Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness

How Your Shoes Are Wrecking Your Body: The Barefoot Truth with Philip Anthony Mangan

• Richard & Andy • Episode 35

Share episode

Send us a text

Cramped into those tiny football boots as a kid? Ever felt self-conscious about your feet? You're not alone! In this episode, we unlock the secrets to revitalizing your foot health and overall well-being. Discover the shocking effects of improper footwear and learn how barefoot shoes, like those from Vivo Barefoot, can turn things around. With expert guest Philip Anthony Mangan from Vivo Barefoot, we take a humorous yet informative dive into quirky fashion choices and the intriguing history of shoes, all while examining the ethical practices of this innovative brand.

We expose the uncomfortable truths about modern footwear, from narrow toe boxes to excessive cushioning, and how these design flaws disrupt natural foot movement and body mechanics. Explore the surprising connection between foot health and overall well-being, including its impact on your breathing. Learn how barefoot shoes can enhance athletic performance, reduce injuries, and even correct physical issues like knee pain. We also discuss essential tips for transitioning smoothly to barefoot shoes, ensuring you make the switch safely and effectively.

Engaging with the next generation is key! We highlight the importance of educating young minds about the health and environmental benefits of barefoot shoes. Striking a balance between occasional fashionable choices and the consistent benefits of Vivo Barefoot shoes is crucial. The conversation touches on the potential extremism within the biohacking and barefoot communities, advocating for a balanced approach. Don't miss our special discount code and explore the rich history and genuine ethos behind Vivo Barefoot. Tune in to transform your foot health and embrace a more natural way of moving!

FOLLOW OUR SOCIALS:
Guest: Philip Anthony Mangan
Website: https://www.philipmangan.com
https://www.vivobarefoot.com/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/philipanthonymangan
Instagram URL: https://www.instagram.com/philipanthonymangan/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/philipanthonymangan/

HOSTS:
Richard Blake
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/The_Breath_Geek
https://richardlblake.com/
https://linktr.ee/RichardLBlake
Facebook: @TheOptimisedU

Andy Esam
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andyesam/

PODCAST:
Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl_gOq4wzRjwkwdjYycAeng
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laughing-through-the-pain-navigating-wellness/id1726046369
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2TdW2qSWyVpXUyfKvNrBon?si=ff8aba9b92c24616
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2289623

Find us on Instagram
Richard @The_Breath_Geek
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl_gOq4wzRjwkwdjYycAeng
Webiste - www.TheBreathGeek.com
Please leave us a review, like and subscribe.

Speaker 1:

Hi Rich, I'm just going to hook the listeners in here. What's wrong with our shoes?

Speaker 2:

Wow, what an interesting hook. I bet the listener is desperate to find that out. What are so many things? Andy Gosh, did you know how bad our shoes were for us?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I didn't actually, and it's one of those episodes that both simultaneously, I was genuinely hooked by it but also quite worried, and I had a sort of playback of all the things I used to do when I was little. For example, I used to try and get smaller football boots, because I think I heard one time and that made you better, if you like cram your feet into a football boot that was slightly too small. God knows where I got that from.

Speaker 2:

Um, and all the horrendous mistakes I made with footwear and still continue to make yeah, yeah, um my, you know he liked to have a lot of fun with me, and one of the ways he would get into my mind was telling me that my feet were too big. Really, yeah, I think there's a bit of self-consciousness as well.

Speaker 1:

Because obviously your feet grow a bit before you do, and I was walking around with like size 9s when I was sort of 12 or something and it just looked so stupid.

Speaker 2:

So I think 12 or something. It just looked so stupid, so I think that probably had a role to play in it, and now I've probably buggered up my feet as a result. So, um, but it's not irredeemable, is it? No, there's plenty of ways you are going to learn, listener, how you can be saved. Saved like just yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it is like a religious saving in some regard I think it was genuinely very eye-opening and I I wasn't um insincere when I said I'm gonna get myself down to the vivo barefoot store in covent garden. Um, I've actually been a while ago, but I think I bottled it on fashion grounds, but I've seen some of the designs and they are actually pretty sick these days. So, and now I'm doing this, I suppose I've got a bit more credibility. You know, in the wellness world, they'll probably expect me to to be wearing vivos, won't they? Really, if they ever see me in, in, uh, in anything other, they'll be disappointed big time, big time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the fashion industry in the biohacking world is quite a weird one. So you've got regular people who just turn up in you know just normal clothes. Then you have the extreme biohackers who are all wearing these like, really like quite weird stuff, like they're all wearing like vivos with you know massive toe boxes, and then they all seem to wear these massive cargo pants like cargo pants yeah because they've got so many like devices and biohacks in their pocket.

Speaker 3:

I'm guessing they need 20 pockets yeah, they've all got weird like weird, weird necklaces and things.

Speaker 2:

And then they've obviously got the orange glasses and things. When you say they, you're one of them, Rich. Well, I tried to balance it. I tried to look like a cool normie slash. Ooh, he's got some slightly yellow glasses there. He's a bit quirky.

Speaker 1:

Well, you're going to have to address me for the biohacking conference next year in Austin. Yes, I'm going to look like a fish out of water, I think, just um, just going nuts. I'll wear the glasses, I'll wear the cargo pants. Obviously I'll have my vivo barefoot and um, yeah, you know, yeah, I might even just walk around with a red light as well just walking around flashing people. Yeah with my red light. Yeah, that's what I meant. What did you think I meant? But anyway, who's we got on today from vivo barefoot?

Speaker 2:

yeah, we've got philip anthony mangan, another model.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, he was a good-looking chap. I thought I wasn't going to say anything because I thought it was a bit irrelevant, but yeah yes, uh, it wasn't particularly relevant to to the show, but that's that's.

