S1E7: Rivalry to Unity Navigating Women's Workplace Dynamics with Dr. Amber

Have you ever felt the sting of rivalry among colleagues or questioned the authenticity of support in your professional circles? Dr. Amber, a seasoned expert in industrial organizational psychology, joins us to dissect the often veiled complexities of female rivalry in the workplace. With her book, "Behind Frenemy Lines: Rising Above Female Rivalry to Be Unstoppable Together," she illuminates the behaviors that haunt office hallways—from gaslighting to credit-stealing—and how they can sabotage not only individual self-confidence but also the very fabric of team dynamics.

As we navigate the digital age, the rules of engagement have evolved, and nowhere is this more evident than in the realm of social media. Dr. Tishner takes us through the intricate dance of digital aggression, where passive-aggressive jabs often replace face-to-face confrontations. The conversation turns to the paradoxical world where women publicly champion each other's causes but may privately undercut one another. This episode isn't just about uncovering issues; it's about fostering a culture of self-love and admiration that celebrates every triumph, whether it's ours or someone else's.

Leadership isn't just about guiding a team; it's about cultivating an ecosystem where members feel safe, valued, and able to contribute their best work. Dr. Tishner shares her insights on creating such spaces, stressing the role of transparent communication and inclusivity in boosting team performance and psychological safety. For those stepping into new professional environments or those guiding the next generation of leaders, this episode is a treasure trove of counsel on diversity, asking the tough questions during interviews, and the ever-pertinent challenge of overcoming imposter syndrome. Join us for a conversation that's as enlightening as it is imperative for anyone looking to shape a more empowering and cohesive workplace.

Behind Frenemie Lines: https://amzn.to/49ncQjr 

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Transcript

Nicola: 0:02

All right, so let's get started. Amber, we are so excited to have you on the episode today. Please tell us everything about yourself.

Amber: 0:12

Oh well, my name is Dr Amber Tishner. I have a background in industrial organizational psychology. I specialize, however, in female rivalry in the workplace, more so how to overcome it to be better together, because while a lot of people think that's funny to talk about, it really can be quite awful. And I also focus a lot on psychological safety, and I wrote a book behind frenemy lines, rising above female rivalry to be unstoppable together. Wow, sounds interesting.

Deborah: 0:51

And where can someone find that link to the book? Or is it on Amazon? It is on Amazon and I'm happy to send you all the links.

Amber: 1:04

It's also on my website drambartishnerphdcom T-I-C-H-E-N-O-R, because it's a mouthful. How did you get into this?

Nicola: 1:16

How did you get into this career path? Not by picking it.

Amber: 1:19

Let's say I'm a female. I was going back to school, I was working on my PhD dissertation and I knew I wanted to write about women and I had to write about an issue in the working environment. I just wasn't sure what that would be, and I was in a government, well-known agency at the time working and I saw this thing happening and I was like, oh my God, what is this? And I call it the elephant in the boardroom. But women were being nasty to each other and good women were walking, yet nobody was talking about it. It was just swept under the rug. And so that is what kick-started me to start writing about this and I interviewed at that time eight or 10 women on it and wrote about it. And I was fascinated because there were just some amazing, god-awful stories that just were horrible.

Amber: 2:20

And so, fast forward, I'm working, I'm realizing it just doesn't happen at work, it happens all over, but a lot to women, and so I kept collecting stories. And then it happened to me at work and I didn't know it was occurring and it probably was going on for about six months and my mom brought it to my attention and she said I was driving to work one day and she said I hate to see how you are doubting yourself, all because of this woman. And I went oh my God, wow, I'm in it. And I was super shocked that I was in it because I didn't see it. But I thought, if I know as much as I know and I've studied it as much as I have and I didn't see it when I was in it, what is it doing to women who don't have the knowledge that I have? And I walked in and I quit and I gave my notice and I left and then I started. That's how I got on this track. Wow, that's powerful.

Deborah: 3:28

Thank you for sharing because often it can be really hard. I've never experienced it myself, but I've seen other people around me that have experienced that and I think it goes in a line with bullying behavior, definitely the signs in terms of bullying. But it happens more than you think.

Amber: 3:49

Right, it happens at so many levels and, yes, I 100% believe it's part of bullying behavior. But I think so often our culture, social media, tv shows, movies make fun of it and make it a lighthearted thing. And it's certainly not a lighthearted thing and it happens so often. But it also happens on so many levels. It's not a black and white behavior. It's very, very gray and so it can. If somebody's very good at what she's doing, when she's projecting this type of behavior, you would not see it because it can happen behind closed doors. But I think a lot of people can feel it, even if they're not impacted directly by it, because it kind of oozes throughout the organization or culture or whatever space you may be in. Yeah, it does, and not only in the organization.

Deborah: 4:43

I think if you look at social media, if you look at the programs that are out there, that we women are putting each other down and it's kind of become socially accepted, right it has. Again, I think people get a little bit hardened to it.

