135: Tour Divide: An Epic 2,716 mile race that changed me forever. GUEST Cary Hayes

A month alone on a bike will tell you the truth about your limits. Our guest, Carrie Hayes, just finished the Tour Divide, the legendary ultra endurance bikepacking race that follows the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route from Banff, Alberta all the way to the US Mexico border. His final tally is staggering: 2,716 miles with 172,000 feet of climbing in 27 and a half days, often riding 100 plus miles a day through remote stretches of Canada, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico. 

We talk about what you cannot learn from a spreadsheet: the day one shock of cold rain and isolation, the unsexy reality of saddle sores and hygiene, and the mental shift from planning everything to staying present in two hour chunks. Carrie also shares how he met Jerry, a stranger on the trail who became an unspoken teammate, and why that kind of companionship can be the difference between finishing and folding when the wilderness gets loud. 

Then the story opens up into something bigger than sport: trail angels who build trust based resupply havens, the “dot watching” world of Trackleaders and Garmin inReach tracking, and the surprising generosity of people who show up with coolers in the middle of nowhere. Carrie ties the ride to purpose by raising nearly $100,000 for the Honnold Foundation, supporting community solar and clean energy projects where they matter most. 

If this conversation sparks something you have been putting off, share it with a friend, subscribe, and leave a review. What hard thing are you ready to try next?

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Transcript

Polly Mertens 0:27

Hey, superstars. Welcome back. Polly here and no Samantha Pruitt, but today we have a special guest I am super excited about. We were chatting a little bit before you came on. Welcome, Carrie Hayes, my friend. What's up, Polly? Nice to be here. Nice to see you. I know. Thank you for joining us. And I want to tell people a

Welcome And Carrie’s Backstory

Polly Mertens 0:46

little bit about who you how you and I know each other, and then why I invited you on this podcast, because there's something really fun and I would just say absolutely epic that you've just gotten up to that I I was like, I was like watching you do it. And I was like, I have got probably bursting with it. So Carrie Hayes and I worked at REC Solar. That was what it was called back in the day, anyway, in San Luis Obispo. We were probably like almost 15 years ago, something like that. Yeah, a long time ago, another lifetime. And we were in the sales team back then, and we've just stayed loosely connected through social media. I actually came out and saw you in Colorado when I was traveling through on my fun bus.

Cary Hayes 1:30

Yes, yes, fun bus.

Polly Mertens 1:32

Yes. So you, I'm just gonna tell a little bit about you so we can kind of set stage of like who you are and feel free to share anything more. But you are all things solar in my mind. I mean, you are now the president of our RAC Americas, which is like epic, you know, huge international company. You are passionate about solar. I've seen you, you know, shaking hands, I think, with the governor in Colorado, I think it was at one point. You know, you are just a leader in the solar space. And yep. Do you can say something about that?

Cary Hayes 2:01

Well, like they call me, you know, it's crazy, right? The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, and solar coaster continues to amaze. 25 years into it, yeah, it's quite the wild ride, as you as you remember from the old days. But no, it's been the industry's great. It's been a fun industry to be part of for a long time, and I'm really fortunate to be part of it.

Polly Mertens 2:24

And in addition to all that you're up to for our planet and something that you believe in, like solar, you're just a great freaking human, you know. I mean, I just really appreciate who you are for your family. You have three beautiful children, a wife. You live in Boulder, Colorado. I just want to set the stage for, you know, like who you are and where you are in the world and and a little bit of that.

Cary Hayes 2:44

But my kids are at the dentist right now, and I just got a text that they each have four cavities.

Polly Mertens 2:49

So apparently I'm not doing something right in the mighty to take you down from an A dad to an A minus, maybe. Well, you have just awesome project is our podcast. And anybody who's listening to this, what we really like to bring is stories of people that are, you know, like you would say, like you're not like some movie star or you know, author of you know, some bestselling, whatever, but like up to epic stuff in your life. And that's what we want to help people like make that jump for themselves is you can be just you know, in a family, in a job, having a good life, and you can get out there and do things that just light your soul on fire. And that's where you or I looking from the outside in, you have just completed. I'm gonna give a little bit of stats and you please fill in. You've just completed the tour divide, which is a race from Banff, Canada. So it's basically Canadian border to the Mexican border, right? Down to New Mexico.

Cary Hayes 3:50

Actually, Banff is like about three days north of the border, so it's about 250-ish miles

Tour Divide Explained With Key Stats

Cary Hayes 3:57

north of the Montana border. So yeah, it's from Banff, Alberta all the way down to the border wall between New Mexico and Mexico. Just uh yes, wells.

Polly Mertens 4:11

And I didn't realize it was a race. Like I had seen a documentary on the tour divide, a couple of gentlemen, like this was probably like three months ago, and then to hear you were doing, I was like, okay, where he's doing that thing. And then I found out, oh, this is a race. I was like, yeah, wow.

Cary Hayes 4:25

It's wild that it is a race, and people, I mean, it's it's it's absolutely astounding how fast people can do this. I finished it 27 days, 27 and a half days, but the winner finished in 11 days. This guy, this young guy, like in his 20s from France, who just sieged it and didn't sleep.

Polly Mertens 4:45

Wow.

Cary Hayes 4:46

He was the men winner, and then the women winner was this woman named Megan Hackenan, who I loosely know, and she did it in 15 days, which is also just like it's hard for the mind to comprehend that scale of distance to go that fast, but people do it really fast. It's crazy.

Polly Mertens 5:05

I you know, there's just record-breaking stuff going on in the human family all over the place. I just saw someone do some other record-breaking. This woman did some ultra run in like beat the men, beat the one, beat them all, you know, kind of thing. It's like, whoa. So just to finish, I just have to throw these stats in there because it's so mind-blowing. I mean, you know, you're probably your mind was probably like stretched when you first started because you've done there's a race that I know you've done, the Leadville 100, which is probably one of the toughest damn mountain races, biking races you can do, I would say, through Leadville, Colorado, 10,000 feet elevation plus, right?

Cary Hayes 5:43

Yeah.

Polly Mertens 5:43

Yeah. Just did that six times, you know.

Cary Hayes 5:46

Well, that for me, Leadville was like the gold standard. I mean, that's uh kind of segues into the mindset. But Leadville was always like the thing, like that was the hardest thing. It was like, let's go do Leadville to train for Leadville. That was like the focal point of the year. Start training in January every year. I spent a decade of my life chasing Leadville. And I'm actually gonna go do it in three weeks' time. Oh, in the best shape of my life right now. Wow. Yeah. Then once I kind of got bored of Leadville, I was sort of looking for the next thing, and that's what led me to tour divide.

Polly Mertens 6:20

Wow. So so okay, let me just throw the stats in here. So, you know, we talk about elevation gain oftentimes in races, whether it's a hiking, trekking thing, ultra race, or mountain biking. 200,000 feet of elevation gain, 27 plus 100 miles.

Cary Hayes 6:37

Yeah, a little, a little less. So my Garmin, I actually added up my Garmin stats for the ride the other night as I was sitting around dreaming about Tour Divide. The final stats for me were 2,716 miles traveled and 172,000 feet of climbing. Climbing.

Polly Mertens 6:55

Wow.

Cary Hayes 6:57

It's a lot of climbing. If you imagine it this way, yeah, the tour divide basically goes down the continental divide from Canada to Mexico. And when it as it does, it basically just leaps frogs over the mountains back and forth all the way down the divide. That's I think the best way to think about it. So you're just every day you're going up one pass, down the next, up the other, and down the next. And you just do that every day for a month. Or some people two weeks, 14 days, or some pretty the hills get smaller, the mountains get smaller as you go south, especially as you get into New Mexico.

Polly Mertens 7:35

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 7:36

Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado. Yeah. And then by the time you get to New Mexico, they get smaller, but they're still there. Yeah. So that's quite a bit of every day, is about between six and ten thousand feet of climbing.

Polly Mertens 7:53

Just stop. Okay. Wow. Okay. So you've done Leadville six times, and you're like, what's next? So how did you hear about this? And you know, my question is like, when did you go? Oh, that's insane. Or, oh, that'd be cool too. I'm doing this. Like, walk me through that journey.

Cary Hayes 8:11

So I did Leadville a bunch, and then there was a movie that was made about Tour Divide. It's called Ride the Divide. And it was like this like kind of like underground movie. I think it came out like 20 years ago, early 2000s. And that's what kind of put Tour Divide on the map. So Tour Divide is a race on a route that's called the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route. So the American Cycling Association, with great folks I know who have an office up in Missoula, Montana, they created the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route. And they created it around 2000. So about 26 years ago, is when the route was made. They they sent all these people out and a couple guys kind of pioneered it. But they basically linked like dirt roads and single track in deep in the backcountry, like deep, deep in the backcountry to make this route. So it was like an amazing creation. And then this guy came along, his name is Matthew Lee, and he came along a few years later, and he essentially raced it. Like, and I at the time, I think there was only like 10 people who were like part of the race or even less. And he made a movie about it, which you can go see. It's called Ride the Divide. It's like the original cult classic movie.

Polly Mertens 9:24

Wow.

Cary Hayes 9:25

I had seen that movie a long time ago, so it was in the back of my mind. And then there's like these YouTubers. Well, there's a guy locally here in Boulder named Ryan Van Duzer, who's a big YouTuber guy, a big outdoor guy, and a and a bike backing guy. I kind of got to know him over the last few years, kind of irregardless of this. And he started talking about it. He's he's done it and was going up to do it again. He doesn't like racing it, he just liked to go up and tour the route for take three months to do it.