Speaker 2:

You know, if you're watching on youtube, check, check that out check it out, yeah so we learn all sorts about the history of of shoes and why they've been messing up, how we can recover from the torture that we've been placing our shoes in, and, yeah, some sort of wider themes as well. You know, running through sort of like foot orthorexia is that a thing? Have people become too obsessed with foot health and what's the sort of the antidote for that?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I think that they do seem like a genuinely good company and I thought I had no idea the association to clark's footwear, which is obviously a very um, well-established brand in the uk. So they obviously got the kind of um credentials behind them and they also seem like a very ethical, uh and yeah, spot on brand. So, yeah, I hope you enjoy listening about them and what you can do for your feet listener.

Speaker 2:

Hey listener, if you're enjoying the insights and stories we share on our pod, then don't miss out on any of our episodes. Hit the subscribe button to download and listen to our conversations at your convenience. At your convenience.

Speaker 1:

Philip, welcome to the show. I'm going to start you off nice and easy. What is wrong with our shoes?

Speaker 3:

That is an easy one. Well, first off, thanks for having me, and that is a question that I don't think most people realize. Hence, we've been wearing the same shoes since we've been born and we've been marketed to in a certain way and we just think it's normal. But when you look at the modern shoe, there's a couple things wrong with it. It's not. It doesn't have a wide toe box, it doesn't allow your toes to splay. Naturally you're jamming your toes into a small, small, small area and then it's cushioned. So then you're not able to connect to the ground and activate the actual muscles in your foot and then it's very rigid. So most modern shoes you wouldn't be able to roll up in a ball. So then it is not allowing your, your foot and ankle to move how it was intended to move. Thus you're not able to build that strength in your ankle. So you know, that's why I think a lot of people refer to like I need ankle support.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's because you just have weak ankles, but it's usually because of the shoes are there any other ways that the shoes are harming us, like they call it, like back problems and things like that?

Speaker 3:

well, yeah, I mean, and that's where I think that you can go from the cushion to the heel. So anytime you you have a heel, the larger the heel, the more obviously you're, you're, disconnected from the ground and and out of out of balance. I guess you would say so. Your alignment like so. Think about this like if you're walking around on a heel and not a very flat surface, connected from the ground and out of balance, I guess you would say so. Your alignment like so. Think about this like if you're walking around on a heel and not a very flat surface, you're going to be putting the majority of your weight on one part of your foot and that basically messes up the whole kinetic change. So it's like, basically, your foot, your feet, are the foundation for the rest of your body, so if you're out of whack in your feet, then it goes all the way up and essentially, a lot of people have back pain because of that. Interesting.

Speaker 1:

And so I suppose, why should we wear barefoot shoes? It's probably worth saying at this point you work for a company called Vivo or Vivo, how do I say it?

Speaker 3:

Vivo.

Speaker 1:

Vivo Okay cool.

Speaker 3:

And so why should we wear barefoot shoes? Well, yeah, I kind of just touched on that first question. Basically, so you know our feet, so our feet can move how they were intended to move, our feet and ankles. So, and then, essentially, so we can have better balance and stronger feet and and create less, less pain for ourselves and less um potential chances of injury yeah, I think, uh, I'm doing some further breathwork training at the moment and they were just did a little video on how our feet affect our breathing.

Speaker 2:

So you know these people were suggesting you know we kind of foam roll or golf ball roll our feet and we did that exercise and when we massaged our feet our breathing became more open. So it's like our feet are not did that exercise and when we massaged our feet our breathing became more open. So it's like our feet are not just these little things we cram in these little boxes, but they affect so much more of our body that's.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's amazing, honestly. Like when you start doing, you know, if you, if you get into like obviously, pat like first, obviously maybe one of the things that you do is just get barefoot. And if you start doing certain like things trying to do, they're called. It's called like toe exercise, like toga, it's called when you start seeing how much our body is connected. If you're doing these toe exercises, trying to like, potentially, raise one of your toes, your big toe, up, and keep the other ones down, you'll start seeing your hands kind of like maneuver a little bit. But that's just because we're connected. You know, we're trying to and we don't realize, like we're just so disconnected down there because we have this big barrier between us and the ground and most people go, most people go all day just wearing shoes like that, and obviously they don't think anything of it. So, um, you know, and then, as you mentioned, with the breath, work it's think anything of it. So, um, you know, and then, as you mentioned, with the breath, work it's the more you're releasing that tension.

Speaker 3:

There it's allowing you to relax more. Yeah, so what?

Speaker 1:

happened? Like is it? Was it just a slow corruption of, um you know, the fashion industry, having this big impact on us and us hearing that pointy is fashionable, or?

Speaker 3:

I realize it's not your responsibility, by the way, philip I should say yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly what happened, but I think it's like anything in life. I think there was good intentions behind it and then slowly it starts shifting, you know little, but little by little, and then that just becomes the norm and I think you don't really need to correct a problem if, like you, already have the tool, the proper tools. You, you know your foot. I mean, essentially, it's nice to have some protection on the bottom of your foot in case you're walking over different terrains. You don't want to get your foot cut on glass and all this different stuff or even rocks. But I think when it started it had good intention of protection.

Speaker 3:

And then it just slowly, over time, the heel got bigger, the cushion got more and you're trying to look for advancements in the shoe. How do you get people to keep buying things? You try to create the next version, the next best version. Well, you don't need to create the next best version if you already have it. You were born with it. So I think it's just one of those things you know, as we've seen probably in our lifetimes, it's just slow, the slow build, and then it just becomes like even now you start seeing some of the shoes that they're coming out with is crazy, like how big the cushion is and how like, and I mean, is there and they say it's technology. Is it really technology? Is it really helping us? And I think that to be determined in in reality. I mean it's. It obviously allows us to do certain things at a quicker speed, like, like, run, but you're running. You're running might be completely wrong from it and you're you're running disconnected and so, yeah, I think it's, it just happened over time.

