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Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
Welcome to Laughing Through the Pain: Navigating Wellness. A podcast about the wellness industry, breathwork, bio-hacking, exercise, and mental health. Designed to help regular people and practitioners find their way through the confusing, conflicting, and often untrustworthy world of wellness. While at the same time trying to make you laugh. Hosted by Richard and Andy. Richard Blake, AKA the Breath Geek, is a PhD psychologist, breathworker, bio-hacker, and amateur CrossFit athlete. Andy, aka the the funny one, has his bachelor's in psychology and helps to avoid the curse of knowledge by asking the questions the experts don’t think to answer. They want to help you avoid making the same mistakes they made while trying to make their way through all things wellness - subscribe and like the podcast now.
Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
The Science of Personalized Nutrition and Biohacking with Michael Donovan
Ever wondered how to laugh through the pain while optimizing your well-being? Michael Donovan, a dedicated fitness expert with a rich background in cancer research at the National Institute for Health, joins us to share his disciplined approach to life and fitness. He offers valuable insights into the importance of personalized supplements, revealing how individual needs can vary significantly. Michael's journey from the NIH to focusing on public health and wellness programs provides a captivating narrative on the significance of habits and follow-through actions.
Discover the emerging trends in biohacking with a focus on Fatty 15 and Specialized Pro-Resolving Mediators, which are making waves, especially in military applications. We'll navigate the paradox of combining modern advancements with ancestral health principles, stressing the irreplaceable role of basics like sunlight, exercise, and nutrition. Michael also delves into the intricacies of balancing electrolytes and hydration, sharing his homemade hydration drink recipe and explaining the physiological principles behind electrolyte balance.
Finally, we explore the realms of exercise performance optimization through personalized nutrition, contrasting the needs of endurance athletes with those in strength-based sports. Michael discusses the environmental stressors affecting health, such as mold and EMFs, and offers practical tips for reducing exposure to these risks. By the end of this episode, you'll gain a comprehensive understanding of how advanced biohacking practices can supplement foundational health habits, providing a well-rounded approach to enhancing your well-being. Don’t miss out on Michael’s practical advice and inspiring journey!
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction and Personalization of Supplements
00:52 Foundational Supplements: Protein and Caffeine
02:34 Creatine, BCAAs, and Other Essential Supplements
05:04 Debate on BCAAs vs. EAAs
12:18 The Role of Electrolytes in Performance
18:57 Optimizing Nutrition for Different Types of Exercise
28:10 CrossFit and Ironman: A Fitness Journey
28:35 Nutrition Strategies for Endurance and Strength
31:43 Mountain Biking: The Ultimate Challenge
34:10 Transition from CrossFit to New Adventures
37:39 Quickfire Questions: Health and Wellness Insights
42:20 The Impact of EMFs and Environmental Factors
52:40 Career Journey and Podcasting
56:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
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Hello and welcome to another episode of Laughing Through the Pain, navigating Wellness with me, andrew E Sam, my co-host, dr Richard L Blake, and today he will be speaking to Mark Donovan. I hope he doesn't take too much offence.
Speaker 2:Not Mark Donovan. That's the bully from the Inbetweeners, michael Donovan, michael.
Speaker 1:Donovan Donovan, mike Donovan. Yes, we'll start that again no, I think that's fine.
Speaker 2:I think he'll be. He probably doesn't know who the in-betweeners are or the show is, or who Michael Donovan is. So sorry, who Mark Donovan is.
Speaker 1:I haven't spoken to him. The two times you've actually spoken to him, I've genuinely been unavailable and you guys have wanted to press on anyway, so I hope he doesn't take too much offense the fact I've missed both of them I.
Speaker 2:I don't think he would take offense to that. I think he would take events to being called mark donovan though, even though that show is timeless, classic I mean it is, but yeah, he is nothing like mark donovan.
Speaker 1:Thankfully he's very nice, very interesting guy and um, selfishly, I suppose I preferred this episode being that you hosted him so I've got to find out more about him. But uh, yeah, very interesting guy. I could see why you get on well um obviously very driven, very uh. Mindful of his routine, obviously a super fit guy yes, very fit.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, um, very, yeah, very, very, probably very high in conscientiousness. I took the Big Five personality test recently. Have you heard of that one?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I need to get a job about it.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, supposedly the Big Five is well, not. Supposedly, a sort of meta-analysis of personality tests was done and they found that the Big five was the most accurate in predicting. Uh, you know people's, you know personalities, and they look, I can't remember. I think they looked at myers-briggs, another one, and then the um, uh, star signs, and they found that star signs. What do you think they found with star signs? Do you think good, bad?
Speaker 1:not a great predictor of anything.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go yeah they found zero correlation between person star sign and their actual uh, their actual personality.
Speaker 2:So I'm sure there'll be people who want to move the goal posts for that one and argue that star signs are are useful and accurate. Um, I do find them accurate. Sometimes I use the pattern app and that can be ridiculously accurate, but it's just. It's just much more than um, much more than just you know 12 personality types. It goes into far more detail than that, but I just think you know the horoscopes you get in the newspaper. I think that's what they were looking at. They're they're pretty broad brush and um full of barnum statements and things like that. But anyway, back to michael, I reckon he's very high in conscientiousness, um, which is supposedly the highest predictor of success. People high in conscientiousness, they tend to follow through, they make plans and they follow through with them.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's me analyzing michael, but um, yeah, what do they find out in this episode other than he's a conscientious guy?
Speaker 1:I think that I think discipline is a key theme and, um, maybe both of you like, in terms of just um, let's call it, yeah, habits, keeping to habits, um kind of yeah, as you say, following through, I think is a key theme. In terms of, just like, action speaking louder than words, I would say that's what I took away. Yes, what did you learn?
