Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness

Unapologetically Masculine: Navigating Challenges and Brotherhood with Craig Barlow

• Richard & Andy • Episode 33

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What does it mean to be unapologetically masculine in today's world? Join us for an invigorating conversation with Craig Barlow, a former Navy man and the driving force behind the Wild Man Challenge, as we break down the essence of true masculinity. Craig's experiences in the Navy have shaped his perspective on being clear, direct, and true to oneself, especially in a society that often pressures men to conform. We tackle the controversial yet crucial discussion on embracing one’s authentic self and the vital role of self-assurance and controlled emotional expression.

Craig delves into the challenges men face today, from societal pressures to suppress masculinity to the importance of gender-specific approaches in self-development. Drawing from his military background, Craig reveals how adventure-based activities can serve as a natural conduit for men to open up and connect with one another. The Wild Man Challenge—his brainchild—comprises physically demanding events designed to push men beyond their comfort zones, fostering resilience, camaraderie, and personal growth. Through shared hardships, participants forge deep bonds, creating a supportive brotherhood that is both empowering and transformative.

We also explore the fundamental principles of resilience, leadership, and fitness, inspired by Craig’s military discipline. From the concept of Misogi to mastering basic habits consistently, Craig provides practical advice for achieving personal and professional growth. We discuss the dynamics of masculine and feminine energies in relationships, emphasizing the significance of maintaining balance for a healthy partnership. Whether you’re looking to challenge yourself physically, mentally, or emotionally, this episode is packed with valuable insights to help you live authentically and thrive in all aspects of life.

TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:02 Defining Unapologetic Masculinity
01:25 Challenges of Modern Masculinity
03:41 Emotional Expression in Men
08:47 Military Influence on Masculinity
09:32 Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life
12:52 Men's Work and Leadership
14:57 The Importance of Challenge and Adversity
21:18 Wildman Challenge and Masogi Concept
27:38 The Surprising Lack of Leadership in Corporate Environments
28:31 The Importance of Mastering the Basics
29:26 The Misconception of Quick Fixes
31:21 The Role of Discipline and Certainty
31:59 The Impact of Military Experience on Personal Development
33:07 Humor as a Superpower in Self-Development
34:11 Practical Tips for Daily Challenges
35:43 The Importance of Consistency and Simplicity
36:38 The Challenge of Maintaining New Habits
38:32 The Influence of Relationships on Personal Growth
43:53 The Dynamics of Masculine and Feminine Energy
48:42 Future Plans and Upcoming Events
50:20 Conclusion and Contact Information

FOLLOW OUR SOCIALS:
Guest: Craig Barlow
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/leadbeyondtheedge
Instagram URL: https://www.instagram.com/thecraigbarlow/

HOSTS:
Richard Blake
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/The_Breath_Geek
https://richardlblake.com/
https://linktr.ee/RichardLBlake
Facebook: @TheOptimisedU

Andy Esam
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andyesam/

PODCAST:
Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
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Speaker 1:

Dr Richard L Blake. How are you? I'm good. How are you, andy? Not bad thanks very much.

Speaker 2:

yeah, we're good. I'm looking forward to the episode where we talk to, let's be honest, a proper man's man. A man, yeah, are we men's men?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I don't know. I don't know. That's a tough question. I think maybe we need to. I feel like I'm a man. I even have a man bun, right that's a manly thing.

Speaker 2:

Can you say so so?

Speaker 1:

we're speaking to Craig Barlow. And you have highlights that's a manly thing.

Speaker 2:

I did bleach my hair, yeah, can't deny it. Craig Barlow, who does Wild man Challenge as well as other awesome men's groups, and his whole thing is about challenging yourself as a man, and we talk about that and it's amazing really, isn't it? Because it kind of. He mentioned Goggins. That's where my brain went to straight away when we were researching it, in terms of just really challenging yourself, pushing yourself out of just really challenging yourself, pushing yourself out of comfort zone, pushing yourself to failure.

Speaker 1:

Easily said, not so easily done absolutely yeah, and I think some of the things he says are going to challenge some people. People might find that they disagree with that kind of stuff, and I think Craig would be fine with you disagreeing with anything he says, um, but uh, I think, yeah, it's a really useful perspective.

Speaker 1:

What he's doing seems to be really working and I think some people need to hear this and some people may need to filter out some of the stuff he says as well yeah I talk a lot about filtering out opinions that aren't necessarily for you, because you are so many different types of people in the world and some people maybe they need to hear this and some people they don't. They should avoid this and disregard it.

Speaker 2:

Or just listen to someone who has different opinions to yourself. You'll be fine at the end of it, without trying to silence.

Speaker 2:

and make people and make I also think it comes across genuine because the stakes are so high, because he mentioned that he struggled when he wasn't living like he is and he didn't stay true to his philosophy. So he's not going to compromise on that because the stakes are too high. He doesn't want to fall back into struggling, he wants to live his best life and that's how he thinks he has to do it.

Speaker 1:

So good on him, I say yeah, and I think there'll be a lot of what aboutery. Have you had that term before? Yes barry glendening, what aboutery? So he's giving his perspective, what's worked for him, the challenges he's faced, and there'll be a lot of people who say, well, what about this? What about this type of man? What about this type of person? What about this? And maybe other people need different things, different drinks for different needs, as I I am david brent always say um, but I think it's yeah.

Speaker 1:

I feel like this message needs to to be in the ears of some people and uh hopefully that's you, hopefully you're, the less you listener need to hear this and it's gonna help you in some way and at the very least he's an interesting man.

Speaker 2:

He's had a interesting life, so hopefully there's something in there for everyone enjoy listener.

Speaker 1:

Do you love what you're hearing? If so, drop us a like, share your favorite episode with friends and help us grow by leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts. Your support means the world to us and helps keep the conversation going. So tune in, follow, like and review today. Craig, welcome to the podcast. Can you tell us what it means to be unapologetically masculine?

Speaker 3:

um, straight in there. Uh, I I honestly think that looks different to, obviously, the individual, but for me, I think the way I look at it is coming from my background. I've been in the navy for 13 years.

Speaker 3:

It's a very colorful environment to, in a sense, grow up in because I was in fm16. So it's very, very unfiltered, very unapologetic, very non-pc, and I really, really love feeling that environment. It was so much fun, almost in a sense like a bit of freedom to just fully be yourself, because everyone's a little bit crazy. And then, coming out of that environment, you realize that that's actually not the norm in, let's call it, the normal world, and so for me it is, yes, in that kind of buzzword of authenticity, but for me a lot of it's unapologetic, is one of the things in terms of masculinity, like being disagreeable, not on purpose, but not just being overly agreeable and overly people pleasing speak in your mind being clear and direct, which sounds very simple, but from what I find is, a lot of people are not clear and direct and a lot of people take offense and a little bit sensitive.