Speaker 1:

I guess it's the simplest answer yeah, and so I've heard of friends who've got quite flat feet and then they get given shoes. They've got one of those really big artificial arches in. Is that completely the wrong approach then?

Speaker 3:

from what I'm hearing, well, I know the science behind flat feet a little bit more, very briefly, but I just know, like usually flat feet, unless there's a couple different types of flat feet and there's more. Very briefly, but I just know, like usually flat feet, unless there's a couple of different types of flat feet, and there's only a very, very small percentage of people with flat feet that actually need to make a actual bigger shift in their footwear with like adjustments. And I think it doesn't hurt to have like some arch support to start. And when you start, you want to build a strong arch. You're starting, you start with a insert, but the thing is people usually just think that they need it and they continue to have it and it's like almost kind of like a bandaid. It's like, hey, this is helping me, but you're not able to develop the arch if you're not actually using that insert.

Speaker 3:

So I think that's the issue here. It's like with a lot of people, even with like plantar fasciitis, it really is just a weakness of the foot. So then they're putting inserts in but you're not actually able to activate and you're obviously in these shoes that aren't allowing you to activate the muscles in your foot. So then it's obviously just again. It might feel good at first but over time you're just, you still have that same issue. So I think a lot of our like foot problems, that we think we can be corrected from like a quick fix of like an insert, just really need actually to put in the time and work. And the simplest thing you can do is just being barefoot more often and then, if you can't be barefoot, you can get into a pair of shoes that replicate being barefoot, like our shoes yeah, this reminds me of a theme we came up in our last episode with this guy, craig.

Speaker 2:

He's a men's worker and it's just all these sort of things we do to make our life easier actually come back to bite us and we're just, you know, we're no longer resilient our feet I've been. We think we're making solving a problem by putting shoe lifts on or arch supports and we're actually making ourselves weaker. And yeah, we just need to build up some strength in in in our feet. And yeah, I I had that problem. I had plantar fasciitis for for a long time and yeah, I went to a foot specialist and they created custom insoles with really supportive arches and it didn't didn't go away.

Speaker 2:

I could kind of manage the problem. It didn't get any worse. Then I switched to fiber, barefoot and doing those toe lifts toga, like you said, and yeah, I haven't really had plantar fasciitis since. So for me it was a real game changer. One other question I have is like I've had the toe lift in regular shoes. It's quite bad, like how we're almost like, yeah, the shoes that they have a high heel and then the toes go up at the end. How big of a problem is that?

Speaker 3:

yeah, well, number one obviously, usually the toe lift is not only lifted, but, yeah, I mean, the toe box is not only lifted, but it is small. So then, not only is it not allowing your toes to connect to the ground, but it's not allowing them to display, and the big toe is actually the foundation of our stability. So that's actually why we developed the big toe it was to actually keep us to stand and to be stable. So that's probably the one thing that you see most often is people, and we have this tool that we use when we do events. It's called a plantar pressure plate, and you get on, you stand on, you can stand on with your shoes on, but we show people, hey, this is how it looks with your shoes on. You usually can't see your foot and you're just saying, hey, well, how are you even activating your feet? But then when you put it on, when you put, take your shoes off and you get on there, you actually usually most people you won't see their toes being activated there, and that's the problem. It's like most people, as the cushion and the heels are doing, is making us have this like little lean back almost, and then when you look at that is that really posture. If you're not standing straight up, you're always leaning back almost in a way. So the toe not being able to activate that big toe is a very big problem. So we usually will prescribe how to correct that is doing those toe exercises, because that you're just starting to and it's very challenging, don't get me wrong, it's. It definitely takes some time and effort. But again, like if you're looking at it from like a longevity standpoint and an overall health standpoint, like anything, it's what you have to do, the work it's. It's like if you want to be fit and into later in life, you've got to stay active, you have to be doing the things, you have to be eating well, it's not like, hey, I'm just taking a pill and then I'm fine, so I did there it.

Speaker 3:

Feet are the same thing. There is no magic pill to it, but it's the actual, the easiest way you can actually start reversing this whole issues with your feet is just really just getting getting barefoot more often. I mean, it's simple as that and it's actually it's free. You don't necessarily need to buy the shoes, especially if you work from home, you know. Be barefoot all day and expose your feet to different elements, like even even your toes. There's different like little tools that you can do for, like balance and like gripping with your, gripping your toes. But there's lots of exercises, even just you know that you can do with a you know towel, grabs with your toes and that, and that's super simple. So, yeah, I'm glad you pointed out and it's like yeah, like, yeah, it almost creates that rocking motion when you don't, when you're not able to and I think that's probably what's allowing people to, to even get maybe a little bit quicker is you're not actually even on the ground as long yeah, um, what you said there about it being difficult, it's amazingly difficult.

