Love Isn't Soft: The Leadership Mistake That's Killing Performance

What if the most effective leadership strategy isn't tougher accountability, better technology, or another employee engagement initiative?

What if it's love?

Before you roll your eyes, stay with us.

This week on Path to Leadership, Dr. Katie Ervin and Rhonda Jolyean sit down with leadership expert and former executive Mark Mears to challenge one of the biggest misconceptions in leadership: that caring for people and holding them accountable are opposing forces.

Mark has led some of America's most recognizable brands, and he's seeing a troubling trend. Employee engagement continues to decline. Managers are exhausted. Teams are doing just enough to get by. Too many organizations are confusing comfort with care, and the result is lower performance, lower morale, and frustrated high performers.

We explore:
• Why tolerating underperformance damages your culture more than difficult conversations
• The connection between accountability, trust, and belonging
• What quiet quitting and disengagement are really telling leaders
• Why purpose-driven organizations outperform those focused solely on profits
• The difference between shareholder value and stakeholder value
• How hybrid workplaces are creating new challenges for connection and recognition
• The role AI will play in leadership—and why human wisdom still matters

At the center of the conversation is Mark's LOVE framework:

Listen. Observe. Value. Empower.

It's a practical leadership approach that helps people feel seen, supported, challenged, and connected to something bigger than themselves.

If you're trying to create a culture where people thrive without sacrificing results, this conversation will challenge the way you think about leadership.

Because the best leaders don't choose between people and performance.

They understand that one drives the other.

Connect with Mark:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/markamears/

https://www.markamears.com/

Follow us on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/rhondajhale/ and https://www.linkedin.com/in/katieervin/

www.jolyean.com

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Check out Rhonda's Etsy shop:  https://www.etsy.com/shop/ThingsForge

Order Dr. Katie's books: 

• 52 Weeks of LEADERship:  https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?params=afiG9oMq4YoXnvxsSD9PDjTrezQvZd6A7vBE1T2yaGz
• You Might Be an Asshole: https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?params=O4ZMvNNamwFzFFUAjJB1s6pjudAiHrUlcUX0iMUlzI6

Learn more about Catalyst LEADERs Institute:  www.katieervin.com/leaders

 
Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dr. Katie 0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Path of Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie and I'm Rhonda Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you here today. And Rhonda, we are going to have some fun because we've got someone special with us.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:15

I know. I always love when we have a guest. And I especially love when we have a guest who has written a book. I think I read somewhere that everyone has a book inside of them. And that 10% of the population says that they have started a book, but then only 4% say that they actually have published a book. So I'm always in awe of people who actually go through with writing and publishing a book. And our guest today has actually done that.

Dr. Katie 0:48

Yeah. Yeah. And he's actually done it twice. And what's so cool is and I've had the luxury of knowing him for a little while and you just met him today. But what I love is every time him and I spend time together, it is like, I mean, we can talk for three to five hours. Like it is just all on brand. So no more teasing. Let's let's get to it. How's that sound? Sounds good to me. Awesome. All right. Well, let's introduce everyone to Mark. Hey Mark, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Hey, I'm great, Katie and Rhonda. I'm just so excited to be here with uh you and your followers and uh looking forward to a great conversation.

Dr. Katie 1:31

Yeah, we we are thrilled to have you as we were talking before we hit record. You and I had talked about having you on the show. And then one of Rhonda's good friends mentioned you, and I was like, yes, let's let's get it done.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Oh, that's awesome. It's very flattering. And again, I'm glad to be here with you and looking forward to it.

Dr. Katie 1:50

Well, and and I can never like your background, all that you have done, like I could read your bio, but it won't be as good as having you share with people because you've led some of the most recognizable brands in America. But today you're really helping organizations grow through purpose and belonging. So can you just kind of introduce yourself, who you are, what you do, all that good stuff. Share a little bit about your background.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah, I'm Mark Mears.

