that was what I was doing. You know, those two different segments were two different parts of my routine. I never wanted to be fine-tuned in the bullpen.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:And it shows up. How many times have you guys? God, I felt terrible in the bullpen but all of a sudden my stuff was really good when I got in the game.
Speaker 2:I felt really good in the bullpen. I was sort of right where.
Speaker 3:I wanted to the game. I'm throwing it all over the place.
Speaker 2:Well, the condition changed. The condition changed. Most people don't talk about the elements enough. It's really good.
Speaker 1:Favorite bullpen ever. Favorite bullpen ever, and why?
Speaker 2:Besides the tradition you did, which you'll talk about in a minute.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we might Probably my favorite bullpen was Dodger Stadium. It's the same as Not so much because it was Dodger Stadium, although that was a great place to play. But you were in this little tunnel-like thing with the corrugated metal walls on two sides and a corrugated metal wall in front of you, facing the field, with a chain-link fence, basically as the background, right behind the catcher.
Speaker 3:It was the loudest noise, loudest Because you were in this tunnel with this corrugated metal all around you Pow If you got a catcher that had a good catcher's mitt and you make that noise, boom. You came out of there feeling like you're throwing a million miles an hour. Now you weren't.
Speaker 2:It's all about that confidence.
Speaker 3:It feels good, but you also don't want to try to throw fastballs by somebody. You can't throw fastballs by.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:You learn that that's being honest with yourself, but uh my favorite bullpen because of the fact that I mean the mound was always. I mean both mounds the field mound and the bullpen mound in dodger stadium were play.
Speaker 2:They were absolutely immaculate.
Speaker 3:You put your foot down. It stayed right there. There weren't any holes in it. Even late in the game, after three or four guys had warmed up on it, there were no holes in it. And you had that tube around you making everything sound like it's like 110 mile an hour. I felt like I was throwing like Goose Gossage did. I'm sure, and it was really fun to sit in the bullpen and listen to him warm up and it gets tighter too, bullpen and listen to him warm up, and it gets tighter too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gets narrower. You have the two bullpens and it gets tighter. So the guys are sitting there watching like man Teek's on it today.
Speaker 3:Boom. It's unreal how fast. Only the rookies.
Speaker 1:The rest of the guys knew they were doing the same thing Like oh, shut up rookies. Hey Teek, how fast do you think you threw?
Speaker 3:Probably, um, probably in my prime, with a little bit of breeze at my back, I probably I could probably touch 90, okay, uh, it was probably my, my fastest in my prime.
Speaker 1:You mentioned goose gossage, who came to the pirates, I think in 77, right 77? Um, what was it like I want to get to that too how you evolved into that closers role eventually. But what was it like to be in the bullpen with a guy like that, because if you throw him out there today, you wonder how fast he'd be throwing with the numbers that we're seeing now.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I mean, we didn't really do a whole lot of radar.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 3:I'm guessing that I was throwing 90.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he could have been throwing 97. He wouldn't, yeah, yeah, I he could have been throwing 97.
Speaker 3:He wouldn't yeah, I mean, but Goose, you know it was a combination of he threw hard, he was big, he had this giant fuzzy mustache thing yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was just arms and legs and stuff all over the place. There was nothing under control. And then all of a sudden, boom, this ball would come flying out. And the year that he was with us, I don't know that I ever saw in my entire 15-year major league career a reliever have a better year than he had in 77. I mean every pitch he had this tremendous fastball that everybody talked about. Nobody talked about his slider. He had a slider that was just late, hard broke, and both of them all year long. I mean he didn't hit a streak all year long where he didn't have perfect command of it.
Speaker 2:That fastball was knee-high on the outside corner. That's hard to do with a lot of legs and arms.
Speaker 3:It was inside. The slider was right there. I mean, it was the most dominant stuff that I ever saw. His best day came in against the Dodgers. I can't remember who was pitching. That was bases loaded, nobody out. Goose comes in. Nine pitches later the game's over with and nobody's hit a foul ball yet. Nine pitches later. Nine pitches later, nine pitches later he struck out three guys on nine pitches without a foul ball, with the bases loaded and nobody out Wow. And then he throwed his mustache Wow.
