Hold My Cutter
Email: Holdmycutter@gmail.com
Hold My Cutter
What Happens When the Mask Comes Off?
Mike "Spanky" LaValliere pulls no punches as he takes us behind home plate for a candid look at baseball through a catcher's eyes. From his days with the Cardinals to becoming a Gold Glove winner and fan favorite with the Pittsburgh Pirates, LaValliere's journey reveals the hidden complexities of one of baseball's most demanding positions.
With refreshing honesty, Spanky tackles the evolution of catching techniques, expressing serious concerns about today's one-knee approach: "I don't understand the catching that's going on right now... at the lower levels, if you're on a knee, you're not doing any service." His breakdown of what made him successful defensively offers invaluable insights for players and coaches alike.
The conversation turns particularly fascinating when LaValliere pulls back the curtain on catcher-umpire relationships in the pre-analytics era. His stories of umpires expanding the strike zone for mouthy batters and the importance of game management over rigid strike zones highlight just how dramatically baseball has changed. When asked about his relationship with umpires, LaValliere's insider perspective is priceless: "If one of the hitters was a little mouthy, you get a little tap... move a little further outside."
Perhaps most compelling are LaValliere's raw, emotional reflections on the Pirates' magical 1990-92 division title runs, culminating in the heartbreaking 1992 NLCS loss featuring Sid Bream's infamous slide. Even decades later, Spanky maintains: "I still believe that I got that back leg before," and reveals he couldn't watch the replay for fifteen years afterward. His stories about teammates like Barry Bonds ("the best player I ever saw, bar none") and Bob Walk offer delightful glimpses into clubhouse dynamics from a golden era of Pirates baseball.
Whether you're a catching enthusiast, Pirates fan, or simply love authentic baseball stories from someone who lived them, LaValliere's blend of technical knowledge, humor, and heartfelt reflection makes this episode essential listening. Subscribe now for more conversations with the game's most insightful personalities!
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everyone's uh. Fred kusick used to say uh, I don't know, fred, but uh, I've been hitting ahead a lot of times by a hockey puck, so I'm not quite sure about that play that is spanky lavalier to start.
Speaker 2:Hold my cutter, mike spank lavalier, the former buckle catcher who lives here in graydon. A special edition of hold my cutter, mike spank levier, the former buckle catcher who lives here in graydon. Special edition of hold my cutter. Spanky, said you know I I think there are thousands and thousands of people that are tuned in now to hold my cutter. I'd like to jump on board here. And he decided he's the first guest, by the way, who's provided us with stogie? He's a legend, an absolute legend.
Speaker 1:This is my go-to everyday cigar Oliva yes, Okay, the Oliva, I'm sorry. Siri G, which is, like I said, a very fine cigar. My favorite is Monte Cristo no 2. Oh yeah, the Monte Cristo.
Speaker 2:No 2.
Speaker 1:I don't break any laws. So for this we've I don't break any laws. So for this we've got the legal stokes.
Speaker 2:The Oliva from.
Speaker 1:Spanky LaValle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me.
Speaker 1:I want you to cough so fucking bad, excuse me.
Speaker 2:It's the first F-bomb Spanky will drop. And the last one Very special edition of Hold my, we started, yeah, we started. You started out with your uh, I mean you just quoting the movie, whatever, yeah, what is it olivio? I called it olivia, oliva, oliva good catcher spanky, how long have you lived in bradent I?
Speaker 1:moved here from St Pete, moved from New Hampshire, st Pete, 1985. And when I got traded to the Pirates in 87, my in-laws were snowboarding from New Hampshire to Bradenton and figured well, you know what, let's just move to Bradenton. So I've been here since 1988.
Speaker 2:That's unbelievable 1988. And you hear people who have lived in one place for a long time. You hear it up in Pittsburgh, the Cranberry area, how much it's changed. You know there are just cow pastures. I mean it has changed this area.
Speaker 1:Well, especially out east. The Lakewood Ranch was basically just milk cow farms and now it's a thriving community, great golf courses, great restaurants. A little too far out from my liking, but yeah, everything east of the interstate was basically palmetto, bushes and cows, and now it's some absolutely fabulous neighborhoods. Spanky, we call those heifto bushes and cows. Now it's some absolutely fabulous neighborhoods.
Speaker 3:We call those heifers, not cows. Tennessee just saying.
Speaker 1:Don't you eat heifers, you milk cows. Good point.
Speaker 3:We call those slugbusters.
Speaker 1:I majored in cow biology in college, did you? No, absolutely not. I majored in cow biology in college, did you no, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:I majored in baseball. So two catchers walk into a bar and this is what you get. This is what you're going to get all day baby. You get McHenry and LaValle.
Speaker 3:You know I couldn't help it. I had to take it off the.
Speaker 2:I might do the same thing at some point. Yeah, I kind of feel cool with it.
Speaker 1:I can to take it off the. I might do the same thing at some point. Yeah, I kind of feel cool with it. I can't, because it's got this beautiful catching glove. This is what the athletes use.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's, it's this kind of glove. Yeah, hey, greg, these are athletes. These are athletes. Greg, you understand, I don't want to move, you understand.
Speaker 3:The athletes. You's what they want, right, you put the cigar in it. It's a beautiful display. That's all Michael LaVallee right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a concept that a lot of catchers don't get is get the ball inside the glove. It usually helps.
Speaker 3:That helps a lot. It helps a lot. Yeah, Catching the ball is important.
Speaker 1:And it's funny because nowadays a lot of these guys use small gloves, 33-inch gloves. This is a 35-inch glove. That's what I used and I had no issues getting the ball out and I just figured you know, maybe I'm not as good as the other kids, I need a bigger glove. So that's what I used and I never even thought about going to a smaller glove.
Speaker 3:You know they didn't make a glove above 33 and a half. For a long time it was an all-star guard for a long time. They discontinued that 35. They brought it back because all the receiving numbers and everything else. That's a game changer.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you know, and it's one thing you know if you have to be perfect all the time and it's tough, because you know as a catcher it's a long season you got bumps, you got bruises, you know you take a beating mentally and physically. You got to babysit those knuckleheads on the mounds. So the last thing you want to do is have issues with your glove, no doubt. And if you've got something that you're comfortable with, you know you can handle just one less thing to check off, you don't have to worry about no question, no question by the way, if you're watching hold my cutter right now on youtube, you're where the heck are these guys?
Speaker 2:we're actually doing a special edition of hold my cutter in bradenton, florida, right outside the uh, what's this called? Is this called the mckechnie clubhouse at lecom park?
Speaker 3:I believe it's I think it's a greg brown clubhouse no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Not yet, not, not yet, not yet. No, not not yet. It should be. Yeah, it's just a matter of time yeah, just a matter of time. So anyway, we're here inside this tent area.
Speaker 1:We're renaming things yes, we are nowadays, in this, in this country, 100 everything's been renamed gulf of america, just along the America.
Speaker 2:We're just along the Golf of America, right back a few miles from us.
Speaker 1:I wonder if they're going to change. It's so true, they've got to change the street now. Golf of Mexico Drive.
Speaker 2:It's got to be Golf of America. Drive, that's right 100%.
Speaker 3:You've got to be in uniform. You've got to stay current.
Speaker 2:You got to stay current, stay current. How much do you pay attention to the current state of baseball, the Pirates and, specifically, catchers? Do you ever watch games and concentrate? Because I know he does. He just took a giant leap for us. I know this big sigh, I don't want to hear how great baseball was back when you played. I am trying my best to say this in a way that doesn't sound like I'm an old disgruntled guy.
Speaker 1:I think there's a balance to it. You know what Nowadays? I don't understand the catching that's going on right now.
Speaker 1:I used to help with some college kids around and they started catching on on me. I used to help with some college kids around and they started catching on in me and I couldn't teach them because I don't believe in it. But again, that's part of the old-fashioned part. I just don't see it, especially at the younger levels, being able to do that. The big leagues guys are a little more pinpoint, I get it Okay. But at the lower levels, able to do that, the big leagues guys are a little more pinpoint, I get it okay. But at the lower levels college, high school, little league if you're on a knee you're not doing any service. Well, how do you ever build up strength? Well, you know, there's a lot of endurance, there's a lot of things. Um, you know, and I tell all my kids, uh, that whenever I was uh coaching, catching around here, be a kid swim, ride your bike.
Speaker 1:You know you're not going to get any stronger with that nintendo. You might have some badass thumps but you know what?
Speaker 2:that ain't gonna help you.
Speaker 1:But yeah, just you know what be um. Be an athlete, play all the sports, yeah, sports. You develop different muscle groups. To me as a catcher, you need all of that all of it.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to hear a debate. Yeah, you take the side of. You know what I like one-knee catchers and Spanky can retort what's the great benefit of of catching these days, and most of them do, I don't. Is there anybody that's not doing it?
