Breaking the Narcissistic Abuse Cycle | With Emily Barker

This episode of Going Inside examines the narcissistic abuse cycle, trauma bonding, and why leaving isn't as simple as it looks - through both a clinical and IFS lens.

Key takeaways

🌿 The 4-stage cycle that keeps people trapped in narcissistic relationships
🌿 Why trauma bonding can feel like an addiction
🌿 What IFS reveals about the parts behind narcissistic behavior
🌿 How to meet clients where they are, even mid-cycle
🌿 What it really takes to rebuild identity after abuse

About Our Guest

Emily is the founder of Emily Jane Guidance. Emily works with people who are rebuilding their lives after trauma, difficult relationships, and major life challenges, combining her counselling training, psychology studies, and personal experience to offer practical and compassionate support. Her mission is simple: to help people feel seen, regain their confidence, and create a future that feels truly their own. Connect with Emily here: 
https://www.emilyjaneguidance.com/
Instagram, TikTok & Facebook: @emilyjaneguidance

Resources & Offerings
 📚 Watch my free IFS training for clinicians - https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast
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Connect with me:
 https://www.johnclarketherapy.com/
https://www.instagram.com/johnclarketherapy/
https://www.tiktok.com/@johnclarketherapy
https://www.youtube.com/@johnclarketherapy

Grab Your Seat for the Free IFS Webinar Here: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast

➡️ Free Training - Learn how to integrate the principles of IFS into your therapy practice: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast

Transcript

Emily Barker: [00:00:00] I believe trauma can create a narcissist, and then obviously a narcissistic abuse survivor has come from a traumatic relationship. And so then, of course, what feels safe to me in a relationship going forward is to continue to do that, because that's what I've learned as care. And so that's what a lot of people have that kind of back and forth with, is this early life trauma and throughout schools and jobs, this trauma where they've learnt these mechanisms

John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist John Clarke, for guest interviews, real-life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, Going Inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.

Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at [00:01:00] johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in

My guest today is Emily Barker. Emily is the founder of Emily Jane Guidance. Emily works with people who are rebuilding their lives after trauma, difficult relationships, and major life challenges, combining her counseling training, psychology studies, and personal experience to offer practical and compassionate support.

Her mission is simple, to help people feel seen, regain their confidence, and create a future that feels truly their own. Uh, Emily, thanks for being here. What else should people know about who you are and how you got 

here? 

Emily Barker: Ah, thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, so my journey sort of started for me when I went through my own narcissistic relationship.

Um, and it kind of sent me on a spin to restudy and do something meaningful with my life. Um, and henceforth, I went back and I started studying, um, psychology. And alongside that, I thought, "Why can't this start now?" You know, "Why can't I start helping [00:02:00] people now? Why am I waiting until the end of my master's?"

Um, and so I set up my own business, which initially was guidance overall, you know? It was for people for su- support through relationships, just general life challenges. Um, but it became more narcissist sort of specific through natural ways, really. A lot of people, especially through Instagram and TikTok, jumped in online, and they had so many questions, and I think a lot of my content was quite relatable.

Um, and that kind of led me to where I am today, um, where it's kind of just spiraled into this big kind of let's focus on narcissism, and let's help people, and let's help heal people from narcissistic abuse. Um, so that's a little bit more about me. I work remotely, so I do, um, everything from home in the UK here.

Um, and I just, I am all for everything [00:03:00] wellness and everything that I can to support people. Um, so I think for me, it's hearing people's different journeys and working with them on an individual basis to help them heal from that trauma, um, and to help them sort of find themselves again so they don't end up back in that narcissistic abuse cycle.

John Clarke: Yeah. Y- you mentioned your own experience with this. Was there a moment at which you realized you were in this type of relationship? 

Emily Barker: I think for anybody going through it, there's complete denial at first. Um, and there are red flags that pop up, you know, especially at the beginning, you know, these kind of things where you get completely love bombed and you feel like this is the best relationship in the world and-- But really, those should be red flags.