Speaker 2:

So they're some of the main things that I see from my personal opinion, without and so, like by you saying that are you, do you think that we've had to be to apologize as being men more recently in terms of, like what we're seeing in the media and the patriarchy and stuff, are you finding it it's harder to be a man perhaps?

Speaker 3:

um, I I don't, personally I don't think it's harder it's depending on what you're looking at to determine, like what you should be or who you should be as a man, like how you should express that, what's okay, what's not okay, what's good, what's bad, and like. There's a lot of bullshit out there and and if you listen to it, then in a sense you are going to suppress a lot of yourself as a man, a lot of your kind of masculinity. I think that actually comes from a um, a lack of of self-assuredness, because if you are very self-assured and comfortable with yourself, then you wouldn't really be overly concerned by that so much what kind of bullshit are you seeing out there see?

Speaker 3:

kind of a lot of approaches towards men is like it's approaches that are generic, like self-development, that are, I think, a bit more feminine, and not to say that they're all wrong. It's like some of them work and depending on who you are, but there's a big missing part that's specific for men. That gets missed, and I tend to get a lot of backlash for that, which I'm okay with. I don't mind that. Again, coming from the military, weirdly, I kind of enjoy it.

Speaker 3:

I love language, but yeah, there's a lot of these approaches, even things around men being more emotional. Is this like that gets skewed as well, as it's like is it being more emotional or is it being more emotionally aware, being able to self-regulate your emotions, being able to control your emotions, being able to actually talk about how you feel without kind of being chaotic and being a mess, and there's some of these things where I think the intention is is there, but I just think it's just thrown in the bucket with normal self-development and like god you know, men and women are, they're just the same, they can't need the same things, and I really think that's one of the biggest problems so just to be clear there.

Speaker 1:

So you're're saying that men should have emotions and they should express them. They should just not do it in like a chaotic way, lose control. Can you tell us more about the sort of the ideal of how a man should deal with his emotions?

Speaker 3:

Well, again, from my perspective is like, of course is like we're human as well, right, but it's like we deal with emotions differently than women do.

Speaker 3:

For example, a lot of women will sit and they'll talk about their emotions all the time with their girlfriends and feelings and emotions all the time with their girlfriends, and men don't do that so much and it can be really hard for men to really go into that by you know, sit with your guy friends drinking wine and eating ice cream and talking about your feelings and emotions.

Speaker 3:

It's not common, but like, for example, I do a lot of adventure based and nature based work with guys.

Speaker 3:

It's like you take a bunch of guys on a hike or on an adventure and do some cool shit and some challenges and pat kind of like automatically from that is you're gonna, you're gonna talk about things, like things are gonna come up, you're gonna open up a little bit more, but without trying or without being forced. It's like this the difference between, like you know, women are more eye to eye like I fixed, kind of talking conversations about feelings and emotions, and men are more kind of shoulder to shoulder kind of doing something. It's like like the action first, chat later. Philosophy is like we go do some shit and then we talk during or after. It's like it comes through the kind of the action of doing, rather than just sitting like in a therapy chair staring at somebody, someone looking back at you and then going okay, talk about your feelings and emotions yeah, I think that's supported by, as we mentioned, a previous episode with ryan park and his talk about testosterone.

Speaker 1:

His prescription for men is just get your testosterone up and then you can maybe talk about your emotions. So, doing some adventure, doing some exercise, doing, you know, driving a fast car, chopping wood, whatever it is is, uh is what he's prescribed for people. So, yeah, it sounds like you're on the same page there.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I honestly think that's why I think men struggle so much because they think something's wrong with them if they can't. And sit, and again you get a lot of women that are looking at men through their women's brains and being like, well, do what we do, you know, sit and talk about your feelings and your emotions, like with us all the time. It's like it's easy, but it's. I don't think it's the um predominant way for men to actually work through emotions and I think that's why a lot of guys find it extra difficult, because it's almost like they don't know really how to do that because it's never been taught it really. So it's like, okay, fit into this bracket and then wonder why it still feels so hard. But you actually give you put guys into an environment that's more suited for men in the way that Dr Richard L Blake how are you?

Speaker 1:

I'm good, how are you Andy?

Speaker 2:

Not bad. Thanks very much. Yeah, all good. I'm looking forward to the episode where we talk to, let's be honest, a proper man's man. A man, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Are we man's men? Yeah, no. I don't know, I don't know. That's a tough question. I think maybe we need to. I feel like I'm a man. I even have a man bun right.

Speaker 2:

That's a yeah, it's a manly thing you say, so we're speaking to craig and you have highlights.

Speaker 2:

That's a manly thing I did change my hair, yeah, I can't deny it. Um, craig barlow, who does a wild man challenge, as well as other awesome men's groups, and his whole thing is about challenging yourself as a man, and we talk about that and it's amazing, really, isn't it? Because he mentioned Goggins. That's where my brain went to straight away when we were researching it, in terms of just really challenging yourself, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, pushing yourself to failure. Easily said not, so easily done.

Speaker 1:

absolutely yeah, and I think some of the things he says are going to challenge some people. People might find that, uh, they disagree with that kind of stuff, and I think craig would be fine with you disagreeing with anything he says, but I think, yeah, it's a really useful perspective. What he's doing seems to be really working and I think some people need to hear this and some people may need to filter out some of the stuff he says as well. You talk a lot about filtering out opinions that aren't necessarily for you, because you know there are so different, uh, types of people in the world and some people maybe they need to hear this and some people they, they don't. You know they should.

Speaker 2:

they should avoid this and disregard it or just listen to someone who has different opinions to yourself, you'll be fine at the end of it. Um, without trying to silence and make, I also think it comes across genuine because the stakes are so high, because he mentioned that he struggled when he wasn't living like he is and he didn't stay true to his philosophy. So he's not going to compromise on that because the stakes are too high. He doesn't want to fall back into struggling. He wants to live his best life and that's how he thinks he has to do it. So good on him, I say.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think there'll be. Live his best life and that's how he thinks he has to do it. So good on him. I say yeah, and I think there'll be a lot of what aboutery. Have you had that term before?