Mark’s Career And Two Books

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I'm the founder and chief growth officer for Leaf Growth Ventures. And my goal is to inspire individuals, teams, and organizations to find purpose in fulfilling their true growth potential. And in doing so, help make the world a little better. And that's what I'm up to now, but but it's been a long and winding road. As you mentioned, I've had the great pleasure to work with some of the world's most recognizable brands from uh Pizza Hut when it was owned by PepsiCo to McDonald's and Friedoley, JCPenney, Universal Studios, Hollywood, and the Cheesecake Factory. And maybe most notably, I was the CMO for the Cheesecake Factory and Noodles and Company, a couple restaurant brands, but also president of Mimi's Cafe when it was owned by Bob Evans Farms as a publicly traded unit, and really had a tremendous growth opportunity listening and learning at the feet of some amazing mentors, from David Novak at Pizza Hut to David Overton, the founder and still CEO of the Cheesecake Factory, and several others. And so my and I've also had some stinkers along the way, too, which we'll probably talk about. So I've I've I've kind of seen and experienced the good, the bad, and the ugly, and I kind of coalesced all that into my first book, The Purposeful Growth Revolution, Four Ways to Grow from Leader to Legacy Builder. And then what I've now incorporated into its sequel, which is Love at Work. And it's all about creating communities of purpose and belonging for revolutionary growth in this new world of work. And that hopefully will catch you up on why I am so big on the power of purpose and how it can stimulate engagement at a time when we're experiencing historically low levels of engagement in the workplace.

Rhonda Jolyean 4:12

Yeah, absolutely. Well, first, I think your history of your career sounds delicious. You've worked with so many amazing, delicious companies. And then also when I heard the name of your new book, it really resonated with me. I think the word love is really powerful. And it's something that we don't bring into the workplace enough, especially with the loneliness epidemic that we have, low engagement, as you said, and then also just the lack of joy that we know that people are experiencing in their personal and professional life. And so just kind of starting to look back throughout your career, let's let's start with you first. What leadership lesson took you the longest to learn, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

That's a great question. And there's probably many different answers because uh as Leonardo da Vinci, I believe, or maybe Michael, no Michelangelo said, and he wrote on a back of a drawing a Latin phrase, oh gosh, I'm gonna get it wrong. But in paro, in caro or something like that, which which translates English to I'm still

The Hard Lesson On Accountability

SPEAKER_00 5:30

learning. So the answer is I'm still learning. But in answering your question specifically, I think one of the things that I've always tried to do is be be human and and with with with my teammates and make sure that I treated them the way I would want to be treated. And sometimes there were difficult situations. And I always thought I could save everybody. And I thought, well, you know, if I just you know help them out here and there, and if I just really, you know, understand where they're coming from and maybe what's going on in their lives, or maybe I can help them perform better and keep them off the pip, the performance improvement plan. And sometimes it worked, but a couple of times it didn't. And I didn't understand the downstream impacts of my lack of taking action on a teammate who was underperforming or not treating people well, or in in in whatever way creating a bit of a chaotic work environment, or maybe sometimes even toxic. And I learned about it later. And when I finally did take the action, I had some comments like, hey, Mark, you know, we I'm not sure you really understood the full story. People weren't comfortable speaking up, but you let this drag on a little bit long, and it really impacted the morale of the team, and we almost lost a few people over it. So that happened a few times to where it did get to me, and I had to make you know tough calls sooner than I maybe would have when I was a little bit, you know, more junior. It's I got more seasoned and I got more aware of of the mood of the team and the impact of the individual. It became, I hate to say easier, but it did help me make decisions to move quicker on people that really needed a fresh start elsewhere.

Rhonda Jolyean 7:22

Yeah, that makes sense.

Dr. Katie 7:25

Yeah, I think that's so important too. I think it we've all experienced that as people move through their career journey, like the the things we wish we would have known or the things we would wish we would have done earlier. And I think that is definitely an area I think people struggle with is holding people accountable, having those difficult conversations, doing all that kind of stuff. I think it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

That's um quite frankly, why it was the motivation for writing my first book, The Purposeful Growth Revolution. And it was, it was, it was designed to be what I call paying it backward. Okay. Me kind of mentoring a young Mark Mears several years, you know, previous to say, what would I tell him that could help him either avoid mistakes that I've made or pursue paths that I wish I would have taken or be able to see something more clearly now with the benefit of hindsight. And I just thought it would be criminal to go to my grave with all those experiences and having kept them to myself. So I wrote a purpose statement, which is I don't want to just make money and retire. I want to make a difference and inspire. And that means making a difference in the lives of others and inspire them to want to do likewise. So it creates this virtuous cycle of reciprocity. So I say paying it backward. Most people say, Mark, you love words. Why isn't the phrase pay it forward? And I say, well, no, it's pay it backward. And here's why. When I go to Starbucks, I'm a huge Starbucks junkie. And so when I go through the drive-thru, I will not as a random act of kindness, as an intentional one, I will pay for the car behind me. And I'll go up to the window and I ask the barista, can I pay for the car behind me? And they say, Oh, that's so nice of you. I said, Well, just do me one favor, tell them, God bless you, your debt has been paid. I drive away and I say a silent prayer for that person or persons in the car behind me. I don't know them, they don't know me, but I got to believe in that moment they feel valued. They feel blessed. And it just means so much to be able to package and give back through a book that will help others along their growth journey the way I wish I would have had that when I was, you know, a young butt rising up the uh the ladder.

