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SafeTEA Podcast with Nicola and Deborah
Join hosts Nicola Knobel and Deborah Pitout on 'SafeTea,' a podcast where the conversation about safety gets personal, powerful, and a bit of 'tea' is always spilled! In each episode, Nicola and Deborah dive deep into the world of safety leadership, viewed through the lens of inspiring women in New Zealand and beyond.
At 'SafeTea,' it's not just about policies and procedures; it's about people. Our hosts bring their unique perspectives and experiences to the table, engaging in candid conversations with remarkable women who are reshaping the landscape of safety in their fields. From trailblazing leaders to unsung heroes, each guest brings a wealth of knowledge, experience, and inspiring stories to share.
But 'SafeTea' is more than just interviews; it’s a movement. Nicola and Deborah are here to empower and uplift, turning the spotlight on the achievements, challenges, and insights of women in safety. They delve into topics ranging from overcoming workplace obstacles to the importance of mental health and wellbeing, all while fostering a sense of community and connection.
Whether you're a safety professional, aspiring leader, or simply someone who believes in the power of women's voices, 'SafeTea' is your go-to podcast. So grab a cup of tea and join us for empowering conversations that aim to make a difference, one story at a time.
SafeTEA Podcast with Nicola and Deborah
S1E4: Celebrating Māori Narratives in the Journey Toward Excellence with Kara
Nicola and Deborah from the SafeTea Podcast, engage with Kara in an enlightening dialogue that traverses cultural enlightenment and empowerment. Kara, a staunch advocate for Māori excellence within Aotearoa New Zealand's public service, shares her personal journey. From her upbringing near the Whanganui River and transitioning from a Catholic school to Kura Kaupapa Māori, to achieving a significant position within the treasury, Kara provides an intimate look into a life where tradition and modernity converge successfully. Her discussion on the critical role of Te Ao Māori in both family life and the workplace highlights the importance of heritage and identity.
This episode delves into the nuances of workplace dynamics, spotlighting the 'cultural tax' and the often unseen burden of non-promotable tasks that fall heavily on Māori and women. Kara's insights into social policy and justice present a fresh outlook on how organisations can genuinely incorporate Māori values beyond superficial measures. The conversation also touches on personal anecdotes about how our children's connection to their Māori and South African heritage enhances our lives, underscoring the universal value of cultural authenticity and diversity celebration.
As the conversation unfolds, the transformative power of storytelling is underscored, showcasing its significant influence in both professional and personal spheres. From the role of language in overcoming cultural barriers to the recognition of cultural heritage in organisational events, this episode stands as a tribute to the impact of our stories on shaping both policies and personal relationships. Join Nicola and Deborah for a compelling journey into how embracing and respecting our diverse backgrounds can forge stronger, more inclusive communities and work environments.
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All right, hey, can we get this show on the road?
Kara:Yes, I'm coming into this. I've been mine and fresh, not as prepared as I normally am, but I'm just king's courted on.
Nicola:That's what it's about. Everything it is about 100%. I thought it would be good for us to open with a calming karakia for today, Something that can get us into a calmer, happier space. Ground us, Ground us, Getting us started. Kia toi te aio, Kia toi te waru au. Kia toi te tinana. Kia runga kia raro. Kia waho kia roto Aio aio, aio.
Kara:Aio Tell her.
Nicola:Welcome, laura, to the podcast.
Nicola:I am so excited.
Nicola:And the reason I'm so excited to have you on the podcast is when we first meet, I honestly, you know we were just talking about vibes and energy, and I probably have never met anyone as empowered and vocal about your values, your thoughts, your rounding, your ability to be yourself, your ability to communicate that to others and tell the story of how that means to you and how it resonates with you has been life changing. And then I stalk you on LinkedIn like a crazy person because all your stuff is so awesome and I feel like now I sound like a, I feel like that's fangirling. But you know, you've just got this passion and this energy that I cannot like, it's really hard for me to describe to others, because it's just something that is intrinsic in your person and it's something that is within you, which is really awesome. So that's why I was super excited to invite you on to this episode. So tell us a little bit about you, what you do, how you got into it. Tell us a little. Tell us about you. Give us your story.
Kara:What do you know about us? We have a family of three from the Hauia family, kara, from the Piappiti family, me, I fuck up up to the East Coast, all my aunties, my cousins, they all in that beautiful paradise of Tokomori Bay. I grew up on the West Coast in Whanganui, by the Awa Tsukua, and was raised alongside the uncles, uncle Mohi Apo being one of them. I have an older sister and a younger brother and I have multiple children of my own, married to a Hatsapala old boy, and I think I was real fortunate, like growing up.
Kara:I went to a Catholic school as a five year old, as my beautiful Irish grandmother would be so proud of, and then at the end of that year my dad was like I think we're going to send you to a Kuromori and you know my grandmother was like, watch what's happening.
Kara:But you know, dad and mum felt really strongly about it and they sent me to Kurokukulia and I got to grow up with all the kids of the river and the likes and calibre of Uncle Mohi Apo, uncle Willie Robinson, uncle Sonny McCleary, uncle Tony Scott, dad, all of them. So I was raised by people of just amazing strategic minds and it was the norm All of us kids would go over to home while the dad, like my uncles, mums, aunties, dad would all have a little cup of tea on the side, catch up in the weekend. But actually it was business. They were talking. You know strategy and we're in the lounge singing and dancing to Top of the Pops or Kapa Haka or something. But we grew up soaking in all these great water. I think the jug was boiled 10 times over on a day and sometimes slipped over. So I was inspired by that.
