Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness

What Does It Really Mean to Be Authentic? With Alex Manzi

• Richard & Andy • Episode 44

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Kick off your journey to authenticity and personal growth with insights from our guest, Alex Manzi, a dynamic creator and coach with roots in the music industry and a stint at BBC Radio 1Xtra. Alex shares his experiences coaching high-profile clients and offers strategies for maintaining a healthy relationship with social media, a crucial element in our ever-connected world. We untangle the regional differences in TikTok's algorithm and discuss how these variations influence user behavior, setting the stage for a broader conversation on mindful social media use.

Reflective tales from both hosts take us through personal transformations sparked by moments of profound unhappiness, despite seemingly successful lives. We explore the pivotal role of authenticity in finding true fulfillment, sharing how books, meditation, and launching a self-development podcast for the UK audience were instrumental in our paths. The episode doesn't shy away from vulnerability; instead, it examines overcoming fears of judgment and the power of sharing personal stories to foster genuine connections.

Finally, we tackle the challenge of balancing growth with authenticity in a world where vulnerability can be commodified. You'll hear about the importance of intentional social media usage, avoiding the trap of endless scrolling, and the broader implications of digital distractions on our attention spans. We wrap up by emphasizing the need for self-reflection and rest, using personal anecdotes and strategies to illustrate how prioritizing well-being can lead to a more balanced, fulfilling life. Tune in to gain valuable insights and practical advice on navigating the complexities of personal and professional growth.

About the guest:
Alex Manzi is a Creator and Coach who works with Creatives and Entrepreneurs to help them optimise their mindset so that they can bring their dream projects to life. Alex is also the host of 'In The Moment with Alex Manzi' which is one of the most downloaded self-development podcasts in the UK as well as the author of the book 'The Search For Clarity' which he released in 2020.

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Book: ‘The Search For Clarity’ http://thedreamersdisease.co.uk/clarity
Web: thedreamersdisease.co.uk

HOSTS:
Richard Blake
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Andy Esam
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Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
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Speaker 1:

Andy, are you being authentic or are you doing performative vulnerability at me?

Speaker 2:

Oh God, I suppose it's a better question than the are you burnt out? Question. I think I'm being more and more authentic. I think at the start, when we started doing this project, I thought I was like, you know, I was really trying to make an effort and be like something. I'm not really, but now I feel like I'm very much more authentic, you know.

Speaker 1:

You, I'm always authentic. I'm, I'm real, I'm the real deal. 100 all day long.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's lucky, because our guest, uh, alex manzi is very authentic and that's one of his um key themes and he I like the way he said he was a creator coach or coach creator.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a nice little combo there yeah, so alex is a coach, but he is also very much involved in the music industry as a as a creator. He's done a lot with um, was it bbc radio?

Speaker 2:

one extra was that the, the show yeah, radio one extra five years yeah, so he worked there for a while and so he's got his um, his fingers in the pies of many people in the music industry and he works with a lot of, as you're here, high profile and and highly successful people and, yeah, he's managed to help these people with his, his coaching philosophy and enjoyed his take on social media, because he's a bit of a social media expert and, um, it was really nice to hear from him how he engages it with it in a healthy way and how, when he noticed he wasn't, for example, on tiktok, he had to get rid of it completely because he thinks the entire app is designed to make you scroll and, uh, you know, keep your attention focused on silly videos, which I'm sure it is. But I don't have it. No, I don't have it ahead, don't even have to delete it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, I did hear that the tiktok algorithm is different in china than it is in the west. In china they reward people who are like helping old ladies across the streets or you know want to be astronauts or brain surgeons, whereas in america they reward people for like getting a football to the crotch. So they're really like just make, yeah, rewarding stupid behavior, whereas in china they're rewarding actually pro-social things quite like a mix of the two, if I'm being completely honest an astronaut getting a ball in the crotch an old person being helped across the road and a ball hits them in the crotch.

Speaker 1:

Okay, fine that could be good. Um, yeah. So alex is a coach. We're going to learn a lot about his uh, his approach to authenticity, his approach to coaching, his approach to social media. And he's also a podcaster. He's had a pretty successful podcast, number three, in the uh, the health charts, at one point. So you'll hear what you'll. You'll be in the presence of someone who actually knows what they're doing.

Speaker 2:

Podcast yeah, so enjoy that. Yeah, well, but before we dive into the guests, I just wondered if you've been working on anything you might want to advertise rich. I've just got this sort of oh, it's funny, you asked that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so I and joseph and you one of our previous podcast guests have created a 12-week program and it's going to be available from January next year and it's going to be called Momentum and it's going to the foundation is really breathwork.

Speaker 1:

But it's going to be kind of like an intro to spirituality, an intro to nutrition, an intro to exercise and biohacking. You know, bridita, joseph's a well-known biohacker, the founder of runga, and this 12-week program, yeah, is really going to kickstart your journey into those types of things. If you, you know you're wondering about your nutrition, you want to lose weight, you want to find purpose, you want to find meaning, you want to know how to do breath work. And then this is going to feed into this membership we have, where we'll be doing live breathwork sessions every month. There's going to be live men's work and women's work and, yeah, it's going to be also having live momentum live. We're going to be going into live events, probably in Austin Texas. In Austin Texas. That will be about, yeah, like a pilgrimage. The culmination of your 12-week program can be this live, in-person with other people who you have been growing and developing with.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, sounds great. I'm sure we'll link the details, but for now let's hear from Alex, please.

Speaker 1:

Yes, hey, everyone. Are you ready to kickstart your health journey and experience true transformation? Let me introduce you to a brand new program I'm thrilled to be a part of, called Momentum. Created in collaboration with Ranga, momentum is a 12-week immersive coaching program designed to guide you through every aspect of health transformation, whether it's physical, emotional or spiritual. Think of it as the foundation you need to build a life of limitless energy, resilience and personal power.

Speaker 1:

Now you might be wondering what sets Momentum apart. Well, the core of this program is Breathwork. Rooted in the clinical trial I conducted for my PhD, this trial showed Breathwork's incredible ability to reduce anxiety with a large effect size and statistical significance, making it a true game changer in mental health. With Momentum, you get the best of both worlds Live monthly Breathwork ceremonies that allow you to experience these benefits firsthand, and a full library of recorded sessions. This means you can learn at your own pace, on your own schedule, from anywhere around the world. Plus, to keep you supported and inspired, we're including live support calls with our elite team. Momentum is about making you the best version of yourself in just 90 days, and runga's expert coaching is designed to help you achieve exactly that. To get started, visit rungaco and join us in building the foundation for a healthier, more fulfilled you. The world is moving faster than ever. Don't wait to bring your inner world up to speed. Join today by going to rungleco.

