Beauty and the Brain: How Neuroaesthetics Shapes Leadership, Change, and Resilience

What if the fastest way to raise engagement isn’t another dashboard, but a better-feeling room? We explore the powerful, practical intersection of neuroscience, beauty, and creativity—showing how light, color, sound, space, and story shape trust, focus, and performance before a single word is spoken. Rhonda shares her path from burnout to a creative sabbatical, then connects it to the growing research on neuroaesthetics and neuroarts: why our brains calm with art, how cortisol drops can unlock learning, and where awe reduces stress and strengthens connection.

We unpack the difference between neuroaesthetics (how the brain responds to aesthetic experiences) and neuroarts (applying creative practices to support wellbeing and learning). From social prescribing in healthcare to sensory-savvy offices, the examples reveal a common thread: people engage when they feel safe. We break down inclusive design choices—natural light, plants, quieter spaces, neutral scents, accessible colors and fonts—and discuss how open offices, hot desking, and nonstop noise can sabotage creativity, especially for neurodivergent teammates.

You’ll leave with simple, budget-friendly steps: turn one meeting into a visual conversation, use shared canvases like whiteboards or Miro, add tactile tools to improve listening, start with a grounding question, and make progress visible with clear, beautiful frameworks. We also offer ways to shorten the valley of change: anchor the why with stories, create moments of awe, and let teams co-create their environment so ownership rises along with outcomes.

If the vibes feel off at work, they probably are—and the nervous system is telling you why. Subscribe, share with a colleague who sets the meeting rooms, and leave a quick review so more leaders can design for better work. Have a question or a challenge you want us to cover? Send it our way and we may feature it in an upcoming Q&A.

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Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Transcript

Global Hellos And Listener Shoutouts

Dr. Katie 0:00

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie. And I'm Rana Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you this week. Whether you are new or a longtime listener, we are thrilled to have you here today.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:15

Absolutely. It's always a delight to get to talk to you and to welcome in our listeners.

Dr. Katie 0:22

Well, and I have to say, I haven't shared this with you yet, but Sweden has decided to come into the conversation. So we have a contingent of people in Germany that are listening. And so US is obviously the highest listened country, but we had 15 downloads from Sweden over the last week.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

So I love that.

Dr. Katie 0:45

I know. I should have looked up how to say hello in in German it's Gutentag, but I don't know Swedish.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:51

Oh, I love that so much. Well, hello to everyone in Sweden. And I can't, yes, that's something that we should do is try to learn how to welcome folks in different languages. And then also hopefully one day we get to the point where we're discussing maybe specific leadership examples from different situations in different cultures. And that would be really fun. That's so fun.

Dr. Katie 1:18

I love hearing statistics like that. I know it is, it is so fun. And it's, you know, it's always, you know, we we would love to hear from you all in other countries. Are you, you know, are you expats? Are you from the US that are over there? I know I have a lot of military connections and friends, or is it or are there just people in those communities that have found us, which is cool too?

Rhonda Jolyean 1:41

Yeah, just on the reviews, you can send us a little message, or I know Katie's email is tied to the podcast. You can email her or message us or just comment on our LinkedIn posts. We're really just any way you want to get a hold of us, it'd be great.

Dr. Katie 1:56

Yeah, say hello. Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 1:58

Yeah.

Dr. Katie 1:58

Well, and I'm excited for today's podcast. So last week's podcast, we talked about so much of my work and my research and the stuff I do. And so we're flipping the tables today. And today we are highlighting you and your work.

Rhonda Jolyean 2:15

Yeah, I'm excited to share this. It's interesting because I know that we've discussed this a little bit, and I love speaking about this. I could speak about this forever, so I will try

Framing Today’s Focus On Neuroaesthetics

Rhonda Jolyean 2:31

to keep it to a minimum. I will not go on and on and on for days. But you and I have discussed this personally and professionally, and yet there's so much more that I share with clients and that I write about. And I'm excited to get into the research and the innovative field of neuroaesthetics and neuroarts and how I utilize that in my personal life and professionally.

Dr. Katie 3:03

Yeah, yeah. It it is you have opened a whole new world to me. So I'm excited to share this. So yeah, today we're really going to talk about neuroscience, beauty, creativity, and how it really shapes the way people experience leadership and change, but just really day-to-day life as well.

Rhonda Jolyean 3:23

Absolutely. I'm hoping that what we discuss, people can take immediately into their workspaces, whether you're a leader or a member of a team or both. And there can be things that you take into your personal life. So I want everybody to walk away with tangible ideas to be able to do that today.

Dr. Katie 3:43

Yeah. Well, so let's set the stage. You know, as we get ready to really dive into it, uh, for people who've never heard the term before, what is neuroaesthetic and why should leaders care about it?