Speaker 3:now. No, um, there's not. There's guys that transition into a normal stance, but no, nobody's really doing it any other way. Now and to spanky's point, I think it's a disservice because you watch these guys at the major level and they were more pinpoint. They're getting paid to receive the ball better, they're able to manipulate, because if me and you I I've been fortunate enough recently to catch bullpens and do this off a knee we would have been different. I mean, you're gold glover, I really believe I could have been that much better because it kept me, it keeps me close to the ground, but I wouldn't stay there.
Speaker 3:And that's one thing I tell everybody is Stone Brown. Just today we're watching somebody catch, not going to mention any names, they're tipping the pitches. That's the biggest thing for me is I can see, because they're vulnerable one way or the other and they have the wrong knee down and they can't move to the left, they can't move to the right, so they'll give away a pitch. And especially at the college level, I do a lot of college stuff and I see these guys and they set up early and it's like all right, here comes a fastball up, here comes a breaking ball down. You can see the anxiety immediately, because most of these guys don't have the rhythm and timing. Because that's what, more than anything, folks, knee down or not, you can catch the knee down. I'm sure there's some pictures out to you as you're catching the ball, your knee's falling down. That's being athletic.
Speaker 3:What these guys aren't understanding, they're getting stuck in unathletic positions and that's where, at the major league level, you can get away with it, because they miss in like a three to five foot area. Even in college these guys are throwing 100. Now They'll miss seven feet and you cannot get to that ball. So I could sit here and debate them. The analytics will show that these guys are blocking better. But you look at the size of the guys like even on our team Outside of Henry Davis, everybody is 6'1 or taller. It is a different animal. It helps them stay grounded and they can cover more space.
Speaker 2:That's the point. Okay, so you were not that tall. Was that one of the reasons why it wouldn't have made sense for you anyway? Right, I always believed that was an advantage of anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, being five foot eight is I fold up better than that guy. That's six foot four yeah, he funnels the ball in differently. Yeah, exactly, and you know one of the things you know. The argument is you know you're going to get pitches. Well, I can tell you this if they ever go to that automated umpire, guess what?
Speaker 2:You don't have to make anything look good. It's one of the reasons they won't do it. They will not go to the ABS system. They're going to go to the challenge system in spring training this year and then no doubt it will be in baseball, major league baseball, during the regular season next year. But it will be just the challenge because they don't want to impact these catchers. The framing how big Spanky when you played. I can't recall the framing stuff being so important.
Speaker 1:Well, I can tell you this the relationships between catchers and umpires was a huge factor. So that really was more important than anything, Because now if you were pulling pitches like the guys do now to make pitches look better, you would hit all 160 at the plate once you get up there yeah because the umpires would tell you you do that again.
Speaker 1:Okay, every pitch is going to be a ball that you do that and when you get up to the plate, it's. It's not going to be 17 inches, it's going, going to be more like 27 inches oh yeah.
Speaker 3:They're not wild, they won't try about it. I got that as a rookie, did you really?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:My first start. I got four Ks. I struck out on the first three strikeouts. I couldn't have hit the ball with a boat paddle. There's no shot. He's exactly right. In your day you talk about the guys in Atlanta and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:You couldn't hit those guys in a 32 inch play Okay, so so the relationship with the catcher and the umpire was almost more important than all the framing stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, much more. So. I mean and it was, it was. I mean I'd like to every pitch to make it look good. That was close, but what I'm seeing now is some pitches that aren't that close.
Speaker 2:They're trying to make it look good and it looks silly.
Speaker 1:I mean to me it looks very silly to try to manipulate a pitch that's six inches off to make it look like a strike. Did it back in my day? I mean, you might even have an umpire come around in front of home plate, dust it off and give you the dickens You're like. I don't know if anybody knows what the dickens are, oh yeah you're like I don't know if anybody knows what the dick is.
Speaker 2:Well, you get your ass chewed out. That's like a little boy yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was like, okay, I will not do that and that was a big part of catching back in the day. It was, you know what keep the ball in front of you at all costs, okay, and if you can make it look good, you do, but you've got to catch the ball and keep it in front of you. That was a big thing back then. Who's?
Speaker 2:And if you can make it look good, you do, but you've got to catch the ball and keep it in front of you. That was a big thing back then. Who's your favorite? Ump and your least favorite ump Because you can say this now Statue of limitations. Now you can go ahead and spill the beans and he used to look. That used to be the first thing he looked at. Who's umpire today? Everybody used to do that plate umpire was Well, yeah, normally, you know, if you had you know.
Speaker 1:First game of the series.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, who do we have? Yeah, what's the crew?
Speaker 1:And then I always liked catching for a pitcher's umpire. Yeah, because for me, those you know 36, 40 at-bats where you know 36, 40 at bats where you know I liked it Calling strikes versus at the plate. You know maybe four at bats where I had to have a big zone and I had a big bat. I had a 35-inch bat.
Speaker 3:You also swung a big bat too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, hold my cutter that almost went over his head by the way, which is rare.
Speaker 1:He's not used to hearing that value you're using doesn't take it very well. That's not a big thing going over my head. I'm short, but knowing that I always preferred a pitcher's umpire. It was much more difficult and I always maintained no matter what league you're in, if you call more strikes than balls, you'll have less trouble with players and umpires and fans, that's well said. Yeah, because you know what, when you call strikes, the game moves. Kids swing the bats, more Everything about it is good.
Speaker 3:That's why I hate the automated system, because it's going to be a lot more balls yeah, the bats more. Everything about it is good. That's why I hate the automated system, because it's going to be a lot more balls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the automated system. I don't know how they can do it, because I mean, everything is flawed.
Speaker 2:They won't. It's not going to be full-time automated. It's going to be a challenge system, but it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 3:Did you hear the story about Jason DeLay? No, you'll love this. Six times in a row Challenge, one in a game. So he did six in a game and one each challenge. One, each challenge Six times. Each call was our turn. The umpire goes will you please not do that again Because you got to think. I mean, you think about that sphincter Spanky. It may be like this and it's like uh-oh, uh-oh, been at one point. But like, going back to his point and I think the umpires and the relationship, I think the automated system, when it came about for them to get judged, you know, so they started getting graded. That was when I was in and that's when it changed, and it changed everything. I went from a top 10 receiver to the bottom 10 in a heartbeat, so you really had no choice to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the uh the back of the day, you know the umpires weren't, you know, graded like they are now. Yeah, and you kind of could police the game. Yeah, you know the way you needed to. If one of the hitters was a little mouthy, you get a little tap. Move a little further outside would you play into?
Speaker 1:that, oh, absolutely. Oh, my gosh. I mean Runge. He was a very, very good umpire. You knew if someone was on his bad side. He'd tell you beforehand, really, and Donnie was a veteran guy so he knew what was going on. So I line up about three inches outside and Paul goes further.
Speaker 3:No, way Further.
Speaker 1:By the time he punches the guy out, I'm a foot outside.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:The next time up the hitter goes. Paul, I get it. I'm sorry it won't happen again.
Speaker 2:That's the way it should be right there, I'm sorry, and now you go back to normal. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, but that's you know. That's. You know part of the game and you know umpires back then were graded on how they kept the game going.
Speaker 2:You know the flow of the game.
Speaker 3:I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:How they did stuff like that and their relationships, their relationships. They didn't have a clock, they had an umpire speeding up the game. You know there's a lot to be said and I have trouble with the clock, especially in tight situations. You know where you get a younger kid out on the mound or a younger catcher. The game's still too fast.
Speaker 3:It's speeding up and then they throw a pitch they don't want to throw.
Speaker 1:Now you make a mistake, yep, you know. So that part I don't like. There's a few abusers like there is in every sport.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know golf. They put them on the clock, et cetera. You know what you know. Take care of the abusers.
Speaker 2:Let everybody else play yeah.
Speaker 3:Hey.
Speaker 2:Well, I love the clock. I think it's the greatest invention since the Emancipation Proclamation and they're learning, but to his point.
Speaker 3:There was a couple times even Jones brought it up. The clock sped him up last year and he threw a pitch he didn't want to throw.
Speaker 2:And I thought he was hurt.
Speaker 3:I genuinely thought he was hurt because he throws a ball of his own. He ends up walking the guy. We lost one of those games. So be it, but it sucks when it happens to your team?
Speaker 2:Sure, of course it does. Were you truly you know when the Pirates got you from the Cardinals on? I guess it was April 1st 1986? 87. 87. 87.
Speaker 3:I was watching you, then I was in my crib.
Speaker 2:It was. I figured that.
Speaker 3:Spanky yeah.
