SafeTEA Podcast with Nicola and Deborah
Join hosts Nicola Knobel and Deborah Pitout on 'SafeTea,' a podcast where the conversation about safety gets personal, powerful, and a bit of 'tea' is always spilled! In each episode, Nicola and Deborah dive deep into the world of safety leadership, viewed through the lens of inspiring women in New Zealand and beyond.
At 'SafeTea,' it's not just about policies and procedures; it's about people. Our hosts bring their unique perspectives and experiences to the table, engaging in candid conversations with remarkable women who are reshaping the landscape of safety in their fields. From trailblazing leaders to unsung heroes, each guest brings a wealth of knowledge, experience, and inspiring stories to share.
But 'SafeTea' is more than just interviews; it’s a movement. Nicola and Deborah are here to empower and uplift, turning the spotlight on the achievements, challenges, and insights of women in safety. They delve into topics ranging from overcoming workplace obstacles to the importance of mental health and wellbeing, all while fostering a sense of community and connection.
Whether you're a safety professional, aspiring leader, or simply someone who believes in the power of women's voices, 'SafeTea' is your go-to podcast. So grab a cup of tea and join us for empowering conversations that aim to make a difference, one story at a time.
SafeTEA Podcast with Nicola and Deborah
S1E8: Harnessing a Growth Mindset for Transformative Leadership Success
When Tash, a seasoned HR professional and mindset coach, graced us with her presence, we uncovered a treasure trove of insights on leadership and personal growth. Her journey from the corporate world to coaching isn't just inspiring—it's a road map for anyone looking to pivot their approach to work and life. Tash's story is one of transformation, where personal setbacks catalyzed a profound mindset shift that redefined her understanding of effective leadership. Her wisdom suggests that it's not just about the roles we play, but how we perceive and navigate our professional landscapes that shapes our impact.
Through our conversation, the importance of a growth mindset in learning and leadership took center stage. Tash and I peeled back the layers of traditional tenure-based perspectives and uncovered how continuous learning and adaptability are the true muscles of leadership fitness. With practical advice at the ready, we showed how 'catch, challenge, change' isn't just a clever mantra—it's a cognitive workout to integrate personal development into the rhythm of everyday life. We also dissected the varied fabric of learning styles and the art of 'skill stacking' to enrich our professional identities, reminding us that our journey as leaders is as unique as our fingerprint.
As we wrapped up our enlightening chat, we delved into creating psychologically safe spaces, particularly for women forging their path in leadership roles. Tash emphasized the power of self-praise and shared strategies to counter imposter syndrome—imagine a 'win jar' brimming with your successes, tangible proof of your journey. And, as a special treat, I shared my own entrepreneurial leap, starting a cloth nappy business that weaved the threads of leadership and mindset into a tapestry of success. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's an open door to a world where leadership is constantly redefined and where a growth mindset is the cornerstone of not just surviving, but thriving.
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Hello Tash, hello Tash, yes.
Nicola:Welcome to this episode. We're really excited to have you on the episode. We know. You know we'd spoken just a little bit earlier about how we met almost a year ago at the Disrupt HR stuff and your presentation at that was just awesome. I feel like we were both equally as nervous, but you pulled it off way better than I did and it really got me kind of following your page and following all of your insights around growth mindset and leadership and developing leaders, emerging leaders, how challenging it is for leaders and kind of keeping up that momentum that we get with.
Nicola:you know that kind of leadership scope that we're in and we kind of tunnel vision that leadership and kind of getting people to think outside the box a little bit. So in your own words would you like to tell us a little bit about you and what you do?
Tash:Yes. So thank you for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat with you both. So me. So my professional background is in human resources, so I studied HR and then went into my first role in corporate HR and I've worked in a range of different organizations. I've worked for primary government, I've worked for secondary Sorry, that's okay In the health sector and worked for consulting companies, membership organizations. So I've worked in quite a number of different environments and I guess for me, across my HR career, I how do I say this without, like I don't know, I've never, I've never always fit in into the, into the mold of. This is how we do things, this is how it should be done. This is, you know, the process that we follow in HR is very much about that, very much about the process. But I was always a why? Person or a challenge or a questioner, like why are we doing this? Why can't we try this? Like what are we really trying to do here? And so I always I kind of jumped around thinking, oh, like, if I just go somewhere else, it'll be different.
Tash:And in 2015, I was made redundant towards the end of the year and that was kind of the well, I was also broken up with four days before that. So it's a good time. It's a great time for me and my career and I said to myself I'm never going to be permanently employed again. You know, it was like what really was security? You know, this is 2015. So this is not 2020 yet, and that obviously showed us what really is security. You know, that really, really warped our minds. But after that, I started taking fixed term roles and I, you know, said like I'm going to, you know, start my process to work for myself. And also, just I started doing HR consulting work as well and I just decided I was like, well, if being in, like immersed in an organization doesn't quite fit my personality, then being external to that probably fits better, because they want you to come in and do things differently. Well, so, they say.
Tash:And then started my journey and I met my now husband and he was studying coaching and I also found myself in an environment where I was not a professional. I was in an environment. So I took a fixed term job and it was with a prestigious company. It was like the label on the CV. That was everything I wanted and it was just not.