Speaker 1:

yes, barry glendening, what aboutery? So he's giving his perspective, what's worked for him, the challenges he's faced, and there'll be a lot of people who say, well, what about this? What about this type of man? What about this type of person? What about this? And maybe other people need different things, different drinks for different needs, as I and David Brent always say. But I think it's yeah, I feel like this message needs to be in the ears of some people.

Speaker 1:

And hopefully that's you, hopefully you listener need to hear this and it's going to help you in some way.

Speaker 2:

And at the very least he's an interesting man who's had an interesting life, so hopefully there's something in there for everyone Enjoy. There we go All right.

Speaker 1:

Listener. Do you love what you're hearing? If so, drop us a like, Share your favorite episode with friends and help us grow by leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts. Your support means the world to us and helps keep the conversation going. So tune in, follow, like and review today. Craig, welcome to the podcast. Can you tell us what it means to be unapologetically masculine?

Speaker 3:

Straight in there.

Speaker 3:

I honestly think that looks different to, obviously, the individual, but for me, I think the way I look at it is coming from my background.

Speaker 3:

I've been in the Navy for 13 years. It's a very colourful environment to in a sense, grow up in because I was in fm16. So it's very, very unfiltered, very unapologetic, very non-pc, and I really, really love feeling that environment. It was so much fun, almost in a sense like a bit of freedom to just fully be yourself, because everyone's a little bit crazy. And then, coming out of that environment, you realize that that's actually not the norm in, let's call it, the normal world, and so for me it is, yes, in that kind of buzzword of authenticity, but for me a lot of it's unapologetic, is one of the things in terms of masculinity, like being disagreeable, not on purpose, but not just being overly agreeable and overly people pleasing speak in your mind being clear and direct, which sounds very simple, but from what I find is, a lot of people are not clear and direct and a lot of people take offense and a little bit sensitive.

Speaker 2:

So they're some of the main things that I see from my personal opinion with that and so, like by you saying that are you, do you think that we've had to be to apologize as being men more recently, in terms of, like what we're seeing in the media and the patriarchy and stuff, are you finding that it's harder to be a man perhaps?

Speaker 3:

um, I I don't. Personally I don't think it's harder it's depending on what you're looking at to determine, like what you should be or who you should be as a man, like how you should express that, what's okay, what's not okay, what's good, what's bad, and like there's a lot of bullshit out there and and if you listen to it, then in a sense you are going to suppress a lot of yourself as a man, a lot of your kind of masculinity. I think that actually comes from a lack of self-assuredness, because if you were very self-assured and comfortable with yourself, then you wouldn't really be overly concerned by that so much.

Speaker 1:

What kind of?

Speaker 3:

bullshit are you seeing out? There, see, kind of a lot of approaches towards men is like it's approaches that are generic, like self-development, that are, I think, a bit more feminine, and not to say that they're all wrong, it's like some of them work and, depending on who you are, but there's a big missing part that's specific for men. That gets missed, and I I tend to get a lot of backlash for that, which I'm okay with. I don't mind that it's again coming from the military, so, weirdly, I kind of enjoy it like a love language.

Speaker 3:

But, um, but yeah, there's a lot of these approaches, even things around you know, like men being more emotional, is this like that gets skewed as well, as it's like is it being more emotional? That gets skewed as well. It's just like is it being more emotional or is it being more emotionally aware, being able to self-regulate your emotions, being able to control your emotions, being able to actually talk about how you feel without kind of being chaotic and being a mess, and there's some of these things where I think the intention is is there, but I just think it's just thrown in the bucket with normal self-development and, like you know, men and women are, they're just the same. They can't need the same things, and I really think that's one of the biggest problems so just to be clear there.

Speaker 1:

So you're saying that, uh, men should have emotions and they should express them. They should just not do it in like a chaotic way, lose control. Can you tell us more about the sort of the ideal of how a man should uh deal with his emotions?

Speaker 3:

well again, from my perspective is like just of course, is like we're human as well, right, but it's like we deal with emotions differently than than women do. Like, for example, like a lot of women will like sit and they'll talk about their emotions all the time with their girlfriends and feelings and emotions all the time with their girlfriends wake. And men don't do that so much and it's it can be really hard for men to kind of to really go into that by. You know, sit with your guy friends drinking wine and eating ice cream and talking about your feelings and emotions. It's not common.

Speaker 3:

But like, for example, I do a lot of adventure based and nature based work with guys is like you take a bunch of guys on a hike or on an adventure and do some cool shit and some challenges and Pat kind of like automatically from that is you're gonna, you're gonna talk about things, like things are going to come up, you're going to open up a little bit more, but without trying or without being forced.

Speaker 3:

It's like this the difference between, like you know, women are more eye to eye, like I fixed, kind of talking, conversations about feelings and emotions, and men are more kind of shoulder to shoulder kind of doing something. It's like like the action first, chat later. Philosophy is like we go do some shit and then we talk during or after. It's like it comes through the kind of the action of doing, rather than just sitting like in a therapy chair staring at somebody, someone looking back at you and then going okay, talk about your feelings and emotions yeah, I think that's supported by, as we mentioned, a previous episode with ryan park and his talk about testosterone.

Speaker 1:

His prescription for men is just get your testosterone up and then you can maybe talk about your emotions. So, doing some adventure, doing some exercise, doing, you know, driving a fast car, chopping wood, whatever it is is, uh is what he's prescribed for people. So, yeah, it sounds like you're on the same page there yeah, and I honestly think that's.

Speaker 3:

I think that's why I think men struggle so much, because they I think they think something's wrong with them if they can't and sit, and again you get a lot of women that are looking at men through their women's brains and being like, well, do what we do, you know, sit and talk about your feelings and your emotions with us.

Speaker 3:

All the time it's like it's easy, but I don't think it's the predominant way for men to actually work through emotions and I think that's why a lot of guys find it extra difficult, because it's almost like they don't know really how to do that because it's never been taught it really. So it's like, okay, fit into this bracket and then wonder why it still feels so hard. But like you actually give you, you put guys into an environment that's more suited for for men and the way that we actually deal with things like physiologically or psychologically, and it's like it's actually so much easier. It really is. It's not that difficult for guys to kind of start talking about stuff when you're like, say, when you're in some sort of action.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely yeah and I definitely think the prescription for men over the last whatever since it's, I don't know, since feminism 3.0 came along, or Me Too it's just men you just need to be more like women and then you'll be okay, and it's not panning out. I think a lot of people have tried that. A lot of people have become effeminate and emasculated and they're worse off than before. But I think at the same time, there were problems of masculinity. The term toxic masculinity has become sort of ubiquitous and it gets thrown around too much in my opinion and I don't think it's helpful anymore. But are there dangers of being too masculine? Well, what's too masculine? Well, how about? What are the negative sides of masculinity that maybe we want to cut out?