Rhonda Jolyean 3:56

Yeah. I was in a meeting the other day and I in the chat, it was a Zoom meeting, I wrote the term neuroaesthetics down, and somebody on the other end said, I'm not even gonna try to pronounce that. It is a long word. If you've never seen it before, your mind just says, What the heck is that? So neuroaesthetics, it literally for those of you listening, it is literally the word neuro, as in neuroscience, and aesthetics,

Defining Neuroaesthetics And Why It Matters

Rhonda Jolyean 4:29

as in the study of beauty, put together. And that is exactly what it is. It is the science of how beauty and art, design, and sensory experiences affect the brain and the nervous system. And you might be thinking, well done. Those two things put together, that sounds pretty pretty obvious. And this is not something that is new to us as human beings, but unfortunately, fortunately, this is something that is rather new to the science field in the science industry. So this field of study explains why color, light, music, and space, things like visuals change how we feel, think, and behave. So for me, I think about leadership, and I know we've talked about this before, is leadership being cognitive, or not being cognitive, it's also being emotional. And I speak about it also being embodied. So we truly, as human beings, we can feel each other. I had a therapist once that would say all the time, we are not just human beings having this human experience, we are feeling emotional beings having this experience. And wow, if that's not true lately. Yeah. But people experience leadership and change through their nervous system first. And so we don't, you know, we feel the way that people are leading us through things. You feel certain ways about your managers, you want to leave certain jobs because of that, not always through logic. It's, you know, people say, I feel it in my heart, I feel it in my gut. And that is a human instinct. So neuroesthetics can help us as leaders understand how environments and experiences shape trust, safety, and engagement.

Dr. Katie 6:37

Yeah. Well, and I love it so much. And and I'm gonna ask you how you got into this because I can just imagine. But as as I'm listening, you talk thinking about, you know, I'm doing a lot of talks right now on you know the good old days, which was probably not so good, quite frankly, where you know, it was like come in, sit down, shut up, do your work, go home. And it's like, you know, I'm I'm not here to be your friend, I'm here to be your boss, and you know, all of those things that did not serve us then and definitely does not serve us now. Uh and it, you know, it just ties into you know this neuroaesthetics. And quite frankly, it probably is stuff that we should have learned back then that thank goodness we're learning now.

Rhonda Jolyean 7:20

100%. As we get into more of the fields around burnout, mental health as priority in the workspace, these fields are becoming more and more needed. We will focus mostly today on neuroesthetics and neuroarts, but there's also subcategories of fields like biophilia, which biophilia actually is the study of how plants and nature are built into architecture to help us feel better in spaces. So if you think about the big companies like Google, big companies like Apple, they are already doing this because they, like you just said, sit down, shut up, and do your work. Well, they want people to actually do that, but they want them to feel good so that they stay and do better work and continue to do it and want to work longer.

Dr. Katie 8:23

So yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. The the happier or more content people are gonna be, they're gonna be there longer. They're not gonna want to try to get out. Well, and before we go too deep, I love all the science. I'm just geeking out on it. Like, I have a hundred more questions, but yeah, let's let's like start from the beginning. Like, I know you really came from the world of leadership and change management.

From Burnout To Beauty-Driven Healing

Dr. Katie 8:45

You worked for a very significant employer, not just in Kansas City area, but across the country and and I would imagine internationally as well. What really drew you to North Neuroesthetics? And when did you realize that it's you know someplace you wanted it to be and that you want to do this work?

Rhonda Jolyean 9:04

Yeah, I we've discussed my burnout story before. And for those people that haven't heard it, just quickly, I left a career after eight years, three years later than I should have. I took an intentional sabbatical, I called it my rondais. So I intentionally made things. I created things with my hands, I painted, I volunteered, I made sure to stay active. But as I was painting and drawing and doodling, I would also go through my dad's old heirlooms and artifacts and my grandma's because I'm a very tactile person. And I had very much delayed grief from my dad passing away 25 years ago. So as I was going through these tangible things, personally, I started thinking from a change management perspective, you know, there's always the valley, the dark valley that people go through with change. You know, there's shock, and then you go down into depression, and then we get, we weave our way up into the better days and then hopefully into flourishing. And I know that's a word that you love for this year, it's flourishing. But how do we get ourselves out of that dark shadow, that valley? And I was noticing that as I spent more time with these articles, with these artifacts, these tangible things, I would start to be able to actually process my grief and write about it for the first time in 25 years. Wow. And I thought there's something here. What is this? And that was four years ago. And back then there was a little bit of research. And in fact, one of my favorites, I picked up a book by Anjan Chatry Chatterjee, and it's called The Aesthetic Brain. He is one of the foremost researchers on this subject, and he discusses how our brains as human beings, we have evolved to be drawn to beautiful things, to be drawn to physical things. And I didn't at the time know that that's what I was doing, was being drawn to these things on purpose, these transitional objects, if you will, the transition between my dad and my grandma dying, and then me being able to flourish, getting out of that depression and being able to flourish myself. But I knew that there had to be something else around it. Like how if I'm why do we hold on to these totems when people die? Why do we, you know, and there's other things too. I saw when I was helping leaders through change that having signals, having visual commitment posters, having fun branding campaigns would help people change more than just okay, we're gonna do this shit up or shut up, sit down and do your work, you know? And so then luckily, as I started seeing people struggle through the change emotionally, like I was, I thought, you know, there's these visual tools that are helping me feel calmer. And again, I struggled for so many years. I started calling it aesthetic thinking for myself. I was like, well, it helps me think better, it helps me feel better. Luckily, two people codified what I was thinking, and it was Susan Mag Mason. Mag I can never say her last name right, and I've even seen her speak. And I'm so sorry, Susan, because you're amazing. But it's Mag Sessman, Mag Sessman and Ivy Ross. And Ivy Ross actually works for Google, and Susan is a researcher herself, but they wrote your brain on art. And this is basically what they take is the research, the amazing, credible research that Dr. Anjon does and his work that all the other researchers do around the neuroscience, and they put it into tangible terms that people like me can understand. And they talk about neuroarts and neuroaesthetics in a way that says this is why, as humans, we are drawn to Rhonda, you're drawn to these heirlooms. This is why as human beings, we rode on the cave walls to communicate. And I started realizing that without beauty and art and design, I wouldn't be as joyful and as hopeful. And what I saw when I worked for big companies and with leaders, that if you had art on the walls, people were doing better and were more engaged. If, you know, these huge companies at Google,