Dr. Katie 9:46

Yeah, yeah. I think that's so powerful. And, you know, you think about people's legacy and your first book, it really does give that. Like have us think about our legacy and and how we're moving forward. And even thinking about like my own work where I do so much work in motivation, engagement,

Paying It Backward Through Leadership

Dr. Katie 10:05

and creating workplaces that thrive. What have you seen? Why do so many organizations struggle to connect people to purpose? Like, what's the disconnect?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah, I actually um obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this as I wrote that first book and then it carried through into this new book. It I think people are so tunnel vision on profit. And they think the only way to profit is through some sort of old school command and control management paradigm that no longer serves us, right? Younger people don't want to be managed and required, they want to be led and inspired. And I think it's also because they they they look at it like I was told growing up, it's all about shareholder value, shareholder value. And even at PepsiCo, when they owned Pizza Hut, there was a program called Share Power. And the whole idea was you get bonused and you get uh opportunities for growth and advancement based on the shareholder value, the price of the stock. And I think they're missing the forest through the trees because to me it's all about stakeholder value. Well, who are our stakeholders? I think there are four. There are our teammates, our customers, our business partners, that could be shareholders, but it's anybody in our business ecosystem that helps us go to market. And really importantly, the communities that we serve. So if you're able as a leader to connect the dots, they're very, very connected. Think of it like a four-circle then diagram. If your teammates feel what they're doing is purposeful, they're gonna take better care of your customers and give them a better experience, which will then allow the firm to make more money, which will then off uh you know, also allow us to take care of needs in our communities. That's gonna make those teammates feel even more purposeful. That's gonna make them take better care of the customer, that's gonna throw off more profit, that's going to enrich our communities. And you see how it is a you know, it's a virtuous cycle of reciprocity. That's really what it is. And I think people want to rush to just the bottom line. And what I cite in the book are several companies that because of their purposeful shareholder, sorry, stakeholder value orientation are much more profitable than their peers in their competitive set. So when you connect the dots and show a leader, it it it is lead. It's not purpose or profit, it's purpose and profit. And the two together will be like the rising tide that lifts all boats or the coal greater than the sum of its parts, whatever analogy you want to use.

Rhonda Jolyean 12:59

Well, I really like the stakeholder visual that you lay out because that's really important, especially when you compare it to the stakeholder versus shareholder. Besides most companies focusing solely on shareholders and not all stakeholders, what else are organizations getting wrong about engagement?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Well, a lot. There's Gallup does their state of the global workplace study every year. And obviously, I follow it religiously because it it provides the the backbone, the actual research that supports my thesis, saying we're in at in at historic low levels of engagement. And that that's been declining for a while, but really alarming is that in the last four years, manager-level engagement has dropped nearly 10 points, 10 points from like 30 to 20 or 32 to 22, I believe. So they're what they're getting wrong is they're not taking care of their managers, which I love the term leader better. And manager is is to me seems more transactional, or a leader is more relational. And so being able to provide the tools, and the manager's stuck between a rock and a hard place. You're you're you're you know getting your marching orders literally from senior executives, and then you have teammates that are not engaged, and you still have to get results. Yeah, yeah. And but then if the manager's not engaged, how are they going to engage their teammates? And so it's it's a vicious cycle, not a virtuous one. This one's a vicious cycle, and it can create toxic work environments. And so I don't believe that that executive leaders understand that dynamic enough to say this is hair on fire stuff. Now, a separate study that Gallup put out, get that, said one-third, 34% of every dollar that's paid in compensation and benefits is wasted due to lack of engagement. Now that ladders up to almost over 9 trillion globally, but just think about it, that's like shock value, right? That's 9% of GDP. But in in your own organization, if you were to look around and say, wow, we're wasting a third of our dollars on labor, which is the number one line item on a PL, either that or cost of goods, depending on your your industry. And so, wow, that's hair on fire stuff. And so I think they're too slow to move. And I think most of it is because

Purpose And Stakeholder Value

SPEAKER_00 15:40

of an old guard mentality, which is, well, this is what I had to do when I was coming up. And you just got to suck it up and keep your nose to grindstone. Don't bring that weak crap in here. I don't want to hear about your weekend or whatever. I just want you to get the job done and get results. And that's worked for people who of a certain age had to tolerate it, but we didn't enjoy it. And I think you use the word joy. I mean, we saw a separate research that said 89% of millennials and Gen Z want purpose in their work, not just in their life, in their work. And so purpose is something that is misunderstood. The dots aren't being connected, and executives are falling behind and hoping maybe that'll just go away. It's not going to go away by itself.