Speaker 1:Shit in your pants, like you do now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. Well, some things don't need to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Of course the Pirates got Van Slyke and Mike Dunn, the pitcher, and the Tony Pena deal and got Lavallee, as you mentioned First, four years of Pirate, you win the Gold Glove. How much hockey you played growing up in Massachusetts. Did it help you? You talked about a moment ago about playing all the sports so it makes you more athletic. So in a way that did, but specifically as a catcher, did that help you at all?
Speaker 1:I think, if anything, strong legs Okay, you know, I wasn't a goalie, those guys are nuts. I mean catching and goalie, two different things.
Speaker 2:You don't want to try?
Speaker 1:as a goalie the guy in front of you is trying to tip it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're trying to hit it the other way. Yeah, in baseball, so yeah we're. We're much different. So much wait, we're trying to foul tip it. Uh, no, that's what I'm saying. In hockey, they're trying to redirect it.
Speaker 1:So now you've got this puck, yeah that's this wide and then it's going 100 miles an hour and they're trying to deflect it, you know, into your past, you, whatever. Yeah, you know, we're with us. They're trying to hit it into your pasture or whatever.
Speaker 3:With us. They're trying to hit it the other way, yeah, which is nice, completely different.
Speaker 1:But I would say most of playing other sports. Yes, you develop different muscle groups, but you also develop different mindsets. A hockey mindset is different from a baseball mindset. It's different from a soccer mindset.
Speaker 1:It's different from a football mindset and I like that idea of kids playing all these sports, because now you get different things going on. In football, you lose your temper, you're going to get a penalty. And in baseball you lose your temper, you're gonna you're gonna get a penalty. Um in, in baseball you lose your temper, you're you're worthless. Golf, you're worthless. The only thing I loved about hockey I could lose my temper and still be good yeah, they want you to lose your temper.
Speaker 2:Some things never change.
Speaker 3:I, I love the mindset. Mindset thought Brownie right, Because even in the broadcast you have to have a different mindset there, because I'm a guy that gets sped up and I have to learn how to slow down. Same thing I had in the game, but that mindset is a game changer. I think that's the separator to stay in the big leagues, don't you think it really is?
Speaker 1:And that's like I said, it comes from different types of competition. Once you get involved and you sign your first professional contract, then it's a matter of really refining how you react to the game. And once you get that right mindset and make the proper reactions, that's whenever your athleticism you know is able to show through. Instead of thinking so much, it's natural, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:I'm going to ask both of you guys, because you've seen a lot of games Like when do you see that manifest in guys in my leagues? Because obviously it's going a lot faster for guys now. We saw Prodigies get to the big leagues leagues earlier, but like now they're rushing to the big leagues. And we saw last year jackson holiday they brought him down. That was brilliant. Came back different cat. But like when or what do you guys look for? Like you in the booth you've been in the booth too but like what are you guys looking for when you're watching a guy and say something's shifting and how long maybe does it take? Because I feel like I needed to fail more and I would have been better served at points being a triple a, getting some understanding of who I am and then coming back with a different mindset.
Speaker 1:I mean, for me it's it was a looking at a quiet um confident pace everything started to slow down, so basically, yeah, it's where you, where you're not so anxious and you can tell a hitter when he's anxious he is committing too soon. We're a guy once he slows everything down and then you've got that confidence that I can take this pitch and still be able to produce. Versus when you're younger it's like, well, I just missed my cookie, now I'm done. Yeah, panic. I think that's a big part of it. And a lot of guys you can read their faces and you can see their eyes.
Speaker 2:Well, you can see it after and at bat Boy. You can see them go back to the dugout and just see it. They say the deer in the headlight look, but you can absolutely see it. It's amazing how these guys that struggle as young guys it does feel like it is 0-2 immediately when they get to the plate. It's an old cliche again, but they are behind in the count all the time.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, and back in the day, you know your premium home run hitters. Rob Deere would strike out 100 times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now everybody does. Yeah, you know. So that part's a little bit different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's a lot does. Yeah, you know. So that part I think that's a little bit different. Yeah, and it's a lot different. You know where you. You know you don't see as much as the two-strike approach now and that's the emphasis back when I played, which is a different um emphasis and you're compensated differently than when we were back then. So that part I understand.
Speaker 1:You know you're going to get paid, get the ball out of the ballpark and you're not going to be kind of penalized for striking out so we're back in the day If you struck out too much and you didn't have any pop you're gone, but you really don't get rewarded for being a guy that moves.
Speaker 2:When he was with the Pirates, a J-Bell type. Not much of a reward for that type of baseball player these days, unless you're on a great team.
Speaker 3:We had a cool conversation the other day about 10 more points on the batting average. You think about the on-base percentage. It puts us in a better category when it comes to offense, right? Just 10 more points on our batting average overall. How do you balance that? Because that's the one thing that's so hard to watch is there is guys chasing the arbitration number. Right, If they have five more home runs, that may be $200,000, $300,000. I mean, it's not a little bit of money. So how do you balance it out? Because if they maybe get five more hits instead of 10 more strikeouts, that's a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is, and that's what's driving a lot of what we see on offense now is that paycheck that money and you know what?
Speaker 3:But to win you've got to do both yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know it. Just you know that's one of the things Clint, when he was manager here, I would help in spring training and I saw situational heading I saw none of it and I was absolutely flabbergasted. Yeah, you know your big guys were a lot of pop. You don't expect them to. You know, roll the ball over. You know, hit the ball second base, then move a runner. But you expected your little guys to be able to do that and now you don't see that.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting, though Spanky, in that you're now hearing guys like Andrew McCutcheon quoted the other day. Pirate Fest said it, and it's not a great secret the only way a team like the Pirates can win is to have players like that. Now you need some guys like Cruz to hit the ball in the ballpark, otherwise you better move guys Well, you know, and PNC, I wouldn't call it a home run. It's paradise, especially for a righty, that's gigantic.
Speaker 1:And left and center is gigantic. I mean, right field looks fairly reachable but it's not like some of these other little band boxes. And you go back to the days whenever I played with and against the Cardinals. St Louis Bush Stadium was a very big ballpark and they had their team. It was made of defense and speed and they hit the ball on the ground, beat it out, stole bases and they were custom built for that ballpark. Where something you know. I'd like to see that a little bit more in the game. Yeah, we were talking about the grass.
Speaker 3:We have some of the slowest grass in all baseball, it's kentucky bluegrass and it's thick. And I I said I wish they would change it and they've been looking into it about changing to permuta. But yeah, to your point. Then you think about the pitching, you think about the defense. I, I kid you not, I bet if it went to permuta it's 10 points of the batting average immediately, because that's how much faster it is.
Speaker 1:Well, that's uh back in the day at jack murphy stadium. You know that that was a very fast track. Um, you'd go to uh and I did this a wrigley field especially early in the season the grass is like six inches thick and it'd be wet, and so in batting practice I went, put a ball down behind the pitcher's mound and put a little grass on top of it.
Speaker 2:I remember you did this.
Speaker 1:And didn't tell anybody no, I didn't.
Speaker 1:And so I go out about the fourth or fifth inning and I go and Frank Pulley is the second place umpire. I go, frank, could you pick up that ball right there? And he looks at me and goes, what are you doing? I go there's a ball there, and tell him to cut the grass, you know, because I mean you couldn't hit the ball, you threw that grass. And sure enough, he comes over and picks it up. And I go see, you know, just I did that, I mean it, just you know something to you know, to prove a point, I mean and this is nothing against Ryan Sandberg, but Ryan Sandberg at Wrigley Field was a much better defender than he was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think slower right, slowed him down, slowed the ball down, he got to the ball. Quite the range you know, but hey again you know it's Tailored to that team, though Exactly. Yeah, Going to help my second baseman. That was the ballpark. That's the way it goes. What's your favorite ballpark, by the way? I?
Speaker 1:loved Wrigley. I really loved Wrigley.
Speaker 2:Just the atmosphere, yeah, everything about it, you know it was the day games Back in our day.
Speaker 1:you only knew what day it was. It was Sunday because it was a day game yeah, everything else yeah until you went to wrigley and then you don't know what day it was yeah, then you had some day games, yeah, and I mean that was just kind of cool. You'd see people of all types, you'd get suits. Yeah, you know, coat and tie, come in, rip off the tie, grab a, an old style yeah, chug it, go to work.
Speaker 1:Hot dog mustard all over your, your nice, um, uh, pressed um button up shirt. Yeah, I mean to me that was just cool as could be, yeah. And then you had the other folks that were just regular folks just coming out to see a ball game in the afternoon. Loyal, loyal, yeah, very, and and just the atmosphere was fabulous.
