Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness

The Posture Myth: Why You’ve Been Doing It All Wrong – with Natalie from Spiro Health

• Richard & Andy • Season 1 • Episode 38

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Unlock the secrets to achieving lasting physical well-being as we sit down with Natalie from Spiro Health, an esteemed chiropractor specializing in Advanced Biostructural Correction (ABC). Forget what you've learned about posture being a conscious effort; Natalie enlightens us on how ABC offers a revolutionary approach that could transform your relationship with your spine. We tackle common myths surrounding posture and exercise, sharing practical tips that require no fancy equipment, promising relief from those persistent aches and pains.

Embark on a journey to optimize your spinal health with our discussion on a three-month stabilization program designed to reshape your body with twice-weekly sessions. Natalie walks us through the spine's unique ability to self-correct—except when it comes to backward bends—and how this knowledge can be leveraged to prevent common injuries. The importance of consistency, the influence of footwear, and the role of everyday activities in spinal health underscore why the spine is the unsung hero of our overall biomechanics and well-being.

Explore the nuances of safe exercise practices, with a spotlight on yoga's impact on the body and how to maintain neutrality in your movements to avoid injuries. Memory foam mattresses and shoes are put under the microscope as we question their true benefit to body alignment. From ideal sleeping postures to the choice of shoes, we leave no stone unturned in providing you with a comprehensive guide to better health. Plus, discover how frequent posture changes and awareness during daily routines can greatly enhance your comfort and health. Let Natalie’s expertise inspire your journey to a healthier spine and a more comfortable life.

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Guest: Natalie Robertson
Website: https://spirohealth.co.uk/
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Andy Esam
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Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
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Speaker 2:

hello, oh, hello oh, it's me, hey, big breath big sigh that was, um, that was the most unprofessional I've ever been. Um, when people were warming up for that podcast but not even warming up we started recording. I was at a huge breath and we had to stop recording. I felt a bit embarrassed about that. But after that, what a cracking episode. Who's it with?

Speaker 1:

it's with natalie from spiro health and she is an advanced biostructural correction chiropractor. So we get into the body in some ways, not not, you know, not in the weird way, but like how to sit, how to sleep, how to stand the injuries. We pick up the things we might be doing wrong unknowingly that are affecting our bodies, if we're creating aches and pains and things. So, yeah, I feel like people are going to learn a lot.

Speaker 2:

I think you might have learned a lot too absolutely, yeah, I um I did learn a lot and I think um jam-packed full of practical tips, which is always a good thing, um no fancy gizmos needed, um, and she actually said the best chair is the ikea dining chair, which my machine is not in the same price bracket as a lot of the uh office stuff you are seeing these days. So some really interesting uh revelations as well. Um, and good tips for, yeah, sleeping standing.

Speaker 1:

And well, there's a lot of hope in there, isn't there because, um, you know, it sounds like abc can really uh sort your body out in a way that you might not think is possible yeah, absolutely that was what it gave me because, as I said in my story, you know, I had this sort of downward trajectory of more and more injuries, less and less mobility, until I find found abc and it really, yeah, it flipped my trajectory from a downward spiral to an upwards one. So, yeah, listen up, listener, if you are someone who needs a bit of help and hope with regards to your, your body and your structure yeah, enjoy hey, listener, if you're enjoying the insights and stories we share on our pod, then don't miss out on any of our episodes.

Speaker 1:

Hit the subscribe button to download and listen to our conversations at your convenience. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. Tell us how does ABC differ from traditional forms of chiropractic care?

Speaker 3:

And yes, that is the million-dollar question that I get asked most days Rich. So ABC is an acronym, for it's quite a mouthful advanced by a structural correction. I studied in South Africa originally and I did a technique of chiropractic called diversified. So there's I mean, don't get me wrong, there's about 200 different types of techniques of chiropractic. So, and all of them work really well, I would say, and I was doing really well using my technique when I came across ABC, it became way more predictable for me.

Speaker 3:

I had people in my office going and experiencing miracles in their body every week, which is so rewarding as a practitioner. And what I would say is traditional chiropractic it's all by hand, which is fantastic, because that's the healing power of what we do. It's all by hand, which is fantastic because that's the healing power of what we do. But in traditional chiropractic you are changing somebody's configuration of what's happening in their body, which gives them temporary relief, in my opinion, whereas ABC is a longer-term, more permanent, more transformational treatment, because you fix the body literally. I mean that sounds like car salesy, but you do, you fix the body, and I've been doing it now for long enough to be able to really say that with confidence. So we work with what the body can't fix, so you can fix yourself.

Speaker 3:

And specifically, if you want to get specific.

Speaker 2:

I'd like to get specific, if that's all right, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So, andy, if you think about the spine, the spine has three curves to it, and from behind, ideally you want to be a hundred percent straight, and it's made up of Lego pieces called vertebrae, basically. And where those vertebrae sit in terms of biomechanics, and all the curves, is really important for how it props us up. Because when you talk about posture, posture isn't something and all you listeners out there are going posture and everyone sits up straight. Or as soon as I say a chiropractor, they're like oh, you do chiropractic and everybody sits up really straight. It's hilarious. You should not be thinking about your posture, it should just be there. It should be something that when you stand up, you're standing upright, you're breathing, while your ribs are moving, while your head's in a good position. It's not a conscious thing. So that's one thing, because a lot of people think, oh, I can do chin tucks, I can hang off the end of my bed to get the arch back into my neck, I can do these millions of exercises and stretches and actually pointless. So back to structure these Lego pieces or these vertebrae. They have millions or hundreds of muscles around them to stabilize them. We don't have muscles attached in the spine that can pull one vertebra backward on another. That's the only time, as a human being, we struggle to correct ourselves, because otherwise we're designed to correct ourselves. That's one of the biggest premises of ABC.

