The Accidental Entrepreneurs
Two different innovators that stumbled on ideas in the veterinary field, built a company, then sold for millions........ without having any idea what they were doing.
Each week, Ira and Stacee will spin the wheel of start-up questions and share the knowledge they wish they had back then.
The Accidental Entrepreneurs
E6: Who were some of the most critical people in your journey?
This week, Ira tells us the story of his son being "scientist of the week" for his school and his quest to analyze the absorbency of paper towels —tackling variables, crunching numbers, and learning that the smallest details can make the biggest impact.
The question today is "Who were some of the most critical people in your journey?"
Ira and Stacee will share the stories of Dan and Mihailo, and their undeniable influence on technology and leadership in sculpting a business's destiny. Dan's flair for customer experience and design that brought a new life to the product, inviting the end-user into the development loop. Mihailo, the engineer with a knack for the possible, who pushed boundaries between creation and execution.
Our favorite tips this week:
Ira: "Just do experiments" and the importance of getting clarity on what you are doing
Stacee: A book "Product Led Onboarding" by Ramli John that teaches you how to turn your customer into super Mario
Hello and welcome. I am Ira Gordon and, along with Stacee Santi, the host of the Accidental Entrepreneurs Podcast. We each previously founded successful companies. Along the way, we became business owners and eventually sold those businesses despite us having no real background in business or ever even planning to become entrepreneurs. In other words, we did this all despite originally having no idea what we were doing or getting ourselves into. In each episode of this podcast, we will share stories and tips from our journey and we'll answer a randomly chosen question about our experience. Let's jump right into the show. How are you doing today, Stacee?
Stacee:Doing pretty good. How are you?
Ira:I am doing great.
Stacee:Well, what's new over there?
Ira:What is new? Well, so this is a little bit exciting, at least for a big science nerd like me. But my older son is 11 years old. In a few weeks he is going to be what they call the scientist of the week in his class and, as someone that spent at least five years acting as a scientist, I got a little bit excited about this.
Ira:He's basically got to do a science project. He has gotten in his mind that he wants to be on this crusade, that the school paper towels really suck and they should have better paper towels.
Stacee:Do they have those really flimsy kind that barely soak up anything?
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background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">paper</span><span data-v-ddf6351a="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="6" data-eindex="34" data-key="634 102. 11" style="--tw-border-spacing-x:--tw-border-spacing-y:--tw-translate-x:--tw-translate-y:--tw-rotate:--tw-skew-x:--tw-skew-y: 0;--tw-scale-x:--tw-scale-y: 1;--tw-pan-x:--tw-pan-y:--tw-pinch-zoom:;--tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity;--tw-ordinal:--tw-slashed-zero:--tw-numeric-figure:--tw-numeric-spacing:--tw-numeric-fraction:--tw-ring-inset:;--tw-ring-offset-width: 0px;--tw-ring-offset-color:#fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5);--tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 shadow-colored:--tw-shadow-colored: 0 0#0000;--tw-blur:--tw-brightness:--tw-contrast:--tw-grayscale:--tw-hue-rotate:--tw-invert:--tw-saturate:--tw-sepia:--tw-drop-shadow:--tw-backdrop-blur:--tw-backdrop-brightness:--tw-backdrop-contrast:--tw-backdrop-grayscale:--tw-backdrop-hue-rotate:--tw-backdrop-invert:--tw-backdrop-opacity:--tw-backdrop-saturate:--tw-backdrop-sepia:; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">that</span><span data-v-ddf6351a="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="6" data-eindex="36" data-key="636 102. 851" style="--tw-border-spacing-x:--tw-border-spacing-y:--tw-translate-x:--tw-translate-y:--tw-rotate:--tw-skew-x:--tw-skew-y: 0;--tw-scale-x:--tw-scale-y: 1;--tw-pan-x:--tw-pan-y:--tw-pinch-zoom:;--tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity;--tw-ordinal:--tw-slashed-zero:--tw-numeric-figure:--tw-numeric-spacing:--tw-numeric-fraction:--tw-ring-inset:;--tw-ring-offset-width: 0px;--tw-ring-offset-color:#fff; 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background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">would</span><span data-v-ddf6351a="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="6" data-eindex="40" data-key="640 103. 092" style="--tw-border-spacing-x:--tw-border-spacing-y:--tw-translate-x:--tw-translate-y:--tw-rotate:--tw-skew-x:--tw-skew-y: 0;--tw-scale-x:--tw-scale-y: 1;--tw-pan-x:--tw-pan-y:--tw-pinch-zoom:;--tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity;--tw-ordinal:--tw-slashed-zero:--tw-numeric-figure:--tw-numeric-spacing:--tw-numeric-fraction:--tw-ring-inset:;--tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; shadow: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: shadow-colored:; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">in</span><span data-v-ddf6351a="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="6" data-eindex="44" data-key="644 103. 493" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; tw-hue-rotate: weekend and he essentially measured how much water is absorbed by the different paper towels and he set up like a scientific design where he would pour the same amount of water in a tray on each of the paper towels. He'd weigh the saturate: I told him that he needed to calculate the standard deviation of his triple kit experiments. She thought that was a little bit much for an 11 year old scientist, and I'm sure she was right. So we settled
