IFS Therapy in Practice: Beyond the Training Model with Monica Cavalcante

In this episode of Going Inside, I sit down with Monica Cavalcante, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, to explore what Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy really looks like beyond the structure of formal training.

Monica shares her journey from self-study to completing Level 2 IFS training, and how her understanding of the model has evolved through real-world client work. Together, we unpack the gap between theory and practice, the importance of therapist self-awareness, and why IFS is far more complex—and powerful—than it first appears.

3 Key Takeaways

1. Why trying to “get IFS right” might actually get in the way of the work
2. The moment therapists realize the model isn’t as simple as it seemed
3. What most people miss when they try to “figure out” their inner world

Our Guest

 Monica Cavalcante is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker based in Virginia who specializes in trauma and OCD. She integrates Internal Family Systems (IFS), Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), and Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) to support clients in understanding themselves more deeply, reducing anxiety, and creating meaningful, lasting change.

Monica is passionate about helping people build a more compassionate relationship with themselves by exploring the different “parts” that show up in their inner world. Her work focuses on supporting clients in moving through trauma, navigating obsessive-compulsive patterns, and feeling more grounded, connected, and empowered in their lives.

She is the founder of Healing & Integration Therapy, where she offers both in-person and virtual sessions, bringing a thoughtful, down-to-earth, and integrative approach to her work.

Connect with Monica: https://healingintegrationtherapy.com/

Resources & Offerings:

➡️ Free IFS Training for Therapists: From Burnout to Balance: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast
➡️ 1-Month Grace Period with Jane – Use code JOHN or visit: https://meet.jane.app/john-clarke-ambassador
➡️ 10% Off at Grounding Well – Use code GWJOHNCLARKE or visit: https://www.groundingwell.com/GWJOHNCLARKE
➡️ 10% Off at Dharma Dr. – Use code JOHN or visit: https://dharmadr.com/JOHN

Connect with me:

https://www.johnclarketherapy.com/
https://www.instagram.com/johnclarketherapy/
https://www.tiktok.com/@johnclarketherapy
https://www.youtube.com/@johnclarketherapy

Grab Your Seat for the Free IFS Webinar Here: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast

➡️ Free Training - Learn how to integrate the principles of IFS into your therapy practice: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast

Transcript

Monica: [00:00:00] I think it's something that we don't hear quite often because we learn the model, right? And the model says this, but then when you go into practice in the real world, you can encounter so many things, so many different parts with different qualities and, and if you are not aware, attuned to what's happening in the room, all those things can.

Can just dissolve.

John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.

Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. [00:01:00] Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.

All right. I'm excited to welcome back my guest. Uh, Monica is an LCSW, who we had on the show exactly a year ago, um, to do some kind of impromptu consultation around. IFS the work, the model, the training process. And then Monica reached out, um, with some updates and to kind of follow up on that conversation.

So if people are interested in checking that out, we'll put links to that in the description and show notes. Um, but for now, yeah, Monica, maybe catch us up a little bit. First of all, on. More about who you are and your, your work and things like that and where you're located. And then we'll get into your kind of IFS journey.

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you John for having me back on the show. I really appreciate it. I say, I think I said that last time that I learned about IFS through you, through your podcast and you know, I have a part of me that would be forever grateful. Um, yeah. So I'm a [00:02:00] licensed clinical social worker here in Virginia.

Um. And, uh, been doing a lot of IFS work. I am absolutely in love with work and I think since uh, we last met, um, a lot of things have changed. I actually got to, to the training, uh, with the institute, uh, finished my IFS level two back in January, and I'm the journey of, you know, consultation, uh, certification, which is lovely because I just.

Love connecting with other clinicians and, um, um, I think it's not so much for the certification for me, it's just the community. I, I, I just love it. I just love it. Yeah. 

John Clarke: Yeah. That's great. Well, congrats on. Uh, moving along through the training process or I guess the formal training process. Maybe expand on that a little bit.

Right, thank you. 'cause [00:03:00] as, as we talked about last time, you know that it's not a given for everyone, that they're going to have access to a level one training and, um, kind of get their foot in the door with the institute in that regard. There's the infamous waiting lists, lotteries. I don't even know what the latest is now.

