Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
Welcome to Laughing Through the Pain: Navigating Wellness. A podcast about the wellness industry, breathwork, bio-hacking, exercise, and mental health. Designed to help regular people and practitioners find their way through the confusing, conflicting, and often untrustworthy world of wellness. While at the same time trying to make you laugh. Hosted by Richard and Andy. Richard Blake, AKA the Breath Geek, is a PhD psychologist, breathworker, bio-hacker, and amateur CrossFit athlete. Andy, aka the the funny one, has his bachelor's in psychology and helps to avoid the curse of knowledge by asking the questions the experts don’t think to answer. They want to help you avoid making the same mistakes they made while trying to make their way through all things wellness - subscribe and like the podcast now.
Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
Truth or Fate: A New Path to Authentic Connections by Dan Schreiner
Discover how the power of vulnerability can transform your relationships with our special guest, game designer Dan Schreiner. In this enlightening episode, Dan introduces us to his groundbreaking game, Truth or Fate, which combines psychological insights with the mystical elements of tarot. Learn how this unique game facilitates deep connections and personal revelations, offering a fresh perspective on modern relationships. With insights drawn from over a hundred psychology books, Dan shares how Truth or Fate can help you connect more authentically with romantic partners, friends, and family.
Explore the complexities of today’s social landscape as we discuss how Truth or Fate addresses pressing societal trends, such as the decline in emergency contacts and dating among younger generations. The game’s mechanics prioritize vulnerability and compassion, fostering a safe space for meaningful interactions. Dan also shares his journey into the relationship-building industry and his mission to create engaging, meaningful experiences that counteract growing social apathy. From the significance of nurturing relationships to the potential economic and social implications of decreasing birth rates, this episode provides a comprehensive look at the importance of human connection.
Uncover the profound impact of shared struggles and vulnerable moments through the lens of influential thinkers like Carl Jung, Viktor Frankl, and Esther Perel. We also delve into the fascinating interplay between truth-telling, unconscious beliefs, and the mystical elements of tarot and fortune-telling in Truth or Fate. Dan’s personal anecdotes and reflections bring to life the therapeutic value of curiosity, active listening, and caring in relationships. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer in the mystical, this episode offers valuable insights into how games like Truth or Fate can reveal personal truths and strengthen the bonds that connect us all.
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Hello and welcome back to Laughing Through the Pain Navigating Wellness with me, Richard L Blake and Andy Sam.
Speaker 2:Hello Andy, it's great to see you, as always, are you all right?
Speaker 1:Yes, that's fine. We have spoken to Dan Schreiner. So Dan is a game designer, effectively. So he has created this game called Truth or Fate, which is a relationship game, and it has aspects of psychology. He's read like a hundred psychology books to create this game and tarot, so it's got a bit of this kind of fortune telling type thing. So we delve into, well, the psychology of relationships, why we need help with relationships. What's happened to society that people need games to be able to form relationships as well as, uh, tarot. What is tarot is it? Is it a hoax? We ask him that is it a hoax? So you'll find out whether or not this is a big old hoax yeah, no, I love it.
Speaker 2:He's obviously very well um read and the game is so well thought out and considered. But then even he said there is an element of it that he can't explain a very positive impact that it seems to have. So there is maybe an element of magic to it as well. Who knows?
Speaker 1:yeah, he doesn't think there is some kind of magic. I guess You'll hear why he thinks there's a mechanism behind this type of thing that he explains, and he's an artist as well. His deck is beautiful. His deck D-E-C-K is beautiful. I think it's an audio feature, but if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see some of their design and it was nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it looks really well considered and, yeah, fantastic. And it's not just romantic relationships either. It can be played between friends and family as well, obviously, if you're comfortable doing so.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely All right. Well, enjoy, listener, and we will see you in about 50 minutes. Listener, want to be part of our growing community? Then follow us on Instagram at the Breath Geek and at Andy Esam for behind the scenes content, updates, snippets and more. Dan does the fact that you created a game to help people form relationships stem from wider societal problems.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course, absolutely. I mean I don't think a single game is going to solve them. I think they're compound very interesting problems, but there does seem to be a rise in the thought of individualism and a disconnect, curiosity about people and finding the value in people. So yeah, I do think it's a complex problem, but I don't know. I think, uh, people are great and I want other people to see how great people can be.
Speaker 2:I guess awesome. So could you tell us a little bit about how the game works?
Speaker 3:sure, yeah, I have a copy and I've recorded. I'll talk about what it is. So, yeah, truth or fate is a game I designed over about four years. It's based on a hundred different books about psychology and connection from various authors, but it also has a fun spin to it. It's an interpersonal, authentic, relating game. But the trick, the hook to it is, after it asks you questions, it tells your future.
Speaker 3:Like Tarot, cards was inspired by the art of Pamela Coleman-Smith and I did all the art with help from a great artist named Sarah B Moore and then designed the box and everything. But the way that the game works is it's divided into three parts the past, the present and the future. In the past, you draw cards and you do what their white side says. They have a white side and then an artistic side on the other one and then you discard the card, put it into a discard pile. In the present, you take the game, comes with a little like notepad of paper and everybody writes a message to the person to the left of them and they exchange them sight unseen and secret and it's just a nice little way to kind of clear your mind and I don't know, sort of say whatever you want to say, without any thought about judgment, because they're not going to be able to read it until they're not in your presence. It's kind of like a gift, a present in the present and in the future.