Speaker 2:

Forward, slash momentum like to start off with a bit of your backstory, if I may, so. Can you tell us how you became to be a creator and a coach in east london?

Speaker 3:

um, so yeah, like. So the short version is 11 years ago I had essentially a mental health breakdown. I was 25. I'd realized that I'd been miserable for the previous probably seven, eight years of my life, even though I had a lot of the kind of you know, the tick box things of you know. I was working in advertising, I had a good job, I was saving up to buy my own place, I was in a relationship, but, you know, going on nice holidays, all of the kind of tick box stuff. I just felt, you know, miserable inside.

Speaker 3:

And 11 years ago I had this sort of moment where I admitted for the first time out loud but also to myself, that I just wasn't, wasn't happy, and that, um, kind of set me off on the path of like, well, what, what does happy mean if I've got all these things? Like, what does that? Even what does being happy mean if, if I've got all the things that is supposed to make you happy and I don't feel happy, what, what's, what's the answer, kind of thing. And it just that opened the door really for my own sort of journey of personal growth and I got into a lot of different things. I, you know, I started looking around, I tried a bit of therapy and it didn't really feel like it was clicking for me. So I started to look at alternative options and the only thing back then you know, we're talking like 2013, something like that, back end of 2013, I was like what do I do? So I was like, well, the only thing I could think of was, you know, pick up a book and start to read about this stuff. So I started to research some books and I read the sort of classics you know, like power of now, ego is the enemy. Um, chimp paradox, ego, the Ego the Enemy might have been later, to be fair, but Chimp Paradox Books like that, they were kind of like in and around that time, like fairly well-known, and I just started to like see a different something about life.

Speaker 3:

And then, like, my next step was like, okay, cool, well, how can I actually apply this stuff to my life? So I started to make changes to my lifestyle, to my habits. To, you know, I stopped stuff to my life. So I started to make changes to my lifestyle, to my habits. To, you know, I stopped eating so much junk food, I stopped drinking fizzy drinks, I stopped drinking so much alcohol. Um, I started meditating, I started exercising regularly, I started taking my health more serious, um, I started to um, what was it? There was something else that I feel like I'm not mentioning. I mentioned meditation just started to like improve.

Speaker 3:

Like you know, I started a gratitude journal, um, like just positive habits, and then, essentially, over time, the more I read and the more I applied, the more I started to see that my life was starting to unfold and it started to change and I started to feel more positive. I started to feel more sort of excited about the future, rather than having this constant like dread and worry and sort of miserable gray cloud hanging over my head. And people that I was working with at the time started to notice. So I'd since left my advertising job, um, and I was working then at BBC Radio One Extra as the social media producer, um, where I worked for five years, and people around me started to notice like, oh, like they'd say things like, oh, you're always so positive, like how do you stay so calm? And I was just I'd be thinking like you can't be talking about me, but they were obviously noticing it and I was, you know, inside I was starting to feel different, but I didn't still quite believe it until other people were sort of reflecting it back to me.

Speaker 3:

So then I got really curious about you know, what was going on, and I started listening around 2014-15 I think to some podcasts. So some of the podcasts I was listening to was like School of Greatness by Lewis Howe, tim Ferriss's podcast and maybe not necessarily in this order, but I was listening to a lot of Gary Vee Oprah's podcast back then and I was just hearing all of these really amazing stories of people who had gone through something negative in their life be it, you know, what I'd been through like a mental health breakdown or it'd been like abuse or it'd been like a huge accident in their life and they'd overcome that and actually gone on to create something really incredible. And I was really inspired by a lot of these stories and I wanted to kind of create something of my own, and that's essentially what inspired me to start my podcast back in 20, I think. Back now, end of 2016, early 2017, is when I put the first episodes out and the idea was well, I'm listening to all these amazing podcasts out there, but a lot of the guests that I'm listening to American and nothing against Americans right, but you know they don't sound like me. They don't. They haven't grown up like me. They don't get the things that I get. They're not into the music I'm into. They don't get you know. It just felt a little bit distant still. So I started to look around. Okay, like what podcast is out there that's UK based, that is talking about this sort of more self-development, mental health, well-being conversation? And at the time I couldn't find one. That like there was some very successful UK podcast, but they were more like guys and girls chat shows, you know, like mates sort of you know shooting the shit and having a bit of banter and sort of gossipy kind of you know stuff. And I was like, well, I can't find one, so I'm just going to start one. I know enough people in in music and who do cool things, and so I started the podcast.

Speaker 3:

Um in 2017 is when I launched it. That went really well, went like straight into the new and noteworthy section in the apple charts. It then eventually got featured by apple, was like their podcast of the week or something. Um. That then propelled it into like the top three of the whatever the chart was called back then alternative health or something like that. Now I think it's like health and education, um, and it's funny, I've still got a screenshot. There was like the minimalist podcast, uh, lewis house podcast, and then mine, um, and I was like okay, that's pretty cool. Um, and then, um, I know, I said this was a short version, trust me, it is. Um.

Speaker 3:

And then, basically, when the podcast kind of blew up, people saw what I was up to. They saw the conversations I was having, they saw what I was kind of doing and naturally, people just started coming to me for help, like and asking advice for like their career or like creative adventures or well-being or you know whatever. And that kind of was what opened the door for me to coaching. Because I started kind of coaching people in my dms without really knowing that's what I was doing. It was just just trying to help kind of thing. And then, when I started to find out more about coaching, I researched it, thought you know, this is something that I think I'd be really good at. Something I'd really enjoy is helping people. I've always, you know, helped people throughout my career through my life.

Speaker 3:

And, yeah, again, long story short, um, I got into it, started coaching, enjoyed it and just went full steam ahead. Um, after 18 months of kind of testing the field, I went um full steam ahead in 2020. Lockdown kind of kicked me off a off the fence in a way, um, and I just thought, you know, I'm going for it and and I kept up with the podcast and and the start of the business at the same time and I made that my full like full-time venture was. I just decided one day, right now, I'm a full-time coach and I'm going to be a full-time coach and I'm going to go out and I'm going to build a business. And four years later, um, here we are and there's a. There's a whole another story. I could tell you about everything that's happened in the last four years as well, but that's the short version.