Polly Mertens 9:55

Wow.

Cary Hayes 9:55

Um, so I started watching YouTube and then I was like also searching because I was bored of Leadville and I was sort of searching like what's the next thing? And I was like, Well, I think I could do it. Like, can I do it? I'm not sure I could do it. So it seemed like like an amazing challenge to bite off. Yeah. At least go try. And I was really fortunate to to finish. So yeah.

Polly Mertens 10:23

So there was like a tipping point. So, you know, you've got children, you've got a big job, right? Responsibilities, life, you know, is good, right? Like, like, you know, life is it wasn't like, oh, you know, you were what what had you go, you know what, I'm gonna do this like for me, or

The Moment He Commits To Go

Polly Mertens 10:42

like, like you said, like the next challenge. And how was it like telling your family, or or how did that like first couple of conversations, you know, your wife is a mountain biker. So of course she's kind of like, yeah, I know Carrie's a little crazy out there, but you know, like that's a good question.

Cary Hayes 10:54

So it actually came about, it was it had been planted in my mind to go do it. I I wanted to do it. And then about sometime last fall, probably about a year ago, I had sort of in my mind, it was brewing in my mind, like, what would it take? Could I do this? What kind of bike would I start to think through like the gear requirements? I started to like, and my personality is such, my wife would tell you this, or people very close to me would tell you this that I get real obsessive about things at times. I'm kind of monofocused for what I'm ever hunting this thing. And then I kind of go in like these cycles where I lose interest, and then I move on to the next thing. So I got kind of monofocused on tour divide. My wife knew it, and then we were sitting in the car, and I was like, I think I can't remember where we're going. I think we were driving up to crested beat or something. But we were in the car, we're having a conversation in the car. She was driving, I was actually sitting shotgun. And I was like, you know, I I kind of want to go do this tour divide one, you know, sometime, maybe one of these years when we get some more time or whatever. And there was like a long pause in the conversation. I think she was processing or something. I haven't really debriefed with her on this yet. I probably should. And she came back at me and she's like, Well, you're not getting any younger, dude. You're 55, you're about to be 56. Maybe you should do it sooner than later. And the second those words came out of her mouth, I was like, Yeah, how about this summer? I'm in. Did you save me a hall pass? I think you did. Nice. Well, yeah, that was sort of like the tacit approval.

Polly Mertens 12:30

Wow.

Cary Hayes 12:30

And then my REC, my work could not have been more supportive. Not only did they give me the time off to go do it, but they embraced it. And we created a whole social media campaign campaign around it and all the things. But part of my mentality going into it is, and I learned this from Alex actually, from Alex Honnold. I wanted to combine a big adventure, but I wanted to have some purpose too. Like it was a little too hedonistic and too selfish in a way to just be, I'm gonna go for this big ride. So I tried to combine, combine it with a with a fundraising effort, which went real well for the Honnold Foundation, where I'm a board member, or I'm an impact advisor, I guess is the right way to say it. I've been part of Hunnold for a long time and that group, it's a great group of people. So we made it a fundraising thing, and I did a whole social media thing, which was super fun for me, and I think for everyone watching. And we ended up raising close to $100,000, which is amazing.

Polly Mertens 13:26

Wow.

Cary Hayes 13:27

So all that was like super fun. But yeah, tour divide is really, it's really something. It's really something.

Polly Mertens 13:34

So I'm not hearing in that, you know, like some people have well, I mean, having Leadville in your back pocket, you know, so you knew you could do some hard things, right? So there wasn't like this, oh, you know, just some people getting to the race of Leadville 100, right? Like that's a big mindset shift from whether so my podcast co-host, Samantha, she's a ex-couch potato turned ultra marathoner, right? Or ultra runner. So like she knows like that overcoming the mindset and stuff didn't sound like there was any limitations other than like, do I have a, you know, like how how would my family or my community support this? And you like, boom, it was there wasn't any necessary limitation. You were like curious, like, I wonder if I could, I wonder if I could, but like willing to try it. So not doesn't sound like there was some hardcore overcoming or like I gotta ramp up for this or fears or whatnot, beliefs.

Cary Hayes 14:24

Well, I don't know. I mean, I yeah, it was, I mean, going into it, like I was generally it's it's hard to know like what you're capable of because that the tour divide is so crazy and gnarly, yeah, you can't really train for it, like in a way. Like Leadville, or like a normal, like go out

Training For The Untrainable Challenge

Cary Hayes 14:44

and do a century ride or do a ultra marathon, like what like normal stuff that we all do, marathons or ultra marathons or whatever. You know, you sort of train for those. Like there's training plans, there's coaches, and you can break it down to here's your FTP and your watts, like all the stuff, right? And I've done that for years, so I'm very familiar with how that works. But like Tour Divides a whole different animal because it's combining essentially like wilderness travel survival kind of skills in a way with like hardcore cycling. Yeah, so it's not just the cycling, it's a lot more. And I sort of tapped into all my years of outdoor camping and just backcountry experience. But the the like the tactical reality is this like you you don't go train to go ride a hundred plus miles a day with 8,000 five feet of climbing a day. You can't really train for that. Like, but you're gonna go out and do that for a week in a row, like, no, you just don't do that, right? That's what you do on Tour Divide. So it's like my training was actually not great for Tour Divide because I had great, it was quite warm in Colorado this winter. It was a terrible winter for skiing, whatever, but it was warm, so I got to ride my bike pretty much all winter out of Boulder, which is so rode a ton, but like lots of zone one, zone two, like low, low intensity longer rides. And then I think I went on like three quote unquote long rides, which in my old life was a hundred miles, like huge, yeah. It's like you do that like once a month, right? You go on like a hundred mile ride with like you know, 6,000 feet of climbing, and it's a 10 hour or 11-hour thing, and like that's a big deal. So I did that. And I did three of those, so I felt pretty good about myself. Like, oh okay, well, I've sort of simulated what a day on the tour divide is like. Yeah, no, that's um like in retrospect, maybe I did it right because I was like decently rested coming in, and a guy I know also did the tour and didn't finish, and he, in my estimation, probably over-trained doing 150 mile rides and just pounding himself to death all last spring, and then he blew up in the race and couldn't finish for a variety of reasons. So maybe I did it right by yeah, it my own way, but yeah, it's it's super hard to train for that kind of effort, right? I guess is the point.

Polly Mertens 17:12

So let's talk a little bit of like, okay, I and I get you. Like I remember doing, and I've only done, have I done more than one? I'm I have to think about it. I've only done one multi-day race, you know. So I did a the Trans Rockies race, which was running six days, you know, across, right? And you're right. Like you think, like I would do like one back to back or something like that. And I was like, wow, what what is it gonna be like? Six days just getting up over and over again, like let alone 27. I was just thinking about you in that saddle. I was like, you know, I can't, you're you probably weren't sharing all of the you know, uncomfortableness and in places.

Cary Hayes 17:46

Listen, butt health was number one. I was told this by Ryan Van Duzer, and this was actually probably one of the best things I did in the lead up to the race. Ryan has done Tour Divide, I think, three times.

Polly Mertens 18:01

Wow.

Cary Hayes 18:02

Uh well he's he's actually ridden the Great Divide mountain bike, right? Three times. He tried to race it once and didn't

Saddle Sores, Calories, And Weight Loss

Cary Hayes 18:07

make it, and he didn't make it because of Saddle Sores. Saddles are a huge deal on long distance efforts like that. Everyone gets them. Totally and you have to manage them, and there's no there's no way around it, right? You're going to have some butt problems along the way. It just comes with the territory.

Polly Mertens 18:24

Totally.

Cary Hayes 18:25

So I spent a lot of time pre-race thinking about seats, trying different seats, thinking about all that, and then and I got the right seat, which is this infinity seat, which I got from this guy in Southern California, which works perfectly for long distance riding. Still, you still get sores, it's not bulletproof, but it's way better than the alternative. And then during the race, I was very diligent, right? I knew butt health was number one, and so yeah, if I wasn't, you know, sometimes I think six, seven, eight nights, I was in a at a cabin or a hotel where I could take a shower so I can clean down there, and that's great. When I was camping, which was most of it, I would take these wipes called dude wipes, and I would wipe down there and make sure everything was clean. And then I would put on these creams. I had different creams for different things, and let it heal overnight and then reset the next day. So I was very diligent. I knew butt health was number one. And I would argue, I don't know the stats, but I talked to so many people who dropped out because of saddle sores. It's a huge, it's a huge thing.

Polly Mertens 19:31

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like ultra runners living toenails and you know, just feet blowing up and swelling and all sorts of things. So the saddle for a mountain biker is everything. I mean, so you were so tell us a little bit about the days, right? So some of the things I saw. I think you were trying to average like 100, 110 miles a day. And I think you were quoting like 6,000 feet. Like I remember seeing one day, you're like, oh, some, some it was you're in the 80s or 90s or something like that. And you're like, oh, I've got to, you know, ramp back up and stuff. So tell us about a day. Like just walk us through. Yeah.

Cary Hayes 20:06

Yeah. So it evolved into every day was the goal was 100, 110 miles. Every day had about between, like I said, six and nine thousand feet of climbing, generally speaking. So every day is a huge day. Basically, I had the way I thought about it in my mind was every day is the biggest day you've ever had on a bike.

Polly Mertens 20:23

Wow.