Speaker 2:

when I was trying to do the um, keep your big toe down and lift up your other four toes and then go back and forward. Listen, you might want to give this a try. So, yeah, you press your four toes into the ground and lift your big toe up and then you swap. When you press your big toe down and lift the other four up, I do like three sets of 10 on that. When I first started, I could not do it at all. I was just staring at my feet for like five minutes. I was in a physical therapy center and it just looked like I was like a mad person just staring at my feet with nothing happening. I was trying to make my feet move but I couldn't. Eventually, after a few weeks of practice, it became just like doing it with my hands, but I just completely lost that connection between my brain and my feet.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that, and it's good that you pointed out like the brain connection, because that's I mean, if you look back when we first started walking, it's not like it. Actually you'll see, most people are not putting their babies right in a pair of shoes, because that's actually how you get that sensory feedback. So it's like, and we're basically blocking our sensory feedback and we've we've blocked it for so many years, like, and we're basically blocking our sensory feedback and we've we've blocked it for so many years that now we're just we just think it's the norm kind of thing, and and and that's the problem where, when it comes to doing those little toe exercises, that makes it so frustrating yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Another exercise I like is is marbles picking up marbles like 30 marbles and then putting them in a bucket with your toes. That's quite a fun one that is a good one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know how to live rich oh yes, that's, that's how I have my fun I thought you did the golf ball thing, rolling the golf ball on the.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that's for me that's for massage, and you know getting rid of um, you know tension and things like that. But then you also need to strengthen the feet as well. But you know, one thing I don't know so much is the toe spaces. Vivo sell those, don't they? Why? Why should we use those?

Speaker 3:

well, we don't make them specifically, but now we actually have them on our our website with one of our partners, neboso. But yeah, toe spaces are great because obviously it kind of helps in that getting that splay a bit more and letting the toes kind of uh, yeah, just loosen up, I guess your best way to put it. So when I before I even got into wearing vivos, I think that's a very good easy entry tool for people to use and and usually you'll see, like you put them on and but you're, you're not able to wear them long time, like a long period of time, because your toes will actually start to hurt because they're being like almost forced back into the natural position they had. But it's been so long since they've been there and unfortunately, yeah, it'll hurt. But over time it actually kind of helps, kind of, I guess not say speed up the process, because it's not a speedy process and I think it just it honestly helps getting you used to having that splay a bit more and maybe, once you do have a little bit more of a room in between your toes, it makes it almost those toe exercises a little bit easier, because you're actually used to having them splay like that. So yeah, they're.

Speaker 3:

They're a great tool and very easy entry point. You can get a pair for like probably $10 and put them on and wearing them, you can even wear them. What's cool about it is actually you can even wear them in Vivo barefoot shoes. So I had one of my colleagues. He kind of got me into the toe socks as well, so then it's like he was wearing the toe socks, then he had toe spacer on top of that, and then in the Vivos and it's like you're fully just like splayed the whole whole day. So it's it. There's levels to it, you know, and and I mean honestly, it really just depends on how, how crazy you want to get.

Speaker 2:

But I mean the, the general level is just being barefoot often and then even maybe using toe spacers yeah, I, I can remember seeing my my grandmother's feet, years of pointing pointy shoes and just like she was in all sorts of pain, like bunions and like toes, you know, curling in over each other. So that was sort of like the extreme end of it. It's like if you wear these shoes for like 80 years, your feet become malformed and they start to hurt you. So I mean, that's sort of the a very, a very good reason to not wear these really pointy shoes all the time and to get a bit. It's not just about getting optimal, it's about avoiding pain as well.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the bunions thing is. You just pointed that out. It's like, yeah, like that's how bunions. It's not like really like a hereditary thing, it's actually like just from you jamming your feet into a space and then it's creating the muscle, like the growth. Because of that, your feet are jammed in and you're not able to actually let your feet naturally splay.

Speaker 1:

So tell us what Vivo offers. Obviously, there are other barefoot brands out there, but we want to know what's special about Vivo. Yeah, what's really special about Vivo offers.

Speaker 3:

Obviously there are other barefoot brands out there, but we want to know what's special about Vivo. Yeah, what's what's really special about Vivo? And actually, like, when I first learned about the company, it kind of caught my eye the most. They're very big into the sustainability and they're trying to be regenerative as possible with, like the footwear that they create. So they are a certified B Corp and you don't really see that I mean I'm not sure if there's any other brand in the footwear industry that is a B Corp it's because the supply chain is just it's a crazy. A lot of times you'll see like most shoes are. They have like 25 or 30 touch points.

Speaker 3:

So it's very hard to be sustainable in the footwear industry. But that's vivo's goal. It's not about just connecting people back to nature and connecting yourself to the ground. It's actually they. They believe by connecting people back to nature, they actually want to take care of it and I think that's and that goes for us like as a company. It's like we want to set that example. It's not like we're not just creating a piece of footwear for your health, it's like for the health of the planet and that's the I think the real cool part about it is it's. They're always looking about it. How can we do better and how can we create less waste?

Speaker 2:

yeah, and it's interesting that it was set up by one of the family, the sons of the clark's family, right. So in the us I don't think clarks are very famous, but all my, all my shoes when I was a kid were from from clarks. They were, you know, huge, huge shop franchise album. That was a franchise but shoemaker in the uk yeah, no, it's.

Speaker 3:

It's a real cool, like when you hear the story, go to these company events and even get to talk to the founders, their seventh generation cobblers, and I think that's actually, if you look way back. It's kind of like how Clark started, in a way of like wanting a wider toe box, like an actual foot shaped shoe. So it's just even for them too. They probably steered away from that over time, just happened to be that way, but it is really cool to see that they're, you know, this seventh generation family and then they're trying to actually correct the damage that's been done, in a way, from many shoes and what kind of range of footwear do you have?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we honestly we make it all, which is pretty amazing. I don't know many other companies doing that. And yeah, we have obviously a whole fitness range and we have outdoor range boots, trail running shoes, and then we have a big category of lifestyle shoes when it comes to like sneakers, everyday wear, to sandals, to lifestyle boots. So it's it continues to kind of grow, I think, in that realm, because I think one thing that people don't realize, especially like in the, when it comes to barefoot shoes, it's like the more you wear them, the more benefits you're going to have. So you'll see a lot of people in the, in the training space, wearing vivos, I think because they understand the science behind it most especially like the trainers and physios, chiropractors, all the health professionals. They understand vivo pretty well. But in the training space specifically, you'll see people either barefoot in the gym or maybe wearing vivos, know Vivos or another barefoot shoe, but when they get out into the gym they put their feet back in those shoes again. The small toe box, the thick soles, and there's just this big disconnect that actually, in reality, you'll get more benefits if you don't even you know if you're not wearing them in the gym. If you're wearing them.