Speaker 3:I liked Kingdom Yards back in the day I thought that they had great atmosphere also One of my favorites. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Baltimore. Hey, spanky, we love checking guys. Major League debuts. September 9, 1984 in Montreal. You came in, I think, to catch right in the 10th inning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so back in the day at Olympic Stadium the bullpens were like our bullpen visit. Bullpen was beyond right field and they had like a nice fishing house that was the bullpen, and so we had like six different catchers. They called me up basically to catch in the bullpen. So I was like great, and now we've gone through Bo Diaz, ozzie, virgil John.
Speaker 2:Walken. I should mention that the folks that don't hit with the Phillies obviously.
Speaker 1:Everybody. And now they just pinch run for our last catcher. And I know it is and I go, I'm in the game. And now I start getting really nervous and the phone rings and I'm going let's get. It's the wrong number. So now it says hey, you know you're catching, get in here. So now you have to run. And I had to run across their dugout to get to our dugout. Okay, and I was shaking like a leaf Wait, wait, you had to run from right field, oh, like in front of their dugout.
Speaker 2:Go get us my game.
Speaker 1:And I I I get timed against a turtle and lost Okay. So it took a long time for me to get to the dugout. So I get there and and I'm I'm shaky a little bit. This is my debut and jerry, that's unbelievable. And jerry kuzman comes over and he's helping me put my shin guard no way, no.
Speaker 1:And then with the phillies, and he goes kid you'll be okay, you'll be okay were you shaky a little bit I was really shaky you know, once I got to the field I was okay, but the lead up to that it was just like what's the deal? I started out the year in 1984 in double a as a backup catcher, so this was a fast track huge thing for me what was it like?
Speaker 2:who was the pitcher, by the way?
Speaker 1:yeah oh, larry anderson, oh my god, larry anderson. All he threw was sliders and I wasn't quite sure, you know, hadn't seen that much of really any of those guys.
Speaker 1:And so I put down a one. He shook his head Slider, yeah, one, no Slider. So I just put down slider and he'd be back door. He'd use both sides and I just said, well, there's no need for a one or a two, it's just slider, slider, slider, slider, and he gets out of the inning. We won the ballgame, so I came in catching for the save, so you got your first save.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, good for you. Didn't you get in a bat that day too? Yeah?
Speaker 1:I was a little excited Back then I was a Pole hitter with no power, that didn't go. Dick Rapafee Was a sinker baller, and he throws me a little sinker outside and I politely hit a 42 hopper to the second baseman and I'm not beating him. You were trying to hit it in the seats though. Oh hell yeah.
Speaker 2:I go up there.
Speaker 1:Now batting like.
Speaker 2:La Vallee. Oh, that's right, Of course you're in Montreal. It's perfect.
Speaker 1:I didn't even thought about that, and now I'm going to make a huge splash.
Speaker 2:You were like 5'11 at that point. The fans in Montreal love that he's batting. Mike is a bat, yeah.
Speaker 1:I get up to the plate and my spikes never touched the.
Speaker 3:AstroTurf and get in there.
Speaker 1:And no game plan, no, nothing, it was just like I'm just going to knock the piss out of this. Wait, did you guys?
Speaker 3:really wear spikes in the AstroTurf. Oh yeah, oh, no wonder you guys had so many problems?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got two replacement knees. Yeah, yeah, I've got two replaced knees. Yeah, yeah, but you know what? Ouch, I love hitting on it.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But taking the toll on your body, backs, knees yeah, because they just threw carpet down over cement Pretty much. Yeah, yeah, it was Montreal was an older place too, and it was cold.
Speaker 3:I heard everybody I've ever talked to that I didn't get to play montreal. They loved it like they love the city, they love the town. It makes me wonder why baseball is not there anymore, because I know that they would support it the fans at that time I don't think appreciated.
Speaker 1:The game makes sense, you know and hockey is a much different game to watch. Yeah um, I had a chance to go to the Forum in Montreal A huge event Saturday everybody coat and tie the women dressed in the nines. This is an event where the baseball you'd have 5,000 people in an 80,000-.
Speaker 2:When they were winning. They were one of the best teams in the early 90s. For me they had the best teams in the early 90s. They had great teams From Marty and Dawson, I mean for me.
Speaker 1:They had the best scouting system that I ever saw while I was playing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, some of the names if you drop some of the names in the early 90s.
Speaker 1:Raines, Raines and Dawson, and I mean the pitching staff that they had, I mean it was absolutely fabulous. They had a very, very good team.
Speaker 2:How about your first big league start about 12 days later.
Speaker 1:Do you remember? Let's find the whole thing out.
Speaker 2:Do you know where you were?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were at the vet.
Speaker 2:No, no, of all places, three River Stadium, we were in Three River Stadium. Man Wow, and your first hit is off of.
Speaker 1:Rick Roden. Yeah, yeah, so I get the ball back and they can't even write on it because there's so many scuff marks.
Speaker 2:Oh, because of Roden, and tack marks.
Speaker 1:They had to use a different ball. So the ball I have at home for my first hit isn't the real ball? Of course not, I couldn't even write on it.
Speaker 3:Tricky Ricky, Did you keep it though?
Speaker 1:You have that ball.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, I still have it Looks like the Sandlot ball. Oh yeah, Just messed up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just like you know. It looks like you know. If you give your kids a ball and they go play back, that's what it looked like.
Speaker 2:Did you end up catching him at all later? No, you never did no.
Speaker 3:Tricky was gone by the time I got to Tricky. I love it.
Speaker 2:So that's 84. And now in April again April 1st 1987, you're traded to the Pirates. But you had been traded from the Phillies to the Cardinals in 84, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the winter meetings in 84.
Speaker 2:And what was that like?
Speaker 1:And this was a mess because I had a very, very good year. I said I started off the year as the backup in AA got off to a very good start. Aaron Dalton was in AAA. He got hurt. They called me up rather than the number one guy because he was just not doing very well, that's the one event.
Speaker 1:And then I get to AAA. First time I got a chance to play every day. I ended up hitting like 320. I had like five or six homers this is in a month and a half and I never hit many home runs and the Cardinals, liked what they saw, made the trade. I ended up having knee surgery just a little slight tear of the meniscus and it was outpatient.
Speaker 1:I went in, got it done, left that day and two days later Bruce Suter signed with the Braves. So I get traded for Jeff Lottie. That was two right-handers out of their bullpen, and so now we can't do the trade. So I called it off because Lottie was going to be their closer, so they called off the trade. And once they called off the trade, the Phillies had already filled my spot on the roster.
Speaker 1:So I became a free agent and the Cardinals wanted me anyway. So I ended up signing with the Cardinals. Made a little extra money on it, man.
Speaker 2:And you see, now you play for Whitey. Yeah, what was that like?
Speaker 1:Whitey was extremely.
Speaker 2:Tough, brilliant, oh, brilliant, brilliant as a field general oh yeah, explain that deeper.
Speaker 1:I want to hear more about it. You're talking about a guy that was three innings ahead of everybody. You know he handled his pitching staff, all of his you know moves that he made. It was just every time it was brilliant. He was not what you'd call a young guy's manager.
Speaker 1:He took care of his veteran guys Really not a whole lot of interaction with the younger guys, so it was great to watch and to learn, but then whenever I get traded over to Pittsburgh, but then whenever I get traded over to Pittsburgh, then I came across another incredible field manager that was a players manager. I was so fortunate to have back-to-back guys that were just two of the best.
Speaker 2:Later you played for Geno Lamont right, the White Sox. How about the pitching staff? By the way, in 86, were you a teammate with Clint Hurdle in 86? Yes, I was. Isn't that wild? Yes, I was. How about it?
Speaker 1:Clint was our utility guy, played first, played the outfield. He was our third catcher.
Speaker 2:He played everywhere.
Speaker 1:And yeah, Clint was a little wilder back then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, by the time we got him here. Yeah, clem was a little wilder back then. Yeah, yeah, by the time we got him here. Yeah, yeah, in 84, the pitching staff for the Cardinals Bob Forsh, danny Cox, john Tudor, tim Conroy, the Gateway High School product, who's a longtime scout, I think, with the Royals now, todd Worrell was a closer, so that's the other thing too. You had. You had some good pitching staffs over the years, didn't you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the phenomenal, that's because they're catching.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I understand, but you always like to give a nod to the pitchers.
Speaker 1:These were proven guys. Joaquin Andujar was there also and these are good quality, talented guys that helped me with my developments. Calling games of just kind of feeling out what they wanted to do and paying attention to it. That helped me out an awful lot. But that team is pitching. The defense and the speed were just incredible, did you?
Speaker 3:I'm sorry. Go ahead, no Spanky, like when you say they helped you kind of fill out what they wanted to do. Go a little bit deeper, Because now it's complete you talk about back in the day. You said that a couple times. That's one thing I miss.