Speaker 3:

So when these bones go forward and it doesn't have to be from major car accidents or rugby tackles or big falls or traumas, it can be from the things that we do every single day, like sitting in a certain position, working as we are now, like having this podcast, or sleeping in bed. Where's your head? Where's your pillow height? What's your mattress doing? What shoes are you wearing? These have an impact on these little Lego pieces or vertebrae. So when bones go forward, ie your body looks more collapsed or more hunched over, we don't have muscles to pull that back. So once you've collapsed a vertebra, that's it for us.

Speaker 3:

Now, instead of us falling over, the body's super clever and it twists up to compensate for that. So we don't fall over, we just twist up. But now these little twists happen from a really young age and change the biomechanics of the body. But they don't only change the biomechanics. They'll change how the blood flows. They'll change how the brain communicates with the nerves. They'll change how the blood flows. They'll change how the brain communicates with the nerves. They'll change how hormones are distributed around the body. So there's a whole lot of different things that can affect, but basically it's these compensations or twists that create a pattern and then when you use a body that's twisted up, you start wearing yourself out. So there's a lot of evidence of us reversing things like arthritis, reversing knee issues. There's x-rays pre and post of somebody having ABC. You know, one or two or three years later and you're looking at a completely different spine, completely different knees, completely different hips. It's fascinating.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is fascinating and I am a big advocate for ABC. My story, I think, is probably quite a typical one in that I was doing a lot of CrossFit at the time. Well, prior to that, I was doing a lot of football, soccer, and I'd stopped playing soccer because I had injuries. And then I was doing CrossFit and I could do that for a while, but I just kept on picking up more and more injuries for a while. But I would just, I just kept on picking up more and more injuries shoulder injury, then elbow injury, chronic mid-back pain and then hip pain and then achilles pain. Uh, achilles and it, my, my, my body was just like slowly declining and this was around sort of age age 28, 29, so still a young, a young person.

Speaker 1:

I shouldn't have been going through those things. And I had tried regular chiropractic and you know those chiropractors were were amazing people and super smart, but it wasn't working for me. You know, I'd get a bit of temporary relief and then the pain would just come back in a different spot and it was just like managing injuries. Until I went to the biohackers meetup and saw Natalie and her former colleague Stuart giving a presentation and I thought, ah, this might be what I needed, like I couldn't go for the quick fix, I couldn't just go all right, I want to. You know, I want to one session, I want to be fixed.

Speaker 1:

I've realized I had to go on a long, multi-year journey and that's when I started at Spira Health in Putney and really had to change a lot of the things I did in my life. But over time I did get relief. I don't have those same injuries. I'm still doing CrossFit at 37, still PRing my snatch, age 37. So I'm, yeah, definitely a big advocate. But, yeah, what other kinds of stories do you have of clients changing in ways such as I did?

Speaker 3:

I mean, it's not only sort of this age group, it's also newborn, newborn babies, unbelievable. I mean, I do the smallest amount of work not much work with them, because they're obviously super young and their bodies haven't gone through much of this what I've spoken about. They're not even sitting upright. So bones going forward and twisting up probably haven't even happened yet. But there's another system that we deal with which is called the meningeal system.

Speaker 3:

For those listeners, anyone that's not familiar with that, meningitis is an inflammation of the meninges and the meninges is, like a think of it, like a skin that covers the brain and spinal cord. It's got three layers to it which are usually really loose, really really loose. But when your body goes through twists and bends and shifts it gets tightened up so it starts to affect the nervous system directly. So ABC deals with those. So we do structural care but we also do a very deep form of stretching on this meningeal tension.

Speaker 3:

So yes, from babies with sleeping issues, scoliosis, people with, and they get told by orthopedics nothing can be done other than surgery. And it's not true. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've got results in my own office of a change in scoliosis. It takes time. Scoliosis is a double compensation, so it's a twist on a twist. So it is complicated and it does take a long time, but it's 100% possible to help with that. I mean I've been in tears with good friends of mine because they haven't moved a shoulder for I don't know five years and then suddenly one appointment not saying one appointment and it's fixed. I'm just saying, along the line of the journey of fixing someone in a number of months or years, suddenly the shoulder just unlocks and they can just move their shoulder and then it's like it's a big moment.

Speaker 2:

Wow. So can you talk a bit more about the patient journey and what you're actually doing, because it sounds like when rich came to it, he realized that it's maybe going to take longer, but obviously, as you said, the results last longer, in many cases forever. So can you talk a little bit about the patient journey and what you're actually doing?

Speaker 3:

so typically you obviously assess the client, take a good medical history, orthopedic, neurological tests etc. Take some post, take some postural pictures, x-rays if needed, et cetera, and then once you've looked at them and go, okay, listen, I can help you. And there's quite a clear definition of what we can and can't help with ABC. The three things that we do not work with is malignancy, fracture and diabetic complications. Those three things we won't work with. But everything else, everything else post-surgery, lots of neurological conditions that people wouldn't touch with a barge pole if they were chiropractors. We are, we're there. So people come in and we assess them.

