SafeTEA Podcast with Nicola and Deborah

S1E09: Navigating Gender Bias: Insights from Elaine Toal

• Nicola and Deb • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Elaine Toal’s journey from aspiring doctor to health and safety leader is nothing short of awe-inspiring. Faced with gender biases that initially led her to nursing, Elaine’s perseverance and passion ultimately found her thriving in the field of health and safety in New Zealand. She opens up about the evolving awareness of health and safety, balancing technical expertise with people skills, and her eye-opening experiences in male-dominated industries like construction and engineering. Elaine's authentic insights will leave you pondering the true essence of leadership and the power of empathy and authenticity in professional growth.

Diving deep into the unique challenges women face in construction and engineering, Elaine shares poignant anecdotes of overcoming gender-based discrimination. Hear how staying true to herself and building a robust support network, such as the Global Women program, were crucial to her success. The episode sheds light on the cultural shift from a rigid compliance mindset to one that values collective care and mutual respect, making Elaine’s experiences and advice particularly compelling for those navigating similar industries.

From managing airport infrastructure projects to tackling the nuances of generational differences in the workplace, Elaine’s wisdom covers it all. Discover how small gestures of appreciation can create a supportive atmosphere and why blending core skills with human-centered design is key to effective leadership. As Elaine discusses the future of health and safety, the importance of continuous learning, and the humanization of risk, her journey provides invaluable lessons for aspiring leaders and seasoned professionals alike.

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Nicola:

Well, welcome to a new episode. Today we are with Elaine Toll, who is going to introduce herself in a second, but I think both Debs and I get to fangirl over Elaine a ton of times a day because she is doing the most amazing things in health and safety and really leading the charge with empathetic leadership, vulnerable leadership, being a really authentic leader, I think as well. And spoiler alert, I have a very, very lovely story to share about her a little bit later that I don't think she knows I have up my sleeve. Elaine, over to you. Tell us a little bit about you, where you work, who you are, what you do, where you're, you're from sure it's going to be a tough.

Elaine:

I was thinking when you were doing that intro I was like who is this lady so? So I'm excited to hear too hey, um, look, just uh, cure to you both. Um, I just want to acknowledge this amazing um setup that you've got and I have been following you guys, as you know, but also listening to some of your podcasts. I really enjoyed Natalie Martinick and her session. It was really good and actually there's quite a lot in there that I felt I could really relate to in her journey. I was thinking of her comments around publish or perish and the whole competition that's that's in that industry and certainly something I could relate to in the early part of my journey because actually I started my life and career as a scientist. So I was going to take you right back to school if I could although that would be the 1800s when I was going to school, it feels like. But I was thinking about this and thinking about the journey and just really reflecting on the fact that when I was in school I actually really wanted to be a doctor and at the time it was a long time ago in school and at the time when we were going to see our career guidance counsellors and sessions, my career guidance counsellor heard that I wanted to be a doctor and then put me in the session where I could become a nurse, and so they had nursing managers come in and talk to us about a career in nursing, which I think is amazing. But it wasn't quite what I wanted to do and it really felt like my career counsellor was telling me that you know, this was, this was the space that women go to and will save these spaces for, for the doctors, for the boys, and I didn't really process it at the time, I just kind of went with it, but it has been something that's that's been on my mind because as I moved through into uni, I was the first person in my family to go to university, and so my parents were super proud of me, and my extended family too, and it felt really good because it felt like I was role modelling for the rest of my family and also showing that the university isn't isn't as big a reach as it might have been before. So and so, so, yeah, so went and I studied some science, absolutely loved it, loved my time in there, but my journey into health and safety started actually in new zealand, um, so I was doing some, I was doing my research, um and um was that was coming to an end and I knew that I wanted to do a little bit of travel with it. And well, fun fact actually about research, we did have health and safety legislation in Ireland but it's nowhere near what it was like in New Zealand and in fact I'd never heard of a health and safety person professional health and safety officer Not really even knew, didn't even really know.