Speaker 3:You take the discard pile that you've all been doing. You turn over the card and each card has a prophecy written on the bottom of it and then a page number. So you'd lay out three cards for someone interpret what you think they mean, which is surprisingly. Even people that have no experience at all in tarot or reading they do an amazing job, especially after you play the game. And then you'd ask somebody what their favorite card is, and there's a page number on the bottom. You just turn to that page number in the book and just read what it says. And, like I said, every card is inspired by a book, so it'll give you a book recommendation as well as like what the future means. So, yeah, that's Truth or Fate. You can as well as like what the future means. So, yeah, that's truth or fate. You can play it with one person or up to eight people. It does get longer if you have a lot of people. I think eight is probably top semi and somebody you could do more if you wanted.
Speaker 2:So we're not just talking about romantic relationships here, then we're kind of talking about any kind of friendships. I mean, is there a certain level of familiarity you need to have with someone before you play this?
Speaker 3:I've played it on first dates many times. I think it's awesome for it. I've had many people say that was like the best date they've ever had. It does take a little bit, I would say, of priming. There was a study done I can't cite it directly, I remember it was from another book but it was basically found that people are more willing to answer vulnerable questions than they are willing to ask them, and so part of the design of the game is that the cards are really asking the questions you're not, and then I also spent a lot of time working on the questions to make them not so to give you an out every time.
Speaker 3:There's other authentic relating games out there, but sometimes their questions put people in the spotlight very quickly in kind of a harsh way and they don't give you kind of a way to deviate and they can also drum up some pretty heavy things that if you're not psychologically prepared to support those people, can be difficult. So I tried to keep that in mind when I was designing the card mechanics and the questions to make that so you can absolutely play it with friends and family. You can play it on a date. It's a great way to truly connect with someone and gives this sort of a simulation of an equitable, deep, compassionate conversation. That's why it'll feel magical, because there's some psychological trickery in there too, but it's all for the greater good.
Speaker 1:Mischief is a big thing for me, okay so just um, just going back to the start of your journey. So we met at the biohacking conference. You were working on a relationship stand, as obviously you are in the business of relationships, but what made you get into that? What was it that made you think, oh my God, the world is really in need of relationship help, whether it's games, whether it's workshops.
Speaker 1:I know there are statistics like in the past, in the 70s, a man or a woman could say I would have five people to call in an emergency. Now the average number is zero Dating. I know with Gen Z, supposedly they're not getting into relationships as much, they're not forming relationships as much. I'm going to look up some statistics on that as well. And then I know that the birth rate is such a big issue in that we have such an aging population that this could be a civilizational threat. I know that someone recently said South Korea is done as a country. I know that someone recently said South Korea is done as a country. It's got a 0.4 birth rate per person and they just won't have a replacement rate to deal with the older people. And I know we need to all have 2.1 children to create a replacement rate, otherwise the economy just collapses unless there's something like AI and things like that. So were those the types of things that made you think right, I'm going to take action here.
Speaker 3:I think I have a fascination with sort of common knowledge that's actually incorrect, like when you a relationship is one of the most important things to cultivate. Your relationships will, like they'll help you live longer, they'll increase your quality of life, and yet it seems like a lot of people are just kind of winging it. They're just sort of like I have friends. Sometimes I don't necessarily treat them that well or like oh, I've got a girlfriend or a wife and she married me, so my work is done. You know, it's not really the way that I look at it. It's an opportunity. Your friendships and your personal intimate relationships are an opportunity to give without an expectation of return, and to grow with someone, whether it be friendships or the people and that sense of community. We evolve in tribes and small communities and we have a huge hunger for it and a longing for it. And you can see it's actually it's one of the things I love about Truth or Fate, but it also makes me deeply sad. For the promotion for Truth or Fate, I hired a bunch of actors that hadn't met each other and I brought them into the set blindfolded and they were meeting each other for the first time and playing the game, so complete strangers opening up, and I just didn't force them to say anything, I just let them play and at the end of it it was like an hour and a half shoot when it came of like two people came three and it came of five. At the end I could not get people to leave each other because they were just like we were rapping, trying to like get out of there in production, trying to get things going, and it was like you could tell that they were so hungry for that connection and for people to just ask about them that they just didn't want to leave. In fact, like the end of Truth or Fate, you always read the last page to kind of bring people back because it can be a pretty like deep and connected experience. And so the end says thank you all for playing, for sharing your stories and giving your unique gifts. Truth or Fate is a guide, but it's also a choice for sharing your stories and giving your unique gifts. Truth or Fate is a guide, but it's also a choice. Its magic comes from people who are kind enough to ask, brave enough to listen and wise enough to care. We always hope you choose to stand for truth and kindness, always remember your future is sometimes told, but it's always made Be kind, be you begin, which is what the thing is there. But that phrase I deeply believe. Truth or Fate is a guide, but it's also a choice. It's magic comes from people who are kind enough to ask, brave enough to listen and wise enough to care. I believe that with every fiber of my being.
Speaker 3:I think it is incredibly mean to not be curious about other people, and that's something I came from the Bay Area in California, and people do not ask questions there. That's where I am. You from the Bay area in California, and people do not ask questions there. That's where I am. You can tell, yeah, yeah, they just don't ask questions. I don't I do understand it to a degree that it's like, well, we don't have time and time is money, and you know we're all kind of trying to do the best.
Speaker 3:But it's super strange to me because it's like that is all of my success came from just talking to people and asking them questions and being like, oh, how can I help you? And then there, it's like everyone's trying to status top each other and it's like you're not going to do it that way, like you can tell when you're amongst people who really get it. They're curious about other people. It's like it's a superpower and then brave enough to listen. It's like you know sometimes people will tell you things. They to listen. It's like you know, sometimes people will tell you things. They'll tell you what you actually need to hear. You actually just need to listen to it. It's like a big lesson within it is that criticism is if it's coming from a place of like anger and envy, it's bad. But a lot of times people are trying to tell you how they feel about something. So like listening to them is a valuable skill. It's not just listening, like understanding somebody.