Speaker 3:

I don't. I don't think there's. If it's genuine like masculinity, I don't think there is any dangers of it. To be honest, if it's in that healthy expression, then it's actually masculinity itself, is not? It's not dangerous, it's more protective than anything. So so, yeah, I don't see those arguments. When people talk about that and like, especially the toxic masculinity, I'm like well, it's, it isn't masculinity then, is it? It's just behavioral. So I think if you want to protect, like masculinity is like, you've got to take those extra terms out and go well, masculinity itself is extremely healthy, it's protective, it's safe, it's trustworthy and is it you know with, as guys? Yeah, we have a lot of work as a whole to get ourselves into that place. That's our responsibility as individuals and as groups, you know, as groups, especially because that's where men will thrive in the area. But yeah, I don't see, um, anything in that in terms of unhealthy aspects of masculinity I like that reframing it.

Speaker 3:

So they yeah, it's not that it's toxic masculinity it's just not masculinity yeah, and just just to add on to that as well, I mean, like a lot, I'll come from the military, right, so it's like a lot of people are not exposed to that, those environments, and it's like a lot of people are not exposed to those environments and it's like you know the parts that people like to call toxic or dangerous or aggressive. As men is like they are the first guys you want on your fucking back, by your shoulder when the shit hits the fan or something kicks off. It's like your first responders as well. Right, it's like the military, your first responders, your responders, your fire service, your police, like all of these. I'm not saying that they're all extremely healthy, masculine, but if you want to give an example, it's like you know what people see is too aggressive or violent or dangerous. It's like, well, you need that. That is a part of masculinity, but it's how it's managed and handled.

Speaker 2:

That's our job you almost preempted my next question, craig, but I was going to say you said you. I think you said you joined the navy at 16 and stayed for 13 years. I mean, yeah, that's a huge part of your life for those of us who don't come from military background, could you?

Speaker 3:

give us a bit of sort of insight into what you learn and what are the key takeaways from that time um, besides being able to drink copious amounts of alcohol and still go to work with no sleep, which is a different lifetime now, well, there's a lot of things that are like that that, to give more context, I suppose into that. It's like I didn't notice that because it was just my normal environment until I left and I struggled and I was like why am I struggling? It's like what's going on and I didn't have the awareness and to go oh yeah, of course I've just left.

Speaker 3:

An environment it's like is it has a massive structure. It is you know you're in an environment surrounded by men all the time, going through shared challenge. You have a leadership hierarchy. Is you go through difficult times together and you kind of suffer and struggle together. Is you're constantly training and practicing in skill sets and leadership and training in for high risk environments, so you're continuously developing. But I never equated anything to do with that. It's just a man, I was just in the navy, you know. So there's a lot of those things that for me, are core principles for guys in some way shape or form. Not, say, go and join the military, but to be able to extract them and integrate them into day-to-day life somehow is like for me is like foundational yeah and so, yeah, you mentioned a little bit about like struggling.

Speaker 2:

Was that to adjust to what were you doing after the military, or was it just nothing to do with what you're actually doing, more just like taking yourself out of that environment?

Speaker 3:

A lot of it's identity. And so you know, I'm 16, I'm still developing, and then I'm leaving as a 30-year-old and this has been my whole identity. So there's that part which was probably one of the scariest times in my life, because I've never really struggled before, to be honest. And so there was that part. There was the structure, because obviously there's a massive, massively helpful infrastructure in the military that is very useful, that you kind of slot into. So when I left, I was chaotic and I had a lot of anxiety and I didn't know what I was doing. I was really struggling because I'm like, oh, I've got to create my own structure now. I've never done that before because I just slotted into it. I'm like, oh shit, this is hard, I've got to create my own structure now.

Speaker 3:

But the thing is, with all these struggles, what it made me realize is like, oh, I could fall back on something, is like, oh, I could fall back on something. I've got experience, extensive experience, that I can fall back on. And I'm like, oh, all of this is actually useful for me to just kind of remold and implement now. And it kind of hit me holy shit. It's like that's all right for me, but what do guys do that they haven't had, that, they haven't been in a structure or trained in that way or been in a group or trained in that way or been in their group of men that way, and what do they fall back on? And it's nothing, absolutely nothing. So it's kind of like a blessing in disguise, really, for me to kind of understand at a deeper level of what I had and how, how it can be restructured into into everyday life so can you talk a bit about the men's work you do to help other guys sort of maybe avoid some of those challenging times that you had?

Speaker 3:

uh, I wouldn't say avoid challenging times. I'd say the opposite is like go find some challenge and let's make some challenge. So again, I look at it from a leadership perspective. I've been down the routes myself. I've, like you know, I've gone down different avenues in in men work. I've gone into the masculine, feminine dynamics and a lot of the kind of the self development stuff around men and like and it's cool, but something just kind of.

Speaker 3:

And when I started explaining it to men in the form of leadership, they were just like oh yeah, I get that, I understand that no-transcript, all these sorts of things assertiveness, decisiveness, taking action is clear communication, like all these things I would learn in the navy that I didn't even realize I'd learned and they were just normal. So again, remolding those and like teaching it in the form of leadership, guys just understand and it's honestly, it is really simple for guys to understand that. And when they focus on those basics you could refer to like basic training right, but in a sense like military basic training is like men's basic training that you didn't get and then everything starts to improve. Businesses start to improve is their finances, their relationships, their, their health and social circles. They're going off and doing more cool shit and then going on adventures and taking on challenges, and it's certain things that I think men need, that we don't have because it's so comfortable in normal life that I don't think men see that as like you need to go do some hard shit, like you need to create some adversity. You need to create some challenge, because if you don't, and you don't get used to being able to build up your resilience and mental toughness and emotional regulation and stress management is it's going to be so much worse.

Speaker 3:

So, and I don't think you can't get that from sitting behind a screen. There's a certain amount of, you know, good work you can do sat behind a screen, but from what I found is like you take guys out into mountains, or we have a signature event of like called wildman challenge as well, where you do some intense shit, you're carrying logs and boulders up mountains and it is is hardcore, and the guys are like how do we do that? It's just like I don't understand that and it's really, really hard, but they, they go for those shifts and those gears and those switches instantly, in the moment. You have to experience it, in my opinion, not just sit behind the screen and do you know behind the screen? Coaching? It's like it.