But in the moment, I think if you're feeling vulnerable or perhaps, you know, you've just been through a, a traumatic life event, [00:04:00] um, in my case, you kind of cling to this sense of excitement and this person that's giving you all of this joy. But I think for me, it took leaving and going back Two to three times for me to realize that this was unhealthy.

Um, and, you know, everybody around me had recognized it and, and were kind of s- saying to me, "There's something wrong here. This isn't right." But I was hooked up in that cycle, and I'd- Yeah ... been so manipulated and, and kind of gaslit, um, at that point. So I didn't even know who I was anymore. Um, and, and again, that's why I'm so keen to help people, because it can really completely take you off your track.

So- Yeah ... in terms of answering that question, I think yes, I think it was probably only after the cycle, um, had got run its course a few times. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. Something I know from, um, working with a lot of people in various kinds [00:05:00] of abusive relationships is, um, it's that thing about that analogy about, um, boiling a frog.

You know the one? 

Emily Barker: Yeah. 

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people normalize some degree of mistreatment, and a lot of- Mm-hmm ... times it's, um, it's more mild, and then it's more moderate, and then it's more severe, and then it's very chronic. Um, but along the- Yeah ... way, we rationalize things to ourselves and we go, "This isn't that bad," or, "It only happens [00:07:00] sometimes," or, "But, um, maybe it's just me.

Maybe I am the problem." Uh, there's a lot of things we tell ourselves to kind of stay in it, usually out of the fear of leaving a relationship, what would it mean, and there would be so much shame in that, and then people would know. Um, what- whatever it might be. Um, but, but I know there's a lot of layers to the psychology of, of staying in it, and then some people- 1,000%

when they leave it, leave the relationship thinking, "Gosh, I stayed in it too long," right, out of, out of- 

Emily Barker: Yeah ... 

John Clarke: fear- 

Emily Barker: Yeah ... 

John Clarke: and gaslighting. 

Emily Barker: Absolutely, and I think it's almost, you know, linked to, and I kind of did a video on this recently, but linked to almost being a drug, you know? It's you're, you're hooked in, so you can't see past that.

All you see is, "How do I make it better?" And, and you see, as you say, you know, these ... It's not all horrific. It's just little bits that kind of get put in. So [00:08:00] you see the good parts, and you kind of say to yourself, "Actually, if I just do this, it'll get better again, like it was at the beginning." Um, and that kind of being hooked in is, is something that quite a few of my clients, you know, really struggle with that pull, is that even when you end that relationship and you say, "Okay-" this isn't healthy.

I'm gonna, you know, work on myself and work on my future. But, you know, as with the cycles of kind of narcissistic abuse, you tend to get hoovered back in, especially if you haven't done the work on yourself. I was under the impression going through it myself that you'd end it, you'd shut that door, you know, specifically after other breakups I'd been through in my life that were difficult.

But it's not that way. You don't just shut a door, you know, and, and it, it get easier and you heal in your own time because there's this post-separational abuse that also then happens. Yeah. And I think [00:09:00] that then kind of triggers people to just go back round in the cycle again. Yeah. Which is really scary.

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say more about that cycle, whether it's the, the phase of after you have left or ending up back [00:10:00] there or yeah, anything that you've, um, noticed and wanna share. 

Emily Barker: Well, I think you've obviously got the stages of narcissistic abuse. Um, so for a lot of people, you've got this idealization phase at the beginning where it's these kind of, "You're the most amazing person.

Um, I've never met anyone like you. I'm gonna give you the world." Y- you know, complete love bombing. You know, we hear this term love bombing a lot, especially now on TikTok, "Oh, he love bombed me." Um, but love bombing from a narcissist is, it's, it's cleverly curated. You know? This is something they know how to do.

Um, but then what happens is once you're feeling safe and secure, we kind of roll into this devaluation phase. Um, and that's where it starts, as you say, small. You know, this isn't a case of they come in and they say, "I don't like you. You look awful," straight away. It's just done in little bits. [00:11:00] It'll be- Yeah

"Are you really wearing that going out?" But pause. And things that start to kind of get you to question your own sense of self and your own sense of reality. Um, and that then of course builds, because at this point, when you're questioning yourself, you're questioning everything. Um, they'll have you questioning your friendships, your relationship with your family, your job.

