Trauma Healing Without Talk Therapy with Emmy Ferguson

What if healing trauma didn’t have to happen in an office—or even through traditional “talk therapy”? In this episode of Going Inside, John Clarke sits down with therapist Emmy Ferguson to explore how IFS (Internal Family Systems), nonviolent communication, and extended wilderness experiences can create profound healing and growth. Emmy shares her journey from leading month-long outdoor expeditions to becoming a therapist, and how she helps people unlock their emotional resilience by stepping into discomfort, conflict, and connection.

Whether you’re a therapist, a healer, or someone on your own growth journey, this episode invites you to rethink what therapy looks like—and where true transformation happens.

3 Key Takeaways:

1️⃣ Why Facing Real-Life Challenges Can Unlock Emotional Healing
 Discover how stepping into discomfort—whether in therapy or the wilderness—helps people reconnect with their strength and capacity for change.

2️⃣ The Healing Power of Conflict (When Done Right)
 Learn how nonviolent communication and group dynamics can transform conflict into connection and growth.

3️⃣ IFS as a Way of Life, Not Just a Therapy Tool
 Emmy shares how IFS interweaves with practices like embracing mortality, restorative circles, and outdoor leadership to create holistic healing.

Guest: Emmy Ferguson

Emmy Ferguson is a therapist who sees IFS as more than a therapeutic modality—it’s a daily practice of awakening to interconnection, healing, and aliveness. Her work is deeply informed by years of facilitating transformative wilderness expeditions, guiding restorative processes, and helping people embrace personal growth through challenge. Emmy helps clients access their inner healing capacity by integrating IFS with experiential learning and mindfulness around life’s impermanence.

Resources & Offerings:
➡️ Free IFS Training for Therapists: From Burnout to Balance: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast
➡️ 1-Month Grace Period with Jane – Use code JOHN or visit: https://meet.jane.app/john-clarke-ambassador
➡️ 10% Off at Grounding Well – Use code GWJOHNCLARKE or visit: https://www.groundingwell.com/GWJOHNCLARKE
➡️ 10% Off at Dharma Dr. – Use code JOHN or visit: https://dharmadr.com/JOHN

Connect with me:

https://www.johnclarketherapy.com/
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https://www.tiktok.com/@johnclarketherapy
https://www.youtube.com/@johnclarketherapy

Grab Your Seat for the Free IFS Webinar Here: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast

➡️ Free Training - Learn how to integrate the principles of IFS into your therapy practice: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast

Transcript

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We talk about it all the time, and I think this is a, you know, a very common conversation of like what it takes to be a good therapist, but it's a lot harder even for the people who really believe and want to be acting this way. Like we all, we all step into that role of being like, I know what you should do. Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery. Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. All right. I'm excited to welcome my guest for today, Emmy Ferguson, um, social worker therapist, recently, um, level one trained. That's how we met. And, um, yeah, Emmy, thank you for, for doing this and for being here. What, what else should people know about who you are and how you got here? Hmm., Thanks so much for having me. It's nice to be here. Um. I guess something that feels important about my history is that I came to IFS through sort of a long personal journey., Starting off, I would say with being an instructor at Outward Bound and facilitating a lot of group processes based in restorative practices and nonviolent communication. And I think that really for many years I saw. The, in incredible power of that work, uh, in all sorts of different populations., As well as the work of doing that in the wilderness and being on an expedition that provided a lot of uncon contrived challenge for people to understand much more about what they're capable of than I think they ever really thought. So those kind of core foundations, I think, . As well as experience in facilitation and sort of a deep keel in learning over time that the less that I facilitate and the more that I can offer the space for people to have their own experience, the more powerful that experience is. So when I was ready to be, um, sort of out of that world after many years of going on month long expeditions and sort of needing to find a new context for that work, that's how I. Ended up in social work and IFS was the model that immediately called to me and was sort of the most in line with those core values that I had come to understand through my work as a facilitator over many years. So, mm-hmm. That's sort of the, the long and short of it. Yeah. Great. Say more about, , outward Bound. What, what is, what's the program? What's it all about? Yeah, so the base that I worked at was up in Northern Minnesota and Outward Bound is, , I would say like a leader in outdoor education, , as well as sort of social emotional. Learning., It does a lot with at least the base that, that I worked with,, does expeditions in the woods. Uh, the kind of bread and butter of what I was up to was month long expeditions with teenagers who often were having a. Some sort of difficulty in their lives, whether that's at school or mostly based in the family systems as well., Designed to work towards the end of a restorative conference with their families to, so to address whatever kind of harm had happened within the family system and, uh, you know, establish new communication and ways to move forward. So that program was really beautiful. It's called the Intercept Program. That was., Some of the most meaningful work I've, I've ever seen and done, and then in the winter we also and seen the most challenging work, so Oh, deeply. I really drew you to that because like there's, there's a lot easier paths to take in terms of helping people, you know, a lot of therapists, like myself included, you know, sit in our nice comfortable offices where people come in for 45 minutes and that's it. I don't have to like go the elements with them for one month. Yeah, maybe I should, maybe that'd be great for both of us. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's, it is incredible and I think I'm, I think I have a long history of being drawn to challenge, I would say., Yeah, because I've seen my own personal growth in that context so much. And so being able to, it's outbound starts at least the, you know, program for training interns starts where you go on an expedition yourself and you are a student, and it was one of the hardest things ever done. It was, I, I had never portaged a canoe before, which is, you know, 70 pounds on your shoulders. It's incredibly painful if you've never done it. It was in early spring, which in Minnesota is still winter. Like our, our socks were frozen every morning when we put them on. It was, it was brutal. It was very, very difficult. Yeah. And I remember going through that experience myself and the bonding and the understanding of my own strength. Um you know, experiencing that myself and realizing that that was something that I could help other people to see was just immediately like, oh, this is it. This is what I wanna be doing. And for a long time it was, and still is some of the most meaningful work I've ever been a part of in my life. Hmm. Yeah. What do you think it is about being challenged in that way? That is, I guess, therapeutic or creates. Growth. Yeah. Which is really what therapy is aiming to do. Right? Creating growth or allowing for growth. Creating conditions for growth, but not necessarily through like such overt challenging conditions. Yeah. Oh, there, I think there are so many elements on a course that really can do that. Yeah. Somebody at Outward Bound once said, um, that basically if people leave an Outward Bound course and have learned two things, it's there is more in you than you know, and you need other people. And those are such foundational pieces of what it means to be out there., I think canoeing, especially you, you literally need somebody else in that canoe in order to get your stuff from point A to point B. Portaging when you have a canoe on your shoulders, it's very scary and it's very much like you have a portage partner with you who is your support. So when it's too much for you, they come and, and help you. Mm-hmm. Like knowing that there's somebody else there that you need to rely on from day one, that's a stranger, that's just a random person that is now like kind of your lifeline.. It really does create this interdependence, like right from the start that that grows throughout the course. Yeah. So some of that interpersonal work is just like, it's so ripe in that context. Yeah. And then I think the challenges are really uncon contrived, you know, I mean, a lot of the kids that we take out there have never done anything that challenging before in their lives. Like many of them just have, you know, maybe they've done some sports and things like that, but. You know, I mean, going out into the wilderness, Minnesota's known for a intense amount of bugs. So it's like, it's very physically uncomfortable. The thunderstorms are very intense and loud and scary. There's just, there's so much that you're facing that you get through and you realize, oh, I never, I just didn't think that I could handle that, and I did. Yeah, and the more that you do that again and again. I think there's just an uncovering of this capacity that you have that I just, I saw so many people directly from the beginning to the