Cary Hayes 20:24

And like this consecutively. Like

Day One Reality Check In The Rain

Cary Hayes 20:26

so I would say it got easier. Like the first day, I'll tell you about the first day, was a huge slap in the face. I had all these spreadsheets, and I had this big plan going in, like you do, right? Right. Because you geek out and you research the stuff. And I had my spreadsheet about where I'm gonna camp and what hotels I could go to and where I'm gonna be on certain nights, and I had laid it all out, and I had looked at all these different YouTube videos of people who'd done it and all these things, right? Day one at the starting line, it's 38 degrees with moderate rain. So that was a tough start. And so about two hours into it, you do these wave starts. There's only 270 people that started, and I think about a hundred finished. So more than 50% drop out along the way. But like they do like a staggered start. So like every like groups of like 30 people depart, like maybe 10 minutes apart from this park and bamf. So we take off, it's like kind of lightly raining, and like an hour or two later, I'm totally by myself. I'm like in the Canadian wilderness down this like river, it's called the spray trail, like a modified single track, and I'm like alone in the woods. It's this is not Leadville, right? This is not like bells and whistles guys, and you know, people were cheering you on and totally solo in the rain. I'm like, wow, this is intense.

Polly Mertens 21:53

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 21:54

So that day evolved into like it rained all day. You know, I knew I needed to go about 100 miles, so I did. I saw some other people that day and kind of leapfrogged some other people. I got lost for like 10 minutes. I kind of came back. It rained and rained and rained. The road was all muddy and wet, it was hard to go. I got about 100 miles in. We just shot like 95 miles, and I camped at this like. Little spot. I hadn't seen anyone in a couple hours. So I was like, I'm just gonna camp here. And I was on the route. You have your route on the Garmin, right? You see your map. So like I knew I was on route. So I was okay. But that start like that that factor, that sort of isolation factor is a real thing. But anyway, I camped. I remember I was sitting in my tent. It was like lightly raining on my tent. And I'm sitting there going, Oh my god, here I am. It's so hard. Like, is it gonna be like this the whole way?

Polly Mertens 22:50

Wow.

Cary Hayes 22:50

This is like hard. That was a hard day. Like by yourself for a lot of it, in the rain, up six, eight thousand feet that day, multiple little passes we went over that day one. It was hard. And so that was like a rude wake-up call in a good way for me. Sort of set the stage for what it's gonna take. It's one thing on a spreadsheet, it's completely different in real life, right?

Polly Mertens 23:18

You're like, oh yeah, 100, yeah, right. And and you sound like somebody like me, like you would watch other people's videos and kind of like take in what you could and prepare yourself, you know, as best as possible. But you're right, like you don't know, you don't you you know, and the thing see, I was gonna ask you like some of the things that surprised you, and it sounds a little bit like races you've done were and some of them can be supported. I you know, I think Leadville probably has you know stations and whatnot and cheering and fans and you go home that night and you know, whatever. Sure. None of that, none of that.

Cary Hayes 23:49

No, you're truly you're really on your own out there. That's I knew going in that it was like a it's a combination of you need the physical to be able to do it, but really a lot of it's mental to be able to just get up every morning, rationalize you're gonna go on the biggest ride of your life that day, do it, stay in it, and then do it again the next day, and do it again the next day, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day for as long as you can think. Many times, like early that first week, I was like making the mistake mentally of like, okay, so I'm here right now. I'm traveling at like, you know, eight and a half miles an hour, according to my Garmin, like on average is my average speed. So that means I'll be here by then, which means I can be in this town tonight and I might get a hotel there. And every time I would start doing that, boom, I would get slapped with something. The wind starts blowing 30 miles an hour in your face. It starts raining. There's trees down over the trail, there's a river crossing, you can't there's a private pro there's barbed wire across the trail. You can't go like any number of things would blow up that we got in peanut butter mud, like all of it. So every time I did that and tried to plan, boom, never worked. So then I realized, okay, this is really about staying in the moment, like really in the next hour or two window. Wow, that's all I can really think about. So there was heavy intensity for me, and that was part of like coming down out of it, was is hard, it's still hard. It's getting easier now, but it's like really hard because I was so it was super intense every day because I was living in these like you know two-hour windows of like, okay, I just need to think about the next couple hours. I'm gonna go up this pass, and maybe it's gonna take four or five hours to get up it, but I'm gonna stay in there, right? And that's all I can really think about because I can't really plan because I don't know what the external variables are and so on and so forth. So yeah, there was a lot to it for sure. But it did get easier. Like for me, it was like the first week was real hard, real hard. And then two things happened. One, my body got used to it in a way, and my more well, I'll say my morning routine was two Advil, which was great, and and two electrolyte pills. Yeah, because the electrolytes were huge for me, and those really worked. So that was my morning, my morning pill taking. But on day eight on this mountain called Lava Mountain in Montana, I basically met a guy named his name's Jerry Seeger, Jerry, and he kind of became my partner for the rest of the ride. And uh we never said that we were gonna be partners, we never said

Meeting Jerry And Riding As A Team

Cary Hayes 26:39

like, hey, let's ride the rest of this together, but that's the way it worked out, and we became very like compatible, we're very different people, but it was great to have someone like that. We both commented multiple times to other people that I probably wouldn't have finished without him, and he probably wouldn't have finished without me. Because it it's so hard mentally to be that far out there and that deep in the woods every day for like a long time to be able to. There's like a safety factor to it, but there's also just like a companionship factor to it, right? So meeting Jerry was a great thing. If I ever write a book about this, I've already got the title. It's called Three Weeks with Jerry. But he was great. I mean, I met amazing people who were both racers plus community, which I guess is amazing.

Polly Mertens 27:41

Wow.

Cary Hayes 27:41

But yeah, Jerry was a key, a key guy in my adventure with me for sure.

Polly Mertens 27:46

Wow, it's like your little trail angel or your yeah, just your partner in crime for this adventure that you didn't know you needed someone, like you said. And you probably wouldn't be like, hey, let's plan this and do it, you know, because it's I I find when I've had a little like there were a couple of days on that multi-day race that I did one time where I was just like, I'm gonna just stay on this girl's heels and just like go as fast as she's going. And that's that was my job. And it wasn't like we were talking the whole time. It was just like, I'm latching myself onto you. So that you know, like a pacer kind of thing. And and it and it works, it helps, you know, with that. Now, I I didn't experience quite as much what you're talking about that like out in the wilderness. I mean, we were in some remote areas, you know, but I can imagine how far you felt like, you know, you're so far out there.

Cary Hayes 28:35

I mean, I couldn't believe like listen, I've been hiking, I've been running wilderness areas in the woods my whole life, you know, since I was 18 or whatever. I couldn't believe that course. You are so far out there. One of the big realizations for me coming out of this, which was great, was we're so lucky to live in the US. Like most of the racers were you're either European or Australian or New Zealanders, some combination of those three. But heavy New Zealand and Europe. I don't know the actual numbers, but I would I would say that it was like probably less than like a hundred or so Americans and 170 Euros and Aussies and New Zealanders, Kiwis, I think they say. That was a big surprise, but but regardless, it was funny for me to hear, especially the Europeans, they they read about it, they they know it, but then all of a sudden when you're in Montana and it's you know 92 miles to the next town over three passes. And they're they just couldn't, they're just like, really? Can that really be? I'm like far. Yeah, it is that far. Yes, we are really that far. Yeah, like in yeah, it's the the the span, the the the western US and the camp Canadian Rockies, too, are so incredibly huge, and we are so blessed to have that kind of open space in this country. We sort of take it for granted by now, like, yeah, the West is wide open and it's all these big mountains. And but you get out there, and it's like you're a hundred miles deep into a dirt road, and there's the next town's not for another hundred miles. There's no cabin, there's no rescue, there's no there's no eating out.

Polly Mertens 30:20

There's no coffee shop on the corner or Walmart or any of that. Like, no, you're not just popping in somewhere and getting heat or air conditioning or anything, none of it.

Cary Hayes 30:29

We um we rarely saw people, I would say it that way on this course in large stretches of this course. Wow, you almost never saw cars or trucks on these roads. You would occasionally see ATVs, okay, hunters, the kind of ATV kind of guys and families cruising around. But that was really it. Like very few. I mean, you come into some you know populated spots, of course, but like for the majority of it, especially in Canada, which was three days, Montana, which was a week, uh, Idaho, and then even into Wyoming. This, you know, very remote, very remote. I was impressed by how remote for sure.

Polly Mertens 31:07

Wow. So I want to come back to that. Well, there's two things I want to ask you about. Like not giving up, not quitting. But I also am curious about these, like, like the legit. So tell me a little bit about, you said, you know, five days in, seven, the first week, like it was hard, right? Or even on the first day, you're like, is it gonna be like this every day? Yeah, you know, kind of moments. What did you have to do? What did you have to think about? What did you have to process? How did you go? I'm gonna keep going. Like what were you checking in with yourself? I mean, you didn't have any injuries, like like broken anything, it sounds like some soreness and stuff. But what what was your what were you doing when you wanted to quit, or some part of you wanted to quit?

Cary Hayes 31:49

I mean, I never really wanted to quit. It was more like uh for like especially the first week or so, I questioned whether or not I could do it. I even questioned it like even on the la like the last week, like, can I continue doing this? Because you get worn down, you know, three and a half weeks in. Yeah, a lot of I watched a lot of people drop out who I had leapfrogged with or kind of new on the trail, who I had like perceived to be very strong, maybe stronger than me. And now these people are dropping out, and oh my god, like, whoa, this is hard.