Kara:It couldn't help but be when you're surrounded by it all the time. So my mum's a social worker. They both, my parents, were both teachers at the time, but my mum's moved into social work and my dad's an ewe strategist of sorts. So going from teachers to that very people centric and collective centric. So going to university was definitely a thing for me and I, when I'm thinking I was going to do accounting and economics, which is so not my life, and it's quite funny where I work now that I am in the treasury.
Kara:But social policy, social justice, is really my thing and people centric is what I do. So going to university, studying policy, going into the public service, just seeing the right flow on. But I guess, through my experience of jumping the terrace several times, the different jobs, the need to kind of support Māori in those places, the need to kind of grow the narrative and stories around, how tell Māori can help us enhance everyone's work, the beauty of our culture to everyone I think that's the vibes that I really generate and love doing. I have three beautiful tamariki who keep me energized and honest One about to enter into university in a week, one in secondary and one in primary. So I'm hitting all sectors, almost Two boys and a beautiful girl who, if they're anything like me, being raised by the uncles and aunties, my dad, they're just going to be even more. I don't know what the word is, just that.
Nicola:I think you told them out of this world because they were awesome.
Kara:I'm just like they're just the leaders of tomorrow and they're so inspiring in themselves. I'm just like move over mum, take the reins. They're amazing 10, 14 and almost 19. But in essence, yeah, we get the treasury and my manager there for tell Māori strategy and policy. Always pushing the boundaries around how we think about our policy and quality of advice and, in particular, I love talking about it from a A town. Māori means how it can improve our policy advice, because it comes from a different Call of thinking to what we used to on the terrace. And then I'm also the chair of Te Rauhihi, a charitable trust which is there to support Māori Working in and with the public service, and so, anyway, we can support them in their tari or those working with the public service out in the regions or wherever they are. I just feel like we need to help make those connections more, build the caliber, be more creative, as Tom said, and Waikāne, and, yeah, just live and breathe our culture as much as possible. It's amazing and it's really, I think, kind of me.
Nicola:In a nutshell, you know you mentioned you like to push the boundaries right and that's one of my favorite things about you, I think, is pushing those boundaries. But I'm curious to know what do you think like personality trait wise? What do you think are, like, the key personality traits that help you push those boundaries?
Kara:It's quite funny because not long ago I did this strength finders test. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's kind of like TMI, kind of like all those types of personality characteristic traits, and you get given like a set of 20, and your top five really talk to you the essence of who you are. And my top five, I think the first one was positivity, the second one was connection, the third one was like futuristic, the other one was empathy and I think the other one was I don't know if I think strategy came after it, but it was something around another optimism type thing. But I think, if anything I get this, I think people with the traits of pushing the boundaries and I find myself surrounded by them, which helps push me further as they get.
Kara:You get this gut feeling that you can't deny, like when you're in that hoey and your ears get triggered or your eyes get triggered and the accidental pukema comes out, or you're smiling because you've heard something. You're like, oh, I'm going to play on that. There's this feeling within you where you actually can't sit still about it and you've got to do something. And some people they kind of suppress it or they'll push it down and just sit on it and in that way they might visit it later, whereas I'm one of those ones that kind of have to address it then and there, and I'm very inquisitive. I like to ask questions, I like to know why, which I guess in some ways has come back to bite me, because my kids always ask me why.
Deborah:I think all kids ask why.
Kara:But I know, I think there's this thing about we can always do better, we can always be improving, and that wants for improving the situation, when sometimes it means challenging more than sometimes even I'm ready to challenge, but I do it and I think that that puke feeling, that vibe that we were talking about before, I think that's a real thing and the more we channel it, the better.
Deborah:And I can see that vibe coming through. I mean, I don't know you at all and I can see the passion and I can see the vibe coming through and it's a very positive energy, right. Think about our children, for example. I have two children, two girls. Nicola has a son. I'm thinking about how they are.
Deborah:Mine are very young there, grown up in New Zealand. We're from South Africa, but they've been here since they were two years old and they're starting to learn Maori and storytelling and for me, coming from a country in South Africa, that's very tribal. It just speaks to my heart and every time I see them speaking Maori or bringing some of that tikanga in it, just it makes me feel like, oh my gosh, this is the future, right, this is not just a token, this is like they live and breathe that. My partner is Potmulti. He comes from the Tai Nui tribe well, iwi in Matamata, and I'm starting to learn about his family and his dad and his sisters and brothers and it just gives you that warm feeling, right. So a question for you is lots of companies are bringing in Te Omori and starting to bring, but sometimes it can feel like a bit of a token. How can we live and breathe Maori more, rather than just being okay, we're going to do Te Omori studies or a workshop and that's it.
Kara:Yeah, we'll pass by, and I think everyone's asking themselves that at the moment and it is something that we should be thinking about more and more. I think there's like possibly two answers I have, or responses I have to that One love. I love how our kids are picking up today or through kura. I just think it's so beautiful and how they recognize the songs on the radio when we're at Waitangi Park or Waitangi Day I was in Kaurirua listening to everyone, all the different whanau they're celebrating, beautiful. There's nothing there that's harming. It's natural, right, it's natural, it's beautiful. And I guess it's uniquely Aotearoa too, which this is even more of a treasure for all of us In terms of mahi and offices and companies.
Kara:I think, firstly, the intent of wanting to bring in more of a Te Omori and Tiriti or Tiriti lens is good. That's a good signal that you're wanting to do something. Now, how they do that is where we kind of lead and lift our game more. I think we see the tokenistic stuff where there might be some stuff on the wall, some kupu on the wall, or there might be a blessing of the quite only, but you don't feel and see the Waitua of it being embodied in their mahi, or there's not the. What I said at one Let me reframe it when I went to a board hui. I was invited to a board hui about treaty. I said, you know, understanding the treaty and reading it and understanding what's in it. But then there's another thing about living and breathing it. And so if I walk into your company and I can't feel it, I can't see it, I can't hear it, kind of like our kids, if they can't hear the Waitua of it, they can't see it. Where is it? So that's a big part. Just even dressing the company in a space that helps you feel that vibe, the way you approach and talk to people Kia ora, welcome to blah, blah, blah that's a good vibe.