Ira:But there's also, surprisingly, a number of potentially confounding factors that we talked about. So a sheet of each paper towel is not exactly the same size depending on the type of paper towel you're using. The weight of that sheet is not necessarily exactly the same, as we found out as well. And so, in addition to calculating how much water each of the paper towels absorb, we calculated how much they absorb per area, how much they absorb per weight of towel and they don't all cost the same either, right? And so we also ended up calculating how much water does absorb for every cent or every dollar of paper towel essentially. But he struggled because he doesn't know the cost of the school paper towels, he just knows that. Well, I don't want to give away the results, but not to keep everyone in suspense they absorb way less water, it's not even close. So the commercial paper towels, for every sheet I think they absorbed like between 20 and 30 milliliters, depending on the brand, and the school ones absorbed eight.
Ira:milliliters per equivalent sheet essentially, and so he's pretty excited about the data and he has emailed, like the custodial team at the school, to try to figure out how much they spend on a roll and how much towel comes on a roll, so that we can try to calculate the cost and hopefully demonstrate what his hypothesis is, which is that, yeah, the school paper towels are a complete waste.
Stacee:That is really interesting. I mean, I'm with him. I I hate those kind of paper towels because then the you take like in a public bathroom, they'll have those, and then the trash can's overflowing all the time because you have to use four or five to dry your hands.
Ira:Yeah, I mean, don't get me started on the school toilet paper either.
Stacee:Oh, yeah, maybe we should add a part to our podcast at the end where we come up with an idea, a problem that needs solving in the world.
Ira:There we go.
Stacee:Congratulations to your son that keep us posted, because we all want to know what paper towels should we be buying. Is it bounty? Is it Viva? What is it? Do you know?
Ira:I do so so f want the paper towel with the most absorbance per surface area Of the towels that we tested, which was only four we did not go on an exhaustive search of all actually Viva was the winner of absorbance per first-wear foot, and and if you Want the most absorbent percent that that you had spanned, then it was the Kirkland signature Costco paper towel.
Stacee:Okay, okay, great. That's really interesting, and we're all gonna be out there making a purchase, alright? Well, it's time to spin the wheel and get our question of the day. So are you ready?
Ira:always.
Stacee:All right, here we go. The question is who were some of the most critical people in your dream?
Ira:There are so many that it is hard to pinpoint. So I Feel like I'm not going to talk about the obvious people. So the obvious people would be my partners and some of our major mentors, but I I want to talk about Dan. So we met Dan probably Five, six years into our journey. We had actually hired somebody to help us with with at sort of the executive level in an interim position and, and that person didn't work out for a variety of reasons, but one of the things that he did and his most lasting contribution to the business was he introduced us to Dan, and Dan was introduced to us in the context of somebody that had helped him at a at a different company with some of their sort of technology things, and we had an outstanding head of technology but we were sort of struggling to translate technology into, you know, the beautiful product that we wanted it to be at the speed that we wanted to build, all the things that we wanted to build, and so we brought Dan on to sort of help us think through and sort through that with our team.
Ira:But as we started working with Dan we realized one he's an awesome guy and we really liked talking to him and working with him and he just had this really great sense of essentially customer experience and kind of front-end graphic design and all those things. And After we had sort of initially worked with him to just sort of help with Thinking through our technology roadmap and our schedule, we ended up bringing Dan on to essentially be sort of our head of customer experience and graphic design and and Dan totally ran with it. He started doing all the really important stuff like having regular meetings with our customers and our potential customers, and he would come to this AdMus symposium and schedule these focus groups with a bunch of ed students and talk to them about you know, what is it that you know you want and would you find something like this to be a little bit helpful or a lot helpful? And he'd show them something and say, what do you think of this? Do you like it or, you know, not really. And Really helped to just kind of transform our company from one that was driven from this idea of well, we think this would be really cool, so let's build it and let's hope people like it.