Speaker 3:

We usually start with a three-month program, so it's called stabilization. We are seeing them twice a week. I say this because just by research that we do to transform the body using this technique, the quickest way to see the results is to come in two per week. Three per week doesn't really accelerate it too much. One per week is too small because people tend to mess themselves up in inverted commas with how they sit, sleep, because people tend to mess themselves up in inverted commas with how they sit, sleep and stand, which I can get into a bit later on some tips on those things, but it's hard to fix a body and transform someone's spine if they keep going back into patterns and habits. Much like any kind of therapy, you're going to have Go back into old patterns and it slows you down. So typically it looks like that.

Speaker 3:

To start with, andy, pain relief. This is the frustrating part for a practitioner. I've had people with disc injuries crawl into my office they can't even walk through the door literally crawling through my office into the treatment room. I do one session and they walk out Frustratingly in their head they're like, wow, I'm almost there. I mean, I couldn't even walk when I went into this and it's a miracle. It does seem like a miracle.

Speaker 3:

The healing and complete healing of the tissue and inflammation and et cetera hasn't happened. But there's been so much neural tension released from the stretches we do and the biomechanics that we fix that the whole body just works completely differently very quickly. Mechanics that we fix that the whole body just works completely differently very quickly. But the challenge is educating someone in the fact that your body will revert back to old patterns very quickly. This is why the program is three months and I see you twice a week. So, frustratingly, we can get really good results really quickly. People breathe better. Clarity's there, energy, energy's up. You know pain is 70, 80 gone and yet you know the education is listen.

Speaker 1:

This is an investment and this is going to take some time yeah, I think one of the things that I found fascinating was how the spine is a root cause for a lot of people's injuries. You Someone might have a knee injury and they go and get loads of physical therapy and a massage around the quad and the calf but nothing helps it. And then you fix their spine and their knee pain goes away. You see a lot of that.

Speaker 3:

I see so much of it and once I did ABC for myself as in, learned about it. Abc for myself as in, learned about it. You know, cognitively I was like makes so much sense. It makes so much sense as to what the actual cause of that biomechanical problem in the knee is. So when someone comes in with a, you know and they go oh, I've had surgery, I've got cartilage issues, I've torn ACLs without even having trauma, just running a marathon or something, and I don't touch the knee. I mean, I do very minimal work on the limb at all and the knee straightens, the strength returns, they can walk better, they can sit better, they can exercise and I haven't even done any work on the knee. So, yes, the spine is the key.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, and then there's that idea that the spine can correct itself in all directions apart from backwards. Is that just like a hypothesis? Is there evidence for that? How did that come into being, that concept?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that is a good question. I mean I'm probably not in a position now to give you, but I could research that for you and give you some factual as to how they really picked that up, Because it was essentially three guys, three main guys in the 1970s. Jc Jatkiewicz was one of the main guys and just an absolute genius when it comes to biomechanics of the body. It can look at you from 20 meters away and tell you what's going on in your body. So, yeah, I'll find out about that and give you some more on that topic.

Speaker 2:

Can we move on to some of the things that are bad for our posture, or maybe some of the activities that most damage our posture, or some of the kind of shoes we're wearing way we're sleeping, the things you mentioned earlier.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So just to keep it super simple, the two things that you don't want to do with your spine is hyperflex it. So there's a natural, normal amount of flexion of the neck or the mid back or the lower back, and then there's a natural, a normal extension of the neck, extension of the thorax and extension of the lumbar spine, of the thorax and extension of the lumbar spine. And if you stay within those realms you'll be fine, as in. I'm specifically talking about exercises. So no hyperflexion, no hyperextension, just as a basic rule.

Speaker 3:

So when you're doing things like weights, you just want to keep your body as neutral as possible. I mean, I remember when I was working with personal trainers and when you're doing back or think that they'll specifically ask you to arch your back, and when you're doing back or think that they'll specifically ask you to arch your back, like when you're doing a pull down, to really activate those muscles, and small things like that can really not create an injury there and then. But you do that on a daily basis, three, four, five times a week, and the likelihood of you pushing one of those bones forward or putting it into extension is really high, and then the likelihood of your body twisting up is high, and then, of course, your injuries come and little niggles come thick and fast eventually.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I was going to say there's this idea that everyone should be doing yoga, but you have a lot of recovering yoga instructors in your practice, don't you?

Speaker 3:

So what was super interesting about that is because I actually really enjoy yoga, I knew it wasn't good for my body personally, and so what we did is we got together with about 20 yogis, really experienced yogis. Just had some conversations with them and a lot of them were saying, I mean, they've been doing some of them yoga for 20 plus years and they were saying it's interesting how their bodies are no longer able to do the poses as they've got further along in their careers. And I'm like, wow, I mean you'd think that you'd keep that what's the word elasticity? And keep that stretching of the muscles because you're doing it so often. So it would just be, the flexibility would be there, but slowly but surely they were losing it. Their flexibility would be there, but slowly but surely they were losing it. Um, so we worked with them and we came up with a yoga flow, um, spine friendly yoga flow I actually have it on my, my website which isn't any hyper extension or hyper flexion, but it does involve twisting, because you can do things that twist, you can latch, reflex, you know you can do a safe amount of flexion and extension.

