How EMDR & Tech Are Transforming Trauma Therapy with Brad Mosell

➡️ Download my FREE IFS Resource Library - Get access here: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-resource-library-youtube

In this conversation, John Clarke interviews Brad Mosell, founder and CEO of Dharma Doctor, about Brad’s journey into the mental health field, the development of accessible mental health interventions, and the evolution of their product, which integrates EMDR and bilateral stimulation. They discuss the importance of addressing trauma in educational settings, the role of teachers in mental health, and the future of therapy technology, including the integration of biometrics and AI in therapeutic practices.

Key takeaways:

• Discover how bilateral stimulation is being woven into everyday tools to make trauma-informed care more approachable—even outside the therapy room.
• Explore how Brad Mosell turned his own healing journey with EMDR into a mission to bring these powerful tools into schools, homes, and underserved communities.
• Learn why bilateral stimulation works and how it mimics the brain’s natural processing patterns to unlock stuck trauma.
• Peek into the innovative ways tactile tech is helping clients feel grounded, present, and open to doing deep inner work.
• Hear how a tech entrepreneur left Silicon Valley to create a company focused on mental health, and why therapists should be paying attention to what's coming next.

Stay in touch with our guest below: 

🗣️ Brad Mosell

Brad Mosell is the founder and CEO of Dharma Dr., a company dedicated to improving access to EMDR and bilateral stimulation. A veteran and educator, Mosell combines his technical expertise with a passion for healing, aiming to address the mental health challenges faced by today's youth and adults alike.

Instagram: @mydharmadr

 Resources & Offerings:

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➡️ 10% Off at Grounding Well – Use code GWJOHNCLARKE or visit: https://www.groundingwell.com/GWJOHNCLARKE