Speaker 1:

Nine awesome thanks so much for sharing. Sounds like a great journey and, yeah, there's a part of me that wants to ask for tips on growing a podcast, but I don't think our listeners would be that interested. But um well, you mentioned tim ferris randomly. I got some, uh, a dm, you know, in your sort of junk requests, and all it said was tim ferris turned me into a drug dealer. That was it, nothing else, just that I was like okay, sorry, oh good, congrats maybe he's showing off, yeah, um, anyway.

Speaker 1:

Uh, authenticity. I want to dive into authenticity because I think you're you're into authenticity. So what does authenticity mean to you? I?

Speaker 3:

think like for me it just means to to be yourself, right, whatever that is like you, just not like for me. Like you know, that kind of gets thrown around like be yourself, like be your best version, but like I think it's when you're acting and being, and it's more like a feeling for me, right, I just know, when I'm being authentic, like now. I'm not trying to put on a show, I'm not trying to pretend anything, I'm just talking as me and I'm and I'm sharing openly. Like to me, that that is authenticity, like it's just talking, being open, talking from your own experience, um, and and sharing in a way that's, I guess, um, just coming from that, that feeling of just like an authentic place within yourself.

Speaker 3:

You know, I'm not, I talk how I talk. I'm not trying to sound posher or or like I'm not trying to. You know, this is how I talk. When I'm talking to my girlfriend, I start talking. I'm talking to my friends, maybe with a bit more swearing when I'm not on mic, but, um, every now and then, especially when I'm watching football, but, um, yes, I think that's it.

Speaker 2:

I think it's just being able to express yourself in a way that that feels true to you was there any resistance in terms of, like talking openly, um, and maybe resistance to being your authentic self, from either, I guess, within like you thought this is a bit risky or from other people, sort of saying you know, because you know there was obviously a change that people noticed. Did that make you feel nervous? Or were you nervous about right now I'm going to be a bit more open about this stuff or were you nervous?

Speaker 3:

about. Right now I'm going to be a bit more open about this stuff. Yeah, it was. There was a lot of nervousness around that and I think that's probably like when I look back at what took me so long to admit that I was miserable, you know, 11 years ago was probably that nervousness around like how is it going to be received if I share that with someone, even if I think like on some level consciously I wasn't aware, but subconsciously I was probably aware, right, and I and I think that subconscious level was kind of like there was a fear of how is this going to be received if I actually admit this to someone and you know, and have that conversation like what is it? You know, is it going to make me look bad? Is how are people, are people going to judge me and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I guess it.

Speaker 3:

It took me a while in that respect, but then also, once I did start speaking about it, I remember like feeling really nervous, like telling my friends about my experience and and having that conversation with, with even just people close to me, like family. I don't think I've really ever properly had that conversation still with with my family, if I'm honest, they know, because I talk about a lot on my podcast and online, but I've never actually sat down and had that conversation around. This was my experience. This was what was going on. Um, so that nervousness still exists, but, you know, I try and again be as open as I can with it and and I can talk about it quite freely now because it just I don't feel like attached to it in any way. There's no, there is no nervousness there. It's just like I can. I can almost talk about it as if it was. It was someone else I'm talking about, or it's not my, it's not, it's not me, it was just like this is just a thing that happened and it's just what it is. Um, even though it's, it's benefited me in a lot of ways, right. So I think that's for me.

Speaker 3:

The nervousness comes into like play when I think about when I first was like wanting to speak, it was like, oh my god, like what? How's this going to be received? But actually I've never really had a negative reaction to it, if I'm honest, like whenever I've told someone like well, I remember like I was going to an Arsenal game, met some friends um before the game and we were. We were sat in a pub and and I just started telling them and they were like we had our beers. It was very laddish, like we're not, we're not like that group of friends at all, we're not like pubs and beers kind of guys.

Speaker 3:

So it actually sounds quite funny when I tell the story. We were sat in this pub with our beers and I was talking to them and telling them and they were like oh wow. And then one of my mates was like yeah, you know, I had a similar experience when and you know he told his experience and it was just really, it was really interesting, you know, to kind of just speak in that way and it's like, almost like being able to take off the mask, you know, and just talk as me rather than talk as the version that I'm trying to present to people, as me rather than talk as the version that I'm trying to present to people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you've said you've never had any negative, uh experiences from being vulnerable. But I have and I've had a lot of uh positive things and you know, if you go deep into, you know the the dark edges of the manosphere with, like andrew tate not that I've ever I've only ever heard secondhand info about his things. But but think about Chris Williamson. You know someone I listen to a lot and he talks about vulnerability and he will say he gives the example of Chris Bumset that you know, the seven time Mr Olympia, the seven-time Mr Olympia. He can talk about crying on his bathroom floor to his girlfriend a week before the Mr Olympia show because he's already proven his competence. He's already proven to be incredibly masculine and competent, whereas the average man, or let's say the man who's less competent than average, doesn't have that credibility in the bank to be able to be vulnerable. So, um, I've I've been called weak at times by people, I've been called unstable for for what I just, you know, considered showing emotion. So what's your take on that?

Speaker 3:

so I got a lot of takes on this. So I think, the first thing, like, I love chris williams from don't get me wrong I think I listened to his podcast. I was listening to his podcast this morning in the gym, right, but I think that idea of someone's proved their masculinity, therefore they're able to be vulnerable, is a lot of bullshit, because I think it's very damaging. Because I'm not a masculine, like classic masculine dude at all. I cry when I'm watching tv, like all the time like, and movies, like you know, I get. I get emotional around certain conversations or even like when I'm just expressing my love to my girlfriend, I get emotional and I just that's just. It's not a classic masculine trait, right? So I think that's like this and this, there's a, there's a quite um. I think that's quite a reach to say like someone, because someone's reached, you know, they've been able to show their competency as a masculine man, then they can be vulnerable. I think, actually, to me, showing your vulnerability and being vulnerable is what makes you strong as a man and anyone who who has a negative reaction to that. To me that's more of a reflection of where they're at, not where I'm at. You know, and I have had, you know, it's obviously necessarily a negative reaction, but I've had, you know, conversations with with some people who, again, they might say, oh yeah, but that's like a bit like you know, oh, you can't do, you can't cry, you can't do those things. It's obviously negative, but I just think it's like, well, that just shows me that you're not comfortable crying because I am, you know, and that's more of a reflection of you than me, I'm good with where I'm at, I'm good with who I am, I'm good with how I show up. I don't have anything to prove, and I think it's when you do have something to prove is when you detach yourself from certain feelings because they don't fit into the mold of what you're trying. Yourself from certain feelings because they don't fit into the mold of what you're trying, like it's the mask, right, they don't fit into the mold of what you're trying to prove.