Right. But, um, what's that whole thing been like? I guess another question would be, has it been worth it? 'cause that's a question I see popping up a lot, right? 

Monica: Yeah. Uh, it was, it was my IFS level one training was in person in Chicago. Um, I mean, St. Charles and, uh, I have made friends for life. Uh, we meet once a month and it's been, um.

So good to have this community. Um, I love the fact that we were able to be in person. Um, something that I don't want to take for granted because, you know, it, it takes a lot. It, it takes time, it takes money [00:04:00] efforts, uh, time that you're not doing your job, you're not with your family. It's a very intense training, as you know.

Uh, so I think it was worth every penny for me. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Um, how has it informed your understanding of the model? 

Monica: Uh, I, I think doing the IFS training was transformative for me, um, as a person. Um, we got to do a lot of, a lot of IFS on ourselves and, uh, really experience the model. I think when it comes to self-energy, there is something about being with other people in the same room, same intention, same purpose that I.

I can even put into words. Um, so [00:05:00] I think experiencing that, and again, I think I can't compare that with my IFS level two, that was virtual and uh, it was amazing, but it was different. It was different. Uh, I, I think in hindsight I would have done my IFS level two in person too. Uh, but it just didn't work out that way.

I'm grateful that I got to do it. Um, but having done IFS level one in person, there is a huge difference in my opinion. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Monica: Yeah. If you, if you're someone that values, um, this in-person atmosphere, this energy, then. Go for it.

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Yeah. 

Monica: Yeah. 

John Clarke: That's really good advice. I know a lot of people, you know, ponder that that decision between in person and online and some of it is logistics and even cost, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Because the training itself is very costly. And then getting yourself to Chicago and putting yourself up, uh, and doing, going multiple times is, um, yeah, is a lot. And 

Monica: it is. 

John Clarke: Yeah. And 

Monica: I, I, I acknowledge that, you know? Yeah. Uh, I think it's a privilege to be able to do, uh, these, this training in person.

There's a lot that goes into it. A lot. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. 

John Clarke: You mentioned something that is very IFS, which is experiencing the model yourself is the main way of learning. Receiving the model is a main way of learning and um, level one is a lot of that. It's a lot of trying on the [00:08:00] model as a practitioner and receiving it as a, um, as a client.

So, mm-hmm. Um, this kind of learning from the inside out piece is, uh, pretty apropos for, for IFS. 

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Monica: Yeah, yeah. I think it's. Uh, I, I don't know about you, but I feel like for this work that we do, um, you have to experience that for yourself. Yeah. It, it doesn't feel genuine to help other people navigate their own parts, their internal system, when you don't do it.

Right. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Monica: So I think that's why it's so important to either be in your own IFS therapy, uh, consultation, um, a group of folks that, you know, gather to talk about that. Mm-hmm.

John Clarke: If IFS is [00:09:00] simple but not easy, on the surface, it's about parts and self. But when you're in the room with a client, things can get complex fast. Helping someone meet a protective part or wounded exile, that takes skill and most importantly, it takes safety. My name is John Clarke, trauma therapist and IFS therapist, and in this free webinar for therapists and practitioners, we're gonna explore the subtleties that make IFS so powerful and how to navigate them with more clarity and confidence.

You're gonna learn why safety is everything and how to do it well. What trips therapists up when applying IFS in practice and a simple tool that you can begin using right away. If you want to go beyond theory and truly embody the work, then this is for you. Join the free webinar today. Link is in the description.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I mean. One thing that has come up in my training in a non IFS setting is this idea that you, you can't take clients further than you've gone yourself, which has to do more with [00:10:00] our personal work.

But also, um, I, I do tend to try everything out myself first before applying it. Uh, with a client and find that it's really important to know actually what that feels like. That was my experience in the EMDR training where, um, I've told this story before, but I, when I got EMDR trained, I. You know, the, the practitioner who was practicing on me, she kind of paused in the middle of the, um, the, the BLS and I got extremely dysregulated and they had to call the trainer over and things like that.

And it was a really challenging experience, but it gave me a lot of reverence for the potency of it. 

Monica: Right. 