➡️ 10% Off at Dharma Dr. – Use code JOHN or visit: https://dharmadr.com/JOHN

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Transcript

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And I found that to be so incredibly helpful, just like instantly, right? Like it was an instant way of getting my brain back to center line. So the question was like, could we take that and turn it into a accessible tool for anybody, anywhere and use that sort of as a gateway to these higher levels of care? Going inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clark for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery. Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at John Clark therapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Brad Mosell is the founder and CEO of Dharma Doctor, a company dedicated to improving access to EMDR and bilateral stimulation. A veteran and educator Mosell combines his technical expertise with a passion for healing, aiming to address the mental health challenges faced by today's youth and adults alike. Brad, thanks so much for doing this. It's great to finally meet you. We've been collaborating for a little bit now. It's great to finally meet you. Thanks. Thanks for having me on, John. Yeah. And I feel like this is a long time coming in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's Wonderful to connect and super excited. Cool. Super excited to talk. Yeah. A little background. I came across you guys probably on Instagram and I've been doing EMDR since 2015 maybe, so 10, 10 years, believe it or not. So I reached out, I got your product, so I got the tabs. That are wonderful. And then we've done a few other things collaborating with your team. We've done some content. I have some IFS meditations inside the app, which is really cool. So people can do those with the tabs, with the bilateral stimulation, which is really neat. Yeah. So it's been neat to get to know you all a little bit. And with that being said, I'm curious to hear your story as to who you are and how you got here with this work. I'd love to talk about it a little bit also. Yeah, those IFS meditations are wonderful. Like they're really cool. So thank you. So my Dharma doctor was founded three years ago, was like day zero for Dharma Doctor, but prior to that my, I had been working in education most recently. I grew up in Boise, Idaho. That's where I'm standing right now, but left here and went to school in the bay, went to Berkeley and after college, worked in some startups. Did some tech, some product development. We'll dive into this, but there was a quite a big detour after that sort of a, a. My own mental health challenges and spirit quest, and I found myself looking for some answers to some questions I had about my own world, and that led me to EMDR at one point. So I, I was a client of EMDR before I was ever involved, and then it led me back to education. And so in 2017, I decided that I was gonna leave all of the startup stuff and really focus on education, particularly with at-risk adolescents. So students that were in these alternative environments. I was teaching for a community college here doing like adult education outreach. So young adults who had dropped out of school and trying to bring them back into the fold. And then I also taught. At a high school for pregnant and parenting teens. And in those environments, I was not a mental health counselor in any way. But I saw really. The need for accessible interventions. And the way that unless we address these underlying concerns, all of these other resources that were pouring on top of it, really were going to waste on a daily basis. I had students that had every, every ACE score. Under the sun. Plus we're dealing with baby daddy, drama, incarceration, substance abuse, all the things. And I was tasked to try and teach them like basic fractions at the time, and it just wasn't gonna happen, like nobody. There, there wasn't a cognitive availability really for that in a lot of ways, that kind of had me. Perplexed. One of my first advisors, he was an EMDR therapist for the va. He was, an advisor slash a mentor, and he'd given me a pair of the old Thera Tappers, like the WA the box with the two wires to the two paddles. And asked me to use them in my morning meditations. So this was outside of EMDR context, but use this as a grounding resource early on. And I found that to be so incredibly helpful, just like instantly, right? Like it was an instant way. Of getting my brain. The question was like, could we take that and turn it into a accessible tool for anybody, anywhere, and use that sort of as a gateway to these higher levels of care. Bring these clinical level interventions into non-clinical environments and make them as accessible as like a fidget spinner. That was the framework that ultimately led to. The starting of Dharma doctor, and I had no idea how difficult it was to build a hardware product, and that's a whole nother story. But two and a half years later, we were able to finally launch the tabs. Now they're being used by thousands of therapists around the country and individuals alike. And we're building out this ecosystem. Yeah. We have some overlap in the school environment. Know I started my career in. Community mental health. And so I worked in juvenile probation, juvenile justice, foster care system. Eventually I was, a behavioral therapist inside of a school here in San Francisco in a pretty underserved neighborhood, I guess you could say. And so asking these kids to sit still for five or 10 or 15 or 60 minutes at a time, or six hours at a time was a really tall task when their systems are just full of trauma. And they also didn't have breakfast. And they also are not going home to a safe house or a safe neighborhood. And so these little level, they're home at all Maslow needs. Yeah. If they're going home at all. Exactly. And so as a mental health person coming in and being tasked with, okay, you need to help this kid sit still, so really tall order. But also, teachers are. Very much the frontline for mental health, right? And teachers are often the first people who get wind of what's going on at home or get wind of, Hey, this kid hasn't had breakfast today or at all this week. Teachers really have the pulse on how kids and communities and families are really doing right. And also teachers are often very. Short staffed and under-resourced themselves to serve kids while also trying to serve the other 18 kids who maybe are able to sit still and have