Hold My Cutter
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Hold My Cutter
From Catcher to Coach: Don Kelly's Unique Path
What’s it like to be the Swiss Army knife of Major League Baseball? Don Kelly, the ever-adaptable bench coach for the Pittsburgh Pirates, shares his incredible journey from the field to the dugout, with stories that range from playing every position on the diamond to catching high-speed pitches as an emergency catcher for the Detroit Tigers. Don recounts his time under the legendary Jim Leland, offering humorous and insightful tales that showcase the grit and versatility needed to thrive in professional baseball.
Our conversation with Donnie shifts from the field to the bench, where he illuminates the evolving role of coaching in today's fast-paced game. With younger players reaching the majors at lightning speed, Don explains how balancing the physical and mental demands of the game has become more crucial than ever. He shares his personal insights into the unique challenges faced by super utility players, underscoring the critical balance between practice and performance across multiple roles, and reveals how effective practice routines can make or break a player’s career.
As we wrap up the episode, Don dives into the heart of what makes baseball so compelling: the human connections and shared experiences that define a team's identity. From the camaraderie of minor league life to the strategic blend of traditional scouting and modern analytics, Don provides an inside look at how these elements form the backbone of team success. Through stories of leadership and clubhouse culture, Don paints a vivid picture of how player-led environments and strong mentorships, like those he experienced under Jim Leland, are essential for fostering winning teams. Don's reflections on leadership and team dynamics offer a rich tapestry of insights, leaving us eagerly anticipating his next appearance on "Hold My Cutter."
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We welcome you to another episode of Hold my Cutter Coming your way here, burned by Rocky Patel A couple of blocks down from PNC Park. We're sure our guest hangs out all summer long. Of course the Ford and I do as well. Ford actually has his studios right across the way here, but just a great place to hang out. And this portion of Hold my Cutter brought to you by Eric Katz.
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Speaker 2:It's the torpedo. So, you have the nickname, but this is Joe Boo's favorite. He likes the light cigar. We're going to light him up over here. Oh wow, joe Boo's here, he's lit up, he's smoking.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That here. Oh wow, joe boo's here, he's lit up, he's nice. Yeah, that's really nice. He likes the light cigar, so he loves the white label very. See the white hair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean just fits. Uh, we talked to donnie a lot about how he got into baseball. Don kelly's number of years now going on six seasons as bench coach for the pirates. He's back home a yinzard, whether john wainer believes it or not.
Speaker 1:We believe he is and the moments that you you had in postseason play with the Tigers you were one of. Really, when you think about all the players that have played in Major League Baseball and you two have had that opportunity and such a minute number of the population to have actually played in the big leagues even smaller those who've played nine positions in the big leagues. And I wonder, don, was that something that, as years went on, that you talked to Jim Leland about? You'd love to eventually do that, and what's interesting about it is that pitching came first, I think, and about a month later you finally checked off that final box of catching. But first talk to us about whether you got that in Leland's head. I did not, you did not know.
Speaker 3:So to 2011,. We signed Victor Martinez and when, uh, when we signed, victor Leland called me and he asked me actually, he didn't even ask me if I ever caught or anything he told me to get some catcher's gear because I was going to be the emergency catcher going into 2011. So yeah, it was not a conversation and I didn't question anything. I got the catcher's gear Yep, and we went out there in spring training.
Speaker 1:And you started working on it and started catching bullpens and learning how to do it.
Speaker 3:Did anybody work with you?
Speaker 1:in particular Because you had really not done much of that at all Not at all. No, Never in a big league game? No, and I never caught anywhere.
Speaker 3:And so in spring training you'll like this. So they'd send me to the backfield in Detroit they called it K-line field. And in the backfield in detroit I'm on k, they called it k line field, and in the outfield past center field, whatever. So we're back there and they had the machine set up halfway just throwing as hard as it could full gear.
Speaker 2:You know, receiving was okay, like I felt good, did they tell you to wear a thumb guard by chance?
Speaker 3:I did wear a thumb guard yeah, yes, I had a thumb guard.
Speaker 3:I had the knee savers, so six four up on the knee savers, that was a big target back there. And uh, so we're back there. They put a coach in to swing and miss or like, hit some, right. So that that first time that you're going in there and you're catching air because you're expecting to catch it, yeah and they hit it and there's, there's nothing there that goes good. They're like, hey, why don't we work on blocking? All right, no problem, hindsight, we should have thrown it first.
Speaker 2:They get on the machine, they win the machine first, bro. That's evil. That's evil. Big guy blocking machine. Listen to this. That's evil.
Speaker 3:So they're out there, that's old I see them crank it down. You know the whole way. You saw that first skip, didn't you Bro? No, even better. So I should have let them throw one first. I didn't. I stayed back there. I'm like I'm in form, you know, go down to block it, Dude. They never turn the speed down, so this thing comes out, Bullet.
Speaker 1:Brownie, it comes out A torpedo.
Speaker 3:It hits that ground, ground it goes harder.
Speaker 1:The problem is if it would have hit the ground, it wouldn't harder, it never hit.
Speaker 3:No, no, this thing is hovering right here.
Speaker 1:I'm a torpedo I'm sitting there like a duck. Oh, this ball comes in and bam crushes me in the forearm straight right, I was straight, I was ready to block it.
Speaker 3:It never hit the ground.
Speaker 1:I blocked the fastball off my forearm dude I walked off.
Speaker 3:I threw I went to throw the ball to center field, I'm like no, that's way too far, and I fired it as far as I could out to left field and just walked off I'm like, that's it, I'm done.
Speaker 1:Oh, I had a huge, I had a huge. Well, did you go back in spring, or that was it?
Speaker 2:oh, I went back, you did after the bruise, yeah, yeah well, that's how they used to do blocking. I don't know. I'll never forget my first big league camp. Jamie quirk was our catching guy um, I believe he's a bitch coach and javi lopez about the same size six, four yoked out of his mind.