Speaker 2:most. Um, what did I learn most? Um, well, I learned that. Um, it was a while ago since I recorded this, so I'm I'm reaching a little bit. Um, I learned that michael is a great podcast guest and I look forward to many more of his podcasts because he does a podcast and you should check that one out after you listen to ours. So, uh, yeah, um, we talk a lot about biohacking. You know he's he's worked for this sort of the, the national institute for health in the us. He worked on on cancer and, um, yeah, he's putting that biohacking into good use as well. So, um, yes, all right, listener. Well, we hope you enjoy this one. Anything further to add, andy, before we let the listener?
Speaker 1:loose on on michael too much. Don't cut me out, do not leave me out yes, don't enjoy it too much.
Speaker 2:Just enjoy the intro and outro. I think that's fair, right? Yeah, okay, cheers, listener, want to be part of our growing community? Then follow us on instagram at the breath geek and at andy esam for behind the scenes content, updates, snippets and more. Michael, welcome. What are your thoughts on supplements? Are they necessary or helpful?
Speaker 3:Great first question, richard. I think anytime we talk about, I'll just say first principles, I like to start with the big picture first, and I think when we talk about supplements, the first thing I want to emphasize is personalization, and even though I'm going to, I'll answer that specifically. I think, generally, if we zoom out, what works for me, what supplements I should specifically take, are not necessarily the ones that you should take. Or anyone else that's listening should say I, you know I should take those because that's what Michael takes. Anyone else that's listening should say I should take those because that's what Michael takes or that's what Richard takes. With that said, I think the top ones that come to mind that are foundational are protein.
Speaker 3:A lot of people have a hard time eating enough protein, especially if they're doing a lot of exercise, has high intensity, or just unable to eat enough. It's really filling, right. It's really satiating to eat a steak, right. We can eat carbs all day, but fat and protein are really satiating. So protein is one that it's sometimes really beneficial. You can put it in a smoothie. You know protein powder. If you're like our friend George, you can just take a shot of a dry protein powder, you know, and there's a variety of protein sources. A lot of times we think about milk based protein sources and animal based protein sources, but there's also a lot of vegan based, especially protein powders that are great for people that eat that way.
Speaker 3:The second one that I would throw out is caffeine, and we don't even really think of that as a supplement as much because it's so ubiquitous. It's, you know, in our in our coffee every morning. But one of the things that caffeine specifically does, especially for endurance athletes, is decrease the. It has more of a psychological effect by decreasing the perceived level of effort and our perception of fatigue. So, while it does have some benefits in terms of the physiological side, it's really kind of and we've noticed the cognitive enhancement of caffeine as well. Right, we're more alert, so it's more of the perception of our intensity of effort.
Speaker 3:And then creatine and BCAAs, or branched chain amino acids, are the other two that I would mention, especially as a fellow CrossFit athlete or participant. Creatine is great, there are some cognitive benefits, but really, you know it's been around popular since the mid nineties, one of the most researched supplements, and creatine is part of the creatine phosphate metabolic system, which is short spurts of energy and so for strength and power, creatine is a great one. And then for decreasing soreness after intense workouts and increased recovery, branched chain amino acids a lot of people find are helpful. And then I'll just mention a few others that I've taken over the years. Omega-3, if you're not eating a lot of fish and things like that and getting those, it's good to have that balance of omega-3 and omega-6 in our body for anti-inflammation and joint health. Electrolytes in general and that's not just sodium, but sodium, potassium, magnesium, these kinds of things. So making sure, especially for endurance athletes, that when you're sweating a lot you're replenishing electrolytes and not just water.
Speaker 3:And then all of the supplements that fall under the immune system category, like vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, glutamine. These kinds of things are essential. In areas where it gets really cold and colds are going around all winter, like Minnesota or Colorado, it's good to sometimes boost your immune system. But those are things that I would take generally just in the winter, when there's more viruses and colds going around, just to boost your immune system. And then the final thing I'll throw out is things that affect the gut, because your gut health is tied to your overall health, and so probiotics could be good as a supplement if you're not getting that from food, especially fermented foods. And then glutamine is also good for gut health and then when there's times when you're going through really stressful experiences, things like ashwagandha and some other kind of more Eastern supplements can also, you know, mellow, mellow you out and kind of suppress the agitation at high stress times.
Speaker 2:Okay, Pretty comprehensive there. So BCAAs, not EAAs is that right? Because I've been told, or I've seen research, that BCAAs are not that effective and actually we want essential amino acids rather than branched chain amino acids. What's your take on that?
Speaker 3:I think it's. I'm not super up to date on the latest research on that and I think, again, it depends what you're eating. I wouldn't try to get all of my amino acids met by a supplement, right hairs of which supplements I should take. I would actually just look at the quality of the overall food that you're eating and try to get more from just whole foods as opposed to supplements. I think when the clients that I've worked with over the years, when they're like I'm eating plantains instead of bananas because they have less sugar, I'm like, if you're concerned with that, I'm really happy that you're. You know addressing the sugar, but relax because you're fine. Like there's not that much. You know we're not talking about processed foods and added sugar and things like that. So I think to me it's splitting hairs to really even go one direction or the other in terms of the specificity of a supplement like that.
Speaker 2:Okay, fair enough. Yeah, I take EAAs, especially when traveling and especially when I'm trying to cut, you know, lose a bit of body fat, because I've not been training much recently. So, you know, for beach season I've been trying to get into shape. Let me show you my ab. No, I'm not going to show you my ab. I've been trying to get into, to shape. Let me show you my ab?
Speaker 3:No, I'm not going to show you my ab. I will just say, for those going back to my grad school days, that there's 20 amino acids and there are some that are essential and there's some that are non-essential. And essential basically means that we can't create, we can't. They're essential that we consume them in the diet. That's what essential amino acids means. We can't make them ourselves. So there are, uh, just over half of the amino acids that we can actually make from the food that we're eating, and then those that that we can't, we have to get from our diet because our body doesn't have the ability to make them we have to get from our diet because our body doesn't have the ability to make them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's right, okay, so, yeah, well, one thing I should say about essential aminos is I take the key on ones that Ben Greenfield calls them his Swiss army knife. I have no affiliation codes for this. I'm not making any money, but Natalia, my wife, hates me taking them because they're fermented. I think essential aminos need to be fermented, so they apparently make my breath smell exceedingly bad. So, uh, yeah, if you're a single man and you're on a date, don't take the essential aminos. Maybe that's where bcaa is coming for the, for the, uh, the single man or woman. Um, okay, so you also mentioned, um, yeah, fish oil there.