The Research Behind Art, Stress, And The Brain

Rhonda Jolyean 14:30

they had these beautifully designed corporations, not just to attract talent, but to keep talent and to keep them engaged. And so all of these things were finally giving me the verbiage that I need that I knew in my heart of hearts that I was feeling, because we are feeling beings, finally gave me the verbiage that I needed to then express it to my clients and codify frameworks that I needed and validated everything I was feeling, honestly.

Dr. Katie 15:03

Yeah. Oh, that is so powerful. And and I love the research and I want to hear, and especially I love all the stuff on the brain. Like the brain for me, I'm doing a lot of brain research, it doing some stuff for my upcoming new books and things like that. But you know, as you're talking, I'm seeing her looking at my desktop, and it's a flourishing tree that has flowers, and yeah, you know, it makes me think, you know, during the winter, winter, where we have this, you know, it's it's dark earlier and it's gray and nasty, and you know, it just that we just don't feel that great. And so you think about the again the good old days, we went into these offices that had cubicles and fluorescent lights, and it was just miserable. And probably the staunchy, you know olds, you know, old guard with like, we why do we need a plant? Like, why do we need these things? But our brain is probably screaming for that for that beauty. So I'm I'm really curious about, you know, why does this give us so much power and how does it affect our our brain? Because it feels like there's a lot to that.

Rhonda Jolyean 16:16

So this affects us more than we actually think about. But again, we feel it and we do know it, we just don't talk about it. Yeah, there's there's certain people that talk about it. The you know, the designers at Google, people like Ivy Ross, more and more people are trying to talk about it. But in a world where there is so much chaos and depression and negativity, it is so, and we've talked about negativity bias, it's so much easier for us to talk about that and to talk about ROI, to talk about, you know, it's like last time where we were talking about just helping be more productive. I don't want to talk about values or clarity of work that you were talking about with the leaders. And then the next day they said, Oh, never mind. We actually need you to talk with us about the more human-centered part. In a world where all of that depression and darkness and chaos exists, it's it's way easier for us to focus on that than it is on how can we make people feel better with design and visuals and shapes and colors and sounds. It's all the sensorial uh aspects of what we need as human beings. And so when uh you think about, and I it's hard to use the word beauty, but I do like to use the word beauty because it helps people think about uh sensorial aspects, but I define the word beauty as anything that you find beautiful or joyful. So when I say the word beauty during this podcast, what I mean to people is whatever you find beautiful, I don't mean standards of beauty or models or you know, that traditional beauty, but your brain on art, so this book again, that this book explains that engaging with art and beauty can lower our cortisol levels by 60%, by up to 60%, helping us move out of threat and into creativity and learning. So, again, if you think back to the cave people days when we were at constant threat of being eaten, or worse, they still drew, they still created instruments, they still did things that we have today because that helped lower their cortisol levels when their cortisol levels were so high. And we still know that today, with the constant information coming at us, with the constant chaos and the constant threats. I mean, we have what we what my therapist calls the little T traumas every day of I mean, let's just face it, people are dying in the streets, we have constant threats, we have financial threats, we have climate threats, all of these things. When that is constantly coming at you, that is chronic stress. And so our cortisol levels are very, very high. Just participating in one act of quote unquote art and beauty, so that could mean that does not mean you have to be a painter, that can mean engaging with an artifact like I did, looking through beautiful things that family members have left, heirlooms. That can mean listening to your favorite music. There is a reason that we love going to concerts, yeah, that we love listening to

Neuroarts In Medicine And Social Prescribing

Rhonda Jolyean 20:05

ASMR videos. Oh my gosh, people, there is a reason that you love watching cooking videos, yeah, all of these beautiful things that can lower your cortisol by 60%. And so you think, all right, right, well, oh, this is great, Rhonda. This helps me personally. How does this affect me as a leader? Well, if you think about it, we are we are the same humans at work as we are personally. So what we see is that if we are reducing cortisol by these visual standards at home, we can also do that, or by these sensorial standards, we can do that in the workplace. Again, we just haven't talked about it.