Speaker 1:I miss guys tearing up their scouting report and going off field, especially off that guy that's the one thing that I, and I still believe to this day, is that guy on the mound is a different guy every time. He takes them one thousand percent,000%, and so your scouting reports the only thing I really ever wanted to know about the other team. Okay, yeah, I want to know his weaknesses, but is he hot or is he cold? So if your superstar on the other team was cold, we'd do different things against him rather than try to get them out the same way, you know, when he was on fire. Now you had to pay a little different attention and, yeah, I learned that a lot from Bob Forge and Tudor you know where they would pitch different guys different ways, depending on situations and what they've been doing lately.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of of what you as a catcher, your priorities and your in your mind, one of the first, most important things is to know what. First of all, as a broadcast, yes.
Speaker 1:You notice, the amateur hasn't touched his mic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Well, you're not supposed to play with it Anyhow.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, you're not supposed to play with it Anyhow, my name's Mike. So my question was when you prioritize as a catcher and you were catching Spanky most important to you was to know whether guys were hot or cold, first and foremost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so much stuff goes into your brain For cold, first and foremost, yeah.
Speaker 2:So much stuff goes into your brain.
Speaker 1:For the opposing team yes, yeah. But for my pitcher, what has he got that night? Because out of 35 starts he's going to have probably 10 starts where he's got his best stuff. You don't have to vary too much. He's going to have 10 starts where he stinks, where you have to try to get him.
Speaker 2:That's the hardest working night for a catcher, right yeah, you're mentally exhausted. To get you through it, get him through fifth or sixth inning back in the day. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That was a job well done for me. Yeah, and it was the in-between, it was those 15 starts in between where kind of good stuff, kind of not as bad.
Speaker 3:That's usually when they don't know either.
Speaker 1:And that's where I needed to know and differentiate that and hopefully know early enough in the game to get the most out of it.
Speaker 2:So you platooned when we were at the Pirates with Slott and then, I think, ron Karkovice when you were at the White Sox. What's that like when it's kind of a dual situation? Do you try, do you guys both kind of combine and figure out how to catch certain pitchers, or do you put your own stamp on it? How does that work? Yeah?
Speaker 1:it was pretty much an individual thing. I mean, he had the book on hitters. You know, Donnie knew, you know the book, I knew the book. But how we handled the pitching staff was completely different. It was.
Speaker 1:And if you ask the pitchers, you know it's like oh yes, spanky, you know, gets me to do this, or Donnie got me to do this. You know, those are the different things that just make, make us all different. Yeah, no doubt. You know, instead of becoming robotic and that's to me that's the worst thing, because I would hit off the catchers you know that would be.
Speaker 2:You know, if I had a catcher, that was just a blockhead.
Speaker 3:I kind of knew what was coming, huh I wish I would have knew that more, like a lot of the reds guys did that and would pay attention to what the catcher's doing. Votto cared more about what if I was catching or if Russell was catching. I'll never forget he tapped me on the leg and said today's my day Never got a hit off me. It's three years into my career he's never got a hit off me.
Speaker 3:Votto never got a hit off no he got a broken back single through, the yelled at me. I said you can't get it like that, you can't get it like that. But I took pride in that too, because I always tried to see who was up there, and especially the big guys. But that's something in my career because I didn't think about that. I wish I would have paid more attention, because I mean a lot of those guys, you know, like he's talking about blockheads, they put down what they can't hit, like oh I can't hit the breaking ball, I'm gonna throw the breaking ball down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, and, as you know, you know, especially younger pitchers yeah, you know, it was like you know, oh, two fastball up and in, and now I'd be diving out over. You knew what was coming for that. One, two pitch. That's kind of what analytics are doing now.
Speaker 3:It's making it very predictable. If you pay attention, you'll see a guy and you'll know okay, here comes a heater up, you know it. It becomes to where. That's where his style and I believe, my style like. I think about the personality first and then kind of rotate down. It matters so much more because you will throw a wrinkle and then that guy's complete game plan goes out the window. And it's fun tell me, it's not fun to see that guy's head go.
Speaker 1:Oh well, there were certain guys that I would sit on a certain pitch.
Speaker 2:Okay, and try to eliminate that for later on in the ballgame, Dennis Martinez had a great curveball okay.
Speaker 1:So my first two at-bats I'd be looking for the curveball and I would make a good swing at it, and if he didn't throw it, I'd do my best with two strikes. But I felt good enough about my game plan that I didn't mind hitting with two strikes. But I I felt good enough about my my game plan and I didn't mind hitting with two strikes. But if he threw me that hook, okay, I was gonna make a good pass at it. Try to eliminate that for later on in the game, because that's one of his best pitches try to eliminate it.
Speaker 2:Man, think about that. Let's just set that game. You hate to say it, nobody. I'm sure the guys do that now, but but not as much I know, I know I again, I hate to well, it I'm sure the guys do that now, Not as much though I know. Again, I hate to suggest that You've got to balance where.
Speaker 1:I think that's where some of the hitters are lacking. Now you balance the analytics with your own brain and what you're seeing, because your eyes aren't lying to you. If you let that inside. Now you can go ahead and balance that. You know we didn't have the analytics. We didn't have. You know, all of the uh, the computer stuff and and printouts and stuff. You know that they have now, which is to me a great advantage, yeah. But sometimes the great advantage can become your detriment. Right when you pay too much attention, you become robotic.
Speaker 3:So how did you get to the point where you went up and looked for that good breaking ball, like what made you come to that conclusion?
Speaker 1:It's not easy. It was always against one of the better pitchers. You know it's like well heck. You know you're facing Nolan. I've tried to eliminate his fastball. Good luck with that you have to be realistic about it. But you know you're better starters. You know I would try. You know one guy maybe had a real good changeup. Let's sit on the change, that's not easy though.
Speaker 1:No, it's very hard, and it's to the point where you said you get your confidence level up and your patience level to where you're comfortable. Confidence and comfortability is a huge thing.
Speaker 3:We've heard that before. Oh yeah, Mike Berger was talking about confidence and momentum.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That you get that comfortability and then you become good, and then good turns into great. That's well said.
Speaker 2:Spanky. Did you have an inkling, by the way, of the trade to Pittsburgh? It was a three-for-one deal. Again, it was April 1st. Everybody thought it was an April Fool's joke. It was Tony Pena. Here you are. Tony Pena is one of the most popular catchers in recent memory. He got his first hit through Rivers Of course I know he's written in stone April Fool's Day 1987.
Speaker 2:It was no joke. When Tony Pena was traded, pirate fans had lost one of their favorite players, and they knew little about Andy Van Slyke and even less about Mike LaValliere and Mike Dunn, but by season's end they would know plenty. He may not have been the biggest name in the deal, but his stocky build reminded pirate fans of a famous buck backstop named Smokey Burgess, mike Spanky LaValliere earned a name for himself in 87 as he quietly hit 300 while catching in over 100 games. His lightning-quick release caught many would-be base-dealers dead in their tracks, as LaValliere earned himself a 1987 Gold Glove Award.
Speaker 2:Well, let's just say Did you have an inkling that was coming? No, no idea, no idea.
Speaker 1:Whatsoever. We had a B game that morning and Steve Lake was the other catcher with the Cardinals and Steve Lake caught all nine innings. This is the end of spring training. There's only two catchers. He caught all nine innings. So I'm out getting ready for the a game at l lang stadium me and andy and we're going through you know our running and getting ready and dave ricketts comes in and says how many days come on?
Speaker 2:you're not playing. How many days before the regular season is this?
Speaker 1:like three or four okay, yeah so uh, hello, he goes, you're not playing and I go. What?
Speaker 2:do you?
Speaker 1:mean, I'm who's catching laker? Well, you know what?
Speaker 2:nobody's catching the doubleheader right, yeah, especially in spring training. Yeah, now it's okay. So now, andy and I, were sitting in the dugout that's like, and we're going all right, we're traded.
Speaker 3:But okay, well, there's only two places where we don't want to go.
Speaker 1:We don't want to go to Montreal because of the whole thing up there, or Pittsburgh, what? No way, I have to admit it. I mean, they had just lost 100 games, three or four seasons in a row.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Getting over the drug trials.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all of this stuff.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of you know, and you're leaving an absolute fabulous organization with the Cardinals, and then you know, get called into the office, been traded to the pirates, you know, and it's just like you want to talk about someone killing your pet snake. Oh boy, I was just like you would say pet snake, not your little dog.
Speaker 3:Pet snake, yeah, not your little dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pet snake, yeah. So it was just like, well you know, and then you know. So the next day, me and Andy got to make a good impression, and so we leave St Peter early, right. There's an accident on the Skyway. We got no cell phones, we can't call, we can't tell.