Speaker 3:

I think the main study that was done it was done by like Oxford university is like I think it was done over like a six month period of time. It's if you wear vivos basically like six days a week, I guess you would say like 80% of your time over a six month period. The studies show that you can increase your foot strength up to I think it was like 58%. So it was like 58%. So it was like just by walking around in them everyday life, you're increasing your foot strength and I think that's probably where the disconnect is there in the but also it comes from, like, our desire to be fashionable.

Speaker 3:

I think and I never used to think like barefoot shoes were that fashionable Like when I first learned about them. I think it was. I discovered Vivo in like like 2018 after I got, like my personal training certification. I just kind of was able to connect the dots of like you know, being barefoot is is better for you, and I just remember seeing their, their range and being like I'd wear these to train in, but I don't really see any like fashion staples of like in my wardrobe, but now it's that's one of their biggest focuses, like cause that's. I think, believe like that's how you get the general population is you create something that's not only functional, that is actually has some fashion to it as well.

Speaker 3:

So, there's the growing range of the lifestyle, but I'd say we are probably we've been the most popular in the in the performance range.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that is. I'd echo that point that when I first started wearing vivos, I felt a little bit self-conscious about it, but now, yeah, the designs have really improved. I love the new motor strength ones. I think they're the best looking ones and they're the best for like training, crossfit, and we were speaking off air about professional athletes wearing Vivos, but I think CrossFitters professional CrossFitters could be wearing Vivos or perhaps should be. But yeah, do you want to elaborate on that point about athletic shoes?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, as you, as you guys know, it's like I mean most athletic shoes are they? They fall into the same category, just like smaller toe box and they, and also like cushion, especially when it comes to like basketball players and stuff like that and it's and and usually they're they're rigid as well. So there's, they're actually falling into the same category, just like most modern day shoes, but where we see kind of like the, the athletes using vivos is not on the court or on the field, it's it's actually off the court and off the field for their training, so basically being able to strengthen their feet and ankles. So when they actually get onto the court it actually enhances their performance and it's been. It's been really cool to see a lot more athletes in our shoes. We've been.

Speaker 3:

A lot of people are reaching out to us, whether it's the trainers from the teams or agents with the players interested in trying them out, and for us it's like I think when you see it from like in the performance space and on the athletic, like pro sports level, you know that it actually is going to make a very strong impact, because pro athletes wouldn't be doing using something unless they actually believed in it that it would enhance their performance and I think they're understanding the science now.

Speaker 3:

Especially their trainers are usually the ones introducing it to them. So I think a lot of exciting possibilities in that space for athletes that have only done it one way, especially basketball players. You think about that? It's like they're really disconnected from the ground and their feet and they use. Obviously they're going in all different types of direction on the court and a lot of people have, like ankle sprains or Achilles issues and all these different things that could actually might even be prevented by actually just having stronger feet for when they actually get on the court. So it's exciting times that now it's getting recognized barefoot shoes for actually, or even just more barefoot training yeah.

Speaker 2:

There are some sort of. There is a bit of a transition to wearing barefoot, isn't there? I've worn them for running. When I first started, I started to get a little bit of shin splints. I also wore them for tennis once and I got quite bad blisters and things like that. So so what? How? When people should are thinking about transitioning, what should they think about?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I mean it's. I think the best way to like look at it is think about it this way like if, if you haven't like worked out, like you didn't go to the gym for like a month or two months, now say, like, enhance that to like 20 years of your life. Like you go to the gym and you work out, you're going to be really sore the next day. And especially if you work out really hard like, hey, I'm going to go out. So it's a very same same with your like your feet. Your feet haven't been worked out. Essentially they haven't. They haven't been put through that.

Speaker 3:

So it's always best to kind of like go slow and easy with the transitioning. We usually say wear them, try it like, wear them around the house for a little bit, wear them outside for like a short walk and kind of see what feels good and what doesn't feel good. If it starts to feel like discomfort, then maybe get out of them and let your, your body, get used to them them. So I think a lot of people have the the issue with doing too much in them to start. So it's really better to start slow and easy, even for me, like when I first got them and I kind of learned, I kind of knew about the transition a little bit, but I, of course, like I pushed a little too much and I ended up.

Speaker 3:

I ended up just running in them. But that was also because I, before I got vivos, I I got these like socks that were kind of like sock shoes in a way, so very same, and I got up to like a 5k over time. But it took a long, long time to even get up to that and it takes a long time to stay at that level where you're. I wouldn't say my feet are as sore, but my calves, they feel it the most, I think, whenever I'm going a further distance. But yeah, it's one of those things where you just need to take it slow and easy and and just listen to your body. To be honest, I think that's the best way to do it, like all things, like if, if you're feeling it, then back out and then see how you're feeling tomorrow and then maybe get back in them and go a little bit further.

Speaker 1:

And are we wearing socks with Vivo, or ideally not?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean you treat them like they're um regular shoes. I mean I, I mean you can, you don't have to wear socks with them, but I, I treat them like they're regular shoes, as in like to reduce the smell and yeah, that's what I'm thinking from a hygiene point of view yeah, yeah, that's really where it is, I mean, but yeah, like uh, you don't have to wear them. I guess that's the best way to put it and when you're running 27k, you which?