Kara:Then, actually thinking more in depth around, how does what's your baseline, or each of your staff, in being uniquely hotel doer in your company? If that's your branding, what would that look like? And I don't know if everyone's got that baseline around, what that looks like, whether it's training, whether it's real courses, tikanga, relationships with iwi, māori, kura. There's so much you can pull from. But then there's also actually without, also our direction in this space and it's not just someone writing a strategy, it's the whole of the company and, if not, the leadership owning that direction for the rest, to come in and follow and live. That's still being worked out by some places, but I think this has to be an ongoing conversation.
Kara:Like the status quo is nowhere near. I know those directions of, and people want to be Like. It's about depth. You need to have people that really understand the culture being in the company as well as breath Everyone having by into it. It's a working face. I think many places have really got to that point of destination and in essence, they should never. They should always be pushing forward, but we can be doing so much more. There's great examples out there around how you can really dress a buddy to feel like it and there's some great courses out there to help grow the breath and it's bringing in the depth that I think needs more thought about and that credibility of what we're doing.
Deborah:Yeah, great. And if I think about, I met a health and safety professional from the city mission in Auckland and they told the story around how they created their space or their workspace and how you know it tells a story. So as you walk through, you know, you get that feeling of well-being you can imagine on coming in and not feeling themselves on the streets, walking in and touching you know as they walk past and getting that feeling. So I totally agree with you when it comes to you know having that environment that's conducive to Te Aumori and how we really live and breathe it, rather than you know just we have it in our company.
Deborah:I've seen it too many times.
Kara:Yeah, you know, when it's just the policy and the policy doesn't get off the page, it's kind of like we can do so much better.
Deborah:What do you think health and safety professionals thinking about the well-being space, the health and safety professionals most of our audience are health and safety professionals. You know they love storytelling and that human-centered approach. When you go on to site and you meet the guys, what advice do you have for them going on to the site talking to the guys, how will they break that barrier of you know? Oh no, here comes the safety person again, rather than you know going on site and building rapport and relationships.
Kara:Yeah, I think it's important you're knowing what you're walking into on both sides, like depending on where or who you're talking to, like if you're going into a place which has a strong Maori essence to it, like it could be a whare, it could be a marae of sorts, or it could be quite a Maori-centric company that you're going into. Knowing what you're going into first is a big one knowing who you're going to meet, how you should approach that place you know kaora mhihai, knowing, having a talk to understanding what people are like in that place. But the first thing we ever do when we go into hui is maori, is hono is to connect. How do you across there and I connect to close the gap between us and to become close in relationship. That's number one when you walk into any place or talk to anybody.
Kara:The other thing by understanding the person, it can help you really understand what's needed and the practice and the approach you need to take. Stories is such a big part of hui and we're the best storytellers in the world and understanding comes from that connection. So as you understand a person, you also need to be able to tell a story and a connection to that as well. So I'm not making any sense right now, but if there are issues as to why you can't go into a particular area or there's risk associated to something that might impact their, work or how they are in their workplace.
Kara:Explaining why goes a long way you can't go in there because of these reasons, totally acceptable in most places, but then explaining why and if there's any cultural connection to that, that's the thing that will probably resonate most and for people to go understand that and I can share that on it also makes the next time you come in, if the similar issue happens that, a lot easier. That personable part of us lasts, that's the most impressionable. So those types of things are helpful in helping you create that rapport. I also think if you don't know who you're going and walking into, having someone to call or someone to lean on, that does know that cultural space is probably even more important. To keep yourself safe at the same time, so that your way to end their way to is looked after. And people have probably already said all this stuff, that whole keeping everybody safe is important, not just the person you're serving but yourself Culturally, like I've been in some places where we've had, for example, kohanga.
Kara:We've had speech therapists and health and safety. People come through the Kohanga to help make sure that it's up to the standard it needs to be to function appropriately and you're like, oh, there comes this person who doesn't understand us, who's going to try and speak in a different language to us that we don't understand the timing of which they turn up. If they're speaking English in the space, maybe come right after the kids have gone. Or if you are coming understanding how we work so that you don't expose the kids to a different language when the intention of which is putting to speak in the language. Understand all this stuff, bring it up before you come and kind of getting an idea of the approach makes a difference to them going oh, next time this person's coming. Oh, we know how, he knows what's going on and it just makes things a bit easier. But there's so much to making our practice a little bit more culturally safe for everyone. Having friends is so helpful too.
Deborah:Yeah.
Nicola:I've kind of got two questions and they're tied together and we'll kind of start on the one end of the spectrum and kind of move into the media part of the question there. But I was recently reading a book around how women naturally take on kind of non-promotable tasks In the workplace. Women will go in and, oh, I'll organize the morning tea for Joanne's going away party, or oh, I'll sweep up whatever it is. Oh, someone made a mess, oh, I'll get it, and it's non-promotable tasks for women.
Nicola:But I feel, you know, after spending a lot of time working with Muihi, I noticed that the same thing happens, but with Muihi, where these non-promotable tasks that keep getting kind of imparted, you know, onto whomever it is, because you're bringing your whole of person to work and it's very difficult to disconnect between that work environment and that whole of vulnerable person that you're bringing in as a Māori person. Right, it's a different mindset. So I'm just curious to know from your perspective, how do we change that narrative in the workplace that we keep offloading these absolutely benign tasks for no particular reason other than the fact that you're coming to work as Māori? How do we just change that completely? How do we get rid of that shift, put it in the coffin, put it in the bin.