Speaker 3:

I enjoy the breath work, the stress management of yoga, so that's a pretty safe way to do yoga. There is ways that you can leave out certain poses. So if you are a yoga fanatic, if you're in your session with yoga, I would just look at reducing the amount of flexion and extension that you do, forcing your body and also in certain poses that you're doing one side versus the other. Sometimes it can get quite competitive and you with yourself even, and you want to push that stretch. I wouldn't push your body into a stretch because when you are stuck in one of those twists or those configurations I speak about, if you are going to stretch out what the body is actually doing to stabilize you, you could really destabilize yourself and cause some big problems yeah, I think yoga is like the idea of having some flexibility is good.

Speaker 1:

Taken to the extreme becomes unhelpful. The same with like vegetables are good for you, so let's only eat vegetables and you get. You know all the complications that come with with veganism. And the same with, yeah, probably strength training or running marathon runners who just have, you know, emaciated and things like that. Like we do, we do need balance and it's sad to see that when people just think they're doing something good for themselves, like yoga, and they're actually harming themselves when they take it to the extreme.

Speaker 3:

Two things in my office. The main injuries come well, actually three. Let me talk about three. One, yoga. So people post yoga. Oh, I've been doing yoga for six weeks and I picked up this or that. Two is the deadlift in the gym. So the deadlift in the gym is a great exercise. I mean, let's face it, it really activates your posterior chain and it's wonderful. But the likelihood of you pushing or dragging a vertebra forward, doing that is very high. So I usually tell my clients to stay away from deadlifts if they can. And what's the third thing?

Speaker 1:

How do you feel about hex bar dead deadlifts? I've heard they are better yeah, look there's.

Speaker 3:

There's some, some different techniques. I was going to say that the technique is important, but also what's worth saying is it depends on the body. So I might do that deadlift and my body probably handles it quite well, but somebody else who's just twisted or just a little weak in that certain spot, it'll create an issue over time you were going to talk about sleeping, natalie, and I was looking forward to that yes, so that was actually the third.

Speaker 3:

The third thing that I see in the office that creates the most injuries or the people come in with is sleeping on a memory foam mattress memory foam and it's a big one. It's a big one because most people have invested a lot of money in it and it's so well marked that you think you're investing in your health. But actually I cannot fix a body that sleeps on a memory foam mattress. Why is that so the the quality and the properties of the memory foam? I mean, have you slept on?

Speaker 2:

I used to have one. Yeah, I've slept on a half and half, I think, so it's the spring. And then, yeah, exactly yeah, I think I used to sleep on one of those.

Speaker 3:

Well, the material itself. When you lie on it, you actually think it's quite firm and you're like, well, this is great, but it does end up molding sort of into your body. So let's think about somebody now that's got these collapsed vertebrae, that I speak about these anterior vertebrae, and then their body's twisted up and then you get into bed and all the bed does is mold into what your configuration is. So every night when you go to sleep, it's not like the next day you'll wake up and potentially be in danger, but over time you're going to get more and more and more tightly twisted up than you would if you were sleeping on a firm mattress. Because we recommend firm. There's another type of foam at the moment that's the best that we can recommend called latex. It's latex foam essentially.

Speaker 1:

A lot of it can be organic and hyper hyper allergenic, because memory foam can get really hot and actually it's quite toxic yeah, yeah, the toxicity of mattresses is a raging topic in all the sort of health biohacking facebook groups I go into, so can you say more about that toxicity?

Speaker 3:

I haven't actually looked into most of it, it's only just the materials. Um, actually I think it was something that tim had posted that I read about where there was five or six different points that he put together, just saying that this is the most toxic substance in the world. Do not sleep on it yeah, I think yeah.

Speaker 1:

They use all sorts of chemicals, formaldehyde, all sorts of things like like a new car smell. A new car smell gives me a headache. They're using the same kind of things in mattresses to preserve them, and then we're just breathing them in for eight hours every day, pretty much.

Speaker 2:

And what about pillows as well?

Speaker 3:

So that's what I was going to say. What's interesting is memory foam pillows, memory foam in shoes. So sketches have insoles that are memory foam inside the shoe. Same thing, same concept, a little different or a little tricky maybe for people to envision. But if you imagine that your body now has these bones that are stuck forward so you collapse, you can notice this because you've got rounded shoulders, your head's forward, your back probably has too much curve in it, et cetera. And when you look in the mirror and you're brushing your teeth, you'll see that you're not symmetric. You're like oh, this collarbone's a bit lower, my shoulder's a bit higher on this side, or I feel a bit twisted.

Speaker 3:

So when you put shoes on that are now memory foam and these twists and bends and compensations I talk about happen everywhere. They happen in the cranial bones, they happen in the jaw, they happen in the fingers, they happen right down into your arches, your toes and your feet, so your whole body can be compensated up. Now, when you put these shoes on really soft just like the sleeping example that I gave, where you've got a twist on one side, the shoes they don't stabilize your body. So when you put the shoe on, it's a micro challenge for your body to actually stabilize itself. So I'm exaggerating it here. But your body will be moving around to try and find a stable spot all the time in the shoes. The likelihood of you pushing a bone further forward when your body's got to look for a stable place is higher, so shoes can really impact us over time as well yeah, shoes is definitely something I want to come on to.

Speaker 1:

But on that concept, uh, just going back to sleep, um sleep posture, some people, people, often ask me how should I sleep? You know, side back front. What do you have to say about that?

Speaker 3:

well, I mean, there's evidence, especially when I was pregnant. You know, sleep on your left side, your stomach, and I think is it around digestion as well Digestion and circulation.