Speaker 2:

which model are you wearing, like the primus light or the special trail running shoes?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I was wearing one of the special trail running shoes there.

Speaker 3:

They have like a michelin sole, so like michelin tires, it's a very rugged sole, so and that was that was actually very helpful for the mountain run and we were going over different terrains and it was actually very helpful for the mountain run. We were going over different terrains and it was actually the one that I wore was the Hydra ESC, which is actually made for swim runs also and just made to drain very quickly and thankfully I wore those ones because it was very, very muddy, wet terrain so I wasn't really afraid of of jumping in the mud and the funny thing was watching, actually, other people that didn't have vivos on going into the like, into like the mud or other things, and you can just see how unstable they were and when you're going into these different elements, how you're cause if you have that cushion and you're going into this like terrain, that's not very like allowing you to connect to the ground. It's almost like you're just more prone to like an ankle roll or falling down where were you doing that run?

Speaker 2:

not not in florida, I hope.

Speaker 3:

100 degrees humidity not in, not in florida, actually did it in sweden. Um, yeah, so it was. Yeah, it was beautiful, honestly, and I I kind of decided to do it last, like within like the the week prior to it, and I wouldn't say like I was 100% trained up to go that far, but I would say that like I just was like all right, I'm gonna take it slow and easy, and there's a lot of elevation gain, so it was like you're walking up the hills more so and then just running down them and through the other areas. But yeah, it was beautiful. I mean, I couldn't pass up running in that beautiful location, even though there was other distances. It was actually like a week-long running event, so it was cool. And Vivo was actually one of the main sponsors for the event, so it was cool to kind of see people's interest in the shoes.

Speaker 1:

And you mentioned, it's very much like a growth industry. I think I'm seeing them more and more on the streets of London. Does that mean the kind of the science is catching up and in terms of like medical knowledge as well? Because I'm just thinking? I know people with bunions and not once has their doctor recommended a change of footwear. It's always oh, you can get these corrective splints or you can get quite expensive and probably very painful operations. So I mean, is the science now?

Speaker 3:

catching up with the idea that these things can actually really help your feet.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I believe so. I think it's about getting the right educators on board to educate people. I mean, at the end of the day, when you think about anything that changes over time, it all starts with an open mind by you, the consumer, also you, the educator, and I think, with all these different health tools and advances that are people's interest in how to biohack their health, it's really, I think, opening the door for Vivo a bit more. And it's kind of honestly, when you think about it in general, it's like one of the simplest ways you can do it is just be barefoot more and then, if you understand that being barefoot more, then you say, hey, well, how can I replicate this throughout the rest of my day when I can't be barefoot? And then you get into the shoes, but I do believe it. Just, yeah, people are just being more open-minded. And I think, also, when you think about it from a generational standpoint, you have this group that you know maybe have older people that have been taught a certain way and that are harder to change.

Speaker 3:

Then you start seeing the younger crowd of educators come in that are more open-minded and that are learning different sciences than the people above them, and I think that's probably where it's starting to catch on more and people are picking up on it. And then again it goes into maybe it's going into multiple areas education, but also the looks of it, and then the popularity and it's like kind of almost like boiling up in different areas to where it actually is creating more of a buzz, which is, yeah, it's really cool. I know, obviously whenever I go to London, that store is packed. There's always a long line outside of it and it's just really cool to see that people are willing to wait in line to get into this store and purchase shoes that are barefoot, and I'm excited to see whenever Vivo gets their first store in the US. I think it might take some time to grow to that level where it's a line out.

Speaker 1:

But I do think there's a big opportunity here. Yeah, and can you talk a little bit about how you're, how you're trying to position it in the market? I know you work with pro athletes. Is that right? And what's your like marketing strategy? How are you kind of getting the message out there?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I would say in multiple areas. I'd say like, obviously, the athletes is. We haven't really dove into the the marketing aspect of the athlete show. It's really just about getting it on their feet. That's that's where it all starts, with everyone is you. You get the shoes on someone's feet and then, especially if at a pro level, it carries into the locker room with the rest of the athletes and then the influence of athletes and professional level is is obviously helpful to grow a brand which there's again so much possibility with that. So I'm excited to for us to get to that point where we're actually potentially having someone, whether it's in a baseball player athlete or someone in the NBA. We do have John John Florence the surf, the professional surfer, who we partnered up with, which has been very helpful for the brand growth.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, I think it's all about being very strategic in different ways.

Speaker 3:

Obviously, we're focused on the younger generation as well, because when you get the younger generation in and they understand it, then it's and also I think the younger generation is a bit more open-minded to these different health you know the benefits of Vivo but also the environment, caring for the environment, which is obviously what Vivo is all about.

Speaker 3:

So I think, when you look at it from a marketing standpoint, you focus on the people that are more open-minded, rather than being needing to correct and really convince someone on a greater level that it might be harder to convince on like someone that's done something 50, 60 years of their life. But I do think overall we're diving into different areas, but it all starts with the education and finding great educators to actually explain to people why our shoe is different than the modern shoe. And that's not the easiest job, especially if you're not open-minded. But there's a lot of great people that we work with that are actually generating, helping grow the brand, and it's really exciting to see I mean, I've been with vivo now for um almost two years and it's just really cool to see, like how much of an impact some of these people that that we're partnering up with have yeah, that that growth mindset I think is is what vivo has and I think it's what all our our guests have and all our kind of listeners have.