John Clarke: And in reality, you know, there's a lot of potency to IFS as well, and that's part of why there's lots of guardrails. Around it for better or worse because you can go too deep, too fast and get people into deep waters and you can just jump [00:11:00] in and start kind of, um, messing around with exile territory and you can do damage with the model.

So I think that's why there is so much gatekeeping around the model. Mm-hmm. But also, I know a lot of people have lots of different feelings about that, which I also understand. So. 

Monica: Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. Um, um, like you, I do think it's so important that we get to experience, um, everything that we offer to our clients.

Um, my EMDR training was amazing, uh, was in person and it was intense. I remember coming home and, uh, driving back home, and I just wanted to cry. And when I got home, I was so exhausted. Emotionally, I went to bed right away. It was my body could sense the, the release of all, you know, all the, my processing, whatever it was that I was processing, reprocessing.

[00:12:00] Uh, it, it was a lot. It was a lot. And it gave me this, this perspective, right? Uh, so when I work with clients, I can be mindful, it can be a lot for their bodies. It can be a lot for their mm-hmm. Um. Internal system. And one of the things that I always encourage people to do, whether they're doing IFS or EMDR, go home, take care of yourself.

Do do what helps you, right? Go eat good food, sleep, watch a movie, do whatever helps you. Because it can be, it can be a lot. This work can be a lot. Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Tell me more about your experience in kind of bringing the model to your clients. 'cause I know, again, last time we spoke a year ago, um, the IFS.

That you knew so far was, um, kind of self-study, right? 

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. 

John Clarke: Um, and so what was it like applying the model then, and what's it like applying the model now after your 

Monica: formal training? Right, right. I, I think there is more, um, [00:13:00] I understanding more confidence and also wow. I actually got to do it myself, right?

Uh, after my training, I went ahead and, and started my own IFS therapy because I, I, I do think that you, you gotta do your own work so you can understand, uh, how, you know people's systems can work so differently and it's not an easy task to navigate people's systems, right? To, to support people in navigating their own systems.

Um. So I think it gave me more confidence, more, um, more calmness and more awareness of what this work entails. Um, and I am so glad I did. I think, you know, going back to, to your initial question, was it worth it? Yes. [00:14:00] Because, um. Dedicating so many hours because I think this training is like over a hundred hours, something like that.

Uh, and I didn't stop there because, you know, right away I got two consultation groups, um, one individual consultation and another one group consultation. So, uh, that keeps going on and on and on. Um, and you are always learning something. You're always learning something. When you think, okay, I, I got this figured out, right?

There's always something that will show up, whether in your own work or a client, and you're like, wow, that was, that was interesting, right? I, I still, uh, get very amazed by some parts. As I'm doing this work as, as, as a therapist, as an observer, uh, as someone who practices IFS too. Um, it always amazes me, [00:15:00] I think.

I think parts don't cease to amaze me. Yeah, 

John Clarke: yeah, yeah. I mean, humility and reverence for, um, our parts and the way they. Work and their unique attributes and personalities is, um, a big part of the kind of posture of of IFS. 

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: And also they're leaving room for the magic of the model and things just tend to happen.

And when we are in, uh, a good degree of self-energy, that invites the client to be there as well. And, um, things just tend to, to happen. So a lot of people get really caught up on like the technique, you know, we were, um, I was doing consulting with someone in our, our Pathways to Self group yesterday and, you know, they really wanted to like get the model right or get the F'S right and do them in order.

Mm. And, and [00:16:00] like that's the structure of a session. Mm-hmm. Um, and in reality I think the flow is much more non-linear and organic and unfolding as it. As it is then, um, like a step-by-step kind of model. So the more we can allow for that, the more the work is organic and when there's enough self-energy, you know, self just kind of knows what to do, and parts tend to come out of the woodwork to get the help and love and attention that they've been needing for sometimes your whole life.

Monica: Yeah. I, I, I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the thing that parts have agenda, right? And, and self does not. And when we show up, you know, trusting people's self-energy and parts. You just see it unfold in, in front of your [00:17:00] eyes, right? Yeah. When we don't try to, to control outcomes and, and how things should go, but rather just being open to whatever happens.

I think that's, um, that's IFS. Mm-hmm. Right. 