Kara:I'm still trying to figure it out myself. To be honest, if anything, myself, my team, the trust I work in we acknowledge all those just on the side. We acknowledge all those couple of team-makers, those sweepers, because they're just integral to any Māori or any Hui being functioning. So you do mihi to the cooks, you mihi to everyone In mahi around the culture. I don't know if you saw, but we did a post on our social media platforms around public servant versus Māori public servant.
Nicola:Yes, I saw that.
Kara:Yeah, that just took off because I think the reality of that was sobering for many. So we're on the public servant side, we had specialist area underneath the title and then on the Māori public servant side you had specialist area and every other cultural aspect of the agency and it is something I think many Māori are trying to correct. I would say correct because I think it is an error. Because you're Māori and you're in a space where there's very few other Māori and I'm just talking from experience you are caught on to do everything Māori, from blessing the biscuits to being asked to bless Pāināmu earrings for a friend or being asked to help teach Pēpūhā. When you're a policy expert, not every Māori person is. We're in a generation where we're still feeling the impacts of the past generation who were beaten for not speaking te reo or for speaking te reo, I should say and we're still feeling the trembles of that. The next generation, our babies, they're falling the full force of the love for that because we've come from this big journey through. So some of the people in my generation are still like they don't have te reo, but then they're being asked to do these things and then the impact on them being able to having to say I can't do that. That's not good for the way you are having to be put in that position when they are probably trying they are in real classes but they're just not there yet. So also, the same thing as we're getting asked to leave the Waitangi week celebrations or to a kiautereo, anyone's there is Māori Some are and when you do see them stepping in, it's because they are trying to help.
Kara:I do think that there needs to be more consideration around what's needed in a company or an agency, around RIL and tikanga, and it's not that Māori in a different role to be able to lead. They actually have dedicated resources. So like sometimes you see a Māori capability advisor who actually ends up him to do the poor for the, the pepaha, the training, but actually their focus might be just language. The RIL might be the expertise, but the tikanga might come from the iwi that we can bring in. There's different ways to bring in the calibre but it's not an add-on to all the other roles. I actually was in an interview I'll share this where it was to lead Māori policy units. I've been part of the interview because I've got this experience in policy. I've done this. I've incorporated the treaty and done a whole lot of analysis in these ways, sharing all my examples and they're like well, being a part of this agency, you will also be charged with leading the capability shift of all the agency.
Kara:In terms of Māori and cultural intelligence, I go well, that's a second job, that's not— that's a full-time job and it's full-time. And then it's helping us. It's just like well, I believe that would be an HR role or a dedicated role, not Māori. And they're like well, no, we're looking for someone that can do it all. And I'm like well, I'm not a super Māori. They can do it all in here, I can, but you can probably pay me more for like five jobs. That would be amazing, but that's what people are asking for in these places.
Kara:That's the reality of those that don't understand and don't know who are hiring, and it's kind of like—that was a while ago, so I'm hoping that it's shifted since then in that particular space.
Kara:But it's not fair, and so you should be getting the right people in those spaces and not just adding on to people. But, in the same essence, I can't sit in a full headie and not help out if I see things and needing to be done at the same time, because if an auntie or an uncle or a cousin come in that room and they see me there and Tikanga is not going well and things aren't happening right, they will come for me. They're like why didn't you do something? So there's two ways to it. But I actually do think our companies need to get a bit more schooled up on the cultural tax that they're putting on extra on Māori staff, that, whether they know it or they don't, it's happening and those that do know that they're doing it. It's not okay unless the staff member's okay with that, which, to be honest, it's a whole nother role. Like we just said, there's a lot of things that need to be done.
Nicola:It kind of then flows into this next part, that is, I want to say, a little bit more meaty. Earlier this year I was reading a research article from back in 2016,. I know Wilde, who was with Rūwhihu and Alkin, and they spoke about how Māori leadership principles are actually harmoniously integrated into modern leadership principles and how it kind of underscores the importance of human values like respect I can't even speak English now Utu, giving it backwards and forwards and community care, and that those concepts then resonate deeply with leadership styles, right like general, just basic run of the mill. Everybody's got a leadership style. And then there's this like almost ecosystem perspective on leadership, emphasizing the interconnectedness of the organization and how deeply rooted it is in culture and how simple it would be for other organizations just to essentially pick this up because it's just part of how leadership should work. So, from your perspective, what for you is kind of the key integrations that you make on a day to day basis in that leadership space.
Kara:There's little part of it, like there's multiple things there, like they say it's saying tika pono aroha. It's in Pasama of the way of tāpa, tika pono aroha are things that I ran by. So tika is it right? So does it feel just? It's also the lead in for tikanga. You know, tika Pono is true. Am I being true to myself? Am I being true to others? And then aroha, always leading with love. So that's like the values.
Kara:And then for the leadership, further to that, kota hitanga. Am I well connected enough? Like? Am I thinking?
Kara:Unity here it's about the wing of the eye, so the power of the collective is big for me. So it's kota hitanga, and then manaki tanga. How am I supporting and letting the people to where we need to be? And those are real simple things that any I would assume any reader would want to lead out with. But what I'm doing just is what I'm doing with integrity and truth. And then am I leading out with love and looking after the people, like that would be the core. And so all the tangas are kota hitanga, manaki tanga, whanau tanga, tikanga, kaetea hitanga. All of that just comes under this beautiful way of how to do it, which I, you know in talking to others in the different agencies I've worked in, it just rings so true to people and I think it's a really true statement. I think it's the way in which ta Māori want to lead and to run would resonate with everybody If we just took the time to understand it a bit more. There's so much in there.