Dr. Katie 16:32

Yeah. Agreed. So, yeah, so much there. So, I mean, I love all of that. It's so funny. I'm gonna take us on that little side tangent talking about younger generations because my husband sent me a social media post this morning, and it's it referred to this guy, and it said, this guy had a brutally funny take on Gen Z's approach to work. He says a lot of them have figured out the whole system feels like a scam, so they're treating it like that. Fake mental health days, quiet quitting, weaponizing HR language, and doing the bare minimum while demanding maximum accommodations. This guy's reaction is, I'm here for it. They're using the playbook society has handed them. This is what happens when trust in institutions and old school work ethic collapse. People stop playing the game seriously and they start playing the system. And I think, you know, in my I can think back at my last couple organizations, if people were playing the system, they were playing the games at work. And I think the younger generations, they're not going to stand for that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Well, and and they they've they see how their parents sacrificed and they see them coming home and drained and complaining about their workplace. And they don't, they don't want any of that, right? They they they they've now changed the paradigm from work-life balance, which was a myth that we were sold that I've never found. And they've changed it and reversed it in a healthy way to life work purpose. And I think that's really important. And and you know, hats off to them because the work will still get done, and it will still get done with a high degree of quality and productivity, but it can get done under different circumstances, because as I mentioned, that kind of salute and execute kind of military command and control management style that that was brought kind of into vogue after World War II when GIs came back from the war, and then there was the GI Bill, and there was, you know, ways that you know the that they could get into business. And so that they they use those same kind of tools that works well in the military and translated it into the workplace. And that's why you see org charts, you know, and hierarchy and and and silos get created and little fiefdoms can can can crop up because it's not it's not organic and it's not it's top-down versus bubbling up from the people, which we'll get into in a minute when I talk about uh cool concept.

Dr. Katie 19:15

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love it. I love it. Well, and your new book, Love at Work. I remember when we talked about this before it was printed, before it was out, before it was you had mentioned to me the concept of it. I I love the idea of love at work, but I know it makes some people immediately uncomfortable when we talk about it. So when you talk about love at work, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, I mean, it's was designed to be provocative on purpose because, like I said, we need to get people's attention. This is hair-on-fire stuff, okay? It's not the love as you think that would get you a quick call from HR and escort it out of the building. It's actually a new model. If Leaf was the model, leadership, engagement, accountability, and fulfillment was the model for growth in the first book, The Revolutionary or The Purposeful Growth Revolution. This now is very similar. Think of it again like a four-circle Venn diagram. But in this case, love stands for listen, observe, value, and empower, which are four fundamental human needs, not wants, but needs we all share, but often find lacking in the workplace. So we think about breaking that down. Well, the what, the how, and the why, right? Listen, and you want to listen graciously to do what? To build trust with your team. You want to observe generously to invest in your teammate, and you want to value gratefully to demonstrate appreciation for your teammate, and then empower generatively to help your teammates grow into their full potential. And when you do that, there won't be quiet quitting, there won't be lack of engagement, there won't be the high levels of turnover we're seeing, where people just say, you know, I guess Gallup's saying over 52% of the people are actively looking for, you know, a new job, right? Again, it's like look around who who's who's looking for a new job, right? But if you are a leader, not a manager, certainly not a boss, but a leader who's building a relationship by listening, observing, valuing, and empowering them. We say, what do you mean by an investment? Well, one of the disengagement factors, Gallup sites in their studies, is people not feeling like they're getting timely and helpful feedback. So a lot of times managers may be stuck in their office, and especially in this hybrid work world where you're not maybe around each other every day, and a teammate can feel invisible. Like I don't matter. But when you invest in them and you have regular one-on-ones that are not just checklists on to-dos, but but true check-ins with you as a person, as a