Speaker 2:So we come moseying in you're trying to get to bradenton, which is just over the skyway bridge, so so we're so we're um. We come moseying in about 11, 30 just you and vance like right, and I'm sure, I'm sure everybody's going.
Speaker 1:Look at these two prima donna assholes, yeah, you know coming in when they want, right, well, you know, leland comes right over. Yeah, you say you know, hey, we were, you know, glad to have you. We really wanted you, you know you want. You want number 10. That was your number with the phillies and carters number 10 and I look at I go that's your number.
Speaker 1:He goes no, no, you can have it. So now I'm going is this guy nuts or is this a test? So I'm not going to take the manager's number. So what are you crazy? Yeah, it says no, no, no, I'll get another number. It's just a number. Yeah, yeah, and, but that was my first interaction with what do?
Speaker 2:you think what? Was it just a test? Do you think? What? Do you think? I don't know you ever, you ever talked to him about it?
Speaker 1:no, I'd love to ask him no, yeah, I would too. That'd be a great. I think he didn't. I think it was genuine, I do he probably did.
Speaker 2:It was just it was only a second year going into a second year as a big league manager and and so so you know, obviously don't have any black and gold, I've got red spikes.
Speaker 1:So hooli or um clubhouse guy at the time and nobody had my size. You know I had size.
Speaker 3:You know, 4f, you know it's 10 feet 4F, is that German?
Speaker 1:So nobody's got my and I'm not going to wear the rest. Go to local Little League folks. So Hooli takes like a four-inch brush and house paint and paints my spikes black. That's awesome, right, wow. And so now the laces are all gooey and I'm tightening my shoes. I got paint all over my spikes and about the third inning it all wears off anyway. But it was like yeah, welcome to Pittsburgh.
Speaker 2:Are you in right away, that the next day? You guys know that yeah that game I was like the next day yeah, started that.
Speaker 1:I love that they were driving across the skyway.
Speaker 2:It's like lavalier and they're in the walk of the clubhouse and they're in the game did you love that, though, oh yeah, yeah, like I think it's.
Speaker 3:I think it's a statement. I really do so.
Speaker 2:yeah, what was, what was it like, though, to replace a guy like Tony Pena? I mean, let's know secret how popular he was, so was he a part of that trade?
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, Tony was the main guy.
Speaker 2:He was the main part of the trade. He was the main guy, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:Whitey got him mostly for the offense and that he didn't have to pinch run for him.
Speaker 2:He always had to pinch run for for me, so that was.
Speaker 1:Whitey's thought process. I did talk to Whitey about that later. He says your defense was fine. Nothing went wrong with that. But offensively I thought we were a better ball club. When we got a faster catcher it had maybe a little bit more pop.
Speaker 2:But coming to Pittsburgh and I got to ask that how are you going to replace Tome?
Speaker 1:Nobody's going to replace him. I'm me. I'm going to be me. I'm going to do my best.
Speaker 2:Well, let me ask you though Did you know how popular he was in Pittsburgh? Oh yeah, even before you got him, oh yeah. I mean he was forever.
Speaker 1:He was the only representative to the All-Star team yeah, yeah. You, you know whatever, speaking of a guy that's talking about yeah, there's a knee down. Yeah, well, I'll tell you this he and benito santiago had their knees down, except when people are on base, or if there was two strikes, then they were in conventional okay catching mode, but everybody goes. Well, they caught with one knee down?
Speaker 2:yes, they did, but only with, uh, you know, with less than two strikes and with uh, without anybody on base. So you, know, but that's uh, that's a compromise, that's, that's a good one I like that compromise.
Speaker 3:There's guys doing that.
Speaker 2:Now you know what that isn't that that to me makes a little more sense.
Speaker 1:That to me isn't a bad thing yeah, you know, as long as you're not developing bad habits with you receiving and I've got no issues with it. I was always comfortable just doing what I did 100%.
Speaker 2:You know, so I wasn't ever comfortable on one knee.
Speaker 1:I didn't get comfortable to one knee until I was like 52 years old in fantasy camp.
Speaker 2:When I couldn't get it to my regular stance yeah let's just sit down here when I couldn't get it to my regular stand. So how quickly did you find out that you became because I think it was pretty quick really a folk hero in Pittsburgh? It did not take long, without disrespecting Tony Pena, for them to forget him and fall in love with Mike Spanky.
Speaker 1:LaValliere. Well, you know what I think, just my work ethic. Yeah, I had to play 100 balls to the wall every game because I always felt that I was the least talented guy physically at the ballpark that day on the field so I mindset or did you really believe that?
Speaker 1:and I and I I believed that yeah I wasn't as talented, but I also thought that that was an advantage that people wouldn't look at me like, oh gee, whiz, I need to bear down. I thought that was an advantage and I played that as an advantage they also loved your personality though and it's easy.
Speaker 2:Reporters and stuff.
Speaker 1:You're good to me because you know what?
Speaker 2:I'm a you're a people person, I'm a carry a lunch pail kind of guy yeah, yeah, you know I'm a bearish shot guy. I mean, that's why you're made for Pittsburgh. That's what Pittsburgh was all about. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know. So that was you know, something that you know. If there was a match made me to go to Pittsburgh, you think about the most popular catchers over the several decades?
Speaker 2:Smokey Smokey Burgess, sangy Manny Sangy and Spanky Smokey Sangy Spanky Three of the most popular catchers in the history of the Pirates Like a chevelle of catchers.
Speaker 3:Sss.
Speaker 2:You go there in 1987. Your first full year of the Pirates. You win a gold glove.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you this and not too many people remember this, but I obviously do my first throw is the second game of the season.
Speaker 2:John Tudor started for the Cardinals, so Junior Ortiz started Of all things, you're playing against the Cardinals, right? How wild is that?
Speaker 1:The second game Danny Cox is throwing for them. I know, danny, I caught him, so I'm playing. Bob kipper walks vince coleman to lead off the game now I'm going off vince coleman I've seen vince wreak havoc right so
Speaker 1:kip just barely moves. There goes vince. I catch the ball and, and he's vince is almost already like dusting himself off and I go and I'm gonna hold the ball and my arm just doesn't stop. The ball comes out of my hand and it goes, lands on the back of the mound and rolls on the turf and doesn't make second base.
Speaker 2:Get out of here. That was my first throw. That was my first throw as a pirate.
Speaker 1:You think I heard any boos oh.
Speaker 2:We got you for banging it. Oh no, Are you kidding?
Speaker 1:me. He doesn't want to go, and so I end up. Yeah, so it's not how you start, it's how you finish.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's wild. Yeah, your first throw. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 1:Oh god, you want to talk about, you know, wanting to have a shovel and dig a hole and jump in right there, my gosh, oh and I don't, I don't think I don't think I took my mask off. Uh, even my first at bat. I'm so embarrassed. I think I went up to the plate with my mask unbelievable.
Speaker 2:So that's 87. Uh, you mentioned kipper, brian fisher, big daddy rick russell, doug drabick, part of that staff, mike dunn, who was part of that trade, you and lavalier you. And uh, vance like and dunn was like the sporting news rookie of the year that year too. And then jim got your closer 88. Talk about that 88 year. Well, when did it happen? What? 88, we kind of like it's just a bad luck well, you know what?
Speaker 1:the, the mets were fabulous. Yeah, I mean we really weren't as good as them. And, um, you know we, you know we played good brand of baseball, played good defense, we threw strikes, we did a lot of good things, but we didn't have the, the, the horses to win that race.
Speaker 1:The, the, the mets were still too good and they, they had everything you know they just, they were just that good, um, but we got a taste of what it's going to take to be good and that was something that you know, jumping off, we had a lot of after that season going into 89. A lot of hope, a promise of okay. Now we've been together a few years here, you know we're going to contend this year.
Speaker 2:And then we all got hurt. Who was the first that got hurt? Was you?
Speaker 1:I think it was Sid. Was that Sid? Sid got hurt first. This is 89 or 89? 89. It's all the hope going into 89. Sid getting hurt for the first couple weeks and then not long after you get out, yeah. Sid and I had surgery the same day at Passavant Hospital. Same day. Well, yeah, I went up to visit him he was.
Speaker 1:He didn't take to the anesthesia as good as me, because um I'm pretty good at it, so, but uh, so so I went to try to pop him up a little bit, and and uh, I ended up missing a little over three months. And then andy hurt what was your surgery I had a torn ACL and partially torn MCL Three months.
Speaker 2:Who was it? Who was it? He wasn't at the plate, it was Rex Hudler. That's right, and to this day, if I see him, I'll kill him. So you think it was a dirty play? It was a dirty play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he came in diving knees to knees.