Ira:And we did pretty well with that strategy I think we guessed right most of the time to to one that was really focused on. Let's find out what it is. You know, our customers actually want, what it is that they like about what we have, what it is that they like about what we might build, and let's let's focus on those things, right. And so that was a surprise that we ever sort of came across Dan and we ended up kind of fitting him into a role that was different than what he thought he was coming to help us with, but he was really quite influential in Helping to reshape our product and our company in a customer focused way, and I thought that was, you know, extremely helpful. How about you, stacy, who was a critical influence on your business and you?
Stacee:I feel like this is an Academy Award situation where I have a million people I would like to mention and thank People like Karyn and Sam and Linda and Katelyn. There's just a bunch of people that made a difference, but the one I'm going to pick out here that I think probably I couldn't have done what I did without them is Mihailo, my engineer that I met randomly and it just turns out that he had the same kind of we can do it mindset. In fact, he always said, why not? I'd say I would like to do this, I would like to do that, and he'd say why not? And I needed somebody like that to help me be passionate about my vision and to bring knowledge to the table that I had none of.
Stacee:And he was a magical wizard in that he could build things, encode them and make them come up on your phone or your computer, and he was able to bring more ideas to the table. And I follow a lot of businesses this you know writings by Marty Kagan and other people that are always talking about how engineers aren't leveraged in companies and the ideas and will come from the leadership team, and then the engineers will just be like a feature team where you just build this feature, build that feature, and I never could relate to that because I guess I was just fortunate in my setup that I didn't know enough to know how to do that. But Mihailo was able to bring creativity, ideas and innovation to the product that I didn't even know about, so we together could co-create and I don't know if I could have gotten that just anywhere.
Ira:Yeah, that's great. I think working with technology people is. For me it's like one of the most fun things, Like they're so knowledgeable, smart and the right ones are creative that they can help tremendously. I think a challenge is they need to be able to explain sometimes really fundamental basics to idiots like me in terms that I can actually understand. But that's fun too, you know, to have them realize like, oh my gosh, like you don't even really know how servers were and how data duplication and those kinds of things work at the most fundamental level. So, having those conversations, learning about those things with the technology guys, but, even more importantly, as you said, actually leaning on them as creative thought partners on a product, as opposed to, oh, I need to tell them what to build and they're going to try to build it is. I think that's the difference between a B team and an A team, essentially, when you think about a technology product.
Stacee:Did you see that the founder of Airbnb just did an interview and he was kind of a hot topic, I think where he was basically recommending that companies go back to the command and control mindset, for where the leader will, the CEO, or the CEO will control all the decision making and will basically bless or kill ideas at the engineer level. And he's just saying that when you get so big of a company and I see this side when you get so big of a company, the decision making slows down tremendously. And his answer is that there's one person, him, that will dictate the roadmap and dictate the features, and there's a lot of you know perspectives on that for sure. I don't know what the answer is, but I am just. My personal experience is I needed other people to help me make the decision.
Ira:I think there was a size component of that problem. I think I have probably enjoyed the most working when a company is at the size of no more than 15 or so people. I think when you're that size or smaller, everybody can have a voice and everybody can contribute to decisions. Once you get to that 30, 50, 70 people size, you can't really know everybody and have a closer relationship with everybody and have that level of communication and discussion with everybody. I think that's when it gets complicated to have teams of decision makers and how do you prevent from slowing down but still allow people to do things creatively and make their own decisions? I think it gets really hard. I would love to disagree with the sentiment that those types of sizes and much larger when you need to have a much more tightly command and control CEO deciding everything. I do think that it gets a lot more complicated at those bigger sizes.
Stacee:Definitely. I noticed that too. I think it's so important that the CEO, regardless of the size of the company, is super clear on where you're going. We are going over there to that hill or mountain to climb. This is what I want at the end. This is my vision is when we're done, our project is going to do A, b and C. You're very clear so you can evangelize this vision. When the CEO is wishy-washy or unsure of where you're going, that's when I think things start to dismantle.
Ira:Think, having clarity in that vision and what are the things that you want people to be thinking about and how they should prioritize those things as they make decisions, is absolutely critical. And then I think having people feel empowered, that they are allowed to make mistakes as long as they make those mistakes because they were thinking about the priorities that you've laid out can then put people in the position where they should feel comfortable asking for forgiveness, rather than permission, for every single decision that they make. You really can't have people seek approval for every decision that they make, or else you're going to move way too slow.
Stacee:Yeah, and you just have a team of monkeys instead of professionals.