Speaker 2:Have you heard about Fatty 15? Did you meet them at the biohacking conference? Fatty 15? And a separate molecule is Specialized Pro-Resolving Mediators. Have you heard of those as well? Any thoughts on those? Well, okay, no thoughts on those, but apparently I'll give you my thoughts.
Speaker 2:Apparently, this is the new hotness in fatty acids. This is the trend. I guess it's sort of refining fish oil down to this fatty 15 molecule, where there's been a lot of research, apparently with Navy SEALs, some kind of military people, and it's done wonders for them, and similarly with specialized pro-resolving mediators. So a lot of people are sort of tipping these supplements to be the next cool guys in in the biohacking world and it's funny that isn't the biohacking world. Like to be a biohacker, you have to be, you have to be able to spot the trends. It's a bit like, I don't know, being like a fashion designer, being like what's going to be new. Are you know? Is it? Are we going back to skinny jeans? No, we're going to extra baggy jeans. So it's a little bit like that. Well, my hot take for the future hotness is going to be a fatty 15 fatty acids.
Speaker 3:I will just on that segue that I think what's funny about biohacking is we're kind of going. A lot of times people I have on my podcast sometimes reference back to our ancestral selves, our caveman, going back thousands of years, all the way back to the beginning, blocking glasses and things like that. Like, even 20 years ago, people weren't necessarily working. The majority of people weren't working in front of a computer right In the nineties, you know, late at night, right? So we didn't need these things and so a lot of these things won't.
Speaker 3:There's kind of this contrast between, first principles of going back to, like the ancestral age and then things that are necessary now, in the last few decades, because our society has evolved and we're responding to new things, and so, whether it's, you know, mold in the environment, environmental things or you know EMFs or blue light, these are things that are relevant now. Right, you know a lot of the principles just getting sunlight early in the morning, you know I mean this is like this novel thing, but we were doing this for tens of thousands of years by default.
Speaker 3:We just, you know, we were up early, we walked outside and we got the benefit of things. And now we have technology, which is great to you know, mimic, this right, but a lot of these, if we go back and that's why I always take kind of a big picture approach, stepping back we're really simulating what we've been doing for millennia and we're just making it more efficient or maybe more effective. But I think if you don't work on your computer late at night, maybe you don't need to wear blue light glasses. And if you're not doing like super heavy, intense exercise and you're mostly walking or just, you know, moving throughout the day you're getting 15,000 steps a day, you're very active but you're not doing like super high intensity exercise, maybe you don't need the supplements for muscle recovery and rebuilding. And you know, and I think we can go overboard on the measurement and the tracking and the expectations of like, what is this thing going to do versus just common sense principles of kind of living in balance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah. I think some, like you said earlier, sometimes people get too obsessed with splitting hairs or majoring in the minors, when, if we're doing the basics, that really just covers the main things, the basics being, yeah, getting fresh air, getting sunlight, getting doing exercise, resistance, training, those types of things, eating well not drinking caffeine right before bed, those types of things eating well, not drinking caffeine right before bed those types of things are going to do. Maybe 95 of your progress is going to come from that and maybe five percent is going to come from the I don't know the nad supplement or the, whatever it may be. Um, oh yeah. I want to go back to electrolytes, because this is another area I'm a little bit confused about. I love the electrolytes, I love relights that's something our mutual friend, george, put me on to and we just did an episode with oryx salt, who were at the biohacking conference last week, and they do this amazing salt.
Speaker 2:But sometimes I feel like the more electrolytes I drink, the more electrolytes I need. Is that something you've ever come across before? Like, should we be drinking so many electrolytes?
Speaker 3:because I'm taking like 10 grams a day at this real life stuff, sometimes 15 grams well, I think this goes back to another kind of first principle of biology and physiology of homeostasis, right, so our body wants to maintain a range, a healthy range, whether it's blood pressure, it's you's electrolyte balance the list goes on and on of things that are maintained within a range. And if you drink a gallon of water in the next hour, you're going to be peeing for the next several hours, right, if you drink half a gallon with some electrolytes in it, you're going to retain a lot more of that. And I think understanding the physiology of electrolyte balance and of hydration is really important. And for me, my drink to stay hydrated, my homemade hydration drink includes chia seeds. Hydration drink includes chia seeds and includes some electrolytes, some salt, like a little dash of lemon, maybe a little bit of maple syrup or honey, because that helps in absorption. But the chia, if you ever like the chia pet back in the day, it kind of expands and any chia drink expands into like a gel and so that slows the filtration through the kidney. And so if you can drink like a liter or Nalgene bottle of water with chia and a little bit of salt, and again, that's my little homemade hydration drink. But it's not electrolyte heavy, it's more adjusting the filtration rate through the kidney, and I know some friends who drink coffee and they put lemon tea in their coffee. There's particularly the chocolate. They like the taste, but it also slows the the filtration through the kidneys. So the caffeine that they're drinking is kind of offset by the salt and so they stay hydrated.
Speaker 3:And so I think it goes beyond from a knowledge standpoint, beyond just you know the amount of electrolytes, and again a big picture has to be informed by how much you're sweating Are you a heavy sweater, are you a lighter sweater? And also the balance of sodium and potassium. When we talk about salt or electrolytes, a lot of times we just emphasize sodium, and that's what we can easily put on our food. We're not dumping a shaker of potassium on our food, but those are exchanged at the cellular level to a three to two ratio, and so it's essential to have both sodium and potassium. And then some of these supplements have magnesium as well, which is also important. So those are the major three electrolytes that we need to consider.