Speaker 1:

It does work to a level, but I don't think anything can replace the in-person work yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense, this whole, the coddling of our society, the coddling of the American mind one of my favorite books and for people who, or men, who, don't understand why they're happy and they're living this life behind a screen, I think it's fairly obvious that the body seeks challenge, just like we were reading about the astronauts in space at the moment. Because there's no gravity, their hearts are atrophying. They need the stress of gravity for their hearts to maintain strong, and if we have no challenge other than I don't know whatever it is behind a computer screen, then our, our minds atrophy in in some ways, and I think that goes a long way to explaining a lot of people's mental health challenges. Yeah, um, yeah, you want to say something?

Speaker 3:

on that I was gonna say no, I, I totally agree with that and I and I think it's kind of like a catch-22 where a lot of guys resist that because they don't feel confident in themselves or they, they, they feel weak or timid and they don't want to put themselves in an environment.

Speaker 3:

And obviously a lot of us guys, when we're doing that, we look, you know, pretty jacked and aggressive and but it's also a lot of fun and we, you know, give each other shit and camaraderie. But even that I think a lot of guys aren't used to that. So when you're in a group of guys and again a bit of the military aspect is which I think is really healthy in a group of men to be able to have that, to be able to shit, talk each other and the camaraderie where that's not the total of the communication, of course you need to know that, like you know, if you've got something going on, obviously you bring that to the table, but I think a lot of guys aren't used to that. They shy away from it, but it's actually a big part of, I think, of what you need to get yourself into and then when you're around that and you're going on these challenges, you're like shit man.

Speaker 1:

I didn't realize how much I needed that yeah, absolutely, and I think that the sort of the rugby club, military football club atmosphere it has a lot of positives to it and I played, played a lot of sports for a lot of different teams as a young person but there definitely were some environments that I, you know, I absolutely hated clubs where there was that sort of one-upmanship and there was that sort of like nasty tinge to things and I I would have let, I left those clubs fairly quickly. So how do you sort of you know, walk that fine line between bullying and, you know, healthy interactions?

Speaker 3:

well personally, when I look at it in our groups, is that I just know, and if there's any of that that escalates because you know it can easily escalate and there can be a fine line with that. But I think because I crossed that many times in the military, I kind of know where that is. But you can just tell when people are doing that. You can just tell how people talk to other people, whether it's coming across as a bit snide, or if someone's insecure and trying to put someone else down because they feel shit about themselves. The way we do it is. I'm really clear on that.

Speaker 3:

So guys know there's no fucking tolerance for that in our groups. And also as well, if someone is taking something a bit too far, it's also your job to speak up as well. Also, because a lot of it's respect is like the honor in a group of men is just like, yes, you can do that, you can have the camaraderie, you can rib each other. I think that's actually a big part of men bonding together as well. But it's not from a place of I'm really insecure, so I'm going to put you down and give you shit. It's just like you just don't tolerate it. But but it weirdly is because I don't know. I think sometimes it's how you come across as a leader.

Speaker 1:

People just don't even try it, to be honest yeah, I've looked into the sort of the psychology of bullying and, as you say, like in these male environments, there is normally a pecking order. There is normally a leader and a second, a third, fourth, fifth, and it's never like the first and second person in the hierarchy. That's bullying. It's the person who's like sixth or seventh and they're bullying someone who's like eighth or ninth in the pecking order because they want to, you know, pick someone weaker than them or with lower standing to impress the people higher up. But yeah, when that does happen, that's when it comes to to good leadership, you know the men at the top. Yeah, absolutely, I think what um?

Speaker 3:

but what I do with that as well is we, we lay, we lay it down, like when we do the challenges in the mountains, because I know what's going to happen in that, like you are going to get a bit reactive, it's like you're probably going to get a bit angry and pissed off.

Speaker 3:

You're probably going to tell me to fuck off. Uh, and that's fine. It's like it's expected because you're really pushing yourself beyond an edge and it brings emotional stuff up. It brings stuff up that you hide, maybe a bit of that darker side that men don't tap into. We actually want that to come out. So it's like so, I'm aware of that. So, before we even start these things, we just we lay things down and say you know, this is probably going to happen, this is what's okay, this is not okay. And if this happens, it's like you'll be asked to leave, and so it's just laid down straight away. And you find, like guys respect that, but I think that comes from the leadership of just like oh, okay, people will fall into so you mentioned a bit about the structure of it.

Speaker 2:

Can you give us a bit of insight into what it looks like when you do the wild man challenges or some of your men's groups? How does it all? How do you give?

Speaker 3:

them the structure that's so needed it depends they're.

Speaker 3:

They're different. So I I do that myself in, like my with my personal clients as well, so it might be like a personal just one-on-one, which is an intimate experience. There's only two of you. Go in the middle of nowhere, go in the mountains, you're camping out, you're having a lot of deep conversations. It's a little bit of challenge, of course, because it's still hard work. It's not a walk in the park, but you've also.

Speaker 3:

That also brings to thought you're in nature, you've got no distractions, you've got nothing going on. So it's some of it's a removal process. So you're removing all distractions, all reactivities from day to day and I think when you do that, stuff naturally comes to the surface. So in a way it's quite an effortless process. In that respect, we do have a signature wildman challenge which is very hard. It's like five or six days and it is full-on. It is it's like you're doing stuff constantly, like, say, you might be carrying boulders or mountains. We go to different locations each day for different kind of tasks that we do. You might be carrying each other up mountains. Again, there's a lot of. It is like is to bring the guys together and bond the guys together, because when you do that the conversations in the evening around the barbecue again, the community, the guys together and bond the guys together. Because when you do that the conversations in the evening around the barbecue again the community, bring guys together in community is the conversations will go. Sometimes you get tears as well if you start talking about fathers. That's always a good one to bring up. Where guys will be like like straight away.

Speaker 3:

It's there on the surface so it can seem very military-esque or we kind of pitch it as like it's a mix between SAS who dares wins, a Spartan race and an ultramarathon all rolled together. But that is created to bring guys together because it's that concept of the military right. Why is the military an environment where men see it as like a brotherhood, like probably the tightest I've ever seen, or like why we watch, uh, military movers or war movies and you see the guys together and for that they're like our chick flicks and um, it's because of that shared challenge that brings us guys together. You go through hardship together.