Deborah:Totally agree. If I think about most organisations that I've worked for, the words that come to mind is be curious, be vulnerable, lead with empathy, so all those things you're talking about. It's like why do we have to make it so complicated? Let's get back to the roots, right? And what are we all about? And how do we make sure that we are inclusive and diverse? And we have so many different people in New Zealand? It's like a cosmopolitan country, right. We've got immigrants from all over the world, me being one of them. I think it just seems that if we all came together I know this isn't a perfect world, but if we all came together and actually listened to one another, you would find that we would have so many similarities, right?
Kara:Absolutely Like I went over to Uluru last year. I've never been there in my life. Apart from that, it was for women's leadership course.
Nicola:I remember seeing that on LinkedIn. It looked amazing, it was cool. Uluru is the big mountain in the fancy mountain, which is like super mystical and like super special in Australia, like the big red one, oh, okay.
Kara:I've never seen that rock before Israel, israel, israel and I've never seen red earth. I was just like mind blowing. I was like, well, I got off the plane because there were 60 of us and there were three indigenous people within that 60, and three Kiwis myself, nicola and Francis and they were from Auckland. So it took me taking the link to go. But when I got off the plane and I put my feet on this red earth.
Kara:I was just like mind blowing. I could feel the way it was, you could just feel it. I was like man, this is deep, and as we made our way to our accommodation, you're just surrounded by Israel and the people. Now the level of oppression and colonisation that I felt too was unreal, like we know it in Otelroa, but understanding it's still, and how deep it is there, next level. So when we eventually, when we had a ceremony to welcome us to country with the mob there, the connection that I had with them was so real. They looked like my aunties, they were number one and, of all the places to pick their language in, that mob was so close to Te Reo Māori, which I understand the amount of languages that they have there, but that one was so close that we could understand almost each other. And I was just mind blowing about those connections that we had and the more we talked the stories that they told of how they are to be, where they want to go. We're so aligned and, apart from this course allowing this to be, I don't know if we would have even met, but we are connected. The only way is the way they talk about the stars, the way they talk about the land, the air, everything. It was just like, wow, we are, we must have a proper tier than we have before us, just mind blowing.
Kara:Then we went sharply into. We went from rural, cultural, the people, into private sector and then into public sector. It was two days, two days, two days. We went to Sydney for private sector conversation around Indigenous names, which is just that difference to what we were in like in Uluru. And then we went into the public sector, went into Canberra and had a big talk about how do the government connect, what do they do.
Kara:And this was all during the time of the voice to see. Everything was heightened and it was actually really beautiful and the ladies on that floor were amazing, especially with many of them not having that cultural depth and understanding the way that they connected immediately. And that was multiple, as you see, cosmopolitan of cultures, 60 women travelling together across those places, experiencing the same but different. It was unreal and I totally believe here, the more I connect with and talk and understand people in my Māori policy team we have Scottish people with their clan.
Kara:We talk about the clan, we talk about the staff, because that's who they are and actually we're so connected. There's similarities everywhere and it just makes for where we're heading and how we work together just even more beautiful. So I'll always be connected to those aunties or they keep going. Our friend, you're an auntie in Uluru. They've given me their son's phone numbers because they work in Indigenous studies and it's just like, yes, we need to connect. The hope of being more connected and moving forward in a good way is real. I just think sometimes how we get there and lifting ourselves out of some tough environments takes a bit longer.
Nicola:It was something Deb's and I spoke about, so we went over to Sydney in November last year for I was thinking about that experience.
Nicola:Oh, we are boys and we were really, I want to say we were taken aback, underwhelmed, underwhelmed, and we were really you know what I'm going to call it, what it was we were quite pissed off. Actually, we were quite pissed off. We got to this event that was so beautifully constructed and so beautifully defined around safe connection, right Connection, connection Everything was about connection. But the one thing that they left off the entire flipping agenda was the connection to the people that they were doing this on their land. So they had one. It made us reflect on New Zealand right. With every single thing that we do, we are trying our hardest to tie Te Aumori into everything that we do. We Opening Karekea. It sets the baseline for what we're going to talk about. We were going to go in their conversation how do we connect? There was none of that. There was one opening event, which it was just like a token, right.
Nicola:It was just, it was absolutely tokenistic. It was heartbreaking to watch because, in comparison to what we would do, it's like you have not connected the audience to the people of the land that you are trying to uplift. There is no upliftment here, it's an absolute.
Deborah:Another. It was not genuine. You know when it's genuine, if I think about events, specifically where I work and when we go into a huge event, we have the local Iwi and we are a health policing and it's just. It grounds everyone and it brings everyone together. And that specific incident I'm going to call it wasn't incident. It was like what is this? Yeah, it just didn't feel the connection and it didn't feel like it brought people together. So this is probably a question, nicola, around how do organizations do it? Well, what would you see as your aspiration for organizations if they're opening an event or they want to bring that feeling of connection and bringing people together? What is your task for them?
Kara:Well, if anything I can, I can. I totally identify what your incident was. In Sydney I've been through conference with even an old Te Oroa where the diversity corridor or how do you incorporate more of a tell model, and then there's at the end of the agenda and everyone knows on those last days, the last secret. Everyone gets it. They go on to the airport or they're doing catch ups downstairs because they haven't had a chance, but leaving it to the end. No, no.
Kara:And what happened is this beautiful Dongan woman stood up and she said when it was question time for a panel of us, myself, there was a lovely Malaysian lady who was representing an Asian panning and then someone there panning. And then there was someone else who was also amazing and really I've said I forgot her name, but she stood up at the end and she goes. I'm really sorry that you guys are at the end. This room has half the size. You should have been right up the front. So, if anything, my advice to companies, or to businesses or to conferences bring a quarter to the front. Don't just do a Daila Maori, a Daila Pohiri or Daila Waiata. We've been there before If people are coming to open your hui, if they're anywhere coming to open your hui.