Ira:Absolutely. I mean people need to feel empowered to do what they need to do and to feel like they matter.
Stacee:Yeah, totally. Now we're at the part of the show where we're going to share a favorite tool, a favorite book, a favorite quote. It's been critical in your journey.
Ira:I'll go first. I want to share a mentor of mine that was the principal investigator, the head of the laboratory that I worked in when I was a postdoctoral fellow at the National Cancer Institute. His name was Dr Camphausen. He ran the radiation oncology branch there and I started as essentially a junior researcher postdoctoral fellow that had no idea what I was doing. When I got to the lab the guy would go to work and I would see everybody doing experiments and I'd go around and I'd talk about what they're doing and their projects and I would try to think about what project is it that I want to do? And was reading articles and kind of having a hard time. A day would go by and be like man, I don't feel like I did anything today. It wasn't that I wasn't trying or I wasn't spending time on working, but it wasn't really accomplishing anything.
Ira:After probably a week of working on this I went to talk to Dr Camphausen and he's like how's it going? I'm learning a lot, I'm having fun and what everybody is doing is great, but I don't know. I just feel like I'm not Alright, like making progress and really doing anything, and like what do you think I should do? And he says to me I think you should do experiments. And I was like but like what experiments? I haven't really figured out what project I want to be working on, what disease I want to be working on, and so I don't really know where to start. And he said just do experiments.
Ira:And so I went down to the lab and I just like I was like all right, like I'm going to start growing up some cancer cells and I'm going to irradiate them Cause that's what we sort of did in the lab and I'm going to start doing some experiments, you know, counting cells and looking at pathways and looking at various measures.
Ira:And he was totally right. Like once you start doing experiments, you start noticing things and you start asking questions and you start thinking about you know why did this happen? Right, and I thought, as I think much of the great advice I've been giving it, like when I was told to me I was like I don't understand, like that seems sort of basic and obvious. But I think that sort of advice of like you don't need to overthink everything, like just start doing things and that's going to give you questions, give you direction and give you sort of purpose, is really applicable not just to the laboratory but to life as a whole and certainly to entrepreneurship. Right Like and I think my personality is one of a thinker and sometimes an overthinker, and so sort of reminding myself of that advice from Dr Camphausen to just do experiments is something that you know I find to be really helpful.
Stacee:Oh, I love that. That's really seems so basic and simple, but so profound at the same time.
Ira:Yeah, how about you Stacee?
Stacee:I would like to share a book that changed the trajectory of my customer experience. In my customer journey, we were growing really quickly and in the beginning it's not that hard, honestly, because there's a limited amount of customers and you can relate to them and communicate with them, even through an email. But as we were starting to grow the platform and we were trying to educate people and keep customers new customers engaged, we were having some problems. Our product was so robust that it was overwhelming to teach a customer how to use it, and we definitely had some strong opinions on what features were the best and how you needed to use them. But my right hand man, right hand woman, Karen Echola she actually listened to this webinar randomly. I don't even know how she got to learn about this webinar. She just took it over lunch one day and it was this guy named Romley John and his book is called "Product-led Onboarding- How- -ow to Turn New Users into Lifelong Customers and he was doing this show, this webinar, and in it he was talking about your customer is like Mario and your product is the flower or your service, and when Mario gets the flower, he becomes Super Mario and he can do anything. And you need to think about that when you're building your products and you need to be really clear on what you are offering as the flower and what it is, more importantly, that your customer wants to do. Because just because you think you know what your customer should be doing, or you think you know this, you're so wrong and a lot of times because your customer is a unique person that has their own challenges and they came to you or they are meeting with you because they're looking for help with their specific problem.
Stacee:So for us it might not have been. You know you need to keep more loyalty and we have this great loyalty program. It might have been. My phone won't stop ringing and we're missing calls left and right and I need a way to let people communicate with us better to book appointments. So if you don't know and you don't ask and you don't set that customer up for success, they aren't necessarily gonna fall in love with your product the way you want them to. It's a great book. We studied the book as a team and then we ended up basically overhauling our whole onboarding system to follow the principles laid out in this book. So it was really amazing. Nice Well, off we go. We'll see you next time for another episode.
Ira:Take care everybody.
Stacee:Thanks for listening to the show today. If you want to learn more about my story or Ira's story, be sure to check out episodes two and three. And if you are an accidental entrepreneur and would like to be a guest co-host on the show and spin the wheel, just message BE A COHOST spaces to 1-833-463-9727 and tell us your story. See you next time.