their needs met teachers. It's amazing to me. But yeah, they are this frontline and they have these very deep personal relations and they also don't have training in mental health intervention. That's right. I went back and got a master's in teaching at one point, and there was surprisingly more than I thought, but like still very little emphasis on recognizing emotional regulation dysregulation, like the impact of trauma on the brain, how to create stabilization or interventions at all, like very little energy. And historically there's so much energy placed on. Building good curriculum, how to create a good lesson plan, like the actual implementation of the teaching. But as trauma, becomes more and more of a pressing issue inside those communities, there's this weird misalignment of the training and the job at hand. Yeah, because one definitely, I. It comes first. Yeah. Until you have that Maslow higher, like until you can stabilize the other higher level educational tasks are missed. One of my, while I was at, while I was at Cal I worked for this group called the Bay Area Urban Debate League or Bottle. And so I actually, I worked in some of those same under like underserved communities bringing debate classes in. And it was so interesting working in those environments and providing, most of what you did was actually like mentoring youth, and then there was a little bit of like actual curriculum and education on top, but yeah, exactly. Definitely formative. In, in my experience and in my work, I've been a therapist for a long time, but the world and the systems we operate in are slowly waking up to the idea of trauma and the impact of it. Whether it's in the classroom or even I. Part of my background is as a first responder, and so I worked alongside a lot of police officers and veterans, or veterans who are then police officers or firefighters or whatever it is. We even studied coping skills at one point, so part of my, graduate program, we had done a study on coping skills of first responders, and as you can imagine, they're pretty bad. They're pretty minimal, which is like. Using dark humor and substances, substance use to deal with it. Basically like tremendous amounts of caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, what, whatever, to douse your nervous system. And so there's a lot of stigma I think that is slowly lifting and that is shifting. And then people are more enlightened to this idea of trauma. And what is trauma and how does it impact the body and the brain, the mind, the nervous system, the spirit, and. What needs to happen in order to heal and to facilitate healing? So things like EMDR and bilateral stimulation and my work also integrating IFS somatic work, et cetera, are all things that help support the healing that is waiting to be happening. And I think really the way I explain EMDR to clients is. EMDR and the bilateral stimulation piece is just helping your brain do what it's already trying to do, which is consolidate the difficult memories that are stuck on your desktop, so to speak. They're stuck in short term memory, and that's why we get the flashbacks and dissociation, the psychological avoidance and all this stuff. So we're just helping your brain do what it already wants to do. And I think the BLS really. Facilitates that. And also there's a million forms of BLS. Years ago we started an equine therapy program, and you think about, we would have kids and adults that were riding very slowly and gently on a horse, and you're rocking left to right. I also surf, I play drums, all these things. So BLS to me is everywhere. And EMDR just puts it in this really clear protocol. PDF, where. We go toward activating memories while introducing the BLS. We operationalized it, yeah. In 2016, I hiked the Appalachian Trail, and so I Oh, nice. My, my old, my backyard. Yeah. In Virginia. Oh yeah. Where I'm from, where I'm from. I'm San Francisco now, but grew up in Roanoke, so it goes right through there. But that just walking right, it's just b ls is as simple as walking and walking for that amount of time. Like it's this pattern. When we started Dharma Doctor, I would regularly, and I still do, but we get these questions like, is it safe? Is BLS safe? And it's funny to me because I'm like, it's one of the most natural operations of the entire body. You are going to experience some degree of BLS every single day. What we've done is simply operationalized it and then utilized it in this other protocol and, we can use it in a whole different, a bunch of different protocols. But the actual mechanism itself, similar to what happens during REM sleep, that was one of the major thoughts. Early in E mdr r and Francine Shapiro herself came to it after going on a walk, that was her. The sort of genesis story, but so many different ways to achieve it. And it's such a powerful tool. Like it's a beautiful brain hack to help the brain do what it naturally wants to do, which is, heal. Yeah. Yeah it's a great point. I think in my experience and as a trauma therapist, how we keep. The work safe and healing safe is, you can certainly, and people certainly retraumatize themselves, BLS or not, by just putting themselves back in the worst memories of their life, right? And going at it, going from zero to 60 with those memories, sometimes willingly, sometimes unwillingly. Part of how healing happens is titration a very slow, gradual exposure to the difficult stuff. So that might be going toward a memory that's like a three out of 10 and slowly introducing bilateral stimulation or some somatic work, or getting to know these parts of you that are stuck in that. That painful place or whatever it is. So naturally this idea of trauma dumping, people often come into therapy and they do it. Even we have people that on the initial phone call, when they're reaching out, they assume that therapists needs to know everything that happened to them in order for the therapist to help, which is not the case. They've even done EMDR across languages or without language. But the therapist's job is really to help. The client goes slow and titrates and help people learn the language of their nervous system and not just flood themselves with every detail of the worst day of your life. And of course the steps and protocol of EMDR are a lot about that, the treatment planning piece and history taking and, resourcing while you're also doing the exposure work. That's a really interesting point, the idea that like. The therapist actually slows the process down and