Speaker 3:He was stomping off the mound and in between pitches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he probably had a presence and people were terrified of him a little bit. Oh, he was, and in between pitches, yeah, but he probably had a presence and people were terrified of him a little bit.
Speaker 3:Oh, he was.
Speaker 2:You should have been yeah, and if you got hit, if you're hitting and you got hit by him, you knew it was on purpose.
Speaker 3:If you didn't know him in the clubhouse and you only knew him on the field, you'd be terrified of him too, because there was nothing pleasant about Goose anytime he walked out of that dugout onto the field in the bullpen. There was nothing pleasant at all about him. He was just mad, he was upset, he was going to strangle somebody and he was going to just somebody was going to have to pay hell for the fact that he wasn't feeling good today.
Speaker 2:I love my psychopaths out in the bullpen and you walk in the bullpen.
Speaker 3:and you walk in the bullpen and you know, walk into the clubhouse and he's just like everybody else. He grabbed a beer and you know we were running around and talking, but nobody else knew that but us.
Speaker 1:Chuck Tanner brought him in from the White Sox right.
Speaker 3:Because he had managed him. He had managed him in the White Sox, he and Terry Forrester and over in a trade in the um that would have been the winner of 76 for uh. Richie zisk, richie zisk went to the white socks man. What a team we ended up with. Uh, and goose and terry were both here for just the one year. 77 goose league became a free agent.
Speaker 3:I think terry did too I think so terry was got hurt a little bit more during that year, but goose Goose became the free agent, went to the Yankees and became the best reliever in baseball.
Speaker 1:So that's a contrast going from no disrespect from Goose Gossage to Kent DeColvie in 78, right.
Speaker 2:I had to make it worse too.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean in terms of opposing hitters.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's a different style yeah, and I think the Pirates were actually afraid of that. Hmm, yeah, and.
Speaker 3:I think the Pirates are actually afraid of that. Hmm, you know, because they obviously. I mean I had a great year in 75, or 77. Uh-huh, I mean, I was 10-1. We had a good hitting team. I would always come in down a runner or two. We'd score a runner or two as soon as I'd come. As soon as I'd, you know, they'd score the runs and we'd take the lead. I'm out. Goose is in game's over. I still have a hard time believing that I lost a game that year. Yeah, because I was 10-1. Jeez, but I was in the. You talk about being in the rocking chair. Yeah, I was in the rocking chair.
Speaker 2:Take a Goose yeah here's Goose.
Speaker 3:But now we go to Goose leaves, we go to 78, you would think, after being 10-1 and everything, that I would be the closer. But the Pirates at that time had gotten so enamored and so into Goose, this hard thrower that strikes a bunch of guys out, that you don't have to worry about errors, you don't have to worry about anything else. That's what they were looking for. They wanted to replace Goose with Goose 2.0. And they actually made a trade during that winter. In fact you didn't even remember no, I didn't Is we made a trade with Cleveland to get Jim Bibby.
Speaker 3:So the original plan in 78 was that Jim Bibby was going to be the closer because Bibby's 6'6 and throws hard and he's got these giant hands and sweats like crazy and he kind of has the goose personality. He's got all that and the only problem was Jim wasn't cut out to be a closer. I can't explain what it is, but there's something about closers that are a different personality and you can't define it. You can't define it, you can't teach it. It's just either there or it's not there. Jim did not have it, so he was the closer for the first month of the season. I actually took over around May 1st as the closer in 78. And then I saved 31 games from there out to the rest of the season.
Speaker 3:That was the year that we almost caught the Phillies at the end of the regular season, which was one of the greatest pennant chases I think I've ever been in. It was never so much fun to be 12 games behind in the middle of August, as it was in 1970.