Polly Mertens 32:24

And I'm still here.

Cary Hayes 32:27

But no, I never wanted to quit. It was more of like a can I, you know, can I keep going and can I continue to do this mentally first, physically second? My body held up well. I was actually quite surprised. Wow, not maybe not quite surprised, but I had good base fitness and I felt pretty good most of it. Advil and electrolytes seemed to be a good combo for me. Totally, totally. I certainly didn't need enough. I lost 22 pounds on this. Wow. Which was crazy. I'm like really skinny. I don't know. My clothes fit right now, but gained some more weight back.

Polly Mertens 33:03

Wow.

Cary Hayes 33:04

But you couldn't eat enough calories, right? So I would like we would come into like a resupply place, which is often a gas station or like a town, and there's usually a subway. So say subway was like the hit. So we go to Subway, I get three sandwiches, and I would maw one on the spot for like lunch or dinner, whatever time it was. And then we'd take two on the road, one was for the next meal, and then the next meal, and then hopefully you're usually like 24 to 48 hours between stops, although there's a couple more, but you couldn't eat enough, like, and that's why I lost a bunch of weight. But your question I don't know, like I had a lot of pressure on myself for this ride because it wasn't just me. I had sort of spread it out. It's a fundraiser, we got donors now. There's a lot of engagement. There's a it's not just me now, there's a lot of there's a lot of riding on it, right? Not that I couldn't have, if I got injured or something happened, like I would have been fine. Like it's okay to not finish because it's super hard. Yeah, but I had a lot of riding on it for me personally, like mentally. And there was nothing, I was like, nothing's really gonna like, unless it's really catastrophic, I'm not quitting. Like I'm I'm gonna do it. Like it could take me longer, which it did. I I originally thought on a spreadsheet I could do this in 23, 24 days. Took me 27, so you know, three or four days longer than I expected. But there was never a moment where I was like, there were certainly moments where I was hating my life and crying. I I cried a lot, which was interesting, which we could talk about.

Polly Mertens 34:40

But uh that that guy you talked about who does all the videos. I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, the in your area.

Cary Hayes 34:45

The mine had been doozer.

Polly Mertens 34:47

Right. Yeah. I heard him, I was so because after I saw you guys were friends and stuff, I was like, oh, let me see what he talks about. And he said, the tour divide, I'm calling it the the the cry divide or something, or something like that. He's like, I cry every day out here now.

Cary Hayes 35:02

Maybe me and Deozer have that in common.

Polly Mertens 35:05

That's what he called it instead of dry packing, crypacking or something.

Cary Hayes 35:07

Yeah, cry that was it, crypacking. I can't explain it other than I I thought a lot about this because like it was weird. Like every day, as soon as I would think about like my family or think about like other things, I would just like start like like choking up a little bit. Yeah, I can only attribute that to like the intensity of like the situation I was in at all times, yeah. Like the emotional intensity of it, as well as like just like part of it is like the natural beauty, also in a way, which is maybe sounds weird, but I felt I was like so out there in this beautiful environment, like incredible. What that's another like takeaway for me. Like I'll tell you, this is a good story. So, Jerry what is what I would consider like a professional cycle tour guy. Jerry had he's a British guy, he had cycled from Alaska to Washington, DC, he had cycled from London to Hong Kong, he had cycled all around the world for 20 years. He's done this forever, never been on a mountain bike his whole life. I'm like the exact opposite. Never cycle toward one day, never bike packed one day in my life before this race. Right? But I've mountain biked a million days at a million miles and done all the mountain biking stuff all around the country and so on and so forth. So, in that respect, we're total opposites. But what one comment he made to me, which totally resonates, he's like traveling and and touring by bike is so amazing because you're immersed in your environment and then you meet people and you see things in a different way than you ever could by car or by any other medium, and that's so right on. And so part of like that immersion factor, I think was back to the tears, was part of that because you're like you just when you travel that slowly through a mountain range at eight miles per hour, and then transition through different zones and different, you know, the next range, and then the next state, and then into a desert, and then to other mountain, like you really see it, right? You really feel it. You're you're almost like on the Oregon Trail, you're almost like Lewis and Clark in a way, right? Like you're really feeling the environment. You you you need to stop with creeks and rivers and be aware of where water is, and just like you're really breaking it down to uh kind of a primal thing. So I think that was also part of the emotion for me in a way, like just being immersed in such a in such beautiful places, like the whole time was like so mind-blowing for me. It was like, wow, this is cool.

Polly Mertens 37:55

Yeah, yeah, I yeah, that's one of the things I was gonna ask is like what was memorable? Was it the people, the awe-inspiring landscapes, the clung, you know, things that you didn't expect, or you know, it didn't sound like I don't know if you had any bike trouble or whatnot, but it doesn't sound like you zero mechanicals.

Cary Hayes 38:12

I'm so lucky. My body performed just great. And I had zero mechanicals, not a flat tire, nothing. Like almost everyone else I knew had some sort of issue, like in big issues too.

Polly Mertens 38:27

Like a lot of people dropped out with I was gonna say those two, checking those two, then it's really a mental and physical, you know, it's like kind of a mental game. And like I love this partnership with Jerry, like I could really see how that like you guys sort of propel each other, you know.

Cary Hayes 38:41

Jerry is getting we we did. We had we became a great team. It was like an unspoken team in a way. It was so it was so funny because like the the last day or the last night before we finished, the the last night of camping, we were on this crappy, you know, like roadside pull-out. I think like dirt road, not crappy, but like, you know, in the woods, in the desert. We're not in the woods, we're in the desert at this point, and we're camping, and we were with this other guy, Bob, and this other woman, Sarah. We all kind of decided we're gonna try to finish together the next day, which meant we were gonna ride till midnight, which we did, sleep for two hours, get up at 2 or 2 15, hit the road by three, and then ride all day. And that's exactly what we did for the last day, which was crazy.

Polly Mertens 39:30

Wow.

Cary Hayes 39:31

But Bob commented that last night we were just and we had I had we had hung out with Bob. Bob is this awesome 63-year-old guy from Michigan, super fit guy. I still can't believe how gnarly this guy was. He was great. Anyway, he he commented, which was sort of telling about the the relationship between me and Jerry. He was like, he's like, well, hey, I don't want to like he said to me the fact like I don't want to like influence or like crash your party because you guys know each other and you're kind of together, whatever. I'm like, Bob, I Jerry and I met two weeks ago in Montana. He's like, What? He's like, No way. He's like, I thought you guys were like old buddies, like you were friends from like 20 years ago. I like this the whole time. So that sort of speaks to like the relationship that me and Jerry formed.

Polly Mertens 40:26

Yeah, is that the depth you can the depth you can go from going through hard things with people, right?

Cary Hayes 40:32

Yeah, so we had that for pretty much right away, and obviously other people saw it. And for for me and him, it was just unspoken. We're just like we're just riding together, and it was just like normal. But yeah, he was a big part of it for he's such a great guy, and I we report sort of yin and yang to each other in ways, so that worked out great.

Polly Mertens 40:52

It was and um, you know, sometimes somebody could be having a low moment, and the other one's like, come on up, and then you know, if you guys are on that, but if you're both having low moments, listen, one of my favorite days on Tour Divide, I'll tell you this one.

Cary Hayes 41:03

Probably one of my highlight moments. I have a few highlight moments, but this is definitely one of them. We were we came into New Mexico, and northern New

The New Mexico Night Push

Cary Hayes 41:11

Mexico mountains are just incredible. New Mexico is like this crazy unknown state, no one knows about it. I'm I don't want to say too much about it, but it's so incredible, right? It's an incredible place. And the northern New Mexico mountains kind of spill out of southern Colorado, and they're it's like this gorgeous, forested, like the hills get small, the mountains get smaller there, but it's still just equally gorgeous. It it partially reminds me of like North Carolina in a way. It's like lush green. You can't believe you're in the desert. It's just like amazing stuff, right? So like it spills out, and then you spill out after a day or two into this little town called Cuba, New Mexico, Cuba. And there's nothing in Cuba. There's like a gas station and a McDonald's, and that's it. And then from Cuba, there's a push, it's all on pavement. It's the only day of the Tour Divide that you're on pavement the whole day. And it's a hundred and it's like a hundred and twenty-five, a hundred and thirty-five miles from Cuba to this other town called Grants. And that's like it's more of a, you know, you're just transitioning out of the desert to the next mountain range, which is south of Grants, which is the Gila wilderness, which is another mind-blowingly cool place, the Gila. Little did I know, fun fact for the listeners out there the first wilderness, protected wilderness area in the country ever was made in the Gila wilderness of New Mexico by a guy named Aldo Leopold, Google 1920. No idea. The Gila is another just mind-blowingly cool place. Anyway. So, what was my point?

Polly Mertens 42:57

Oh, you were telling me like memorable, like a something memorable.