Speaker 2:It was not a slide. Did he hit you on the side? It was a takeout.
Speaker 1:No, hit me straight. I was in perfect position.
Speaker 3:So that's why they hit you on the side. Hit me straight.
Speaker 1:And it went down and my knee was like this. So the bottom of my knee was touching the ground. That's not good. If you're wondering, yeah, the bottom of my back of my knee was touching the ground and I was still up. So yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:What was the play Spanky? What was the play? Describe what happened Hudlers at second. Where was the hit? They said I think it might have been to Andy To.
Speaker 1:Andy and center, threw it home. I catch it. Go to make. The tag Takes out my knee. Gosh, is it like bang, bang, yeah and um it? It ticked me off because the umpire called them safe and usually, if there's contact at home plate at all, you know your catcher's going to get the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and jim quick was the umpire and I told him about that afterwards I said you know what every ball in the dirt, I will get out of the way and you will wear that. Just because of that play, I was pissed.
Speaker 2:Well, so now you come back, come back, and now it's 90.
Speaker 1:In record time by the way yeah an unbelievable recovery and then 90,.
Speaker 2:Do you guys go into spring training and think we got a really good shot here? Absolutely, you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it was basically a continuation, file 89,. You know, it was just too many injuries for us to contend Couldn't overcome, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then it was just like you know, 90? All right, we're here. You know, made a couple more, sid and Leland made a couple more acquisitions and that's like you know, filled a couple holes. And then it was like you know what, we got a good ball club here, filled a couple holes and then it was like you know what, we got a good ball club here and just seeing 24 run out to left field every night made us a better team. That was special, huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Greatest player you ever saw. The best player ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, none bar none.
Speaker 3:From the gate, From the gate right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just unbelievable.
Speaker 2:It's a shame that what's taking place.
Speaker 1:You know, should it be in the Hall of Fame? Hey, you know what, if everybody in the Hall of Fame was milking cookies, okay, then I'd say he doesn't belong there's a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame that were, you know, red juice and amphetamines in order to take the field. You know what's a performance enhancing drug, so you know what Barry didn't help himself being as caustic as he was to everybody.
Speaker 2:I did a lot of crossword puzzles. Just before doing the show. He did that To bone up. I've got it here on my phone. So, spanky, which is the best of the three-division title teams? 90-91-92?
Speaker 1:um I want to say 91. We were probably why? Why best team? Uh, we had a taste in 90 and I think we're a little strong. I like that word, he uses taste get the taste?
Speaker 3:yeah, because, you get that taste, you want more. You know it's like eating a lazy potato chip you can't just have one yeah, yeah yeah, I think, I think uh, 91.
Speaker 1:I think we're overall a better ball club did, but uh, you know you run into the Reds, you know, and you know, it's just that team was stacked. And the Braves. I mean you get the Braves and the Reds and you know everybody was, you know they were, everybody was good.
Speaker 2:In the NLCS in 92, when Waukee pitches that complete game and you're going down to Atlanta but still down. Do you guys confident at that point?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Because it's almost like you're unstoppable Until.
Speaker 1:Randy March called Sid safe. I knew we were going to win.
Speaker 2:He was safe, wasn't he? No, really, do you think if replay?
Speaker 3:Whenever I do games for ESPN, he was 100%.
Speaker 2:Have you broken it down Like Zabruder, filmed it and looked at.
Speaker 1:There wasn't enough angles.
Speaker 2:It would be inconclusive.
Speaker 1:I had my tech guys with ESPN look at it and it's inconclusive. But when you bend leg slide, your front foot is up in the air. Because if it's down, you're going to catch a spike.
Speaker 2:And break your ankle. Okay.
Speaker 1:Sid says he's safe. Umpire said he's safe. That's what the call was. But I still believe that I got that back leg before.
Speaker 2:It was an unbelievable attempt I was able to actually he's a big guy.
Speaker 3:It was a heck of a play by LaVallia too. He's leaning back. That leg's going to go up.
Speaker 2:What's really weird about sports, and baseball in particular? When guys make great plays, unless the out is called, it's like forgotten 100, but the play is. It's an unbelievable catch and tag by lavalier. What do you think about the throw from bonds? He gets criticized so much for it, bar.
Speaker 1:Barry never possessed a great arm. Yeah, you know if there was any thing to his game that wasn't as good as everything else.
Speaker 2:It was his arm. It was okay. It was a very average arm.
Speaker 1:So you know and everybody likes to put the blame on Barry there's a lot of things in that ballgame that we could have added on a run here a run there. Everybody looks at that one play because that was the end. But we had chances earlier in that ballgame to win the game back then you can win games in the third and fourth inning it's not always the ninth.
Speaker 2:It's really unfair to put the blame on Stan or Barry or anybody, Because Melinda was throwing some strikes that weren't being called right.
Speaker 1:Well, I had some issues with Randy Marsh. Were you saying stuff to Marsh, by the way? Yeah, I was All polite, though, right, let's say I wasn't as polite. I wasn't one of those guys that would bury an umpire. Yeah, yeah I was. I was, but in the heat of the moment of that you know it's a randy that's a strike, you know, and I may have had a adjective or two, um, you know, besides that, um, it was a combination of a number of things that went wrong.
Speaker 2:yeah, and and it just.
Speaker 1:You know, now you can look back. It's like it wasn't meant to be, but you know what it's. Just I don't know if anything could have been changed or if anybody would have changed anything.
Speaker 2:You know it. Just it didn't work. How tough was the clubhouse afterward?
Speaker 1:Oh, I was literally crying.
Speaker 2:You can hear the tears.
Speaker 1:I don't pretend the care level was at high. Oh my gosh, it was unbelievable the devastation.
Speaker 2:I don't pretend, the whole city shrunk To ever have been in that position.
Speaker 1:But if anybody's seen Saving Private Ryan at the end, whenever the tank is shooting, everything and everything goes quiet and he can't hear anything. That's what it felt like.
Speaker 2:It was a that's silent.
Speaker 1:It was a numbing feeling of wow, I can't believe this. That's it. Yeah, it was. It was surreal, it really was. It was uh, yeah, I didn't get pissed off until after. I was so numb to start with.
Speaker 2:And it just was.
Speaker 1:I didn't watch the replay, for I want to say a good 15 years, Really Wow. It was the lowest point of my career.
Speaker 2:And then how about 93? How hard was that? I mean, I know, it didn't end well. Well, you know what? And then how about 93? How?
Speaker 1:hard, was that? Yeah, it was very hard.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know it was, it didn't end well.
Speaker 1:Well you know what being released on Easter Sunday. No, yeah, it's a little bit. You know, they were sending a message, I think.
Speaker 2:I was the player rep and I didn't have too many good things to say.
Speaker 3:Ted Simmons was the general manager Because 93 is right before it all kicked off, right when it was all kicking off 93?.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with the strike and everything.
Speaker 3:It was 94. 94 was the strike.
Speaker 2:But there was rumbling going on.
Speaker 1:A lot of it was. You guys were very outspoken. We had lost, you know, Bonoken we had lost. Bonilla. We had lost Bonds, we were losing guys and they were misrepresenting their offers in public. To Doug Drabeck Dougie and I have been great friends. We've got to talk about the relationship and so Dougie and I have been great friends.
Speaker 1:So I knew every little bit of that negotiations and what the pirates management was saying to the public was nowhere near what they were offering him. And Dougie was. He's much more of a professional than I am and I'm sticking up for my picture, yeah.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I says you know, this is crap You're, you're giving this guy a bad name. You know this guy wants nothing more than to stay here.
Speaker 2:And you're not even coming close. You're making it look like he wants so much money. Yeah, that he's greedy and he doesn't want to be in.
Speaker 3:Pittsburgh, and that's not fair and that puts a huge divide in that clubhouse, yeah Between front office.
Speaker 1:So I was outspoken about it and I believe ultimately that's why they released me.
Speaker 2:Well, something happened because they ended up paying the balance of that contract too. So I mean, obviously there was something about that. It was a message. What do you mean? The balance of?
Speaker 3:the contract.
Speaker 1:I mean, I had signed a three-year deal and I played one year on that deal and they released you. And then the last two years, know they?
Speaker 3:they basically, uh, ate it yeah, they're definitely, yeah, yeah, definitely. So that was you know and you know it was.
Speaker 1:It was very difficult, yeah, you know, because you know I not only you know love the organization, you know, but the city and you know, really I wanted to end my career as a pirate you know.
Speaker 2:So it was very, very difficult um, I was I mean just ripped at at ted simon at ted yeah, and and uh I saw him about two years ago, three years ago at cardinal fantasy camp, had you spoken, and I hadn't talked to him since no kidding and and he came to me because you probably want to kill me, don't you wow?