Speaker 1:I remember being a fan and reading something in the Pittsburgh Press about Chuck Tanner after you guys had lost. I don't know what it was like going into the middle of August like 11 games out or something and you just lost. I think you got swept by the Phillies, who you're chasing in the National.
Speaker 3:League East and it's just devastating and we're going to the West Coast, which is the worst place in the world to go.
Speaker 1:And you know just reading the story in the paper, tanner said something like this isn't the end, this might just be the beginning, and you're thinking right what?
Speaker 2:that's a bold statement.
Speaker 1:It was all and the teams, the pirates won 23 consecutive home games from that point on 23 straight home games.
Speaker 3:The exact question chuck got was. He says well, you know, because we just got swept by the phillies and of course the phillies, everybody knew that was the team you had to beat. And the question was well, now that the Phillies, you know you're this far behind the Phillies, this is you know, you're starting to look forward to next year and you're going to start playing. You know some of the younger guys are doing whatever. And that's when Chuck made the statement and says you know, don't be in too much of a hurry. Sometimes when you think it is the end, it might just be the beginning.
Speaker 2:What did that do in the clubhouse? Because you guys get the paper. You see what he said. But he's such a positive guy.
Speaker 1:You weren't surprised by it, were you? We heard that all the time.
Speaker 3:But that had to mean something, right it actually in reality, because you've got to be who you are. We were kind of like everybody else, we were kind of laughing at him too. He says what are you?
Speaker 1:kidding, are you nuts?
Speaker 3:We're this far behind the Phillies.
Speaker 1:Are you crazy? They just won 100 games in a row. What have?
Speaker 2:you been doing. That's great, yeah, I mean, it wasn't like this, but it takes that crazy belief right.
Speaker 3:It wasn't something like an inspirational thing that drove them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's go get them.
Speaker 2:Let's go catch the Phillies. No, it wasn't that at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but when your leader believes it has to mean something, that's cool, it was just right around that time we happened to get hot, went to the West Coast and got hot, won like 10 or 11 out of 12, which you normally don't do. And the Phillies, who did not go to the West Coast at the same time we did, they went at a different time, so they were playing on the East Coast and they hit a slump After that. It could have almost been with them they might have won all those games for months and said, okay, we got this taken care of now and they went into a slump and we were just I don't know why we just started playing good ball and started winning games on the West Coast, where you usually didn't win games. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:And did not lose at home until toward the very end of the year.
Speaker 2:That's got to be close to the record right.
Speaker 1:Well, it was a pirate record for sure, and it came down to the last four games of the season against the Philadelphia Phillies. So awesome Win a wild, twinight doubleheader on a Friday night.
Speaker 3:I won both of those night. Double header on a Friday night. I won both of those, did you really?
Speaker 1:I won both of those games, One was a walk-off throw away First one fly ball into right center field. Gary Maddox Gary Maddox and Batry run together.
Speaker 3:They both stop Two of the best outfielders in the National League. They both stop. The ball drops Hits on the ester turf Bounces straight up in the air.
Speaker 2:Like a trampoline.
Speaker 3:Love Like a trampoline.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 3:Ed Ott was on first base. He's going to third base. They're trying to throw him out at third base. He's out by 15 feet. He shouldn't be running to third base. We're down a couple runs Tie game. We're tied. He's already in scoring position. He shouldn't be going to third base Ball hits him in the shoulder, bounces him in the dugout. We win the game.
Speaker 2:He gets home Game two Tied again Warren Brewster on the mound, was it Brewster?
Speaker 1:I was trying to remember Dave Parker at third.
Speaker 3:And he balks in the winning. No that's the worst. Now we've won a doubleheader.
Speaker 1:We've got to win four in a row.
Speaker 2:Are we at home? Yes, oh, it's wild. The place is going crazy. It's the first play-doh moment.
Speaker 1:You have to win four in a row just to force a tie.
Speaker 3:I think the Pirates had to play one more game on Monday and then we had to play on Monday against the Reds because we had an extra game we had to play. So now we do this on. You're going oh Unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Momentum baby, something's happening right, it carries on.