Why Engagement Breaks For Managers

SPEAKER_00 22:15

whole person, right? Not just as a worker or an employee ID number, then you get that person to believe in themselves and believe in what they're doing really matters, right? And I think that's the number one job of a leader. Then Gary Burnison and at Corn Ferry, the CEO, will say this as well is that our job as leaders is to ensure that we make, we create an environment where our teammates feel that they are believed in so that they can believe in themselves and grow up into their full potential. Because if you don't get that kind of timely and regular and helpful feedback, how do you know how you're doing? How do you have belief in yourself when you're not getting any kind of coaching or critiquing? And notice I said critique, not criticism. So in the book, I cite a great example. And I mentioned the name David Novak earlier. David was the head of marketing at Pizza Hut when I worked there years ago. And he went on to become the co-founder and CEO of Young Brands and retired just a few years ago. Well, I was as young Buck in marketing and I was in Chicago for focus groups, and our home office was our headquarters was in Wichita, Kansas, where it was founded back in 1958. Well, David and his wife Wendy were coming back from Italy on one of those PepsiCo strategic planning meetings. And I saw them in the in the gate area, and they were boarding the same flight back to Wichita that night. And so I'm up about 15 rows in front of them. They're in the back. This is a night flight. So all the lights are out except for my little light because I'm putting notes together to get ready to present this research at a big meeting the next morning. And about 20, some odd minutes into the flight, David comes up and taps me on the shoulder and says, Hey, can I sit down? I said, Sure, seat next to me. And he proceeds to pull out a yellow pad and starts writing. And I couldn't really get what he was writing at the time. But what he was doing is creating this kind of from to construct. And it was a strength-to-strength model from X to Y, you know, from I can't even remember some of them, although I did keep the piece of paper. I still have it all up these years. But you're you're doing this well, but it could be better if you're doing this well, but it could be better if. And so about 20 minutes of that conversation, he asked me if I had questions, and I no, but he took the time when he was coming back from a transatlantic flight, tired from the week that they spent in Italy, had to get up early the next morning for work in the same meeting I was going to be presenting at. And he took the time to invest in me. And I just have never forgotten that. And I just feel like that's such a special example that I just had to share it with your listeners.

Rhonda Jolyean 25:18

I might love it. I really like that example too. And what's really important is not only do you remember the wonderful examples like that, but the horrible examples can make just as much of an impact. And that's it's important that we as leaders remember that that belief is greater of an energy that we need to instill on the people that we lead. So thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Well, I actually cite one of those examples in my new book, which we don't have time to get into, but it it it took me the opposite direction to your point. You know, when when David went back to his seat, I thought I could just fly the plane by myself. I was on cloud nine, just feeling like, oh my gosh, he just invested that time in me. And it was all about critiquing, not criticism, which can be uh negative and diminishing, but critiquing, which is positive and uplifting. You're still getting the point across that you you you could be doing things better, but doing it from a strength to a better strength. It's better than you know, the what another person did, which I outline in my book, that made me feel small and diminished and embarrassed and and and and I was not alone. And so when when asked about it, he would just say, Well, that's just my theater. That's your theater? Wow. Needless to say, that would be in the not-to-do pile.

Rhonda Jolyean 26:50

Yeah. So when it comes to the LOVE acronym that you uh told us about, are those the only behaviors that make people truly belong at work, or are there other behaviors that make us feel like we belong?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Well, if you break it down, there are four subcomponents to each of the love leadership models. So there's four ways to listen that build trust. There are four ways to observe that make someone feel invested in and that you believe in them and they can believe in themselves. There's four into value that leads to someone feeling appreciated, and four into empowerment, which leads to growth, right? So if you think about it, there are actually 16 different ways up underneath the four key ways. But I'll also say that, you know, thinking about how you show up as a leader in general, I say be real, right? Be authentic, be compassionate, be vulnerable, you know, be approachable. Those are those are things that make people feel like they can belong. And yeah, I used the word belonging on purpose, and I also do love words, and I I don't like the word culture. Sorry, I um Katie. You and I have had this conversation, so I'm sorry. But but I believe community is a stronger, more powerful word for what we want as leaders to to provide a community of belonging. So you think about sometimes cultures might just be cultures of conforming. Uh do I fit in?

Gen Z Pushback On Old Work Rules

SPEAKER_00 28:35

How do I fit in? I just want to fit in, versus a community of belonging is how do I make a difference? I want to make a difference. And do I feel psychologically safe in this environment to give of my very best? Because I think about DEI, which has become now somehow weaponized as a thing, instead of looking at it as a path that leads to growth and innovation, which we all want. I say diversity is good, but it gets just gets us in the door. Equity is good, uh, just gives us an equal voice. That's not bad. And, you know, inclusion is good. It gets a seat at a seat at the table, but if we don't feel like we belong, we're likely not going to be psychologically safe enough, uh, feel psychologically safe enough to give up our very best. Because we're just going to be happy to be in the room and have that seat at the table. We don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to say something that may get boomeranged back and held against us. We'll just keep our you know head down and hopefully no one sees us. And and and and that's not good for anybody. You're not going to get new ideas when someone doesn't feel safe, when someone doesn't feel like they belong. And you know, if you've played on a sports team or in band or music or drama or whatever, or or you're in a church that you feel like you just you're in a community of people that love you, right? You just it just makes you feel like you can do anything when someone has that belief in you and that makes you feel like, hey, it's okay. You're one of us and we love you, right? And I think that's something that you know, I've been on teams like that. I've I've felt that, and I don't understand why we don't create more of that in the workplace.