that's what enables it to then take root and grow, but left to your own devices, like people are constantly retraumatizing themselves. Anyways, it's a. Interesting misconception in a lot of ways, which is though the therapist is gonna help you bring these things up, the reality is that those things are directly interfering with your life every single day and you are actively doing things to push them back or yeah, keep them bay or cope with it. Instead, it needs a safe and controlled way of. Expressing itself and being let go. I also, I was a first responder. I worked as an EMT for a while, and one of the analogies I like to give is if you have a deep cut and it has a bunch of junk in it, like a road rash, you have to clean the wound in order for it to heal. But if you clean it and you put it in the proper conditions, like it heals itself in a lot of ways, right? Like the body is this miraculous. In absolutely incredible mechanism and it's seeking healing like it's seeking. It has all the power itself to do that. It just needs to be given these right conditions. So if we can create or construct these conditions and help clean out the things that are in the way, and then give it the time it needs to heal. It'll do that naturally. Hey, if you're a therapist, I want to help you deepen your client work, help them get better results without burning yourself out. You can do all this by learning to harness the power of IFS. So I want to tell you, we've got a free IFS resource library that you can download. Now, this is full of resources, like my Quick Start guide to IFS, the full IFS protocol, a bunch of demos of me doing IFS. With real people and extra self-care practices for therapists. You can get all this for free in the link in the description, and I hope you enjoy. I, I'm pretty interested in also the evolution and development of your product. And I don't know how this is possible that I've been doing EMDR for 10 years,'cause I feel like it was yesterday that I got trained, but EMDR was the first kind of trauma intervention that I really learned or got trained in because like many therapists in graduate school. We didn't really talk about trauma and certainly we were not trained in things like E-M-D-R-I-F-S or SE to actually treat trauma. So like most therapists, I was comfortable having clients talk about what happened to them. And I would help them process it by just talking about, and what was that like for you and can you be with the emotion and whatever. But I didn't have tools to actually help them complete processing or re reprocessing. And actually. Go from A to B and truly heal from it until I discovered EMDR at the time, the no devices were really on the market from my memory, at least not to my memory, 10 years ago. And so I also did a hundred percent in-person work. So I would go to the office, in the Monday after the training, I said, we're gonna. We can try this thing and I would slide my chair up to the client, like right in front of them. Our knees almost touching. Yeah, you could. You could tap or really we would just do this with my hand. Left to right and did that for years until my arm got too tired and it wasn't until I. Got like the tappers were probably my first device with this, but I had started doing therapy online before Covid, 'cause my wife and I had moved and so I was doing all virtual work and so had to figure things out or move my hand like this on the screen. Or have the client do the butterfly hug, whatever it is. It's really interesting that this. Device at your tappers. I can have my client get a pair. I can have them hold these in their hands, and then through the app I can actually control the BLS for their tabs. That's to me one of the most outstanding features given that right now still my work is actually still all online, so I. Yeah, there you go. That's cool. You were one of the beta online therapists back apparently. Yeah. Before it was cool. Yeah, I know. I was talking to my wife about that. It was just by necessity that I went remote before it was cool and now it's very normal, if not the norm. Yeah. COVID really did a number on in therapy spaces. But yeah, that was always a feature that we. We thought was very important to the early design of the Taps. I, I hinted to this, but I'd never built a hardware product in my life when I started. So you felt, how hard can it be? Yeah, how hard can it be there? Let's just like software, right? I mean it's actually, it's both hardware and software. Oh, yeah. And firmware. There's a whole, there's a whole separate world called firmware that nobody knows about that just have also has to be built. But the first models I made were out of clay on my dining room table. It it was like, this is what I want this thing to basically look like. And then we came up with this feature set and. When I, three years ago, the tapers had already existed. People were using light bars for in-person therapy. There's a couple different online groups that were trying to do some sort of online EMDR, whether it's a ball that goes back and forth, et cetera. Touchpoints had done a independent bilateral stimulator that were used, so used outside of the therapeutic context. And so there was some precedent, but what I saw was missing was a lot of the tools were designed for the therapist in a lot of ways. Like it was a clinical tool. Yeah. Rather than being designed for the end user. Like rather being designed for the client. And I thought that was interesting'cause it's ultimately the client that's holding onto them, like it's ultimately a client facing device. And then going back to this education piece like. I wanted a product that reduced the accessibility barrier. I might not be able, as a teacher, you definitely can't go in and be like, Hey, we're gonna work through trauma, the trauma that you're facing, and that's gonna be what we do. That's outside of the scope, right? There's counselors and people that can work on that, but as a teacher, I couldn't. But what I could do is I could give them a pair of the tabs and say, Hey hold onto these for a couple minutes just to help yourself get grounded. Like an advanced fidget spinner. And so we wanted to have a super low barrier to entry for that first initial interaction with the tabs and with the ecosystem. And that's why having a hardware piece was so important is because it made that ability to. Hand it to somebody, right? You can, there's object permanence in it. You can just give it over and say, here, take this. And that starts the whole cascade of the journey. Introspection, more education, healing, whatever it's going to be. We really wanted to start there. Yeah. And so the first kind of features we built really were, we wanted the tabs to work independently so you could use'em anytime without an app, anything. We wanted the app to be able to control the tabs, so in person therapy. You could control 'em from across the room and actually have a session. And then we wanted to have that remote access so that therapists anywhere in the world could control the tabs and we could build into building that bridge to higher levels of care when people were ready. Yeah, I love it. You know what's really interesting me is, this is probably six or seven years ago, I was using the Theo Tappers in my office and we were like finishing and the client handed them back to me and he was like, can I like buy some of these? And I had never, I. 