Speaker 3:I think the number one profession that people tend to fall in love with things is psychologists, therapists, things like that. It's just because they're putting you in a state where they're actually listening to you and you can be vulnerable and open with them and it's very easy to gain a connection and then an attraction in that state and then wise enough to care. We have like a societal binge on apathy. It's also very exciting and cool to value youth and to not to kind of scoff at like expertise. You know, like there's movies where it's like scientists and I also. I find that so dumb. Like you should care. Apathy is lazy and it's weak and it's cowardly. Caring is brave People that I'm incredibly. I admire people who care a lot. I think they're amazing and it's something that I work on and try to care. So yeah, I know that's a little off the beaten path, but I hope that kind of answers your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I really like the idea that we should be asking more questions. And I wonder if the Bay Area is just because everyone here is in tech and maybe slightly neurodivergent and that's why they're so good at software engineering but maybe not so socially well equipped. But yeah, there's that story. I think it was about the wife of an aristocrat in the UK back in the 1700s. She met Benjamin Disraeli and Pitt the Younger. They were two prime ministers, not at the same time, but one after the other. When she left dinner, after sitting next to one of them, she said I left dinner and I felt like he was the most intelligent man in the world. And then she went for dinner the next night with the other guy and he asked her loads of questions and seemed like he was really interested in her. And she said when I left, I felt like I was the most intelligent person in the world. And of course, she voted for the man who made her feel like the most intelligent person in the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think people understand. One of the things I really like is that you have so much potential Every person has so much potential and you have so much potential in your ability to connect and your ability to attract. And attraction kind of gets a little muddled as a word. It can seem like manipulation, but attraction is a wonderful thing when you're leaving that curiosity behind behind. You're leaving behind a deep, wonderful ability to connect with people. That's regardless of sexuality or gender. It's like a skill, it's like a magic. That's kind of like truth or fate is it's magic, but it's based on psychology. It's a young, the Jungian, and some Adler, other psychologists and thoughts behind it.
Speaker 1:So anyway, Sorry, it was Gladstone and Israeli, not Peter Younger, Sorry.
Speaker 2:I'm failing my A-level. You're joking yourself. Yeah, I like that, it's good.
Speaker 3:I like that. That's great.
Speaker 2:Daniel, you mentioned bravery. I mean, is there a certain level of courage that it takes to actually play this game, because it sounds like it could be quite revealing and you have to be quite vulnerable, and I know some people who aren't prepared to go there in certain instances. So, yeah, what's required to actually play the game?
Speaker 3:I mean, I think anyone can answer these questions. I don't personally think that they're that. I spent a lot of time kind of tooling with them. There's probably maybe only two questions in it that I would say are vulnerable but worth exploring. One is why do you think it might be difficult to be in a relationship or in a friendship with you? That's an interesting question, but to me, if someone is not thinking about that and doesn't have any recollection of that, that's a little bit of like a red flag. It's okay to say like, oh, like, I'm good at this, but I actually like, if I was to answer that question, I would say, oh, like I can get very focused on the creative and what could be and distract myself from the present and like what is?
Speaker 3:It's very easy for me to be stuck in the future and relationships require you to be in the present with someone and be there with them, and that's a yeah, that's not the most. I mean that's probably one of the toughest questions in the deck and it's not too bad. I mean most of them it's more just about exploring your thoughts and I'm trying to kind of evoke positive emotions. Some of them are like what is your favorite memory. Or you know what's the kindest thing anyone's ever said to you, Trying to kind of evoke a positive response as opposed to like who hurt you. I don't say that, that's not a question.
Speaker 3:There's definitely a value to that, but I don't want that right away. There's definitely a value to that, but I don't want that right away. And I'm genuinely surprised. Even with people who are more reserved, or once you get kind of permission, psychological permission to be yourself and be honest, people tend to just open up. And the other cool thing is the mechanics of the cards. Let me explain this because it's a little confusing, I guess.
Speaker 3:So the cards there's like three different types of cards. It's a little confusing, I guess. So the cards there's like three different types of cards and they're all designed based off of that concept of like you're not asking the question, the card is asking the question. So it's like you want to give the person playing kind of that understanding, just based off of the mechanics. So the first card has a little like planchette, a little pointer on it, and you spin the card, just kind of like spin the bottle, and whoever points closest to they answer the question. If it points closest to you, you answer it. So it's not really you asking it, the card's asking it. In that case it's also very fun. It evokes if you ever played spin the bottle. It's a cool, emotional, pivotal moment. So it's nice to kind of bring that up in a way. And then the next card has these like three little symbols on it and you would choose somebody, and I'll just actually choose you.
Speaker 3:Andrew, if I were to give you these three words, which of these words speaks to you the most? Trap hunt or howl Hunt those words to you like hunt. And so because you said hunt, I would ask you to tell a story. Actually, by looking at me, what would you guess I want the most in life and don't have yet why? And so that would be the question I would ask you. There's no wrong answer to that, but I'm actually trying to kind of figure out psychologically what your impressions are of me just by looking at me.
Speaker 3:It's interesting. People don't ask that, but it's like people make judgments and perceptions about each other all the time and it'd be cool to know what they are. And then you just discard it and then the final one is the toughest one, but I think it's the best. I like it. These questions are a little more vulnerable, but they're not too bad. I'm going to give this one to Rich. So you choose somebody and you ask them the question at the top Rich in one word or a short phrase what is a lie that you think other people choose to believe. After you answer, pause. Then tell us why, in one word or a short phrase, a lie do you think other people choose to believe?
Speaker 1:that the life is fair and there's justice in the world wow, wow, wow, that, wow.