Amber: 5:03

It's not hardened isn't the right word. It's like they don't see it. They think it's something to be made fun of and, because it's almost comedy in certain ways, look at like reality TV shows. They make it look like it's a lighthearted thing and I won reality TV show, the Bachelor or something like that. Even I remember there was one episode it said let the cat fight. It's begin like it's a source of comedy for everybody to watch and I'm sure it brings in viewership. But to somebody that it's happening to it can have huge, lasting, long lasting impacts and that can be from when you're young to when you're older. It happens at all ages. What are some of like? Do you have some examples?

Nicola: 5:52

of what people could potentially look out for, because it's a very, very important thing to look out for, because you know, I'm sure intrinsically some people have really noticed these behaviors, but they haven't been completely explicit, right? What are some of the things or some of the examples you have that people could look out for?

Amber: 6:13

Well, let's say you're at work and I'm trying to think here, if you're, often it will maybe show itself in the form of somebody gaslighting you or making you doubt yourself. And so you know, maybe I worked on a project and Nicola, maybe you. We were in a meeting and you started to take credit for it. You know, or you jumped in and you did something and I'll think, well, why did she do that? I never did anything to her. And if I bring it up to you, you say, oh, you're imagining that I was taking credit for both of us. You know, why would I take credit for your work? And so you know that gaslighting like making me think I'm imagining something I know.

Amber: 7:00

When I was experiencing it at work, I began to be invited to certain meetings. I was left out of certain social things where I couldn't, you know, compare notes with some of the rest of the team members. The gal that had it out for me would give me work to do and she would also give the same work to somebody else, but then she would deny it. So it's just different ways to make you doubt yourself, because it's very gray. It's often when these behaviors are lurking. They're intangible and it's very hard, even though I'm a big believer of go with your gut. If you feel that something is off, listen to that inside voice, because it can be hard to share with somebody. If you feel that something's off, but start to take notes and document, because I think that if you're experiencing a lot of these kind of intangible things, after a while you'll see a pattern start to show up and you're not crazy and I think if you're in it and feeling it, you feel like you've lost your mind.

Nicola: 8:09

So that's so true. That is so true. I'm curious to know, when you did your PhD about this, like, what kind of field do you to look into this and did you start like, once you open your eyes to this, did you start seeing this everywhere? Or was it just in pockets? Or is there, you know, a specific group or trait that people have that kind of lead?

Amber: 8:37

to this. So what I saw, it at work, because it was in my immediate small team, and I was shocked that the person in charge wasn't doing anything to curb the behavior. And so once I started, you know, putting the feeler out there to see if this was something plausible and, you know, could actually find women that would one be willing to talk to, was it is widespread, is what my gut might have led me to believe, because at that time I hadn't really experienced it either. A little bits, but not a huge rivalry, put it this way. Every time it's very few, it's very rare.

Amber: 9:22

When I ask a woman if she's encountered this type of behavior that she hasn't, usually it's the other end of the spectrum, whether it's personal, it's with her family, it's at work, it's with the church, it's the moms from the, you know, the school, whatever it's that well known, and women know it. And so when I say that's what I do, women are like, oh, yeah, like, so they get it. So once I started putting feelers out and then I had some initial women open up, they started sharing it with their friends, and then I was having women reaching out to me. I have a story.

Deborah: 10:01

Do you have room for it or do you want to hear it, and so it kind of like the floodgates were open yeah, I'm kind of thinking that, like in the beginning I said I've never experienced that, but now you're kind of bringing out those subtle things to look for and I have been in a situation where that's happened to me a couple of times where you feel that you don't belong or people are having a conversation around you and excluding you from that, so it's almost like taking away that feeling of belonging.

Deborah: 10:32

So and that has a really detrimental effect on people and their well-being, you know, if they don't feel that sense of belonging or they feel like an outsider. So, thinking about what you have experienced and what the stories that you've heard, what are some of the things that people could do to stop this kind of behavior? Why should we accept the behavior and just like, for example, you just walked away right and left your job, so why? Why should you do that? Or why should people do that? Why? What is it that stops them from speaking up?

Amber: 11:10

because there are many, because it's so nuanced and levels of gray it I was fortunate that, you know, I have a double income with my husband and I happen to be a consultant. On that particular project that I was working on. I had the luxury of being able to walk away so many times. Women do not have the luxury of being able to walk away, especially if you are in a situation where the person that is, you know, projecting these behaviors against you might be your manager or your boss, or somebody that is in charge of your money, your pay, you know, so your your, you know, trajectory upwards.

Amber: 11:54

So there's an element of fear with it and so it's very hard to speak out. And then, going back to what I'd mentioned about it be, you know, not being tangible, it's often hard to put your voice around it, to explain, like you know, you go into HR and try to say, well, she's being mean to me. That's not going to fly if you don't have facts and evidence. But it's very hard to collect evidence. And then add on top of all of that, if this has been going on for a while, you're broken down, you've been stomped on, your self-esteem is going out the door. You don't feel good about yourself, and so you might even begin to think well, am I imagining this, or you know? The doubt is so real. So there's a lot of reasons why women don't speak out. I know.