Speaker 2:He was a legend to me as growing up. And we're blocking. I'm a little dude, they throw in the breaking ball and this thing is going probably 87 off the dirt. When it's a dirt it's about 107. I have bruises all in my chest from blocking it. But me, being a little guy, I'm, I'm like yeah, yeah, but my chest hurt. Javi, big old forearms was just loaded with marks. Yeah, he's like I'm, I. I'm never touching that thing again, ever, because it is miserable, because you have a cut in the ball. It goes this way.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, and me being a little guy and you know that's what I was brought up on in my college days is like we had the worst balls. We had the machine that would maybe spit at you straight. So I was used to it and I loved it. But yeah, it is a miserable way to try to learn how to block.
Speaker 1:So I don't know how many guys in the big leagues we'll have to go back and look at this We'll get our. Leonard Lee is our director, producer and our statistician. He goes back and he looks at all this stuff. It's all the work. He never stops, he never stops.
Speaker 3:He doesn't stop today.
Speaker 1:No, he doesn't stop Non-stop, but he'll tell us how many, if any. Over the years I Played nine positions, but you have to figure the vast majority. The last position they played was pitcher. Pitcher, yeah, but with Donnie it was June 29, 2011. The Mets taking on the Tigers in Detroit. Mets win the game 16-9. You come on with two outs in the ninth inning and you pitched to Scott Harrison. How did you find out that you were going to be pitching?
Speaker 3:I warmed up the entire eighth inning and I was down there, Leland or Lamont, who told you? Well, so in the eighth inning, Leland told me Leland had Tom Brookens. Tell me to go down and get loose.
Speaker 1:So I'm down in the cage.
Speaker 3:I'm getting loose to come in, which I would have had to fill the end of the eighth and the ninth. But we got out of the eighth, so get out of the eighth. We hit in the bottom of the eighth and I came up and I was just up in the dugout for the bottom of the eighth. I stayed there and I'm standing there watching the top of the ninth and Leland comes down. He posts up right next to me, he goes. What are you doing?
Speaker 1:Just how are you doing. What are you doing, just how are?
Speaker 3:you doing? What are you doing? I was like watching the game and he goes don't you think you should go get loose? And I was like, well, I said I threw a lot last inning and I was going to wait and see if somebody got on base and then go down and get loose. He goes. Have you been watching this effing game? And I was like, yeah, I said I said I have, he goes, somebody's gonna get on base.
Speaker 3:You better go get loose, so there you go I ran down into the, into the tunnel, and lamont hollered down. He said, hey, he goes. Uh, last last hitter, if this guy gets on, you're in. And sure enough, he hit a double to right center and I came up, I so I'm coming from the dugout. Leland looks at me and goes, hey, give me some time and don't give the guy a high five coming off the mound.
Speaker 1:What great advice. It's so great, so good, so good. But I saw a video you threw like 88-89 to Harrison 86.
Speaker 2:Okay, it looked like an 88 to2. I think the gun was fired it was a light gun, brownie.
Speaker 3:Still, I mean 86 is a position player. Did you see how I got him out? No, I didn't.
Speaker 2:You got your first hitter out. I did it was a breaking ball.
Speaker 3:It was a breaking ball.
Speaker 2:Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1:Hey.
Speaker 3:Victor Martinez fires down the two and he's like, oh yeah, but there's High five afterward. Well, thank goodness the breaking ball didn't break. It was a backup, it was a backup. Because if it would have broke and actually broke, you would have crushed it. But it kind of backed up and got off the barrel a little bit.
Speaker 1:But I saw the fly ball, then you sprinted off the mound. Once you got the dugout, it was okay. So that's June 29, 2011. And then, a handful of days later, July 2nd of that year, against the Giants at Comerica in Detroit, the Tigers lose this game 15-3. Fourth inning, Victor Martinez gets hurt A shoulder injury. I guess you come on to catch. I came on to catch.
Speaker 3:In the fourth I had to cover six innings. First time, first time, stop, yeah. So what happened is we had an hour and a half rain delay at the start of the game. We played two innings, had another hour and a half rain delay and in the top of the third inning, victor Martinez took a foul ball. That pad on the shoulder.
Speaker 3:It got underneath it or around it and drilled him in the shoulder. We were down 10 zip and so three hours worth of rain delays. It was already 10, 30, 11 o'clock at night. Yeah, he didn't want to put a vela in because we had a day game the next day so he's like all right, get your gear, you're going in. What are you doing? Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:you should be getting ready to catch, so so you go in there. What's more nerve-wracking? Could you put on your gear? Or? Or catching for the first time, oh, catching way more. Yeah, you're. I think the pitcher is ryan perry ryan perry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you end up catching three guys harry lester, oliveris jeez and david percy wow, there's no one knee down approach.
Speaker 2:oh no, no, not at no, not at all. He's up.
Speaker 3:Well, you know what's funny? I don't know. I've never gone back and really watched it in depth. I'm going to go watch it, but go watch it and watch my left knee, because the next morning I woke up and when I got out of bed to go to the bathroom I could not move my left knee and I think I was going one knee before there was one knee.
Speaker 1:I think he didn't want anything to do with you. I love it. There we go. He started it. Larry Vanover is the home plate umpire. Does he say anything to?
Speaker 3:you. I think he was more scared than I was. I'm not kidding, I bet I bet yeah, First time a guy gets on second base, obviously no pitch.
Speaker 1:No pitch, calm yet yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, so we're putting down the signs. Ryan Perry's on the mound there was 97 filthy stuff. You're a nervous wreck right now. Nervous wreck Guy's on second base. I fire it down. We're going. Second sign I get through it. I set up. I'm like, oh crap, what did I put down?
Speaker 1:I couldn't remember what the second sign was.
Speaker 3:So I'm like hey ended up outside the dirt, he called time and ran. It wasn't just like normal no. I'm not here.
Speaker 1:I'm not here. So the experience what was it like then? When all was said and done, it was the most fun that I've had. How do you think you did?
Speaker 3:I mean, I did not do well.
Speaker 2:Did the game end and you were alive.
Speaker 3:The game ended, I was alive, I was walking the next day, I only gave up five runs. I told Victor. I said you gave up 10 and three. I only gave up five, I only gave up grinds.