Speaker 3:You think a lot of people believe in that equanimity and it's not there. That's interesting. So fairness in that sense, kind of that. So because you said fairness, fairness starts with an F and I would have to read and do an activity for the group, but if you would have chosen a word that started with these letters, I would have put this back in the box and the game comes with 25 fully illustrated activities with like step by step. They're all kind of designed in a group dynamic to kind of bring people closer.
Speaker 3:I'm very, very proud of some of these. Like one of them is so freaking good, just like it's so good, like it's honestly like I love it. I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but it's so good, like it's it honestly, like I love it. I don't want to toot my heart too much, but it's so good. So, yeah, they're all designed to kind of allow you to be present with those people or to kind of give to those people. Just that one which is just as an example yeah, oh yeah, and that one, I would have to do something okay, I'm interested in the psychology of this.
Speaker 1:So I know you said a lot of the time the questions are designed to elicit a positive emotion, but actually as well negative emotions can really bring people together, Negative experiences, like war veterans. They say that I was closer to the people in my unit than I was with anyone else, with my wife, with my family. Sebastian Jung has written this amazing book called Tribe. All about this. Crossfit brings people together because people suffer together. Grief brings people together. Talking more about the psychology, how did you come up with these questions? Was there the idea of struggling together to bring people together?
Speaker 3:I mean, a lot of the questions are derived partially from the books that they're inspired by, and then the art as well is inspired by that, and the fortunes and stuff for each one. There's a hundred different cards and a hundred different books from people like Esther Perel, the Gottmans, carl Jung, viktor Frankl all sorts of folks Books that changed my life and helped me kind of see another side to things, and a duality in things. That's something that happens within Truth or Fate. That I guess. Yeah, I'll say this, there's a duality in the cards.
Speaker 3:Even though it's funny as a name Truth or Fate kind of like truth or dare it actually has a deeper meaning, because the game was inspired by a quote by Carl Jung that said until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And when I heard that quote it felt like I was getting slapped in the face by the universe and I thought, wow, that is interesting. So it's like, okay, truth, are you willing to tell the truth within the moment or are you pushing your life to fate? Are you pushing it to the unconscious and say I'll handle it? And that's a tough question, it's not an easy one to answer. I think there's a duality and even in those vulnerable questions, the darker questions, there's kind of a light. You can see something positive in that and then even sometimes in the purely sugar-coated happy questions, there's a bit of a darkness too. To say, okay, what does this person value and has it connected? There was the 36 questions to fall in love that was developing in mind.
Speaker 3:The two sociologists I think came out of like in the New York Times and I think it was great. But I think psychologically they made a huge misstep. Because if I approached both of you and said, hey guys, let's get together, let's ask each other these questions to fall in love, you'd be like what? So? Like what are you talking about? Same with a lot of authentic relating games. If you're going going to play it with someone, the value proposition of the game is not there. The difference within truth or faith that makes interesting is I can confidently say I can tell your future and we will play this game and it will tell you what your future is and give you advice on how to make your future better. And I can 100 confidently say that. And that's where the game gets crazy. It's like actually the cards that drop for people is wild. I know the secrets but it's still amazing, even to me within that. But yeah, I hope that kind of answers your question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you mentioned truth-telling and making the unconscious conscious. So how does the game combine that truth-telling with almost an element of can we call it fortune telling?
Speaker 3:sure. I mean the cards are divided into four different categories for the fortune sides, and that also plays in the mechanics as well. Oh, that's a good one. So there are truth cards, truth fortunes basically, which are like kind of life advice that you would give pretty much to anybody. There are fate cards, which are all dedicated to unconscious beliefs that could destroy you. It even has there's a card for each one of the four horsemen. Are you familiar with that From the apocalypse?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh well, there's the apocalypse, but no, I mean the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Uh, no, I'm in the four horsemen of apocalypse, isn't that? Isn't that in the revelations of the bible?
Speaker 3:yeah, pestilence and, uh, I don't know, famine, I don't know. There's a bunch of them. The one I'm talking about is actually john and julie gottman set up this uh apartment in their organization and they would film couples over the course of like 20 years and John determined that there were these four characteristics that would destroy any relationship if they were left unchecked. And those are the four horsemen and I think people should know what they are and why they're so dangerous. And that's kind of their unconscious kind of beliefs and ideals in truth or faith. And there's a card for everyone. Then there's choice cards which will say that there's like a choice coming up in your life so it will split what are the four horsemen?
Speaker 1:yeah, asking for a friend.
Speaker 3:Yeah it's good you want to know. Yeah, yeah, I'll. The first one that I actually pulled the card for was defensiveness. That's not me, no, I knew it. How could it be? That's one of my favorite jokes of a friend who says anytime somebody says the word, he'll just like scream. That's not what gaslighting means. I love that. I think it's such a funny joke. But the next one is contempt. And then the third one I can find all of them is stonewalling and the final one is criticism. Stonewalling, contempt, criticism and defensiveness, and by understanding how you kind of fall into them and the truth of the unconscious beliefs about them and stuff, I think is the way that you kind of overcome them. And they're dangerous, not just in intimate relationships, they're dangerous to your friendships as well. I would say. But then yeah, big time. Those are the four.
Speaker 1:The four big ones. Okay, so moving on to tarot, as my Spanish wife would call it. I love that, yeah.
Speaker 3:So what is tarot? Well, tarot, funny enough, comes from Italian word tarosi, which means foolishness. It's a long, long history of magic through foolishness. That's the actual origin of tarot. That's why it's tarot but not tarot. But I like when people say tarot, I think it's adorable. But the idea behind it was there was originally you know, the standard cards, diamonds, and there was originally like a parlor set of cards that had kings and queens or whatever, and people developed this system Italians that would say that would kind of fortune tell based off of the sign of the card. And then this was developed further by these people named Rider Waite and I'll always mention Coleman because I think her art was amazingly important to this as well and they developed an entire occult arcana system to explain things. But the idea behind it I would say there are two sides. Once again, there's a duality to it. As it is. Actually, this is a good way to explain the story. Part of Truth or Fate came from.