Dr. Katie 30:31

Yeah, yeah. I think that's really powerful. And I completely agree with you when it comes to culture and community. Like it's for me, you know, I always talk to companies about, you know, Brene Brown has the the phrase where she talks about the difference between fitting in and belonging. And so often, especially historically, we just wanted people that fit into our culture, fit into our organization, made us feel comfortable. And I think that's the real challenge because we don't allow people to come in and be the authentic true self and to really give everything they can to the organization. We're just asking them to, hey, don't make me feel uncomfortable as the boss of this organization. Come fit in, conform, behave, and and we're gonna all get along.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah, no, I would they just thought of that. I mentioned that Pizza Hut was owned by PepsiC until it got divested and whatnot, but there was a phrase that was used about people they hire at PepsiCo, and they called them Pepsi Perfect. So there was a mold you had to kind of fit in to get in and and and succeed. And and it was called Pepsi Perfect.

LOVE At Work Defined

SPEAKER_00 31:45

So I just remembered that.

Dr. Katie 31:46

Oh boy, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, we could go, yeah. I'm not even gonna. I'm just thinking about a former client that was like, I don't know why we can't get you know, diverse thought in the organization. And I just from the like front page of the website, I'm like, because I don't feel like I belong there, just on page one. And then so yeah, I could go down that whole road. But you know, just think about leaders today, right? It's it is such a challenging time. I always tell people I'm 50, and how I came in to the workplace, it was just such a different world. You came in, you conformed, you sat down, you shut up, you did your job, you clocked out. And and now today's leadership, it's we're dealing with so many different generational differences, AI, rapid change, uncertainty, burnout. I mean, it's it's just a really challenging world right now. And I think people are exhausted. I think leaders are exhausted. What do you believe is the biggest leadership challenge facing organizations today?

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Well, you know, over and above what we've been talking about is how to create communities of belonging versus cultures of conforming. I'll peel back the layer a little bit. What's the two-letter, you know, acronym that we've been hearing about for the last now three or four or five years? AI, right? So the first thing would be okay, how organizations incorporate AI in the appropriate way throughout their work. But but when you kind of think about it, AI, artificial intelligence is scaled knowledge. That's good. We need that, right? But there's another AI called appreciative inquiry. And it's really the art of asking questions. And to me, that gets shared wisdom. So you put the two together and you have scaled knowledge, which we need to help us sit through reams and reams and dreams of data and and decision trees and whatnot, but we also need shared wisdom, those hard-won experiences that some of us have gotten gray hairs up about over the years that we've learned, right? I've been in a similar situation here. Here's what we did and here's what we learned, right? AI is not going to do that for you. And what appreciative inquiry allows you to do is as I mentioned earlier, is bubble ideas up. So if you think about now in a meeting, instead of it being a sage from the stage kind of preaching at you, or the the upper level leadership, people saying we come back from our three-day planning retreat, and here's what we're going to do this year, and then just say, here's your you know, goals and here's your you know metrics of performance, have at it. Now we're talking about getting ideas from everywhere. And I say that because my last leadership position was as chief marketing officer for WoWWorks, which is a fast casual restaurant portfolio group that had SaladWorks and five other brands, right? Well, when I took it on, the first one was SaladWorks, and that was like the mothership of the portfolio. We had added the other brands on later. But I came in early November and I was told we don't have a marketing plan starting in January or a menu development plan. And so I quickly, all we had was a new kind of tagline, and it was called Be Original, which is cool. But there was no meat on the bones, literally and figuratively. And so we had to get our act together very, very quickly. So I convened a meeting at our ad agency in downtown Philadelphia, and I invited all of the stakeholders, not just our marketing and agency and PR firms, but our operations leads, our training leads, our HR leads, our IT leads, and even our executive chefs. So we got together and we started, you know, talking about this idea of beer. We started kind of wanting to map out a calendar for the next year because then we had to go produce all this material and get it out to all the restaurants so that and all the marketing and all everything had to be ready within a tough month, December holidays, right? That we had to get locked and loaded. So as we were kind of mapping this out, we were just kind of brainstorming and and and one voice kind of sheepishly rose and and with hand raised said, I have an idea. And I said, Oh, well, what is it? He said, Well, what if we called this was the year 2020 of all years? 2020 is the year of originality, and we position ourselves as this, you know, great organization that can give you a wonderful meal that's as original as you are. We were a salad concept with over 60 different varieties of fresh, flavorful ingredients. You can create a salad as original as you are. And she had this that this idea. We started, you know, excitedly rushing up and putting down what we want to do in the first quarter, and then maybe what we could do in the second quarter and different ways of demonstrating originality. You know where that idea came from? It wasn't our ad agency or someone on my marketing team or me. It wasn't someone from our PR agency, it was our executive chef. So the point is, had we not used appreciative inquiry to ask the kind of questions that got people comfortable in lifting their voice in a totally foreign environment for this young woman. And then we, if you know, had we not listened, we could have we could have created the culture in one afternoon. Instead, we built it. Not a culture, a community. Everyone came together, everyone had their hand in it, everyone excitedly got to go up the dry erase board and write up ideas, everybody got to feel part of it. So now you've got training and operations who's going to have to execute whatever we came up with. They're invested in it because they were in there on the ground floor. And so that's what I mean by creating communities of belonging and using artificial intelligence to do what it's best at, but don't forget the human factor. Appreciative inquiry for getting that shared wisdom that builds on top of just scaled knowledge.