Dr. Katie 20:51

Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting because it's really a you know, beauty is in the eye beholder. And so I'm thinking, you know, as you're talking, like some people get great joy and satisfaction from a beautiful laid-out, you know, spreadsheet. And, you know, they get a t-shirt that says, you know, I iHeart spreadsheets, and then there's other people that you know that they do not find doing that. And and you know, some of it is art and some is print, and some of it is I I love I love how you lay that out. And I think it is really a powerful thing to to think of because it's all relative to us. And you know, when when I think of creativity before I knew you, I was like, well, I'm not a super creative person, like I'm not an artsy person. And now I very proudly I am. It's just different. I'm not going to sit down and paint a picture, or I'm not going to write an eloquent song, but but there are pieces to this. And I've heard you use the word neuroarts and talk about neuroarts. So what is that and what role does that that really play?

Rhonda Jolyean 22:00

Right. So there is a difference between neuroaesthetics and neuroart. So neuroaesthetics is the science behind behind how we our brains actually respond to aesthetic experiences. So either doing art, engaging in art, etc. And then neuroarts is the application of art and creativity and beauty to support well-being and learning. So Dr. Anjan, he researches how, like, for example, how your brain, Katie, every time you look at that beautiful tree on your screen, he would be researching how your brain is responding. The actual practical application of this might be you if you created that in Canva, let's say that is your practice of that is your neuroarts practice, is you creating that. That is you. Whereas in the old days, we would say to be an artist, you have to be a painter or a woodworker or whatever. We now there's multiple applications of neuroarts and get this. Oh my gosh, I love this so much. Okay. Neuroarts is more than just engaging in arts. Neuroarts has actually expanded into the well-being areas, and neuroarts is actually becoming part of social prescribing. So what I mean by that is there are huge programs around the country that are starting to, well, they've already been developed, but they're starting to gain momentum, wherein medical doctors instead of prescribing medications, are prescribing prescriptions to go to museums. I love it. Prescriptions to go to art classes. And this isn't to say if people really need the medication, they're getting medication, but this is people asking more wellness-based issue questions

Making The Business Case For Environments That Feel Safe

Rhonda Jolyean 24:15

and saying, how can we be preventative and not just a country wherein we ask how can we keep people sick? Now we have a long way to go because as we know, we are a country that keeps people sick currently. But there are a lot of people who are trying to flip that script. And so there's, I mean, you can do a ton of research on your own. Alice Walton has of the Walmart legacy, has opened a huge hospital training facility in Arkansas, wherein the medical training doctors, that's what they learn. It's it's all about. So it's just how do I help people in well-being and social prescribing, etc. I want to go down there so bad and just hear about everything that they're doing. But it's also, if you think about, okay, well, if doctors are doing that, then what can I do as a leader? There's so many applications to be able to put this into corporate America and to not only help with ROI, but as you were talking about last week, engagement. Oh my gosh, we're so disengaged. We're the most disengaged that we've ever been. Yeah. And if people are able to lower their cortisol, they're also able to, we're able to raise their engagement. I mean, it's unbelievable some of the shifts that we're able to see with the application of neural arts.

Dr. Katie 25:53

Yeah, yeah, it is fascinating. And we are seeing, I know we talked about it in last week's podcast. I mean, seven out of ten people are disengaged at work. And that is, I mean, massive, expensive, just is crazy. And you know, when I think of the neuroarts, I had heard of the it's the neuroarts resource center, right in Arkansas. I've heard of it, but I've no.

Rhonda Jolyean 26:18

That's not the one that's in Arkansas. So Alice Walton's is, I don't remember the name of hers. The that one that you're talking about is really important. That's the one that is Susan and Ivy sit on the board of, and they sit on the board with a bunch of other people, and that is one that everyone should visit. Actually, you could go online to it right now. They have free resources. You can join their newsletter and it sends out the latest research, the latest applications. There are huge public funding grants for people. I mean, they're getting more and more momentum by the day. And what I really love is this is not just a we're keeping all of the research close to the people who do the research. This is we want to hear from you what kind of research are you doing? So think about, I think about it this way. Back in, I don't even remember when the women's studies became a field of study. That is, you can think about neuroarts as an emerging field of study. So many universities are starting to add it, but we've got a long way to go. So as you're starting to get all of this information, this has become a collaboration between researchers, students, practitioners, lay people, business people, you know, and everybody's adding to it. It's unbelievable. And this is the way it gives me chills because this is the way that it should be people, no one owns this. Everybody is in this together, and it's making the research better and it's making this field more powerful. And so I would encourage everyone listening. It's the neuro neuroarts resource center. You can learn so much more about this movement, really.