John Clarke: Yeah. There, there's something sneaky about this, which is. We can be subtly blended or blended with these self-like parts or therapist parts that are trying to quote, make something happen, 

Monica: right? 

John Clarke: And that energy is against subtle but detectable. And especially in training or in supervised work, you can kind of sense when the therapist is trying to get the client.

Somewhere or get them to the next thing or get them to unblend or, or whatever it might be. And it feels like a bit of pushing is happening. And even though you, you say, okay, well it's a, it's a self-like [00:18:00] pushing or a self-like agenda. Mm-hmm. It's an agenda nonetheless. Right, right. And it's antithetical to, to IFS, which is not pushing and.

Very much being with and allowing for the work to unfold. And when it, when you do that, things happen organically. Um, parts, unblend, organically, unburdening, uh, kind of mm-hmm. Start happening organically and you can just follow it. 

Monica: Right, right. And, and as you're talking, something's coming to mind and maybe you can, um, expand a little bit more on that.

But, um. I see a lot of my work, you know, parts that, uh, I know some, some people don't like cheese disturb, like parts with self-like, um, qualities. Um, but I see that a lot and, uh, I think it was so funny because one time I was, I don't know if it was in my training. Yeah, I think it was in my [00:19:00] training and I was doing like a demo and, uh.

Um, the person asked me, how do you feel towards that part? And I said, oh my God, I love her. She's a badass. And, and then she just said, oh, notice that part that thinks that part is a badass. I was like, well, but the whole time I thought it was self. Right. And, and I think if, if you are not so attuned to what's happening in the room, you can miss that.

Right. And I think I see this so much parts that are trying to rescue, parts that are trying to fix something and um, and, and sometimes even clients will think, oh, but this is my self energy and I don't know if you can expend a little bit more on that. Yeah. What you see in your work. 

John Clarke: Well, we get really caught up on this, like parts versus self.

Uh, dichotomy and it is really not that binary. [00:20:00] So the goal isn't necessarily like always self, always lead the way parts, step aside, soften back, soften back, step aside. Um, the goal is coherence and harmony in the system, 

Monica: right? 

John Clarke: So if I go, how are you feeling toward the part, and you go, I love her. And even if it is a self-like part, does it really matter?

If good work is happening in the system, right? Mm-hmm. If I've got this whole group of parts and self at the table mm-hmm. And one part is going, I love that one and I'm going, hold up, hold up, hold up. That's not self, don't share that. 

Monica: Ah, 

John Clarke: you know, I, I, I just, we, we like to try to, um, again, create rules and like.

This decision tree for ourselves. So like, if it is a self-like part, think it for its help, ask it to blend, go back to self. And I just don't think it's that linear. Right? Like if, if there's another part expressing [00:21:00] love for another one, um, I'm, I'm not gonna get in the way of that. Mm-hmm. And so. From a systems' perspective, like you have something good happening here, you have more understanding that's happening inside the system.

Mm-hmm. And that's a good thing. Even if self isn't the one quote, like driving that understanding, in that moment, I'm still stepping back and going, Hey, two people are getting along here. Two family members are actually seeing eye to eye here. I don't need to like, get in and, and be, you know, fi finicky, like, uh, you know, mess with that, so.

Monica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: If good work is happening, get out of the way. Right. That's always my go-to. Um, 'cause we can also be these like. Self-like parts detectors where we're always trying to like, have a gotcha moment of like mm-hmm. You know, check, see if that's a part check and see if that's a part. I just don't know if it matters as much as like, we think it matters.

Mm-hmm. Because we, we want the work to be clean and tidy and know like, okay, what's a [00:22:00] part and what's self, and it's like if the texture of the session and of that moment is loving, it doesn't really matter. 

Monica: Right. I love that. Yeah, I, I love that. Um, and, and I, I think one of the things that, um. Helps me is, um, just to show a little bit of curiosity.

Okay. You know, does, does, does the part want to say more about that, about liking you or thinking that you're badass or whatever it is? Uh, but I love your perspective on, you know, if it's supporting the system. They, they can have opinions, right? You know, we know that some parts don't like each other, and some parts they do some, sometimes they actually work together to protect the same exile part.