Speaker 3:I love planning experiences and stuff for people and I started by planning dates, actually planned and made a date for someone, and after I planned that first date, I was like something magical happened here. This was, and it was me and it was them, but it was something else. It was like a mini golf date and I planned like made a card game to accompany mini golf. So if we like, if somebody like won the hole, they would get a question. And then afterwards we went to dinner and then the only way you could ask the question back is if you answered like a dare. So I had like two decks. It was kind of very simple mechanics, but that night was like the person was like I felt amazing, that was awesome, thank you. And I was like wow, this is interesting. I'm going to keep doing this. I'm learning from it and I did. And one of the dates I planned was an arrow archery date, where I made these like targets and wherever the arrow I like do archery on the side. So wherever the arrow landed, we would go and do that activity. Like I made special targets. So it's like the arrow was kind of like a fate date, a date decided by fate, and one of the arrows landed.
Speaker 3:I'm going to go see a fortune teller together. I'd never done that before. This was like five years ago now. So it was like five years ago now. So it was like okay, cool, I was like I'd heard it was recommended to go with a date to a fortune teller. This would be great. So we did this like cute little, like yellow house in Campbell California. We live in South Bay Well, maybe she's still there, I don't know.
Speaker 3:She had a huge impact on my life from this and so I like sat down and I'm like pretty aware of improv and cold reading decent at it. So I'm like I'm gonna get cold read. This will be cool. And this person's gonna like see that I'm on a date. They're gonna alley, oop, help me out, uh. And she's like are you sure you want me to read your guys's futures? So I was like, yeah, sure we're together. And she's like, okay, and so we sit down and she turns over a couple of cards. She looks at me and says you put more effort into relationships than anyone you've ever met before. Until you meet someone who puts in the same amount of effort, you're not going to be in love with them, you're not in love with her and you never will be. Wow, absolutely destroyed the date.
Speaker 3:This was third date. I've had a lot of goodwill, but just absolutely killed that date. Like I mean, it was like the entire mood, energy, everything changed and it was we kind of left in the wake of it. She also said some very kind of personal and pretty accurate things about a date and I was kind of like just bewildered by it, although I understood it and part of like my way of understanding it was developing truth or fate. So it was like what happens within tarot card reading is somebody reads cards for you. You believe that what they are saying is true and then it comes true and then it comes true and that, if you understand the mechanics of that, people put way too much emphasis on that someone's reading your truth. They should put more emphasis on that. You believe what they're saying is true and how it changes your life. That's where all the magic happens within tarot.
Speaker 1:So so is that like law of attraction. Then is that what's at work?
Speaker 3:there kind of it's a little bit of both. There's once again psychology and magic together. There's this effect in psychology called the barnum for effect we were.
Speaker 1:What is that from barnum and barnum statements and the circus. You know, it was the film.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah for sure, every person's a sucker, but it actually. The four part is more interesting to me and it's also kind of sad and so I like it as a story. So Forer was a psychologist and at the end of one of his semesters he's a professor he said I've been analyzing my entire class this entire semester. I'm going to hand you all a piece of paper based off of my analyzations and I'll tell you like you tell me how accurately I analyzed you. So he handed out a piece of paper. Everyone was like, oh my gosh, I think he averaged like a 97%. It was in the 90s, very high. The people were like, wow, you're like the real deal. The thing is he wrote the exact same thing on everybody's piece of paper.
Speaker 3:And there is a reality, a profile in that enforcer's profile that everybody adheres to. And if you can vaguely kind of speak confidently within that profile, it will apply to anyone. And also our brains, psychologically, are primed to want to align. When somebody tells us something about ourselves, we want to believe that it's true. I mean even just law of attraction, aside from a perfect perspective. If I tell you today, blue cars, blue cars, blue cars, you will see blue cars. You always saw them before, but you didn't notice them. You're just priming your mind to kind of look for that truth and to follow that pathway, and that's really where, psychologically, the magic comes from. But there are some weird things too when you get into this community and the way that people have, like, dedicated their lives to it, and I've met people who run giant companies who run their decisions based off of tarot cards, which is wild, but it's interesting in that regard. So I don't know if I'm taking that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, some people are going to think this is Tarot's a hoax. I recently watched got into Peaky Blinders in there in one episode Not a spoiler alert but one of the ladies goes to a fortune teller and she tells her this thing and then she really believes it and she's crying because there's terrible things happened. And then this other gypsy a gypsy family, another gypsy comes and tells them did you go to see that fortune teller? Oh yeah, everyone knows about it, because what they do is they find out what you already believe and then just confirm it. So it is like it is a trick, it's not magic and things like that. So how do you defend tarot against people who would accuse it of being a hoax?
Speaker 3:I, people who would accuse it of being a hoax. I think the thing that's tough is that there are two sides to everything. I like when people discuss both sides. I find that interesting. So on the one side, absolutely You're putting people in a very vulnerable situation because I know psychologically both of you are primed right now that if I spoke confidently about your futures, you would, even if you didn't want to, subconsciously you'd probably partially believe me, especially based off of even if I had like a perfunctory Sherlock Holmes level. You know, if I had like a low skill and I could kind of put it together, you would want to believe it. And it's also an interesting, it's a very satisfying thing to be analyzed in that way.