Kara:You allow time for them to share their pokarball on the front. And it's the same when you go to Noho Marae and you have a business planning or a team building. If you're going to someone's marae, you make space for them and you make sure everyone's there and listening. What we say is puhuret, puhuret, puhuret, puhuret. You're there from beginning to end and no one's leaving until the karakir is being said. The gold usually comes through those places that we don't usually hear and we should hear more of. So I say bring it to the front.
Kara:Today, higiri came about because of the confidence I went to where the mispronunciation of words, the way in which they said people's names were wrong, of our rangatira. The questions were so 101 in a space which was for leaders internationally, and I was just like this is just not okay. We should be doing more. I'll be asking people to think what's uniquely out there. I'll bring it to the front. There's depth in there that you can't get out of anywhere else, and then actually having a cup of tea afterwards is even further gold. So we really get to connect a bit more. The tokenistic stuff is no, when people know it, hate it. Oh, I absolutely hate it.
Deborah:Stop it, do better. Exactly, and the thing is that I think about Africa and I think about my connection to Africa and, although they have their problems, it's still that sense of pride and growing up myself with Zulu people and those are speaking people and for me and my family and my dad speaks fluently and I just admired that so much and it's so similar to Aotearoa and I think that connecting with one another and where you come from and you'll probably, like you said, you find that you are so connected in different ways, but really it's the same, but maybe in a different language. Right, that's right, it's totally different.
Kara:I guess sometimes you've got to understand the why. Why are you having this whee, why are you opening the whee within this way and what are the things that you can unlock through having the swings to open and close? But my mum's a great example. So my mum has Irish ancestry. She grew up here in Aotearoa. She's like four foot tall, blonde green eye, but she's like five foot and she was such a big supporter of us.
Kara:I'm standing growing up in our own culture and when my kids, when I was having my big boy, she was like I'm going to go into their mum and I'm like mum, almost 50. What's going on? She's like I know you're going to speak Maori to your baby and I know that you're going to raise them in that language, so I'm going to go and learn it. And she was in the class of 30. I love her and she was a class of 30. At the time it was a one in the Te Whanau Aotearoa course. I think it was Aotearoa and she was one of three that stuck it all the way through, because then Sita was there, love for her, moko was there and it was one. I went and my mum was like growing up we used to tease how she used to pronounce some of the kapu and we used to love it and laugh and she thought it was funny.
Kara:But her wants and I was strong and I would encourage anyone in the workplace to understand the way a bit more and what's the incentive to do better, be it, you know, to get a better outcome and how you work with people, or to a branding exercise that actually grows and strengthens who you are, or there's always a reason, but what's that? One reason that makes you lift even higher is the thing to question. Thinking that it's okay to tick the box until a token thing is not okay and you need to do more. Yeah, One of the things.
Deborah:I don't know if I answered the question actually. Yeah, no, very well, thank you.
Nicola:One of the things I think you know at the minute. You know you're talking about that incentive and that kind of you know connection, regardless of who you are, your mum, as long as you've got that incentive, you know you want to learn more and I know there's quite a lot of research around. When you learn a new language, it changes your brain structure to be understanding of that culture and you start absorbing it into the way that you think. I'm curious to know, and I think this might be quite a tricky question, maybe one of those that we can navigate together. But you know, as a policy expert, we've just had Waikangi Day this week. What a day. I'm curious to know.
Nicola:I know that that Waidua is off. It is weird at the moment. As an expert in that space, how are you feeling about the changes that have been spoken about, about, I want to say the, the attack on what is currently known as our baseline, and how are you seeing people respond or feel about that? Question A and question B how do we better support people in the workplace that might be feeling the repercussions of that?
Deborah:Good question. Good question, great question.
Kara:And I probably have to be a little bit careful here and how I respond. I think you're working for the government at the same time. You know, I think I think one of the coolest things that happened to me during this time of you know the sound bites we hear in social media and you know Minister Jones, my tool, shane said recently and then to them you know a lot of it's political calling propaganda to try and get as much people listening as possible One of the coolest thing that happened during that time of people really debating the treaty and all that sort of stuff was our leaders and Mahi called us the sign and said how are you feeling? Wow, yeah, the thought of them thinking about us and being triggered in their way was huge for us. Like you thought about this. Whether they could do anything about it was another thing, but you know which actually there was, but the actual they took time to go to acknowledge this is probably impacting you. We're going to take you to the side and just say how are you doing? What can we do? This may be challenging. Acknowledging that is a challenge was a big thing. And I know in other places some people, some Maori publics, who didn't get there and so they look to some of us to help and be someone alongside them.
Kara:It's hard to kind of pin how I'm really feeling because there's lots of ups and downs, like there's moments where I'm like maybe working with Iwi on the Iwi side might give my way to a little lift that it needs. But actually if I move out of where I am, the connection to Iwi, the connection to Dalmauro, would lessen where I am for the policies that need to be seen and have that expertise and that voice around it. So there's importance in staying in this space to have that voice and to share what I know is the evidence and data that pulls us maybe in a different direction or might present the policies in a different way that might talk more to our people. And when I say my people I mean not only Māori but all people. And I've got to ask. I feel like my team are seasoned public servants. They're seasoned policy experts so they know the waves of ups and downs governments have in this space. So they're quite resilient but they shouldn't have to be at the same time and I'm really conscious of that. So that people centric space that I'm a manager, I've channeled that most over the last six months.
Kara:How's your way to one? So when we have our team play, I'm like, right, we'll go around the table. How's our way to it? What's on top and what's something to inspire us moving forward, or a kororo or something like that, and we all have a turn and when the war might be off, we're there to support each other. But I've definitely felt myself channeling more the people centric side of the more emotional intelligence side than I have my other intelligences.