Um, I, I love that. I really do. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's something that we don't hear quite often because, you know, we, we learn the model, right? And the model [00:23:00] says this, but then. When you go into practice in the real world, um, you can encounter so many things, so many things, so many different parts with, uh, um, d different qualities.

And, and if you are not aware, attuned to what's happening in the room, all those things can, can just dissolve, right? You, you, you, you don't get to really, um. Make sense of what is happening, like this perspective that you brought. Okay. It's, it seems like it's two parts that they seem to appreciate one another.

Right. And if it's supporting the system, we can just go with that. Yeah. 

John Clarke: Yeah. How has it been for you to introduce the model to clients, especially given, again, like a year ago? It was still pretty new. Now it's a lot less new. Right. So how, how has that [00:24:00] been and how do you set up that, um, kind of offering for them?

Monica: Right. Um, I think the folks who have been with me for a while, I think, um, have grown. And I have grown. I think we've grown together. Um. And something that I have been noticing, a lot of people are showing up asking for IFS and some people, um, sometimes they hear on the internet, they hear, uh, even like, uh, chatt PT referring, Hey, you know, there's this therapy, uh, people here on TikTok or Instagram and, and I think it's interesting that people are looking specifically for IFS.

Yeah. But I, I, I think answering your question, um, I think people are more aware of what IFS is now, and I, I, [00:25:00] I don't know why. Maybe it's social media, maybe people are talking more about it. Uh, but I think before. When you said something like, oh, IFS therapy parts work therapy, people are like, what? What is this?

It's like, are is this a spiritual thing and who are we talking to? And I think nowadays what I have been noticing is people are more aware of what if FS is, I guess we are talking more about it. I don't know what you would say about it, but, um. Sometimes I, I have people specifically when they go to, to the portal saying, I want IFS therapy.

And I think that's great. I think it's, it's lovely that people are more aware of what if FS is and what if FS can offer. 

John Clarke: Yeah, that's great. What, what else do you feel is kind of missing from this conversation or when you, when you reached out, what did you wanna make sure we kind of, um, touched on here today?[00:26:00] 

Monica: I'm not sure. I think I, I just reconnecting. Um, you know, I love your podcast. I'm always listening to, you know, your podcast. If FS talks, um, I. And a bunch of other, you know, folks that you know do videos, uh, podcasts on IFS and I love to hear people's perspectives. Uh, I have a part of me that's a learner, like a big, big learner and chic.

Lips IFS. So anything that's like IFS related, you know, trauma work related, because that's what I focus on in my work. Uh, I like to hear, I, I like to listen to, I like to watch. I like to just connect and, and see. What has it been like for you in your practice to do this work? Yeah. 

John Clarke: Yeah. That, that's great.

Um. You know, I mentioned that piece about the model just kind of flowing and things being out of [00:27:00] order and, um, that, that's something I've learned and kind of leaned into over time. 

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Another piece that I'm kind of working on is I find that regardless of whether or not we're in. Doing true IFS, um, a lot of clients and a lot of therapists, we get into what I consider figuring it out mode.

Mm-hmm. So the person goes, I wanna know why I am so sensitive to criticism. And we do all this, um, searching and we realize, okay, your mom was really critical and therefore you're really critical on yourself. Right? Mm-hmm. And then when someone says, Hey, why'd you load the dishwasher? Like that a, a part of you lashes out defensively.

Okay. If knowing that was enough to heal, you would've healed by now, because our clients are very smart and very intellectual. Mm-hmm. And they can understand and they can trace back the roots of their problems. Mm-hmm. But the problem [00:28:00] persists, right. So what needs to happen there? And so I Am you just exploring this idea of going from figuring out to just being with.

Parts. And in reality it's being with parts in the way they needed someone to be at that time. This part of the, uh, kind of healing steps or unburdening sequence. Mm-hmm. And in a way I find that often that is enough. So if you find this part that was there at the kitchen table with mom towering over you mm-hmm.

Going, what the hell happened on this math quiz? Um, then. Just being with that part of you there in the kitchen at that moment or sitting beside her at that table can be enough. Also, just noticing when you're about to go into a work meeting today as a 37-year-old adult or whatever. Mm-hmm. Noticing that part is active again, and you find her right in the center of your chest and practice.