Speaker 3:

So for me, it's actually comes down to to be a masculine man. You need to also be able to be in touch with more feminine traits, because that's that's exists in us, right, we're not just masculine, masculine masculine like this doesn't exist. Right, we have masculine energy and feminine energy and if we're right, we're not just masculine, masculine. Masculine like this doesn't exist right. We have masculine energy and feminine energy and if we're shutting off 50 of that, we're shutting off 50 of ourselves. You know, and I see a lot of men particularly, you know, some of the clients that I work with fall into that, you know, trap, so to speak, of just wanting to be masculine men. But actually when we start to explore the other side, it opens up a whole new, whole new world for me, and it's not always comfortable and that's you know, a lot of people aren't comfortable in those feelings and I wasn't comfortable in those feelings.

Speaker 3:

You know, I went to an all boys school. I played football my whole life. You know I've been the captain of the football team. Um, you know I've been a lad's lad, lad's holidays, but again, not super masculine. I've always been probably like a. You know you've got like an alpha male. So I guess I've always been like a beta male, right, but still like in very masculine environments. Yet when I started to get in touch with the, the softer side of myself, I started to. It was difficult and I started to feel more comfortable within myself rather than, like I always had this performative mask on, of needing to appear a certain way, etc. Etc.

Speaker 2:

Etc did you know you had to get there as part of your kind of journey or did you just discover that somewhere along the route because it looks like sounds to me you know, you know, I think you said 10 years ago was your, was the episode, and it credit to you, by the way, for like trying all these new things and like being proactive about trying to fix it. But did you have that kind of? Did you have any kind of clarity of where you were going and that you would end up in this sort of position, or did you just just think I've got to just try all this stuff?

Speaker 3:

It was more trial and error, to be honest, like if someone had signposted it and laid out the path. That would have been great. But you know, I don't think that's how it works. It's not. That's not life, right? Life is. Life's a contact sport, right? You have to play the game and you get the feedback based on the contact you get right. And if you get hit hard, then the next time you have to think about how you approach that same situation and change your approach so you don't get hit as hard, right.

Speaker 3:

And I think, yeah, like, for me it's funny because I was having a conversation with my coach, like a couple of weeks ago, and he said that I'm like a mad scientist because I'm always like trying, like, oh, I'm gonna try this. I like a mad scientist because I'm always like trying like, oh and try this, I'm gonna try this. They're gonna that little. Like I'm always kind of playing with things and experimenting with things, because I know that the more that I experiment and the more that I try things, the more I find out or get clearer on what the path is right. So if you, if I talked about changing my habits and my routines, like, if you look back 10, even even like eight years ago, five years ago at the habits that I had in place versus now. Some of them are very similar, but they've also changed over time because I've been willing to test and and and actually find the things that work best for me at any given time. And right now, you know, I've got a I said, a similar set of habits, but different. So, for example, I don't meditate as much as I did five years ago, right, I exercise more. I don't do a gratitude journal anymore. I just have, like a gratitude as a. I try and practice gratitude as a default rather than have a specific dedicated practice to gratitude. Right, I do more self-reflection now than I ever did five, six, seven years ago, particularly with my business. Right, even in the last three months, I've been doing a lot more self-reflection in my business in terms of what's working, what's what could have gone better, what can I focus on more than I was three, four, five months ago, right, so that's something that I'm playing with.

Speaker 3:

So I think, like, the more that I experiment with things, the more that I can find the things that work with me, and it's not like a, you know, I think there's also a trap of trying optimize. You know everything and wake up and have the perfect morning routine and listen to everything that Andrew Huberman says. Again, great stuff. Nothing against Andrew Huberman, but I think we can overcompensate on that stuff of like I need to get up and have my 20 minutes of sunlight and take my beta, whatever tablets and go out in the sunshine and get my feet on the grass and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3:

Beta, whatever tablets and go out in the sunshine and get my feet on the grass and and like, yeah, great, scientifically it works, but is it actually, you know? Possible number one and number two have you actually tried any of that stuff to see if it has? It makes a difference to you rather than just listen to what someone says. Like find what actually works for you, right, and I love my routine and it's come through trial and error and experimentation and that's not just like physical routines and and stuff like that, it's more like, I'd say, mental routines, if that makes any sense. Like actually like the things that I process and how I process them and you know, etc. Etc.

Speaker 1:

Etc yeah, I think there's many ways to do the right morning routine and it, uh, certainly there's an andrew huberman, you know, science-based model. But it makes me think about, you know, the analogy of djokovic, federer, nadal all three of them, you could say, the greatest tennis players ever all have a completely different approach to tennis. You know, one's really robotic, one's you know really ocd and one's really relaxed, yet they're, all you know, almost equally excellent. And so, yeah, I I think there are definitely ways to um have a great morning routine and and and. Yeah, self-experimentation, self-quantification is, uh, is, is the way to do that. Um, I just want to, lastly, touch on authenticity, and do you ever feel like being authentic has become just another branding move? You know, we see a lot of like performative vulnerability, certainly on social media these days yeah, I think now it has.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think with, with, I think particularly with the rise of tikt TikTok, right, there's a lot of like and this is funny, right, because I've, you know, I've worked as a social media producer and I've grown social channels, quite large ones, to like hundreds of thousands and tens of thousands, and so I get a lot of it like in terms of the approach and I do think a lot of it is performative and I think that, which is probably a good thing and a bad thing, it's a good thing because it's showing people who are watching it like, like being authentic is is good. But I think if it's, if the perform, the performative nature of it, isn't coming from an authentic place, then for that particular person it's probably not necessarily a good thing because it's it's a performance, it's not authentic. Um, what do you think? Because I think that's a really good question yeah, I I don't like it personally.

Speaker 1:

I'm like, if you want to be authentic and vulnerable, you don't need to record yourself doing that. Um yeah, I think it's slightly manipulative. If you're recording yourself crying about something is probably premeditated and it's probably, um yeah, trying to influence people to in a maybe like self-serving way. So, um yeah, I mean, if it's, if it's organic and it comes up naturally. I imagine a podcast. There's probably a lot more vulnerability that's authentic in a podcast compared to a social media reel. That's, you know, 90 seconds of you looking at the camera interesting on social media.

Speaker 2:

Um, and it's like what I just saw recently, like last last two weeks of um, the aussie government has banned under 16s from using it and I think there's some petition going around with under 16s. We've talked a little bit about the impact it's maybe had on on on younger people. Um, how do you kind of like balance that without you know how do you use it in a healthy way, because you are very capable of using it in in growing channels, as you've said?