Tash:It was the most unfit place for me and I kind of started spiraling, you know, spiraling in my mindset and I, you know, kind of got into that victim mentality and Kyle, my now husband, said wherever you go, you will be. Because again, I was like I'll just jump, I'll just go somewhere else. And he said, wherever you go, you will be. And this is the mindset piece, like wherever you take yourself, you're going to show up there, you know. So if you find yourself having the same experience over and over again, who's the common denominator and that experience? You know, and how are you showing up and that experience and who are you being? And you know what are the actions you're taking, what are the things that you're thinking and what are the, the, the elements that you're focusing on.
Tash:And that's when I worked with my first coach and I kind of got this experience of coaching. I was like, oh my God, this is like life changing. This is wild. I can actually shift my thinking. I can change my whole connection to my community and how I experience it and how I move through it. And that's when I did my own coaching certification, then built my own coaching practice and then I moved away from from HR because, again, I was constantly kind of getting stuck in change processes and things like that, again very reactive, focused. And so then I got into coaching, started my own practice and kind of went full circle and went back into corporates. And so now I coach full time in corporates, either running my programs or one on one leadership team coaching.
Tash:And my whole premise is change your mind, to change your experience. You know, like, how can we, how can we work on the mindset as the fundamental foundation to every piece, to to shift, to shift the experience. And I work on that both personally and professionally. You know, if someone works with me, we're not just talking about who they are at work or what's going on at work or your job, it's about everything. It's about everything about who you are, about your life, about, you know, personal life, all of those things. All of that comes into play. But fundamentally it's about mindset and that's why I focus on mindset and then in the, in the realm of leadership, so I'm curious to know a little bit more.
Nicola:when you talk about that like leadership and growth mindset, in your own definition or in your own words, what does that mean to you and how do you define that for yourself?
Tash:So I guess when I think about leadership and growth mindset, I'm thinking about or I'm talking about who are you seeing yourself as a leader? You know, I was just actually commenting on something this morning on LinkedIn. There was another coach doing some research on emerging challenges and you know, and I made the comment, that I think we're still to tunnel vision, to now definition of leadership and what leadership is, whereas leadership is irrelevant of position, stature, tenure, experience, skill set. It's irrelevant of any of those things. Leadership is about who you are being moment to moment. It's about how you are interacting and responding moment to moment, and that's essentially what mindset is as well. It's about how we're interacting, responding to and connecting with the world around us, right, it's it makes up of. It's made up of our beliefs and our views and our assumptions and perceptions and all of those things.
Tash:And when I think about leadership and mindset together and especially like that growth mindset piece, it's that curiosity is that it's that constant learning, right, that beginners mind, and this is the other part about leadership.
Tash:I think we get so fixated and stuck in. It's like we're looking to people with more experience to be the leaders. That doesn't necessarily mean a good thing, you know, someone who has more experience or who has been somewhere for a long time or has tenure, or that isn't necessarily good, it's not necessarily beneficial, because what is the healthiness of that mindset, you know? Is it entrenched in you know, in those structures or in you know as institutionalized, is it molded too much? You know all of those things. But whereas I think about a truly powerful leader, whether self empowering or external empowering to others, is that growth mindset, is that, hey, I know things, like I'm good at certain things, you know, that's why I've gotten to where I have, and I still have so much more to learn and I still don't know everything and I probably still don't know enough about that thing, but that's why I'm here to talk and ask questions and have those conversations. But it ultimately is embedded in that growth mindset of I know stuff and I'm also here to learn a whole more.
Deb:I think you're so right in saying around and being curious and I think that word curious has come up a number of times in our last podcast and it's been amazing because for me and Nicola and our kind of mindset, we both have a growth mindset, we both very curious, we're both really wanting to learn more and my just for the audience. It takes time to learn things. It takes time and effort to put aside to be able to build on yourself. I say we never stop learning. There's always something to learn. What advice do you have for those? I'm a mother, they have children, they have five children and Nicola's a mother and we both work full time. We have lots on the go but we always make time to learn. So what advice would you have for those people out there that say, well, I don't know where you guys get the time to do that. What are your advice for those people?
Tash:I'm a mum too. If there's anything that's going to make you learn anything, it's parenthood. Okay, so first piece is the only time you don't have is the time you don't make. That's the one line I throw at anyone who tells me they don't have time. Anything that you do, unless it's given a timeframe, we'll expand to whatever time it's given. So like when you open your phone and 30 minutes later you're like what have I been doing? Where have I been? That's time that, unconsciously, was just absorbed by something else.
Tash:So when people say I just don't have time, I would say okay, well, what do you value? I did a podcast episode with someone I interviewed and she shared a really great quote that she heard, which is don't tell me what you value, show me your calendar. And if we actually look at our calendars, if we did a time audit on what we actually spend our time on, we will be horrifically shocked about how much time gets wasted on stuff that is of no value or stuff that gives us nothing in return. And when I'm saying gives us nothing, I'm not saying about like, oh, sitting in front of Netflix for an hour because sometimes we just need, we need that. I'm not saying that any of those things are bad. It's whether what we're spending that time on is healthy or supportive of what it is we're trying to do or who it is we're trying to be. So my first tip would be question, challenge yourself. Like, how are you currently spending time, if you like, when we?