And in my case, anyway, you kind of lose completely who you are. Um, at that point, it all gets a bit boring for them. You're not really giving them the, we call it a supply, that they need. Um, well, they'll then discard you. So you're nothing to them. You've served them purpose. You know, you've, you've helped their ego.

You've boosted their ego. You've served the purpose. And so at this point, either they discard you or you leave. You know? You get the strength and say, "I'm done," or they say, "I'm done." 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Emily Barker: You know? It doesn't, in narcissistic relationships, [00:12:00] as you know, it doesn't tend to... It's not this happy journey like a normal relationship- Yeah

where you get life ups and downs, where you do, you know? I think, um- Everybody says, "Oh, well, surely everyone's t- in a toxic relationship. Everyone who goes through a breakup will know there's a way, you know, a way of handling negative life situations together." Mm-hmm. And there's also healthy breakups, which, yes, are painful.

Um, but they don't have this kind of abuse. And after that, we kind of go back into this hoovering phase, where they have realized that actually outside these other people, you know, men or women that they've looked at, aren't really enough. They want you back. Or perhaps they see you gaining strength in yourself and finding yourself again, and that's not good enough.

So it then kind of, they know, at this point, they know all your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses, and it is so easy to play on that. Um, [00:13:00] and to hoover you back in- Yeah ... and start the cycle again. And for many people, I mean, I've had people, 20 times it's taken them throughout a lifetime together- Yeah ... of this.

Especially when we kind of talk a bit more about trauma bonding. Um, a lot of people in narcissistic relationships tend to get this, obviously, this trauma bond, where they really feel linked. There's this close link to this person. Um, and they say, "Oh- Hmm ... I c- I couldn't possibly leave them. We've been through all of this together," or, "They understand me," or, "No one else will get me."

Yeah. And so you feel this addiction, and that's again very hard to break. All of your self-esteem comes from them now. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They validate you. Um, and that's quite scary, because as I've said, if you've gone into that relationship a little bit vulnerable, by the time you've left that relationship- You have to do so much healing Yeah

so much healing. Yeah. And that [00:14:00] actually is one of my favorite parts of what I do. Um, I love to sit with clients and, and we talk a lot about possibly why they end up in these kinds of relationships. Obviously, if you're talking about the IFS and, and the early life trauma and how that can kind of, you know, how they can end up in a relationship like this.

Then you've got the relationship itself, um, and then the post-separat- rational abuse. But after that, it's rediscovering yourself, and I love chatting to my clients, where we kind of sit- Mm ... down and we've processed so much, but then we say, "Hey, where does, what does your future look like?" You know? "What, what car do you like to drive?

What, what clothes do you like to wear?" And- Yeah ... for a lot of my clients, they kind of go, "Oh, well, I don't know, because- Mm ... m- my, my ex drove a Mazda and he told me that they're the only safe cars." And so we kind of talk a little bit about, okay, well, this [00:15:00] is rebuilding ourselves. And I think at the end of that journey, when we kind of come to the end of this, talking this cycle through and really working with people, um, it's just so beautiful to see people almost having this rebirth into, into the world again.

Um, and it's extremely validating for me to know that I've helped people through that- Yeah ... especially after going through it myself. And I, I- Yeah ... I imagine with your work, that's probably that key part, too, where you really feel that you, you've been the journey with, with clients. Um, and it's just such an incredible time to see people, people go through that- Yeah

and get out the other side 

John Clarke: Yeah, I, um, you know, I deal-- I, I help a lot of clients who are leaving, um, or dealing with personal relationships that are abusive, and, uh, I've developed an unexpected, unintentional specialty of helping clients heal from [00:16:00] abusive therapists. Um, Oh my goodness. The first time was about 10 years ago, and, um, this client who was in a very vulnerable position went to their therapist, um, who took full advantage of them, uh, forced them to start coming more often, paying more, um- That's awful

and then started convincing the client that they are in fact a narcissist and an abuser. So it was this really weird projection of, of the therapist's own reality to the point where the client eventually could not tell you what their favorite color was, what kind of music they liked. Um, they had like a very favorite band, and they were telling their therapist, and then the therapist would say, "Do you really like that band?"