Speaker 3:We start Saturday, we come in Saturday. Now we have a single game Saturday. Single game Sunday. We get them out in the top of the first Bottom of the first. Stargell hits a grand slam with nobody out. We got four runs on the board. They haven't gotten out. We're going.
Speaker 1:Something special is going on.
Speaker 3:And then, unfortunately, randy Lurch, their pitcher, hit two home runs off us. We ended up losing that game on Saturday. We beat them again on Sunday, so we didn't have to go to Cincinnati and play on Monday. But yeah, that whole stretch of all of that Unforgettable. It's as exciting as baseball could be when you didn't end up winning it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you're chasing something. That's crazy, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:And you're doing it as a group. It was a different person every night. Yeah, willie hit a lot of home runs and did a lot of things, or Dave did a lot of things, but it wasn't. Everybody was kicking in and contributing and doing whatever they were doing. That was a fun fun thing, unreal. And then that sets up 1979.
Speaker 1:Did you think, going into 79, that it was because of what happened in 78, that, okay, we got the team that can overtake the Phillies in 79?
Speaker 3:Well, I think what we felt was we knew we were good enough At 78, like most years, we had gone off to a slow start. I've got a theory on that. I'd love to hear it, because we always got off to slow starts. We had a big team, big players. I mean Candelaria's 6'7", bibby's 6'6", parker's 6'5", and these are big human beings, all right, where most teams their starting lineup is 6'2", 185, 190 pounds. Well, in cold weather, big bodies don't loosen up and don't stay loose in cold weather. So the Rabbits were running all around and they were doing all that stuff and we weren't the power guys, weren't doing it. But once it warms up and the big bodies start getting loose, you guys were a diesel team. Yeah, the big bodies just keep on going. It doesn't matter when you get to August and it gets hot, these big guys can just plow through it, these rabbits they're hitting the wall.
Speaker 3:They're hitting the wall. So we always got off to a slow start. So going into 79, the thought was let's just don't get behind the Phillies so far. We have to chase them down from so far and we'll be fine. Now it ended up in 79. We had to beat the Expos because the Phillies had some injuries. But the Phillies were our main concern in 79. So the whole focus from 78 carried into 79 was let's don't get behind them like we did. I mean we talked about it all spring, get off, get off, get off good start, get off, good start. Of course we still had the big bodies, we still didn't play well in the cold weather and we still got behind in 79 also. But came charging, but the plan was in place. We didn't have the horses to execute the right. You know there was a plan.
Speaker 2:The thoroughbreds weren't ready.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a plan that was made for somebody else, not for us.
Speaker 1:Although I want to get your opinion on what I thought, looking at it from a fan's perspective, that the two moves that were ingenious, that I thought kind of put them over the top, needing a sure-handed shortstop. They went and got Tim Foley early from the Mets. Frank Tavares was a good offensive shortstop but was erratic, right, Right. And then trading for Bill Madlock was kind of the finishing touch.
Speaker 3:And then trading for Bill Madlock was kind of the finishing touch. Yeah, those two guys.
Speaker 2:First of all, the Foley trade. Frankie was a good shortstop. Did this happen before season?
Speaker 3:All this takes place in season. We leave spring training with Frank Tavares as our shortstop, phil Garner is playing third base, okay Okay. But Frankie was a really rangy, good shortstop, good arm, makes spectacular plays, but had a tendency to just relax on the routine plays and did not make the routine. He would make errors on the routine plays and then make a spectacular play. We needed somebody that made the routine play all the time and when they made the trade with the Mets, sent Tavares to the Mets and we got Foley. Foley's a veteran guy. He's definitely not nearly as flashy as Tavares. He doesn't make the outstanding plays that Tavares makes, but he catches everything. He's solid with everything that he does. He doesn't make the outstanding plays that Tavares makes, but he catches everything. He's solid with everything that he does. He doesn't hit as well as Tavares, but you know, frankie was an okay hitter. He wasn't a great hitter but he was an okay hitter and Timmy was probably about the same, but Timmy fit into our lineup better than Frankie did.