Tash:When I talk about working on mindset, like it can be done in as little as 30 seconds, I talk about the framework catch, challenge, change. It's a cognitive behavioral therapy technique and you just, even if you just start with catching, like how about we just start catching what's going on in the mind? Let's just take note, like let's just see what's happening, and then we challenge it is what's happening supportive? Is what's happening helpful? Is what's happening getting us to where we want to go? And then we change it. If it's not, what is the slightly healthier thought, what is the slightly healthier action, what is the slightly healthier practice that can be done in 30 seconds? And if you tell me you don't have 30 seconds, I would honestly ask what is going on in your life, like what is actually going on?
Tash:I am a parent of a toddler. I may not be a parent of five children, but I can guarantee you that you, even when you're on the toilet. Sometimes you may not even have that time to yourself, but you can just lock the door and give yourself the 30 seconds. What? And it could be as simple like if we're talking about learning, being curious. It can be as simple as what's one thing I learned today. What's one thing that questioned the way that I do something? That's learning Oscar Tromboli.
Tash:He's a listening coach and his famous line is deeply listening is the willingness of having your mind changed, and that's what curiosity is right. It's the willingness to have our mind changed, even on things that we are very embedded in. It's just the willingness, the willingness to listen, the willingness to see something different, and that can be done in this little list 30 seconds. I think the human condition is we make everything bigger than it is right, we overcomplicate everything. We're like oh, but if I want to learn, I have to put aside two hours in my week to be able to learn. It's like, no, you don't. You could watch your child for two minutes and learn something very profound. You could have a conversation with someone for 30 seconds in the kitchen and learn something very profound. Learning isn't about the magnitude of the topic, or the light bulb moment or anything like that. It can just be as simple as one thing that goes whoa, that challenged me today. So hopefully, yeah, hopefully, it's yes, definitely answers my question.
Deb:I think about learning as experiences. It doesn't necessarily have to be around sitting down and reading a book or taking that time out to watch and listen to a podcast. I just think there's so many ways that we can learn and you've just acknowledged that is that we can learn in different ways, whether it be listening to a podcast or learning something new that you've spoken to a colleague about, or you've gone to a networking event and you've learned one thing that's new. So I look at it as those experiences that we have in our life not only in our careers that we can learn from and then apply them in different aspects of our life.
Tash:Absolutely. I love that. I love the reference to learning through experiences, because that's exactly what it is. And I think what's really key here and this would be another strategy or tool that I would give your listeners is reflect on what is your own learning style like. What's your own learning preference?
Tash:I've actually just reflected on this for myself. I bought a couple of courses. They're self-paced, so it's like watching your own time and I reflected and I was like huh, that access is remote and I haven't finished them. And I realized and I mean I've known this, but I think it just really settled itself in my brain. I'm like I can't learn like that. I can't do self-paced stuff. That's just not it.
Tash:I mean I could if I really forced myself, but that's not how I like to learn. That's not what embeds and makes something stick in my brain. I need to be having interactive conversations, I need to be in groups or in workshops or having some kind of connection to that teacher or guide or coach or whatever. And now that I've accepted that, I'm like OK, now the next time I go to buy a self-paced course because it's a good deal or because other people are really good at them, I need to remind myself. That's not how you best learn, and if you do something because you think you should, you are less likely to do it. So have a reflection what's your learning style? What's actually going to give you the best possible opportunity to learn and to embed those learnings?
Nicola:Something I listened to. I listened, you know, debs and I were talking about this the other day and I actually rang her as I listened to it. I was listening to a podcast from. It was an interview of the president of Shopify and he was talking about how he had done something called skill stacking, where there are just people in the world that you know you could.
Nicola:Debs and I are both in the same career, we both do the same job, we both have to do the same kind of stuff at work, but we've positioned ourselves in a very unique environment because we have skill stacked. We have looked at not just what the vertical is for, you know, health and safety and psychological safety. We've kind of branched out and gone safety adjacent. So we've done things like human centered design, you know that design thinking process, innovation, all of these things, that kind of tie in or multidisciplinary approaches to a topic, and then like stack these skills.
Nicola:And I think when we look at, when we look at leadership holistically, it's so important to remember that those really strong leaders have really started looking outside of the box. They've essentially created a circle and they're looking outside the circle, not even in the box anymore. I'm curious to know, when you're, when you're working with leaders, what are and it's kind of a two-fold question what are some of the really key and strong personality traits you're seeing and strong engaged leaders, and what are some of the things you're seeing in those that are really struggling with more that management like we're dealing with micromanager management aspect versus stepping into that leadership?