You know, "Do you really like the color blue?" Um, and so the client would start questioning it. And of course, the therapist is also in this position of great power. Um- Power, yeah ... but the, the therapist got the client to depend on her more, depend on her more to the point where [00:17:00] her, uh, y- you know, the, the client's sense of self completely unraveled.

And so it was a lot of the slow rebuilding of like who you are and the things you like- Mm-hmm ... and finding, uh, you know, stability in that again. But it was, it was unlike anything I've ever done or 

Emily Barker: seen- Yeah ... 

John Clarke: and just, uh, an infuriating- 

Emily Barker: Absolutely ... amount of, 

John Clarke: of abuse. Um- 

Emily Barker: I think this is- Yeah ... the thing with, with abuse is that it, it, you know, it doesn't just need to be in a relationship.

It can be from unexpected cases- Yeah ... like a therapist or a boss or a parent, um, grandparent. It, this abuse cycle goes on all over- Yeah ... and in so many different scenarios. 

John Clarke: Yeah. I guess one question I have for you is, is what do you believe the narcissist gains from all of this? 

Emily Barker: For me, and from the research I've done, it's a [00:18:00] validation for their ego.

So it's a validation. And I kind of thought I'd ask you a bit more about this IFS and parts, because obviously trauma and narcissism are completely linked together in terms of- Yeah ... I believe a trauma, trauma can create a narcissist, and then obviously a narcissistic abuse survivor has come from a traumatic relationship.

So it kind of- Yeah ... it, it's all very closely interlocked, isn't it? 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Emily Barker: Um, and so for me, it's they are validating, they're getting... Something has happened in their lives where they have had this part of themselves that needs their ego massaged, and they need to be seen as a savior. Um, they need to be seen as this person that can support you and pick you up.

So for me, it's the ego boost that they get, and it's that self-validation [00:19:00] 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Um, so the IFS piece, you know, um, it, even though IFS is kind of anti-pathology and anti-diagnosis, um, it can be helpful to... I mean, we're talking about a diagnosis right now of- Mm-hmm ... what the DSM would call narcissistic personality disorder.

And, uh, you know, in IFS we have polarization, so at some point a part, uh, there was so much hurt in the system that a protective part took on this role of being mean and manipulative and degrading and controlling. Um, in the case of, um, you know, personality disorders, we see them as extreme polarizations with not a lot of access to, to self, and they tend to be pervasive, meaning they get worse and they're very treatment resistant, and I find that to be, uh, very true.

These are enduring patterns. These are enduring personality patterns, um- Mm-hmm ... that tend [00:20:00] to get worse over time. In, in my experience, you know, dealing with the, uh, the, an actual narcissist or someone with, let's say, borderline personality disorder, um, you really need a true specialist, you know- Mm-hmm ... for, for that.

It's, it's work- Absolutely ... that I, um, don't claim to, to do. I tend to work with a lot of the victims, it seems. But, um- Me 

Emily Barker: too. Yeah ... 

John Clarke: there's- 

Emily Barker: Absolutely ... y- 

John Clarke: you know, 'cause part of it is the lack of awareness and the lack of ability to see one's self humbly, or that the narcissist is capable of causing harm and is actually, um, come, that, and that comes from an extremely hurt place.

You know, the bully on the playground tends to be the one who carries the most hurt, and so they externalize it. 1000%. So we kind of see it that way. Um, whether a- I do feel that kind of- ... diagnosis or a, a label- Yeah ... can be extremely threatening to a, a person who- 100% ... you know, deeply is, is- 

Emily Barker: It probably could

John Clarke: guilty of this. Um, [00:21:00] you know, if, if- Yeah ... you were to tell me, um, uh, you know, I'm really tall, so if you were to accuse me of being really short, I wouldn't be offended 'cause I know that- Mm-hmm ... to not be true about myself, you know? 1000%. If someone's, like, deeply offended about, uh, potential, uh, traits of narcissism or borderline, um, s- that can be diagnostic in itself.