end grow in their capacity to handle challenge in this really beautiful and again, really uncon, contrived way. It's just like organic in that setting. Yeah. The, the dependence on others is. Has the potential to be very,, emotionally corrective or healing for people, because a lot of times through our hurt, and especially like you're mentioning the family piece, , and I used to work in foster care system here in San Francisco and juvenile probation, so there's a lot of wounding around like a attachment, which is essentially the question of like. Will you be there for me when I need you the most? Whether it's like your 2-year-old falling down on the playground, the first thing they do is look up at their caregiver, right? It's like, are you there attuned? Like, are my feelings okay? Or are they too much for you? Or are you distracted or annoyed or irate, or whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm., So we learn and pick up burdens along the way of like, I need to be highly independent. Right. And even just like the culture of our, um, our country around individualism is just so like thick and you know, like insidious, right? Of like, I need to not only like carry all these burdens, I have to somehow heal them on my own, like in a vacuum somehow, or like in a corner where no one can watch me, you know, and see how much I'm actually hurting. Right. And in my case, like. You know, I am, I am a man. I work with a lot of men, and there's like even more layers of like isolation and shame around, like not being self-sufficient. Right?, Even the way we parent, right? Like, you know, I have a, , I, I have a five-year-old daughter and a lot of parenting is around like, you did it, you did it yourself. Like you can brush your teeth by yourself. You can. You know, wipe your own tears away. Right. There's like an incredible rush to like get them to be self-sufficient, which I understand. Like you wanna prepare mm-hmm. Your child for the rest of their life, but also there's like an overemphasis on independence, right? Rather than like a healthy interdependence. Mm-hmm. You know, and I've, I've, I, I've also like lived in countries like in Mexico that's more naturally a collectivist, you know, culture where everything just feels. Different. Like there's a sense that everyone is more in this together, you know? Than than here. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's beautifully said, and that is what's so powerful about experiences, I think with groups and with actually learning to work together because yeah, I do think that a lot of that independence ends up going all the way to the end of the scale where we don't actually know how to work through conflict with one another, how to be in community and that. That interpersonal discomfort that's a part of any real vulnerable relationship is not a sign to cut other people off or to like, you know, throw up your, your boundaries and your barriers. It's a sign to lean in and to learn how to like, have those difficult conversations.. So there's nothing like being in the woods with, you know, eight other people to, you don't have a choice. You're gonna be seeing those people and sleeping in a tent with them every day. Like you have to learn how to address that conflict when it comes up., Yeah, and it's, yeah, it's really important to know how to do so in a respectful way so that it can be actually an experience of becoming closer, which I think is also mind blowing for people that conflict can be. Connective if it's moved through, um mm-hmm. In a way that can transform that into connection. Mm-hmm. Hey, if you're a therapist, I want to help you deepen your client work, help them get better results without burning yourself out. You can do all this by learning to harness the power of IFS. So I want to tell you, we've got a free IFS resource library that you can download. Now, this is full of resources like my Quickstart Guide to IFS. The full IFS protocol, a bunch of demos of me doing IFS with real people and extra self-care practices for therapists. You can get all this for free in the link in the description, and I hope you enjoy. Yeah. I mean, there, there's something really powerful about a group, you know, like the forming and norming and, and coming together to eventually overcome something bigger than themselves. Right. Bigger than like the group, the sum of the group. Mm-hmm., So yeah, there, there must be. A lot of, yeah. Just richness in that., And, and I'm curious, I guess more like your own role in that, and you mentioned the nonviolent communication piece, which makes a lot of sense as to how that would mm-hmm. Pair well with this. But how do you help these kids, , come together? Yeah. Especially when it gets really hard or when there is a lot of conflict. Yeah, I mean, so much is setting up structure., I think there's, we kind of talk about structure and rapport as these two really important pieces of your role., For me, I think that setting up a solid structure where you really, I. Have super clear expectations. And so it's not about, it's not about punishment. It's not about I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna be mad at you. It's about, this is what's expected, this is how we talk to each other, and you get that to come from them, right? Instead of me coming in and saying, this is what you're allowed to say and what you're not allowed to say. Right? You have that conversation with people early on and you say, how do we wanna treat each other? This is our world. How do we, what are the rules that we wanna abide by so that we can respect each other? Mm-hmm. And people will come up with different things and that, you know, when that comes from them, and then later you can show them, Hey, you're not living in line with the things that you wanted to uphold. Here are the consequences of that. Rather than, you know, I'm, I'm gonna come down on you for it. It creates a totally different experience where they from their own expectations of themselves and each other can define what they want their culture to be. And you're just helping them to like, you're a mirror to them and showing them when they are and when they aren't living up to it. And you're setting expectations for what happens when that's not occurring.. And the idea on a course is actually that you as the instructor, kind of work yourself out of the job. So while you start at the beginning teaching everything, like they need to know everything from how to go to the bathroom, to like, how to set up a tent. They, you know, it's all new and you're gradually setting up, , a system where you can take steps back and they can take on more and more responsibility. There's always gonna be, you know, one step forward, two steps back, , and that sort of a thing, which is all a beautiful part of the learning process. But what eventually happens if you're setting them up well and they can really take on what it means to be actually communicating with each other through that nonviolent communication that you're teaching along the way., They are learning to resolve their own conflicts and give each other feedback and doing that process themselves so that you are actually just watching and you know you're gonna step in If something gets unsafe, you're always still there. But by the end, if that's, you know, if that's well set up, they are running their own circle processes, they are giving each other really vulnerable feedback and they are kind of their own growth mechanism at that point. Hmm. That must be really rewarding for you to see that type of growth and Oh, yeah. Self, yes. Like the, the, oh, it's incredible group. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can remember, uh, many different instances, but there was one where there were these two boys on the course that were just kind of at each other's throats a little bit the whole time. Towards the very end when they were really, you know, at the point where they were doing it on their own. I was like watching them set up a tent together and you could see the tension rise. And one of 'em, you know, I don't know what happened, but they were, you know, getting snappy with each other and they both just like looked at each other and were like, okay, we need to give each other feedback. And like, just went through this, like really beautiful back and forth. Then we're like, all right, you good, bro? All right, yeah, let's get back to it. You know? And yeah, it's just like. That is incredible to have two teenage boys be able to pause before getting into conflict and say, Hey, I need you to understand why I'm frustrated right now. This is what I need from you. And to be able to just move forward. So, yeah. Well, I, I would imagine that's also where a lot of the nonviolent communication stuff is. So, you know, pivotal to, to those moments and those skills. Right. Um, 'cause so much of our conflict is around not being, not feeling heard or understood. Even if we still don't agree about like the thing or what to do, right? You think of like two people or a you, you know, a your romantic partner, whatever. Like a lot of times it's less about the thing itself and more about people feeling disregarded, invisible, less than mm-hmm. Um, they're, they're helpless parts getting, getting activated. So yeah. Well, absolutely, and I think that true nonviolent communication is. Deeply vulnerable work, right? Because you do have to move from this place of you are wrong and I need you to understand why. Or like you're doing something hurtful or bad. Yeah. To a place of like, what does that, what does that bring up in me? Like, what's coming alive in me when that happens? Which I do think is a, it's a form of checking in. It's, you know, very IFS, it's very symbiotic with IFS of. Actually kind of unblending from that story of like, you are hurting me to what is my hurt? Like, where does this come from? And how can I actually communicate with you in a way that asks for what I need rather than condemns you for what you're doing wrong? Yeah., And then from the listener too, like why you're doing something wrong, bad, thoughtless, whatever, judgment I. To hear that in a way that is purely from a needs perspective, it takes away that, you know, that part within the person who's receiving that feedback that is not trying necessarily to be mean, is just trying to protect, you know, me like hearing that that is. Impacting somebody is very different from having that kind of come in at them as a judgment because Yeah, they are also just trying to meet their own needs. Yeah. Well, and I, I think there's also this piece of like, . Can I get my needs met here? Mm-hmm. I was talking with an adult's client recently and um, when, when this client has conflict with her boss, things get really fuzzy and it's like, why aren't you caring for me in the way that I need to be cared for? And then it feels extremely high stakes all of a sudden, and we, we call it. Feeling high stakes, right? It feels like more than just this like boss and employee interaction. Um, and again, it's this piece of like, why aren't you seeing me? Or why are you hurting me? Or why are you mm-hmm. You know, um, denying my time off request. Right. And it feels so much bigger than the thing, right? Yeah., So some of that is like also about our expectations, right? That there's, there's a part that says like, this person should meet my needs or care for me, like the mother. I never had. And that's a lot to put on someone else. Right? Right. Cause I also bring, like, I think the nonviolent communication piece is wonderful, pairs really well with IFS. I also like bring a lot of serenity prayer energy into a lot of what I do, which is like you may speak, uh, to what's coming up for you. You might do that, , clearly and kindly, you might name parts of you that are, um, up around this and you also may need to practice ahead of time a somewhat of a detachment from how this conversation goes or if the person's gonna do exactly what you want or not. Mm-hmm. Right., What would it be like if they still said. I don't, the answer's still no, right? Like, yeah, you're not getting the time off. Or they gaslight and they go, I don't know why you're making such a big deal out of this, right? Like, you're overreacting or don't be ridiculous, or whatever it is. And like, this is where even more wounding happens, right? Because it's like, I am being vulnerable. Im bringing myself to you. I'm sharing my true feelings and I'm not being met there. And then people that, that, you know, they have parts that go, see, this is why we don't take risks. This is why we don't. You know, actually make bids for real connection and intimacy. Right? This is why it doesn't work. Goes like this, this is why it doesn't work. Right? And then they come tell me, they're like, John, that was a terrible idea. You know, I should never Yeah. Speak for my actual needs and feelings. Yeah. No, that's, I mean, I think I, I saw that all the time, right? It's you, you hope that this really intentional effort that you're putting into this communication will lead to a result. But the thing is like, that's what you know, and I would tell students that all the time, like this is communication. This is not a guarantee of how somebody will behave. Yeah. All you ever have control over is how you meet them and how you behave and how you communicate. And then you get to choose after that how you know, how you respond. And if that person continues to. Respond in a hurtful way, then, you know, that's information that you have about yeah, what you wanna do, but that doesn't mean that, you know. Yeah. It's, it's all you can do is communicate respectfully and yeah, that's your role, and the rest is up to them. That doesn't mean you're gonna change who they are. Well, then you're, then you're truly free to whatever happens next or to, mm-hmm. Being, uh, in charge of your own thoughts and feelings and mm-hmm. Behaviors and choices. Right. And, you know Yeah. Like in the, on the show we talk about trauma, we talk about IFS, and in trauma there's a loss of choice and agency. Mm-hmm. And