Speaker 3:And if you're eating a lot of processed foods and just eating out, in general a lot of food is very salted or contains salt for preservation. So you know the assertion that we don't eat enough salt. I think it really depends, case by case, on you know what your diet's like and if you're preparing food, you're cooking food at home and you're, you know, paying attention to what you're eating out, you may not be getting enough salt, but the majority of the population is getting probably more salt than they, than they realize yes, that drink sounds delicious.
Speaker 2:Um, are you bottling and selling that?
Speaker 2:because, yeah, I want some, although not in an algin bottle though, because that's plastic and yeah more and more I'm hearing the dangers of plastic and more and more it's getting linked to cancer and heart disease. I saw an article yesterday about doctors thinking plastics are causing this huge spike in cancers in young people. So I really wanted some plastic expert to come on here and tell me what to do about it, apart from just avoiding it. Some plastic expert to come on here and tell me what to do about it, or apart from just avoiding it. And um, yeah, that I used to do the element in the coffee, the chocolate one, but since meeting auric salt and samantha, um, I've switched to. They don't do a electrolyte, uh, chocolate one, but I think they may be doing one soon.
Speaker 2:But salt of the earth is what I've found since then. I don't know if you've heard of that, but it's, it's like a natural version of the element. So it comes with actual raw cacao powder and himalayan salt. So it's it's not just like sodium chloride, it's, it's mineralized salt and I put that in my coffee and it's pretty good actually. And, yes, do you want to add anything there?
Speaker 3:no, no, okay, good all right.
Speaker 2:So optimizing for exercise performance, so that you know you. Do you want to add anything there? No, I'm good. No, okay, good, all right. So optimizing for exercise performance. So you know, you said earlier about supplements and I totally agree that what the supplement you need is going to be different to what I need, and often I was just in theater with my wife's family and having conversations with her cousins and things. They're like what supplement should I take? Or you know, so many people ask me and I'm like, well, I don't know, like what's gonna be a better use of your time and money than just going.
Speaker 2:Oh well, I listened to a podcast and they said everyone should take b12. Um, well, are you deficient in b12? Do you have too much b12? Because I have had too much b12. I got some injections, iv, and I got too much b12. And then I got like restless leg syndrome. I was like what was going on? And then someone was like, oh yeah, your b12 way out of range and your blood. So you need to be careful. So that's why I say to people get a blood test, like a blood test. Maybe it costs like especially in spain, much, much cheaper. You know, a few hundred dollars. That's probably the same price as you know, three bottles of of supplements that you may just be putting to waste. So I think testing, you know, once a year is a really good use of your money and then you can invest in the products you need. But on that, the general population need different food nutrition supplements to high performing athletes. So what's your take on optimizing for exercise performance regarding nutrition supplements?
Speaker 3:I think it depends on the type of exercise. So if we're talking about endurance athletes versus more strength-based athletes or hybrid athletes, there's the aspect of what's sustainable. And when we're talking about a training program, if you're training for a race, that's a year out, keto is great for a lot of people. It's not sustainable for the majority, right? So there's kind of what's optimal versus sustainable. And that's one of the attractive things about supplements is it's easy to take, unscrew the cap and just take a pill versus having the discipline day in and day out for months on end to eat a certain way or exclude something. Right. And I think, again, broad strokes, excluding any macronutrient category is a challenge, whether you're trying to, you know eat, you know zero carbs. I think you know when the paleo diet came out, which is again like 20 years ago, they had a follow-up that the paleo diet was similar to keto and you know, and emphasizing meats and minimizing carbs. And they came out with a sequel book Paleo Diet for Athletes that included carbohydrates, which emphasizes, over a certain duration, the necessary, I would say, inclusion of carbohydrate sources. And that doesn't need to be, as so many triathletes and Ironman athletes and mountain bikers and I'm not just singling out triathletes, but use, you know, super highly processed they couldn't be more highly processed. You know gels and and goos and bites and you know those kinds of things. That is is truly just pure glucose in its most processed form. And when you look I always judge an exercise program or protocol or whatever by what the athletes look like. I think that's a pretty good metric. And when you look at especially those that have done it for a year or more, and when you look at CrossFitters versus Orange Theory versus bar classes or Pilates or whatever yoga, I think there's whatever your preference for body type and what you consider fit, I think fitness for me is defined as being able to do a broad array of things and and there's a high intensity element to that I mean you can walk every day and be very healthy. You can do, you know, pilates and yoga every day and and you'll be a specific type of fit, but you're not going to set any records on a half marathon or a 10K or something if you're not running right. So I've gone on a little bit of a tangent.
Speaker 3:But to bring it back, I think supplements and nutrition need to specifically support the type of exercise you're doing. And if you're doing muscle building, or I should say strength work that is breaking down muscles, you need to supply it with the raw materials, which is more protein, more amino acids, to rebuild. And I think it's an important principle to remember that you build muscle during recovery, not while you're actually working out. Right, you're breaking those muscles down and you need to give it the raw materials to build back. And if you're doing more long endurance exercise like again, cycling, running, triathlon, you know things over an hour, I would say, is probably the sort of threshold there you probably need more carbohydrates and can you do it on zero carbs?
Speaker 3:Maybe, but that's a very small portion of the population that's going to be able to sustain that level of overtraining if you're not supplying your body with what it needs. Because as soon as you increase the intensity which could be just going up a hill you switch from more aerobic to anaerobic and glycolytic and you're going to be burning carbohydrates, right. So you're, you know, as we sit here talking, we're in the fat burning zone. You know, it's not just that little zone that's on the cardio machines, right, it's anything below that threshold. We're mostly burning fat. And then, when we go above that threshold we begin to burn carbohydrates and you know if you are going, the longer you're going, the more carbohydrates your body needs and we can only store so many carbohydrates in our muscle glycogen and liver glycogen. So when that's depleted you're going to crash if you don't have a carbohydrate source to continue to supply the muscles what they need. You know exogenously through what you're eating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think sometimes people get quite puritanical about diet People. You know exogenously through through what you're eating. Yeah, and I think sometimes people get quite puritanical about diet people. You know the absence of religion people now believe in diets. You know, I am a vegan, I am a carnivore, like I am a Christian or a Muslim these days, and I think that's not ideal for some people.