Speaker 3:

yeah, to be honest, man, I think it's. I've never really been like a doom scroller, like I don't. It doesn't like I can fall into it. This is why I got off tiktok. So I was just like this is fucking dangerous. The whole app is geared to make you want to keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And six seconds, five seconds, three seconds, 20 seconds, like the whole thing's geared towards like where's the next? It's like it's literally like crack. It's like where's the next hit, where's the next hit? Like what's the next? Like it's it's mental crack and I think the for me, the balance comes from.

Speaker 3:

I know what I'm using social media for. I'm very clear, you know. It doesn't mean I don't scroll. I do every now and then, but I'm very intentional with my scrolling. So, for example, in the morning when I'm having my breakfast, I'll open up my phone, I'll go on Twitter and I'll read the football news, see what's going on. You know I'll. You know, see what the, I don't know what the, the injury updates or whatever right, just whatever's there, right, like even the fantasy football thing. I just have a look, see what's going on. You know, and I'm very intentional around what I'm using it for.

Speaker 3:

And then I have times during the day where I go on and I just have a little scroll, but it will never be more than five minutes, like never more than five minutes. And if I catch myself more than five minutes, I just stop straight away Cause I'm like I'm getting sucked into a hole here, which is my brain is telling me it's great cause it's getting the fucking crack that it wants. But it's great because it's getting the fucking crack that it wants, but it's not actually that good for me. And you know we, you know everyone that I speak to and again, this isn't like a dig. I completely understand it because I can also relate, like everyone I speak to these days is that I think I think I'm ADHD. I think I'm ADHD.

Speaker 3:

I'm not fucking surprised because your phone is teaching you to want to move on to the next thing every five seconds, like we can't keep attention because we're being we're being shown that having a short attention span is a good thing. It's a good thing, it's a good thing. So we're constantly being diverted to the next thing, be it you know, whatsapp notifications, be it you know instagram notifications, be it scrolling on the feed, be it emails. Bit like there's just so much going on all the time. Not surprised, like.

Speaker 3:

I don't think it's, you know, people necessarily having adhd.

Speaker 3:

I think our brains have become accustomed to that as a default because of the way we engage with our phones and stuff. And me too, I'm not saying I'm different, right, and saying I can relate and I think like, if we can like, for me, like having clearer boundaries around how I'm using my phone and and and being more intentional, like I'll even put in sometimes like this sounds really funny in my diary. I'll put in like 20 minutes, like during my working day where my literally all I'm doing is going on social media it's particularly twitter to go on my feed, scroll through, comment to the friends that I've made there, leave a comment to some of the interesting stuff that I see, and then I'm out again after 20 minutes and that's it, right. And again, I'm very intentional with what I'm using it for and I'm not I'm very aware of not getting sucked into the dopamine um overload. You know of doom scrolling and people call it doom scrolling, so they know, but it's just like fucking. Can you break the habit, you know?

Speaker 3:

yeah yeah, and, and I see you, you see it right, like, and again, this isn't a dig at anyone, right, because I completely understand, but you see it with you know, young kids, like it's easy for a parent to put an eye for an eye or an ipad in front of them to keep a kid distracted and quiet, but what's it doing for their brain is it's teaching them. Okay, yeah, okay, next video all right, cool. Next video okay, cool, I'm gonna watch this. Okay, next video that is teaching from an early age to like, have distracted focus, right, whereas actually, when we grow up and I'm assuming we're all around the same age, right, we had things like lego or like you know, stuff where you had to spend a bit of time on, you know, to actually accomplish something, and it's not like, okay, I'm going to do like two bricks of lego. Okay, now I'm going to play a little bit of scrabble, and then I'm going to go over here and I'm going to move some chess pieces, and then I'm going to go over here and I'm going to, you know, do this part of this puzzle, and then I'm gonna go over here and start this painting, and then that's essentially what's going on, but it's just, it's happening in people's minds and it's not happening physically out in the world. So, yeah, I think I think it's, um, it's a massive problem, huge problem. Actually. You, mm-hmm, mm-hmm? Hmm, it's a great question.

Speaker 3:

I hadn't even really considered it, to be honest, I think I think for me, like me, like, I've always had social media, so you know, I'm like a Facebook kid with growing up and my space right. So, like, I've always had social media to some aspect, and when, when I actually started to share more openly and almost document my journey was, you know, like again, like 10, 11 years ago, and actually when I started to share online was probably eight, nine years ago, but I just started to share stuff that was interesting to me, like I might you know, I actually started a whole separate Instagram account where I would just find quotes that I liked, I would post them and I would write a caption underneath as to why I like that quote, and that was it. And I used to post some of those on my Instagram account and if you scrolled far enough back, you probably see some of them and I would just document things. Like you know, I was listening to this podcast. This is really interesting. This is what I got from it, and I was just sort of sharing my journey.

Speaker 3:

So it wasn't from a place of like look how amazing I am, I've got all the answers, because I definitely don't. It was more of a place of like here's some really cool stuff that I'm learning. I want to share it with you because, a it's helpful for me to kind of deepen the learning for myself, but B, if it's also helpful for you, then yeah, amazing. So even now, like, when I create content, I probably do it in a slightly more like teachy way, but it's also coming from a place of like.

Speaker 3:

This is something that I've learned recently. This is something that I've been. It's not just information. I've read online, then I've tried to regurgitate it and make it into a video, which is probably what a lot of people do. It's me actually saying this is something that I've been experimenting with. This is something I've learned, that I've applied that. I've seen how it's made an actual change in my life and here's how it might be helpful for you as well. And I'm approaching it from from that place rather than like hey, look at me, I'm on the top of the mountain. You should all come up to the top with me, because it's so great up here it's like no, like I'm walking the path with you. I might just be a couple of steps ahead, but I'm just sharing what's going to be helpful. If you want to, you know, move along the journey with me.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. Funny. You mentioned that walking the path. I've just finished another retreat that Rich sent me on. That was exactly what it's called walking the path. Um, yeah, I was kind of like curious about about the social media thing then. Um, what is like coaching? What you mentioned that people are coming to you is could you like profile how they're approaching you through social media? Is there like any kind of pattern that you're seeing in terms of the kind of clients you're getting, the demographic you're attracting, or is it just a real range of people who've just seen your content and think you know this guy's?