But- Anyway, that's- 

Emily Barker: I think it's quite scary when... Yeah, no, no, no, that's really interesting, and I think it's, for me, what is quite scary, and when you look at the patterns of, of narcissists and the relationships they go into, a lot of the kind of people that go through the abuse, their ca- you know, character types tend to be that of somebody wanting to- 

John Clarke: Yeah

Emily Barker: oh, I can fix the narcissist. I, I see their hurt. Yeah. You know, I see their hurt. A- and so that, that can be quite scary linking those two different personalities together. Yeah. Um, [00:22:00] because somebody who wasn't as empathetic perhaps would come in, they'd go on a few dates, and they'd say, "Hang on a second.

This is not right. You don't speak to me like this," and off they go. But where you have people that are very in-depth and, um, empathetic and really kind of sensitive to feeling and emotion, that's when there's the problem because they come in and they say, "I see, I see my partner, and I see what they've been through, so I excuse their behavior."

Yeah. You know, I excuse that they, they threw that cup across the room because they, that's what they saw growing up, growing up, you know? Yeah. Or I excuse the way that they spoke to me because they've just had a really hard day. And, and so they're almost feeding this. Yeah. They're, they're feeding their own cycle, which- Right

is where, as you know, that self-work [00:23:00] for the sort of abuse survivor is really important. Um- Right ... and actually for a lot of people to admit that they've been in an abusive relationship is- Yeah ... really, really hard to do because they will still continue to make excuses- Yeah ... for that other person. 

John Clarke: Yeah.

It's, it's, um, it's, it's fascinating, um- Yeah, I just lost my train of thought, but you should keep going 

Emily Barker: No, it is, it is, it is interesting. I think, I think, um, the way that these kind of, these cycles go and the way that they keep fee- feeding and fueling and going round and around again is interesting. But I think when you go back and you look at these, as you say, parts of people- Yeah

you know, and why they are the way that they are, you know, why have they kind of taken on these... Why, why am I so empathetic? Is it because, you know, when I was younger, actually my mother [00:24:00] was bipolar, and so I was really in tune with her ups and downs, and I realized- Yeah ... that it was all on me to look after her.

And so then, of course, what feels safe to me in a relationship going forward is to continue to do that, because that's what I've learned as care. And so that's what a lot of, of people have that kind of back and forth with is this early life trauma and, and not just early life trauma, you know, throughout schools, um, in jobs, this trauma where they've, they've learnt these mechanisms.

They have learnt these things to protect themselves. Um, and so all they're trying to do is do good, you know, and do right. Yeah. And, and it, and it can be really hard to reshape those and use those skill sets for good, you know? They think that- Yeah ... they're helping, but actually they're just feeding 

John Clarke: Yeah, it's-- You know, I do a lot of teaching and training [00:25:00] of therapists in, in my group practice.

And so as an exercise, I encourage them to think about everything that's coming out of your client's mouth, filter it through the lens of how is what they are saying or doing helping them keep connection or not lose connection. So if a way to keep or not lose connection was to be that mediator or to soothe the person who was hurting you growing up or the person whose moods were erratic, then you will, of course, find that most familiar.

Um, I, I'm also-- You know, I thought of-- I remember what I was gonna say earlier, which is a question I will ask the person, the client, is, um, "Tell me about the parts of you that feel or fear that you deserve this, that you deserve this abuse, that you deserve, um, being, uh, belittled or controlled or made fun of or even [00:26:00] physically harmed or whatever."

Mm-hmm. Um, my sense is that until we really bring forward and invite forward and then get to know and heal those parts, um, that are seeking it out unconsciously, the, the pattern will continue, and they will-- people will end up right back in that relationship, and they will even have an awareness of it and go, "I don't know why I'm with another abusive person, but I am."

1000%. "I'm the one who can't, can't quit that person or quit this kind of archetype." Um, and so I think until that, that healing is done at the source, it's, it's gonna be, uh, quite tempting to go back because it's familiar. And 

Emily Barker: it's not easy. And it's not easy to sit with those uncomfortable truths or those feelings about yourself or to sit with yourself and understand why those patterns are happening.

