Going Inside: Healing Trauma from the Inside Out

Integrating IFS & EMDR for Trauma Recovery with Daphne Fatter

• John Clarke, LPCC

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In this insightful episode of Going Inside, John Clarke sits down with Dr. Daphne Fatter to explore how Internal Family Systems (IFS) and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) can be integrated for powerful trauma recovery work. Dr. Fatter shares her step-by-step approach to blending these models, offering practical tips for clinicians working with complex trauma. From building client readiness to navigating the nuances of protector parts and exiles, this conversation is packed with concrete strategies, clinical wisdom, and encouragement for therapists ready to deepen their practice.

3 Key Takeaways:

👉 Why IFS and EMDR complement each other so well in treating complex trauma.
👉 How to determine client readiness for EMDR and gain system-wide consent.
👉 Practical ways to use parts mapping, befriending, and stabilization tools before reprocessing.

Guest:
Dr. Daphne Fatter is a licensed psychologist, consultant, author, and international speaker dedicated to providing education on integrative trauma-informed therapies. She is certified in IFS and is an Approved IFS Clinical Consultant. She is also certified in EMDR and is an EMDRIA Approved EMDR Consultant. As a certified ancestral healing practitioner, she also works with intergenerational and historical trauma.

Connect with Dr. Daphne Fatter:
Website: https://www.daphnefatterphd.com

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So, um, I do think there's a place for coping skills within IFS and how to integrate that, but I, when I bring it in, I'm thinking very intentionally, how, how does this landing for this target part? If we bring in a coping skill, if we bring in a resource, um, for that part, we wanna make sure that helps self to part connection. Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery. Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at JohnClarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Uh, Dr. Daphne Fatter is a licensed psychologist, consultant, author, and international speaker dedicated to providing education on integrative trauma-informed therapies. She's a, she's certified in IFS and A and an approved IFS clinical consultant, also certified in EMDR and an MDR approved EMDR consultant as a certified ancestral healing practitioner. She also works with intergenerational and historical trauma. Daphne, thanks for coming back. How have you been since I last saw you on this show? Yeah, I've been doing well. How have you been? Good. Um, biggest thing in my world. We welcomed our second child a few weeks ago, so I'm in the of that still. Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah. That's so exciting. Thank you. Yeah, this is my first full week back, so we're seeing how that goes and getting to, , getting my 5-year-old to school on time is, uh. A challenge in itself with like two kids all of a sudden. So it's, I totally hear you. So kindness and softness to your whole system, all your parts, your parenting parts, your sleep deprived parts and system. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Um, so I, I know that you have a new book, uh, on the horizon coming out in January. Presale is available now. We'll put a link to that, but, , yeah, tell me how, um, this book came to be. Sure. So I had the opportunity first to write,, a book chapter, um, in, uh, Jenna Mema. She was the editor of the,, integration oriented book., And really this full book is a step-by-step guide to guide to working with complex trauma and really bringing in that integration approach, um, to integrating EMDR with IFS., So it's very practical. It has handouts and worksheets and scripts and all the things just to really try to make it a smooth process for clinicians. Hmm, great. So yeah, this is building off of, , a lot of work that you've done on the integration of the two. And, , I see so much more out there, uh, around the integration of the two and a lot of therapists pairing EMDR and IFS together. So, yeah. What are your thoughts around,. That trend and, and a lot more clinicians doing this work. Yeah, I mean, I am excited about that trend because I do feel like clinically speaking, particularly complex trauma treatment. I do think that's a trend across the board in our field of integration, integrating models and IFS is such a wonderful model to integrate. You know, with other models, because it's so flexible, it's so attuned, it's so consent oriented, , that it's, it's wonderful to integrate with other models. So, yeah, I'm excited about that trend. Yeah. Um how has your clinical work informed this, this book and your, , ideas around integration? Sure. So I was trained in EMDR long before I became trained in IFS. So, like many people who were trained in EMDR first when I took my IFS training and even knew about IFS, um, you know, I was thinking in terms of yeah, these two models integrate so well. It was impossible for me not