Speaker 3:We lost 15 to three but like it was the most fun I had because you're as a catcher In it, you're watching swings, you're trying to do it, you're trying to, and I told the pitcher I'm like, listen, I don't know to pitch, throw what you want to throw, because I don't know they only shook like four or five times. That's awesome the whole time and like in it I caught a pop-up yeah, yeah, was that nerve-wracking?
Speaker 2:oh, it's different.
Speaker 1:It comes back and you're like wait a minute, wait a minute, yeah, yeah, it was crazy how much appreciation, just for that short amount of time, do you get for that position then, just having played it in the big leagues? A ton really, yes, even though you only I don't know how they do it.
Speaker 3:Alex avila that year and I would have to go back and look, maybe leonard could tell us played 130 some 140 games he played almost every day and justin verlander was phenomenal. I mean, there he had a season for the ages. You know MVP yeah he did.
Speaker 2:That's right JA to center field.
Speaker 3:That's right, but Alex Avila played every day. Verlander was MVP, cy Young, everything, and it was arguably a toss-up in the clubhouse on who the MVP of the team was, because Alex played every single day, hit 19 home runs, hit two 80s, like just the way that he did it. Yes, verlander was invaluable and great, but Alex was as much of a.
Speaker 2:With no emotion the whole time.
Speaker 3:No, emotion Zero Dude. What a guy yeah.
Speaker 2:Played with the Dominican.
Speaker 1:One of those guys started that game Verlander Scherzer, I think. By the way, which when you went and caught, when you went and got caught.
Speaker 3:Oh really, I don't even remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you ended up catching Ryan.
Speaker 2:Perry. What a duo in Detroit, right.
Speaker 1:So you're talking about the appreciation you had then for that position, and that's the case too with you, donnie, because you played all nine positions. But you really were a super utility guy. You played all the infield positions and now now you become a coach in the major leagues. So that is invaluable that you truly can teach all these different positions to these players.
Speaker 3:You're like a Swiss army knife for the as a coach you know, and I think that the the biggest thing and for you would know, like the mindset of the work and how you go about, how you prepare every day, how you compete, how you show up and we've we talked about Triolo and the other podcasts like just the way these guys prepare, the way they work, the way they compete. Yeah, we can talk about technicalities, we can talk about getting better and still developing at the big league level, but how you go about it, how you compete, how you prepare, is so important. And trying to really dive in on that with these guys, because the intricate details of how you're going to do it, everybody's going to do it different. Everybody's going to catch different. Everybody's going to, you know, have a different way to go about playing third base.
Speaker 3:You know, triolo and Cabrion Hayes I mean there's not a better tandem in the big leagues than I mean Cabrian Hayes is probably the best defensive third baseman. Jared Triolo is, you know, right there with him and to have those two guys, but they don't play it the exact same way. You know, and understanding how these guys move, how they think, how they go about it and trying to help them any way you can and every position. I don't know how qualified I am to teach catchers. I will not be trying to do that.
Speaker 1:Well, but we talked earlier about Triolo getting this gold glove and how good that feels, and you've talked about it graciously that he certainly deserves it, the work he put in. But coaching is so much a part of it People don't believe it anymore, but maybe more so than ever. There's more coaching in the big leagues than there was 40 years ago. It seems that there's players are being coached up at the big league level like never before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know what? I think the guys are getting to the big leagues a lot faster, a lot younger in that development curve. There's still a lot of development interesting. Would be interested to hear your take forward on it of, like you know, when you get to the big leagues from a physical development standpoint you still have that. But when you get to the big leagues and you add the lights and you add the media and you add the fans and you add mlb network and espn and highlights and low lights and you add MLB Network and ESPN and highlights and lowlights and the bloopers and everything that comes around with being in the big leagues, there's a lot more to deal with in the big leagues than just physical development.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you also think about the off-the-field things that are kind of required of you, your family and friends that are coming out of the woodworks. That kind of came out of nowhere. So there's a lot to be said about that. Go back to what you were saying about playing all these positions and the mindset. How did you pick and choose on what to work on? Because I mean, there's times, yes, you're probably falling into where for a month, you're playing second base most often, but then all of a sudden you're playing third. You're playing right, you may jump out in center. What? All of a sudden you're playing third. You're playing right, you may jump out in center. What's the balance? Yeah, right, how do you, how do you keep that up? Because a ball in center field is completely different. I played left and right some. It's completely different and if you don't see one for three, four or five weeks, yeah, it's a joke.
Speaker 3:well, you know what for me it was is. Bp was not just a time to go through the motions and feel good. That was my work. Earlier, I referenced taking ground balls at third. I had to take ground balls at third base every single day to feel prepared in the infield, and then I would just rotate left, center, right, left, center, right, just go and sometimes I would get a feel for maybe where I would play. So I would go there, but a lot of times just trying to figure out where do I need to go to feel comfortable, to feel no script of where you were going to play.
Speaker 2:What were your go-tos on that given day? Third, your identity. And then what about the outfield?
Speaker 3:Left and right Center Always felt comfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was more true. Yeah, it's more true.
Speaker 1:Perfect when it comes to your coaching philosophy. We talked about your minor league playing days and some of the managers that you played with. Jim Leland stands out, of course. He's the longest in terms of who managed you, but I assume, donnie, that you take from all kinds of coaches and managers over your career, correct, no doubt?
Speaker 3:You learned from a bunch of them.
Speaker 1:And some of the guys that manage you at the minor league level. I'm looking like this all-star for veteran baseball fans. You'll know the names Phil Nevin, larry Parrish, bill Plummer, trent Jewett of course, with the Pirates Duffy Dyer, former Pirates catcher Rick Sweet, phil Riggin. Gary Green coached you in the minors with the Tigers. He's now, of course, a Pittsburgher.
Speaker 3:Greeny's the best. So Greeny, poor Greeny. My oldest brother-in-law, was drafted by the Tigers in 2000. He had Gary Green. Gary Green managed him in 2000. Then I was drafted in 01. He managed me in 01. 02, he got moved up to Lakeland and had Matt again in 02. Then I made it to Lakeland. He had me in 03.