Tash:Great question. I think I'll start with the struggling first, because that tends to always be the easier one to talk to. But when I, yeah, when I'm working with leaders who are finding like, who are feeling challenged or who are struggling, I guess the traits that I'm seeing more often is the self doubt, like that's generally the predominance of what's coming up or, you know, imposter thinking that and what kind of sits underneath. That is a few things. So one is the lack of self value, like self value, like the self recognition of what I bring to the table, what I do really well, what my strengths are, what my zone of genius is and what my, what my achievement has been to get me to this point. You know, as soon as people step into that, that management, people, leadership I don't like to kind of use them interchangeably, but when they kind of step into that people leading space, just like skyrockets, the self doubt just goes to a whole different level because, again, like what I mentioned earlier of, just like this tunnel vision definition of what leadership is is like it only happens when we get here and then we've got all the other stuff of like. But I can't do it until I have all of this stuff. I can't do it. Until this has happened, I can't do it. Blah, blah, blah and just all this other nonsense that then gets us into this you know, perpetual cycle of I don't know enough, I'm not going to do a good enough job, what if I fail? What if you know this, that or the other thing? So that's like that self doubt.
Tash:And then this is also where fixed mindset thinking comes in as well. So, you know, growth mindset is the ability to take feedback, you know, as learning. We believe that practice, you know, leads to excellence. You know, and we're we're willing to fail, we're willing to be terrible to start with, and you know all of those things. And then we've got fixed mindset on the other side, where, if I don't get it right the first time, I'm just going to be like I don't know if I can sit around your podcast, I'm just, you know, and feedback is absolutely damaging. I never want to get it. Or, you know, unless I'm a natural genius, I'm not going to do it. Unless I've got all of the, I'm going to the requirements, I'm not going to go for the role, and so that can also very much, you know, cripple our ability to step up and into that role, then we've got like the other side there, where our personal experience to management and leadership Now this hugely influences who we become as leaders.
Tash:So what we've experienced in the past, if we've had a leader who's been empowering, who's created lots of psychological safety, who we trust, who we respect, who you know really pulled out the potential in us, we're more likely to be that kind of leader Right, we're more likely to exemplify that because we're like, wow, that was so beneficial and helpful to me. I want to be that kind of person. If you've had a leader who is micromanaging, who is, you know, a devaluer, who you know is more pessimistic, who is more focused on negative feedback I wouldn't even say criticism, you know, rather than praise, what tends to happen is we want to be the exact opposite of that. It's like, oh, I had such shit leaders in the past. I don't want to be that, but then we overcompensate for it and we go to the complete other end of the spectrum and, you know, someone who's had a micromanaging leader in the past becomes too laid back, too laissez-faire too, you know, hands off. And so I think these are the key things that that's set underneath whether we're going to have a manager or a leader who's going to thrive or someone who's going to struggle.
Tash:The third element of that is the external factor of is their support in place? Is their development and support in place to actually help someone step up? And is that step up actually something they want to do, not something that they're doing because they've reached the end of their technical, you know, rung on the ladder, and so people, leadership is the next thing. So what I would say underneath all of that is the mindset. Like, fundamentally, foundationally, what's the mindset, what's the stories, what's the beliefs and what's the perspectives and the assumptions that I'm holding about this next step? So someone who has a growth mindset, someone who's had a more positive past experience, is likely going to be someone who's going to thrive easier or thrive more, more more likely to thrive when they take that next step. Whether they've got the support in place or not, their mindset will probably carry them enough.
Tash:But then we've got, you know, the people that are more likely to struggle. It's the mindset of past experience, the baggage that they're holding to. Either I don't want to be that or that's all I've ever known. So that's just who I'm going to be, and the lack of support and also the lack of self belief, the lack of self value, the lack of recognition of what they have the ability to do, regardless of the past stuff, regardless of what's happening around them. So that's what I would see is is probably the key differences.
Tash:Now, environment absolutely plays a part, right like our one up manager. The environment that we're in, the organizational culture, the toxicity, the safety of it all of those things play huge parts in where the leaders are successful or not. However, I would say, the ability to be resilient, no matter the environment, is mindset, and mindset, I would also say, is self identity, the decision of who I am, you know, the decision of who I am, who I want to be, how I want to be navigating the situations I'm in, whether I do that from a place of courage or victim mentality, or rescuer, if we want to kind of get into the drama triangle type of things you know but Mindset fundamentally sits underneath it. How am I interacting, responding to and seeing the world around me?
Deb:It's a very long-winded answer there, but it is but it kind of gives us a perspective of the difference between the types of leaders and managers that are out there. This is a question that's leading on to. That is around recruitment right so often and you spoke a little bit about that in your answer around, you know, you have the technical skills, you get to a certain level and then you automatically go into that leadership role. That does not necessarily mean that you're going to be a good leader. Technical people and they're really good at their job does not mean that they have the aspects to become a great leader. It's all around the mindset.
Deb:Now, if we go back, if we take a step back to the recruitment process, often that's what will happen is that we will put these technical people in the space and they're not equipped as leaders with growth mindsets and being able to have empathy and being vulnerable, being able to take feedback, and that specifically happens in safety A lot of the time. We have technical people out there in a male-dominated world already who are trying to transition into that leadership role, becoming a senior person within the business. If we go back to that recruitment piece, what are some of the aspects that you would say if there was a position out there. Someone was recruiting for a leader. What should they be looking for? What types of questions should they be asking from our talent and acquisition people, rather than just focusing on those technical skills?