Just being with her and listening and going, I [00:29:00] hear you, is often enough and so. We, I find that we will do anything other than just be with our parts. In other words, just be with our feelings. Mm-hmm. Because we wanna do something, we wanna figure it out. We want a coping skill. We wanna do like some cool and blending trick.

And yet the simplicity and beauty of that is, um, it, it just really communicates to parts that these feelings make sense. They're valid, they're not too much for me, aka self. And then when we meet them. Paradoxically, they, they, they tend to fade, right? They tend to soften. So it's not about the fact that you're having these feelings, it's about noticing them and seeing that as an opportunity to, to meet that, that part of you.

Um, 

Monica: yeah, 

John Clarke: so that's just a little piece when I try to like really simplify. What I'm trying to do with the model, that's, that's one piece of it. And then my clients go, what do I do when I'm triggered? What do I do when I'm [00:30:00] anxious? What do I do when I'm, um, wanting to, to start drinking again or whatever?

That's a piece that I, um, kind of always return to. 

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious and, and I wanna be mindful of time. Um, you're good. But if, if you have a couple seconds to just see. Do you get to, 'cause as I'm hearing you, you say that, I'm here thinking about your background too in EMDR, do you ever get to use bilateral stimulation to just be with parts, right?

Yep. Okay. There's nothing that we need to do right now. Just b, 

John Clarke: there's a really handy tool for this, and this is a Daphne fatter tool called the STAR Method. It's an acronym for something. Um, if you Google Star as an acronym STAR method, it is, uh, and I think it's in her new book, which I, uh, I endorsed. She, um.

The, the technique is basically, as you [00:31:00] connect with that part mm-hmm. Send it itself energy and bear witness to it while tapping mm-hmm. While doing the bbl s and it's really as simple as that. Right. So that's a really beautiful and simple way to, to do it and to interact with the part and for the part to kind of receive the BLS.

Mm-hmm. Um. So I think stuff like that is, is very handy. Right. And again, if you, if you look at something like e MDR and you break apart the components of it, something that is happening in MDR is someone is bearing witness to the trauma. Someone is bearing witness to the horror of that thing that happened.

Someone is bearing witness to that kitchen table moment. Mm-hmm. And we're tapping and we're asking for your suds zero to 100. And we're asking what's the belief or fear that goes along with this thing. Well, I'm afraid I'm worthless. Got it. Just go with that. So, you know there, there's just so many ways to break it apart and go like, what's the medicine inside EMDR?

Is it [00:32:00] the BLS? Is it the core belief piece? Right? Is it the witnessing, what's the medicine in IFS? Right? Is it the unrun? Is it the flushing out parts? Is it asking their fears? Whatever. So. You know, the bottom line is, I don't know, I have some ideas, but mm-hmm. Whenever I am, you know, there, there's this idea in business, the 80 20 rule, 20% of efforts.

Are usually producing 80% of your results or 20, you know, 20% of all the products you offer are producing 80% of your results. Something similar I think happens in therapy and in these models where we go, okay, there's 11 different components to IFS or to e MDR or to act or whatever. And I'm always trying to find that 20% and distill it down to go like, what is the essence here?

Mm-hmm. And what's the thing, the component that's actually driving most of the change. 

Monica: Right. Right. [00:33:00] It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. 

John Clarke: So I just encourage clinicians to think about that too. Right. And another good way to do that, that is both good for your client work and good for your marketing is explain this thing to me like I'm a third grader, right?

Or when I explain things to my 6-year-old about what I do, um, that's a very good opportunity to practice making things that simple. What do I do at work and when people are sad, how does Daddy help them? You know, as a therapist. 

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Really, really going into how do I understand what I do and what I'm trying to do in the room, and how do I explain that, whether it's to a client or, you know, my 6-year-old.

Monica: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love the, I I wasn't aware of the method. Uh, I do something similar. Um. Just when I do calm place, just like, do you wanna bring some parts with you and [00:34:00] then, you know, either do butterfly hug or some tapping on the legs or have some posters in the office that sometimes people, um, en enjoy doing that.