Speaker 2:And then he had Neil in 05., he came over with the Pirates, so, gary.
Speaker 3:Green has managed me and Neil and my oldest brother-in-law, Matt you wonder why he's got gray white hair.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. We jacked him up by the way, speaking of that, it was a winning streak that cost you your hair, right, it was Five-game winning streak. What was that? What?
Speaker 3:went into that. I bet the staff that if we won five games in a row and it was in 2022, that I would shave my head and the middle part was going anyway. So we didn't win five in a row in 22. So going into 23, it turned into more of a lot of people signed up for stuff, but we won five games in a row in April of 23, and I haven't gone back.
Speaker 1:It looks good it does look good yeah, what makes Jim Leland a Hall of Fame manager? Jim.
Speaker 3:Leland cares. He cares about people, he cares about his players and it was evident in the way that he showed that. You know, and I'm sure you guys have seen it, caring is getting on you sometimes, you know, and when that it's, you know, everybody in Pittsburgh has seen the one with him and Barry Bonds and he got on Barry. But it wasn't because he didn't like Barry, he got on him because he cared about him and but there were times that he would just cry. I'll never forget 2011. We got beat by the Texas Rangers and he came in and just tears flowing about how proud he was of was of us, how much we gave him. We gave him everything we had. I'm so proud of you guys, you know, just proud of you guys. You know, just crying his eyes out, like, but that was the way that he showed it the way he communicated, the way he cared.
Speaker 1:He was so sincere and vulnerable. I think that's so huge that players appreciate that vulnerability that Leland doesn't suggest he's an expert, knows everything. He's vulnerable and and he opens up and and uh, the wall breaks down. I think people appreciate that too.
Speaker 3:They did, players, did you know?
Speaker 2:and to be able to see that you can identify with that it is and we're human.
Speaker 3:You know Whether you're a player, coach, you know broadcaster, we're human. And yes, like we talked earlier about, you know the fans and the disappointment of this year and not winning. We feel it too and to be able to express that and let the fans know that and it's part of yes, we're disappointed every single night that we don't win a game. And how are we going to work and continue to get better to eventually win?
Speaker 1:here in Pittsburgh, donnie, the story goes that it was Jim Leland who actually talked to Shelton about bringing you onto this staff. Is that true?
Speaker 2:How did you end up? Oh, you don't know that, I don't know. Oh, wow, wow, he just shows up and works. Yeah, that's right, I don't know.
Speaker 1:And you show up and work the season compared to off-season and pre-season or spring training, those kind of almost three phases of a baseball life. What's that like for you? What's the daily grind in the season? What's the off season like in terms of being able to kind of exhale, spend time with the family, and then the grind of getting it back into it and setting that schedule for spring training and all the work that goes into it yeah the uh.
Speaker 3:So we start in spring. As a bench coach, spring training is toughest time of the year for me. It's because you're a field coordinator.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do, everything, you do everything.
Speaker 3:It's wild. You're there at the latest I'm there is probably 4.30.
Speaker 1:You're at the ballpark at 4.30 am 4.30 am.
Speaker 3:That's the only time that I can get by myself to compose my thoughts and get everything up on the white board for what we're trying to do. You know the schedule's already set for that day you're planning.
Speaker 2:You're always at least two days ahead and then there's an atomic nuke that drops on him at about, you know, eight o'clock. Hey, so, and so can't throw. Today.
Speaker 1:This is happening here, and it's like no game no, he just is happening here and it's like, ah, no game, no BT, he just does it in stride. He's like yeah, yeah, get some guns.
Speaker 3:Yeah spring training is crazy. I mean I'm there 4 to 4.30 and probably leaving at 6.30, 7 o'clock. It's sleep, go to the ballpark, sleep like there's no, no time, and I love it's. It's great getting ready for the season, getting the guys prepared, um, trying to make sure that you're touching all the bases, so to speak, of making sure that guys are ready for the season. Get into the season. From spring training things slow down a little bit, but it's still still every single day. You know like you guys know how it is like. There's no very little breaks.
Speaker 1:Even an off day is very little where you're traveling or you know what's the relationship like with Derek Shelton Great.
Speaker 3:Great yeah, we have a good relationship. Communicate.
Speaker 1:Feedback, good feedback, back and forth, and so on.
Speaker 2:I see him at a clubhouse often. I don't go in Shelton's office, I don't bother him often, but they're always chit-chat always kind of planning and maybe three, four days ahead. You see it all the time it's kind of remarkable.
Speaker 1:What's it like realizing that your playing days are over Because you spent, I think, the last two years, if I'm not mistaken, with the Marlins. Yeah, did you get hurt after only a couple games?
Speaker 3:2015,. I got hurt and then I ended up having Tommy John. Oh wow. And so that was the beginning of the end. Came back in 2016, got back up to the big leagues for a little bit, but most of the time in AAA it was good. I knew I was done. You did yeah.
Speaker 1:I knew, is that frightening.
Speaker 2:I was not scared at all how did you know you were done? We've asked this question a couple times.
Speaker 3:To people yes, I didn't have it. What's it?
Speaker 2:to you.
Speaker 1:I don't know, you just knew it. But you knew it, you didn't wake up and want to go to the ballpark.
Speaker 3:That drive of. Like you know, for me to compete at the big league level, I had to run through a wall. I had to do everything as well as I could because I wasn't the most talented guy. I could just tell that it was trending down. The bat started to feel like a telephone pole. You know you're getting older, the mindset shifted. I knew and you know what was cool about it. I didn't have any regrets.
Speaker 2:There were no what-ifs, no regrets. That's a great point.
Speaker 3:There were no what-ifs of what if.
Speaker 1:I no regrets, no regrets, no regrets. Well, you know your last game, the final game in the big leagues, july 27, 2016,. You go three for five, drive in two and an 11-1 win over the Phillies. Two triples Jeez, I mean, that's a heck of a way to go.
Speaker 2:Stop it Two triples. Jeez, I mean, that's a heck of a way to go out. Stop it Two triples. Who's running?
Speaker 3:I was yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought you were getting old.