'Cause he wanted to use them at home. And I had actually never thought of that. I was like, I actually don't know. Maybe you could go to the website like this is the name of them or whatever. I don't know if anything is gonna stop you from buying these vibrating tabs or whatever. But I had never had a client ask, but he clearly saw the benefit. And even if outside of EMDR, he knew that he liked. This tactile simulation. And this gentle vibrating left to right thing and even incorporating the eyes that would have him hold them up and they're vibrating while he's also looking left to so you're getting double bilateral simulation. Oh wow. My screen is like celebrating I How that, wow, I, if I do that again, the new feature, I don't know what I did. That was really weird. Oh, it's happening again. You did it again. Oh, for the audio listeners, there's, I'm setting off fireworks with my hands for no reason anyway. Yeah I hadn't thought of it really, but he knew that he just liked it was getting something from just the, holding the tabs or even using them to resource. And just doing some grounding at the beginning or end of session. It's probably been in the last eight years really that I think back to when fidget spinners exploded, but now even in most classrooms, there's some degree of tactile stimulation. A toolbox, right? Yeah. Like a fidget box where you have the pop sockets or the fidget spinners, or these different clays, putties. We've grown to really appreciate and accept the value of a, of tactile stimulation as I. So positive for the brain and positive for healing. And I think that's, we wanted to play into that even more so that the current Thera tappers, the hard plastic, we wanted something that was ergonomic, something that was wireless, something that reminded us of a meditation stone. We use that soft touch silicone. So it's like a very pleasant experience and that provide both the tactile and the visual BLS. I actually wanted to ask you about the material as well, because when I got these in the mail from you guys and, made a quick review, one of the first things I noticed and mentioned was the texture. They're not this cold, hard plastic that, that you would find in some other products, but they're very soft. They don't have wires, they're wireless, so they fit completely in your. Your hand, you can close your hand around them and they have this kind of groove on the top where you can place your thumb or just find a comfortable way to, to hold it. So how did you all get to this design and this texture? I. More clay. More clay, really. I really, I was inspired always by the meditation stone. The meditation stones were, over thousands of years. Okay. Or a hundred tens of years rubbing your thumb on it, you build that. Oh, I see. Yeah. Build that shape. We started really with clay and after clay, I did the first 3D prints and we changed the, we adjusted the shape and size and tried to get to the right concave from day one, though, I, I knew that I wanted it to have that silicone, it's a silicone sleeve on it so you can actually take the sleeve off. And replace 'em if they ever get dirty or sometime in the future we'll have custom colors. Yeah. So you could change out the colors and personalize them. Yeah. That world is coming, but we wanted to have that silicone from the start and so I brought on our first advisor, or like formal advisor to the company, actually had experience building products in that vein, and she helped teach me basically how to identify manufacturers and how to go through the process of. Of silicone molding using 3D printers and home silicone kits and yeah, it's a whole process. But I was gonna ask about that. So when you had your own prototype, like at what point do you ask a manufacturer to actually make you that prototype so you can see. We how that is, we did it pretty early. So since by bringing on that advisor, she connected us with one of her early manufacturing partners that she'd worked with previously for, almost a decade. And that enabled us to build a rough version very quickly. Yeah. The first version we built didn't have Bluetooth and it was just a proof of concept of what would the size be? What would the case look like? We were able to get to there probably honestly within about. Four months of starting the company. It took another year and a half to go from there to actually manufacturing in bulk and distributing the first thousand sets of tabs. It's quite a long journey from like MVP to product and market. Yeah. Yeah. But the first step went pretty quickly. We got a little bit of time left, but Brad, talk to me more about the app and its evolution and also. I guess the future of the app because as I mentioned at the beginning, part of how I've gotten involved is you can, users can access my IFS meditations on there and we have the BLS timed, so I set. A cadence and a pacing for the tappers to kick in at a certain point in the meditation and then to taper off. Yeah. How is that whole development going, and then what do you see as like the future of the app? Yeah. Right now so we have those features that we already talked about, but then we also have this content piece, and it's been amazing. To work with therapists like yourself. I think we have seven or eight now that are inside the app who have helped put together resourcing videos that could be used anytime by anybody, and they are paired with the app. It's a dynamic experience, unlike, say, Headspace or Inside Timer, where you're just listening in taking. We have that tactile component and it creates a very holistic, it's a really cool thing