Tash:I would say I think we need to dive a bit more into the mindset aspect. I think people shy away from this because they think they need to be a psychologist. It's like no, let's just get a better understanding of what you believe and what you value and what you see and what influences the way that you show up and do things. As a recruiter, if you are looking at bringing someone into a specific type of role, like a leadership role, I would say that the key things to focus on is perspective and mindset. Let's just talk about perspective. That kind of sits within mindset. So, perspective If you think about what this role needs, if you think about what this team needs that you are recruiting for, what perspective would you want this leader to have? Or have the ability to sit with the ability to consider, In some cases, subject matter experts or technical experts will have exceptional perspectives the ability to be very critic.
Tash:What's the word creative in analyzing lots of different things and lots of different views? It's their ability to go. Okay. Now, I need to do this in terms of a person. They're not doing this in terms of a problem in a technical process. It's like I'm actually dealing with this of a person who has a different perspective to me. How do I hold space for that?
Tash:So, asking questions around tell me about three different perspectives you hold about something, or talk me through three different perspectives you've had to navigate in the last three months. What did they entail? How were they challenging? Did that make you change something about what you believe or what you think? How did you handle that dissonance between different perspectives? And then I would also ask questions around how often have they had their mind changed? How often have they had their mind changed in things that they thought they were very set on?
Tash:People who lean more towards fixed mindset thinking will always have a bit more of a challenging time describing that or talking to that. It doesn't mean anything bad and this is something I want to say Fixing growth mindset. Neither one is good or bad, because fixed mindset thinking can also be extremely helpful. There are certain instances where fixed thinking, fixed traits, can also be very beneficial to us, and they tend to be that way in instances where the brain thinks we need protection. So that's where that fixed mindset thinking comes up. What we do want to look at is where can growth mindset be the most helpful and most supportive mindset that we lean into, and this is what we want to gauge with people, especially if they don't have people leadership experience already or if they have always been in a very technically focused role. When I say technically focused role, I would probably lean towards very process, very data, very functionally orientated thinking roles where the parameters are always quite set. The parameters are always quite clear. The criteria for which I'm working in is very clear.
Tash:As soon as you start navigating with people, all of that goes out the window. You're now stepping into a position where you have five people in front of you. They're all on the same team, they all work for the same organization and you're dealing with five different people's life experience. And that's now how they show up at work. As much as people think, oh, I'm a different person at work, I leave my life at the door. No, you don't. You just don't. Don't try and pretend it's not possible unless you have, like some sociopathic ability to compartmentalize, Like you just can't. It seeps, it leaks into both.
Tash:And so I would say perspective like focus on understanding your candidates. Perspectives like where are their perspectives being challenged? Where are they willing to consider? Perspectives, you know what are they doing to increase their range of perspectives, that they interact with, that they play with. You know, like that's what I would say.
Tash:And then also like their ability to hold multiple truths at once. I would say that that's the other thing. When you step into leadership or just actually this is relevant in life your truth is not the same as someone else's truth. Truth is subjective, because our story makes everything mean something different. We could have you and I could be in the same situation and have two completely different experiences. Both of those things are true because it's subjective to our experience.
Tash:And so when you step into leadership, you have to be able to hold multiple truths at the same time. And one, not make it mean something about you, and two, not make it mean something about them. And three, be able to hold space and create safety for the vulnerability to unfolds, that you can uncover what needs to be talked about and move forward. And I would say that that's probably the biggest thing that's missing. People are thrown into management roles like here. You know we'll give you some HR 101 training helpful but not helpful in how you actually hold space for people. Yes, it's good to know the HR legalities, but people are not black and white. That's also one thing I struggled with in the HR space of like disciplinary processes. Everything's so black and white and you try and like take the humanity out of it because you think it makes it easier, but that just makes it a thousand times worse.
Deb:And I think it's important to agree more because it doesn't hold the perspectives right, Exactly exactly, and that's for safety.
Deb:for many years it's been, you know, and Nikola and I've both been in that space where it's compliance, compliance, compliance, but really bringing in that human aspect around storytelling and understanding people's truths, understanding their perspective on things and making that information which is like a huge gold nugget and extracting.
Deb:You know, this is what our people are really thinking and feeling and this is how we should work with them to create policies or procedures. I mean, I cringe at the amount of policies and procedures I see 20 pages, 30 pages. Have we ever sat back and thought do people really read that? Does it make sense? Do they understand it? And I think, as health and safety professionals, sometimes we don't tend to take the time to do that. For me, I think that is part of the most important part of my job is to go out and talk to people to understand work as imagined, which is our policies and procedures and everything we write down, to actually how work is done on the ground, and really understand those themes that are coming through. By doing that, I feel that we are taking the opportunity to let our people be heard.