Speaker 2:And I follow this Instagram nutritionist and she's sort of like a sports specific nutritionist and she will say that you know, I feed my athletes sometimes like what is considered junk food, you know, like children's cereal and sweets like that before competition. Because these professional athletes are training many hours a day and their gut just can't process 5,000 calories of sweet potato and steak and things like that. They just can't get their calories in. So they need some ultra processed foods. And you know, you look at these people they're not. You know they got, you know, single digit body fat and they're functioning at an elite level. And, yeah, maybe people would say, well, what about their long term health? You know, what about the seed oils? What about the inflammation that's being caused by that? Maybe that could be a problem, but I think the sugar in elite athletes is potentially OK.
Speaker 2:And our mutual friend George. You know he hammers me because I eat ice cream. I mean, I profess to be a biohacker and, you know, have some nutrition background and I like ice cream okay. But also sometimes when I'm, you know, going through a really big phase of training and I'm trying to put on weight, I do this sort of like reverse diet where I'm trying to I add 100 calories per week until I can ramp my metabolism up to like 4 000 calories. It's you can't do that. I can't do that on steak and broccoli and brown rice. I do it on partly ice cream and I think those I you know there's so many good ice creams out there these days. They're just, like you know, raw milk, cream, egg yolk and honey and I think that's fine. Um, so there, get off my back, george and uh, this is a public call out.
Speaker 3:Please support me in my fight for ice cream everyone I, I will, I will say, uh, before we move on that I, I think one of the things that gets overlooked, especially in endurance training, is your body does adapt.
Speaker 3:We think when you're training, that the body's adapting to the stimulus of the training, but your body's also adapting metabolically to what you're giving it for fuel Right, to what you're giving it for fuel right.
Speaker 3:And so if you think of I just thought of this if you're thinking of like an analogy of a fire, right, it's not just the flame, which would be the burning of the fuel, right, but it's the quality of the logs that you're building that fire. And if you give your body the gels and the goos and the blocks and those kinds of things along the way, you're training your body. Especially if you're doing this for months leading up to a race, you're training your body to expect and to preferentially burn carbohydrates. And if, during that time you're doing it either fasted, or you're burning or you're eating, you're consuming a more balanced macronutrient composition, you're training your body, your metabolism, even your digestive system, right During that time to burn that. And so we talk about, like training the way you race, and I think that extends to nutrition as well, because you're actually in training your metabolism along the way, and it's not something we necessarily emphasize or talk about a lot when we talk about training yeah, so you are apparently an excellent crossfitter.
Speaker 2:That's what, again, our friend George told me. One of the first things he said you know, michael used to do CrossFit. He's way fitter than you, which was nice, but you do Ironman as well. So that's right, you do Ironman and triathlon.
Speaker 3:I've done. I used to race a lot of half Ironman. I've never done a full Ironman, but the half distance was my sweet spot.
Speaker 2:Okay, nice. So how do you approach nutrition for Ironman versus CrossFit?
Speaker 3:Yeah, again, I think I'll just say again, I emphasize that I judge an activity by what the individuals look like. And when I see, you know, when you line up at a race at the amateur level, not at the professional level, because all of them, as you said, have single digit body fat but you see a lot of people who are training dozens of hours a week, right, or, you know, a dozen hours a week, multi-sport, multidisciplinary, and they don't look fit, they don't look in shape, you know, and a lot of that, I think, is due to what they're eating while they're training. And then also in recovery they say look, I was out biking for three hours. You know I deserve to eat this. You know I need to, I need these calories and I think, in my experience, even leading up, in the days leading up to a race, I don't carb load, I just eat more of what I generally eat. Just, I just increase, as you were saying, I just add, you know, every day, a few hundred more calories of what I'm eating.
Speaker 3:Already, you know, and it's generally the majority of my carbohydrates are just vegetables, fruits and vegetables. I don't really eat rice or pasta or any of that. And but again, that's just my personal approach. Some people, the day, you know, the days leading up to a race, they thrive on that and probably from trial and error, and you know what you can digest, there's a lot. I mean, that's a really important part of it, right? But before we talk about metabolism and you know, burning the fuel, if you can't even digest things and you know, go into the race, you know you're not going to be faster if you're, you know, stopping at the port-a-potties all the time along the race. So there's a lot of components to what you eat.
Speaker 3:But I think in general, really the only major tweak that I make between the two activities is a little more protein when I'm doing strength building activity and again I just kind of recognize I'm burning more carbohydrate when I'm doing endurance. So I need a little more carbohydrate and I'm burning a little more. Or I need a little more protein and even fat when I'm doing CrossFit and strength training, because I'm breaking down the muscles and I need and I, you, just I'm really intuitive with I don't measure or track what I'm eating. I just kind of know, after decades of exercising and working out and racing, what my body needs and you know I notice, if I'm in a in a workout subsequent to some intense workouts and I know where my baseline should be, and if I'm not there, I'm under recovered Another way of saying over training and you know. But I don't think I need to adjust my training as much as adjust my nutrition to support my training.
Speaker 2:Okay, and you're doing a lot of mountain biking. I was at your house and you're a pretty minimalist guy, but apart from the fact that you have how many? 14 bikes?
Speaker 3:minimalist guy. Apart from the fact you have how many 14 bikes? 12, I think at this point, 12, okay, um, so you do that's for the whole family, though that's for the whole family, not just all mine, okay well, you don't have 12 children, so, yeah, just the one at the moment.
Speaker 2:So I think it's not. Yeah, it's still a lot of bikes, but yeah, mountain biking, apparently, that's, yes, that's your thing now. So what makes mountain biking so challenging compared to other sports?