And I think- Yeah ... you know, uh, in my case, I put it off for so long because I actually wasn't ready yet. [00:27:00] Um- 

John Clarke: Yeah ... 

Emily Barker: and it, it take-- it can take quite a lot for people to get there, and that's why I always say, you know, if you're leaving for the third time or the 20th time I will still have patience for you.

You know? I, I think I... family and friends and relatives, because they don't understand the pattern, after one or two cycles of this can say, "Enough." Yeah. "I'm done. You've not left them. You're back with them again." Th- because they're looking at it from a very logical point of view. They aren't under- understanding the emotion behind it.

And of course, the frustrating thing about that is for the victim, they are then losing friends and family, and they need those friends and family more than ever. Um- Yeah ... and so to know that there is support out there of- Yeah ... people that understand it is really important. [00:28:00] 

John Clarke: Th- this can be deceptively hard for practitioners, and, um, this happens with, with my clinicians who are newer to the work or clinicians who are quite seasoned, is bearing witness to a person who is stuck in this pattern or is in a position of, again, knowing they need to change, whether it's with this or quitting alcohol or whatever, and not doing it.

And so it can be very deceptively difficult for the therapist to just witness and give them time and meet the client- Absolutely ... where they are, literally, which might be not changing or just thinking about changing or starting to develop a plan. And that plan might be a three-week plan, it might be a three-year plan, um, or anywhere in between.

And so it can be very difficult to just track them and be with them and honor where they're at in the, in that change process or that leaving process. But it's essential that you meet them where they are, because everyone else in their life is looking [00:29:00] at them and yelling, "Get the hell out of there. What are you doing?

Why haven't you left by now? This is ridiculous." And so the shame, you know, kicks in again and, um, they feel, uh, judged by people, and some part of them knows they should get out, and some part of them feels- Yeah ... terrified to even think about getting out, or the wrath of trying to get out might be way worse than just staying in it or hanging in there, right?

Or waiting for a time where their partner's in a good mood again or whatever. 

Emily Barker: I think there's, um, a part in the film Eat Pray Love where, which I, I love by the way, anything spiritual or kind of where you reconnect with yourself like that. Um, but there's a part where I think, um, Elizabeth Gilbert says something along the lines of, "I almost wanted to stay with you in unhappiness just so that we didn't have to part."

Yeah. And I think that happens so many times over because actually people feel safe [00:30:00] in that unhappiness. It's what they know. Um- Yeah ... and so that's, that's harder than restarting, and restarting all over again is scary, um- Yeah ... for a person without children, but when you add having children into the mix, um, all these feelings can fly up.

You know, am I doing right by them? Am I letting th- my children down? Am I... Um, so people bounce back and forth. Well, if at least if I stay- Yeah ... I'll be showing my children that my fa- their family is together. Um, and as we spoke about at the beginning with narcissists or people with narcissistic personality disorder or strong narcissistic traits- It's very, very hard for them to change, and they have to be willing and, uh, accepting themselves that there is a problem.

Mm-hmm. And so it's very hard for you to kind of go to relationship counseling with somebody [00:31:00] who's in complete denial. Mm. And they're there-- And I've also heard of cases where the narcissist has then manipulated the therapist. Mm. You know? Uh, so it can be quite-- it can be really, really scary, the thought of stepping out and saying, "I'm going to change," because- 

John Clarke: Yep

Emily Barker: it's not just like a normal breakup where you say, "We'll spend some time apart. We'll see each other around. It'll be hard, but over time it will get easier." Um, it, it, there are so many more layers, you know? And especially, as I said before, there's post-separational abuse when we come into talking about financial abuse, you know?

Um, it might be that they've got control of the money, and naively you've thought, "Actually, it's okay. I'll, I'll let them because they're looking after me." Yeah. And so people then find themselves in an extremely vulnerable situation, or their, perhaps their name isn't put on the title deeds [00:32:00] of the house- 

John Clarke: Yeah

Emily Barker: out of control. Yeah. So people are left feeling, "Well, what do I, where do I go from here?" Um- Well, and sometimes the- ... and something- ... 