Rhonda Jolyean 38:40

You know, I haven't thought about appreciative inquiry for years. We used to use it as a I was a former organizational change strategist, and we used to use it as just a way of, you know, beginning to understand our clients and relationship building. But I love your analogy of AI to AI. I'm gonna steal that probably.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

You know, back in the 80s, you're not old enough, but there was the pork council that came up with this idea as their agency was cooking this pork, you know, barbecuing this pork loin or whatever over a weekend, and it looked like chicken, and and chicken was all the rage. And so they called it pork, the other white meat.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

And and and talked about all of its health benefits and all this and all that. So I look at appreciative inquiry as the other AI. Yes, the human AI.

Rhonda Jolyean 39:30

Yes. And I mean, Katie and I talk about all the time how humans are hard. And as we become leaders and managers, even though we don't like that term, but as we move up in leadership roles, you don't lose that humanity. You can't lose that humanity. And so you have to have that shared wisdom. You have to remember what you would have wanted when you were in an executive chef role, or you know, to have that shared wisdom is so much more powerful. So I think to remember those things as technology, as we leverage technology more as just

Belonging Over Culture And DEI

Rhonda Jolyean 40:10

tools in our lives is so important. And on that note, a lot of what you talk about is, you know, joyful and love. And so my last question to you is about hope. So, what gives you hope about the future of leadership, even in this dark time or this dark season?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Well, I think the the good news is I'm not alone. I'm really proud of the books that I've written and the hard-earned wisdom that I've gained and that I've just decided to share. But I'm not alone. There are other people out there saying basically the same thing, maybe in a different way. But I go back to that research that says 89% of millennials and Gen Z want purpose in their work. And that means they're going to adopt this stakeholder value model that some of us old dogs didn't grow up in, you know, with all about, you know, shareholder value. And I think that they're going to be able to replace as they move up the ranks, a unsatisfying status quo that none of us enjoyed, but had to, we didn't have options, you know, as as they do today. And I think that gives me hope that says we may not get old dogs to learn new tricks. Some will, and some will just say, I'm I'm I'm too old to change my my my way of managing. I'm just gonna wait till I retire and let somebody else figure this out. But I think we've got some that will, and some that are getting on board because they're smart and they they read the you know, the tea leaves and they see different companies that that like I cited in my book, and it's all there. It's it's in in in you know the public domain that they can see there's a different way to get at the same result, if not a better result, that is more humanistic, that treats people as whole people and not just workers or employee ID numbers or God forbid FTEs, right? And I think that gives me hope that we will someday understand the value of leadership. Leaders have the opportunity to change the world. And I say that and it sounds dramatic, but it's true. You think about governments, not really all that good at getting after some of the ills in the world, right? Religious organizations and nonprofits can can only do so much. Businesses have an opportunity to get after many of the things that challenge our future, right? And you think about Patagonia, what what a wonderful example if you study what they've done throughout their whole business ecosystem, that's that's that stakeholder value approach. And and they rose up the ranks in the outdoor gear uh world when they weren't the biggest, but they became the biggest because of that approach. And it's more smart leaders study others who paved the way before them. I think the path that they get to walk down is brighter.