Speaker 3:yeah, I, I love mountain biking because when we talk about being in the zone or being in flow, the technical nature to mountain biking forces you to be present, because if you're not you can miss the rock right in front of you and go over the handlebars. And so I think there's the physical component in terms of strength and endurance that I love. There's a mental component in terms of being present, and then there's the skill aspect of it. And then there's the skill aspect of it and I am a little more like you might ask what you know how fast do you run? What's your average pace? And that comes into play with mountain biking as well. Kind of look on Strava and see, you know they did that loop and in that time you're kind of evenly matched. But there's also that technical skill element to mountain biking that you know whether it's descending quickly or climbing quickly, or you know riding smooth, fast trail or smooth, smooth trails, really fast or very technical trails, that you have to go more slowly. I love the diversity of it and you know.
Speaker 3:I'm here in Colorado now, and it's very different from the East Coast riding and the West Coast riding where you are in California. I went to grad school out there, and so the diversity of terrain and elevation and things like that, all these things are reasons I love mountain biking.
Speaker 2:Nice. Yeah, I don't do a lot of it, but maybe I should. But you, you stopped crossfit. Why did you stop crossfit?
Speaker 3:I started doing crossfit in 2007.
Speaker 3:I was at uc davis and I went for a hike with a friend of mine in yosemite and he turned me on to it.
Speaker 3:You know, not far from where CrossFit was born, in Santa Cruz area in California, and there were probably less than 50 boxes in the country around the world. There were zero anywhere outside of the US and I just started doing the workouts on my own. I think I actually was an early adopter of CrossFit because it just felt really natural and comfortable, because when I was in high school I was a soccer player but my next door neighbor was a football coach for the high school team and so he got me in the weight room and I was doing cleans and box jumps and pushing the sled and doing lots of things that CrossFit incorporated. And so, being an early adopter, I enjoyed, you know, learning skills like rope climbs and muscle ups and things that I would not have even been on my radar outside of CrossFit and it says play a variety of sports essentially or used to Used to say that yeah, well, it's the difference between CrossFit as an exercise modality and CrossFit as a sport.
Speaker 3:And if you want to excel in any sport we're in the Olympic season right now they're not balanced athletes, right, they're specialists, and when you specialize in something, by necessity you have to give up the things that are not directly applicable to that sport, right?
Speaker 3:And I'm in a time, I think, especially with a toddler in my life, that I really want to play and I want to try new things and I want to expose him to new things.
Speaker 3:And my interpretation of CrossFit over the years for me, my personal interpretation of it, was more strength-based, and so I still, as a mountain biker, I think snatches are one of the best movements if done under guidance of a coach, and I don't think every person should just go out there and learn how to snatch, but I think just that, even if you just spend time in the starting position and doing snatch pulls and things like that, the shoulder retracted and having a good position in that balances out being at a desk typing with our shoulders rounded or biking with our shoulders rounded, and so I always feel so much more open and have better posture after doing, you know, snatches, and so I think that I still do. I still have a garage gym here and I I do some movements, but the egocentric competition element of so many crossfit boxes just doesn't serve me at this time in my life.
Speaker 2:Fair enough, all right, I'm gonna do some quick fire questions now, like you did for me when I was on your podcast. So what are your thoughts on sauna?
Speaker 3:I prefer contrast therapies to doing heat and cold, and that's not always possible, but I think that is the ideal because there are some benefits to just the heat and, from a cardiovascular standpoint and a muscular and just to relax, there are benefits to just the cold. But I think the biggest bang for the buck is to do both, and here in Denver I just found there's a chain that's opening a location that has both and you can get an unlimited membership or you can get several days, a few days a week or I think starting at like eight times a month, and that's a great option. It's cool that those businesses exist because not everybody has the space or the money or whatever to have a sauna and a cold plunge in their house.
Speaker 2:But I think there there is some benefit to each, but I think the biggest benefit is having that contrast yeah, I looked into franchising a one of those type of things with sauna, cold plunge, jacuzzi, um pmf type things, which what? Do you know what the name of the company is?
Speaker 3:sweat house. Okay, yeah, yeah, I have a call with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they look cool. Yeah, um, okay, so you touched a little bit on sauna and adding the contrast, so the next question is cold plunges so I'm gonna, I'm take a big picture on that.
Speaker 3:I think we can add body work like massage, red light, hyperbaric oxygen therapy and all these sorts of things. Are you doing it as a one-off or are you doing it as a regular thing or are you doing it as a regular thing? And I think I would even add, when we talk about cold plunge, add skydiving. There's a difference in your response when you do it once a month, once a year, once a quarter, once a week, versus every day and people you know Wim Hof popularized, like the breathing and the cold exposure and these kinds of things. And I think there's cold exposure stimulates the release of endorphins. Cold exposure stimulates the release of endorphins and so you're going to feel more, you know, a boost in your mood and like mental clarity and things like that, and you can kind of get addicted to that. But is that the benefit you're going for? Is it the reduced inflammation or the improved recovery and these kinds of things? Right?
Speaker 3:And so, as a one-off, I'm not sure any of these things are really that beneficial, but doing them regularly into any of the things that we've already mentioned or you're about to ask me about, I think I would say try it for two weeks every day, whether it's breathing, whether it's yoga, meditation, cold plunge, sauna, any of these things. It's just not really going to be that beneficial as a one-off right. Massage, acupuncture, chiropractic, none of these things are going to be super beneficial in just acutely, but chronically, because a lot of the things we face are chronic right. So so doing something acutely to combat a chronic stress or chronic, you know, limitation is not, it just doesn't match. So I think if you're dealing with something acutely, you could do something acute, right. If you have a pain or something, then or you're you had a very intense workout and generally you don't work out very intensely. Cold might be good or sauna might be good, right, but it's even better if you can do it chronically okay, well, you've ruined the quickfire rounds because you've covered all my next questions.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, fine, um, something you haven't covered. But I'm noticing that you are wearing a wire to your headphones and I think think those are Bluetooth headphones, so I'm guessing you doing that for EMF or non-native electromagnetic frequency reasons, mitigation reasons. So what's your take on non-native EMFs?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was one of my major takeaways from the biohacking conference that we attended this year when I attended last year conference that we attended this year when I attended last year. You can get a device that kind of looks like a stud finder that measures EMFs. And I remember 15 years ago when I was working in the National Cancer Institute, specifically in their public affairs division, there was some concern around cell phones and the electromagnetic waves, that they're having a cell phone and I think it's really the jury is still out. I think the biohacking community really emphasizes EMFs and the scientific public health community really downplays the long term effects of EMFs and the scientific public health community really downplays the long-term effects of EMFs and I think the truth is somewhere in between.