so when we feel that, again, it's very activating for our parts, right. There's an injustice happening or something's happening to me and I can't do anything about it. And that loss of agency is. Really damaging and has many ripples, right? So again, it might be, I'm taking a risk of coming in and sharing, , my truth about this situation or about this interaction we had, knowing that it may or may not go the way I want it to, right? Knowing that the person in front of me may be only 10% open to hearing what I'm actually sing, right? I could walk away from that feeling all sorts of different things, and maybe that would be okay. I can make a behavior request, right? This piece of nonviolent communication, and they may or may not meet it. And if that's the case, then what's my next fork in the road? Right. You know, do I make another request? Do I tell somebody, do I go get Emmy? Like, I don't, I don't know. Right., Do I sit with that? Right? Like that's, it's difficult, right? When people aren't doing what I am asking them to do, even when I ask nicely. Yeah. Well, and that's so important to set up too, is like, what is your choice in that situation, right? Your choice is how you communicate and your choice is how you respond afterward., Your choice is never how that person is going to respond. As much as we all wish that, that if we just did it right, we could change that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, I, I am curious more about your journey with IFS and, you know, when it started, how you got interested in the model, and then how it has, , taken more of a place in your life and work over the years. Yeah, yeah. Well, as I said, I kind of, after about seven years of working at Upward Bound, I loved the, the work itself, but was looking for a way to do something similar and powerful without necessarily having to pause my life for a month at a time.. So I started to think about therapy because it really, a lot of the work there, even though it's not called therapy and we can't claim it as therapy, it's, it is deeply therapeutic work., And so that was, that was what I loved about it. And so I started looking into, um, you know, various forms of getting to. Therapy and, , I hadn't done therapy in a long time myself, so I, I thought that would be a good first step is like kind of get back in and see how it is as a client and kind of consider what it would be like on the other side. And in my small town there were only a couple therapists and one happened to be an IFS therapist and I had heard. A little bit about IFS and was interested in it., The ideas around it were, you know, very in tune with what I believe about, you know, transformation and personal work. So I worked with her for a little while and it was an interesting experience because I would say if we hadn't been doing IFSI don't think I would've connected with her very much.. You know, she was lovely, but I didn't really feel like she had a ton of insight to offer or like, wasn't really pushing me forward much versus just reflecting., And it was really the model that was powerful for me, like her knowledge of the model and ability to, to walk with me through it and the amount of work that I was able to do in my own system, , was just immediately super clear of, you know, this is. Incredibly powerful work., So that was, I think, you know, a pretty good tone set for my entry into the world and was very much like, oh, I'm working towards becoming an IFS therapist. I'm not, you know, like I know what model like this is, this is the piece that is, out of all the models I've heard of, like resonates the most with what I, what I know to be true about personal transformation.. So I, yeah, I went into school knowing that, and I, right from the very start was like putting my name into the IFS lottery. Um, so yeah, a couple years of doing that, and then actually right after I graduated, I got into a training., And that's, you know, it was perfect timing because I just ended school and actually kind of had time and capacity to really dive into it.. And so that I think, yeah, once again, just deepened the work and continues to be some of the most personal, personally powerful work that I've done. Yeah. Um, so I'm actually just really getting started with . You know, doing that with clients. Um, but yeah, that's kind of how I landed where I'm today. Yeah. How, how do you feel, . Having been through the, the official institute training now, , given that at least what I could see, like in our practice groups, you already seem to have a pretty, a very solid command of the model. Hmm. Well, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I, I appreciate hearing that. I don't know, I mean, I think the, the training really was what solidified that for me. I've. I've definitely, I think as a participant there's no better way to learn the model, you know, than actually really going through it, which is why that training is so great, right? They have you go through it yourself and facilitate it in other people. Um, but I think so much of the facilitation that I've done in the past, like truly, uh, truly deep group facilitation is so similar to this work like. I think that self energy is something that I learned over the years at Outward Bound. I never had that word for it, but to be able to hold your own in a group of people that is incredibly stressed and worked up and mad at each other and to hold that process. It's the same thing as doing that with somebody in their own internal world. So I don't think I could have possibly had better training than being a group facilitator of like teenagers with huge emotions all the time. Yeah. And being able to find my own self within that., So that part feels very intuitive, so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I would recommend it to anybody, honestly. Yeah. A piece that I both love and also see a lot of therapists struggle with when they come to the model is like sometimes when you go into a client system, oh my gosh, there's two or three or four or seven parts. All of a sudden right here at the forefront, and they're all talking to me and they have all got very strong feelings about what should be done and how to do it right. And why their way is the best, right? And sometimes the therapist can. Be very overwhelmed by that, the same way they would be if they walked into a group. Right., And that type of disagreement, conflict, tension is all there, right? Um, and sometimes the therapist can be like, wow, I don't know, and I can't keep track of all the parts and I gotta write, you know, is this one a, you know, a firefighter? And it's like, okay, slow down. You know, and again, for me it's this piece of like, what does it feel like? To not be heard. What does it feel like to be heard? What if one at a time, you know, these parts could be heard today? And what if that's all we did? Would that be okay? Or what if, you know, we were able to hear from just two of the parts and support the others in just hearing the two that are speaking right now. Right? Yeah. Like, that