Dr. Katie 28:16

Yeah, that's cool. Well, and we'll put the link in the show notes so people can go and check it out because it is really powerful. And quite frankly, you know, I think it is something that we need to be thinking about. And it's just going to as the unfortunately, life's not getting easier, like things aren't slowing down. Our phones are still buzzing, everything keeps going. And and then we think about work and we think about all the conversations we've had about, you know, we the burnout is up and stress is up, and and you know, we're we're desiring so many things. And so I'm just sitting here thinking, we've talked a little bit about it, but you know, how does this really show up in leadership and the workplace? And I will I'm thinking too, you know, we we gave examples of my client last week where they were like, we need to focus on these things, and then we're able to flip it to be like, no, in order for you to focus on profits, you've got to pay attention to the root of it. So I'm just even thinking, because it's an emerging field, I'm sure there's some people out there that think, oh, well, this is foo-foo stuff. But why should managers and executives truly really care about this?

unknown 29:29

Right.

Rhonda Jolyean 29:31

So you're absolutely right that people I don't even when I start to speak to people about it in corporate when they are potential clients, I don't use the words neuroaesthetics or neuroarts. I just talk about blending neuroscience and creativity. And I I use words because you have to meet people where they are, right? You know and had somebody said neuroesthetics to me 10 years ago, I would have been interested, but I wouldn't have thought. I would just say what so I get that. But uh we again leadership is nervous system to nervous system, and we feel

Practical Workspace Design For Real People

Rhonda Jolyean 30:13

safety, we need to feel safety and we feel that we can either feel safety or threat before we think, right? So we can feel what our leaders are projecting before we use logic, and we also do this with environments. So the best example that I always give to people is think about when you go into a restaurant and immediately when you walk into a restaurant, you know if there is a ton of dingy lights, you can't read the menu, it's super, super loud. That I mean, already I have a stomachache because I know that my partner he is going to be uncomfortable. So then that's gonna make me uncomfortable, and then I'm not gonna have as good of a dining experience. Whether I recognize that it's the environment and the sensorial aspects of it or not, my body feels that. Now, if I were to walk in and there's mood lighting and there's wonderful, beautiful art on the walls and beautiful lighting coming through windows. And I mean, literally, my I through my legs, I just had this like glorious chill in a good way going through my legs. It's seriously, our bodies tell us the way you know how you feel. So if I'm doing that with restaurants, I'm doing that with workspaces. So as a leader, as a business owner, you can foo-foo away and say, I'm not gonna spend, I'm not gonna spend money on making these gray, icky, puke walls, any other color. But I encourage you to ask your employees what they what you think, what they think about that paint color or how they feel when they walk in the door. I also encourage you to think about if you don't have any plants in your environment, because again, there are tons of studies about biophilia and how that helps us having those natural bringing nature inside when we can't be outside. That's huge for our systems, for our feeling systems. It also neuroesthetics helps leaders create conditions for clarity, trust, and creativity. Because when I don't feel safe, if there's dingy lighting, if I can't really see, or if it's too loud, like open spaces for some people, open workspaces, that's too loud for people, especially with neurodivergence. They're not gonna be creative, they're not gonna feel emotionally safe. And so when you think about all of the changes that are happening right now, AI, I mean, these are things you and I will deal with clients all the time. AI, budgetary, regulatory, all of these things, they're not gonna want to change. That valley of despair is gonna be so much longer and so much harder, and they're not gonna get to flourishing as easy when they don't feel emotionally safe in their environment. So, one quote that I like to say is that in Dr. Anjon, he discusses in the aesthetic brain that environments with visual order and natural environments like plants and beauty can increase cognitive performance and focus by over 20%, which directly affects decision making and leadership effectiveness. And this is from decades of study. So the and across industries, by the way. So I don't know about you, but 20% when seven out of 10 people are disengaged, that's yeah, that's huge ROI, I would say, especially when you can get, we've talked about this before about getting your team involved and saying, what do you all want to do? Could we put up a collaborative art piece? Could we, you know, and it I'm not I don't even tell clients to do something that's super expensive. It can be really easy changes as well.

Dr. Katie 34:35

So yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. I'm sitting here and you know, you think about you know the vibes, right? I think my kids all talk about vibes, but it's it's true no matter age, like we can feel the vibes, we can tell when the vibes are off, but we don't always know why or what or whatever, whatever. And then I was thinking about you know, post post-COVID, we saw, you know, so many people working from home, and then there was this big call back to the office.

Rhonda Jolyean 35:04

Yeah.

Dr. Katie 35:05

And I remember seeing someplace an article

Awe, Resilience, And Reducing Burnout

Dr. Katie 35:10

talking about how companies are redoing the workplace to make it more comfortable. And I wonder if they even realize that they were using neuroesthetics to bring people in and to make them more, more comfortable, happier, more engaged, things like that. Because truly you go from the comfort of your own home where you said it's own way to now going back to the fluorescent cubicles.