Speaker 1:I said you're absolutely right and we had a chat and productive, and I found out what it was all about and we hugged no kidding yeah, I mean I 30 years later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was probably felt good, didn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, it did. You know it was a burden, um, and and it's anybody to have that kind of animosity towards somebody, it just it's not, it's not good, yeah, it's not healthy.
Speaker 2:So simmons. And so simmons claims it was not well he was doing. Yeah, it was basically you know. He was told.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know and that and that's you know that was good enough for me, yeah, and you know what that was. You know that was good enough for me, yeah, and you know what that was. You know something that you know. I wish I would have known and handled it better. But I was a bitter guy to Ted Simmons, you know, and never saw him again until said about three years ago.
Speaker 2:Well, not to stir anything up again, but it was still Simmons who misrepresented what Drabik wanted. I mean, there's no doubt about that. Simmons didn't have to do that. Well, you know what he didn't have to.
Speaker 1:There was a lot more than you know. Ted was the fall guy but there was a guy that was the president of the club Mark Sauer sour that was calling a lot of shots yeah his last name says it all, then yeah, so it's making it. Yeah, that's you know if he wants to come down spring training, I'll put the gear on. We'll play at the plate mark you want I want.
Speaker 2:I'm a sour fan. Sour hired me, so I can't say anything about sour, but anyway. So you go to the white socks now and you play for gene lamont, yeah that was great.
Speaker 1:Your third great manager, geno, was awesome.
Speaker 2:Who had been the longtime coach of Jim Leland.
Speaker 1:Yes, different temperament than Leland, but a great baseball mind. He was very quiet and he didn't come across. He didn't get the credit for being the baseball guy that he was yeah absolutely fabulous he was very, very good, you know, but again, his temperament well, he wasn't.
Speaker 2:He wasn't as good with the media as they wanted him to be. Yeah, I think right, yeah and uh that was a very comfortable feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but I was. I was the backup. Catcherarko was the number one guy, karko.
Speaker 2:Weiss so.
Speaker 1:I played once a week, once every couple weeks, which was, you know I didn't like it, but it is what it was. Yeah, and I tried to do my best you know to whenever I get in there, just be your best.
Speaker 3:Yeah, try to win that ballgame. Yeah, and you have a good baseball mind I mean a great baseball mind in my, in my opinion, and I learned a lot from you as a young buck and continue to learn. But, like, did you spend a lot of time with those guys as a kid? Like I took a lot of pride in trying to be around the race here, just of the world that, uh, jeff bannister's clint hurdles and I'd be, especially when I didn't play. I try to be as close to him as possible, hear kind of what's going on, play the game of my mind with them. I feel like you did a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a you know whenever I went over to the white spots you know, I hadn't caught any of the guys, the talent. I mean jack mcdowell, alex fernandez, jason beret, wilson alvarez holy.
Speaker 3:I mean, these are just. I didn't know that this is, you know.
Speaker 1:First, time that I was able to, you know, basically put a one down without crossing my fingers. Here you go Give me your best fastball, because every one of those guys had legit cheese Like thunder, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:I mean, but it was spent a lot of time back in the day. We spent a lot of time in the locker room together, talking before, after, I mean with the white socks, and we were cigar smokers. So before, like after batting practice, we'd light up in the locker room right and then all of a sudden be like infield 10 minutes. Ah crap, put out your cigar well, take infield, isn't that beautiful? Yeah, so I mean you know and then after the game was the same kind of thing you know.
Speaker 1:But I get to know and I think that's a big part of it is your relationship with your pitching staff, because when those guys know that you care, they're going to give you everything and that's a big thing. If they think that you don't care and you're only thinking about your stats, your offense, then they're going to kind of not give it the best, yeah, not get the best out of it. But I, you know, I felt that you know, the next day in the paper, never had an L, lost LaValliere, but I felt like I was part of that. You know, if we get the L, I was part of that and I think I came across to my pitching staffs like they knew that. And that's where you know, building that, you know, that kind of trust, you know, was a huge, huge thing.
Speaker 2:How about your relationship with Bob Walk?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I want to talk about the call from the booth.
Speaker 2:Explain because Walkie loves to tell the story. Okay, so.
Speaker 1:I've got more Walkie stories, stories, I'm sure. Um, we are here to hear them, yeah, so, uh, back in 89, whenever I was hurt, um, I used to sit up on the fourth level and, um, maybe drink beer and maybe eat hot dogs.
Speaker 2:Uh, nothing confirmed. Nothing confirmed, yeah, um, maybe not confirmed, maybe not.
Speaker 1:But uh, you know, I told walkie I says it's amazing because you sit up there, you see the whole field, you know from up there what a great vantage point. I says you know, walkie, if you ever get stuck, look up there, right, just look up there. So kevin mitchell's up at the plate and walkie throws him a curveball. He hits it nine miles foul at three rivers Right. And so Waukee's on the mound and he's like this and there's like the light bulb went off.
Speaker 2:And he looks up, he remembers Wait a minute, spanky's up there.
Speaker 1:I about fall out of the booth. I'm yelling hook him again, hook him again. He hooks him again. He pops it up, waukee walks off and gets his cap. That is the greatest thing of all time, I guess.
Speaker 2:I get it. He realizes he's all bummed out, doesn't know what to do. Uh-oh, lavalliere's up there spanking. Could you imagine him just going? Yeah, his head was down and you could see, because when Wacky fought a lot smoke yeah, it was exactly like that His head was down.
Speaker 1:And you could see the wheels just spinning, because when Wacky fought, a lot smoke came out of his ears, so it was smoking. That still happens and I'm going. Oh my God, I can help him here. I know I can and just like that he looked up and I just like I may have spilled a hot dog, but I fell out and whenever, just like I may have spilled a hundred but I felt, fell out and and whenever you did it, oh my god it was, it was one of the greatest moments.
Speaker 1:That's so tremendous so much fun. Oh my gosh, what a blast, yeah, I'll tell you what yeah so much fun. One of many, oh, whirlybird stories we Whirlybird.
Speaker 2:We have to have another show with Spanky just talking Whirlybird stories.
Speaker 3:I'll get me and Walkie together and Drebeck.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and Drebeck, that's what we're going to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, him and Drebeck at Fantasy Camp are like two legends walking around. Yes, they're still going out. When?
Speaker 2:Walkie comes down. We've going to be coming back last week. We're going to have you down.
Speaker 1:You two just spin tails well, I'll check my social schedule yeah, yeah, you might be.
Speaker 2:Uh, you're traveling around the world these days. You are a world traveler. Yeah, well, you know what?
Speaker 1:not getting any younger, yeah, yeah, so welcome to the club if I don't go now. Yeah, understand, you know what the wheelchairs just don't go really good on the beach, so so thank you Enjoy while I can.
Speaker 2:Spanky. You said when you sat down here with us so many people have said your favorite podcast and you are a podcast aficionado. One of the first things he said was my favorite podcast is Hold.
Speaker 3:My, he was going like this Especially catchers, catchers and pitchers Hold my Cutter.
Speaker 2:They love Hold my Cutter.
Speaker 1:You know. So, yeah, I got to show up. I got stogies, I got the torch, you got the torch, we got the catchers.
Speaker 3:You set the setup. I mean you know what Anesthesia.
Speaker 1:Anesthesia. This podcast was made for me and you Best, cutter you ever caught real quick.
Speaker 1:Alex Fernandez oh nice, it actually had noise. It screamed, it said noise. Yeah, it was, it had noise, it was devastating. But the best one I've seen was Mariano. Yeah, because we get a report right and this is his rookie year and he comes up in September and at the time he was starving Right, and so we get the report. You know sinker slider guy All right. So Tim Raines first, that bat comes back. He's got about eight inches of his handle left after he snaps. It's now a pencil Right. Joey Corr is up next. He's got less, and joey being the fired up little guy, yeah, yeah, and he goes sinker slayer, my ass, this guy's got a cutter from hell. Right, tell that scout that he can. Yeah, he needs a new job. But yeah, alex Fernandez, stuff-wise I love Dougie and Dougie had great stuff, but for pure four pitches Alex was one of the best.
Speaker 3:I'm surprised that he never got a sigh.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, heck man, we're going to give you an MVP for one of the top guests on Hold my Cutter Cheers Legend.
Speaker 1:Fellas, he's a cutter Always available.
Speaker 2:Make sure Spanky always tells us, make sure you tell your viewers, your listeners, like and subscribe and send the questions on anything To Spanky. To Spanky.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm single ladies out there, oh there you go.
Speaker 2:It's called a plug, that's a plug. Go get spanky. Yeah, the plug didn't take hold my cutter, thank you.