Speaker 3:

You'll build trust and rely on other guys more than probably you ever have, and that's a real challenge for guys to like is that to be able to trust someone next to them, and when you do that you'll open up and talk about all your shit like easily, way more easily. So it is kind of like a trojan horse of here's some really cool hardcore stuff you're going to do in a moment is to push yourself physically and mentally, which is again it's really provoking all of that other stuff to the surface. And that's when we kind of sit around the table in the evening. We, we all cook dinner together, we sit there and just like having those conversations all night. We'll drop little seeds in or start one off.

Speaker 1:

It just kind of unravels from there and is there any of the misogi concept in there? Have you heard of misogi?

Speaker 3:

yeah, the comfort crisis yeah, so it kind of is for a lot of guys that is, they're not like. They say that kind of like you know once a year is having a, so you challenge right is for a lot of guys that's their lifetime. Um, the sogies, it's like they say that's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Um, but also like one of the best and it's so. Yeah, it is kind of that, but not intentionally.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, so, yeah, and you know what a misogi is? No, so misogi is this? Yeah, is this japanese concept of you take on a challenge that you're probably going to fail, like carrying a really heavy boulder up a really big hill? I think it's the one from the comfort. Oh, that's the one that? What's his name? The bow hunter does? I've got this quote up on my wall. Yeah, cam Haines. Yeah, nobody cares, work hard, I've got that in my corner there. But, yeah, the Masogi is. The idea is that failure is the teacher. You push yourself past that perceived limit and the goal isn't necessarily to achieve the goal.

Speaker 3:

The goal is to get as far as you can and learn from failure yeah, it's also as well because, like a lot of people say, oh, it's like, oh, you know what. So you take guys out and then you break them first and like and I'm like, no, actually, no, it is like, it might seem like that, but's not, it's to take you to a perceived breaking point and then being able to kind of taper that so you can keep pushing and keep pushing. Because what it is is like we're showing guys, not talking. We're showing guys look what you're capable of, look how much you've actually got in the tank, look of how much of yourself you're leaving on the table. And when they do that, because all the excuses come up and this is why we do it all the excuses come up, all the bullshit stories come out, all the anger and frustration comes out, the the injuries. Oh, my shoulder hurts, my leg hurts and we're like don't care, keep going. And they're like oh, someone's gonna get an injury. Look, it's not my first rodeo, I know how this works.

Speaker 3:

And a lot of the time the guys they keep pushing through they're like oh man, that shoulder thing I had is gone now. Or that issue in my groin where I could hardly walk is gone now. They're like how is that possible? Like I'm like mate, does it matter? All it is is showing you the power of like body and mind and that, rather than talking about it is push yourself as far as you think you can go and then keep pushing yourself further. So in a sense, you're kind of creating this endurance mindset in men, which I think is really important, because you might have to push longer than you want to and in a sense, you might have no choice and it might be tough shit. You've got to keep pushing until it's done, until the job's done. And that's a really hard concept for a lot of men to accept and I don't think it's really taught that much, but it's one of the I think it's one of the truths for guys. It's like you, you really need that skill set to have yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I know one of the things you talk about is standards. So do you think people's standards are too low these days?

Speaker 3:

honestly think it's 100 true, and it's sad as well, because if men realize how much they actually had to do to stand out and separate themselves from that and have high standards, it's not a lot, and I find this really is like. I found this really surprising of when I was working with these kind of senior managers, corporate leaders, business leaders etc. I thought, oh, you know, they're all down with leadership, they've got the basics nailed and everything like that. I'm like it's really not the truth at all. And the only thing I had to compare against was the military. I've never been in those other environments. I've been literally military and then pretty much coaching in some way shape or form. So I was really shocked. These guys are paying me a lot of money and we're kind of really focusing on really basic shit. But then you start to see is like but I understand that again, it's like a military basic training is the basic training? For a reason guys are skipping the foundations and like when you actually nail those down and you're consistent with them over a long period of time and you've got a really good structure in all areas of your life, is other things seem to start falling into place and this is the thing of like oh, the shiny shit, right, the shiny hacks, the shiny tools, the new program or the new concept, well, maybe at higher levels for tweaks, but not for most people. Most people don't need that to really get their shit in order and raise their standards. Focus on the basics. It reminded me of a guy. Actually, we had one of our programs and part of it do, because we use a lot of physical. You know, get your health in order, right, get your health and your well-being in order. So a lot of that's your food you eat, your exercise, all this stuff like the basics that people seem to know but not so many people seem to practice.

Speaker 3:

And for weeks he was saying I'm struggling to lose this weight and I says, well, have you just tracked your calories to see where you're at? Not to track them constantly, but just to see where you're at. You know, get some data and see where you're at. It's like oh, yeah, yeah. Then he's like oh, I saw this video by andrew hooberman when he talks about shaking to like lose body fat and I was like, dude, shut the fuck up. Is this like? Why are you watching videos? I'm shaking. I'm like just do the basics. Just do the thing you're avoiding and you will see the results happen very quickly. And then, like a few weeks later, he'd come back as oh yeah, so this has happened now and I did this thing, as, oh my god, I'm so fucking shocked. Um, so it's like looking for like an easy fix or or a magic secret, yet those things are actually the basics that people deem too simple. Oh, it's too simple.

Speaker 1:

It's too simple that there must be something else that's quicker and easier um, have you seen that south park episode where on ozempic where ozempic is this new weight loss drug and kartman goes in and they tell him about ozempic for losing weight and then they say how much it is? It's, you know, a couple thousand dollars a month and his mum can't afford that. So, like, okay for you, we prescribe you body positivity and Lizzo, so rich people get it, poor people get body positivity and Lizzo. And I think, like the reason I bring that up is one, it's funny, but two, it's because we really do need to filter out a lot of the rubbish. Like, yeah, I, in terms of standards, I think, like to think that I'm aiming for, you know, top 10.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to be average, and a lot of people are just happy being average and they try to. I feel like a lot of time people try to pull me down from having those high standards. Yeah, and it is a real challenge to filter these things out. You know people will say like you don't need to do that. You know, just have fun, let loose, have some drinks. You know, screw your discipline to go to bed late. Like, just have fun and party with us, and one of the things I think that is needed for success in whatever filter is discipline and to be able to filter those things out. And I really noticed with you, craig, is like you have such certainty in the things you say, and I think this is one thing that's really sort of undermined. Men is this sort of the one aspect of toxic femininity which is supposedly indecisiveness, so how do you manage to say, stay so certain?