Cary Hayes 43:00

So we're in Cuba. We do this, we came out of the mountains that day, we'd ridden like 35, 40 miles, and then we get to Cuba at like lunchtime, we eat some. I think we went to McDonald's. I got like a McFlurry and like some calories. First McDonald's I've been to in like 30 years. Sparking. So we do this big big day. The wind's blowing 30 miles an hour in our face. We can't like make forward progress mentally. That's so hard, right? It's so brutal. All the things. It's like, I don't know, we're still like 90 miles from Grants, and it's like 7:30 at night, eight o'clock at night. It's starting to like get a little twilight-ish. Jerry's not feeling good, his stomach's upset. Not that's not good. And so that's when I basically said, All right, we need to make a move. So we got to this spot. It's now about eight o'clock, eight thirty. Maybe it's almost nine o'clock at night. It's getting dark. We got our headlamps on, bike light plus headlamps, so two forms of light on the bike for night riding. And I was just like, All right, we gotta go. We gotta get to grants tonight. If we don't get to grants tonight, we have major problems on like four different So, like, we need to get to grants. Plus, Jerry's not feeling well. So, we need to get to Grants. There's really no other option at that point. You're on like essentially like tribal lands. You can't camp on the side of the road. There's not really other great options. So I'm like, we're going to grants. And it was like from that point, it was like 85 miles on this. It's a paved road, so fine, but it's a long way, right? On a bike. So I put the hammer down and I had one of the most amazing rides of my life on a mountain. My bike is 70 pounds, fully loaded, a mountain bike with all your stuff, water, food, all your gear. It's 70 pounds. So we did this ride. I was in front, and he was basically behind me the whole time drafting and pushing on those pedals hard for four or five hours. And we rolled into Grants at 1 a.m. And I'll never forget that night. It was like I felt I just got this energy boost. I ate a caffeine pill that I had like emergency caffeine pills just in case. So that was another time I used one. Yeah. Like 200 milligrams of caffeine or whatever. It's like a cup of coffee, basically. And I just got this boost and I just went, I felt like I was flying through the night. It was so fun.

Polly Mertens 45:35

Wow.

Cary Hayes 45:36

Yeah, it was a great night. And we got to Grants at 1 a.m. and got a hotel and it all worked out. That was a memorable night for sure.

Polly Mertens 45:43

And that put, like I think I remember seeing the post you did about that. You're like, I didn't know I had like a second gear in me or something. Like you said, like you had the fifth wind or something, you know, like you came up with another whole nother push, you know, because you're probably pushing in like chunks, like between breakfast and lunch or something like that. And then like this, oh, until 1 a.m. push.

Cary Hayes 46:02

I would go in these waves. Like oftentimes in the morning I didn't feel great. I'm not like the best morning persons at times, but I would go in different waves. But whatever, for whatever reason, that night I got off. Maybe it was the caffeine, maybe it was like the sort of desperateness of the situation, or I don't know, both, but I felt great that night. I was just on fire. It was flying. It was like, and this is like day 22 or something.

Polly Mertens 46:31

Doesn't seem logically like that would make sense. Like, woo-hoo, epic day, right? There's so many things I want to unpack in that. But so one of the things I was thinking is you were saying, you know, the, you know, you make plans, and then the universe is like, nope, nope, nope. Like you can't plan, you know, like, oh, I'll do eight miles an hour, so I'll finish here and I'll whatever. It was like, nope, shorter time windows. So how were you navigating planning? Like, what was it? And, you know, like you said, like for the Ledville 100, like you had that down. You're like, oh, I know what this is going to be like and how many miles I can do and whatever with this every day. I mean, while it has its logistical

Planning By Time And Camping Anywhere

Polly Mertens 47:10

goal or something like that, how how how are you logistically planning, thinking what to do? And how were you adjusting, especially if you didn't meet something? Like, was it at night you'd sit in camp and go, okay, that's what I gotta do, you know?

Cary Hayes 47:24

Or yeah. What the the big change that happened was getting away, like I mentioned before, it's like sort of getting out of like this is gonna be our plan, and more into a camping mindset, which was really actually quite important. Sorry, didn't it be important? Sorry about that. So getting into a camping mindset was like the key thing. And so, like the planning going into it was like, okay, if we go 110 miles today, we end up in this town, and that town we can get a hotel or there's a cabin here or some other lodging. And then that started to not work well because you're not making it, or you're short, or you know, the the next town is 80 miles, but it's not far enough, and then we so there are like two factors like where can we where can you resupply for food and or water? Water becomes an issue towards the end, like in New Mexico, but it's really not an issue for most of it, especially up north. There's like tons of beautiful, beautiful mountain water creeks, like blue water. It's like you even need a filter, basically. But then getting into the camping mindset. And so that's what Jerry and I finally did, which became everything got a lot easier as soon as we did that. So it's like, okay, great. We're gonna try to ride 105 miles today, 110, 100, somewhere in that zone. If we get to, and he he thought in kilometers because he's European, so 160K, 160 to 180k, and then we're gonna camp. It's that easy, it's very simple. We're gonna go ride 100 miles and then camp.

Polly Mertens 49:06

As opposed to like looking for lodging, you mean? Is that what you mean? Yeah, uh, okay.

Cary Hayes 49:11

So it once we got to that mindset, everything got a lot easier. Yeah, like, oh, that's simple. Okay, we don't need to think about the whatever towns we go through or resupplies we go through. Well, yeah, we'll stop and get lunch or you know, get food or like whatever we need to do, but we're not married to staying there. Maybe we'll stop for an hour to take a shower at like a gas station or like a cabin or like there are opportunities like that along the way, too, which we would do. But if we can't get any of that, best case scenario, we're gonna camp between 100 and 110 miles, and hopefully there's a creek nearby, and we'll jump in the creek and wash off, and that's it. It's very simple. Once we got to that, it was like, okay, this is so much easier. Because remember, you're in incredible national forest and some of the most beautiful places in the world most of the time. So camping only means you're literally like parking your bike and walking 20 feet off the road to camp, like in some beautiful meadow with a creek running near nearby. Like it's like the most amazing place you've ever been. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's in that respect, once we sort of got to that mentality, and that was sort of Jerry's pushing, yeah, then everything got way easier.

Polly Mertens 50:22

And was he in that going in because he'd done a lot of these tours and stuff like that?

Cary Hayes 50:26

Or did he propose or no? I think we kind of arrived at it together, but he was like the he it was more of his idea, like we should just think about our time. And it I even back back up even one step further. It was even less about the mileage. And his sort of vibe was more like, okay, well, we need to ride 12 to 14 hours a day and just see what happens. And we're about the same pace, and that's why we ended up together.

Polly Mertens 50:51

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 50:51

And if we do that, we're gonna ride 100 to 110 miles and it's all gonna work out. So he was like, okay, so let's just back into that. Let's get up at alarm at 445 and riding by 5:30, 515, 545, somewhere in that zone, like basically first light, and ride all day until it's dark at nine. And then once it's like getting dark and we're about to put on headlamps, we camp.

Polly Mertens 51:20

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 51:20

So that's really what it was. It was more the time than the mileage. But the way that worked out typically was not always, because there were hard days that we couldn't go that far. But usually that was like, okay, that equates to about 100 miles and we camp. Simple. Right on.

Polly Mertens 51:38

And it seems like, you know, if your body and your bike are able to do it, you know, it's like, okay, then this, you know, and you just land wherever you land, right? Yeah. And then there's things along the way. There's there's stops and food and and not, you know, and then lots of beauty. So tell me a couple of the other memorable moments, people, experiences, something that like you were out there and you're like, wow, that like I'm grateful for this, or some, or you know, you had crying moments, or like there's a lot of, I remember with the uh John Mirror Trail and the what's the other one? Pacific Crest Trail. There's a lot of trail angels, you know, the people that like come and get food and things like that. And I've I saw a video documentary about the tour divide, and there's both like lodging places or people that like they're on the tour or on the route and they put coolers out or something like that. Um and that may not have been memorable to you, but like what were what was memorable to you?

Cary Hayes 52:30

What some of the things that's certainly memorable to me. Listen, one of my takeaways from this ride is my faith in humanity is completely restored.

Polly Mertens 52:38

Right.

Cary Hayes 52:39

I am so happy that I got away from the media for 30 days and I got off of my normal world I live in here, because what I saw out there are the

Trail Angels And Unexpected Generosity

Cary Hayes 52:51

nicest people in the world, period, full stop. The the level of kindness and generosity and community that's out there that I experienced was like so mind-blowing. Not just the people who are the the riders, the communities that you go through, the trail angels, the places, so many people. I can't like hundreds of people along the way. Coolers put out. I'll give you a couple like specific examples, they're just mind-blowing, right? So there's a there's a series of like cabins and different places to stay that are like on this route, and people know about it. But there's one place in northern New Mexico which is my my favorite place to talk about. It's called the Davila Ranch. And it's like on our G it's on our garment, it's like on the map, but you don't really like it's not there's not any information about it, or like we didn't know much about it. So we're like one of those days we're like, oh, let's try to make it to Davila Ranch. So we we show up, Davila Ranch, like nine o'clock at night, it's getting dark. And there's like you don't even see, it's like you're on a dirt road, there's like a gate, and there's like this teeny sign, and you're like these low mountains basically. And it's like, you know, Davila Ranch, like, and then like a little teeny little thing under like Tour Divide or Connell Divide, Rider's Welcome, or something like that. Like you wouldn't know it uh unless you saw it somewhere else. Yeah, so there's like a little gate. So you it's like nine o'clock at night, it's a little sketchy, like you're going through this gate on someone's property in New Mexico, don't really know. Right? So we go into this gate and like the scene unfolds. You go down this little trail, and then there's like these series of buildings. We start like looking, there's no one there, and we start like walking around, and there's like building one has like three propane stoves with like all kinds of canned food in a sink, and then building two has two showers and towels. Building three has a refrigerator full of coke and beer and Dr. Pepper's and waters and all this stuff. Building four has a washer and dryer, all this, and you're just going, like, you're kidding me. And then there's like a sign on the wall. It's like, hey, this is Davila Ranch. This is a free place to stay. Here's our Venmo. If you want to donate, you don't need to, it's not required. Like, leave it as you found it. Kind of like you're just like, oh my god, like this is incredible.