to see the integration opportunities and really in terms of my clinical experience, . There really. Um. I have not received really a lot of training or guidance around how to integrate these two models. So it's really been predominantly for my own clinical experience, , particularly with complex trauma treatment. And, , I think the wonderful thing about integrating these two models is that it's not one size fits all. You have a lot of flexibility, um, with when to bring in more EMDR. Reprocessing, uh, when to really start more with an IFS lens with a client. And so it's just really trying to tailor treatment for clients. Yeah. Um, what advice would you give to clinicians around. That integration or that how, how to kind of create that custom blend of the two approaches? Yeah, I think the biggest thing is feeling confident in both models is important. Um, and I mean, without a doubt definitely being sort of formally trained in EMDR. Um, 'cause it can do harm if you're not trained. Right. Um, IFS is more flexible in terms of,. How much to integrate IFS into EMDR. But what I would say to clinicians is trust your gut. Um, if quite often when I'm providing consultation, say with an EMDR therapist per providing predominantly,, EMDR, they'll, they'll say like, oh gosh, I have this gut, this client is just not ready for EMDR. They need more, I don't know what to do. And it's like, that's the time to. Weave in IFS and also sit with any parts in your own system that come up around not knowing what to do., And then with IFS clinicians that are predominantly using IFS as their modality, oftentimes I will hear from, I more predominantly IFS clinicians. Wow. I feel like this client needs more, they need more to support stabilization, they need more, or when they're, , you know, moving to befriending with exiles. They're getting so blended with multiple exiles and they don't, you know, they're getting stuck in how to guide the client and it's like, oh, that's a great opportunity to bring in EMDR. Mm. Yeah. Making that intentional choice, uh, in treatment, uh, as treatment's already unfolding is, , a, a skill in, in and of itself. In my experience, when we learn. A new model., The temptation is like just to focus on that one alone., Because it can be a lot to wrap your head around like, oh, I'm working in this way, or I'm doing EMDR, and I, I, I want to know where I am in the protocol, right? Um, not to mention, you know, for a lot of clinicians, uh, in my experience with working with EMDR, it, it's the first time working with a protocol for a lot of folks. So they can get very singularly focused on like, where am I? Or I don't wanna skip a step, right? Yes. Um, even at risk of like, uh. Becoming less attuned to the person sitting there, right there in front of them. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. That can happen too. I mean, I think it's, from an integrationist lens, it's important not to be completely siloed, , you know, into one, one way or the other, but how to actually, um, where the intersections are between the models. Yeah. Yeah. As therapists, we hold space for so many. But who's holding space for us? If you're craving deeper healing and more powerful tools for your clients, I wanna invite you to my free webinar on Internal Family Systems Therapy. IFS changed my life and the way I practice. It helped me move through burnout, reconnect with my authentic self, and show up more fully for my clients and for myself. In this webinar, I'm gonna walk you through what IFS is and why it works. A simple tool that you can use right away and how to bring this work into your practice, even if you're just beginning. This is for therapists ready to go deeper. Join us now with the link in the description. We, we, um, so my group practice in San Francisco, it's teaching practice. Completely focused on trauma and everyone is, um, trained in EMDR at a minimum. Many are often trained in IFS SAC experiencing and working as integratively as possible. But, , from a practicality standpoint, a lot of clients, they learn about EMDR and that's what brings them to us. And they go, I want EMDR, or I've tried traditional talk therapy. It hasn't worked. For his traumatic memories. So I heard about this EMDR thing, and they have a lot of enthusiasm for EMDR.. Um, which can also mean a bit of a, um, uh, an agenda, so to speak, of like, I'm, I'm here to do this thing. And get to it as quickly as possible. So how do you do that dance with people that are, . Yeah, like, like very much wanting to get started with the EMDR Sure. I mean, I, I think explaining that IFS is weaved into the EMDR phases. So, for example, in phase., Even in phase one or phase two, particularly phase two where we're doing an EMDR resource development, which essentially is coping skills, supporting stabilization, we can bring in parts mapping, we can bring in as a way and we can do befriending. We wanna ideally befriend protectors, and that's done experientially. Um, so that. Through that experiential practice of IFS, they are feeling like, oh, I'm doing something., You