Tash:Absolutely, and you know how often are things being decided on, created, implemented that have no reflection of what's actually happening or that is actually needed, because we haven't asked, because we're sitting up here assuming what's needed. And one of the other things as well that I would say, like with leadership, is, you know, when you're dealing with people, you are no way dealing with something that you can ever know everything about. Every policy, every document you write, you cannot ever know every nuance that goes into how that thing can be applied or interpreted or be perceived. And often we're writing policies and documents for the 2%, not for the 98%, or just to be compliance focused right.
Deb:The law says that we have to have a policy or procedure, but I think people must construe that because if I think about health and safety law, nowhere in the law does it tell you how to write it. It says, yes, you do need to have guidelines around that, but who says that you can't write those with other people or have their input? Why does it have to just be my input? And I think that goes back to that. Growth mindset is around listening with empathy, understanding what people are saying, doing, thinking and feeling, rather than me just assuming. This is what the rule needs to be right.
Tash:Well, having the willingness to have your mind changed, right Just because? You know, something doesn't mean that it's the only way to know something.
Deb:No, no yeah.
Nicola:I think one of the other things and I'm just like making notes as we go in, I laugh always because I've got you on my double screens. I always so silly but I'm curious to know, especially women in leadership. We see so many women talking about imposter syndrome and how much of a struggle it is to be a woman in leadership. But the more Deb's and I have been talking recently and I'm maybe going to get my lady card revoked at this point but we have got such a powerful platform as women in leadership to develop and cultivate that empathy and really focus in on that people centric approach and lead by example, by bringing our whole self to work and being vulnerable and making safe, psychologically safe environments for people. So I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts on kind of that woman in leadership like thinking and that narrative around imposter syndrome.
Tash:Look, I think we definitely have a system that makes it harder, makes it more challenging. I think we've got a long way to go in the system being equals the right word. I don't know if equals the right word, but I'm just going to use equal for now. I don't know if it's the right word. I think we've got a long way to go in making that equal right between men and women and that power dynamic. However, there is also the personal power that needs to really, really step in there. I think.
Tash:I personally believe that often a lot of the imposter thinking comes from that inability to truly see our own value, to truly see what we bring to the table and how that in and of itself, is powerful enough. I think that's one of the biggest gaps. It's one of the biggest gaps. Many women are constantly waiting for that to be validated externally, to always be validated back to them. I'm powerful enough, I've got enough power, I can do it, I can take that step and, yes, those opportunities need to be created also in order for us to do that. And we can also powerfully create them ourselves. But firstly, that has to come from the ability to see our own personal value, and one of the ways that you do that is self praise. Many women are probably going to be like but I'm not supposed to do that. Oh, that makes me feel it that's arrogant, that's big headed, that's bullshit. My response to all that is it's bullshit. If you do not praise yourself, you cannot expect it to come from anyone else. The power dynamic we create by only waiting for it to come externally does not work in our favor. It does not help us get to where we want to go. We need to self praise, and when I say self praise, I mean just very factually assess the good and great work that you do. That's not pumping yourself up or blowing your own tune or giving yourself a big head. That's just factually looking at what you actually do and the fact that you show up and you do it.
Tash:If you've been following me, if anyone knows who I am, you'll know that I've got a winch jar. You can hear it. You can hear it there in the microphone. Every week on a Friday I look back at the wins from my week and this is, you know, like I don't know a proposal that got signed, or you know a nice piece of feedback from a client or a lovely moment with my son, or a challenging moment that I worked through without losing my mind, or you know just anything, any win that I've experienced, and it's in a clear jar that sits on my desk so that at any moment I have that imposter thinking, I've got that self doubt, I can look at that jar and be like, well, I did all those things so I can do this thing. You know, this is what self-brace does, is it gives the brain evidence that we can do things.
Tash:Our brain has an annoying thing called recency bias. We are very focused on the most recent past. We don't the brain doesn't give priority to anything that's you know, three, four, five months in the past. You know, everyone knows that when you go into a performance review meeting, you can't remember anything past. Like last month, you're like I've done nothing great, you know. And then your manager if they're actually a really good manager be like, oh, these are all the amazing things that you delivered this year. And you're like, oh, don't remember any of those things, just remember all of the things I didn't do last week.
Nicola:That's really funny. My first one-on-one with my manager. She had printed out like a list of these lovely things I had done. I thought I was going to cry because I was like, oh my God, you noticed who are you?
Tash:Yeah, one you noticed, and two I probably, like I don't even remember those things.
Nicola:I was like, oh my God, do you think that was cool? That was just me and you.
Tash:That's like that is that's imposter. Thinking right there, right, we devalue everything, either because it comes naturally or it becomes easily. Or it's like, oh, but everyone can do that. It's like if everyone could do that, this wouldn't be a problem. Like, let's just be honest about it. You know people who tell me like I'm like you're really good at being on time. It's like, yeah, but everyone's really good at being on time. I'm like, no, they're not. Otherwise, why are we still getting friggin post something done about why it's important to be on time? Because people aren't on time and so yeah.