And, and I think it, it can be so calming for. For clients and even for us, right? It's just like, you know, sometimes I'm just stepping on my legs as I'm sitting in the office and just like, you know, being with my parts too as, as the session is happening. Yeah. Yeah, 

John Clarke: the biggest permission I, I wish I could give all therapists is the permission to play and experiment.

So anytime I'm setting up like a technique or an intervention, I hold it with a very loose hand and go, I don't know, we could kind of try this thing I'm holding like a fidget thing. It's like, we could try this thing or we could stand in our heads, right? Or we could spin around in a chair or we could try to get to know that part.

Let's just see. Right? So I hold everything very loosely and have that. Um, that sense of just, let's find out [00:35:00] together. Mm-hmm. You know, years ago when I started my career, I used to do a lot of clinical hypnosis, and that's, that's the same thing of, um, let's see what happens together. The reality is like hypnosis is a phenomenon, and that phenomenon may or may not happen today, you know?

Mm-hmm. Or some version of it may or may not happen today in the room. I don't really know, but I'm always curious and let's see how it goes, and if it doesn't work, let's get curious about that. Mm-hmm. And the parts and the thoughts and the feelings around it not working. So in that, in that regard, you kind of can never go wrong.

But therapists put, we put ourselves in this power position that we never wanted in the first place of like needing to know, needing to be the expert, needing the IFS to work. And that is antithetical to IFS and to healing. Mm-hmm. And so it's like, let's, let's see how that is. Right. If the client's like, I wanna sit on the floor, it's like, let's sit on the floor and see how that is.

Right? I think I wanna draw my parts. Let's draw them and see how that is. Right. I just, I never assume that I know how this is gonna go, and [00:36:00] that takes me out of that. Expert chair that I never wanted to be in, in the first place. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I think it builds greater trust with clients too, right?

That I don't have this agenda and I'm not trying to like do something to you. Um, 'cause I don't know how any of this is gonna go. And I'm constantly humbled by the phenomenon of therapy in general. And I'm constantly going, I don't really know what therapy is. The longer I do this, the more I'm like. I don't really know what it is.

It's a lot of things. 

Monica: Right. 

John Clarke: You know? 

Monica: Yeah, I agree. And I, I, I think when we, um, sit with a client and we practice saying to ourselves that the client knows their system better than anybody. Yeah. I, I, I don't know the client system. Right. And I, I think having, going back to that humility that we talked about.

Past, uh, show, and, and, and today you talked a little bit about, I think it's so helpful to always have that [00:37:00] in mind, right? I'm here just as a channel, as a support, but my client knows their system better. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Monica: Right. 

John Clarke: The, the, the position, uh, the, the, the positionality, if you will. That was explained to me by my, my mentor Randy, who's not an IFS therapist, but a trauma therapist and has basically his own parts model is, and he'll even do this with clients, which is have them stand up and kind of show them that in this work we're walking down this path or this trail together and it's not me, the therapist standing out in front of you.

Monica: Right, 

John Clarke: right. It's not me totally behind you or too far back. It's me kind of beside and slightly behind. And going, Hey, we could go over here. We could go over here. How are you feeling about going over here? Yes. Uh, this is scary and I'm with you. Right? And so really thinking about your positionality, your posture, uh, clinically and therapeutically, and notice how there's moments where you end [00:38:00] up in front for some reason.

Right. Leading from the front versus leading from behind or slightly off into the side. Mm-hmm. Um, there are things that evoke therapist parts when clients are about to relapse or they're cutting again or they're hopeless or they might get a divorce, oh my God, I gotta stop the divorce. Or the client's going, this therapy isn't really working.

And we go, oh my God, I gotta pull out some new tricks. Or really like, do an unburdening or something crazy. That's all our stuff. Right? And it's all antithetical and it it, when we step out in front of clients, it, it sends the message to them that they can't handle this, that they're not capable of walking this path.

I have to do it for you. I know more than you, we don't mean to do this, but we do it out of anxiety and we do it implicitly and uh, without awareness. So just really bringing gentle curiosity to those moments where I'm doing too much in session. Oh, how did I end up here? Out in front of the client, right?

Mm-hmm. [00:39:00] I'm trying to rescue or protect or save them from something, you know, which again, communicates that they need rescuing and saving, and that you are in fact a savior. That's pretty dangerous. Right? 