Elaine:

We had a health and safety authority and I worked in a lab and when I think about what we used to do in that lab and where I work now, it's definitely been a journey. I won't say that we stood on drums of chemicals to reach the ones on the top shelf or worked by ourselves in fields and things like that, but it was super fun times. But my first introduction to health and safety was when I came to New Zealand and I worked for Yates um seeds and fertilizers, yeah, and they were an awesome organization. But an amazing lady in that organization was their health and safety person. That was the first time I'd met someone and so I was working with her on a, on a piece of of on a project, and what I thought was amazing was there's a lot of technical knowledge and skill and learning in that role, but also it was very much a people role and I loved the balance of those two because science is really cool and it is a people function. But this was very social and I felt like it really just kind of called out to me that this was going to be my next step. So finished a bit of travel, moved around Australia a little bit and then went home and when I went back to Dublin it was the year 2000 and that was the first time they'd introduced health and safety courses. So I did my qualifications in safety and haven't looked back from there.

Elaine:

I've had some amazing experiences, worked in some really great places, but what sung out to me from Natalie Martinick's talk was, yeah, that competitiveness that I really found when I was working in construction. So I've lots of good stories about construction in Ireland during that time because it was booming and lots of fun stories, lots of good hearted stories. I had some experiences on site that made me think about making sure that people wouldn't go through that. I was actually assaulted on site. People were just quite aggressive in their approach, and the fact that there was a lot of money at stake made things raise the bar a little bit, you know. So, yeah, so I had some not so great experiences, but I also had some wonderful experiences.

Elaine:

I worked on it in a really rough area of Dublin and they were doing a large regeneration project and we were one of the sites in that regeneration project and the site manager was having real difficulty getting engagement from the residents who lived around the site and so for the first few months of that site trying to be established, the site fencing or hoarding was burnt down most nights or knocked over and there was lots of different things that were were were, um, just not great, and so it made it very difficult and challenging for him and um, and so he and I decided that we couldn't, this couldn't continue, and so we reached out to the, the residents, and we just had a chat and we brought kind of morning tea, had a chat about what was going on, what they were kind of concerned about, what would it take for us to be able to maintain our hoarding for more than 24 hours, and got actually a really great response, and so from that time there were no more issues. If they had issues, they would come and see the site manager and just talk that through issues. They would come and see the site manager and just talk that through, and even at the time I didn't understand that that was, you know, good engagement and consultation. I just thought that was the way things were done and I feel like that's been the way I've been my whole career.

Elaine:

I don't have necessarily the words to say I'm an authentic leader, or you know the words to say I'm an authentic leader, or I'm what. You know the word lovely words you used to describe. I just that's just who I am and I've never really thought about it. And I know a lot of people like that, probably yourselves included, but a lot of really great people. Um, I just naturally like that and people just genuinely care about other people. It's the most basic human kind of thing. So, but don't necessarily have the words to describe what I have found in later in my career is that it is important to have those words so that you can be aware of yourself, you can be aware of how you interact and aware of those positive things about you and the strengths that you have so that you can bring that to your work and be really confident, and so, yeah, so that's um that when I was listening to Natalie Martinick, that kind of all of those things came back.

Deborah:

That's a great introduction. Thanks, elaine. Um, I think. Um, well, if I think about my career, I think, nicola Nicholas, it's very similar. We worked in Africa and a very male-dominated environment oil and gas, logistics, transports, and then, when I came to New Zealand, in steel, and it's a very male-dominated environment, although it is changing and I'm very happy to say that it is changing specifically in steel. What are some advices that you would give to women in safety going on to these sites? You said you had quite some difficult times in construction. A lot more women are getting into trades and construction. What's some of the I would say maybe the top three things you would advise you would give to a woman stepping into that role and having to go out into the sights into predominantly male dominated place?

Elaine:

yeah, it's, it's a really great question. Um, I remember when I finished my quals and I was going for a job um in construction actually and um and basically was rejected from the job because they said I was too small, my voice was was too high pitched and I wouldn't be taken seriously on the site. Now that is quite a long time ago, but but it's. I guess what stuck with me was that I wasn't like as offended as I should have been by that guess. What stuck with me was that I wasn't like as offended as I should have been by that. I went back and I told my supervisor at university and he was quite shocked and he said you know, just don't worry about it, you'll get another one, but actually it's not really good enough and it is a long time ago, but not that long.