Tash:So coming back to that self praise thing, it's we have like the more in time we can be with recognizing those wins, with recognizing value that we've added or things that we've delivered or results that we've created or achieved, the more evidence that gives our brain that we have the skill set, the experience, the value to be where we are, to validate where we are or to be able to take that next step. When we don't do it, we're relying on someone else doing it and everyone is in their own world trying to get through their own day. You know, like I would love if every manager was like that. I would love if every manager was like yours, nicola, that took the time before, one on one, to be like. What are all the great things I noticed about Nicola this week? Like all the things you know the last month? Like I would love that. I would love for that to be the utopia and what everyone experienced. But it's not, because we're humans and we're trying to get through another day of overwhelm and busyness and children and capitalism and patriarchy and you know hierarchy and all of the things, and so we need to step into that power and be like you know what.
Tash:I can also do it for myself. That's the number one thing I tell every one of my clients that work with me. It's like you start a Winsjar and we use Slack in my coaching series. Like we have a Slack, we have a channel that says wins and celebrations, and that's what we do to create the habit of recognizing and when I talk about wins, I mean the smallest things.
Tash:This is also the other thing that as females, or as women, that we do is we only recognize the big things. We only recognize the monumental moments like get project finishing or getting the pay rise, or getting the promotion, or your kid getting first, or your kid getting an A, or, you know you reaching 10 years of marriage, whatever, like, whatever the thing is like, we only look at those significant things and we don't recognize that it was all of those mundane, small, tiny little moments that created that amazing outcome. You know that that project that you just finished delivering, what are all of the tiny little micro moments and the micro actions that you did in order for that project to come to fruition? All of those things need to be recognized. All of those things need to be put into the Winsjar, because you showed up and did all of those things. And so, as women, we need to learn to self praise. We need that to be the normal thing that we do, to give ourselves validation that we are exceptional, that we are good at what we do.
Tash:And, yes, it is amazing to hear from other people. We're human beings. It, you know, it, boosts us up when someone goes hey, you did such an amazing job on that project. It was really great to see you work. It was really great to see you that deliver. Yeah, heart explosion. Love that more, please Like.
Tash:My love language is words of affirmation come at me. That's amazing, and I still practice doing it for myself and I don't. You know, there are days where I don't want to do it. There are days where I look at that jar and I still struggle to believe. But every time I look at it it validates it more and more.
Tash:I did those things, I can do this thing, and that's the other thing with imposter thinking. The mindset shift I have with it is if you have imposter thinking coming out for you, I don't call it imposter syndrome anymore. If you have imposter thinking coming out for you, it means that you are at an edge. That is all it means. That's all it means. It means that you are about to do something you haven't done before. It means that you're about to stretch your skill set. It means that you are about to take a leap and you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know what the outcome is going to be. That's all it is. It's the story we tell. That makes it mean something more than it is.
Tash:If we can look at that moment of imposter thinking or self-doubt and we can go, this means I'm about to do something. I hit send on an email today and I didn't want to do it and I procrastinated for two hours and I looked at Instagram and I went on to LinkedIn again and I like played with the font over here and I was just like, oh, maybe today's not the day, maybe today's just the day I won't send the email. And I looked at that jar and I was like you're on an edge. You don't know how it's going to go, but you're not going to know how it's going to go until you do it. And that's what self praise also allows us to do, because it makes deposits into our confidence bank account that we can then use for future moments. We can make a withdrawal from that bank account and be like well, I did it then, so I can do this now.
Nicola:I think as well. This morning I was listening to an audiobook and it was talking through how it was actually a totally benign topic. It was interesting but it was really benign. But one of the things that stood out to me in the chapter was he said to kind of if you're a natural goal setter and I love setting goals, I love trying to get through all my goals, I love these big, lofty things that I'm achieving, but sometimes I kind of lose momentum.
Nicola:And one of the steps around this was to kind of print out your big, lofty goal, have the little basic, like the little teeny tiny milestones that you're working towards actually this is just the basic ones and then read it at the start of your day, at the end of your day, and also he spoke about having this jar and if you can knock off one of your little teeny tiny milestones, it could be. I walked 10 minutes today and you're aiming to do 10,000 steps, but you walked 10 minutes. You put it in your little jar and then you are starting to see like visual proof that you are kind of lifting up your game on your goals. And I was like that's actually a really good idea because I check in on my goals but I never see any physical proof of them actually progressing, because I'm doing them right and I never think about them again once I've done them. And I love that idea. I think it's a great idea and seeing your little jar, I think I need to start.
Deb:I know, I just thought that myself.
Tash:I was like yeah, Mine's just an old pickle jar, just an old pickle jar that I put in the dishwasher, cleaned out, and that's exactly it.
Tash:Right, like, again, the brain discounts small progress, you know. And we also struggle to discount compounding effect, right, like James Cleo and Atomic Habits. He talks about the compounding effect, right Like the 1% better every day. You know, people get so fixated on the end product that they don't just show up for the things that actually get there. And yeah, and it's that momentum, it's.
Tash:You know, momentum comes from consistency, right, momentum comes from showing up and consistency, you know, it doesn't mean that you are perfect every day. It means that you could just you show up, right, and or, if you fall off the wagon a power up that I received around perfectionism it's like, if you fall off the wagon, just pretend that you didn't keep going and I love that, that's like my new like, that's like my new thing. It's like, if I miss a day, I'm like I just pretend I didn't miss a day and I just keep going. I just do it again tomorrow and I'm like I love that. I don't make it mean anything. It doesn't mean anything and I just keep going tomorrow.