Speaker 3:

yeah, so, so. So it used to be quite a range of people, um, now I would say it's a little bit more, um, refined, because I think my content is more refined in terms of, like, the things that I'm talking about just relate to different people. That when I'm starting to talk about, like creative burnout and you know being a high achiever and you know trying to balance kind of presence and performance and stuff like that, you know it speaks to different people. That's not speaking to Sally who works in the post office. That's talking to. That's that speaks to someone, like you know, the three of us probably, right, we can probably in some ways relate to those three topics, just even if I've just made them up off the head, right, so, naturally, over time have just made them up off the head, right, so, naturally, over time, I think my content has become is is become less broad. It's probably the best way to put it.

Speaker 3:

I think it was quite broad at the start because, also, again, eight, nine years ago there wasn't really many people talking about this stuff online. You know, I was. I would have so many people messaging me oh my god. It's so refreshing to hear a guy talking about this stuff, like oh my God, like this, like it was constant, like, oh my God, like, keep up the great work You're, you're inspiring me every day and I you know, I'm learning this from you and this is what you know all of this kind of stuff. Whereas now you can go on Instagram and again, it's not a dig at anyone, right, but every Tom, dick and Harry is out there sharing stuff because, just, things are just so much more accessible these days.

Speaker 3:

People are creating more content these days, so naturally there's gonna be more people sharing, right? So it's not necessarily a bad thing. But I think, when it comes to creating content, my strategic hat is okay, who's the people that I want to speak to with my content, you know, and with that, are they the people that I'd want to work with as a client? Because I'm very particular with what I work with as a client, right? So the two things almost have to to marry. And again, I wouldn't say I'm perfect at it, I wouldn't say I've got it nailed on, but and I'm playing around with different types of content in a minute, but that's how I see it is there has to be a little bit of strategy behind it, from a business perspective, but also from a perspective of, like, who's who do. I want this content to actually help, you know, because I can be helpful for everyone, or I can be really helpful for a certain group of people yeah, um, andy, I just want to say I really like you holding the pen and, uh, asking your questions.

Speaker 1:

Looks just like jeremy paxman. I like this and this vibe for you?

Speaker 2:

oh really, yeah, I, I do like to write little notes and little tangents.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thanks for noticing it looks very serious yeah makes me feel like I'm saying loads of good stuff, because you're always writing things down.

Speaker 1:

Alex, do you think growth can be addictive?

Speaker 3:

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I actually made a podcast episode recently called the I can't remember the exact title, but it was like the self-improvement paradox when getting better makes you feel worse, something like that Because it was like I started to notice in myself that I got to this place where, like, I was learning and growing so fast because I'd been on this journey again for like last 11 years, but particularly in the last four years, where I've got more into coaching. I've hired coaches, I've worked one-to-one with coaches, I've gone on retreats, I've been part of group programs. I'm just learning at this incredible rate and therefore growing at an incredible rate.

Speaker 3:

That what I found was I was always looking for the next like level up, and where I was in my life was never enough, because I was like, okay, well, what's the next thing? What's the next thing like when I have the next thing then? So I was constantly chasing this, this, this idea of better and more and growth and et cetera, and actually what I found was there's a sweet spot of wanting to grow and be better and achieve more things and perform at a higher level without making where you're at now inadequate to that. So it's like being grateful for where you're at and appreciative of where you're at and seeing the brilliance in where you're at, whilst also knowing that there is, there is, more available. So it's not making it like better to to keep growing, even though it is a better thing to always grow, right.

Speaker 3:

So this is why it's a paradox but can you, can you can you keep growing without making where you're at right now inadequate to the growth that you can have? You know, and for me that's the sweet spot, because otherwise that that addiction becomes another trap of okay. Well, like I said, what's this like? It's like the dog with a treat where's the next treat? Where's the next treat? Where's the next treat? Where's the next treat? Rather than, oh, actually I'm really enjoying this treat, oh, look, there's another one.

Speaker 2:

Okay, cool, I'm really enjoying this one now, oh, look, there's another one, rather than chasing the next one all the time I would also like rich to answer that question, because you mentioned earlier, alex, you're a bit of a mad scientist, I think I was. Just I was picturing rich when you were describing what you're up to, like trying everything and like going from this to that to this. I think he's mellowed a lot recently, rich, what, what, what. What's your take on that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would say that from a sort of early adult age, I would learn that, like, having some kind of goal was the thing that would get me out of bed, especially when I was, you know, had real problems with with depression. So I uh, you know, had real problems with with depression. So I uh, you know, building my body, you know, going to the gym, that was something that, um, it really got me out of bed. But then I would, you, kind of reach the peak for whatever that is for you of. You know, for me it was like, okay, I can't really add on any muscle, I can't really lose any more body fat, and then I became become depressed again because like, well, I can't keep walking on this path, because I can't actually, you know, without going on steroids, get any in any better shape. Um, and now that's kind of the same with. Then I switched to CrossFit and now I've sort of reached my ceiling of my CrossFit capacity and, um, yeah, I, you know, I did a competition the other week, and now it's like, oh, I'm quite sad that I don't have a competition to train for.

Speaker 1:

So I think that, yeah, there is definitely that trap of you want to just be running up the hill, but what happens when you get to the top of the hill? You need to take time to rest. You need to take time to just be still. And yeah, there's that thing of like yeahris williamson thing like type a people have a type b problem. Type b people have a type a problem, like the person you know, the high achievers. They need to learn to just be couch potatoes for like one day a week and just watch movies and chill out. And the people who are couch potatoes need to learn, you know, a few days a week. They need to to strive and push themselves and things like that. So, yeah, I think for me it's been the challenge of just to rest and stop and and not push myself so in the self-growth sphere, then it's kind of just taking time to, I guess, analyze what you've just done.

Speaker 2:

Don't like go and do ayahuasca and then next week put yourself into a silent retreat and so on and so forth. It's about taking stock and actually checking in and seeing how you feel after doing whatever phase of your self-growth you've just done yeah, what do you think about that, alex?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I agree, man. I think that integration is is important, right, it's like you can't. Like. Even even athletes, right, they have plenty of rest time. They're not just constantly training, like they probably train two hours a day, you know, like out of a 24 hour day, like probably maximum four hours, they're not training 10 hours a day because they they're, they're resting and maintaining so that they can perform at their highest level on the saturday or whenever. You know. I'm thinking about football, obviously, but like others, you know, take athletics, it's the same, right, usain Bolt probably wasn't training 10 hours a day and maybe he'll come on here one day and tell you different, right, but you know, he's probably training a few hours, getting his rest in so that the next day he can train as best as he can get his rest in, so he can train the best again, so when the next athletic meet comes, he can perform as high as he as he possibly can, which he did on numerous occasions. Hence why, you know, broke so many world records and still the world record holder, right? And I think that there is merit in, like you said, the coming, how you said it, like the high, the high performer having like couch potato days.