Speaker 2:

And I think, yeah, there's that, that term from carol dweck, the growth mindset. I think there are probably, let's say, 50 of the people have a growth mindset. 50 of people are just, they don't want to change. And I get very frustrated when, you know, speaking to people who just they just want a reason not to change, they don't want any discomfort. But uh, yeah, vivo really embody that growth mindset. They're always looking to grow, always looking to improve. And I I've went into that covent garden shop and met ben lavisconte and had like started having a great chat with him and then just realized, yeah, he was completely on the same wavelength as me. I did a breathwork session for him and I think he had a very good experience and we did a natalia and I did a breath workshop in that shop in covent Garden.

Speaker 2:

So we did conscious connected breathing on the floor of the shop, uh, with with a load of people from Vivo and yeah, it was awesome. But yeah, just going on to a slightly more technical question, um, I think some people just uh, you know they are fashion conscious, I, you know guilty. I am barefoot most of the time and I train in Vivo barefoots. How much damage am I doing If I go into, like, a pair of vans you know I want to go out to dinner and the vans look better with what I'm wearing how much damage am I doing from wearing shoes for like three to four hours?

Speaker 3:

Oh, I mean, I think I think again you can almost go back to the study that I've kind of quoted. I think as long as you're in them, in the barefoot shoes or being barefoot the majority of the time, you're not really doing a whole lot of damage, like I think again it's. I think it's the opposite. If you're to flip-flop that and you were like, hey, I'm going to be in my vans the rest of the time and only be in Vivo's like three, four hours, you're kind of missing out on the benefits. So I mean, I don't think even Vivo expects everyone to, you know, have every single shoe that they own, a barefoot shoe. I mean also, that would probably go against our company mission of, like, creating more waste.

Speaker 3:

It's not like, hey, go throw away all your shoes. I mean I, if I go to a wedding, I'll still put my, my feet in a. I put it into a coffin, I guess, and I don't really worry. I just I just noticed the difference, that's the best way to put it. Like I'm not thinking like, oh, this is going to reverse everything. It's just like my feet hurt more when I'm in those shoes, you know, and I want to get them out of there. So it actually is like not a lot of damage, but I think you'll notice the difference, that especially the more you actually are barefoot and you go into a shoe that might look more fashionable, but you'll probably notice the difference and not want to be in it for as long.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and there definitely are a lot of people in the biohacking world who are extreme, who have probably burned all their regular shoes and just bought bought vivos. I definitely know some people who only ever wear vivos and chiropractors who say you should never wear anything but Vivo. But I think that we need to invent a term like orthorexia. You know, food obsession and there is now like a tracker obsession. Apparently there is like a mental health disorder where people get so obsessed with their aura rings and things like that. Maybe there needs to be a barefoot shoe mental health disorder word. I mean we can coin that here.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, it's like anything, it's it. There's always going to be people that are on that extreme approach of of doing things and it's like it's almost kind of like like when I I want. Actually, what kind of like led me into like more of the? The desire for more like sustainable brands is what, when I went vegan and I went vegan more for like the, just I was interested in like the health aspect of it and but you know, like I remember when I first went vegan and I saw these people like the extremist of the vegan world and it's like, oh, you can't do this or can't do that. I'm like, well, I'm going to do it my way. That keeps me sane and like you know, and I think that's the thing it's like.

Speaker 3:

I think think you hear this majority of the time too. With even just any diet, it's like if you eat clean, like still 80% of the time you're going to be fine. You know it's really when you flip it the opposite way, where it's like it's bad for you. So I think there's always going to be scenarios where people just want to go above and beyond. Good for them there. There's no harm in that, but also there's no harm in putting your foot in another shoe for a little bit of time, and I think there's a lot of room for growth, especially in the fashion aspect of of barefoot shoes. And I think we're, we're, we're slowly seeing it and when it gets there, maybe you'll find a pair of vans that are like, or vivos that look like vans, and then you'd wear that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's another sort of theme that I see running through so much of society. It's like the people who are the most mentally ill are the ones who speak loudest. You know, the people who are the extreme carnivores and the extreme vegans are the ones who are most vocal. Yet we don't realize that these people probably have orthorexia the ones who are most vocal yet we don't realize that these people probably have orthorexia. And, yeah, they become the spokespeople because they're full of rage. And then it's the same thing with, you know, religious fundamentalists and political extremists. It's always. It's always the extremes that sort of give everyone else like a skewed idea of what normal is and what normal and what healthy is. But yeah, that's I think that's the message of this podcast.

Speaker 1:

Just let's be normal yeah, I think, uh, I think we're trying to do that. Yeah, um, so let's say, someone's listened to this, they are convinced, they are still teetering on the edge of being convinced by vivo. Is there any way you can find kind of like or you can share any stories or testimonials of people using the shoe who've had such significant benefits? You mentioned the oxford university study over the six month period, but where can we hear more about vivo users?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I would go to the obviously social media page. Vivo works with a lot of people that have either used Vivos to correct something or use it because they know the benefits of it. So they'll be able to explain the different benefits in that way on their website so you can read reviews over there too. But yeah, it's, I think, like just googling barefoot testimonials. I think you'll you'll find a lot of people that have actually corrected a lot of issues with themselves, and I think that'd probably be the best route to go on. If you really want to dive into the research more, I know like vivo actually has a on their website. We have a whole page set up too about the different science behind everything, if anyone's keen to dive more into it.