know, wait, I'm actually getting something from this. Um, with the psychoeducation that it's helping prepare their, their system and their brain for doing the trauma reprocessing. So I, I mean, I think with a lot of respect to those, the client's protectors, any of which have an agenda around being ready., And I think readiness in terms of doing EMDR is really, really important to, um, you know, to assess. And I think that seeing how much access the client has to self knowing that it's okay if the client doesn't have that much access, that's one of the benefits of EMDR, but we still wanna ideally try to get consent of protectors. Before we transition. Yeah. In, in my experience sometimes, , we don't quite know how the EMDR is gonna go, or the re reprocessing, uh, piece of E MDR is gonna go until we kind of get there. Put a toe in the water, right? Yes. Um, and sometimes we realize, oh, the client is actually more resourced. Then they thought, or we thought, right? And kind of proceed. Other times , you put a toe in the water and uh, it doesn't go as well, right? Has an adverse reaction, so, yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's true. I think in my experience, integrating IFS is so wonderful because that's another way to dip a toe in a water, because I've had many clients who. Um, have really hardworking protector parts that that can have learned how to look Okay. Quote unquote, even though externally, even though their, their system is really dysregulated internally, um, that, uh. May sort of accidentally get to EMDR reprocessing too soon. Um, and so parts mapping, doing some experiential, you know, insight work, insight IFS work with the client's parts can also help us know. Okay. How does the system respond? To being befriended, to even being named with the therapist that can feel very vulnerable, you know, being seen and named. And also, um, you know, how does the, how does the client feel towards that part? I mean, I think all those pieces can help a clinician better determine the, the, the client's readiness for EMDR. Um, I mean, I've, I've had several times where even after doing parts mapping or. A little bit of initial befriending, there'll be backlash in the system, you know, from that. And that's an indicator of like, okay, there's, there's more parts we need to get to know and befriend and get their consent before we transition to reprocessing an EMDR. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I, I think I saw this on Instagram the other day. It might have been David, uh, ti or someone, uh, because I know he's. Uh, wrote a book as well, or put yeah, put together a book on IFS and EMDR, uh, around , doing e mdr r with various parts, both exiles and protectors. Uh, what are your thoughts about that? Mm-hmm. That's one way to do it. I, I generally, um, don't do it that way, but you have that option. I mean, that's the thing. There's not, um. One, only one way to do it with this integration. So that's really exciting., I think there's lots of opportunities through befriending through, um, you know, if you're working with a protector that, um, you can bring in some bilateral stimulation without it being reprocessing. Um, I think that you can also, I mean. You, the important thing is consent of the system. Um, right. Just to honor that with IFS as well as with EMDR. But yeah, I mean, I think that's a great, uh, possible intervention. Yeah. For the integration. Mm-hmm. Um, this is kind of an aside, but what, what are your thoughts on, uh, like the using BLS for various. Things like, so for instance, there's this company, a Dharma doctor who makes these wireless tabs. Have you seen these? I think so. Is that where they like, they're like things you put on like, almost like a bracelet kind of. They they don't go in your wrist? Actually, uh, I have 'em right here. They look like this. This is not an app. Okay. They just, they, they sent me these, but you hold these little, uh, tabs and they're like meditation stones. Um, but they have like a whole library of. Meditations, uh, mindfulness meditations like that, that you can kind of pair with BLS um, what do you think about using BLS in, in those types of ways, like in non EMDR settings? I think it's great. I think it's wonderful. I mean, I, and I think the, um, I. And, and I want, I, we might have talked about this last time I came on, but you know, I, I approach BLS in two different ways. So there's more the butterfly hug or the BLS, which is slow bilateral stimulation. And that can be integrated more for helping the client down-regulate really intentionally. Um, so if, if we bring in IFS with that. We would want to honor, you know, does that help support self to part connection? Does that help co-regulation between the self to part? And that's where I bring in also star, which, self-tapping for, uh, attachment and readiness and repair. So that's, if a client's blended with a part, say a really young part that is pre-verbal saying exile. Dissociative parts, parts that are predominantly hypo arousal presenting, so there's some level