Speaker 1:

For the left side, yeah.

Speaker 3:

But definitely side sleeping would be number one for me. Back sleeping not an issue. It's just that your pillow height has to change between side sleeping and back sleeping Because, of course, side sleeping you're going to need a lot higher than you are when you lie on your back, because if you lie on your back with a high pillow you're going to push your head forward all night and that's not going to help stomach.

Speaker 1:

Sleeping is please please don't just stop. Just stop doing what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

I always think any people whose stomachs leave just passed out. I don't think anyone could actually consciously get into that position.

Speaker 3:

What's super interesting at work is that again, working with people in time and correcting their configurations and giving them the right pillow hide and they change their mattress. They don't want to sleep on their stomachs anymore, it doesn't feel right for them and it all changes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you guys do a great sit-sleep-stand workshop where you train your clients to sleep. And yeah, on the mattress, I have the abc mattress that you can buy from their website. It's super firm, non-toxic. But before I could get that, uh, you and stewart had me sleeping on the floor on a couple of mat, on yoga mats and with rolled up towels, and so so why do you do that? Just mean, yeah, exactly, it's like you know.

Speaker 3:

See, if you can do this, but I think it very much depends on the results we get. So if people there's always, your body's always giving you clues, always, always, always, always. If you know people go, I get out of my car and I can hardly walk. I'm like, well, your car seat clearly didn't do you any favors, let's see what we can do for your car seat. Same thing with your, you know. Your your sleeping.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I wake up, or five in the morning and I've got to get up because I'm in too much pain. I'm like, well, let's take a look at your mattress and your pillow. We do, and that all changes. So putting people on the floor isn't the best experience for them, as you know, because you can have that pressure point of the shoulder or the hip or whatever on the floor. But usually the pain that they come in with is so much better if they sleep on the floor and they get the pillow height moderately right and they'll say oh, you know what? I didn't have the best night's sleep because I was sleeping on the floor and was really firm, but I have to say that my back feels so much better. Or my shoulder, yes, actually I woke up and it wasn't as tight and can we cover off the pillow height question.

Speaker 2:

What is? What are we talking about there?

Speaker 3:

so there's one thing that I want to say, which is there isn't one pillow that fits all, and if anybody's saying, buy this pillow because you know it's every, it'll work for everyone it's, it's bullshit. Because our bodies are different like it's unbelievable how many different configurations I've seen of how twisted up and shapes and sizes from a mechanical point of view. So you cannot expect pillow height to be the same with anybody.

Speaker 1:

What we use is a height adjustable pillow, so it has got layers of foam and when I'm working on someone's body and seeing them twice a week and they're going through transformation, their pillow height probably changes every two or three weeks yeah, and it's fascinating when you do that workshop and you see people, when they get the right sleep height, their eyes go from there, you know, because you're in a kind of bright room, you're in your office and people have their eyes open. Then when they find the exact right height that I just like can't stay open. People just become so relaxed.

Speaker 3:

They're just like falling asleep in a crowded crowd of people it's, it's, it's magic, it's andy, it's like it's because, of course, when I was studying and learning all of this, this is what I had to learn.

Speaker 3:

You know, this is what I, what I had to study. So what Rich said, where people are, some tiny little person like smaller than the three of us, is on a stack of a height of pillow about this big. So she's lying on her side but her head is almost like because people say, oh, I should just have a pillow that's from my neck to my shoulder and that's how really high my pillow should be, and it's untrue because it depends so much on the meningeal tension which I've spoken about and the mechanics. So she had this massive pillow height but she was so relaxed and once you do reach a point that your pillow height is good, because we go through all these different layers, your eyes just close and it's really quite hard for her to even open her eyes and you can see her breath is the biggest that she's got and also any aches or pains that she's had are not there.

Speaker 2:

I really, really want to do the exercise now. I can't tell you how much I do, especially as I'm about to go to bed. Do you ever get any people who are just kind of curious about this stuff I mean, say, like me, I mean I don't think I've got perfect posture but it's not causing me any problems that I'm aware of. But I am curious about going to the stuff and finding out more about how better to treat my body. Basically, do you ever get any people like that coming to you?

Speaker 3:

it's, it's on the minimum, so it's the the smaller sort of numbers. It is really one of my ideal clients, though for myself, because it's somebody who's not in pain but just looking to reach their highest potential. So we we basically with pain, posture and performance issues, and and what is what is so lovely about it is when you, when you don't have pain, and we adjusting you and correcting you, then you noticing how much better your body functions, even though you're at a pretty good level already. So things like, like Rich said, you you're reaching, you know, personal best better, your body functions, even though you're at a pretty good level already. So, things like Rich said, you're reaching personal bests with things like a 10K or your chest press, and so it's good to see in energy levels and even focus and concentration at work, clarity, stuff like that, creativity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and going back to that idea of sort of stabilization as well, I think that's a really interesting concept as well, the idea that you know, when we go into a soft mattress or a soft shoe or even a soft couch, like we don't actually relax. We initially feel relaxed, but then actually it's stressing our body. Can you say more about that?

Speaker 3:

That's so interesting because when you're fixing probably six weeks, maybe even less, four to six weeks in, when people's body are getting fixed, they're like I don't even I don't feel I get pain on my couch now and I'm like she's like yeah, I didn't have that before and I'm like your body was so screwed up before that when you got on the couch it didn't make any difference. But now that we fixed you up sitting on something bad, your body's going. This is not working for me at all. So it's so true, the subtlety of the change in things like breathing rates or even breathing efficiency. You don't even know that's happening on the couch.