might be all we do, right? And I'm, uh, yeah, I, I enjoy that type of. facilitation., You know, I've had experience with that type of work in my own background. I'm kind of connecting that now with uh . For 20 some years I've worked with a nonprofit called Appalachia Service Project, where we go into rural parts of Appalachia and um, do emergency home repair. And we're using volunteer labor to do this. So it can be really intense situations, exposures to extreme poverty like you wouldn't believe. People don't even know this level of poverty exists in this country, and it does. And so, , often working with like limited resources, budget materials. Sometimes dangerous situations, intense climates, like to your point. There's a lot of pieces that interpersonal pieces that come up around like how to help this person. And there's often very intense situations we're walking into families that dire, that need dire help, you know? So, um. Anyway, getting somewhat off topic, but Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, it is, it's all, I think it's all related to how do you find self in a situation that feels really overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. And the more that you have practice with that in life, you know, it's like you can't go somewhere that you've, you haven't been with a client. If you aren't comfortable with that inner turmoil or, you know, turmoil around you. They're gonna sense that and feel that. And no, we all might get that little, like rumble in our stomach when, when that comes up. But it's about knowing how to take care of that within ourselves before kind of charging ahead with a, with our plan or our agenda. And really being comfortable with this might be uncomfortable. This might be, you know, a little bit. Messy and Yeah. And we can handle that, you know? Yeah. Well that, that's it in a nutshell is, um, you know, of course the way that I learned it in graduate school before anyone was really talking about IFS, the way they are now is, , terms like ego strength. Right? And ego strength is basically like, I can do hard things, you know? And that's, that's a, that's a courage and a confidence piece of self energy., I can, I can do hard things, right? Even when it feels scary., I can navigate, um, intense situations and ambiguity and, , I can be a problem solver and I can be a peacemaker. I need to be like, I have flexibility and, , all of these pieces, right? And like embodying those and something that helps for me a lot as a practitioner. Especially in working with trauma and, a lot of cases, complex trauma. We've even worked with some DID is um. Letting go of the wheel and trusting that I don't always know what's happening here or what's gonna happen next, or how this session will go, or if client's gonna get way worse before they get better, or if they'll ever get better. And these are the questions a lot of times that, you know, the practitioners that join. My group practice where I do a lot of teaching and mentoring, they, they, we want to know, right? And it's scary when the clients are like getting worse or they're cutting now or they're whatever, right?, And there's a sense of like, I need to know what's needs to happen next, or I need to bring more order to this, or maybe we need to change our approach, right? And we start getting like, uh, we start scrambling, you know, and that has a certain energy to it. And the person in front of you can sense that energy too, of like, oh, this person's really finding me to be too much. You know? Right. Well, and I think that really speaks to like courage is not knowing exactly what to do in every moment. Courage is being able to know that you can handle and hold, like the discomfort and the not knowing and trust that you'll be able to get through it. And I think that that. That can be really hard, especially when you're learning a new model and you, you know, it also goes along with trust in the model because the more that you can trust that something can bring you through an experience like that, the more that those experiences of being in that unknown and being in that like gray area, don't feel like the end of the world or like you're ruining it. It's just, it's something that you trust that. Is allowed to be a part of the process. Well, and, and that people's systems, uh, are inherently self-correcting. Self-governing. With some support. Right. It's like all these players at the table, they, they actually want the same thing. They just can't see that. They may have even forgotten, oh, you guys are actually on the same team. Right. You're actually all trying to get that C canoe across the river or whatever. Yeah. Like you're all worried about having food tonight or Right. So who's gonna start the fire or whatever. Yeah. You guys really want to make sure we're like, we're okay. Right. We're comfortable tonight. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. Right? Can you just see. That you all want the same thing. Oh, can you remember? You're all on the same team. Oh yeah. Same team.. Okay. Yeah. So then all of a sudden, like the, the person or the part in front of me is a little bit less the enemy. Yeah. Even though I still don't agree with their approach. Yeah. It's like, Hey, we gotta stop the cutting or the binging or the drinking or the whatever. And the part's like, yes. And it's the only thing that I know that's working right When the shame gets triggered or when mom yells at us, or when my boss, you know, raises their voice with me and my boss's mom all of a sudden, or whatever it is, right? So it's like until I trust that that's gonna go better, I'm gonna keep doing my way. Yeah. Well, and it takes so much, I mean, it does take so much trust to be able to enter into a situation like that without an agenda of saying, I want you to stop this. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like it's, that does take an incredible amount of effort on everybody's part to be able to understand that it really, it really matters to allow some space for there to be an experience of that part that they need to share before you come in with a plan or an agenda. Well, it usually backfires, right? And like, you know, I like to pull on a lot of Gs. Psych 1 0 1. Ideas in my work, like reactance theory, right? So they, you know, they did this study that, um, you have a little patch of grass and people walk by it. And when you have a sign that says, absolutely do not step on the grass, people are statistically more likely to step on it, right? Mm-hmm. Good. Because my freedom has been threatened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Again, if it's like, I need you to stop drinking. And in my opinion, this is also why interventions don't really work., And if anything, you might get some managers to get on board and go, okay, we can at least string together like 10, 20, 30 days of sobriety or whatever, or of not cutting or whatever. But you're kinda white knuckling, you know your way through it. You're like a white knuckle drunk, right? Because the healing doesn't really happen. The wounding is still there driving the whole thing. Right. And this part doesn't actually fully trust in self and in the leadership of self. Um, so they're still doing what they need to do to, to protect the wound, you know, , like real healing hasn't, hasn't happened yet., And it also doesn't feel good when someone comes in, tells me what to do, right? Or to stop doing that thing, you know, it's like I'm, I'm the only one. I'm the one keeping the lights on around here. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and it's like that's true of any like group process too. Like oftentimes you would see people go into the group process and say, you're the problem. Right. There's one scapegoat, right. Which happens internally too. And I mean that was such a constant reminder in my facilitation was if we're going into this and, and people in this group think that one person is the problem. I'm gonna remind you that that is never the case and we all have something to own about, like how we're contributing to this situation. Yeah. And if we can come in and actually hear from everybody and give people a space to be heard. Yeah. Without that agenda of changing that one, that one problem. Um. There is a collective wisdom that can come about that understands so much more than you, even if you think you know how to like move forward and what everybody needs. It's the more that you do that process, the more that you realize that you don't know they know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and so much of being a leader,. Literally, and also internally, you know, with self-leadership is not coming in and saying, I know the answers to everything all the time. You gotta listen to me, right? Because if Emmy is right and says, let's go left at this fork in the river, or whatever. And it ends up being horrible, right? Then it's like, you know what? What the hell if you're correct? It's like, well, Emmy is like, you know, the only one who knows. Right. The only one who's like smart and strong and experienced or whatever. So, um, yeah, that, that trust that like people and parts have goodness in them and have their own wisdom, that is infinite and . Readily available if we can help them tap into that., And we have to trust that for our clients too, right? Even though we've got parts and, you know, often managers that come in and want to kind of manage for the client, right? Or okay, you know, can we do 10 days of sobriety or 10 days of like going to the gym or whatever it is, and we get some kind of manager on manager action going on. But, um, you know, true, true, like leadership is really trusting that people. Have what it takes and can find their way. With the right conditions and support and guidance, you know, and that it's a, it's a different stance, you know? Um. There's a stance that a lot of therapists take, I think inadvertently of like, you can't do it. Right? Right. You are weak or helpless or whatever. Or you need to keep coming back to therapy or else your life's gonna fall apart, you know? Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't realize, like it's, it's a very, it can be a really subconscious thing on the part of a therapist and I, I think that even though. Most therapists would probably say that this is what they believe, that they wanna empower the client. Yeah. Right. That like, I, I do think that a lot of people fundamentally believe and wanna be doing this and there are parts of ourselves that we are not always aware of that are reinforcing this idea of, you need my advice, you need my wisdom, you need my insight.. You can't make your own mistakes. Like you won't Yeah. Be okay. And that, you know, we, it's, we talk about it all the time and I think this is a, you know, a very common conversation of like what it takes to be a good therapist, but it's a lot harder even for the people who really believe and want to be. Acting this way. Like we all, we all step into that role of being like, I know what you should do. Well, it feels good to be needed and wanted, right? And, um, it, it's also how a lot of us got here in the first place as therapists is from our own wounding, right. Of being wanted and needed, or being the one that could soothe or mm-hmm. Mediate or whatever. But from a burdened place, you know? Mm-hmm. And that's fine if that's the thing and the dynamic that brought you. Here to the dance, but it doesn't have to be the thing that guides like the next 30 years of your clinical work, of your, your healing work, you know?, So this is a weird paradox of like, and I talk to my clinicians about this. Like, I, I don't need you to get better. I don't have an attachment. Like if you get worse, I will still be okay while also being connected to a whole lot of compassion over. The fact that you're getting worse or you're relapsing, or whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm. My hope and in my heart, I hope that people get to where they're going and that they live the best life they can and that they find healing, right? Whether that's finding healing now and getting clean or whatever, I keep using the addiction example, just whatever. But whether it's that or not, whether it's like, I have parts that really wanna see you stay together with your partner or parts that are like, you guys should get a divorce. You know? Um, like that's, that's in there, right? Yeah. But a lot of that is, is my stuff, right? And my parts that have hopes and fears about what's happening in front of me versus if I can really be as much in my self energy as possible. Again, it's more of this sense of like, . I can be okay with whatever direction you go. My hope is always that you get to where you're going, whatever that means for you. It's not up to me to decide what that that means for you. Right. Um, you know, it's like, um, this guy, Terry Real talks about it as like a spiritual detachment from a client's outcome and he does a lot of couple's work and whatever. So, , I, I talk to my clinicians a lot about that and it can feel weird and counterintuitive 'cause they're just so bought into their client's outcomes. Client gets better. Great. I'm a great therapist. Client gets worse. What the hell? I'm a terrible therapist, right? I need to go back to the drawing board. I need more training, so I need to like read more books. Whatever it is, right? So, yeah. Well, it is, it's really, it's profound work and it's, you know, so much easier said than done to really understand that your job is the process, not the outcome. And there's only so much. Yeah. There's only so much you can hold in terms of like, it's, it's their life. And when you have a deep respect for somebody's autonomy and for somebody's inner wisdom. Yeah. As long as you can keep reminding yourself of that, that is the path, you know? Yeah. Um, but it's definitely hard to remember when somebody looks and feels lost to not just wanna take, you know, take their hand and show them the way Yeah. Or the way you think. It bring, it brings up a lot for us. Right. Parts