Speaker 3:On the other side of it, I think there's nothing more dangerous to people than the things that they leave unsaid and having somebody in your life that you can talk to openly and honestly whether that be a therapist, I think, who's better trained for it or in a lot of cases, that's what these tarot readers become. Is they become this sort of thing for people to talk about their future and hopes for the future and other stuff like that. Now, is that right or wrong? Especially if you're like manipulating them and say, oh, you need to come back to me. I don't like that, but I do like the idea of people being honest and thinking about the decisions that they have to make in the future and future to themselves. I think there are therapists who are manipulative and we're like, well, you need to come back to me. I think that's something my dad likes to say. Is what do you call the guy that graduated bottom of this medical class?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my doctor, Dr Blake.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:So I think I mean I'm a believer in the five agreements probably soon to be six when they discover new ones but one of them is to listen but be skeptical, and I think that that's a valuable thing to do is to say, oh wow, like there is good in this, there is bad in this, and I would say that that's true of a lot of things. The thing that I will say that I've been Absolutely surprised and delighted by is the tarot community has been incredibly welcoming and inviting to me, and I haven't gotten any of the gatekeeping or any of the stuff that I really did expect to see. People are incredibly enthusiastic and are, like, very excited about the deck that are in the space, and I'm very honored and actually very happy about that. It's very, very, very cool. It's nice to feel that way instead of feeling like, oh, like I made a deck too, and I don't want people to be mad at me for that.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if that answers question overall yeah, well, I have done quite a bit of sort of you know, not necessarily, not necessarily tarot, but you know, psi ability type thing. I did like an eight week program at the Royal Institute not of chartered surveyors, I did do that separately the Royal Society for like psychic ability it was founded by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who wrote you know, my wife's done quite a lot of that stuff. She's in like a mediumship group, or she was when she was in London, and she often does readings for our friends and family. Wow, I'm still on the fence, though. I'm not sure whether or not it is just people being very skilled at reading someone and telling them what they want to hear, or if there's actually some kind of magic, psychic ability. And I've read a lot of work by. I've forgotten all the books' names, but I've read a lot of books on this stuff and I'm still not convinced. So are you convinced that there's something magical happening and that some people have magical abilities?
Speaker 3:I can't definitively say. I don't really fully know. I understand the value of like having a firm belief and like standing up for a belief and things like that. When someone says, oh, there's no, I would say I'm more agnostic than anything. When someone says there's no fricking way or whatever, it's like actually there absolutely is a possibility of it, does it mean that I'm going to like change my life completely for it or like not, you know, listen and still be skeptical? No, but I do think diminishing the power of belief in that regard would be a mistake.
Speaker 3:I mean, a placebo effect is insane, something just based off of belief that is studyable again and again and again and it's accepted as fact and yet people think about it in medical terms it's like, well, it could completely apply to your life and the way that you address things. And that alone my partner went through like a side K experience, like a course work with the class, which is like kind of modifying psychologically your deep beliefs and trying to kind of reprogram the way you think and believe on a deep level. And I find it to be your beliefs kind of form, your thoughts, which form your actions, which then form your beliefs again, and it's this little sort of cycle and so I don't want to diminish that relationship and the power of that, because I have experienced some weird things with belief as well, things when I'm like I've read Power of the Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy, interesting to me, entire Joe Dispenza's work and there's other. There's just stuff that is just it's strange and you could obviously there's everyone should do work within correlation versus causation as well, a grain of salt. But at the same time I think it's interesting.
Speaker 3:I think that it seems like the more we know, the more there's a lot of space within the unknown and I don't want to definitively say, oh, it's bullshit, I don't believe any of it, because it's like I don't know, it's a strange thing to see, oh, it's bullshit, I don't believe any of it, because it's like I don't know it's a strange thing to see so as rich was asking that answer.
Speaker 2:But no, no, I was thinking. As rich was asking that question, I was reminded of one of the many retreats that he sent me on. Rich sent me on this one thing called the path of love and it's been meticulously put together and honed in. There's a lot of psychological research that sits behind it. Parallels to your game in so much as you put so much you said like 100 psychology books, so much has gone into it and yet there's still that level. Even the organizers of path of love don't understand. They say it brings out some sort of magic they have no answers to. And in the same way you said there were those moments in your games and maybe when you got those actors in to launch the game, you just thought what is happening here? So is that what we're talking about here?
Speaker 3:yeah, I've been very fortunate and lucky enough to have lived like 37. But I've had a lot of different experiences and stuff and it was in the bay area as a motion designer and event designer and other stuff and then moved over here and with part of a bunch of like artistic miscreants and things like that out there. But you'd come across stuff and one time I was giving a friend a ride to like a christmas party in the bay and he was like you should go to this workshop. I just think you should go. And I was like getting culty vibes from what you're saying. But I was like I'm gonna go, I'm gonna say yes and see what it was. And the group was the Human Awareness Institute out in.
Speaker 1:Northern Ireland. Oh yeah, I went to a taster session of those in the UK Big culty vibes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my experience of that workshop I was very impressed with the way that they laid it out and there was a sense of magic over that weekend.
Speaker 3:It's literally just people talking to each other and connecting on a very deep level and it's just people are just starving for it. It's sad, but it's just that people are really starving for it. And, like I said, that quote was something I thought of while I was there that it's very dangerous to you to leave things unsaid and so like having someone in your life that you can talk to and you trust whether it be friends, therapists, your family or something I think is a really important thing. And if that's a tarot person as well, I would just hope that that person was kind enough to listen and also be kind and not manipulate them. But I have seen both ways within that. But, yeah, I would recommend Human Awareness Institute. By the way, I was a little afraid of that as well. I was like I'm going to be on their mailing list and they're going to tell me to wear white linens and leave my family behind, and I was like I've been around folks like that before but didn't seem that way, at least at the workshop and stuff.