Speaker 3:Well, you know what? They probably knew that I was going down. They were probably scared to death as I was running. I was going to pull a hammy or something going around. Like you said, you leave it all out there. Leave it all out there and to have that game, and you know what is really crazy about that. The last thing that Jose Fernandez said to me and Jose Fernandez passed away unfortunately in the boating accident.
Speaker 3:But the last thing he said to me when he was leaving the clubhouse that day is I'm sorry, bro, it shouldn't be you About getting sent down. That means a lot coming from guys like him From him, but then, when everything happened, the only thing that I can think of is it shouldn't be you Like. Why did he?
Speaker 2:die.
Speaker 3:You know like you talk about a guy that was at the top of baseball, that was going to be the face of baseball.
Speaker 1:You ever see anybody that electric oh no, and that charismatic? Just personality, charismatic face of baseball you ever see anybody that electric, oh no, and that character, personality charismatic charisma.
Speaker 2:I mean you could put the mlb face. Yes with him.
Speaker 3:He was gonna heartbeat yeah you know and and just so tragic of of what happened, because talent and you know just the way that he carried himself as a, as an opponent. I'm sure he could tick you off because of the way that he was, but as a teammate all he wanted to do was win.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know He'll go to the bunker with anybody like that.
Speaker 1:It's so wild to have pitchers over the years that you can actually talk to as a broadcaster reporter, whoever it might be on the day they start. And he didn't care. He was like Jose Lima Didn't care, he sought out people. He didn't care, he was like Jose Lima Didn't care, he sought out people. Let's go, let's talk. You know the old. It's pretty standard that you don't talk to the starting pitcher that day. You're not supposed to anyway, but they actually would.
Speaker 2:Well, it's somewhere to put your energy, Like for guys like him?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. He's so geeked out, right? Yeah, needed that. Yeah, you go back to the minors and finish up in the marlin system, right yep? And then, at the end of that season, now your baseball career is over, how did you get into scouting, was it right? The very next year?
Speaker 3:it was the next year. Yeah and uh, I had no idea what I wanted to do. No idea whatsoever and you know when you get to the end. I had no regrets about playing. I knew that I wanted to do something in baseball, but I had no idea what, and I called a few people Al Avila was one who was with Detroit.
Speaker 1:A general manager. In Detroit and he asked me, he's like well, what do you want to do?
Speaker 3:I said Al, I have no idea how about that. And I said, well, I was like, hey, what about one of those special assistant jobs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, give me one of those.
Speaker 3:In Detroit. Those special assistants are Jim Leland, alan Trammell, kirk Gibson. You know like iconic baseball guys.
Speaker 3:I said I'm not looking for a title, like I just want to learn. I want to learn the other side of the game what it is. So he had Scott Bream is the pro scouting director over there and Dave Littlefield, former GM of the Pirates, was running the minor leagues. So, man, it was awesome. They put together a job that was half pro scouting, half player development, that I could go on to both sides and learn that side of the game. And a funny story when Dave Littlefield called to talk to me about the position and everything and I was like Dave, are you sure you want to do this? And he's like yeah, it's going to be awesome. Why?
Speaker 1:I said well, I already got you fired once. Don't want to do it again.
Speaker 2:That's great, oh, that's good.
Speaker 1:Dave's doing some scouting for Korean baseball Now by the way, dave Littlefield, good, good guy.
Speaker 3:How many years in scouting, then, and player development. So I did one year of that role and then the following year I was a major league scout for Detroit that I had five organizations and that's where Pittsburgh was one of them that I got to see some of the guys that I ended up coaching later. I got to scout before I coached.
Speaker 1:Now you're scouting Donnie and are you thinking to yourself this just isn't for me, two years of it. I've got to get back in uniform on that field.
Speaker 2:What was that process like? First, scouting-wise, you were kind of in that era of transition.
Speaker 1:Analytics is really picking up Good question.
Speaker 2:How is that balanced? Because you're learning it all on the field, off the field, then you go into straight major league scouting. What was that day like? Great question and the reports too, so the reports suck.
Speaker 3:When you're sitting there you're trying to write the reports, you talk to any scout.
Speaker 1:They'll say this has been going on forever. They can't stand them.
Speaker 2:The reports are awful Because that was a job that I almost the twins called and I don't know why the twins. It was really strange and I, Okay, well then, I got some paperwork.
Speaker 3:I'm like, oh, Not for me, oh it's tough man when you're sitting there in front of the computer and, like I know, when you see a player you know what you think. But then to actually put it down in report format and outline everything and try to be consistent and all this stuff.
Speaker 2:They would have thought I was drinking. Oh man, it was crazy.
Speaker 3:I can't imagine drinking too much coffee. Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? But you know what? I'm really thankful for it because it gave me a different perspective on the game in trying to truly evaluate talent from a zero bar of like okay, who's good and who's not. And I think that you mentioned the analytics.
Speaker 3:I really believe that in baseball we need scouts and we need analytics, because it's a blend. It's the best way to try to figure out. We're never going to know for sure who that player is, but if we rely just on one or the other, we could miss something. So if we have both and we can get a scout that can get information to try to figure out who this player is, we're going to see the numbers on what the analytics are. And analytics, I think, for me as a player, when they first came in, I don't know how you felt for it, but I don't know if intimidated was the right word, but I didn't trust them. Like, what are they trying to do? They're trying to make me look like I'm bad, but as I've gotten into coaching, the numbers are there to try to figure out who's good and who's not, from a historical perspective of being a true zero.
Speaker 2:You know like I think the pa did a bad job with it at first like an association. Yeah, I hate to throw one of the bus, but they, they kind of made us push back a little bit like don't throw in with the rap sodo, don't like, and I think it was because they thought they were going to use it against us, you know arbitration, everything else sure, but at the same time, if you've read the art of war, we should understand that to the extent we can use it against them.
Speaker 2:And I don't think that started happening until 1819, a little bit further on.
Speaker 3:But yeah, to your point it should be a benefit for everybody if you use it properly yeah, you know and like to, so to be able to scout and get a seat higher up, watch guys compete, how they play off, off the field, looking down at it.