Elaine:

So what I would say to women on site and you're right, it's awesome to see more of that, not just in engineering and architect roles, but actually on site, it's really pleasing to see that is that it's okay, and it's actually what I'd say to everybody is that it's okay to be you. So just go on, don't feel that you have to be more like a man, and that's what I felt when I first started. I thought I had to be kind of louder than I normally are, be really like kind of almost aggressively assertive in meetings, know more than everybody else and just make a point at the start of the meeting so that I would be taken seriously. But you don't. You can just be yourself and bring what you've got and actually use some of the things. I'm not sure if this is, if this is entirely right, but what I found is it's an advantage being a woman on site sometimes and you need to use that, to use that, and sometimes it's either softening down situations, providing a different perspective, or just showing that you know as much as the men. But it could be used in a different way.

Elaine:

There's much more focus now on collaboration and teamwork on sites and I think that's a natural advantage for a lot of younger people not just women coming onto sites, but kids coming out of school seem to be better able to work as teams or more willing to work in a team environment and get stuff done and be less concerned with the fact that they're working with women or men.

Elaine:

It's just that they're working as part of a team and I definitely see that on the sites here. So yeah, so I'm at Auckland Airport and we've got a huge piece of infrastructure going on lots of different sites. It is really pleasing to see more female tradies on site, but I'm definitely picking up that vibe that there's more of a focus on teamwork and collaboration to get things done. There's a lot more respect for the role of safety in general. There's a lot more understanding that safety is not just about rules but is about how we show we care for each other, and I think some of that really helps for young women coming into a really what is still male dominated industry I, I'm I'm curious to know, because one of the things uh, geez, it would have been I.

Nicola:

You know, looking at your, your background and kind of the, the training that you've done, it's very I feel like we're twinsies in a lot of ways Awesome, we've had a very similar path. I also did Bachelor of Science, did Environmental Science and like Biochemistry and Human Physiology and then went into, like you know, the environmental aspects of that, so went from environmental into this like weaving in of safety. I guess We've all like weaving in of safety. I guess we've all got a weird path, I guess. But you know, looking at some of the, the roles you've had, I'm like, oh yeah, I work for someone like that. Um, but one of the things I've noticed that you've done and I'm curious just to know more about it, um, because it's been on my bucket list for a wee- while is the global woman stuff.

Nicola:

How was that? Did you find it valuable? Did it give you any insight that maybe you hadn't had before?

Elaine:

The best thing.

Elaine:

So, yes, it's an amazing experience and I felt very fortunate.

Elaine:

I was working at Air New Zealand at that time and I felt very fortunate to be put forward for that, and so I'm really grateful, and part of the reason I was put forward for that is that I had a really supportive senior management team, and so it always helps having someone in your corner right, and I really like that.

Elaine:

What I found amazing about the Global Women is that you're part of a network and you're put in a cohort that works together the whole way through the six-week program and you become like friends and they become your go-to and they're people you haven't met before, but you know you've been through an experience together and you reach out and we're still connected. We're still on a WhatsApp group, and I think that's really helpful because we did share some experiences and come to some understandings about new ways of doing things together, and I thought that was really cool. So probably the best thing about Global Women for me was forming that cohort and just getting to know more people and hearing different experiences and understanding that actually we've all gone through quite a lot of similar things. We may have maybe at different times, but we've gone through similar experiences at different times in our career and it feels like there's strength in knowing that a lot of people went through similar things and that we've come out the other end.

Deborah:

Awesome, awesome. I think it's so important to have those cohorts to learn and grow. I think you've got that growth mindset where you keep growing and you keep wanting to learn and grow. I think, um, you've got that growth mindset where, um you keep growing and you keep wanting to learn more. Um, I'm thinking about um. I've heard and we've heard a lot about future fit leadership and um. If I look at health and safety, from when I first started or when you first started, um, it was very much technical. It was very much around compliance. Um, I still feel that there is that balance between compliance and collaboration. Um, and there's a way to bring in um health and safety into all that human aspect, into the compliance piece. Um, what does future fit leadership look like for health and safety professionals, moving from that transition from just compliance, compliance to really? You've spoken about collaboration and empathetic listening, all of that type of thing what do you think is, if we think about future fit leadership and safety or well-being, what does that look like for you?