Speaker 3:

But the trick is like to to be able to do it guilt-free, like I love nothing more than a saturday or a sunday where my girlfriend goes out. I got that flat to myself and I can just kick back, play playstation, watch some football and just chill out. You know, not not really have to do anything, but it took me a while to get there from a perspective of not feeling guilty for being productive. Right, I would, I would do it, but I'd have this thing in the back of my mind going, yeah, but you could be using this time to like create this thing, or like, what about that podcast? You want to plan and you know you could start writing this, whatever right. And now I'm just like, yeah, I can do that. You know, during the week it's not not deep, like it's actually more important for me to enjoy what I'm doing right now I think that's what puts a lot of people off, like the uncompromising influences.

Speaker 2:

You know, like what's your excuse? And like what are you doing? What are you just like, yeah, all right, that might work for, but actually a bit of downtime for me is what I need. So I'm interested in, like you know, you've been a bit of a mad scientist, you've tried all these things. Have you got three tips for us that like absolutely non-negotiable, definitely work, and work for everyone? I don't know about everyone. I can tell you what works for me. Yeah, okay, we'll start with that.

Speaker 3:

So for me, what works is get up first thing, go to the gym. Like four days a week, go to the gym and and have and again, I'm not, I'm not 100% great at this, I would say but have goals for my workouts. I'm not just going to the gym just to like get a workout in. Like I'm actually working towards, you know, like recently I've been working towards like doing three sets of 10 pull ups, for example. So that's just like a goal that I've got in the back of my head. Can I get to there? Can I get to? Um, you know, once I've done that, maybe I'll start trying to do muscle ups or something. So just like having like a goal in mind. So go to the gym again with intention. That. And for me, first thing is like amazing, um, because it sort of sets my tone for the day. Um, on top of that, I'm going to throw a really random one at the end. So secondly, I would say prioritize eight hours of sleep. Seven to eight hours of sleep. Like that works, like I know. So I go to the gym quite early, so I go to the gym at 6am, so I'm up at. My alarm goes off at 5.30, which means I'm in bed most nights at like nine o'clock, cause by 9.30, I want to be asleep, like, read my book and go to sleep. Um, so it's like, get those seven, eight hours in and there's people out there who will go, yeah, but what about if you've got kids and but, and I get it. So I'm saying this isn't for everyone, this is what works for me. And the third thing is um, actually I'm going to change the third thing. I was going to say drink three liters of water a day. That just keeps me like on it and only have one coffee in the morning. Um, but the third thing I'm going to throw in is self-reflection. That's really been working for me. To throw in is self-reflection. That's really been working for me, a lot like weekly self-reflection.

Speaker 3:

Just sit down. I sit down at the end of the week on a Friday Last thing I do before I close my laptop, normally about three o'clock on a Friday, half three something like that and I say, okay, what went well this week? And I list out everything that went well, what could have gone better? And I list out everything that could have gone better, what's my focus for next week? And I list that it's normally like two or three things, and then I review my calendar and I look at, okay, how many coaching conversations did I have, how many?

Speaker 3:

And I just look at, like things that relate to my business how many coaching conversations did I have? How many new people did I connect with? Um, how many hours did I spend in conversation with people? Stuff like that it just relates to my business, and answering those questions provides so much clarity for me in terms of on a week-to-week basis, but also an opportunity to look back and really reflect on, okay, what can I change, what can I tweak, like where, where could I've seen something different? Where could I have showed up differently, or whatever it may be. So, um, I'd say self-reflection is is, yeah, that that third one, and not not in any level of importance either.

Speaker 1:

There's just three things, okay yeah, and there's a lot of different avenues for getting self-reflection. You have journaling, therapy, coaching, men's groups yeah, those types of things. Is there anything that you think doesn't work? You know something that's sort of held up as a truth that everyone should believe but actually you're not so sure about.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there's quite a few, but the one that jumps out straight away is like and I'm trying to think how to word it, but like this, this sort of like um, um, over celebrated idea of like hyper and, yeah, like hyper productivity, like being productive all the time, like I get what people point in that, but I think, more than trying to be productive and what people take that for is being busy, is like actually focus on the things that really matter. And you'd be so surprised, like a lot of the clients that I work with are like high achieving men, the entrepreneurs or their business owners, or they work very high up in sort of you know, corporate companies like MD sort of level and or CEO or you know, and it's like there's a lot of similar traits that I see which is like the answer to most of their problems is to work harder, right and straight away. I'm like, well, that's not the answer. Like because you're telling me, if you work harder, then something will happen and something else will happen and something else happen and then you can spend more time and be more present with your wife and kid. It doesn't work like that. You have to prioritize the things that are really important to you and make sure that you're doing the most effective things with your work time so you don't feel like you have to work harder, so you want to actually have more time to spend with your kid and your family and stop neglecting your health and get your exercises in and take your.

Speaker 3:

Take your lunch break and um, what's other classic ones like um, you know just just like eat well, like don't have like a quick, easy, grabbable lunch. I actually take time to prepare a nice lunch and you know when you're with your, your family at the end of the day, or your partner or whatever like be present, don't be thinking about work. Don't have your email notifications on and your phone on the table and like everything pinging off. Like leave your laptop in the other room, like all of this stuff. Um, is actually having that balance of the priorities is what actually makes you productive, because you become more focused with the time that you do have at work, because you're focusing on the actual things that you need to be doing, especially when you're higher up in you know, or running a business, rather than just the busy work, the nitty-gritty stuff that you don't really need to be doing, and it's taking up your time and taking you away from the important things in your life, like your health and your family nice.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I actually saw someone who's getting absolutely rinsed in the comments, but he was basically saying that he splits his day into three days of eight hours and like, therefore, he gets three days for everyone's one and just like. What on earth are you talking about? Was that kind of hyper productivity? Thinking I was just like you are actually a muppet yeah, I think.

Speaker 3:

I think that's probably like a take on on something that gary v's kind of said quite a lot is like you've got 24 hours, you spend eight hours sleeping, you spend eight hours at work, um, you know taking you know two hours an hour to travel there and back at you know an hour for dinner and you've basically got like five hours left of your day. Like what are you doing with those five hours, kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

Probably, it's probably like a version yeah, I'm sure he meant well, it's just like basically said he has three times more more days than anyone else. He's thinking that's not quite right, it works for him. It works for him. Yeah, I was also hoping you'd say, when you're like what doesn't work, I was really hoping you'd say conscious, connected breathing. That's been Rich's life for like the last 10 years.