Speaker 1:I was very impressed with it and it was a great experience for me, okay yeah, no, I just went to like afternoon in london and we just I don't know, maybe it's just the people there were. Just you know, you don't have to like everyone, so maybe we just had a bad group. So, andy, I won't be sending you on that one, so you're welcome.
Speaker 3:How did that go? And that was the other-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really good yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, path of Love. Yeah, that's in Boulder. Well ahead of it is in Boulder. I just had lunch with him the other week. I would definitely recommend Path of Love, yeah, but I just want to pick up on the point where you say people are starving for connection. That's definitely true. A lot of people are.
Speaker 1:However, I do have some friends who are not starving for connection and they don't see the value of friendship and relationship. I know one of them will be listening to this and I'm always trying to tell him you should have some more friends. He's got three kids and a wife and he's got a very happy family and he loves his routines and he's very healthy and he does his ice baths and triathlon family and he loves his routines and he's very healthy and he does his ice baths and triathlon. Also, he lives abroad, he lives in China, and he doesn't have the same camaraderie as he would with his school friends. So why do you think people should have relationships? Because I'm always struggling to say, like you should have more friends, and he's just like why Are they annoying me? Like it's really hard to organize things with them? I'm much better when I'm just in charge with my family and they provide social connection.
Speaker 3:I don't need any for it I love the quote from uh james clear that you won't rise to the level of your goals, ambitions or dreams, but you'll fall to the level of your systems. So he's created a social system within there, within his family, and that's like providing him with that emotional connection. So far, however, if that falters, if that's your single source of emotional connection, and it absolutely can, or like you might, do something destructive or be unaware that you're doing something destructive within those, without context of other people and exposure to other relationships, friendships and things like that, and as you get older, it's just there's nothing, I know. It's sort of like oh my gosh, the effort, the effort to, especially in today's day and age, the flakiness is unreal, unbelievable, but it is part of truth, or faith's understanding is that giving is not really giving. It's like you will receive. You just have to kind of keep really giving. It's like you will receive. You just have to kind of keep believing and giving to those relationships from a place of kindness and be realistic, listen, but be skeptical and say, okay, like is this person just using me in this case? And should I like, do I? I should talk to them about that if I'm feeling this way. But on the other side of things, your friendships will open up entire gateways like lives that you just never would have imagined. Friends I met, I got into event planning because of a friend of a friend, and then my entire career, any of my wealth and stuff came from just chasing that down. I would consider myself heavily introverted, but I can't deny the positive, gigantic effect that other people have had on my life, and I mean as much as he's had probably gigantic negative effects from some people. I would bet if you talk to him there was probably some people, including yourself, that have had a grand effect and it's like well, why wouldn't you want more of that and more of a perspective? Relationships become these mirrors to us that we can't see things about ourselves that other people can clearly see.
Speaker 3:There's a comedian and a writer that I follow named Dan Harmon, and he has a friend, an amazing writer, creator friend, named Rob Schrapp, who did this awesome graphic novel and they went to this acting class together one day and I thought this was brilliant. The premise of the acting class was that you get typecasted as a certain role and you shouldn't try to fight against that. You should try to figure out what that role is and then lead into it, which is very smart If you think about it. People are trying to do it and so he said what they did was you would walk into a room and people tell you their first impressions of you. And he said you know, they're in like tiny little groups. And his friend Rob he heard him in another room saying I'm not C-3PO. I was like very mad about it, but that's exactly what C-3PO would say and I thought that was so funny and interesting that it's like, oh, like you.
Speaker 3:The value you get from seeing yourself from other people's eyes is insane. I used to hate criticism. I love criticism. The best possible things come from like why did Rich feel this way about me? Why did Andrew think this? What was that about? And instead of just being like, ah, he's a dick or whatever, to truly understand that, you will find gold, like absolute gold, the people that have chased that. They've made entire careers for better or for worse, and I think it's a wonderful thing and that's only established through people. So, from an economical standpoint, from a social standpoint and also medical standpoint, there's I'm sure there's tons of documentation about how your relationships extend your life and they're important to your ecosystem. Personally, people are good people are good.
Speaker 1:Hell is other people, according to john yeah, that's one funny.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd say like both. I think there's just a value in duality and looking at both sides of it, because certainly there are. It's uh, I remember who said that originally, but it's like you feed the wolf, like you have two wolves inside you and you you feed the one that helps you. I like that idea is that you're like, okay, like I can absolutely look at this both ways and I'm comfortable looking at this both ways, but I have to kind of see it. See, there are human atrocities that are insane and people are capable of absolutely terrible, horrible things, but they're also capable of wonderful things and your life and the life's further. So it's like, what would you like like to do? Would you like to live in that world or would you like to try to support and encourage the positive wolf? I guess in my mind it's hard to say, hard to do, but yeah, I like sartre too.
Speaker 1:So yeah, the two wolves. I think it's a native american parable. I've got it here. Actually, just chat gbt. I'm going to read it, sorry. A grandfather tells his grandson about a battle between two wolves inside everyone. One wolf represents evil, including anger, envy and greed. The other wolf represents good, including joy, peace, love and hope. The grandson asks which wolf wins? The grandfather replies the one you feed. So there you go, that's story time very good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's good I like I mean I really can say one of the books that's recommended in truth or fate is by brown o'weiss. It's called 101 essays. To change the way you think that's a phenomenal book. She just kind of lists it out and some of them are gut punches. One of them that was really valuable to me is she said okay, I want you to like write out the things, the behaviors, beliefs, the things that you see on the people that you hate or dislike, and really spend time to do it. And then you guys almost all know this, you can sense it. She's like okay, how are these mirrors and things that you see in yourself? Yeah, and you're like, ugh, and that is a very valuable. I mean, that's a very.