Speaker 3:

I think stubbornness is a big part of that. But I think, from again, the military gave me so much confidence because I take a lot of my principles out there. I know they work without a doubt. I know for 100 that they work if applied, and also because I have lost my way.

Speaker 3:

When I left I did go down that track where I was kind of a bit lost and disconnected from myself and I was in this shit man. I've lost my identity. I don't know how. And when you're uncertain of yourself you look around to what other people are doing and what other people are saying, oh, I guess I should do this or I guess I should be like this. And fortunately for me, I had contrast where I loved who I was in the military and I fucking hated who I became outside of the military. And there's a balance point for that, obviously, because there's certain parts I needed to develop as a man that were very boyish in the military. But I think having the contrast of that and going well, I liked myself there, I don't like myself here. I'm going to go back to liking myself and being like that and if other people have a problem with is not my problem.

Speaker 1:

That's kind of how I see it, to be honest is that why you say roy keen is your spirit animal? Uh, he was just stalking my face?

Speaker 3:

it is no, but you know, it's like. It's like a kind of like, because I love to use humor as well and this is a big thing, right, he's like is humor is such a missing superpower in men's work. Um, right now, and basically in all self-development, people are so fucking serious and sensitive. If you can make fun of stuff that's supposed to be serious, you're, you're doing really well. It's like that's, that's a super tool, that is.

Speaker 3:

But like roy keen, like, look at roy keen, he's, he's like he's, he's kind of unpurposely funny, like people. People love him because he's just so. He didn't give, give a fuck. He just says exactly what he thinks. But that's why people like him, because he doesn't mince his words, he doesn't care, he's just like. This is what I think. And again, he has super high standards. I think he thinks most footballers are shit and most teams are shit. But it's like, I think, because he has super high standards, because he's been a champion at the highest level, and also he's like he just says exactly what he thinks. Yeah, yeah. So, spirit animal, I was going to say for that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, it's a good spirit animal. Yeah, I'm a man United fan and a big fan of Roy.

Speaker 3:

Keane.

Speaker 2:

So I think the worst ones, the um. I was going to say like for, for people who maybe do spend too much time behind a desk, on screens or whatever, can you give some like practical tips of how to sort of challenge yourself day to day? If you're living in a big city, sure, um, you maybe do work quite long hours like what do we can't be running up hills with built, with boulders, what, what practical things we could build into routine but you can scale that down again.

Speaker 3:

I'd say is like is is do something challenging. But again, it's like I think sometimes is make the barrier to entry kind of lower and more accessible, but still make it hard, right. So I'm like you could go out for a walk, go out for a walk but then throw some weight on your back, take a 20 kilo vest or some weight in your backpack and then go for a rock. It's like it's super simple, it's just walking but carrying extra weight, and for me it's like one of the best things for you. It's like you're getting stronger, you're getting fitter. Your body's got to adapt to get stronger because it's carrying extra weight.

Speaker 3:

It's hard, depending on how much you can carry and everyone can do it. It's like what excuse have you got to not go outside and walk? So you've got to cut, go outside and walk. Like so you gotta, you gotta cut through the, the excuses and the bullshit. I'm not saying like, oh, you gotta go, you gotta work out seven days a week in a gym for two hours and you gotta go and carry, uh, a boulder up your closest mountain and stuff like that. It's like, no, it's like that's an extreme level that you come to our events. For you can break that down into basics Do a load of press-ups every day it depends where you're starting at right Do 100 press-ups a day and do that for like 30 days, 90 days Can you be consistent with that?

Speaker 3:

Can you do that every day? If you can't, why are you even thinking about doing anything else? So this is the level of like simplicity I think that I look at through that military brain of, like you know, discipline, consistency. Do the same shit over and over again every day. That seems boring and monotonous. It's like, yeah, because if you can't do that, it's like you, just you, you got really no business looking at kind of stacking anything else on top of that. So things like that like not fancy at all. Will people go and do that? Probably not, but it's a good place to start.

Speaker 2:

Why is it that so many people fall away then from like New Year's resolutions or diet plans or fitness plans? What can people do who are just constantly finding themselves falling off this stuff?

Speaker 3:

I think people just put too much pressure on themselves or they don't understand. Like you know. You know, the way to have long-term change is like you know, small bites. It's like people go I'm going to change everything at once. It's like, no, you're not. Like, no, I'm not going to do that. I do the same thing.

Speaker 3:

It's like if I'm like putting a new habit in or I'm kind of upgrading the habits and I've actually not been doing this consistently over the last couple of weeks and like, okay, then it's like I'm obviously making it too much of a higher barrier to entry in my mind. So, what's something that seems super easy for me? I'm like, okay, that, oh yeah, yeah, that's super easy. Okay, me, I'm like, okay, that, oh yeah, yeah, that's super easy. Okay, let's see. Okay, I'm consistent with that. Let's hold this for a while and then build on it.

Speaker 3:

So it's like am I going to go and run a 10K every single day? I want to run every day. I have done it a couple of times this week. Okay, it's too much. Okay, rather than force myself and do a Goggins, it's just like, well, what's going to be a lower barrier to entry where my mind can be like, okay, that's easy.

Speaker 3:

Like you've got to cut for constant resistance. You've got to be able to cut for that constant resistance. It's always there. So, okay, a 5K, oh, that's great. That's like, you know, 20 minutes, 25 minutes or something. It's just like, yeah, sure, I with a dog, if I need to just chuck a, chuck my vest on or I can run that. Some days it's like, okay, yeah, cool, and I'm consistent with that and I stick to that. So it's and again, it's easy to say that, but people don't have that mentality and I always say it's mentality first. It's like you need to train and practice to have the mentality and the way of thinking to understand yourself and to be able to be adaptable in in building your foundations, building your habits and being able to hold them and be consistent with them and not talk to yourself like a piece of shit every time that you don't follow through with it yeah, I also think the what I mentioned earlier about sort of filtering out things.

Speaker 1:

I think when people want to change habits you know someone wants to lose weight and their partner is also needs to lose weight and doesn't want to lose weight they'll find ways of just chipping away and being like, oh, you don't need to go for that run or that kind of thing. It is such a challenge and it's really important to surround yourself with people with with similar mindsets that's a really good point and that's something as well.