Speaker 3:And I think I mentioned earlier mold. And I think, as much as we can control whether it's with our diet, minimizing pesticides control whether it's with our diet, minimizing pesticides, eating organic food, if it's more nutritious, eating local food, maximizing the good stuff and minimizing the bad stuff, and that's very oversimplified. But if there's a risk, if there's any concern, why not minimize it? Because it's pretty easy to do right, using wire versus Bluetooth, it's a simple thing to do. So why not do the simple things and then really dive into the things that are more complicated if it really adds an additional benefit? But again, from a nutrition standpoint, if you're not eating healthy, let's not worry about supplements. If you're in an environment where there's lots of mold there's lots of, you live under power lines and things like that let's counteract those environmental hazards.
Speaker 3:And one of the other things I'll just this is a little bit of a tangent, but when I was at the National Cancer Institute, one of the other hot things in cancer at the time was charred meat and the heterocyclic amines that were produced when you char meat. And most people that I know prefer their steak medium rare. But there is still a segment of the population that really likes very cooked things and burnt ends and things like that, and there is actually a very strong correlation between lots of consumption of charred meats and processed meats and things like that and a variety of cancers, not just gi cancers. So you know how we do something I think is as important as what we do yes, those uh.
Speaker 2:Is that the advanced glycation end products? Is that the same thing as what was the word used? Helio, something?
Speaker 3:Yeah, heterocyclic amines is the biochemical or chemical term for what's produced and is the carcinogen EMF.
Speaker 2:Yes, my take on it is I think it is a stressor and it's a little bit like that bathtub analogy. You know, once we have, you know we can have the bathtub that we fill up with stress, physiological stress like EMF and mold and pesticides, and then there's a sort of tipping point or an overflow point, and then once we people get chronic illnesses and then they can't tolerate EMFs, but I think. But I think yeah, again, it's not black and white. Yes, those power lines are going to be much worse for you than a bit of dirty electricity from some old wiring in the house. And I've really geeked out on the, the emf stuff and spent a lot of money on it and, to be honest, I haven't noticed much difference.
Speaker 2:You know, I used to sleep under an EMF canopy. I have the Leela quantum necklace and you know other things on my phone and my house is hardwired. But I can't say it's made any noticeable difference to me as well with those sort of quantum devices like the Somavedic. I'm sure that I'm not sure I think they work for some people, but I was a part of their study where they they gave me a free one for a few months and tracked my HRV. Absolutely no difference for me. But I think other people did and did have some benefit and of course there's always sort of responders and non-responders to things. But yeah, I don't think it's black and white. I know Peter Atiyah says that he thinks it's majoring in the minors and it's not a big deal for most people and maybe it's not. Maybe it's not a big deal for most people. Maybe it's just a big deal for people who are sensitive or who have reached that tipping point or overflow of their bathtub.
Speaker 3:We just moved into a new house and my partner bought a table lamps for side table lamps for our bedroom and they have the plugs in the, the lamps to things, and you know these are typical in a lot of hotels right, have side table lamps that you can plug into and, again, just doing the simple thing, like if there's a non-zero chance, right Probability that these have some effect, just plug your phone in across the room, right, Instead of having it right next to your head charging all night.
Speaker 3:You know, because the accumulation, especially if you are someone that may be highly sensitive to these things, night after night, the accumulation, I mean eight hours a night for 365 days, that's a lot of accumulation If there is a risk that can easily be minimized by just plugging your phone in across the room, because it's really the proximity to these things. And, again, if you have this device, it's a fascinating thing, it's maybe 100, 150 bucks. And if you put it right next to your TV, you know, right next to your TV it is off the, you know it is pinned all the way and you can actually put it to your skin and kind of see what you've kind of retained. So that could be an interesting experiment. Plug it, plug the phone in next to your bed and see if you have some residual effects from that phone charging next to you versus when it's across the room yes, I have one of those.
Speaker 2:They've meters as well and, yeah, I used to travel with it and things. But I think that I guess it is one of those things that you're just not going to see the effects day to day. It's going to be like you're going to notice this in 10, 20 years when, I don't know, maybe you've got cancer, maybe you've got other other diseases, but suppose I think the mechanisms are related to free active oxygen species and free radicals. It's increasing the free radicals, reducing your, your antioxidants as well, and then also it's creating an influx of calcium into the voltage gated calcium channel. So these things are happening at a cellular level.
Speaker 2:Supposedly it's also sort of depleting nad and magnesium when we're exposed to all these emfs, and yet maybe it's aging us very slightly quicker and maybe as well with children. You know, supposedly children's skulls are five times more permeable than an adult and perhaps this explains why we have, you know, this anxious generation who are, you know, so so incredibly fragile. If you read the work of, of jonathan height, which I, yeah, I want to read his new book, the anxious generation. Maybe it's not, it is partly social media and being coddled and things like that, but maybe it's just because they're the first generation of children to be exposed to so much emf.
Speaker 3:Who knows hypothesis there that, yeah, well, maybe we'll someone will work out in the future yeah, I'm going to throw out a fun fact from my grad school days that sticks with me two decades later. I took a class on antioxidants, a reactive oxygen species, oxidative stress and these kinds of things. And when we talk about eating, one of the benefits of eating a variety of fruits and vegetables and things that are high in antioxidants colorful foods generally from a public health standpoint, is that it's a one-to-one ratio of antioxidant to reactive oxygen species, as you said, ros, that you need one antioxidant to pair with that to remove it from the body. So when we talk about things that produce reactive oxygen species you just mentioned some that are kind of environmental but also exercise the byproduct of metabolism Digestion produces. You know it's kind of ironic we're eating antioxidants but we're also producing through that metabolism of those reactive oxygen species, and so all of these are internal stressors that can cause micro-inflammation if they're bouncing around, and so we really want to reduce inflammation and the accumulation of these radical oxygen species, and one of the best ways to do that is through our diet and through what you're describing and minimizing the environmental factors.