Nicola: 12:44

When I was in it, I didn't see it until I'd stepped it away and that's that's so true, so often, right until you kind of get like a macro view of it or just like step back and you're like oh my god, what is? Yes, what's actually going on here? Crap, yeah.

Amber: 13:06

And then you and then there. What I also want to add to that there's often an element of shame involved, and especially if you've been, you know, slowly ostracized or you know you don't feel like you belong, there's that, that feeling of shame like why didn't I stop it? Why am I not doing something? Why am I not speaking out? And so I think a lot of and you know it depends on the work environment you're in a lot of men, if they're in charge, may not feel comfortable. They don't want to get involved. There's also totally lost. My train of thought there it's that will come back to me.

Nicola: 13:53

Ask me another question you focused quite a bit on woman and woman in the workplace. Have you noticed anything interesting about like particularly woman in male dominated industries?

Amber: 14:11

so for full disclosure, I've just studied the woman on woman behaviors but I've spoken to a lot of groups and men have been very and I've spoken to men, I spoke into actually just male groups and they've been very forthcoming that this also does happen.

Amber: 14:29

I don't know that the dynamics might show up the same way that it might with women. Typically, when I was doing my research there was nothing out there about, you know, rivalry, so I had to go back to theories of aggression and so typically, well, when children are born, they're born with the same levels of aggression and you know you can rough, boys will be more rough and tumble and and. But then when social intelligence begins to develop, that's when women or girls begin to develop that inner voice and they can be, you know, more passive, aggressive and they use their words and it's not as physical, it's more of, you know, that intangible type of passive, aggressive behavior and so that typically, you know there are definitely other examples, but that typically is how women will differ from men in the types of aggression that they may use. But I have heard always disclosing. I've usually only studied women. Men will say it definitely has happened to them, it's happened from other men or it's happened, from other females that is projected toward them, or vice versa.

Deborah: 15:47

Yeah, I kind of agree with that. I think that women tend to use lots of words that can harm people instead of that physical piece. I do say I have two daughters and I said in their school when they talked to me about the different dynamics of different people and how that do you think it's becoming more prevalent in schools because it seems to be socially accepted from social media etc.

Amber: 16:17

I don't know if it's more. I think it's there's more awareness because you can see it more often on social media. I think there's an element of keyboard courage that can come out with social media where you can, you know, act all tough and do things that you might normally not do if you are face to face with somebody. I have a daughter and a son. I see the differences in how they handle their aggression and my daughter just recently went through a horrible, horrible it was cyber bullying and it was all on social media and that girl would have never said the things that she said to her if they were, you know, walking by each other or face to face.

Nicola: 17:02

For sure I'm curious to know about because okay? So full disclosure I'm moderately obsessed with this particular TV show in New Zealand that started this week. It's awful.

Deborah: 17:18

I just want to be very clear. However, you can't keep your eyes off it, right? No?

Nicola: 17:23

it's like watching a car accident.

Deborah: 17:25

Yes.

Nicola: 17:26

It is a car accident. We know it's bad. I just absolutely love it and I wait every year for it because I know it's going to be a shit show.

Deborah: 17:35

Yeah.

Nicola: 17:36

What I find curious, though now we have the frenemy crap happening, right, yeah, but you have some of the women who are outwardly saying, oh, I love to uplift other women and oh, this is so wonderful and you know, let's empower each other and lift everybody up at the same time, and woo, woo, woo, and you know all of these really positive affirmations around uplifting women and using social media to uplift women, but when you kind of peel back the curtain a little bit, that's not actually happening. Why are we doing that? Why, as women, are we doing crap like that?

Amber: 18:17

You mean saying that they're doing one thing but then their actions are doing something else. I don't know. I think maybe it's the pressure to be good with quotes. I'm doing quotes here, but then you know it. One of my favorite lines is women who love themselves love other women. And so if you love yourself and you feel good about yourself and you feel comfortable in the skin that you are in, you genuinely wish that for other women, because there aren't things you know, you're not threatened by anything because you're content with who you are. So I think the women that might showcase what you are talking about know what they want to be, or they really want to be good and do good, but they're just not. They don't like themselves and so they can't help themselves. And I know that's kind of a weak way to word it. But if you love yourself, you're not going to tear down other people. But and I wonder if it's the pressure, like you know, it's not cool to be mean. So you know, maybe Cool to be ugly to people, be kind.

Nicola: 19:46

I find that fascinating because I hate myself. I think if you don't the narrative in my head, it is not a fun time, right, it's not a fun time, terrible.

Amber: 20:02

But we all have that.

Nicola: 20:03

Yeah, but I can't think of anything better than when something awesome happens with dates, exactly Right, I'm like yeah, I'm so excited for you. There's no like, oh, I wish that was happening to me.

Deborah: 20:18

No.