Speaker 1:

I should have been quick of it.

Speaker 2:

I'm really hoping I was like fingers crossed.

Speaker 3:

Meditation is trash. No, I'm joking. Meditation is trash. Now I'm done.

Speaker 2:

I love meditation, so so what's uh what? What's next for you? What do you? What are you? Uh, what's your sort of medium-term goal, future goals?

Speaker 3:

um. So the mission I'm on at the minute, to be completely honest with you, is, um, transforming the approach to well-being and productivity in the music and creative industries. So this is this has kind of been my mission for a long time, but now I'm actually starting to have more conversations around it, and particularly in the wake of, like the, the Liam Payne news from a couple weeks ago, and, having worked in the industry and knowing artists and knowing how the industry works, just looking at it from an outside perspective now, and and also from a coach's perspective of like, how can that be happening? It's 2024. Like, where was the support? Like, if I was working with him, we wouldn't be having that conversation. You know, if I, if I'd been working with him, with the conversation we would be having, is like, oh my god, he's making the best music of his life because he'd be in the best headspace of his life, because he'd be taking care of the right things and prioritizing the right things.

Speaker 3:

And I want to, you know, change that narrative. You know, eradicate that kind of um, the, the mental health issues, let's say, in those sort of music and creative spaces, because it's rife and that's a lot of down to pressures and overworking and, um, you know, not having boundaries, and there's a whole bunch of stuff that's disinvolved um, so that's kind of like the long-term mission. And then sort of right in front of me is um just continuing doing my one-to-one work. I'm thinking about potentially bringing interviews back for my podcast at some point in the new year. So, which is space, and, yeah, filling up my retreat, which is happening in June 2025. And they're the kind of media things.

Speaker 2:

can you give us a bit more details about the retreat?

Speaker 3:

yeah. So, um, I mean, I'll give you the the kind of nutshell version. So it's, it's a, it's actually it's like a six-month group program, um, because I think I've been on retreats where you just turn up for the day and it takes half a day to kind of get to know everyone and feel comfortable in the space and all of this. So what I like to do is have it set up like a group program. So actually there's four months prior to start to get to know the people who are in the group with you through group calls, through connecting with people in your own time and a bunch of other stuff time, um, fruit and a bunch of other stuff. So that when we get together, um, for the six days that we spend in france because I host it in france, south of france everyone's already showing up into that room feeling like family.

Speaker 3:

It's not six strange or seven strangers, including me, showing up, it's seven friends, seven people who are already connected, ready to get together and do some really meaningful work and make some meaningful changes in people's lives. Be that mindset, be that habits, be that um, you know, changing your belief systems, whatever it is, and it's it's kind of different every year, depending on the group. To be honest, um and um, yeah, and that's basically it. That's the nutshell version and, to be honest, I could talk another hour about it.

Speaker 1:

And where do people find more info about you and your retreat?

Speaker 3:

Best place is either Instagram or Twitter X whatever people are calling it these days at. I am Alex Manzi. I've also got a daily email that I send out, which you can find the link to on both of those platforms, um, which I just share kind of again my insights, my learnings, things that are kind of going on in my world with, with actionable steps and tips to help people kind of become more present, more uh productive and uh less burnt out in their lives and creative endeavors.

Speaker 2:

Very good, all right, well with that, yeah yeah, absolutely best of luck with that listener.

Speaker 1:

Go check him out and yeah, thank you very much, alex cheers, alex pleasure.

Speaker 2:

Cheers, alex Pleasure. What a lovely young man. I love the finish of love the end, not because it was the end, but because when he was talking about his wider goal to improve mental health and wellbeing well-being and wellness in the music industry and I've watched a couple of documentaries obviously we touched on what um happened with, with liam pain he was he was very passionate about that and I've watched the um avicii documentary, which I think was quite um, yeah, quite harrowing to watch, and also, obviously, lewis capaldi um in terms of of his struggles in that regard. So that really resonated with me. I think that's such a niche but an amazing kind of aim to have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I was thinking about Avicii as well, and I was thinking about this idea that if you're successful and wealthy, you don't have a right to suffer, you don't have a right to be depressed And's like, oh, whatever, you know you've got money, you can just, uh, you know, pay, pay your way into whatever you want. And it's obviously not true. You know very many very successful people, be it professional athletes, actors, musicians, they, a lot of them, struggle with their mental health. And yeah, really annoys me when people say like, oh, you know they don't have problems because they've got money, but it doesn't seem to be the case. You know, we can have empathy for those people as well. And then I also do.

Speaker 1:

You know the Enneagram Andy. Yes, I am familiar. Yeah, so there's the Enneagram Type 4, which is the romantic, and I think a lot of the Type 4s end up being creatives. You know, poets, writers, actors, those types of things and their, their whole like essence is often quite like tinged with pain. You know the the one of the captions for the type four is like no one will understand the depths of my pain. So I wonder if that, the depths of that pain, is like a fuel for these creative aspects, that pain. It's like it's on a knife edge.

Speaker 2:

They need a book that my mom always used to like, and it basically talked about the link between um creativity and basically basically bipolar like mental health issues and the fine line between that, and there's some very famous creatives who've obviously got got got issues in that regard and um a lot of comics, weirdly. So, yeah, almost the the opposite of what you'd expect.

Speaker 1:

Um, with severe depression, um so, yeah, that the comic thing. Yeah, I can't remember who said it, it was a comic and it's like uh, you say to, oh, I'm a comedian, and the the first question they ask is okay, which one of your parents was depressed? It's like every comedian becomes funny to help their parents, who, one or two may have mental health issues, which is quite sad.

Speaker 2:

There we go. Yeah, agreed Well, no. Thank you very much, alex for his time. I'm sure he has reached a very cool audience in our listeners. Thank you for listening. Where do you find us?

Speaker 1:

Where do you find us? We are at Andy ASAM on Instagram at the underscore breath, underscore geek, although I may be changing it soon. I may finally step into Dr Breath. Geek, dr Breath.

Speaker 2:

Geek, you can't do that, why not? Okay, fine, I'll get used to it. I'll come back to you with feedback. Okay, dr.

Speaker 1:

Richard.

Speaker 2:

L Breathgeek.

Speaker 1:

And for your website RichardLBlakecom. That's my American website. Well, it's been a pleasure. Yeah, thanks, alex.

Speaker 2:

Again. Thank you, listener, See you soon.

Speaker 1:

Thank you Andy.

Speaker 2:

Bye-bye.