Speaker 3:Frankie was kind of a leadoff type guy and by that time we had Omar Marino playing center field who could steal. I think he stole 70-some bases that year and Timmy was the perfect guy to hit second behind him, because Timmy would just take pitch after pitch after pitch. He'd be in the hole 0-2, 1-2 all the time and not care taking pitches, giving Omar a chance to get a good jump and steal a base. Plus. He also and this is one of the things nobody talked about this enough but he was also a good bunter. If somebody else was as a pitcher, got on and Omar did something or whatever and he had to bun him over, he was a good bunter. And he also was good at using the bunt using a fake bunt to protect Omar.
Speaker 2:It's miserable as a catcher.
Speaker 3:Wait until you hear how miserable he was.
Speaker 2:Because it's right in your eye, if you follow it back, you can't see, like, if you're on playing with the ball with that barrel and you go all the way back. You can't see If you're on plane with the ball with that barrel and you go all the way back. You have to stay back, you have to wait and wait, and wait and it's like, oh no, you just described him fully.
Speaker 3:He would square around. He has no intention of bunting. He's waiting for Omar to get a jump. He puts the bat out in front of him, flat across, no angles, straight across, and when the ball comes he pulls the bat back, not where the ball is at. The ball might be down here where the eye level of the catcher is going to be. He knows where the eye level of the catcher is going to be, so that the bat is coming back at the catcher and his eyes. Okay, we're using our eyeballs.
Speaker 3:The catcher is going to be so that the bat is coming back? How great is that At the catcher?
Speaker 2:and his eyes. Okay, we're using our eyeballs, we're looking here, so the barrel's here. Ball may be here, I'm going here, but I'm coming back. All I see is a bat. Wow. So you pull back, naturally, right.
Speaker 3:Well, you pull back and you can't be aggressive and go forward and attack the ball to get into your throwing motion. It's almost like you're throwing it Because he's holding you back with the bat man.
Speaker 2:And you have to worry about catching it first. That's our number one job.
Speaker 3:And you've got Omar Marino running yeah.
Speaker 1:That's a bad combination for a catcher.
Speaker 2:Especially on a fastball. If it's a fastball count, he's probably not going to run Right it. It's the best time to do it because he's like, oh, I'm going to see it. It goes all the way back. But then they start rolling into you. It changes everything. It's such an incredible thing If you have a guy that's that comfortable man, you could just run and run and run that took him in the number two hole from being.
Speaker 3:you know he'd hit 260 or whatever he'd hit. It made him his value the same as a 320 hitter because he did so much more to allow Omar to do what he did.
Speaker 2:He's getting free 90s for him. He made Omar better.
Speaker 3:He made him better and he made us better because as soon as he gets done, you've got Parker Stargell, bill Robinson Medlock coming up.
Speaker 2:I mean, think about that. Good luck with that. You've got a guy that can run, so he doesn't waste himself by either bunting or whatever. Now he's on second base Right Two strike nubber.
Speaker 3:Nubber to second base.
Speaker 2:He runs to third base and it's like, oh no.
Speaker 3:Look at these giants coming up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're worried and there's one out.
Speaker 3:That's incredible. So that combination was yeah. So that that trade, yeah, changed us there defensively and offensively, we get oh gosh, I can't remember who was just before, after the, after the um all-star break I think it was just after the all-star break we make a trade with san francisco to get bill madlock.
Speaker 3:Our initial setup was Garner was playing third, rennie Stennett was playing second. That was our original setup. And number six yeah, number six. Well, rennie had broken his ankle a few years before and he didn't have the range at second base. He was still a pretty good hitter, but he didn't have the range at second base that he had before. He was a good fielder too. So what happened? When Medlock comes in, that allows us to take Garner, who is a much better second baseman than he is a third baseman, put him at second base, put Stennett's bat on the bench where his limited defensive range doesn't affect us, and puts, you know, madlock at third base, who's got a batting title, is going to have may have had two at the time and was going to win another one with us and changes that dynamic of the arm. I remember hearing I was not in the meeting, but the uh, the first meeting when bill came over, bill had a reputation of being a little little test, he uh he had been with the cubs.