Amber: 20:18

Yeah, well, I think we all I call your she bully that little voice. I think we all have that in every we need to tame her down, you know often. But women, if sometimes women, it makes them feel better to see somebody feel worse than how they feel, so that's why the tear down occurs. But yeah, we all have a little, you know. I think that's just human nature. You're going to have that, the self doubts and different things. But I'm with you, nikola.

Amber: 20:51

I, when my friends, even if we are in the same business, if somebody gets something and it's so great, I love it, like sure, there's a little like sometimes there's like, oh, why her, not me? But that doesn't mean. And then it's like I'm so excited that somebody's winning. You know, like it's always it's normal to have a little tinge of jealousy or something, but it's the best thing. It's like giving a gift and you know it's a gift you've picked out for somebody and you get so excited because you know it's just going to light their world up. And that's when I feel when my friends or people I know get things that they deserve.

Deborah: 21:29

Yeah, I think that's, but that's also part of growth leadership, right? If I think about our industry and we often get leaders and then we talk about managers. Now, leaders are very different to managers. I think a leader is someone who uplifts their team, who gives them the opportunity to thrive, to create environments for them to thrive. What are some of the things that you think that people could do to lift their teams up, or rather than make them feel like that sense of they don't belong, but what are some of the tools that you think that they could kind of use to uplift their teams?

Amber: 22:09

Well, I think it comes down to psychological safety. So, in order to have, you can say you're a leader or a manager, but you have to walk the talk that you're preaching, and so you know you have to it. One of the key things is transparent communication. You everybody needs to feel accepted and feel like they belong for exactly who they are. There's no fear for raising your hand, for voicing a different opinion. So it's, it's the communication, it's the, the inclusivity. Is everybody being included? Are only certain people in meetings allowed to raise their hand or say things?

Amber: 22:53

If you make a mistake, will you be punished for making a mistake? No, you should take the mistake and and how could you learn and grow from it? It's you know. It's diversity. It's you know all the things that you hear people talk about, but it's truly diving in and peeling back the onion. So it's bottoms up, it's top down, side to side. It's everybody is feels like they are accepted. And part of that team and studies show, when you are allowed to feel vulnerable, where there is no fear for showing who you are authentically, you are going to get so much more in return from your teammates and members because everybody feels as if they belong.

Deborah: 23:42

Yeah, I totally agree in terms of thinking about human-centered design right and how we can use it in psychological safety, so that art of empathy listening with empathy rather than sympathy, as Brené Brown would say, but yeah, I think that's really, really important is to be able to learn how to listen.

Nicola: 24:05

Yes. So another thing I'm recently obsessed with, not just the terrible TV show, but another thing and also not the Bahamas, which is a story for another day but I've recently become quite obsessed with sleep statistics and how the impact of sleep, you know, kind of impacts leadership and teams, etc. And I heard a statistic the other day that literally blew my socks off and the statistic was, for every 45 minutes of sleep debt accrued by the leader, there was a significant decrease in the psychological safety felt by their direct reports, and psychological safety in this instance was described as the key factor in team performance, influencing how freely team members felt to express their ideas and concern.

Nicola: 24:58

Wow, that's powerful, that is powerful 45 minutes of sleep debt and you are a dick of a leader. I'm kidding, no one's a dick of a leader for like a 45-minute sleep.

Deborah: 25:11

I think, nicola, you need to share that. That's quite interesting because if I think about the causes of people's stress and anxiety and reaching out to EAP etc. The underlying issues goes back to that sleep. Thinking about shift workers right, I live with a shift worker and he hardly has sleep, I have to say, because he's a bit of a worker holo and that can I can see in his moods if he doesn't get the right amounts of sleep right.

Deborah: 25:43

So it's so important that that balance of having sleep, doing exercise look we all are going to be in a good mood all the time, but it's that balance right and the power of saying no, yeah.

Amber: 26:00

I just read it. I'm going to get the statistic wrong. I can't remember. I think she said six hours, but it was. I just read it this week about how the lack like if you are down anyhow the gist of it is if you are substantially low and sleep, it's like coming to work as if you're intoxicated.

Amber: 26:20

Yes, yeah yes, and so I can find that statistic. I just read it yesterday and I was like whoa, that's huge, like yeah, because I felt so asleep, I wrecked, I flew, I was gone over the weekend. I came home, didn't have any sleep and I felt like I was tipsy, like this is not good.

Nicola: 26:40

Yeah, I didn't even have a beverage exactly, yeah but thinking about that, that psychological safety that leaders have over teams, you know what you've you mentioned earlier, you've just become certified in. Tell us a little bit about that. Let's start there and work our way up.

Amber: 26:58

I have become accredited through the Academy of Brain Based Leadership. So they are out of Australia and they're also out of San Francisco, and so I can give assessments one on one and also to teams. But, as you mentioned too, we, with the whole essence of psychological safety, dives into it's moderation, but it's sleep, it's how you're eating, it's you know, saying no to things, it's your peace of mind, but it's understanding. The perspective we look at from the Academy of Brain Based Leadership is how your brain functions. It's not you, it's your brain. So it's understanding the differences, how all three of us may have the same item in front of us, but we'll look at it vastly different, just by the way our brain is interpreting that information.