Elaine:

It's a really great question. Look, I I just think that the I agree there's been a move from a focus on compliance to a focus on people, and I can only talk to the way that it works for me. But I just I really like people and when I'm in a role, I just like to get to know people. Getting to know people means that they'll that you generate some trust and you generate a relationship, but you also get to know what it is that you can do to support that person in the health and safety kind of role, and for me, future fit leadership in health and safety or anything else, is about creating the environment for people to be successful, and so you can, you help create that environment and people will just um, thrive and that means that they'll be great in terms of their own well-being, well-being overall, and health safety, and but also they'll be successful in what they want to do, and health and safety is just an enabler of all of that. So, yeah, I don't it's probably a very basic answer to your question and but but fundamentally, everything for me comes from that.

Elaine:

It's all about creating the environment, and when I think of the leaders that I've had and I've been really fortunate to have some amazing leaders, like direct managers, and also like amazing people like our current CEO, carrie, and in roles that are so significant. Like Carrie's, she creates that environment for other people just to do their thing and be really successful. So that environment, she also creates that feeling that there's a space for you, you know, he also creates that feeling that there's a space for you, you know. So for me, that's what I've always wanted to do, for my teams as well is just create the environment, because people know what they're doing. Create that environment includes creating, though, a learning environment too, right? So people and a safe environment for people. We all like make mistakes, but we all also fail at things, and there's nothing wrong with that, right, that's just one thing that you've tried and you need to move on for, and that's the sort of environment that that's that I work well in and I think, works well for for most people all right, so I'm I'm gonna.

Nicola:

I was, I was hoping I still had the. Actually I might do, um, I might actually still have it, so I I wanted to share a little story about your leadership style. Oh that I don't think you know that I have, okay you know just a little mini spoiler, spoiler alert.

Nicola:

So I presented to you a project many, many years ago. I said many, many years ago. It feels like a thousand years ago and at the time I was working with a leader that was less than wonderful and everything that I did was always, you know, at the end of, say, a meeting, if I felt the meeting went really well, they would pull you down all these pegs and they would tell you how awful it was or how terrible you had presented, or all of these terrible, terrible things. And it was really a challenge and I feel like it. It took the wind out of my sails multiple times and a couple of days later, sitting at my desk, was a little box from Elaine that said thank you for this presentation. It was wonderful, and inside of it was a little chocolate and it was a little smile box. And I was like wonderful, and inside of it was a little chocolate and it was a little smile box.

Nicola:

And I was like this is the leader one day that I need and that I want to be. I think I was sitting at my desk and I feel like, for you, it was one of those things where it's like, oh, we're just gonna do this, and for me it was so impactful and literally sat on my top of my desk for the longest time, reminding me that, okay, maybe all of this, like you know, stuff that was happening in the background was actually not as relevant as I thought it was, so it it stuck with me and probably got me through that entire year.

Elaine:

Oh, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that but also really glad. And yes, look you're, you're, you're right. I just think some of those things giving good feedback, just acknowledging some great things that people have done it's so important and it's something that's valuable to me, I've just shared. I've had some great leaders and they've done things for me that I guess have been really helpful. They've said thank you, which sounds really basic.

Elaine:

I had a leader so Roger Gray was one of my business leaders at Air New Zealand. He sends to all his staff. He sent a personal handwritten Christmas card every year acknowledging something particular that you had done, but also just wishing you and your family a happy new year handwritten, and at the time he would have had hundreds of people on his team and it went to everyone. I had this amazing leader, veronica White, who one year gave me a pencil with like a little rubber on the top and in her note she was saying happy Christmas and she said just a reminder, you can always rub things out and start over again and it was just so nice.

Elaine:

I still have that pencil. I never used it, but I just thought that it's really nice and, just you know, I think it's the thought behind something like that that makes it so special, and these are very small things, but it's the small things that are meaningful for people, you know. So it's really, really important, and I think when someone does a great job, like you did, nicola, it's important to acknowledge that. So yeah, that.