Polly Mertens 55:24

The amount of infrastructure those people had to put into that, right?

Cary Hayes 55:28

Yes. And I think almost every day tour divide, there's a place like that, or similar. Maybe not every day, but like there's lots of places like that. And I couldn't believe so. That was like mind-blowing to me. There's another woman, forgetting her name right now. What's her name? But she has this place called the Llama Ranch. And the Llama Ranch is in Ovando. No, it's before Ovando. It's it's it's north of Helena, Montana. And it's just like this iconic place that people know about on the tour. You show up, this woman is so gracious. She she basically makes sandwiches and just like lays them out, and she's like making them in her kitchen. She's like, Come on in, Carrie. Like coolers full of drinks, the whole thing. And then she has all these cabins under her project. She stays as long as you like, shower, whatever you need. All free. And her her vibe is like, hey, I just want you to pay it forward. Like, we don't ask for money here. You don't need to pay for anything. I don't take any money. I I literally tried to pay her. She's like, no, no, I will not take your money. She's like, I only ask that you pay it forward. So, like, the level of humanity that's out there. And those are like the trail angels, but like it's it's it's way deeper than that. Like, there's like other guys. One this one day, there's another good one. So we're we're coming up to the west side of the Tetons. The route is really cool. It goes down through uh Montana, and then you come through like Idaho for a day. And as you're coming into from the Idaho sort of Wyoming border, you're on the west side of the Grand Tetons, which is a view you don't normally see. You usually see it from Jackson or the east side, but you're on the west side. So you got this really wild view of the sea of the Grand Tetons unfolding in front of you, and you're on these long dirt roads, kind of in and out of the trees that are kind of up and down. And when I we we come up to this like corner, and it's like a T intersection, right? And you can see the intersection maybe a few miles away, and there's this white Jeep parked at the corner. And see, Jerry and I are tunneling along and cruising along, and it's like 6 p.m. It's like a big bright sunlit day, gorgeous. And we we get to the corner, and these two guys get out of this white jeep, and these are two guys in their 70s, these total farmers are both wearing like overalls, and they got this beat up white jeep, and they get out like, hey, hey Carrie, how's it going? And I was like, How do you what? And this is another like thing about this ride. The there's a website called trackleaders.com that you you you connect your garment to so they can see. I could not believe there's a there's a whole world out there of people watching, they call it dot watching. There is a whole world of people dot watching and that you wouldn't believe. And so these guys know about the race and know about how to dot watch just on this website, and then your dot on the wet on the site just says your name, where you shows exactly where you are because your Garmin inreach is connected to your body basically, and so it shows where you are. Hey Carrie, hey Jerry, how you guys doing today? Like, what? Like, I don't know, how are you, man? And like here comes the cooler out of the back. What do you got? You want a Gatorade? I got beer, I got water, I got Coca-Cola, you know, whatever. We got some food, I got some bars. I'm like, are you kidding me? Where are you? You're from you're the web said you're from Colorado, right? Is that right, Carrie? So just wild stuff like that. And so these guys were great. They're like, you guys are we come out here every year. Look, you got you, you nutbags riding this thing, you guys are crazy. This is good entertainment for us. Oh so we had a million of like those kind of interactions. Wow, but the dot watching thing is real. We had there was another one just like that in New Mexico where I came up this six-hour climb, one of the hardest climbs. It's called Palvedera Mesa. So hard. It's brutal. It's this rocky road, chunky road, six hours to go like it's like a 17-mile climb straight up 5,000 feet. So brutal. Get to the top, almost identical scenario. And this is like a week or 10 days later. There's a guy standing up there in the middle of the woods, in the middle of nowhere. He's like, You must be Carrie, and I'm like, What? No, yeah. I'm like, you're obviously looking at the site. He's like, Yeah, this wife comes over, they've got like this camper up there. Oh, we've been tracking you for two days, man. We've been watching you for a while. We figured you'd get out coolers, burgers, whatever you guys need, the whole bit. So there was so much of that going on. I was so blown away. So blown away. Like again, one of my big takeaways was just like, wow, humanity out there, let's not demonize each other. Like the humanity on display is wonderful in the in the Western US, in my opinion. So that was great to see.

Polly Mertens 1:00:49

And so tell me, you know, extension of that is let's say the greater social media. So these guys are dot watching. So talk about like what this, you know, you know, you're in REC America and maybe REC, you know, international came up with this, or you you know, you got buy-in and stuff. Tell me what that was like. Like, were you did you always know what you wanted it to be like,

Dot Watching And Fundraising Through Social Media

Polly Mertens 1:01:08

or did they have ideas, or how did what came about there?

Cary Hayes 1:01:11

Well, first I was completely blown away by the whole thing. I had no idea. I mean, sure, I've been on Facebook and some social media for a long time now, but like this is the first time I've really witnessed the power, I guess, of social media in real time for myself.

Polly Mertens 1:01:26

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:01:27

Because I didn't think much of it. So basically, the setup was hey, we want to attract attention to this so we can drive fundraising dollars for Honnold, which was the primary goal. So I'm like, cool. So I have a marketing guy who works with us, his name is DeMarco. He's fantastic. And Hannah, I have Hannah Rains and DeMarco Brea on my marketing team. They're both fantastic. And we sort of brainstormed it and like, well, Carrie, just you know, do like a quick video of you or however you want to do it, like in the morning, and send it to DeMarco and he'll curate it a bit and post it. That's easy, no problem. So I started doing that, and it wasn't that really much effort. I was literally just like I was filming myself and then I got feedback like some somewhere like halfway through. Maybe stop like your face, maybe just like show like what you're seeing instead of you. Yeah, I got mixed reviews on that, but whatever. But anyway, it's just like a check-in. I I'm just talking about how I'm feeling or what's going on, or it's you know, it's not hard, right? It's basic stuff. I can't, I I am stunned by how many people came along for the ride with me. I have gotten dozens and dozens and dozens of people who are fully engrossed in my story who are like, oh yeah, I was with you every day, man. I would get my coffee in the morning, I would open Instagram, and there you were talking about what I was with you. I was right there next to you the whole. I'm like, wow, that is so crazy.

Polly Mertens 1:03:00

And that's your friends or people like otherwise, everyone.

Cary Hayes 1:03:04

It's friends, family, people I don't know, work people, customers, like anyone, like all kinds of randoms, like hundreds of people are actually watching this. So I actually became aware of that, like maybe around halfway through it. And I think I made a post about this. I became aware of two things. One, that social media was happening and people were actually engaging and watching this. And then two, that people, once I had that first interaction where the guy was like, hey, Carrie, the the guys in the white jeep in Montana or in Idaho, I was like, Oh, so that's a thing too. So once I understood that, that's when I was kind of like, I feel like I'm in the hunker, the Hunger Games.

Polly Mertens 1:03:45

Wow.

Cary Hayes 1:03:46

I had made a video about this. I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm in the hunger games. We're not trying to kill each other, but like there's this whole level of humanity people watching.

Polly Mertens 1:03:54

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:03:55

And we're we can't see because you're not in the internet most of the time. You come to a town, you get internet for a minute, but that's it.

Polly Mertens 1:04:01

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:04:01

So you're like, you're kind of in it, but all these people are like watching from above. It was a weird sensation or a weird feeling, but equally cool. So the social media, I'm I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with it now. Because all of a sudden I have all this, all these people who are engaged with me who are like, tell me more. Like, what are you doing today? Like, what's happening now? Like, I'm like, I don't know. I'm just figuring out my life after the tournament. I'm not really sure what I'm doing today. So that was a big success, and it drove a lot of donors to Huddled, which is great. But I was very surprised and kind of overwhelmed by the level of engagement with it, which is pretty cool. Pretty cool. That's awesome.

Polly Mertens 1:04:42

That's and I reached out to you. Like, I forget what day I've picked you up, but it was like four or five. I don't know. I was like, no, I think it was I saw some of your pre, like when you're in Banff. Like I saw you, I saw you in the car ride with the guy who was like had your car and or your bike, and it was like, or this woman, you're like, I'm just getting from this person, and here we go, you know, and then you're in Banff walking around and stuff like that. So it was like, oh, this is happening. Okay, here we go, you know.

Cary Hayes 1:05:07

So the social media part was wild. It's very powerful stuff. I I maybe have underestimated how powerful. I mean, I know people are all over it and it's a huge thing in this country, but yeah, pretty cool.

Polly Mertens 1:05:21

Giving me ideas, you know, and I know timing-wise, I I did a a couple of so I did when when I came and saw you, when I saw you when I was in Colorado, it was on a hundred days in Colorado trip. And before that, I had done 90 days around the western US and I did 10 national parks. And so I would just post like here I am, whatever. But I didn't have like this concentrated, you know, and it was different when I did this. This was probably like 2015 or something, but I didn't have this concentrated, you know, I've got this hard thing that I'm doing. It was more like, oh, here and I'm playing. And my friends were really just supportive, and they were like, or like when I was flipping houses and I would show the journey of that, and people were like, oh my God, how did that house turn out? And you know, and things. So you're right. It's it's kind of surprising.