Amber: 27:52

And so it's fascinating to take this information and go into teams and you know, especially if there's conflict among the teams, you can have everybody, take the assessment, everybody, and it's not a personality assessment, it's truly how your brain is wired.

Amber: 28:12

And then you can bring everybody together and I can say, nikola, it's not you, it's your brain. Or you can say, amber, it's not you, it's your brain, because I'm coming, my brain thinks this way and your brain thinks that way. But then if we look about how we're coming at things, we can find our middle, common ground so we can still work together, we can still have our uniquenesses and we're not losing each other in the process, where one feels belittled or, you know, not accepted or like they don't belong because their brain or my brain may think differently than your brain, because no one's brain thinks the same, and so it's a different lens of how to view psychological safety. Specifically looking at the brain, it's fascinating. The statistics are amazing. I can I don't have my book in front of me, but I can't. It's so interesting to learn it.

Nicola: 29:12

So when you think about you know that teamwork and psychological safety. You know we spoke a little bit about vulnerability and bringing your whole self to work. Yeah yeah, quite often that isn't happening in those environments. What are some like the hot tips you could give new leaders, emerging leaders, current leaders, established leaders, for them to be able to better define a safe work environment for people to feel that safety that we need.

Amber: 29:47

So I just wrote a blog and I pulled this up and it will go live tomorrow. But it's tips of how to understand your workplace culture and you know psychological safety be in a huge component of it. So basically, asking people how safe, how psychologically safe, is your workplace? So one thing to look out for is how open is the communication which we've talked about as the key thing. Effective communication is key for everybody. But the second thing is feedback constructive and supportive. You have to have feedback. The third thing is diversity, inclusion embraced. That's a key one. I mean they all are Our team meetings inclusive and participatory for everybody, so it's not just a token few.

Amber: 30:40

How is failure handled? That's a big one because no one's perfect. Our wellbeing conversations prioritize, which we just talked about that. How is conflict resolved and addressed? That's a huge one. And do team members feel supported that on all levels, it can be in or outside of work. Are you, you know? Are you you mentioned Deborah, you're a mother. Maybe Nicola, you're caring for aging parents, like all these things that are outside of your work you don't compartmentalize your life. Life at home doesn't stay at home. Work just doesn't stay at work. So these are some tips that leaders can look for to begin to work on, you know, developing a psychologically safe environment.

Deborah: 31:30

That's really cool, because that's often what people are missing are those tools to be able to think differently and lead in an empathetic way. Thinking about now this is a challenge for a lot of us is that COVID taught us we can work from home, we can work from anywhere, and it's much more difficult to understand how people are thinking and feeling if someone's got their camera off on a Teams meeting, for example. What advice do you have for leaders to help keep their people connected, if they're, specifically, if they've got people working remotely and yeah, so that can be a bit of a challenge. I've noticed that in the way that we lead it where I am, and often you can't feel or know what people's, what they're going through or if they're feeling connected. So what are some of your tips for that?

Amber: 32:26

I, when I was going, I had several groups, even though I have my own business, several groups that I was involved with, with COVID, and I think there were things I learned doing that that you can take with you even to now, because, yes, a lot of people still work from home or wherever you know they're choosing to work. I think, if, though, if you are having Zooms, I think number one, it is important to have the camera on. You know, if you have the luxury of working remote, I wanna see your face where you are. I don't care if you know you're sitting outside or I'm sitting behind my desk, but I think you still have that eye contact. You can use your hands, you can see facial expressions. I think that's huge. So, I think, if you're working from home, turn the camera on.

Amber: 33:13

Two, I think and everybody you know, we all got zoomed out. I did at least, you know it's oh, it's like, oh my God, another Zoom meeting, but there was one group in particular, and a lot of us had just met. Some of us knew each other, but the group as a whole. We would have Team Happy Hours, and so where you, you know you can have your little beverage or whatever or whatever you want to do, but it was we would take a half hour, 45 minutes. But just get to know each other as a group.

Amber: 33:49

I think if it gets too big, that can be hard to do because you know it's either too small or too big, people won't talk. But if you have, you know, eight to 10, maybe 15 people not where it's stressful, but just you're really trying to do some team building exercises If you can have the chance to get everybody together in person periodically, I think that goes, it makes huge leaps and bounds. Because I know it's exciting after you've for me at least, I'm a nerd but after I've met somebody on Zoom a ton of times, it's like, okay, I get so excited to meet them in person, you know, because you, it just further establishes that bond. So any little thing you know, depending on what your work is or how you do it, but you have to find little ways to it's bringing the human aspect involved. It's not, you know Zoom can feel like work, but I think maybe then you take away the work for a little bit and just try to get to know each other as people. Good advice, yeah, thank you.