Rhonda Jolyean 35:37

Yes. And really what people should be thinking about is not only the senses, so the sensorial aspects, you should also be thinking about how different people engage with aesthetics. So is that something? I mean, music is always a welcomer, but it can be a divider as well. Not everybody does well having music. And so, you know, my partner can listen to music and be totally fine. I can only do it on certain projects. You have to think about smells. Smells is a trigger for a lot of people, but you don't want your environments to smell bad. So you also want to make sure that there's neutral smells. You also want to think about even how things are worded or colors. So when you think about accessibility needs, never use red, never use orange in texts, never, you know, all of these things add to how our brains function and focus. And there's a whole system of neurodivergence in, you know, certain fonts work for people and certain fonts people just can't even see. So there's so much that affects employees that we need to be thinking about. And that's not on every leader to think about. Really, it comes down to working with your team and saying, I understand that our environment affects us. And if we have to be in office, which by the way, apparently remote work is just going away. I I've talked to so many people, and remote work is not a thing anymore. So if we have to be an office, what are things that our team really wants and that will help us feel more engaged? That is something that will help your team feel so much more safe with you, and as a leader, will help you get your engagement scores way up. Yeah.

Dr. Katie 37:42

Yeah. And it's fascinating because I'm thinking, you know, as we talk about change and we do this a lot, even good change, like there's uncomfortableness even in good change. And then we've talked about stress and burnout and everything going on. So just how does this interact here with change burnout? And then what does this really mean for resilience? Right.

Rhonda Jolyean 38:06

Well, resilience is the ability for us to return to regulation after stress. This is a constant for us as human beings. So with all of this research, we know, and again, we just feel it, beauty, art, and meaning help our nervous systems reset. And aesthetic experiences also help us process emotion during uncertainty. So, you know, if I'm feeling really stressed, I might listen to a playlist, or you might look at your uh flourishing tree or do something that really matters to you. But, you know, all of this neuroaesthetics essentially can give tools to leaders to be able to support that, like I said, that emotional transition. If you think about dipping down into that valley of despair that everybody goes through during change, that transition, and then going back up into hopefully that flourishing. One thing, um, another book that I wanted to share with people that's really, really good. And it doesn't even, it has to do with neuroaesthetics, but it's really tangential. It's it's called Awe, the New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life by Decher Keltner. And I actually read this one before I read either of the two other books that I have suggested, but in it, he talks about how, and this is very, very scientific. You'd love it, Katie. It is heavy on the research. Um, Dasher talks about how experiencing awe makes people feel more connected, more generous, and less stressed, and even reduces inflammatory markers in the body that are linked to burnout. So you can think about awe as being something surprising, something out of the ordinary. Think back to when we talked about how we can rewards and recognition. So think about doing something out of the ordinary, out of office. Think about doing a team collaboration. Maybe it's even just a volunteer action together because that really makes that feeling in that body,

Tactics Leaders Can Use This Week

Rhonda Jolyean 40:32

that sense of awe happen. So it doesn't have to be this incredible sunrise at a national park. I mean, yes, everyone loves that. And that makes us feel awe, but it can also be those small situations with your team that are out of the ordinary. So that can really help with that. I don't remember what's the word for when people like have less sick days, you know, they're just more resilient and they don't get sick as often.

Dr. Katie 40:59

Yeah, yeah. I well, definitely, you know, absenteeism goes down. Absenteeism, yes, absenteeism goes down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and I'm sitting here thinking one of my closest friends, many years ago, I think pre-COVID even, they did away from like owned desks. So instead of having a desk, they have all of these shared spaces. And so you have a little locker and you come in in the morning, you throw yourself in the locker, and then you take what whatever available desk there is. Right. And at first she could care less about it. And now, you know, they're what six, seven years into it, and she is not loving it. Like I heard her say recently, like, I just would like a place for my stuff. And I know I love stuff, I have stuff everywhere. Uh, it makes me so happy for my birthday. My husband got me a green bookshelf that I just uh every time I look in the mirror myself or at in the camera and see it in the back of the makes me so happy. Um, so I'm thinking about you know how this really looks in the workplace. Like, how does it actually how do we put it in practice for teams and leaders and just even individual contributors?