Speaker 3:

That is really difficult, I think, for a lot of people, because I think it's not so much doing the things, it's like it's meaning what you're going to potentially lose as well. So if you're in a relationship and you'll go through this transformation and someone's not on board with that they don't want to do, that's fine. But that relationship might not last, it might not have much legs left in it and that's going to be a really difficult decision to make and that's really hard for a lot of people to do. And it's a lot of. These things are like you know, people who thought you were friends, it's like they might not be your friends anymore. You might have to go new circles. But I think something for me again, like a personalist, I think, because, again, being in the, the navy, I moved from ship to ship all the time and I met new people all the time. So when I left, I was again, and this is why I always put it down to mentality first, because it's not something that's unique to me, I think, it's a mentality. I really put that across because it is something that you can build and I would just go. Well, I'm doing this now and if you're coming along for that, cool if not cool, and not to say that there won't be some kind of bit of pain involved in that because it might mean you don't hang around with certain people anymore, but it's just like again, it's that you know level of self-respect and standards for self, that self-leadership, that well, I'm going over here and this is what I'm doing. If you don don't want to come, that's fine. It's like, do you? That's awesome. I'm not saying you have to, but this is just where I'm going and that's it. But a lot of people see that as selfish as well. Oh, you're just being selfish. It's like all right, cool, I'm creating the life that I want. And that is challenging because you will have again.

Speaker 3:

This comes back to the conflict as well in communication. Right, there might be conflict for that and a lot of people I find hate conflict. I don't enjoy conflict, but I've got no problem with it. I'll do it. It's uncomfortable but I'll do it. And again, I think part of that is again in the military, where we used to be so direct with each other. It looked like we were like about to throw fists, but it's just like.

Speaker 3:

It's just you kind of, in a way. You need that level of clear communication and being okay with conflict. Because of the level of risk environments that you're in. You can't be pissing around or like being like, oh I don't want to say anything in case somebody's feelings get hurt or someone gets offended.

Speaker 3:

It's just like you've got to be able to be like that, and I think part of that as well is like that dark side of masculinity as well, where, like the nice guy thing right, it's like guys think if I'm just really nice to people, then people will love me, people will do things for me, women will fuck me and all this whereas and I don't want to be an arsehole, I don't want to be seen as an arsehole, but everyone's got a bit of that arsehole in them and you have to be able to own that part of yourself that you might judge as an arsehole, because that's the part of you that's actually is great with putting boundaries down, saying no, being clear and direct with people, being okay with being disagreeable and and going in your own direction, regardless of, like, who's going with you or not yeah, and again I'm gonna repeat the whole filtering out things.

Speaker 1:

You know what you said, that people are going to call you selfish and you have to filter that out.

Speaker 1:

And then there's also this, this concept of stated and revealed preferences. I don't know if I've mentioned this to you before, andy, but I'm going to talk about nice guys who think that if they're nice, women will have sex with them. And there was a study they did where they had a load of pictures of men and women were to rate to their attractiveness and they rated the sort of the nice looking men you know, handsome but like non-threatening men, is the most attractive, boy next door type of person is the most attractive. But then they also they had the sort of the numbers, the sex numbers of each person. You know how many people each person had sex with and it was actually the men who looked the most threatening, who looked the most masculine, who looked the most scary, who had the most sexual partners. So it's like women say they want this nice guy, but then they don't actually sleep with a nice guy, they sleep with the intimidating, scary guy. And it comes back to that filtering out. You know the nonsense.

Speaker 3:

I have a phrase for that. That, again, is really difficult to get across in writing on social media without people taking it the wrong way, because there's no tone or context with it. In a sense it's, and it is a bit tongue in cheek, but it's like don't listen to what she says. Uh, pay attention to what she responds to, and there is actually a lot of truth in that. Like I joked with my girlfriend with this as well, because she's you know, she works on the south like a lot too. It's like we're like have a great relationship and and I said that to her she's like you're right, half the time I have no idea what I want. I have no idea. So it's like you shouldn't listen to what I say all the time. Absolutely like, most of the time I have no clue, and but it's again.

Speaker 3:

It's like and this is a big part of leadership as well. So when I'd say about leadership, I'm not just talking about like military leadership or business leadership and in the boardroom, etc. You'll actually find most of your areas you need to work on. Leadership is in a relationship like in a I'm talking about a man woman relationship um is you will find most of your areas to work with as a man in leadership in your relationships. 100 percent, um, and you'll tell that by how the woman responds to you in relationship, or how sexually attractive she is to you, or how much she instigates sex and like you know how she, how the level of respect and admiration and desire she has for you, the way she lights up around you, like how feminine she actually is in herself, how resentful or angry she gets, like lots of things is.

Speaker 3:

It's a lot of that is down to your leadership as a man. It's like, like I said at the start, is we don't actually focus that much on the relationship stuff as in like this in your relationship is like I mean you can, like you know a good bit about that, but I just find is like you focus on the man, is you're getting to prioritize himself and you're getting to install those kind of those masculine leadership traits and oh, fully enough, oh, she's starting to respond to you differently in your relationship, like shock yeah, I think that's a really key point that you said that the more masculine you are, the more permission you give her to be feminine.

Speaker 1:

And she may, and most women want to be more feminine not all of them do but yeah, for sex, I think the idea that we need to men need to be more feminine and women need to be more masculine like that just kills sex. Drive in in tantra and all these other things they really emphasize the masculine, feminine polarity. If you don't have men being men, women being women, then the sexual charge often goes away. And I see this in relationships. You know there's a woman who's, you know, crushing her job and the guy's sort of looking after the kids, and they're like, yeah, but we don't really have sex anymore.

Speaker 3:

Like it's great, but there's no sex drive, I'm not attracted to him anymore, and it's like, well, this might be one of the consequences of of that decision yeah, and it is, and even in that as well, like in relationship, it's not even meaning like you've got to be some big, jacked kind of yellowstone looking cowboy to be masculine, like I say. It's more of like character and the personality and the character traits of that of being assertive is standing your ground is. It's like I joke with hannah, my girlfriend as well as is like where she'll ask me things all the time. I'll try to get me to do things a fair amount of time. I'll say no and she's like, oh god, like jokingly. He's like I wish you'd just do what I wanted you wanted to do. All the time I was was like no, you wouldn't Cause you would absolutely fucking hate me if I just said yes to you all the time. And she's like this is true, yes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's what David data talks about. I don't know if you have read the way of the superior man. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. It's like, yeah, and men think they want they should submit to the woman and give them what they want, but they don't. The women actually want to know are you strong enough to say no to me? Because if you're not even strong enough to say no to me, then you're not going to be strong enough to protect me and I'm not going to. You know, I'm not into that yeah, it's.

Speaker 3:

If you look at the basic of, like what women need for men in relationships, right, it still goes back to how it's been for years.