Nicola: 34:54

I'm going to circle back to a topic that I think is quite interesting in the media at the moment, because you mentioned some of the tips to that psychological safety balance and one of them was diversity and inclusion, and there's tons of research. I know there's tons of research that supports that diversity and inclusion is really important. It creates better decision making, it helps you. There's so much stuff, but there's a ton of places that are walking back their diversity and inclusion aspects Lulu, lemon, disney they're all walking back these decisions too because they're now not money makers anymore. Diversity and inclusion is not a money maker. So I'm curious to know, like, let's say, you're in one of those organizations where they've decided that diversity and inclusion is not hot topic anymore. What are some of your A, what are your thoughts on that? And B, what are some of your suggestions for someone working in that environment where that might not be important anymore?

Amber: 36:04

Well, I think it's always should be important. I know I think it's. You have to make a personal choice as to how much that matters to you, but it should matter. We all want it to matter for everybody. But I think you have to evaluate the team's attitude towards diversity. Are different people welcomed or valued? Is there a tendency to going backwards?

Amber: 36:33

In this day and age, I have such a hard time when it's so hard to move forward and then suddenly it's your you know 10, five steps backwards. So I don't know. I think it's just not always so easy to up and quit something. But I think if these are part of your core ethics and values, you really just have to do some soul searching and say is this a company I want to work for? You know, I, if I were at one of those companies, as much as I love their products, I would have to question if that would be the right environment for me to be in. So I think it's a personal decision and, again, nobody knows what shoes you are walking in. Maybe it's not so easy just to up and move or get a job or try something different. But you know, I truly think it comes down to, unfortunately, personal choice that I think in this day and age, no company should be making step backwards in this arena.

Amber: 37:36

We should always strive to be moving forward.

Deborah: 37:39

Agree, and if I think about the younger generation coming into the workplace and they've got a very different view of how ways of working or future ways of working could look like right. And we have leaders out there who have been born in a different era, have been brought up in a different era and the way that they lead is not necessarily conducive to the new ways of working of the younger generation, what advice would you have for those older leaders who lead in a certain way I'm not going to say whether it's right or wrong- yeah, I won't give my view.

Deborah: 38:20

But I do know that they find it quite difficult to understand the next generation coming in and the ways of their working, which is very different. It looks like for us. It looks like perhaps working anywhere in the world and still doing, getting the job done, or whereas the old leader would expect the person to come into the office and be there from nine to five and not take any sick leave when you're feeling sick. But yeah, how would they work through that?

Amber: 38:51

I think it's having an open mind, and I would almost say this goes both ways, because when you're asking that question, I have so many thoughts spinning about female rivalry, just because a lot of the stories I've heard it's from younger women coming in and older women feeling threatened. And again, I'm just using the stories that I have in my book or that women have shared with me, and my thought is my God, if you, both of you, could be more open and look at what you could learn from each other, it could be a true game changer. So if change can be painfully difficult, but also if you look at what is on the other side, it can also. No one wants to be stagnant. So if you're just always sitting with your butt in the seat, you know you're going to get bored, and so I think you have to look at change as intimidating, as scary as it is, as okay. How can I keep learning and growing so I'm not the one becoming stagnant and then I'm no longer of use? So you have to embrace changing times, or else the change will keep occurring without you in it and then look where that will get you.

Amber: 40:11

So, but both sides, if you have a younger generation coming in and the older, like this person, has been there for years. What can I learn from them? What can they teach me about this workplace that I could have never gotten without the tenure? You know that they already have and vice versa, maybe somebody new coming out of college or you know brand new to the environment. What have they learned? What are the new? You know hot things that they can help me and help me. You know, embrace that change a bit more. So it's just having an open mind and not judging.

Nicola: 40:46

That's so true. I just I find it so fascinating at the moment because, you know, there's just so many different dynamics at the moment. You know, and I guess, I guess you know, in New Zealand I want to say we're a little bit lucky. Granted, we've got a bit of a interesting government change happening at the moment, so it makes it a little bit challenging. But in you know, comparatively, if we look at, you know, some of the other countries in the world, we're quite lucky in that regard.

Nicola: 41:17

Yeah, pretty steady and it's really important for us to be diverse and inclusive and it gives us really good insight into how better to lead. You know, I strongly believe that to our Maori, and the Maori culture really divides leadership well, and especially women in leadership really well. I think that's a pivotal thing. If anyone's ever wants to be obsessed about something really cool, Check that out. But you know it's. It's just so challenging to see some of these places that are turning around and saying, well, you know, our gender diversity is out the window, our ethnic diversity is out the window, our age diversity is out the window and we don't care about the, you know, older generation leading this organization. We only want those young up and coming because they know exactly what's going on, those influences.

Deborah: 42:17

Now I sound like I think you really do need that diversity to truly have a dynamic and creative workspace. You have to think about those. Also thinking about something you said. Amber is around, you know we also have the choice. So, as a young person, you have a choice of who you want to work for, for example, right and there's questions that if you're going into an interview that you should be bold enough to ask in terms of what leadership style, you know, does the company back, or what are their ways of working, or how important is diversity. So we should be asking those questions 100%.