Rhonda Jolyean 42:18

Right. I I never suggest hot desks as we used to call it when I was in corporate America. I people have to feel welcome. Now, if if your friend said I don't care, I don't mind having a space like that, that's great. Some people travel all the time and they don't want to actually have to come in, and that's fine. That's great. I think people need the choice. And if people, if you don't have spots to give people, you have to have a way that people feel welcome so they have some kind of a space. And I don't think obviously a locker isn't cutting it. So maybe it's a room that they share. Maybe it's they get to be a part of a certain program where they share desks. I don't know, but you need to ask those employees what their ideas are so that they can have that dedicated, meaningful space. Because again, artifacts, having that environment which they feel emotionally safe in is going to make them want to come back again and again and again. So other ways that we use this neuroaesthetics tactics in the workspace and that I recommend to people is using going back to old talk about old school, using whiteboards, sticky notes, and visual mapping instead of only PowerPoint. I mean, come on, PowerPoint, uh you gotta love it and you gotta hate it. Yeah, mostly because people use PowerPoint incorrectly and they put too many words on it. But and if people don't know they're Are tons of online free visual team collaboration platforms like Miro and Mural, and those can help people who are in remote situations too be able to have brainstorming and tied in workspaces. I think Microsoft is called white border white space or something like that. But they can all, you know, you have to have a visual component when it comes to meetings. We can't no longer can we just be talking because not everybody's brain works that way. Right. And then letting teams use objects or images to represent goals, challenges, or priorities. This doesn't mean you have to be artistic. Again, just putting something up on the wall, like these are our priorities, these are our team objectives, and having that commitment placed everywhere will say this is what we believe in. There is a reason why we have artifacts and documents in our country's history, in, you know, why corporations have vision and mission statements, teams can have those too. And so I always say that's something that you should print out and have on walls or on cubicles, et cetera. And then also designing meeting spaces where you have better light and less noise and fewer distractions. Sometimes that's easier said than done, but you as a leader can be aware of this as you're having meetings. And especially with Zoom meetings, make sure that everybody feels like they have a space where they can feel safe to contribute. This is one of my favorites, creating rituals, like starting meetings with grounding a reflection. Now, I know not everybody is into this, and this sometimes feels woo-woo to say we're gonna have a reflection, but this

Q&A Invitation And Closing Requests

Rhonda Jolyean 46:00

can also just be we're gonna have an intentional time to talk about personal stuff. So everybody talk about something you're looking forward to this week. Everybody have everybody talk about your favorite thing from last week, or even just let's talk about our favorite ice cream flavor or something, you know, just to have that emotional connection, that emotional feeling. And then also using visual frameworks to help make complex things easier to understand. So again, knowing that, and by the way, this isn't just for internal, your clients don't want to look at a 90 to 100 page strategy document of words. Yeah. They people pay for beautiful frameworks that are visual. So just remember that.

Dr. Katie 46:54

Absolutely. Well, and it's funny because I worked with the military for many years, and I mean death by PowerPoint, like it's just a hundred PowerPoint slide with you know, way too many words on it. And yeah, it's just it's it's a lot. And as I'm listening, you think I listening you talk, I'm thinking about so many decisions are made based on what the decision maker feels. And I love how you keep saying, find out what your people need, because I hear oftentimes when we're talking about you know, feedback or recognition or anything else, it's like, well, I don't need it, it's not a big deal. And it's like, yeah, but your people do, so it is it is a big deal. And neuroesthetics in what they need is a big deal because it's not all about you, and quite frankly, some of the highest level decision makers, it is so much less about you and more about the people that are making making the bacon at the at the bottom level and getting things done. And so, you know, as we're thinking about wrapping up, we've kind of talked about why this matters right now. But I think, you know, if you want to just kind of wrap up with like, why does this matter right now? And then what are some tangible takeaways that you know, leaders we can do right away?

Rhonda Jolyean 48:09

Mm-hmm. Well, again, we are more often than not in the valley of despair when it comes to change, chaos, darkness, personally and professionally, things are tough right now. So, as leaders, we have to think, how can I help my people feel more safe and in that way help them feel like they can engage more at work because it's hard enough to keep good people. So, in that way, and knowing that AI is going to keep coming, we have to keep good people because our human-centered uh taste, human-centered work will always uh win out, but we have to keep those good people. So that's why it is so important right now to think about how you're connecting to your other to your people's brains and how they're connecting to you, how those feelings and those cognitive uh aspects are connecting to each other. Some tangible takeaways that people can implement right away is you know, redesign one meeting to be more visual. Maybe have the notes be visual notes instead of just, you know, add in, okay, ask AI to help you make it visual instead of just words. That's you know, use AI in that way. Or change your physical environment. So this could be if you don't have the budget to add plants or natural light, think about maybe it's even just changing where you meet to then get people in and out of environments and then see which ones fit people best and which ones they feel better in. So if you do have the budgets, bringing in plants, that could be great. Or thinking about having people bring in their own stuff and saying, hey, if you're gonna have a garage sale and you want to bring in some of your own stuff, let's bring it in and designing it that way. Also having objects to support thinking. I love having things like little fidgets on my desk, little oh yes, exactly. That helps people and encourage that in meetings. People are not ignoring you. They you absolutely there's so much research on how people using their hands learn so much better and listen so much better when they are fidgeting. And again, with the science about neurodivergence coming out, people are listening to you. So encourage that. And then create calm moments of calm in the workspace. So you can have that moment where you talk to people about their favorite things or if reflection works for your teams, do that, and then invite awe and meaning. And you can, you know, what we used to do in corporate America that I in my last job that I did think worked, we went back to the why a lot. So we, when we worked with veterans, we would talk about very powerful stories. And that on really rough days would keep us going as to why we were doing what we were doing. So if you've got client stories like your story last week about the client that you had that, you know, implemented things into their culture, even though it took them a while to do it. Those are stories that are very powerful and and very grounding to people. And those can be awe-inspiring. And it's very important to go back to the why. Again, those are times of celebration, and we need those joys in these dark times because there will always be that darkness, and we have to resist with joy. And as leaders, it is our job to bring that to our teams and keep people because yes, I mean, it's just our jobs to keep people and keep those, keep our teams human, to be honest.