Speaker 1:right, they say that the game gets easier the farther away you get from the field. Is that true? It slows down, that's for sure.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll tell you what. So I wrote at my office, at home. I wrote don't ever forget dot dot dot. Because to me, I never want to forget how hard it is to play at this level, to play baseball in the minor leagues, but then you get to the big leagues and you had everything in like, I don't want to forget how hard it is for what these guys are trying to do every single night playing this game. It's, it's the hardest thing in the world.
Speaker 2:I still try to hit some and do some stuff to make sure I remember, like you know, what I mean. Like if I'm gonna tell somebody something about their swing or anything else, I'm going to go try it and be like I don't even understand what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I can kind of get how they feel.
Speaker 1:Donnie, were you a good scout. Was I a good scout, were you a good scout yourself.
Speaker 3:As a scout You'd have to ask my boss on that.
Speaker 1:I'll call Littlefield and see what he says.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you could ask Dave.
Speaker 1:You really can't self-assess whether you were good, especially now. I would think that now, having done it for two years now down the road, some of the guys you scouted you're seeing you can remember. You know I was wrong on that guy, I did pretty good. Okay, that's good to know Interesting.
Speaker 2:You've got to remember with his career he was looking at outliers most guys wouldn't look at True. I talk to scouts all the time over at PNC they're always trying to just pick.
Speaker 1:I love them.
Speaker 2:And that's what most scouts do. This dude's sitting there analyzing the game, watching it differently. You can tell the guys that are different, and he would have been one of them. Oh, that was almost a don't.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I would say I did pretty good. I mean I missed on some guys, but I was pretty close on a lot of guys. I mean you're never going to be perfect, but for only doing it for a couple years I'd say I was pretty good. I mean I wouldn't say I was a great scout. You know you're talking about guys like John Mercurio, bruce Tanner, mike Russell was a big mentor for me, scott Bream was my boss. Like those guys have seen so much and done so much scouting. Like I was definitely not on their level but I feel like I did okay.
Speaker 1:Well, you again. A greater appreciation, however, for scouts now that you didn't have before, correct, no doubt. So now, when you hear from scouts within the organization, do you think you're listening closer to them than you would have had not had that experience, I would think so.
Speaker 3:You know we've got some great guys in our pro scouting department that have a lot of experience and you know they've done tremendous. I love talking to them at our meetings. They'd have a lot of experience. They've done tremendous. I love talking to them at our meetings. Do you know McNally at all, not well, not well, I know of him. Hottie Rod, andrew Lorraine, they were all in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just talking to them about it. It's fun because for many years in a former life I would really hang out in the press room with the scouts, would go out on occasion and watch players with scouts and watch that life the part-time scouts, by the way, not even the pro scouts, the bird dogs and so I just wonder the evolution of the game? Yes, those statistics, the analytics so important. We hear that all the time it's striking the balance. I wonder sometimes whether that balance is being struck. Sometimes I wonder if, slowly but surely, they're pushing those scouts off to the side. I don't know, I wonder, I worry. I hope that's not the case. I worry too Because I just think they're so valuable because and you know it, donnie there's so many things when you watch a baseball game that there is no way you can measure what we just saw.
Speaker 1:There's just no way. There's no way you know what. That runner at first base taking that bigger lead, who's a threat to steal, what he does to that mindset of that pitcher. There's just no way to know that. There's just no way to know that. There's no way to know does the catcher call something different because of that? That's just one minute, small area, but that happens all the time during the course of a baseball game. You're right, and you just wonder.
Speaker 2:And that wins you one-run games. Well, yeah, those little things win you one-run games 100% You're right.
Speaker 1:So you go from scouting for two years and now you wind up as a coach for the Houston Astros. How'd that happen?
Speaker 3:so when I was with the Diamondbacks in 08, aj Hinch was the director of player development and AJ and my boss with Detroit, scott Bream, are really good friends, so I don't know exactly what transpired there, but AJ called the one day and, uh, they called the Tigers and asked for permission to interview me. Aj called, I went down, interviewed for the job and ended up.
Speaker 2:Did you have your, did you have a feeler out there, like, did people know that you maybe wanted to get on the field? Scott?
Speaker 3:did. Scott knew that. Eventually I wanted to get back on the field because scouting is so tough. You know we're competitors. You know we came up playing the game. You get that win, loss. At the end of the day. As a scout, there's no win or loss. You know it's really hard. You're by yourself all the time. There's no camaraderie like what these guys do. They're on the road all the time filing it's them and their computer you know, and writing reports can be a lonely life I'm
Speaker 2:sure you know brought brought life back to me this year having a teammate, kind of a battery because I did miss that, because there's a lot of times where, like you know, these hosts have their own routine. Me and rob king, if he's there, like yeah, he's, he's in there as my teammate, but you know ali hayley played with different people like potash doesn't watch the game with me yeah, you know these people, so I'm in there by myself, I have a room with all the cameras and I'm just like you do miss that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you miss that.
Speaker 2:And there's times where you get a call and you're like, yeah, I'm thinking about it, but I was wondering if you were putting feelers out there or whatnot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I didn't. My boss at Detroit knew that. Eventually, I think I wanted to get back on the field, but it's not. Yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just happens. It just happens. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:First base coach for the Astros in 19, right Good team.
Speaker 3:Great team. Okay, team it was two years after the World Series so we went to the World Series in 19. 17 is when they won it. What's that mean? They won it, though we're not going to talk about that. I wasn't there, so I don't know much about cans.
Speaker 2:What do you know?
Speaker 3:about trash cans.
Speaker 1:As we're recording this podcast, the president is picking his cabinet, the president-elect, so we'd go in front of Congress.
Speaker 2:What did you know, Mr Kelly, about the trash can I will say this what did you know? I will say this there's no way if I'm hitting, I'm trusting a banging of a trash. Can I'm?
Speaker 3:with you, brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean nothing.
Speaker 1:I don't understand for the life of me. If everybody could hear it, why doesn't the pitcher decide that won't happen anymore? Like he tells the catcher, you tell the batter the next time.
Speaker 2:We would have thrown it at their head. It's right in your back. That's exactly what happened, bizarre to me.