Amber: 43:04

I think so often people think, oh, I'm being interviewed, it's all at the discretion of the organization. It's a two way straight. It is a just as much for you as it is for them. And I think if you can't ask these types of questions, you need to evaluate if this is the right place for you, because look at how much time you spend at work and also the organization is, you know, putting money into you to get you on, boarded and trained and everything. Like they don't. If it's not going to be a good fit culturally, then that's money out the door for them. But also everybody wants to be happy.

Amber: 43:45

So I think you know if you have to be, it's back to that transparent communication and asking. And you know it might feel strange in an interview, but that's your segue in. So it's use it or lose it, because you might get in and realize it's whoa, why didn't I ask these questions? And sometimes with workplace culture, it might not be something that is so readily seen like in an interview. But also, do your research behind the scenes. Stalk them on social media like see, look on LinkedIn to see if, oh, who knows somebody, if somebody that works there. Maybe I can pick their brain to really, you know, get the ins and outs of what that atmosphere is like.

Deborah: 44:26

Yeah, and I think I mean you would do that if you were dating, right?

Amber: 44:29

So if I think 100%.

Deborah: 44:31

Yeah, so I mean, you spend most of your time at work, so why wouldn't you do the same thing? We need to be bold enough to be able to do that. Often we go into an interview and think, oh, you know, it's going to be all aimed at me and, just as you said, we need to be part of that. Ask those questions, be bold, right? Yes, okay, thanks for that welcome Date your interview process.

Amber: 44:56

That's right, that's kind of weird. But it's true, it is true.

Nicola: 45:03

Because you don't know. I think it's like any relationship, right. You don't really know the person until you're like a year in. So you've got to ask many questions up front as to what sort of leader are you? What happens when I do something wrong? Are you just going to wrap me over the rim Like, how do I bring my all of self to work? How comfortable are you with that?

Deborah: 45:27

Do I need to, you know, dilute my Ask the question what happens if I get sick? Do I get time off? Because often you'll find, just as you said, get into the workplace and then you'll try to take some time off. And you're a leader and I've seen this time and time again why you're sick. What's wrong? You can't take time off and people put pressure on you to be at work, but in the meantime you're really not feeling well and it takes longer for you to recover. If you're just going to take an hour here or an hour there, you know 100%, but also with that it's like what's your philosophy for mental health?

Amber: 46:06

Maybe? I just need a mental health day and I have to step back. I think that's equally as important as a physical you know sick day. So you know it's good to come up with a whole bunch of questions and if they aren't interested in answering them, then that is a true red flag.

Deborah: 46:24

Tell, tell, sign yeah.

Nicola: 46:27

Yeah it's. I find that really, really interesting as to how we kind of navigate that as leaders as well, because you know, when you're a leader, sometimes you forget the stuff, because you're also you know, you got you to worry about and then you've got others to worry about and we're not going to get it right every time.

Amber: 46:49

No, then that goes back to the culture of vulnerability, like okay, maybe I messed up, I'm sorry. How can we learn from this together? Or, you know, like no one's perfect, but it's, it's how it's handled, if, if something does go, all right.

Nicola: 47:06

You know I've I recently wrote an article about imposter syndrome and how. You know how it's through everything at the minute like everybody has it at the minute. It's like. It's like the hot new thing to have is imposter syndrome. When you think about, again, our emerging leaders, our current leaders, what are some of your thoughts or comments on how that impacts them?

Amber: 47:35

The imposter syndrome. Yeah, I think everybody has it. It's like going back to that she bully that I mentioned. I don't know why this saying comes into my mind, but you fake it till you make it. You know, like I think if, if somebody says they don't have it, I think they would be not being truthful. I don't want to flat out say they're lying, but everybody has it to a degree. But I think you have to step back and look at what you've accomplished and how you've gotten to where you are. You know, because there's something backing you up for that. So it's easy to get on the the naysay train and go down the little rabbit hole. But really step back and look at your accomplishments and what you're doing and and you know, you wouldn't be where you are if you didn't earn it.

Deborah: 48:32

Yeah, agree. And I mean, as a leader, we never stop learning, so you're always going to feel like you don't know everything. But if you have that growth mindset, it's all about mindset. I believe If you, if you really truly are passionate about what you do and leading other people, you need to have that growth mindset to say look, I don't know everything, I'm going to continue learning 100%, and also no one likes to know it all.

Amber: 49:03

So I love, yeah, I love learning and it's you know, you're constantly learning and then I think if you hit the point where you don't like that, you have to, you know, check yourself a little bit.

Deborah: 49:16

Ask those hard questions.

Nicola: 49:17

Yeah, I recently listened to a podcast that was around skill stacking. Have you heard of that Skill?

Amber: 49:26

stacking no.