Monica: Right. 

John Clarke: So I 

Monica: think that's why consultation is so important in this work. Mm-hmm. Right. So because things will happen, you know, counter transference will happen, um, parts will come up.

Being consultation. I think it's essential for this work to talk about, yeah, things that we may need support with navigating people's systems and our own systems, right? Because I think that's what's happening in sessions for us therapists. We are navigating our own systems and the client systems as the session is happening.

Yeah. So, which requires a lot of self-awareness, self energy, and uh, and consultation. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Mm-hmm. There you go. Mm-hmm. 

Monica: Yeah. 

John Clarke: A lot of times we, we don't know these things are happening. Right. This is also why taping [00:40:00] sessions, maybe not all of them, but taping some sessions and showing your work in supervision and consultation is essential.

Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm doing that right now with my own supervisor and, um, there's, there's what we are aware of as therapists and then there's everything else, right? And we're always subject to the inner subjectivity of just client and and therapist experience of what happened in the room. But then there's everything else and we're, we're always missing something.

So the more you can tape ensure your work, the more your work is gonna deepen and you're gonna start to. Get help noticing those layers that are, um, that are more implicit or are your blind spots. That's what a blind spot is. It's you, you, you're not aware of it. You can't possibly be aware of it yet until someone helps you bring awareness to it, whether it's a client helps you or your supervisor helps you or whatever.

So, 

Monica: mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're always growing in this work outside of this work. Right. Um, yeah. It's, [00:41:00] it's this, this life of growth and experiencing things and things are changing, and things are growing and yeah. It's just so beautiful. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Monica: Yeah. 

John Clarke: Well, thank you for coming back and checking in with us, Monica.

Thank you for having, I'm gonna ask you one more question as we wrap up here, which is, um, 

Monica: yeah. 

John Clarke: If you went all the way back to starting your IFS journey, what do you wish you had known? Knowing what you know now? 

Monica: Hmm. Let me think for a second.

Okay. I hope this makes sense, but I wish I knew that was more complex than I thought. 

John Clarke: Great. Yeah. 

Monica: Does that make sense? 

John Clarke: Yep. 

Monica: Yeah. 

John Clarke: Yep. And there's a phenomenon to explain that. I think it's the Dunning Kruger effect. So the, [00:42:00] the research shows the more you learn about something complex, the more you realize there.

There's more that you don't know, 

Monica: right? 

John Clarke: You realize the ocean's actually a lot deeper than I thought. Now that I'm, um, I've weighted out a little bit deeper into it, that is a thousand percent the case with, um. With if FS and again, we, when we try to over, uh, simplify it or think, I've like got the model 'cause I know the IFF, I know that the six F's or whatever we're, we're really saying, I have mastered the human psyche, which is ridiculous.

So really allowing it to be deep and complex. Love that. Yeah. And just having that reverence for, um, it is, it is very deep and the more you learn about something, the more you realize how much more there is that you don't know. That's a fun phenomenon. 

Monica: Yeah. I'm here thinking, yeah, I wish I knew it was more complex than I thought because I think it would have given me more, um, [00:43:00] curiosity.

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Monica: Yeah. That's interesting. 

John Clarke: Well, it's, it's simple in theory, but not easy to implement. Um. 

Monica: Yeah. 

John Clarke: You know, uh, smoothly and seamlessly and with depth and grace and so, um, but that's why it's an art, you know? Yeah. Um, 

Monica: beautiful art. 

John Clarke: Thank you so much again, Monica, for being here. Thank you. Thank you. We'll, yeah, my pleasure.

We'll, we'll put links to your, um, website and stuff like that if folks are interested in learning more about you and, um 

Monica: Sure. Thank you. Uh, who 

John Clarke: knows? We'll maybe we'll check in again in a year. 

Monica: Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate being here. Um, it's always good to connect and talk about IFS. Yeah, 

John Clarke: you too.

Thanks again for doing this. 

Monica: Thank you, John. I appreciate you. 

John Clarke: See you soon. Okay. 

Monica: See you soon.

John Clarke: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. [00:44:00] You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.

See you next time.