Cary Hayes 1:06:02

The number one post I did, I get according to like the feedback I just got, you know, accidentally from people. I did this one post when I was in, I got to Colorado. I got to like just north the steamboat there. And it was like six in the morning, and I just did like an off the cuff post. I was like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. Like long pause. I'm done with Canada. I'm done with Montana. I'm done with Montana. I'm done with Wyoming? I'm in Colorado. Apparently that was like the best post for people.

Polly Mertens 1:06:39

Little, little, little surge, little like cliffhanger for us. Well, let's see. So tell me about the Hunneld Foundation and why did you why I mean you said you're an impact advisor or board member. So how did your like, you know, that moment with your wife in the car and you're like, I'm doing the tour divide? And then the Hunneld thing, like, how was it either marrying those two or having something like that? Like

Why The Honnold Foundation Matters

Polly Mertens 1:07:03

you said, you know, I wanted something not so like selfish or whatnot, but what what was it like having the Hunneld Foundation behind you? And and Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:07:12

I mean it was quite simple. I I've been associated with the Hunnell Foundation for seven or eight years now. So long like a couple years before Alex Honnold was the Alex Hunnold, which he is now. He remember, he was a dirtbag climber, and I vaguely knew him through some people I know in Boulder. I used to climb a lot. I don't climb much now.

Polly Mertens 1:07:33

Oh, okay.

Cary Hayes 1:07:34

So I had a loose connection to him pre Free Solo, which was his big famous movie where he's right. So I think it was a year or two before Free Solo came out. I reached out to him on behalf of REC to say, hey, I you have a solar foundation. Like I didn't know that, but now I do. And tell me about your solar foundation. And I'm a solar guy and I run a module manufacturing company.

Polly Mertens 1:08:05

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:08:05

We should hook up. Yeah. And so we did. And REC started first donating solar panels, modules to the Hunnold Foundation, and then money, and then we've grown our relationship over time, and it's been great. But the Honnold Foundation essentially does community solar projects in the developing world. And they're blowing up right now in such a great way. It's an amazing story. But they came from very humble beginnings. And if you go back and look at early Alex Honnold stuff, he did these videos. One's called Sufferfest One and one's called Sufferfest Two. These are like 15 years ago, maybe two years ago. And it's early Alex before he was famous, and he's cruising around with his buddy Cedar Wright, and they're riding bikes, they're doing these long distance bike rides to different climbing places in the southwest, like around Four Corners and the Navajo Nation. And they they stop in to the Navajo Nation and do a couple solar installs. And so I saw I think I saw that at the time. I was like, wow, that's interesting. So they've grown from there, but their roots are the same. They take grant applications and they get way more than they can handle, of course, but they are installing and I would say less installing actual solar, but more engaging with the community for solution-based kind of stuff. In Puerto Rico, in Central America, in Ecuador, and all over, right? All over the world in Native American reservations in the US. So they're doing the important and really good work. And it's been fun for me, like as an early sort of person in there with a partnership with them. And then I became an in fact advisor and so on. One thing about Honnold Foundation that most people don't know is Alex created the foundation when he was a dirtbag living in the back of his van. And this is before he even had a nice van. This is like a shitty van before like the ones you've seen in the movies, right? Like a really bad van. He created the foundation, and then he's been donating a third of his income every year to his foundation.

Polly Mertens 1:10:18

Right.

Cary Hayes 1:10:19

He did that before he had any money. So he made 100 bucks. He gave 30 bucks to his foundation, right?

Polly Mertens 1:10:24

Wow.

Cary Hayes 1:10:25

So he still does that, which I love because now that I'm sort of learning more and getting engaged with not nonpro, this is my first sort of nonprofit engagement. I'm aware in the nonprofit world that it it can be said that money doesn't always go to the places that it should.

Polly Mertens 1:10:44

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:10:45

And it gets burned by overhead or gets burned by like other things. So it's nice because Alex, with his one-third, his third of his income covers all the overhead of the foundation. So donations that go in go directly to projects. So it's like a one-for-one. So it's great. So I love that. That's sort of direct impact. So yeah, they're doing great work. They're growing like crazy. They're hiring people. They just landed a couple mega, mega donors, which is awesome for them. And they're gonna, you're gonna watch them grow over many, many years. So they're they're in an exciting place in their growth phase right now.

Polly Mertens 1:11:25

I love it. I love it. Well, it's such a good cause. I know you with the solar, it's like, okay, what else can can you be touching? How else can you be having that impact? So I love, and Alex seems like just good freaking human. Like anytime I see him, I'm like, oh my god, like you know, totally hang out with you. Love him. So you've done Leadville, now you've done Tour Divide. Is there is there a next yet? Do we know what Carrie Hayes is like up to?

Cary Hayes 1:11:51

I don't know what I mean. I asked my wife that the other day. I'm asking myself that today, every day right now, as I'm sort of questioning what I so what I used to think was hard was Leadville. Yeah, I'm gonna go back in three weeks and do it. It's still hard, but it's just one day for

What’s Next And The Bigger Life Takeaways

Cary Hayes 1:12:05

10 hours of your life. So my my my reference now is completely different. Because what I used to think was hard, it's not hard. So yeah, I need a new goal. I need it, probably does involve bikepacking, which I think is the coolest thing ever now that I've gone and done it in a big way. But I don't know what it is exactly. So I'm searching for that. I need uh I'm the kind of person I need something on like my calendar and my in my future to kind of strive towards. So I'm questioning what that is because I like tour divides about as hard as it gets. I think. I mean, there's always something harder, but like that's really hard. It's really, really hard. So I don't know. Someone asked me the other day, would you go back and do it again? And I think my current answer is like I don't know that I couldn't do it again. Like, I feel like there's like a calling a bit. One of the things I noticed on the race was like I would talk to people and like, oh yeah, I've done this twice. Or I did this five years ago and now I'm back. I'm like, really? Like, there's a lot of people out there that are go back. It's not just a lot of rookies.

Polly Mertens 1:13:27

Yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:13:27

So that was an eye-opener. So I feel like I don't know if it's next year or the year after or whenever it is, but I feel like I kind of feel like I'm gonna end up back in Banff at some point at the start line in the future in some future moment. Yeah, whether it's next year or a couple of years from now, I don't know.

Polly Mertens 1:13:46

Wow, faster.

Cary Hayes 1:13:47

It's less about going faster and just more the absolute insanity and beauty and experience of it all. Yeah, I could care less if I could go if I beat it by a day or two or like whatever. Like it's more the whole the experience. I was out there for the experience. I went into it like I want to have a big experience, and I really did. And so yeah, I think that would be the the reason to go back.

Polly Mertens 1:14:11

Carrie, was there a version of yourself that you discovered out there that you either weren't aware of or you just got to know better or like or solidified something that you knew about yourself? Was there a new carry that you was like, wow, I I you know, like you can do multi-day hard things.

Cary Hayes 1:14:27

Yeah, okay, but you you know, but I would say I would say two things to that. One, what you just said, like you can do hard things. Like you really can. Like what seemed impossible, like it happened. It wasn't easy. I I would argue it was more mentally challenging than physically challenging, but it's a good testament to you really can do hard things. You just break them down into small chunks and start chunking it out, and you can do hard things. So that was one. Two was more of like a life takeaway as I'm I'm I just turned 56. I actually finished on July 9th, I was 55. The next morning, I turned 56 on July 10th and flew home on my birthday, which was great. So as I'm 56 and I'm like thinking about retirement soon and like what I'm gonna do after retirement, or like how are my future one of my takeaways from it, which maybe isn't unsurprising or not revolutionary, was like, wow, I just went camping for a month in the woods, and like what do you really need in life? Like, do I really need all this stuff, my big house and all my big stuff, and all my big overhead? Like, what do I what do you really need? I just live in a tent and my number one concern was food and water. So, like, that sort of reframes things, right? Like, all I had to do was get up and ride my bike and find food and water, and that that was really it. So, like that sort of reframes things in a in a way that is good, right? You need to be reminded, like, I've been working hard and have been very fortunate and successful in my career, which is a testament to uh, you know, some luck and a lot of great people I've worked with and all the things, but like, yeah, it's like, well, so what do you really need? Like, do you really like I mean there's money, there's a money factor to that, but there's also just like a reality check of like, why are you pushing so hard to make another X dollars per year? Or like, you know, I don't know. I'm I'm sort of have those thoughts as I probably as I get older too and like contemplate what's next and all the things. But that was a good wake up for me. Like, you can live very simply and it costs no money. And like you don't need like what do you really need to be happy, right? Like, so those are good questions that are floating around my mind right now.

Polly Mertens 1:16:59

Well, it sounds like a new perspective, like like not that the old one was bad, but just like a wider perspective of life is available to you now, you know. Not that, like I said, yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:17:11

It's good to get those reset moments. Like it's hard to when I went into it, I remember and I told Jerry this when we we sort of talked about like why we're here. We talk about that occasionally.

Polly Mertens 1:17:22

I was gonna say, that many hours on a bike with a guy you guys.