Speaker 3:

But I mean, think about an airplane flight. If you're traveling economy and you're on an airplane flight, you do. You know, four to six hours, maybe even a long haul like South Africa, 11 hours Nobody gets off the plane feeling great, nobody gets off the plane, and that's just the shape of the actual chair. So a tip there is to actually put the pillow that they give you, which is really small and quite feeble put it under your butt, cheeks so that your hips are higher than your knees when you're sitting. That is that. Is that really make a huge difference to your spine posture, function, physiology on the other end yeah, and you sell those seat wedges, don't you?

Speaker 1:

for for office chairs, for cars and everything. So, so why is it important to have our hips above our knees when seated, when seated.

Speaker 3:

It's uh, basically it's like a high heel for your pelvis. So a certain, a certain heel for men and women is actually quite beneficial for our posture because it pops. It pops us up. So we, you know, for shoes we have these tiny little heel chips that we put, especially in barefoot shoes, the back of the shoe, to create a lift Now in the pelvis. When the hips are higher than the knees, you tilt the pelvis in the direction that props up the spine from the bottom, so you're using less effort to just sit. And then, of course, if you're more upright, you're using less effort to just sit. And then, of course, if you're more upright, you're breathing better because your ribs can move and you've got more space for your heart and lungs. So sitting at a desk all day with hips high and the knees is one of the best things you could do, and obviously the position of your, your computer, it's a good, important one as well and then one of the best and worst kind of shoes is so, birkenstocks, crocs, you know so.

Speaker 3:

I see children in crocs and I you know part of me wants to stop all the parents on the street and just say please don't do this to your child child abuse it's just, you know, and it's so well marketed again, and so yeah, whatever, and there's all these marketing gimmicks, but again, the shape of the shoe it forces your body to look for stabilization all the time, which then increases the chance of you pushing a vertebra forward. So they're just learning how to walk, some of these kids, or even run properly, so it changes the whole biomechanics of their bodies. So Crocs, birkenstocks, as I said, sketches, anything with memory foam soles.

Speaker 3:

A heel is actually not bad for women. You know, if you're tall enough, you can have sort of a two-inch, three-inch heel and be okay. If you're tall, one, one and a half inch to someone who's me is not so tall important. And also, you know people say, well, I tried barefoot shoes but I was in so much pain and it's like, well, you know, if your body is really twisted up, you're not going to do well with spending eight hours and commuting in your barefoot shoe. You've got to build up to that and also, obviously, get some. Get some treatment first.

Speaker 2:

It's unfortunate that you said Birkenstocks and Crocs, because I'd say they were both the shoes of the summer in the UK. I think that's what I saw most. So any brands of barefoot shoe you would mention, for those of you who don't know what a barefoot shoe is, yes, it's a minimal shoe.

Speaker 3:

It doesn't have and should not have, but we would like it not to have an arch support. Or if you actually look at your shoe really closely, you look at the heel part of the shoe, you'll notice that there's almost like a trough. So I say to people you know Birkenstock's amazing for your feet. Your feet obviously feel great in there because it's supporting the arch. It's got a little space for your heel, it's got a space for your toes, so your feet are fantastic. But the impact that that has on your structure all the way above is not something you want to do. Right from your breath again, your efficiency of your breath and then your posture, so structurally changing you over time.

Speaker 3:

So, five are barefoot. We enjoy those shoes. We enjoy Groundies. Groundies is a German brand. I'm using some Feel Grounds, which is UK-based, and there's so many more coming out. So every time I look at a barefoot shoe, I'm really just going for flat, flexible and wide and no support on the arch and no negative heel or trough happening in the shoe.

Speaker 1:

Okay, great advice. Support on the arch and no negative heel or trough happening in the shoe. Okay, great advice, all right. Well, um, yeah, we've covered the, the sleep, the sleeping, the standing. That's, that's the one thing. Yeah, I want to ask about standing standing. How do we stand? Should we stand?

Speaker 3:

well, that's you know. What I said in the beginning is that people are like, how should I be, what should my posture look like? And they ask me and I go well, it's, it's not something conscious, it should be unconscious and it should be there. So you know, what I do is restore these curves. And people then say also something like well, should I have a standing desk?

Speaker 3:

Now, a standing desk is great, but you'll notice that a certain number of time into your meeting or whatever you're doing, you'll start fidgeting. So, either leaning on one leg or crossing one over, or what I do is I end up opening my legs quite wide so that I can like leaning into. So as soon as you notice yourself compensating, those are compensations. Sit, just sit, just change. It's the change between sitting and standing that your body wants. It's not so much, you know. Oh my God, I sit for eight days, eight hours. It's a problem. I'm going to stand for eight hours. It's not that, it's the movement that your body wants. So we just encourage people, you know, get. So we just encourage people, you know, get up, use the toilet, get a drink, get a coffee, get a tea, come back, and then you know, change, standing sitting. Standing sitting but ideally I mean a mechanical, biomechanical position of standing is that your feet are directly under your hips. Your feet are turned out at about 10 degrees on either side.