Tash:But again, like seeing, seeing the visual and seeing that physically, like you see the jar filling up. You know, and I use the different colored post-it notes to kind of again, it's very attractive to the eye, like the different colors, and what that also means is it helps to separate feelings from facts. This is one of the things with imposter thinking is we get very entangled with feelings when very rarely is it factually true, very rarely is it factually accurate. So to be able to step back and you know it's like I can't do this, I can't do this. I've never done anything like this. I was like factually is that true though? No, because you've done this and you've done this and you've done this. Yes, it's not the same thing, but you've done other big things, you know. So, again, having something visually that can pull you out of that kind of rumination can also just help to separate, like, the facts and the feelings from each other so that we don't kind of spiral Wow.
Deb:This has been a really, really interesting conversation and you've got so many good points and I'm conscious of time and I could go on for days and days, so sorry, so could we. So I think I'm going to sum up. Some of the things that I took away from this conversation is creating learning experiences. Think about what works for you, be curious, don't be afraid to challenge, see your value, and self praise are really important to do that and get a wins jar.
Tash:And please share with me on LinkedIn. Yeah, that one's month I post my wins.
Deb:Jar on there and I always get some people be like.
Deb:I just started mine and I'm like, yes, this is going to be like the movement and also love your concept around imposter thinking rather than the syndrome and just taking it as this is your stretch. Right, this is your stretch. Take it as an opportunity to learn from. And then I love the fact I'm in banking myself. So I love the fact that you said deposits into our bank accounts. So I love that concept. And then strive for 1% every day, 1% better every day. I think those are my key takeouts from today's conversation. So thank you so much. It's been awesome.
Tash:I love that, and just one thing I'd add is learning can happen as little as three to five minutes. It can be in tiny tiny moments.
Nicola:I've recently just started a newsletter because I get obsessed about a topic and I'm like, why aren't you telling other people how obsessed I am about topics? Right, Because I get so curious. And then I deep dive into it and then I'm like, why am I not sharing this? So that's what I started last week was I was like, yeah, let's share that information so you can, you can learn in 10 minutes or less. So we have we have a bit of a silly tradition on this podcast. At the minute it's kind of like a verbal version of charades, because obviously people can't see what you're doing, so you have to describe it as best as you can. But what we are asking you to describe to us is a couple of things that we may find in your handbag or backpack or pouch or satchel, messenger bag whatever you're wearing and we will guess what it is that you want to scrub it.
Tash:Okay. Oh it's interesting. It has a gosh. Okay, how would I describe this? It is rectangular and it's soft. One side is waterproof and you can roll it up into a nice little cylinder Is that what you call that and you use it when you're out and about with your toddler and you don't want them to come into contact with anything unhygienic when you might be changing their attire.
Tash:And now, if you're changing that, yes, I do not currently use a handbag because when I leave the house, I'm usually in tow with my toddler, so I carry my nappy bag.
Nicola:Yes, All right. What else have you got in this miracle nappy bag other than crumbs and like swished banana at the bottom?
Tash:Oh no, it's very clean, so no food goes in there. I don't even know how to describe it without really saying what it is. This is really hard. The learning experience for you. This is very challenging. It's not very hard, very challenging. You fold them slightly in half, or you fold them in half and you put them. You wear like little people wear them, and they can come in all sorts of different patterns, with patterns on the outside, and you stuff them with two bamboo inserts Fluff nappies.
Tash:Yes, Sorry I do not have anything else interesting up of them.
Deb:Oh no, no, that's quite interesting.
Nicola:I was on maternity leave because I don't like sitting idle. Apparently, when I was on maternity leave, I started a cloth nappy business.
Tash:Did you Wow?
Nicola:So I had a lot of cloth nappies and a lot of them were those really nice ones that were made by people or myself. Yeah, with the nice embroidery on the back. Oh, that's so cute.
Tash:I love our cloth nappies, love them. Oh so good. Oh, that was fun. Thank you, to really think about how to describe something.
Nicola:Right, it's tricky. This is what we created this whole, because we were like what can we do? That's a little bit different, gets you thinking, shifts the thinking a little bit. So, yeah, it's been so great having you, though Thank you. It's so great hearing your insights around leadership and mindset and what people can do to kind of get themselves into that space as well, and I challenge everybody that's listened to start a wins jar.
Tash:And please share it with me. Please share it with me once you have one.
Nicola:Where can we find you? Where can people go to hunt you down?
Tash:Yes, so I will send you the links to pop in the show notes, but my website is tashpetersacom, so just wwwtashpetersacom. I'm most active on LinkedIn, so you can just search tashpetersa on LinkedIn. And I am there A little bit on Instagram, mostly for the stories, because I really like sharing on Instagram stories. I wish LinkedIn had them and I'm just tashpetersa on there as well. So yeah, that's me.
Deb:Awesome.
Tash:And thank you so much. This was such a great conversation.