Speaker 1:

I was thinking people might actually correct things they don't even know are connected to their feet. To be honest, I think I'd probably fall in that category. If I've got a bad knee, I wouldn't even cross my mind that it would be to do with the way I walk or my feet. I'd actually dig into the science.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think. I think honestly, it's like with the knee pain. A lot of people have knee pain from like when they run and stuff and it's like, uh, usually that's just like most. I mean, when you're wearing like modern day running shoes, you're usually not landing like properly. It's kind of messing up your running form and then people will see that correction of ease of pain, because when you're wearing barefoot shoes, your form kind of gets naturally corrected because you can't land on your heel without it really killing you. You know it's like. So over time people will understand how the proper running form is. Obviously there's tips and tools to like. We do actually have a barefoot running course. We have a lot of educational courses on the website. That is something to highlight. But, like, over time usually you'll you'll start seeing that correction and then when you are landing properly, then you're you're not engaging like those areas that you're not supposed to, and that's you'll see the pain relief interesting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've got to be honest, I'm, I've, I'm not currently an owner of vivo barefoot shoes. Um, I know my shoe size because I went into the store one time. But this is, this is gonna tip, tip me into. Uh, yeah, taking the plunge nice, nice.

Speaker 2:

I love that do you have like a discount code?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I can, um, I can create one for you guys, if you want, and then you can have your own own one that you can share with the.

Speaker 1:

You know this episode that's great, that's great, thank you yeah, and where do we find you for that?

Speaker 3:

well, you can find me, um, go to my personal instagram, philip anthony mangan. Feel free to say hi if you have any uh, you know questions. If you listen to this episode and you want to learn more, I can either answer or I can direct you to the right person. But, like Ben Levescante, like he knows so much more, I'm always excited to be around people that know more about the barefoot shoes than me and just like the science behind it, and it's, I think, that's what's great about the position I'm in. I'm really around a lot of educators. I'm even managing a lot of people that are doing the education and on another level, so it's, it's really cool to uh to see and, yeah, I'm happy to you know, help out in any way I can awesome.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you very much for your time and, um, yeah, vivo just seems like such a genuine and ethical brand, and I actually didn't know anything about the history in terms of Clark's family, and that's. That's awesome. Yeah, add some credibility as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah, keep going. Keep up the good work.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you guys. Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2:

All right, thank you, cheers, tony. What are your key takeaways? Our episode. I knew you could ask me that, oh, really is that because you asked me to ask it off air.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I asked. I asked you to ask it just about just before we went on air the. Um, I think we're genuine. I'm genuinely going to go and get a pair, because if you see the difference between how the end of a normal shoe tapers and how vivo actually kind of look I mean it's chalk and cheese. It couldn't be more opposite and like the splayed look, I don't know how I'm going to get used to it, fashion wise, but I'm going to have to suck it up because, um, it seems we are doing, uh, in some cases, irreparable damage to our feet by cramming them into these. Um, I can't remember the phrase he used, but the small toe box shoe, yeah, coffins foot coffins yeah foot coffins.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's pretty dramatic, but yeah, it's um. No, it's, it's irrefutable science.

Speaker 2:

It seems no one's going against that yeah, and I think this is one of those biohacks that anyone can do. You know a lot of people will be like, oh, I don't really want to change because I don't have the time or I don't have the money or things like that, and it's like, yeah, okay, um, well, this is one that's sort of less than free. You know, you just go barefoot and then you'll wear out your regular shoes less. You'll spend less money on on shoes if you just take your shoes off more. Yes, um, so there's there's no real excuses. From that point of view, it's a bit like cold showers. You know they're. They're less than free because you're not spending the money on on hot water. Um, but yeah, my kind of advice for for switching to to barefoot shoes is obviously, I go barefoot around the house as much as possible.

Speaker 2:

Um, I really like the. If you're going to the gym, I really like the motor strength ones, and then they've got these motors flex ones as well and they look really good. Uh, I was actually in the gym and someone came up to me like, oh, my god, are those vivos? Like, oh my god, they look so good. I used to. I looked into them a few years ago and I didn't like the look of them, but those look look sweet. Um, I'm gonna go buy some. And then the hiking boots yeah, we were just talking off air about the hiking boots because I think they look really good as well. Like I think hiking boots. Maybe it's not obviously not so important fashion in hiking as it is with you know, lifestyle yourself gym shoes.

Speaker 1:

I like to look incredibly well presented up the mountain fair enough, um, but I think they look cool.

Speaker 1:

I think they look cooler than regular hiking shoes yeah, I think the reason I bottled it um first time I went into the vivo store in covent garden is because I think it was just once you get up to my size um, which is the uk 11 and a half it. It does look quite big and quite slippery um, but I think you just got to suck it up and just think well, I'm doing good for my feet and there we go. End of chat, but no a lot of the designs are very, very good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and, as you said, you don't have to wear them all the time. You don't have to go on a first date and feel like I'm wearing flippers. You can wear your cool shoes, andy. Yeah, okay shoes, andy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, good to know. All right. Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as we did, and also worth mentioning. Um, very, very kindly. Uh, philip has given us a code to pass on to you 20 off vivo barefoot, so there's really no excuse to give them a go yes, we'll put that in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

And yes, where do they find us, andy? What else?

Speaker 1:

great question they find you at the breath geek and they find me at andy esam. And there's also a fantastic website called richard l blake dot com.

Speaker 2:

Oh yes, check it out it's.

Speaker 1:

It's brimming with blog posts, but we do put a blog about every episode, so if you want to read more about the episode, check that out on my website and also I'd encourage you to go on the vivo website and look at all the testimonials and sciencey bits, because obviously we couldn't fit all of that into a 45 minute episode yeah, and the newsletter.

Speaker 2:

Now we're doing the newsletter coming out bi-weekly and there's extra, additional content, additional insights from me, and you'll be kept up to date with what's going on for us over here at the show all right until next time.

Speaker 1:

Bye.