Speaker 1:Everybody else knew it, but the pitcher had to know it and once period.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so 19 was a good year. There was none of that going on, I can tell you.
Speaker 1:Like I was not aware of it, yeah, um you know that of what happened in 17 and there was none of that going on in 19, and what a great team, but another, yeah, I mean, holy what a great team.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it was up there the teams that I was fortunate to be on in detroit were phenomenal, and the team in houston, when you're running verlander, cole and Cranky out there as a starting rotation with.
Speaker 2:Yikes Unbelievable With.
Speaker 3:Bregman Correa, altuve, gurriel Brantley, springer, josh Reddick, Alvarez Robinson, torino. I mean, it was unreal. Wow, you get that taste.
Speaker 1:Winning again this time as a coach, then you become a bench coach. And winning again this time as a coach, then you become a bench coach An opportunity to interview for a big league manager's job. Is that something Silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. Something you strive to do someday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would love to manage someday, very content and happy where I'm at, being here at home with Pittsburgh and continuing to get better. I think that someday down the road I would love to have that opportunity Do you think you'd be a good manager?
Speaker 3:I think that we all well like, yeah, I would love to do it. You know you learning a lot right now on thing, good things, bad things, things that I've screwed up in conversations and, you know, just trying to get better every single day and if that opportunity presents down the road, we'd love that challenge, love it.
Speaker 1:What do you think the? We had a debate a couple months ago. No, not me and you. Well, you and I and somebody else was. I don't know who it was. Might've been Jason Mackey, I forget who it was, probably not. On a Hold my Cutter podcast about identity. What's the personality of a team?
Speaker 2:And I'm big into it my argument is.
Speaker 1:it's absurd. You know what the personality of the team it's winning, I mean so that's an identity. I've heard, yeah, okay, that's fine If that's the identity. But you know, I've heard this debate. Donnie and Michael and I have talked about this over the years too. Oh, I've heard people say, oh, they've got a great clubhouse. You know what's a great clubhouse, a winning clubhouse. I don't want a great clubhouse when you're losing.
Speaker 2:I want people miserable. I wonder what your thoughts are about that. That's what standards in my mind. That's why we argue a little bit. The losing side, I get the miserable, but that's what the standard of the identity. If you have expectations here, you're not going to be happy letting them fall down.
Speaker 1:Let's just say a losing team, any team, any sport in baseball lose 100 games. Football. Don't sniff the playoffs, oh boy. But we had a great clubhouse, a great locker room.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's the worst time to say it.
Speaker 3:What did he do? What good is that? That's not good. I've often thought about this. As far as, like, what comes first, chemistry and culture, right or winning and I think they both can breed each other. I don't think that there there's one way or that. It's kind of like talking about scouting and analytics. Yeah, I think you need, you need both and you need things to to mesh and gel and guys to show up every day on, like.
Speaker 3:I look back at our time in detroit and we talked earlier in the other podcast about 2011 with the Pirates, 2012 with the Pirates. That led to 13, 14, 15. I look back at our time in Detroit when we signed Victor Martinez. There were some things that went on. Music was one of them that started. It was that time in Detroit when we started playing music in the clubhouse, and it was that that time in detroit when we started playing music in the clubhouse and it was a starting pitcher and all this stuff was when the players took control of the clubhouse say it again oh that's it it's when the players took control.
Speaker 3:Jim leland was a phenomenal manager. He's consistent, he cared about everybody. But at the end of the day, I really believe that on bad teams, nobody leads. On good teams, coaches lead On great teams.
Speaker 1:The players lead, that's well said.
Speaker 2:Because it goes back to leadership. The whole identity of leadership is being a servant leader and creating leaders around you. Yes, you know, hurdle tried something in 13. I don't think it really worked. Worked, but he had a wolf pack where the catchers had a wolf pack. Russell led that. Well, the county starting pitcher about the council.
Speaker 2:It was a count we called it the wolf pack. Well, when that stopped and the wolf pack came together in the clubhouse, we didn't we didn't lose much, you know, because they didn't need hurdle. And then, I think, hurdle realized that he stepped back. And that's what great leaders do to your point. I love that.
Speaker 3:And then let the players go. Ultimately, it's the player's team and, as a servant leader, we're there to try to shepherd that and help with that culture, help with accountability. But when you have a great team, the players are holding each other accountable. The players, they set the standard of what we're trying to do and how they go about it. And when you're a teammate, and you can, you know that, dude, I love you, I respect you, the way you play. When I can get on you in that way that you're not playing the game the right way, the way that we expect, yeah, sometimes it's got to come from the coaches, but when it's most impactful is when it comes from the players. And when, in detroit, when the players took control of the clubhouse and we started to police ourselves, is when everything really started to take off and let me add to that, so that go back to the identity thing.
Speaker 2:I know not a big fan of it, but it's the turnover that's the problem. You can't do that with a consistent turnover now having a staple in paul skeens and you have guys with no crews in center brian reynolds, you have keller, you have guys that are here now. They've created a standard because they continue to show up. You're in, you're out. In detroit, same thing 11, 12, 13. We had the staple of a team growing together in 11. The court kept coming back. You know, you had pedro, you had neil, you had kutch, obviously, but it kept coming back and that made something of it. Obviously, you throw in AJ, you throw in Lariano. They all had their things that they would take control of, but they understood what they took control of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't disagree with that. No, I don't. I think that now can winning help. Winning helps with that. I do think that yes.
Speaker 2:But can it not create a false identity? Winning yeah, because, like you said, you could be way up here and you are winning, but you really don't know how.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how are we winning? Why are we winning? Are we all showing up?
Speaker 2:I'm playing terrible, but we're winning and then it's like you start losing.
Speaker 3:Why are we losing? We are still playing terrible. They're just playing better. So I know for you've been in, you've sat in on some of the advanced meetings in in the, in the cage, and I sometimes I feel redundant when I talk about it and I try not to beat it to. You know, beat a dead horse, but challenging our guys to show up every day to help the team win. I would love for it to be in the batter's box. I would love for you to go four for four with three home runs, six RBIs and. But guess what? It's not going to happen. No, you know that's very rare.