of numbing or, you know, uh, collapse happening. Um. And or also with really blended protectors to use bilateral stimulation as a message to send from the client self to that target part. Um, and that's different why it might have physiological a downregulating effect. It's really the intention is relational connection. Um, so I think that you can use BLS in lots of creative ways, kind of with integrating, integrating, uh, them. Yeah. So fascinating the way you frame that because I know there's also, um, controversy is probably, uh, too strong of a word, but. Differences of opinions are in, in the IFS world around like teaching coping skills or not. Directly teaching coping skills. Um, and my understanding is some of that is we don't wanna send a message to parts that they need to calm down. Right. Or Right. Unintentionally shut down Trailhead. Like if I have a client that comes in and just got in a huge fight with their partner and they're spinning out as they sit down and I spend 20 minutes. Helping them regulate. Right. I've kinda shut down that trailhead or . Communicated unintentionally that part like, calm down or don't be so worried or don't be ridiculous even, you know, who knows the messages that parts can get, right? But the way you're framing it more around connecting parts to self through BLS is kind of a new idea to me. Yeah, I think that that, and even the notion of bringing in coping skills, I think is really, um, I'm familiar with that controversy and so, you know, I think from an EMDR IFS integrationist standpoint, it's, we want to honor this. System and any IFS intervention we're doing. It's really the intention of self to part connection, and that's around co-regulation, that's around attachment repair internally. Um, if clients really don't have access to self, there is also a place for helping them find self, a sense of self through. More traditional coping skills. Um, and I wanna also normalize for, for clients with complex trauma histories, things like relaxation may really activate parts. They may shift the sense of safety in their own system. So, um, I do think there's a place for coping skills within IFS and how to integrate that. When I bring it in, I'm thinking very intentionally, how, how does this landing for this target part? If we bring in a coping skill, if we bring in a resource, um, for that part, we wanna make sure that helps self to part connection. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, what we do is such an art and such a dance in that we try to help clients be in this kind of optimal. Uh, zone of arousal, but not so overstimulated. That things collapse. Right. Or they go into collapse. Yeah. Um, and that's so delicate, right? And for folks with complex PTSD, it can be, uh, even more delicate, right? And even more tenuous and even sudden, right? Yeah, absolutely. It can happen. It can surprise the client that it's happening. It can surprise the therapist that it's happening. So yes. Yeah, and that can bring up a lot for the therapist right around like, oh, no, I must have done something wrong, or I've hurt my client. Right. Or they're, they're leaving the session feeling worse. Right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That can activate therapist parts for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I think in terms of coping skills, it's like how comfortable is the therapist. And I also think, I mean, coping skills can be used during the befriending process too. I mean, I am, when I'm working with a client with dissociative parts, quite often I bring in movement. Or can we, you know, we're breathing together, there's co-regulation happening with my system, their system. So we're inviting that dissociative part to take in and receive the rhythm or the movement. And we're doing that together. Um, you know, so that there's regulat co-regulation happening all over the place between the therapist, the client, the client self, and that part, just for initial befriending even. So, I mean, I think there's room for it. There's a lot, a lot going on in that. And you know, a lot of my work is supervising new clinicians in the practice and, you know, walking with them as they go through hours for, for licensure. And so, uh, a lot of times folks are just trying to, again, like really grasp one model at a time or be like I'm doing IFS now. Yeah. Um and I, I, in my experience, when you get more experience, years of experience. It becomes easier to work more integratively, right? Mm-hmm. But what, yeah, what's your experience with newer clinicians around, uh, really integrating. Two models at once like this. Yes. I total, I've had the same experience, in consultation and providing consultation. Um, I mean, and it took me a long time. I've been trained in EMDR for almost 20 years and yeah. Have that clinical base of being really familiar with that model before I got trained in IFS. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I, I was just, so, I wanna normalize that for new clinicians, newer clinicians that. To me it's, it's more around, okay, how can we help that clinician's parts detector, because that parts detector , and. And, uh, how they show up, how the clinician shows up in session can help them across models., Whether it be EMDR, whether it be IFS in terms of is the client, you know, state changing in terms of switching parts., You know, how is the, what is the clinical presentation? I mean, I think there's some opportunities for kind of across models with even helping the, the clinician become more aware of their system and their parts and what they're noticing in their clients. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, can you, uh, pull back the curtain a little more on, um, again, on the book? And, uh, you mentioned it's more Yeah. Kind of going from theoretical to more concrete. For, for clinicians wanting to integrate the two models. So, um, yeah, te tell us more about that and where do, where does the book begin in terms of teaching integration? Sure. Yeah. Great. Well, it really begins with, opportunities right off the bat when you're forming a therapeutic relationship with a new client. Opportunities to bring in IFS. Very quickly because from that interaction with bringing in IFS early, you're getting a lot of clinical data, um, to help determine is this going to even be a good candidate to at some point bring in EMDR reprocessing. Um, and one of the ways that I do that in the book and that I do clinically with my clients is doing parts mapping, and doing externalizing techniques. I see I have a hundred percent telehealth. Practice. Um, and so I do a lot of parts mapping because that's a way that's kind of easier to present an externalizing process, online. For clients. Um, so in the book I talk about lots of different ways to use parts mapping, um, particularly early on, including, even towards the end of an intake. So say in the first session or early in the second session, um, asking a client, do you have any parts of fears or concerns about starting therapy? Mm-hmm. Um, or if fears your concerns about anything they disclosed during the intake. Yeah. Um, so really right away honoring and welcoming in, um, that conversation around parts and fears, normalizing fears, um, that can help build working alliance early, um, and help people get a little taste through parts mapping of IFS and this notion of parts. Yeah. Yeah. I, um. Uh, yeah, I want to hear more about what comes next, but as yet, another detour I'll take you on is, uh, how do you do intakes in a way that really honors a client's system? Because, um, everyone does this differently, right? Whether it's like a true intake, like a 90 minute where the clinician's really working off of an actual intake or assessment form or mm-hmm. Questions or maybe they're reviewing what the client already completed, whatever it is. And yet, in my experience, I also feel, uh. An intake can be, um, really activating. Tell me about your history, your trauma history, your psychiatric history, your medical history. Right., And at the end of that session it can feel like, oh, this wasn't really a session at all. It's just like an interview. Um, and it can be, yeah, really activ. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm, I'm lucky because I'm in private practice and so I have a little bit more flexibility with my intake process. So I typically break my intake into two 60 minute sessions. Um, and I save the trauma history for the second session, and I tell the client right away, I gather some trauma history in my intake form, just like brief, you know, snapshot. Um, but um. The first session, ideally, I'm bringing in after, you know, say 40 minutes of history gathering, going over, you know, what they wanna focus on, establishing treatment goals, et cetera, et cetera, is to bring in IFS right away and pause and then say, okay. I know you've just shared a lot of personal information with me. This is the first time we're meeting. I just wanna pause and check in and see, you know, do you have any parts of you that have fears or concerns? Um about starting therapy? Um, we then have the option of doing a parts map around that. Gathering a little bit more data around that, that would be a very subtle, you know, toe in the water. Yeah. Or we can do some experiential, Hey, just even, how's that part responding to you? Acknowledging it? What are you noticing inside? What are you experiencing? That's a little bit more of a, a, a toe dip in the water just to see, to give people a experiential. Experience of what? Of of IFS, you know, and I usually explain, would you like to try one of the modalities I offer, we can even try it today, just for a few minutes if you want. Most clients are like, great, we're getting to it right away. Right. Um, yeah. So that's how I do my intake. And then for the trauma history one, um, you know, that's specifically the second session. I don't, and this is more my EMDR training coming through. I don't get into the nitty gritty details because I wanna be really, yeah. Really, honoring of the protective system and, um, just, just a little bit of the lay of the land of potential EMDR targets, but not intentionally opening the door into the weeds of, of all the details, you know? That wouldn't be trauma informed. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I, I, I like how your intake process really accomplishes multiple things at once, but really. Yeah, honors the client system because I think a lot of times the practicality of just not having enough time to do a true intake and mm-hmm. A session or some, you know, actual kind of, uh, interventions, uh, just depends on the setting and where you work and you know. How many sessions a client can afford, whatever. There's those pressures to around like, Hey, I'm here to kind of get to it, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah. And I'm, like I said, I have the privilege of being in private practice to have more flexibility around that. But I, and I, the reason I intentionally wait to do the trauma history, 'cause I tell the client, I want the client to know what we're gonna do that next session that can build working alliance. I wanna be really transparent about that. Um, and what I've also observed is. The client has the opportunity to practice some self care. Um, before that session, I've had clients come in and say, okay, like, I'm ready. I have my list. I wanna share with you, I've also had clients decompensate and have backlash in their system. Yeah. You know, and that's a lot of clinical information for me right there. Just even, um, in that choice to, to wait to do the trauma history, but tell them, Hey, we're gonna. I'm gonna wanna a snapshot next session. You know, that's what, that's helping me really get to know you and um, you know, we're not going to go into the weeds. It's just more, you know, rough age and Yeah. You know, the particular trauma, so. Yeah. Yeah. Clients don't, you know, one way I think of it is clients don't necessarily know what we need to know in order to help them. And a lot of folks will assume I need to know all the, the, the details to help them. Right. Yeah. Um, and or this whole like, trauma dumping, trauma bonding, you know, uh, ideas uh, that happen out in real life of like, I need to just spill it all, or it can feel like almost a compulsion to, to do that. And I think some of that is like a. A bid for connection or a want to be witnessed, or maybe this person has gone through something horrific as well. And sometimes maybe it will bring you closer and other times, um, it can just stir things up. Where people can have this kind of like vulnerability hangover. Um, absolutely. I'm just wondering like what, what to do with all this trauma, what to do with these memories, what to do with these feelings of worthlessness. Right. Yeah. Yes, they are. They are. And typically, I mean, I think clients that tend to, if they are intentional, if they know about integration options and if they seek out a therapist that integrates both EMDR and IFS, typically they've tried other therapy options that weren't beneficial, right. Um, for their system, um, in some way, shape or form, or it wasn't a good. Fit with a clinician. And so typically they're like, I am ready. Like I am. There's a level of despair, um, in the system that can show up around like urgency to get to it, you know, in terms of the trauma processing, what, what do you think? Um, anytime I learn a new model, I try to oversimplify it for myself and think like, what is the medicine here? You know? Uh, what's like the 20% of the model that's really producing like a lot of the, the 80% of the results? Um, lately I'm thinking a lot about this witnessing piece, right? Or when we get to some of these core memories, when we get to these, uh, uh, wounded exiles, um, a lot of what they need is just witnessing, like really mm-hmm. Really sincere witnessing and sometimes that's. Enough for the part to, uh, un unburden themselves or come into the present or whatever, right? Um, and then the client experiences a real shift in their life and in their mental health. So, um. Yeah. What, what, what do you think is kind of like the, the magic of, of each model? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do think that's a place where EMDR and IFS intersect is around the witnessing process. Yeah. In, you know, IFS obviously that's, its its own step, , being, you know, with the, um, if FS steps and an EMDR, that really happens naturally through the reprocessing. Mm-hmm. Um, but I do think that is part of the medicine. Um, and ultimately I feel like it's. How both EMDR and IFS approach traumatic memory, you know, exiles are, are the, um, you know, that's, those are the parts that are really, that's where trauma processing happens in IFS is befriending exiles, witnessing them, helping them on board and, and supporting them in that process. And then integration with the protectors. And then in EMDR, that happens naturally in phase four, five, and six. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Another curve ball for you.'cause this is how my brain works. Um, love it. What, what are your thoughts around, um, uh, you know, repressed memories or when, uh, I, I like you, you know, learned EMDR first. This is about 10 years ago when I got EMDR trained and , some clients have this fear of like, what if we do this? And I uncover some memory that I wasn't fully aware of, right? Yeah. Sometimes that's just a fear, you know? So what I might ask is like, tell me more about the fear. What would that, what, what is this part of you fear? What that would mean if we uncovered something? And usually it's like, it would be too much, or I'd really feel like I'm totally worthless or totally broken now, right? It would trigger this, this helplessness or hope, hopelessness, I should say , but, and, and sometimes in my experience in doing EMDR like true, just pure EMDR , sometimes parts will. Well, here I'm using parts language will show us memories, um, that, uh, that are new or weren't, weren't fully in. The client's awareness. Yeah. What, what's your experience with all that? Yeah, I've had that happen both in EMDR, pure EMDR, and I've had that it happen in pure IFS. Yeah. Also, yeah, so both models, I mean, I do think that, that, that happens, right. Um, just because, and that's really, going back to the piece around what's medicinal, making things move from unconscious or implicit memory to making them conscious, I think happens in both EMDR and IFS. And so there is a risk of clients having memories come back that they didn't expect Yeah. Or they weren't conscious of for many reasons. And yeah, I think that can happen in both models. It has happened with my clients in both models. Mm-hmm. And how, yeah. how do you, um, how do you work with that? Do you just kind of proceed as. As you already are. Yeah. I think it really depends on how much access the client has to self. Yeah. Um, if they have more access, if they have enough self kind of present and kind of being self-led in that moment. I think the repair can happen naturally there. If it, if it elicits parts in their system where they go into that place of, wow, this is too much. Oh my gosh, this means X, Y, and Z about me. In either model, we have an opportunity to really work with that. Um, in IFS, that would be through befriending and then in EMDR that could be through reprocessing or pausing the reprocessing and doing some befriending. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even before I came to these two models. Um, and, and for, well, for what it's worth, my initial training was very psychodynamic, interpersonal process, you know, Irv kinda stuff. And then. worked under a CBT purist for a couple years , just to kind of get that side of things. And, uh, you know, we talk about core beliefs of course, which are mm-hmm. Again, baked into EMDR and IFS and pretty much any model, right. Um, their internal working model's, how interpersonal process would put it. And so , but the, for many of us, we have parts that hold this belief or fear that something is. Threat threats, uh, you know, threatening to make me unlovable. And then my lovability is like about to be witnessed, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that might lead to loss of connection or devastation, right? Or sometimes you get into this exile territory and parts express fears like that, like devastation or annihilation or, it's almost vague, but it's like complete, uh. Yeah. Like complete devastation even if parts don't know, fully, know what that means, right? Yeah. Yes, yes. I've encountered clients that have had those experiences as well, and you know what? I see a lot as shame. Shame, and I'm gonna, the belief that I'm gonna be so defective that, or I am so defective, there's nothing that can get me out of that effectiveness. Yeah. That can help me. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I'm, I'm the, the actual broken client or the first client that Daphne will say, yeah, you're actually too. Too messed up, you know? Yeah. That's a very common fear of clients, right? Is that fear of am I really gonna be helped or am I untreatable? Yeah. Well, they and, and clients wanna know what we think about it, right? Mm-hmm. So some of it is, are these these things that happen to me, like they are like repulsive or unacceptable to parts of me, but also like wondering what, what the therapist thinks. Um, on the other hand, I have a lot of clients with. Tremendous drama histories who think, um, that they have parts that go, I'm, John is probably bored by this. He probably thinks this is like not a big deal. He, he probably has got someone in the lobby with way worse issues than me. Right. Wow. And that can be a real impasse to therapy too, 'cause that's this is deserving, you know, idea in quotations like. I heard someone say deserve is like the most violent word in our language. But there's this sense of like, do do I even again deserve like healing or to be here at all? Or do I deserve like John's help and connection? And those can be a real impasse to therapy if we don't deal with those and really like welcome those fears. Yes. They can be an impasse to therapy. Yeah. I've encountered that similar, similar narrative or parts with a similar belief system. Yeah. Around, you know, that shows up as like, oh gosh, this, um, you know, it's this assumption of being dismissed or not deserving treatment. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, or if we do this treatment and it doesn't work, what would that mean? Right. Mm-hmm. Yes. And for lot of clients, again, with the MDR piece, this is like their last stop. They'd be like, I've. I have kind of quote failed out of my last three therapists or iops or DBT or whatever it is. Or medication hasn't worked. And so for a lot of them, they're like, this has to work. Mm-hmm. And we, we have to deal with those, um, those sentiments up front. And even going back to your intake piece around like expectations for this. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and goals and what else are you doing? And really resourcing, looking for other areas of their life in which they are, have connections or community or. Whatever. Mm-hmm. Resource basically. Absolutely. Because it can be really high stakes, you know, when they, when they come to us, it can be. And um, you know, to that point, I think in addition to, you know, lots of different ways to bring in parts mapping or opportunities for befriending parts. Another integration piece is before you begin the EMDR reprocessing is to ask again, are there any other parts that have fears or concerns about doing EMDR with me? On this trauma, you know, all the layers of, if it's relational with me as the therapist, if it's um, you know, doing the actual EMDR protocol of phase four with reprocessing or focusing on the trauma, I think that there's a wide net around just really getting consent from the system. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's great. Um, with the time we have left ane what else do you want to shed light on in terms of Yeah, your book. And this integrative approach and, uh, the way that your book kinda makes it more concrete for practitioners. Yeah, sure. Um, I think just, I think the only other piece I'll say is just that it's very hands-on. Mm-hmm. I mean, and very practical. So it's, um, it's really an opportunity to use this integrative, whether it be through case conceptualization, lots of different ways to integrate parts, mapping, lots of different ways to integrate. Um, EMDR interventions with befriending integrate traditional coping skills with befriending to support stabilization, um, and how to find targets. Mm-hmm. Um, whether you're coming more from that IFS lens or from that traditional EMDR world, um, as well as interventions to use during the actual reprocessing. So it's, it's very comprehensive. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, I'm excited to read it. Um, I forgot to ask the name of it by the way. Sure, yes, it is, um, integrating Internal Family Systems into EMDR therapy, um, a step by step guide to trauma complex trauma recovery. So. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to read it. And, um, yeah. And thank you for your contributions in this, uh, arena.'cause it's just so needed. And I'm, I'm excited for where this can go because, um. Again, so, so many clients are excited about both of these models and learning about them, and then coming to therapists and saying like, yeah, I wanna do this work, or I want to work with both models. So, um, mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm really excited that you're helping clinicians to bring this to, to the world in a, a more integrative way. So, yeah, thank you for, for your work and um, thanks John, and thanks for all the work you do too. I, I love your podcast. Yeah. So, oh, thanks. Yeah, it's. It's really fun for me. Um, it's almost like I would do this even if I didn't publish these episodes,'cause I just get to meet really interesting people like yourself. And, uh, I love digging into all of this stuff, you know, and especially theory and technique and a lot of the teaching I do. Um, I just love, I love technique and I love theory and it sort of like kinda my bread and butter. So love getting into the technicalities of. Of therapy and trauma therapy. So it's, it's a lot of fun. And, yeah, IFS community is just such a rich one. Mm-hmm. So I'm grateful for, for that. Um, yeah. That being said, Daphne, how can people learn more about you and, um, and, and reach out? Sure. Um, so my website, Daphne Fatter, which is F as in Frank, A-T-T-E-R, um, phd.com. So just my website, um, is the easiest way to find me. And the right now my book is on pre-order right now, only on Amazon and January. It'll be available at your favorite bookstore, um, where you can actually get it into your hands and start using it in January, uh, 2026. So great, exciting stuff. Um, thank you again Daphne. And um, yeah, I'd love to have you back anytime, but, um, thanks, thanks for coming back. Great. Thanks John. Take care. Keep in touch. Thanks. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at John Clarke Therapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at JohnClarketherapy.com. See you next time.