Speaker 3:But I thought that was just an interesting thing, that it's literally a one-to-one ratio that you need one of these good molecules in your body to remove the bad ones. And so the more exposure you have, the more important. And some people say, oh, I exercise so much like it doesn't matter what I eat, you know, I just need calories, you know? Back to our earlier part of our conversation, and that's absolutely not true. The more you work out, the harder you work out, the more important your diet is, not the less important not the less important, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you mentioned grad school days. So what exactly were you before? You were a full-time podcaster and, um, yeah, whatever it is you you do now. So you're a physiologist, right, and you worked for the national institute of something, right?
Speaker 3:yeah. So I studied physiology, nutritional neurophysiology, in grad school. I was looking at lab animals, rats and mice how the diet influences the brain. So we're first looking at amino acids, how amino acid deficiency is recognized in the brain and then how the difference in fat composition in the diet affects expression of brain peptides that are related to satiety satiation, feeling full and how that then leads to obesity in those animals versus staying lean.
Speaker 3:And then I graduated back in 2007, started at the National Institutes of Health and transitioned from a basic science to more of an administrative sort of on the grant side and I was a presidential management fellow in the federal government at NIH and really transitioned from basic science to public health. And I was working. We helped launch the physical activity guidelines, the dietary guidelines. We helped launch the physical activity guidelines, the dietary guidelines, and then transitioned from public health to health promotion and developing and managing employee wellness programs for federal government agencies from the federal law enforcement agencies, department of state, some leadership training programs throughout the federal government. I led the program at HHS, I led the program at NIH and along the way I've also over the last been doing a lot of performance fitness coaching aligned with my endurance and endurance, racing and triathlons, marathons, mountain biking and, yeah, recently launched a podcast, the Michael Donovan podcast, so I encourage you to check that out. I'll just give a quick plug on that while we're talking about it.
Speaker 3:That really what it is about, because that's what people always ask. What is your podcast about, michael? And it's about really vocation and following your life calling. It's also about me, and so it's pretty diverse, but I think that's the one of the threads that that really ties a lot of the guests together at this point is like, what is the thing you can't not do? What is the thing you must do in your life?
Speaker 3:And these are people for decades who have been very clear on that and draws together their whole life experience and the multi facets of our human experience. That kind of culminates in the great things that they're doing, and so I would reference people to listen to our podcast. When you were on my podcast as well, and you know, I think it's just that I'm kind of more of a jack of all trades, a Renaissance man, than a specialist, even though I have a PhD, and as you do as well, and I think that's one of the reasons that we're friends and colleagues is that we, you know we connect around a variety of different things, not just one like narrow lane. So that's that's what my podcast is about.
Speaker 2:Awesome, so it's the Michael Donovan podcast. And where else can people find you? You're on Instagram. Is that your main platform?
Speaker 3:I would say that the best way to find me is just my website, michaeldonovancoachingcom.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, thank you very much, michael. I've learned a lot. I do want to ask more about what's causing cancer and things like that, but I am aware that we are at time. So thank you very much, michael.
Speaker 3:Thank you, richard, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Welcome back listener.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed that and, shame to say, I did obviously um rich reflections yeah, so you and I were just discussing why someone like michael or why the things michael does. I think like ice baths and saunas, aren't more mainstream. Given that he was working for the National Institute for Health.
Speaker 1:Precisely. He's a very credible name, a very credible person, a doctor, and he is obviously so committed now to making let's call it a little bit of a shift towards biohacking um, towards biohacking. I'm just, I suppose I'm surprised the shift isn't more, um, more mainstream and more, uh, rapid, as more people aren't just coming over quicker to that way of thinking yeah, well, I think a lot of people, um, a lot of people just like him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, um, I think a lot of people rely on their doctors and hospitals and GPs just for, just maybe, an annual visit to the doctors, if that, and they don't think about health. They've got other things to think about. They've got their jobs and their careers and their kids and things like that and their hobbies, and health for them is just a. You know it's an afterthought, and health for them is just a. You know it's an afterthought, and I don't want to get conspiratorial about this, but you've got to look at the incentives for the big players in health and because, um, because they're sort of free to use and they've been around for such a long time, so because of our capitalistic society, which I love, I like capitalism I'm not saying we should find we should go communist but because of the incentives that these companies are beholden to their shareholders, they need to make profits.
Speaker 2:They can't really make profits from saunas, whereas they can make profits from, uh, patenting molecules and cancer treatments like that. So they're these big companies. They don't put their, their billions of dollars into research, into things like ice baths, breath work, saunas and things like that. It has to come from individuals and smaller companies and private parties. So that's why it's slower, because there's not as much money to be made from it compared to cancer treatments and things like chemotherapy. So yeah, I think it's a matter of economics, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. It is happening. Loads of research is going into ice baths, saunas and things like that. But for these things, you know, you need a body of evidence, need a movement, and those things take, take decades really all right.
Speaker 1:Well, hopefully, with this episode and more like it, we can uh help speed up the movement and shed some light on some pretty cool people. Yes, mike seems to be yeah, cool guy.
Speaker 2:all right, well, thank you listener, thank Michael often too, in the past, from when we were recording this and thank you Andy. And yes, where do they find us, andy?
Speaker 1:lblakecom, um, and on all good and bad podcasting sites. We're going to start a newsletter as well, so hopefully you'll get subscribed to that and, uh, you can keep up with us that way.
Speaker 2:Yes, the newsletter is about to drop, so sign up on my website. If you go to contact, you can be kept up to date with what the podcast is doing and and much more, hopefully. So, yes, all right then, cheers, listener, until next time. Bye.