Kara:What I'm hearing out there is mixed. People are feeling optimistic in some places, actually we could go this way and how we do it, so really strategising, and then other places where people have been told, you know, actually we might just be a bit quiet on these things a little bit until we know a bit more, or we're not going to attend these hui because it might put you in a space where you have to talk about fertility or terril, which we don't want to kind of give more rise to right now. And actually I'm quite open about, I feel like, doing most types of actions is like regression and oppression.
Kara:We've got such a good story around how much we've grown as a nation of terril and, if anything, more attention has been given to terri, to terri tea, and a long time ago. But in the sense you know it's more. But it's all right now about action and what we can do about it. I feel sorry for some of my colleagues that don't have that support behind them and they're trying to find it and they're trying to do it. So emphasis for me right now is connection. So if I can bring more teams to get that through Rohi Hidi Tharwa vim to support iwi to hold a vim, I'll be there to do it. There's a really tough space when you're feeling like tea and malty rather than here malty, and in a time like this when everything's getting really questioned. Yeah, I don't know if I'm answering the question directly, but I think the way we're going to do it is we need to do more to look after our own public servants.
Deborah:We need to keep that connection no matter what. So that, to me, is quite important, and if I think about women in safety and why we did and I think about the why we did this podcast was really to connect women together to be able to excel and to be able to support one another. There's too much happening in the world for us not to support one another. So, yeah, thank you, you've been an inspiration. I really, really loved the Kourero and I'm trying my best at malty and trying to. I always ask my kids to explain and translate for me. Yeah, it's really been an awesome conversation.
Kara:Yeah, I guess, if anything, as we think more about malty public servants or any malty crime, malty malty workers, there's also an important place for our colleagues, and as many refer to themselves as tanghatsu titty. Like you know, there's got to be something happening there that they can. We can all help each other in some way. Yeah, thank you for the court at all.
Deborah:It's been nice way to start the day.
Nicola:I think probably my last like serious question is I'm curious to dig a little bit more into how you use storytelling at like. How do you weave that in? How are you creating those stories that really empower people to you know, get on board with whatever it is that you know, whatever the work is that you're creating, what is how? Tell us more.
Kara:I'm trying to think of examples of anything like I am a big person on storytelling like I love stories and I was the third most into base about that.
Kara:I'm going to give an example. In the treasury not many people know that but there's a farinui on level three. I know it used to be actually on level 14 and it got moved. It used to be called the Maraian Sky. But there's a group of farinui and some people say it is the heart of the treasury because it's right at the centre. And then how we connect that to our work?
Kara:So there's different elements of the farinui that are the different tikutika panels, the designs, and then it's spread throughout the rest of the building and now it's not creeping but it's been integrated more into our reports and see how we do our work. So everything will have a name. So there's like a pun of this and a pun of that and a pun of this, and because our fari is called Naamuka puna farinui, and so we're taking that word from Muka puna, the puna this spring and the I don't even know how to say it in English but the pool of knowledge and the space in which we can grow we use that to name everything. And as we have these reports pop up and we say actually we think we should give it the same and then interweave more of the essence throughout it. It's design, it's story, how we tell the story, like it begins here and then it goes right through to here we are today and then it continues. There's this opening to keep the corner going further, we sit down with teams and we explain it.
Kara:This is how this connects here and they're like, ah, wow. And then the next time you tell the story it's a bit more like they tell it. You start from a different place because they've already got a depth of understanding from the previous space Story to Hana is so good in so many places, even my friend, my father, hanna Ihaka McLeod. She has this beautiful story about advice she was giving around an environmental space and how government was wanting to propose a road in a particular area and the local Iwi was saying actually you might want to reconsider going here because there's a farming farm that is around this area, so there's likely to be an impact if you disturb the fennel oil, you disturb the land there, or if you build, it's not going to be good and at that time the people that we surveyed and did this stuff, they were like oh, it's just a bit fluffy fluffy.
Kara:Well, I think they did try to. I don't know if it went all the way, but once they started to move the land, things didn't go well. There was a tailwind that was making things wrong. There was a whole lot of other things that were happening and it was just like the people were saying we told you. So there's a whole understanding of the story. Being able to hear it. It's just huge. And even like Uncle Mohi and I asked Wilson look, I'm creating this teriyomaori strategy for all schools. What could be some of the names in which we think about? And he goes well, you could think about this name, but it comes from here. It's not just the pick apart type thing. You can go, oh, I like that name Sounds nice. It's actually going to understand the depth of it and the way those guys tell the story. It's just mind blowing, amazing, and you can't not forget that stuff.
Nicola:No Right, the best way as well to learn the language, because you have such an intimate understanding of the word and the description of the word. It's now burnt into your brain for all of eternity.
Deborah:Yeah, but that goes back to health and safety. Right, we try to get people to do stuff. Right, we put all these rules and regulations and things in place. But going back to understanding, why aren't we telling more stories? Why aren't we incorporating that into our policies and our procedures and our guidelines? And, rather than all these big words, why are we not telling the story the day in a life of a health and safety representative? What does that look like, you know? Why do they do what they do? How can they help our people? So I think it builds such a good understanding and connection to health and safety. Rather than it being okay. Here comes the health and safety people. They're here to tell us what to do. Right, it's more around. Let's listen to the people, because they're the ones that do the work every single day. Why would we not take on board what they're saying and put it into our policies and procedures? Right?