John Clarke: the abuse does get way worse on the way out or once you're- Yes ... actually leaving because the narcissist has lost control and lost their grip of you. 1,000%. And so they feel so out of control and so small that we'll do just about anything to, um, feel big and in control again.

And so, uh, helping a person brace themselves for what's to come is important. And also- Mm-hmm ... when you leave, when you say you're gonna leave, leaving and sticking to that. And, um, it's, it's an interesting thing, right? 'Cause when there's kids involved, yeah, on one hand you could show them that like family sticks together.

On the other hand, you could accidentally show them that, um, when people abuse you, you stay and you- Mm-hmm ... deserve it, basically. And so the kids [00:33:00] implicitly learn, "I must deserve that, too. I deserve being yelled at and belittled and controlled." And so then they go on to inherit those same wounds and seek those same partners.

Emily Barker: There was a really beautiful book, um, that I read to my children when I was going through divorce, um, that was all about families don't need to be a man, a woman, a white picket fence, and, uh, two dogs. Um, and it was really beautiful because it was all about love and what love is. And actually, I try to lead towards my children to show them that love can be love for yourself- Yeah

love can be love in a blended family, love can be love for others. But what you shouldn't accept is somebody treating you disrespectfully- Yeah ... or, you know? And so I like to hope that when they grow up, they will [00:34:00] take that with them, and that they will not just go for the white picket fence and- 

John Clarke: Yeah

Emily Barker: think that, okay, to the outside world, everything looks okay, but inside here, I'm hurting, you know? And I think- Yeah ... I think in this day and age, relationships, I mean, there's obviously a particularly high divorce rate, um, in modern day. I think we're going through a real time of change where people are discovering themselves, um, and people are discovering what's healthy and what's good for them.

Um, it would be really interesting to see how the next generation come about marriage- Yeah ... and relationships, you know? Whether they... Hopefully, we're managing to equip the new generation with some tools for understanding, you know, what, what is a healthy relationship. Yeah. And I think through, you know, TikTok and, and social media, whilst I'm not for it for younger children, I think positive content- Yeah

for [00:35:00] teens and young adults is really important. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah 

Emily Barker: And relate to, you know, content they can relate to and understand. Um, and for people to not feel alone. I think that's one of the benefits of being able to be online, um, is that when you are going through this breakup, and obviously your friends and family are frustrated at you because they can't understand why this is happening again, to know that you're not alone and to know that other people are going through it, um- 

John Clarke: Yeah, 

Emily Barker: yeah

is, is really important. So that building that network, building that network around you of people who understand. Um, and that's kind of what one of my big aims to do. I am planning some wellness retreats, but they will be specifically healing from narcissistic relationships and traumatic relationships, and I want [00:36:00] it to kind of go above and beyond from your usual just yoga and wellness.

I want it to really bring people together, you know, who have suffered from the, these relationships and, and try and bring some kind of positivity to- Mm-hmm ... to the world. Um, and that I hope is gonna be the aim, so watch this space. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Emily Barker: Watch this space for that. 

John Clarke: All right. That, um, might be a good place for us to, to kinda land on here.

So, um, yeah, maybe just to wrap us up here, you can say a little more about, um, yeah, how you help people and then how they can, uh, reach out and get in touch with you. 

Emily Barker: Sure. Absolutely. So I am @emilyjaneguidence on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. Um, and I am on emilyjaneguidence.com. Um, I offer one-to-one support, but also group based, um, kind of webinars and, and talks, and as I've said, I will be offering these retreats.

Um, so if that's something [00:37:00] people are interested in, I'd... in, I'd definitely love some feedback. Um, and it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you, John. I love listening to your, your podcast and your, um, guided meditations and all the things that you provide because you're putting so much goodness out into the world.

So thank you for having me on and being part of that. 

John Clarke: Yeah. My pleasure. Thanks for doing this, especially here at the end of your day, at the start of mine. Um, and, uh, yeah, we'll put links to everything in the show notes and description as always, and, um, thank you again for being here. 

Emily Barker: Thank you so much.

John Clarke: Thanks, Emily. Take care. 

Emily Barker: Take care. Bye bye.

John Clarke: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok @ johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.

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