Speaker 3:He had been with the giants on both teams. You know he batted third. He was supposed to be the guy and I'm not sure he was real comfortable with his personality didn't match up with being the guy. So he comes over to us and his first meeting with Tanner they're sitting there talking. He says, bill, here's what I want you to do. I want you number one because he was the most important player on both of those teams. They never let him run. He could run pretty good, but they never let him run. He was the most important player on both those teams. They never let him run. He could run pretty good, but they never let him run. So because, bill, I want you to steal whenever you want to. You've got the green light. Run whenever you want to, and of course, matlock's eyes light up, because nobody's ever let him run before and he's always wanted to run.
Speaker 3:He says play third base every day and you're going to bat sixth. And all of a sudden, the excitement about.
Speaker 1:Shoulders shrug Whoa, whoa, whoa. The excitement of being able to run kind of went downhill but I'm a third hitter.
Speaker 3:He says well, we have Foley batting second, Dave's batting third, You're probably not going to hit in front of him. Willie's hitting fourth. 're probably not going to hit in front of him. Willie's hitting fourth, You're not going to hit in front of him. We got this platoon hitting fifth. So we're always going to have the advantage, with Bill Robinson and John Milner, of a right-hander or left-hander hitting fifth. So you're going to hit sixth. And you know, he kind of says I think it was a reverse. I think he told him he was going to hit sixth first and then told him.
Speaker 1:Oh and, by the way, you can run when you want. Yeah, yeah, but so.
Speaker 2:Better psychology there.
Speaker 3:But he buys into it. Okay, he's hitting. Here's a guy with two batting titles, hitting sixth in our lineup.
Speaker 2:He's just another third hitter. I mean, if you think about it, the way the lineup's played, but I mean yo.
Speaker 3:So now he fills in, Our offense gets so much deeper, Our offense gets so much better because Foley can move Omar around. Omar can run more because he's got more chances. He doesn't have to force a run, he can wait until he gets to the jump Everything you know. And Medlock hitting sixth. Otten and Kosha are platoon catchers, One left-handed, one right-handed. Because Medlock's running, they got a lot more fastballs. They both had their best offensive years that year because they were both dead fastball hitters. Neither one of them were very good breaking ball hitters, but because Medlock was always on base, because he's that good a hitter and he's going to run.
Speaker 3:They're getting more fastballs, but it's hot, it's Nekosha, he's a rookie. We'll throw them the fastballs and see about throwing Medlock out.
Speaker 2:So we got so much better offensively and defensively with that one move, you became a different type of threat. You weren't just big boppers oh yeah, right, you became a different threat.
Speaker 3:We became a defensive. We could beat you with defense. We could beat you with long balls. We could beat you with running. Our pitching staff was underrated, especially our starters. Everybody knew we had a decent bullpen, but our starters were underrated.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we put all the pieces together.
Speaker 3:All of a sudden everything was right there and Willie that year was the only one that really got hurt. He only played, I think think 110 games that year. He's 38 years old and he's got bad knees, but all these other guys could move around. We had this lineup that was killer that we sent out there every day. Basically, when we looked at it, as soon as the opposing starting pitcher went out of the game, the game was over. As soon as our hit starting pitcher went out of the game, game was over. As soon as our hitters got a look at their bullpen, which typically number one if we were winning, you weren't seeing their best guys. Number two even if you were seeing their best guys, our guys didn't care, they were still banging. So I mean we had all the elements, the whole thing, put together.
Speaker 1:Well, on another episode you'll be able to listen to Teague talk about the 79 World Series itself, of course, what it's like to be on the mound for Game 7. You can also hear about Teague's broadcasting career and some of his favorite managers and teammates on another episode of Hold my Cutter.