Cary Hayes 1:17:24

Yeah, we always amazing. When I said it, when I write the book, it's gonna be three weeks with Jerry and like all these crazy conversations we had. One of them, like a recurring one, was like, like, why why why did you come here? Why am why am I here? Why are you here? And my one of my big whys was like, I want a big adventure. And a big adventure is so hard to come by, these in my opinion, at least in my old life. They're hard to find, right? Where else? How how do you really get out there anymore? You you're uh you got your phone with internet and like you know all these comforts, and yeah, it's hard to really, really get out there. And this was like I knew going in, like, this is gonna be an adventure because I'm gonna be really out there, like really out there. So that was part of it for me was I wanted to like really push out to adventureland to like really have an adventure, which I did, which was cool with Jerry. With Jerry, and Jerry's reasons were totally different. He was like more of on the he's more tactical than me and less of like a dreamer like me, but he was more on the yeah, you know, I've I've cycled toured around the world and I know how to do this, but this seemed like a good challenge to yeah, you know, I've never been on a mountain bike, so I should try to figure out this mountain biking thing a little bit.

Polly Mertens 1:18:50

Well, that's adventure too, in a different way, so yeah, crazy, right? And how did he do it? Was he getting the hang of it, or was it like like riding with his left hand?

Cary Hayes 1:18:59

No, no, he was amazing. He would be able to ride down and up very difficult single track and double track with ease.

Polly Mertens 1:19:08

Wow.

Cary Hayes 1:19:09

With like, you know, he basically had like a a very small fork on the front of his bike and like more or less a rigid bike. So he had he had so the guy was so efficient, like he oozed efficiency. You could just see it from years and years of cycle touring, like he oozed, like in like eking out every last watt and every last like everything. He was so good at it. You could just see it while dialed in. It was so graceful to watch.

Polly Mertens 1:19:35

It was like watching a master.

Cary Hayes 1:19:37

I was like more like raw power, like he was more just like so graceful and like awesome. Yeah, it was cool.

Polly Mertens 1:19:45

So I'm just picturing you guys with 70 pounds. Like, I've had to push my bike. I was I was in an adventure race in Colorado near Glenwood Springs, and I remember there was like it felt like two miles uphill that I had to push my bike, and that was not with gear on it. It was like the bike, the bike wasn't light, you know, so it was a heavy, heavier mountain bike, and then I had a backpack, you know, because I was out just self-sufficient or whatever. And I was like, this is crazy, but 70 pounds of bike pushing.

Cary Hayes 1:20:15

I mean, that was a big that was a big eye opener for me. Like that was that was one thing I completely underestimated because I didn't really do it much. Like I did two or three, you know, prep rides, and I had like the packs and things on my bike, but I wasn't fully fully loaded, and so when I went up there, I took too much stuff. And one of the things that happened along the ride is I started just hooking things. I left like a nice Patagony jacket at a at a hotel in Montana. I'm like, don't need this anymore. I started getting lighter along the way, totally brought too much stuff. That was sort of a rookie mistake, but yeah, like day two, after that first night camping in the in the in my tent in the rain, day two is this famous thing called Cocoa Claims. And Cocoa Claims is a four-hour hike a bike. It's little it's like literally the the worst, most brutal thing you've ever seen in your life. It's literally a straight up callus uh road like road. I guess it's barely called a road, but it's a road. And it's just like you know, it's very steep, it's probably 15, 20, 30 degrees steep. And there's no you can't ride it. It's not rideable. And so everyone hikes it. And so you just mentally prepare, like, okay, I'm gonna be this is a four, like a three to four hour hike a bike.

Polly Mertens 1:21:38

Wow.

Cary Hayes 1:21:38

And it's like two to three miles straight up, and that's what it's gonna take you. And so that day I started getting up there, and that was like I instantly realized, like, oh shit. This like every one step with a 70-pound bike is a lot of effort.

Polly Mertens 1:21:58

So I mean, like, imagine backpack, I mean, backpacking you try and do under 40 pounds, right? Or something, but like 70 pounds, and you're pushing it, you know, next to you.

Cary Hayes 1:22:08

You're pushing it, or like I would grab like the back of the seat and like yard it up. Yeah, that was a big eye-opener for me. I didn't fully appreciate that until day two. And then on day three, you do this other thing, it's called the wall, and it's it's not as gnarly, but it's kind of gnarly, where you end up going through this, you're still in Canada, and you still you go through this like swamp, basically, where you're like up to your like knees in water, and your bike's like in the muck and you're trying to lift it through, and then you have to go up this this hill. It's not a long hill, it's like maybe, I don't know, a few hundred yards, but it's like quite steep and muddy and wet and slippery, and there's trees and other things, like it's hard, and and like going up that. I watched a guy like he he slipped, dropped his bike, his bike tumbled down, total yard sale. I mean, it's gnarly, right? So, like the heavy bike was a huge thing, which I did not appreciate, which I do now for sure.

Polly Mertens 1:23:13

Yeah, it's one thing, like those long straight rides in New Mexico where you're like, Oh, just gotta get through this. But it's I swear, that was so mentally just like I wanted just to be over. You know, I think it was like 90 minutes of pushing my bike up the hill, and you're there for four hours, 70 pounds, no less. So, oh dude.

Cary Hayes 1:23:31

It's for me, it was just like, okay, I just like it's so painful and so ugly that it's like you just gotta get in the mindset of minute to minute. You're just I'm just gonna like forget it, forget about the big picture. Like, I'm just gonna, the next you know, half day of my life is gonna be on this hill, and I'm just gonna break it down to the next tree and the next little milestone I can see, and like that's that's where I need to stay. Like that's it.

Polly Mertens 1:23:55

Yep, yep. We're getting through this. There, there's nobody coming to rescue me. So it's like, yep, gotta get to the top of that.

Cary Hayes 1:23:59

Okay, no one's coming, so I better gotta do it one way or the other.

Polly Mertens 1:24:04

Yep, yep, for sure. Well, Carrie, what is I have this strange question I was thinking about. Like, if there was a bumper sticker for this race for you, what would it call what would it say? Or what would you call it?

Cary Hayes 1:24:15

Like, what is great question? It's really hard. How about some numbers? 2716 172, 2716 miles, 172,000 feet of climbing. 2716, 172. I don't know. Those are two ideas. Yeah, heart wide open. That's how I feel after it, which is really cool.

Polly Mertens 1:24:45

Yeah, yeah.

Cary Hayes 1:24:49

Oh so much good happened on that ride for me. It is so special and so meaningful, so cool, right? It was so cool. So yeah, I think my if I was like a hardcore like triathlete, whatever, which I'm kind of not, I would do like the numbers like 27 15, 172.

Polly Mertens 1:25:12

Yeah, like Iron Man or something. Yeah, something like that.

Cary Hayes 1:25:14

I think I'm more of a softy. So I think for like from my experience, I think all you would just put like a heart with like a like a wilderness and like a bike or something. That'll be my bumper sticker.

Polly Mertens 1:25:26

Nice, nice. Oh, Carrie. Well, is there any last message you want to leave for anybody that's listening to this? Maybe that is either, you know, living, you know, not up to something epic, or maybe they're on the fringe of something, or they had something in the back of their mind for epic. What would you just like? What would be your last piece of advice to somebody who hasn't done something like this?

Cary Hayes 1:25:46

Yeah, I mean, I would just say, like, it's sort of cliche, but like you can do hard things, right? Like, listen, I never bike pack a day in my life. Jerry couldn't believe that I had never ever he's like, You shouldn't know that. Yeah, he's like, You should have to the tour divide, you never ever camped on a bike, basically. I'm like, no, I'm like, I researched it, I bought all the stuff, but no. So the I guess the message is like, like, you can do hard things, like you can do it if you put the time and research and motivation and mental energy and physical energy behind it. You can do hard stuff, right? And you don't have to be scared off and super intimidated, whatever. Like, you can do it, and like, what's the worst case? My worst case was like I don't finish, like the worst case was like, okay, I'm gonna get to someplace, I'm gonna have a mechanical, my body's gonna fall apart, something's gonna happen, and I'm gonna have to scratch. Big deal. I come home, tail between legs, I cried out for a day or two, and then I did it. I tried it, right? Like, yeah, I go back next year or try again, right? Like a lot of people that happened to this year, and I no doubt a lot of these people go back, right? So, like, yeah, just don't be afraid, just go go try stuff, don't be afraid of things that seem crazy hard. I mean, I think that's goes beyond sport too, right? It's just like you build these things up in your mind as like these crazy obstacles, right? Like, well, you could you could do it. And what's the worst case if you don't? You try it, right? Big deal.

Polly Mertens 1:27:24

And I think you know, if something's calling you, it's gonna keep calling you. And it sounded like something epic like this was like stirring inside of you. And then when you went, yes, like just the rest, just yeah, you'll get there. Like, we'll figure it out, you know. Oh, I've never bike packed before. Okay, well, you know, I get I got the gear, like Jerry's here, look, yay.

Cary Hayes 1:27:43

Yeah, the universe has an interesting way of sort of you know doing things like that. There, I think there was some serious universal input with me that happened on this ride, which was cool. Yeah, it's really cool.

Polly Mertens 1:27:57

Well, Carrie, thank you so much for coming on to our show today and for letting me hear your story and share it with our listeners. It's just and it's great to reconnect with you, my brother. And I can't wait to see you.

Cary Hayes 1:28:07

Super great to connect with you, Polly. It's been too long. So I'm glad I was able to do it. And um, thanks so much for having me.

Polly Mertens 1:28:13

You're welcome. You're welcome. And for those of you listening, please

Final Advice And Closing Message

Polly Mertens 1:28:16

always remember as we tell you every time how your life feels is more important than how it looks. And every day is your opportunity to find your awesome. So go get it.