Kara:One of the coolest things that I've taken away. I've taken a few cool things away, but some of the managers and CS and DCs that I've worked with, there was one in particular Papa Wayne Napa. We went into a. He probably won't remember this, but we went into a and he goes. So why are we here? And I'm like, oh, are we here to talk about blah, blah, blah? Because you know. But why are we here? And I go well, I'm here to do this. And then this person's got this activity and that's why they're here. And you're here, because you need to sign the block. You guys know why we're here. And I was like what's this? Like Big question? And he goes why are we here? What's the vision? Why are we here at work? Why are we here in this project? Why is this even here? And so what he was trying to do was bring the vision of everything we're doing back into the fall for this meeting. We don't do that enough. We kind of go into these hui and we go right.
Kara:So they were just doing dum dum, dum, and then we go off and do what we need to do, but actually we kind of lose sight of what's the ultimate vision. And so, starting the hui with, but what's the vision and man, that brings it back? And now I'm like that with all policy work that I do when you're starting to describe the purpose or background or any contextual information, I want to know right up front in your opening, what is the vision, what is the logic as to why we're here? And then you tell how does that tie to what we're doing right now? And then what is the methodology that will give life to that? That's exploring itself.
Kara:And in some ways I challenge our Māori public servants a little bit better. Sometimes, when we have hui and they talk about, because of the treaty, this, this, this and this, this article, this, article, this I'm like you don't need to say that to me, I totally understand that. To the te argument Now I would love to hear from you how we give life to the treaty, rather than starting these other reasons, because you can put that further down in the paper. What will make this titility? But what is this lifting the sub page? What embodies that? That's what I want to know Right up the front, and that's I love the beauty of the storytelling in that way as well.
Nicola:Awesome, really resonates. This has been an amazing chat. Thank you, it was something.
Nicola:We have a bit of a closing tradition on podcast. It's. It's very silly and it's I want to describe. I want to describe it as like charades with words, because obviously people on the podcast are listening. They can't see what we're doing. Oh, good point. Yeah, Charades with words. So what we, what we get our host guests to do, is describe a couple of things in their handbag per satchel, whatever it is that you carry around. Describe it to us and we will try our best to guess what is in your handbag.
Kara:Okay, okay, what's this to me? Oh, there's nothing cool. What's something cool? Okay, all right, just a word and then you've got to get it. Okay, um, I don't know, that gives the way. What about Eyes Blosses?
Nicola:Glasses case.
Deborah:Glasses case. There's a glass a little bit Okay, this is going to be a bit tougher.
Kara:Um, oh, it's all in the name of it. Um, you can use more than one word I can, okay.
Deborah:Um, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say, um.
Kara:Spotify.
Deborah:Oh phone Headphones.
Kara:Um, uh, chargeable Earpods, earpods. I'm turning right there. I'm like I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say.
Deborah:This is a hard one oh.
Kara:And then, there, I can, I can. And then the other one, um, um, in confidence. Hmm, this seems to sound Deodorant Diary, um.
Deborah:Um, um, okay, I give up. I need you to Uh, uh that uh notebook, surely?
Kara:Uh, I've got a few um policy papers.
Deborah:Oh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. Okay, what do?
Kara:I say but yeah, there's like five notebooks to be at the same time. I'm such a notebook person, are you actually? I am totally. I love writing on the books.
Deborah:You're talking to the obsessed with notebooks, nicola.
Kara:Oh well, hello hi, I need a phone to call new one. I'm just I'm obsessed with, like old school paper.
Nicola:Um, you know what? I will give one to Moki, and next time you see him, tell him he's got a notebook for you.
Kara:Oh yeah, thank you. I love that you have a notebook. Um can tell you I love them.
Nicola:I'm actually. I'm actually trying a new one this year. Um, I'm trying a new one. It's it's a little thicker and so a little bit thicker, but I quite like it. It's a low strom. You know those like, uh, the low strom ones. Yeah, it's a little bit different because I went with like the thicker paper, so I think it's like 140 GSM or something, so it's a cardboard paper. It's great.
Deborah:I love your notebooks because they've just got the most amazing paper in them, um, except, my kids keep stealing them.
Nicola:So Well, it has been an amazing chat, thank you. And where can people find you? What can people do to hunt you down if they also want to check with you?
Kara:Oh, and why that's the cup of tea. Um, you can just help me up on LinkedIn or which is, I think I think it's Cara and New Piappa 2 or Cara Apatook. Um, linkedin mostly, or today, um is the trust. But yeah, if you find me on social media and just see me, a message always came for a cup of tea, that's not real tea, cup of tea and Piappa Can.
Deborah:I heat up a bit more.
Kara:Oh no, I can't supply. Thank you, and I just felt like it was so easy to talk to you guys. Awesome, mmm, and all the best with safety. I love the podcast. I do. I love the podcast, yeah.
Deborah:We need more. We have so much to get and so much expertise and a different way of looking at things and from what I picked up in terms of the summary, storytelling, connection and being in things and we can be influential Absolutely- we don't need, yes, people all the time, but we do want to be the people who want to be and what's best for others and being bold to speak up.
Kara:Yep.
Nicola:Absolutely Awesome Thank you so much.
Kara:We really appreciate it.
Nicola:No thank you All the best.
Kara:Thank you Do you have a nice closing kind of key that we could use. I do. It's one we use in Trujille. He's one of our uncles. He's taught everyone in Trujille which is really simple, really age-friendly and encourages many people to use it as possible, and it's simply Piki te kaha, piki te ora, piki te wairua kia tātou Pui e Pa I kia, which is, you know, maybe we're being good health, maybe we lift our energy and we are a mayas go on street, awesome. And that's us titled together.
Nicola:Take care I like that one because it's simple.
Kara:Oh, that's cool.
Deborah:Simple, but cool.
Kara:Yeah, I probably didn't do it just as in translation, but it's so easy I can bust it out of the in the wheat every time. Awesome, awesome, well kia, ora I'll leave you two.
Nicola:Have an amazing rest of the day.