Dr. Katie 43:18

So many good nuggets. So many good nuggets. Well, and as we are wrapping up the show, it our our our whole mission on the path to leadership is to have have advice and and immediately applicable things that leaders can do. So, what would be a piece of advice that you would give leaders for for their journey as they are trying to grow and be stronger leaders?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Yeah, that's a great question. And there's probably many answers, but I think the one that just pops to mind is I remember maybe back in the 90s, there was a great movie called Glengarry Glenn Ross, and it featured Alec Baldwin, Jack Lemon, and just a really cast of one wonderful character. Characters. And then the character Alec Baldwin played was this kind of demanding, you know, sales leader. And he was going to this regional office and he stands up in front of everybody and he's got a dry erase board and he's got written on it, ABC. He said, Let me tell you about ABCs. The ABCs of sales always be closing. So I thought of that. It was very powerful. But I said, you know, I do love me some wordplay. Instead of closing, what if it was always be curious? So I think we need to ask more questions. Talking about appreciative inquiry, the art of asking questions, but so often we get in such a rush to judgment and we got to get this thing done and we got to move forward and we got to move fast. Instead of just pausing and asking, what's the question behind the question? And is there another one after that? And some would say when you ask why five times, you may get at the root of an issue. And I think if we do that, we'll make better, more educated, and informed business decisions and we'll get more people engaged in that process.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Einstein said, when you stop learning, you start dying. So when you're curious and you ask questions and you genuinely want to learn, I think you'll see that that path, again, will be brighter as you walk down it going forward.

Dr. Katie 45:22

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love it. Well, and we talk about it all the time. I know Mark, you and I have talked about it. You know, leadership isn't about a title that you hold, it's really about the impact you leave behind. We've talked about your purpose and legacy. There's just so much to it. So we appreciate your time. We encourage everyone to go buy your books and to reach out and connect. We'll make sure that we put the book information in the show notes so people know who you're, how to get a hold of you, all of that good stuff. Thank you so much for spending time with us. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yeah, my pleasure, Ron and Katie. And I do invite your followers to, you know, connect with me on LinkedIn. I want to learn from you and build a relationship with you. And yes, I hope you buy a book or two. And also visit my website at markgameirrors.com where I've got now two assessment tools, one as a leader to look at that love leadership model

AI Plus Curiosity And Closing Advice

SPEAKER_00 46:20

and then answer. It takes about five minutes, there's 20 questions, your perception of how you feel like you're coming across to your team. And then there's another one for teammates, and they can take it with the same questions, just worded a little differently as to what they're actually experiencing under your leadership. And then what I do for companies is provide kind of a gap analysis to say, okay, here's where we're aligned and here's where it's positive, and here's where maybe we're aligned and it's negative, and a heat map to say these are the key priorities that are more hair on fire that you need to address to be a better, uh, more purposeful, more loving leader. And that provides now foundation for training and all sorts of good stuff that provides some tools and resources to help guide that uh that process.

Dr. Katie 47:05

That's so good. Well, we will make sure we put your website in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Awesome. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Katie 47:13

Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 47:14

And it looks like Katie might have frozen a little bit. So I will take us out. Mark, are you still there?

SPEAKER_00 47:23

I am.

Rhonda Jolyean 47:23

Okay, great. So you looked frozen there for a second. But I will, yes, we'll make sure that that's linked. We love a good assessment. So I will be taking your assessments too. And then yeah, thank you, everyone. As usual, please go ahead and download all of our there. She is, she's back. Go ahead and download all of our episodes. Please rate and review us. That really helps for people to be able to find us. Send us any feedback that you have. Katie says feedback is a gift. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Until it's given to you.

Rhonda Jolyean 48:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Inappropriately.

Rhonda Jolyean 48:02

Yeah. Exactly. But yes, we do love feedback, any type of it. And also shout out to our international followers and listeners. We appreciate all of you. And we'll have to share some stories of how actually this weekend I was at an event and I had at least five people come up to me and talk about how our imposter syndrome episode helped them at that event specifically. So I know we're getting a lot of Kansas City followers and we just can't thank our audience enough. So thank you to you all. Thank you to Mark and thank you to Kate. Shout out to our listener, Kate, who also helped connect us. And yeah, we just hope you all have a wonderful rest of your day.

Dr. Katie 48:47

Awesome. Well, and thanks, Rhonda, for picking up for me as I froze just a little bit. So we'll talk to you next time on the path to leadership. Bye, everyone. Bye.