that have witnessed, um, helplessness and hopelessness before it's really activating. Right. Again, seeing a client get way worse Right before your eyes is, can be very activating. Yeah. Right. Well, especially if we haven't gone to those places within ourselves and if we don't have a, a comfort and a, an empathy for. Those parts that are really scared of that and that don't wanna experience that. If, if that feels just as scary for us as it does for them, then we're gonna be on their train, you know? Yep. Yeah, that's extremely well said. We're going to be veering away from that. Right. That, that hurt 'cause it's too much for our, our systems and we haven't gone there, you know? Um, yeah. I'm a big proponent for this. You know, Irvin Yala puts it as like, we can't take clients further than we, we've gone ourselves. Right. I'm a big believer in that. And, uh, you'll see those limits, those walls, you know, that therapists are up against, um, and clients that are wanting and like ready and needing to go. Deeper and further., And so there you are, your clients are showing you where your own work to be done is, right? They're showing you your trailheads and your unfinished business. So that's the, the pain and agony and thrill of this job is like every day you're probably gonna be shown some new trailhead. You know, in my case, as a parent, it's like the ultimate. Source of trailheads every single day. Right. Well, I'm sure trying to raise a little person. Right. And her big feelings and curiosities and questions and, um, defiance, you know what, whatever it is, like, it, it's, it's a constant like, uh. Opportunity to either like shut down or grow basically, you know? It's like life itself. But if we have a sense of like, this shouldn't be happening to me, this shouldn't be hard. Right. Or like, people on this team are carrying this canoe should like, they should do it my way. Like it, everything's gonna feel like friction, it's gonna feel like a struggle. It's gonna feel like everyone's against me. Right. Like, if people would just do XI would be happy. Right? If my boss would just do x, I would be. Happy and love my job. It's like, okay, you've just handed your entire sense of autonomy into like, put it in someone else's lap. Right. Well, and it's, it's also, you're really speaking to this mindset of what it feels like to go through challenge, right? Like are you seeing that challenge as something that is , being done to you to break you down, to push you past your limits, or are you seeing it as an opportunity, as a learning, as a way to grow and become stronger and more aware? Because that, I think that shift is also life changing, right? Yeah. Because you can become. You can become really bitter and really resentful of other people and all of the things that are breaking you down. Yeah. Or you can, you can truly embrace this like radical idea that every person who's challenging you is giving you a gift of understanding. Yeah. An opportunity. Yeah. And being a mirror. Yeah. You know? Yeah. For the work that you have. Yeah. To do, uh, yeah. Locus of control, right? And, and in again, this piece with trauma is at some point, whether it was last week or three decades ago, um, you were out of control and you were small and more helpless. And when mom yelled at you. Or whatever had drank too much and was violent toward you, you had to just take it right, or be small or still give mom a hug, right? Right. So that you could get food in shelter, um, you're not there anymore. So just notice that you're not back there in that house or in that bedroom, or in that kitchen, at that kitchen table anymore. Can you just notice that for a second? Like you're actually an adult here sitting in your room or your office or your kitchen.. And what's it like to be here now with some more choice?. Where you don't have to shapeshift into to that in order to make sure you like, get dinner tonight. That's profound. Right? So just like. You know, kind of implicitly updating people's systems somehow. Some, sometimes in that way, right, of showing them that it makes a lot of sense why parts think you're still back there. They just don't know. They haven't been updated, right? They haven't looked around and going, oh my gosh, that was 30 years ago and I actually am, you know, in my own home now. Right? And there's not someone banging down the door, you know, or whatever, or coming in drunk or whatever it might be. So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Those reminders of the choices we have now. Yeah. Um, well, Emmy, we're just about at time. You know, one of my favorite things about this, uh, this experience for me and interviewing people, , and I'd only known you briefly through Yeah. Training, just some moments, but I had a feeling that we might have, uh, an interesting conversation, uh, 'cause of your background. And again, like your, your understanding of the model seemed quite deep. Um. So, yeah, I just love seeing where it takes us. Right. And even this piece of like your background and working in that program and, um, just giving new. Ideas about how to think about all this and what is healing and growth and change and the many ways we can get there, and the many venues in which we can get there, like being in the middle of the woods for 30 days. Uh, so I, I love that. And you've got some really interesting perspectives on, on all this. So yeah. Thank you for being here. Anything else you wanna add that was not said, or if you want to let people know how they could like learn more about you, whatever works. Sure. Um. I just wanna say thank you for having me. This was really a lovely conversation and I don't know. I mean, I think both of us could probably, I mean, you do talk about if FS all the time for hours, so I'm sure there's so many more things I could say, but for now it's just been, yeah, it's been lovely to explore some of the different ways that it can exist in various parts of life, whether it's necessarily called IFS or just, you know, it is interwoven in so many different. Beliefs and, and things that are already happening, which I think is also for me, always affirming when something I'm learning shows up in all these different parts of my life, or it shows up in Buddhism, it shows up in, you know, experiential education facilitation. So that to me is, is such a beautiful experience of learning when, when it is all around us all the time if we can tune into it. So yeah, I've appreciated just getting to explore that a little bit with you today. Um. In terms of where to reach me, I just moved to Bellingham, so I'll be practicing locally here, , pretty shortly, , within the next month or so. So, not quite yet, but if you look me up by my name in Bellingham, I should be around if you're interested in working with me. Nice., Thanks again for, um, for, uh, being here in me and um, yeah, keep in touch. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at John Clark Therapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at John Clark therapy.com. See you next time.