Speaker 1:

Arms are relaxed by your side and you're looking straight ahead. Yeah, that's interesting. You say that that there is no perfect posture, because I was listening to this football podcast and they're always like, oh, phil foden, he has the perfect posture, but I don't think he does. I think he's got slightly like lordotic spine. Um, and then also on the topic of posture, I often get instagram adverts for like, this kind of like almost looks like a bra, but for men and women that brings your shoulders back.

Speaker 2:

What do you think about those, those kind of yeah, do you want me to say that I've got one, or should I just leave that off this episode?

Speaker 3:

well, I mean, I always say to people what are your goals? You know, if your goal is to be upright for an evening because you've got an event, you know, wear the back brace. But if your goal is to be pain-free evening, because you've got an event, wear the back brace. But if your goal is to be pain-free, muscle tension-free and be upright, then look for another way. I mean, if you think about wearing a cast on your arm for six weeks because you broke a bone, when you take that cast off because you haven't moved those muscles, you've atrophied. So if someone's wearing a brace for X amount of time in a day, the muscles aren't being activated at all some of them and there'll be such an imbalance there as well. So it can create such a knock-on effect of wearing those braces. If that's what you're looking for to change your posture I don't promote those at all you touched on flying and I'm just conscious.

Speaker 2:

in the age of digital nomads and people working from loads of different environments, could you give kind of practical tips for people who are maybe sitting on four or five different chairs a week, sleeping maybe in a couple of beds in a week? What are the kind of things you can take with you? Or practical tips like hips above knees?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so hips above knees. So for me, if I can't travel with my wedge, um with me, which just you know, looks like this. I've actually got it on this you'll have to describe this for the listeners rich it's like a triangular cushion.

Speaker 1:

It's pretty tough, um, it's. It's a wedge shape. That's why it's called a wedge, um, and it covers your chair, maybe half half the chair, three quarters of a chair so it doesn't go on. Most, most chairs. I have them in my car. I thought I'm sitting on one right now, actually, uh, in my office. So bonus points for me bonus points for you.

Speaker 3:

So if you can't do that, obviously I use you know, if I go to a theater or if I'm, like you say, working in a space where I know the chair is rubbish, I will roll up my scarf or my jacket and I'll stick it under my butt cheeks so that my hips are higher than my knees. Same thing in a taxi or something. I'll be like no, I can't sit like this. I'll roll something up, stick it under my bum. So that would be the one way that I would get around a chair that isn't so good. And also, depending on what's going on on your spine, you can sit to the edge of the chair so that you know if it's a terrible, terrible chair. I find that a lot of bar stools are a problem. You know where there's no back. So when you're sitting for a long time and you have no support, it's not ideal.

Speaker 3:

You know, people will say to me when I'm working, should I sit on an exercise ball? And I'm like no, absolutely not. I mean, you can do it for a period of time if you want to 20 minutes or something like that, but it's not something to sit on for eight hours.

Speaker 1:

Why is that?

Speaker 3:

You know you're not giving your body a chance to be as supportive. I mean, you're not stable, so the whole time it's obviously challenged, which is what you want to do when you want to challenge those muscles. But I wouldn't do that for eight hours. Your spine, if you're going to sit and focus for a while, you'll need some support there. So the position of your hips higher than your knees balances your pelvis, props up your spine without effort. So your muscles are not working as hard. What else you said?

Speaker 3:

So in hotel rooms, if the bed, now you'll know if the bed is a problem for your body because you won't feel good in bed. I mean, I always remember going to my first night away of being a new mom and I was like I'm away from my baby, I'm gonna sleep so well, I'm gonna have no interruptions. And I get in this hotel room and I'm lying in the bed and I'm like crap, it was my. I just started to get like growing pains. My legs were sore, I didn't know what to do. I kept tossing and turning, I slept on the floor, froze my ass off and I still slept on the floor and I didn't get any sleep. But yes, so beds, you will know if the bed is not good for you. If you can't fall asleep, you're tossing and turning and you've got any sort of tension or aches or pains, then sleep on the floor.

Speaker 3:

Pillar height I'll use towels, so bath towels, something in the bathroom. And if the pillow isn't doing what I want it to do, and the three things I would look at, one lying on my side is the position of where my upper shoulder is. So if your upper shoulder the one you're lying on, the opposite one, if that's falling forward and your hand is going underneath your chin to prop up your head when you sleep, the pillow is way too low. So you want to look for this shoulder, the top shoulder, to be in a neutral position. If it's too far back when you're lying on your pillow and you almost want to fall onto your back, the pillow is usually too high.

Speaker 3:

So those are kind of just some guidelines for that. And so use a towel from the bathroom and just create these levels and just go up and down really slowly and your body can ascertain a change of different pillow heights to the height of a piece of a paper. So when I say to people, you know, go up and pillow height. I'm not saying go home and add a whole pillow or, you know, go down and take away a pillow. I'm saying go home and put a tea towel underneath your pillow and see if that helps you sleep better.

Speaker 1:

Awesome.

Speaker 2:

And just so Rich doesn't have to ask the question about breath, which he does all the time. Obviously, Rich brings everything back to the breath. You mentioned breath earlier.

Speaker 3:

Can you talk about the role that breath has in the body? In the work you do so, we use it as a observational tool. It's probably one of our most powerful observational tools when we are standing, because that's how we do most of our treatments. We don't have to, but standing is best. We're looking at the movement of the chest, the ribs, the first rib, which is actually no one really knows this, but the first rib is actually under your collarbone and it goes around and actually connects to the back of your neck. So people don't know that, but this goes right around, it connects to the back of your neck. So we're looking at the position of the first rib, the second rib and then all the ribs that attach underneath that in your chest bone, to see how each side is moving and obviously, how much they're moving. The ribs move like bucket handles. So if we don't see that movement being symmetrical or as open, as free, as long as it could be, there's an issue.