to do. It has this other element to it that keeps you very engaged and keeps you very focused, and it's been amazing to see that content really come together. We're excited about moving, adding additional content and continuing to develop that library. We're also really excited about using biometrics and ai. To help create new experiences and sort of new protocols. We're working with a couple different companies to integrate your heart rate and your heart rate VI variability alongside EEG scans. So sometime in the future you'll be able, as a therapist, you'll be able to monitor the heart rate, say of your client while using the tabs or heart rate variability, and give a deeper level of like intervention. Insight. Can we see these inflection points when we're administering EMDR? We're often looking for these inflection points, right? You're looking for a change in posture, a change in breathing, a sigh. These like moments of oh, there was something that happened and we think that using biometrics, we'll be able to identify that in a. More accurate way. We're exploring the creation of a AI assisted TSIs log. So inside of EMDR, there's this idea of this TSIs log, right? Which is like, how do we identify these triggers? How do we identify these targets? Can we track our, can daily interactions to distill back to the target or the negative cognition? So we're really. Working on how could AI help in that process, right? If we give it access to some data or even just, ask a question, can it then help us identify some of these targets and create some of the structure inside the app? Almost like a. Duolingo for therapy is the way that we think about it. And, this is done with a therapist or in the context of some other protocol or we're doing it in a supportive environment as what we talked about earlier, right? We don't, we gotta balance this thing too, so that we create a safety and we create the ecosystem. But I think that. There's just so much, there's so much that hasn't been developed here. The technology has. So yeah it's been stuck in this old, in this own modality. And we have tools now that could make it. Scalable and accessible. We're exploring ways to integrate that. Awesome. Now, I don't know what any of that's gonna be available, but some basically, yeah. Yeah. I I'm interested in these types of metrics and Yeah. Biometrics and in fact. We, I studied biofeedback in, in undergraduate. We did research Out of all the devices I researched, I use the aura ring some, I wear it all the time, and it gives an incredible amount of data and also presents it to me in a really fun way. But I actually just started recommending it to a few clients, especially one client who he doesn't know when he's redlining. And so for instance, the metrics or the alerts. That the app can give me and show me when I'm stressed, if I have a one hour call. That was pretty stressful. It tracks that and is tracking, heart rate variability your breathing, your temperature, and it's oh yeah, this dude is stressed. Connecting, connecting to what's really going on is a really big part of. The therapy. And a lot of what therapists are trying to do with clients of, can you track that? Can you notice that in your body? How do you notice when you're stressed or about to fly off the handle? Or you go home and you didn't know that you're a 70 outta 100, and then you get into a fight with your partner or whatever, and all of a sudden you're at 100. That's what getting triggered is. Again, not to mention. Coming from the world of being a first responder, as a first responder, a lot of us were running at, 70 out of 100 all the time because you're dealing with insane situations and high stress, and you need to have a certain amount of stimulation to be able to respond or do the call or do. Whatever. And so yeah, connecting people to what's happening inside is really great. And even tracking things like sleep I'm all for it. So yeah. I'm excited to see what's ahead for all that. It's an interesting time because there's this feedback loop, right? Where we're measuring these things Yeah. And then we wanna see this intervention and it goes both ways. Where in therapy, oftentimes you're working through something. But you want to see some sort of tangible improvement. I wanna show that, hey, over the last month, your heart rate has variability has gone down, or has improved. Or your heart rate's gone down, or your general stress score has gone down that shows that this was successful or I don't just wanna measure these things for the sake of measurement. I want to measure them so that I can produce some outcome. Maybe it's performance enhancement, right? We're measuring all these variables, but then what do we do with that and, and how do we close the loop? And I think that's where we want to sit. Is we wanna be an app that helps people close that loop between measurement and behavior change. And we do that by utilizing some of these tools and protocols and interventions and therapists. Yeah. Like they, they become that, that link to close. Yeah. To close the feedback loop. Yeah. That's the goal. Brad, this has been great. So as we. As we wrap up, how can folks learn more about your product and what you all do and how can they benefit from your product, whether they're a therapist or a consumer, which our audience is both. Yeah. You can find us@dharmadoctor.com. That's D-H-A-R-M-A-D r.com. We have tabs currently available. There's also a link at the bottom for therapists and partners if you're interested in becoming a partner and contributing. You can reach out to us there or email us at partners@dharmadoctor.com. I'm sure there'll be a link somewhere in, in the show notes as well. If you're interested in purchasing a set of tabs, please go through the link and love to help. We also and follow us on social. All of our social handles are at my Dharma doctor. We're putting out constant content from both ourselves and our therapy partners. We're still a pretty small company, but we're growing and we'd love everybody to be a part of the journey. Awesome. Thanks again, Brad, for being here. It's, it is great to hear your story and of course the story of your company and products, so thank thanks for being here and thanks everybody for listening. My pleasure, John. Thanks for having me on today. Sure thing. Keep in touch. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at John Clark therapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at John Clark therapy.com. See you next time.