Dr. Katie 52:26

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think it's you know, it's it's really powerful. And you know, back to my research that we talked about, people want to be seen for who they are, they want to be able to show up who they are, and it's it's funny. I just keep going back to the the vibes piece, like people care about vibes more than ever. And some of us older people didn't know what it meant or that it mattered, but you know, the younger generations, it matters, and I mean they can tell when the vibes are off, or you know, when they're getting the ick or something like that. They're just like, and they don't always know why. And I think this conversation, I love that it is is growing. I love that the research and the practice is growing. I think it's going to only serve organizations, communities, everyone more and more as as we do this, because the younger generation, generations see the importance of comfortability and beauty and connection and and all of that. And and it's not gonna go away.

Rhonda Jolyean 53:29

Yeah, and you know, yes, people have codified it, they've re they've researched it, but we've all known this since we've been two years old, one year old. These are joyful things, these are things that are amazing to do. Who doesn't love music and fun and laughter and play? These are things that are wonderful, found fundamental as human beings. We just need to do more of that. And if we do more of that in our work, that will help us be more human, which will help us to do better work. It's pretty easy. We just need to get back to doing the things that we've done for centuries, yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Katie 54:19

And it goes back to, you know, the first podcast you were on where we, you know, reintroduce you to everybody. And it's, you know, we've got to get back to play. We got to get back to, you know, having field trips and and enjoying ourselves. And that's both at work and in our our personal life. And I think when we lean in and do that more intentionally, we're we're happier, we're more engaged, we just we just feel better. Our vibes are better. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Okay, with the vibes.

Dr. Katie 54:48

Oh my gosh. Well, I know we could talk about this forever, just like last week. I could talk forever. So I appreciate you sharing some of this research and your passion. We're gonna put in the show notes the books and the websites and all of the cool stuff that you talked about. Any final pieces before we tease people about what we're gonna talk about next week?

Rhonda Jolyean 55:11

Well, first, just thank you to you and to the audience for letting me blab on it. It's obviously I'm very passionate about it. There are so many amazing people doing research in this field. So please, you know, if you find people who are doing that in real life, listen to them because they like to talk about it too. And if you're gonna take anything away, just know that beauty and design and creativity are gonna help you and be powerful tools for change. And, you know, as leaders, this is gonna be huge. These are huge tools for you in your toolbox. And if you have any questions, this is what I do, this is what I help people with. I help people transform with these tools. So absolutely please reach out to me and I'd be happy to help.

Dr. Katie 56:01

Yeah, yeah. So good. When we do what we love, we love to talk about it all the time. I tell people all the time. Ask me about it. I'll talk about it. That's why I started a company is so I could do it all day, every day. Yeah. Um, so well, and next week we're gonna dive into just different questions and conversations that we're having, questions that are coming from listeners and people on our network. So if anyone is listening to this and have some questions, you can reach out to us. You can put it in the show comments, LinkedIn, email, whatever. Just let us know what you want us to break down. And we've we get enough of them, we'll do it over a couple different shows. But we want to know, you know, as leaders, as you know, people in our community, what are the things that that you're either struggling with or have questions about or just need need another opinion on. Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 56:58

And if you want to stay anonymous, that we just let us know and we will absolutely honor that. And it doesn't even, if you're a leader or if you've been a leader, or if you're an employee dealing with a leader, any of those types of scenarios, be happy to answer. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Katie 57:16

And I will say if you are listening to this in a few weeks after it comes out and you're like, oh, I missed that episode, it's okay. You can send us notes anytime. We always want to hear from you. Yes, yeah. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. As we we wrap up, please share this with anyone that you think it would be beneficial. You know, please go in and put five stars in the podcast platform that you listen. It it helps us as we continue to grow this community. And quite frankly, if you have people in other countries, that's super fun for us.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

Yeah. Heck yeah.

Dr. Katie 57:52

We would love to continue our our international reach. You know, we need to get to the point where we're doing live podcasts, and you know, maybe we need to do one from like Sweden.

Rhonda Jolyean 58:01

Yeah, there you go. 100%. If people want us to come on over.

Dr. Katie 58:06

Right, right. We'll just go and you can do the tour to France and then we'll we'll do a little uh get me started on that.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

That's a good old two hour podcast.

Dr. Katie 58:16

Another day, another day. So well, thank you so much for again sharing your passion with us. And thank you everyone for joining us on the path to leadership. We'll talk to you next time. Bye, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Bye.