Speaker 3:How can you show up every day to help us win? Maybe it's on the bases, maybe it's defense, maybe it's being a teammate and picking somebody else up, maybe it's being a guy on the bench that picks up a tip, and when that culture starts to resonate and that culture starts to that, I'm showing up. Yes, I want to. I want to show up and do well for myself, but I want to show up and see you guys do well and I want to win the game. How can I sell out to that and show up to win and do whatever is needed to be done to win that baseball game and at the end of the year, guess what everybody's going to have? They're going to have good numbers, right, and they're gonna keep the team together.
Speaker 3:And that's that's what I saw in detroit. And you know, to be able to guy, to be able to be a guy that stuck around for six years with the tigers that wasn't an all-star type player, but to be there as a teammate and perform when I needed to have some good moments, have some bad moments too, but be there ultimately. And that's what I think Jim Leland was really good at. You know, when you see a guy like rock, you see a guy like Kangel OC, you know I hope that I was in that same category of showing up every day to do something to win, regardless of what my numbers look like. That's when you can start to create a team and have that team identity of showing up to win. So I don't know if it's necessarily. Yes, there's culture that can lead to that. Winning can help breed that. I don't know which comes first, but I think at the end of the day, you need to have guys that show up for each other, with each other, to go out there and compete and that's hard to find.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Like you look at the Yankees to the Dodgers in the last World Series, you could tell which team was different. Like both have absurd talent, but you could tell one was waiting on the big explosion and one was winning with Kiki Hernandez was winning with Michael Taylor Just different, right. That's the whole identity. Great point the bullpen won the World Series. For the Dodgers they had 98 guys on the IL, right? This isn't the year they should have won. Otani didn't do anything. They didn't care.
Speaker 3:So to that point, everybody talks about the fifth inning of was it game six, I think, or game five, where they scored five runs in the fifth yeah, yeah, yeah they hadn't scored and Mookie Betts came off with bases loaded and one out. Yeah, how many times is a? Right-handed hitter call do you hit a ground? You?
Speaker 3:miss hit a ball to first base and everyone talks about you know Garrett not covering and Rizzo you know fielding it. Should he have gotten to first or not? But the thing that I saw in that is mookie bets from the time he hit the ball, busted his butt all the way through first base. That to me, that is identity.
Speaker 2:That is how he's creating a standard. That's, above all else, if your best player is doing it, what is our like? We talked about that. Brian rolls all year, all year. As good as he was, even in his worst moments, that man was getting it down the line Every single day.
Speaker 3:So you have no excuse, no excuse.
Speaker 2:Right, like when Kutch played for two weeks and went off and he's limping to first base. You have no excuse, no excuse, and that's what you start to see. That's the identity shift. It's like we are going to win at all costs. And if I feel like team today in any way, whether it's like stealing signs or anything else, I'm going to. I mean, I got called up with the Cardinals against the Pirates, stole their signs the first minute I got there. We won the game because I was able to steal some signs and that only happened because of Yadier Molina. He let me lead the pitchers, meeting my first moment with the most, in my mind, most iconic catcher. But that created something and once again it was led by the. Who Got it? Lena, a position player, a player, but the guy that undressed my bag and did my locker was Wainwright. Talk about a standard. That was changed in the playoffs that year.
Speaker 1:We get down the weeds on it, because we really break it down. You say that's their identity. So Mookie Betts does that. Well, we also, the same series see an outfielder no disrespect but Teoscar Hernandez, it's a fly ball, should have been easy. Double, if not a triple, and barely you know gets to first base. So it's not an identity that takes over the whole team.
Speaker 3:I mean, you'd love for 25, 26 guys to do that, but it doesn't necessarily happen. But what is the conversation that maybe happens between some of those guys and Teoscar? I understand? The only thing I'll say is Teoscar.
Speaker 1:Hernandez. It wasn't his first game in the big leagues. He's been around a long time and it just it happens. I know we always say this. There's always that addendum at the end that we always say no excuses, but it does happen.
Speaker 2:He but it, it happens it does and it's how long it lingers. For me, like, if he does it again and again, that's a problem. If he does it once and it's a once and off, you're like okay. So do you think it?
Speaker 1:is again, we'll go down a different rabbit hole. We won't do that. Spend this time with with the the don, with talking about this. But you would think, after all this time, all the discussion, all the talk, the talk about Mookie Betts, brian Reynolds, these guys that bust it all the time, it's just, it's hard this is of the fan in me, apologize, you guys have been down there. It's just hard to imagine. Although my buddy, john Wader, always goes like I'm sorry, there just is no excuse at the big league level, or the professional level for that matter, or the professional level for that matter, that it happens at all, but it does it does happen.
Speaker 3:And you know, I think that that's the challenge is we're human and these guys are human when you can have those conversations around, hey, it's unacceptable.
Speaker 3:If we're going to dog it, that's not the way that we're going to compete and play, that's not the standard that we're going to hold ourselves to. And how do we continually? It's never going to be perfect, nobody's perfect, and there's going to be times that we do fall short. But how quickly do we address that issue? How quickly do we get back on the horse and continue to compete to win? And I remember Teoscar. What was the? He came up with a big, that big grand slam against San Diego.
Speaker 3:Yes, that was before what you're talking about but going back to analytics and scouting, right, if we don't have scouts, we can't see that type of attitude and that type of commitment to winning in the minor leagues, because you're never going to see that in numbers. So is there somebody that our scouts are going out there to see? That see that moment that maybe a player gets an opportunity to play a year longer, maybe gets to the big leagues for a cup of coffee because of the way they go about it, and then they end up having a heck of a career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, amen, that's true, I'm going to have to run boys Well that's perfect timing.
Speaker 2:Perfect timing. I don't want him to leave. I don't want to stop.
Speaker 3:The Don. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Don.
Speaker 2:Don.
Speaker 1:Kelly.
Speaker 3:Appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1:Can't thank him enough, and we'll have him back, no doubt about that for another edition of.
Speaker 2:Hold my Cutter, thank you.