Speaker 3:When I feel those negative things greed, envy, jealousy, anger instead of viewing them as like negative things, I kind of view them as indicators of like what do I need to sort of see in myself that's happening here and what can I kind of learn from that?
Speaker 3:And the same I would say on the other side of it.
Speaker 3:I've just been reading this book called like I think it's called hacking american minds, basically talking about how, as a society, we've kind of lost the connection between pleasure and happiness like that. There's a big separation between those two and I don't think maliciously, but I think just because it worked. We developed as a society ways of getting people to buy more, consumerism and also to selling to individuals as opposed to selling to groups. Because if you think about it from a business standpoint, that makes more sense sell to the individual, you make more money, but that diminishes the power of groups and the power of communities, and people sense it. You can just tell when they're in a communal thing they're like oh my god, why can't life always be this way? And it the truth is it, can you just have to kind of believe in it and support it that way, so kind of police it in your yourself and then and other people, I guess yeah, all right I can say it's clear your interests extend far beyond truth or fate, although it's awesome that you're launching that soon.
Speaker 2:So can you tell us a little bit more about your kind of your future, what you're working on next?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean truth or fate. It's already out, it's in stores and you can buy it on truth or fatecom if you want. I'm doing everything myself, so so it'll be me shipping it to you. But yeah, it's been really cool. It's gone over all over the world and people have great feedback. I want to.
Speaker 3:I'm in the process of creating a follow-up game based on the things that I've learned. That acts as an expansion to it, but also there's a standalone game very exciting. I'm not going to talk too much more about it, but I'm going to try to get a kickstarter out by this year I think by the end of this year for that one and I think it's very cool, it's tested really well and, uh, I like it a lot. Once again, learn from your criticisms, don't be mad about them. Truth or fates All of its good things came from criticisms. I also have other games that I'm designing and working on more med spaces. I work with Spectra Artspace in Denver. They do little art spaces in their back of house house and then they sell artist merch in the front, and I think there's a lot more potential within immersive art experiences, and I like making board and card games. I have other games that I'm in development for that have nothing to do with tarot but are more developed to try to create positive social experiences with friends and loved ones and stuff like that. Create positive social experiences with friends and loved ones and stuff like that. I think there's a lot of space within authentic relating games for improvement with game mechanics and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's pretty much most of it. Yeah, and how do people find you? I run all the Truth or Fate stuff truthorfatecom, truth or Fate on Instagram, tiktok, while it's still around. I need to put more content to that. I'm a pretty busy person. I also animate under the name shiny and shiny posts, so I'm a professional animator and illustrator designer. And then, yeah, we'll be having a lodge party for truth or fate in Denver within the next couple of months. That'll be really fun. I'll be designing all the next couple months. That'll be really fun. I'll be designing all the experiences there and that'll be cool. But, yeah, you can reach me at any of those things. It's all me clicking away.
Speaker 2:So awesome, fantastic. Well, best of luck with all of it. I'll um be following closely and, um, yeah, thanks so much for giving your time. It's it's a fascinating concept and nothing out nothing else like it out there, so, yeah, I'm sure it'll do well. Welcome back, listener. Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Um rich. What do we learn?
Speaker 1:I learn a lot. I learned that relationships matter and friends are good and we need more friends because we'll be happier, healthier. Uh, I learned about the four horsemen.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say I did love that bit, I know I was like there's a tick box, exercise in what rich does in his relationship. The four horsemen, yeah, um, yeah, that was so he wasn't gonna go there and then suddenly you're just like um, what are the four horsemen? Um, that really interesting. Yeah, I love the um. I love when he described the uh moment with the actors when they kind of didn't want to break from the game because it was just so um, I guess, so meaningful. So makes me really want to play it. Maybe you and I should play it one time, mitch, yeah we should, yes, we should.
Speaker 1:When next time we're in person, maybe I'll buy Dan's game and we'll get even closer and get into that in some regard, I can leave it there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, okay, it made you awkward enough. Yeah, yeah, but it's also very compelling. You know, you think if he puts that much effort and um thought into that kind of game and it has that kind of impact, you know where, where is he going to go next? Because he's obviously someone who's got such varied interests and such a wealth of knowledge. So I'm intrigued. He's only he said he's 37, so lots more to come.
Speaker 2:Very young, I turned 37 yeah, exactly I've got a vested interest in thinking that obviously so have you. But uh, no, it's a very cool dude and, um, yeah, he's, uh, he's in colorado. So I guess, if any of our listeners uh want to check out those spaces that he mentioned, uh make sure you do that yeah, absolutely all right.
Speaker 1:Well, thank listener Andy. Where do they find us?
Speaker 2:Oh, great question. Laughing through the pain and navigating wellness on all good and bad podcasting sites. Rich is at the Breath Geek on Instagram, I am at Andy Esam and Rich has got a website which is richardlblakecom.
Speaker 1:And thebreathgeekcom. Yeah, you nailed it. They're both right, I'm just kidding. Okay, Just running. And how could the listener help us if they liked our show? Andy?
Speaker 2:Leave a review, ideally with five stars or the equivalent, on whatever podcasting thing you're looking for, and leave some words as well. Words are always helpful and, as we just learned from Daniel, we learned from criticism as well, so if you've got any comments, send them our way. Don't be afraid Pull us up on anything. Ideally not in the review.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am very sensitive to criticism, so if you do criticize me, expect to be criticized back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Criticize Richard through me and I will filter it in a way that I think he can understand. Thanks so much for listening, always looking to improve and hopefully shining some light on some great people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, thanks listener, thanks Andy, and thanks Dan, see ya, bye-bye.