Speaker 3:

And every mechanical adjustment that we do we then compare. So we're like, okay, that's a better breath, oh, that's the worst. Okay, let me try something. Compare. So we're like, okay, that's a better breath, oh, that's the worst. Okay, let me you know, let me try something else. So the breath is an observational tool and it's probably one of the first things Rich, I don't know if you can vouch for this, but it's probably one of the first, most home or hard hitting results that you notice about ABC is when you have that first maneuver and you have a few things done, of how much easier, more efficient, lighter, bigger, longer your breath is yeah, absolutely, it's a.

Speaker 1:

It's a really interesting diagnostic tool. You know, your body is struggling if it can't take a deep breath and going back to self. Being the back of an uber or something you know, in a little prius, because I find that position. I get really anxious in ubers because my knees are so high and well, normally like, yeah, yeah, my knees are high, so I often hit, sit to the side and and do some breath work to to calm myself down there. But, um, yeah, the, the breath, what you do or the you is about, is this person breathing maximally? Is there something restricting their breath? And it's a really good telltale sign. So, yeah, is there anything else you want to share, natalie? Anything else you think we haven't covered?

Speaker 3:

I just think that it's important that people know that you can change the shape of your spine. It's fascinating how many people just don't think that you can. There's a lot of young people, particularly that are coming in, that are kyphotic, so that means they've got that bump on the back of their neck or they're really hunched over with their shoulders because technology has played a bigger role in their lives than, say, for us, and people just don't think that that can be changed. And so really, it's just to say that it's possible to transform your spine.

Speaker 2:

So there's hope. Yeah, that's a great message to leave us with. Thanks for that. And where do we find you, Natalie?

Speaker 3:

So SpiroHealth is in London, in Putney, on the high street there, and we have a great website, as I said, with different resources on it. We're on Instagram as well at SpiroHealth. That's my two main channels. Yeah, we do these sit-sleep-standing sessions actually, and we do them virtually as well, so you can join from around the world. Obviously, the time difference might be an issue, but we do offer it online and virtually too, which could be quite beneficial for any questions, and you get to see us demonstrating on people's bodies.

Speaker 1:

And for people not local to London, for people in California. I see Jane Baxley at White Oak Chiropractic in Vacaville and she's amazing, just like Natalie. And there is a website isn't there, is it ABC? Where there's like a map for people around the world who want to find local practitioners so it's the abc provider map for me.

Speaker 3:

I'm affiliated to abce, which is abc europe. I know there's abc australia in australia as well, abc international, so just type it in. There's a. There's a great educational website called meningialreleasecom, so meningialreleasecom. You can put that in the notes, I'll send it to you yeah, great, all right.

Speaker 1:

Thank you very much, natalie.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks so much for giving me so much time. Thanks rich, much appreciated. Thanks so much.

Speaker 1:

In conclusion no, we're not going to do. In conclusion I really hate it when people finish a whatever a book by saying what you should have.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as if you're not smart enough to have picked up what you want to pick up? Yeah, and also, I think the conclusion is different from for everyone, isn't it someone? Might already do all of that, and then they'll be like, oh, that's good, I'm doing everything right and I do abc and my spine's perfect and I sleep perfectly, I stand perfectly. But I think a lot of people would have taken some good nuggets of wisdom from an incredibly intelligent lady.

Speaker 1:

So thanks very much to natalie yes, and whilst we spoke all about the positives of abc which I mean they are pretty much all positives I think it's also important because we we are. We are trying to make this show about being balanced and not just being overly salesy and hypey, and hopefully, hopefully that episode wasn't too salesy and hypey. But no treatment works for everyone. You know this. This treatment really helped my back, it helped my shoulder, but it hasn't hasn't helped my hip. My hip, as I've mentioned, has lost labrum. It, this treatment has limitations. It can't regrow labrum and cartilage, like maybe stem cells can. So it's possible that people will try abc and they won't get as phenomenal benefits as I did and they'll need something else. But I think it's definitely worth the try. It's pretty minimally invasive. It doesn't require flying to mexico and uh, having being put under general anesthetic and having stem cells.

Speaker 2:

It's certainly a lot cheaper than that, as well, I was disappointed to hear that birkenstocks and Crocs are no good for your feet, because I feel like they've both had a real resurgence over the summer. Really Well, I don't own either.

Speaker 1:

I'm not disappointed. I'm glad they're very ugly and they need to go.

Speaker 2:

Chefs around the world will be devastated by the Crocs one yeah, big time. No, very, very interesting stuff. Practical tips crocs one yeah, big time. Um, no, very, very interesting stuff. Practical tips um. Go find natalie on instagram and check out those videos on abc. They sound really good as a minimum. Or maybe go and see her at spyro in putney big time.

Speaker 1:

All right, thank you andy, thank you natalie, and thank you listener you find us. You find us find us on instagram at the breath geek, at andy sam and at the breath geekcom, and on all good podcast hosting sites. Brilliant, well done. Did I get the voiceover gig nailed?

Speaker 2:

it speak to you next time, bye thanks for listening bye.