Nicola: 49:29

I listened to it literally yesterday and I told Deb's about it. I was like, oh my God, that's exactly what we do is essentially what it is, and please correct me if I'm wrong here. I only listened to it yesterday, I did not take notes, I was walking. But, in summary, what it is is you are so passionate about learning or growth or developing yourself that you find skills that are adjacent to support the skill that you have. So let's say, for example, the example they gave actually you are a podcast producer, but you start developing a skill in you know sound, like DJing, for example, so you better at developing sound. Or you learn to create backdrops for films. So when you do the podcast you've got a really nice backdrop and you're able to set that stage and create the story, which I found really interesting. So you're stacking those skills, so they're adjacent. They're not the same as the skill that you have, which is podcast producing, but you stack the skills in a way that makes you really marketable as a person.

Nicola: 50:43

And you know, I was listening to that yesterday and I was like, oh my God, that's like Deb's and I right, Like we love ourselves a little bit of a skill stack. Learn something new. That's a little bow in the bow and arrow. What is that? A quill, I don't know. So you know the qualification in psychological safety. Was that something that, now that we have a word for it, do you feel like?

Amber: 51:10

that was a skill stack. It was a skill stack yeah.

Amber: 51:12

Well, you know what it's interesting? I think I had, I had loved the concept of it. I was fascinated by it because and I wrote about it in my book but then, as I've gone on with female rivalry, I kind of felt from it is a skill stacker. But I also feel like it was a missing piece for the link of the work I'm doing, because I feel like you have working environments, you have female rivalry. How I can make it come full circle is say that the lack of psychological safety can cause these bullying types of behaviors to occur and hence an outcome is female rivalry. So I feel like the psychological safety kind of linked everything that I've been doing together. But yeah, it was. It was certainly not something I needed, I didn't need to become accredited in this, but it it stacked my skills. Yeah, that's so true.

Deborah: 52:12

And if I think about health and safety, right, and Nicola and I kind of took a step back in our careers to learn human centered design. So we stepped out of health and safety and went into human centered design to learn the skills of how to practically apply. And now, if I think about it, we use it every day, right? We use it so practical in safety and it just, it just works for us.

Amber: 52:42

Yeah, and I use psychological safety every day. I recently wrote a blog about how it it doesn't. It's one of those things. Again, you don't just compartmentalize. It kind of becomes your mindset. It doesn't kind of it becomes your mindset of how you want for me, how I want to live my life. It's not just my relationships at work, it's my relationships with other people and myself.

Deborah: 53:07

So I guess I'm just looking at the time and it's time for wrapping up and thinking about what would be a parting summary or conclusion that you would, or advice that you would give to our listeners out there.

Amber: 53:24

I think it's kind of everything we've covered, but I think mindset is the key to a lot of this. I think it's being for me, it's being grateful, it's having that mindset of being grateful for what I'm doing, but the openness to explore what else is out there and to keep learning and you know, I know who I am as a person and how I want to, you know, be towards other people. But having the openness to you know, learn and interact with all types of people you'll never know who you'll come across or who you will meet that, you know, will be a great thing in your life and that's not really about psychological safety or female rivalry, but I think the mindset is key for so many things, and so that would be it have an open mindset.

Nicola: 54:21

So we have a really silly closing tradition over here on this podcast. It is very silly and I'm going to call it charades with words, and what we would like you to do is think about your handbag or your purse, or whatever it is that you carry around. Yeah, and describe to us a couple of the things in the handbag, and we will try and guess what is inside your handbag.

Amber: 54:51

Okay, okay, let me think it's a square. It has a cord, a notebook. I just pulled that out.

Nicola: 55:14

So that's not. It no Like a zipper pouch.

Amber: 55:20

A phone. It could help a phone. Oh, a charger. Yes, it's a battery, a battery.

Deborah: 55:28

Battery charger.

Amber: 55:29

Yeah, it's a standalone battery because my phone I need to buy a new one so I never know when it's going to go downhill really quick, so I could plug it into that battery. What?

Nicola: 55:41

else have you got?

Amber: 55:43

What else is in there? Let's see. Okay, something I write in Diary, you're diary. I just got my notebook. Yes, I pulled that out for this call. So I think you already said notebook. It's kind of boring right now. I just traveled and so I emptied it out. Let's see, I was in a very dry climate in Arizona over the weekend, so there's something in there I use for my skin.

Nicola: 56:13

A spritzer.

Deborah: 56:15

Or a moisturizer.

Nicola: 56:17

Yes, I just got my phone. So where were you in Arizona? Because I drove through Arizona thinking it wasn't that big and then started like at the top of Arizona Later to the bottom of Arizona and only saw the same cactus, the whole thing through One cactus.

Amber: 56:40

And you only see that one cactus because there's nothing else I was in the blue and the black and brown, with the occasional green cactus. I was in Tucson, arizona.

Deborah: 56:51

Oh my gosh. Well, guys, I need to drop off and go and do my duties for work, but it's been awesome chatting to you.

Amber: 57:00

Lovely to see you. Meet you, Deborah.

Deborah: 57:03

Yeah, nice to meet you and you've been fascinating Inspiration.

Amber: 57:06

Thank you, thank you both. So much, nicola. Lovely to see you again.