Deborah:

So um, so yeah, that's awesome, that's really cool, and I guess we all have different types of leaders, um, and again, I think about what. What makes up um a good leader or a successful leader? Um, and I think about um, how we um, we have in the past um, and there's lots of leaders or managers out there that um, you know no disrespect to them, but they haven't learnt the skills around empathetic leadership or being vulnerable. Um and in these this day and age, and we hear a lot about well-being, right, and we hear about um, what I often find in in my area, and you'll probably find it in yours, because we get to um, you know, collaborate with different people and different levels of the organization, and what I do find is particularly hard for some older leaders um, is that there's that transition from being a really technical person and a good manager to moving to having those difficult conversations, right and um, with the regulations and the world as it is, there's more of a pressure on them to be able to have those conversations, but it's not always easy for them.

Deborah:

Um, what are some of the things that you would suggest? Um and and you will? You'll be probably playing in the space around the wellbeing and teaching or coaching our leaders to be able to have these conversations. It's almost like we need to give them a cheat sheet or a script to have the conversations and I see it day in and day out. And what are some of the things that you think we could help to grow those leaders and help them to have those conversations?

Elaine:

Oh, another great question. Look, you're absolutely right, and I mean, some of it is about building capability in that space, but another is about support. It can be quite challenging being a leader, and often I think sometimes it can be a little bit lonely because people think you already know what you're doing and so and they kind of leave you to it, but you can find yourself in a position where you are managing sometimes quite complicated or complex well-being issues for your team or with your team, and so there's I mean there's lots you can do, some training you can do, you can have cheat sheets. I think one of the things that I've been really leaning on over the last while is peer supervision, so you know that concept from health care, so it's almost like peer to peer support for the manager, helping define the boundaries, and, because that's sometimes where, as a leader, you can easily slip, you either move too far away and then are seen as not caring, or you become all encompassing, you know, and you have the person. You're almost moving the person into your home to look after them, and that's sometimes not helpful either. So really making sure that the boundaries are there. What helps with those boundaries, though, is that ability to have someone working with you so that peer supervision, that you can talk to that person and say hey, and that can sometimes be an external well-being support, but there's a lot of trust in that relationship, so it's something that has to be built.

Elaine:

What we've started here at the airport is that we've started offering that. So we started by running through Mental Health Awareness Week. We ran some special taking care of your team during a crisis or during some significant well-being issues, how you as a leader would work through that team and then offered that peer supervision or further coaching as an outcome of that training. And so some of that was taken up. And it's the same in Auckland Council with the amazing Tui Hanna who leads the well-being space there.

Elaine:

Peer supervision and pastoral care and a peer support network are the three things that she has set up and that have been a real game changer in Auckland Council. And it's just as a leader, it's important that you have someone to lean on to and quite often that can be really successful if it's an outside person. You need to build that relationship with. What I found with that is that when we set it up that way, there's less leaders feeling that their only option is EAP to talk it through. And it's not. Eap is amazing, but that's not the right support. So, yeah, so reinforcing the boundaries, what is good for the person, what is good for you as a leader, so you can still continue to support that person or people and still actually keep performance going, but, at the same time, make sure that the person is cared for in the best possible way.

Deborah:

Yeah, and to me it sounds like our roles as health and safety professionals is becoming very much aligned with people teams.

Deborah:

So working quite closely with people teams and understanding the culture of an organisation and understanding how we can support leaders in that space. This is a bit of a tricky one because some people will have more than others. But if I think about, you know, return to work plans and ACC or workman's comp wherever you are in the world and I talk to people about the support that they provide to their leaders, because what I find is that leaders struggle to work very closely with their the injured person and the occupational therapist to work through those gradual return to work plans. I'm finding that more and more that they're expecting the health and safety team to do that. How do you empower leaders to take accountability for helping their people through that gradual return to work plan? Because again, it's going to become more of a focus from ACC in terms of keeping up that connection between the injured person and all of that. So how do you, what advice do you have for leaders out there to help manage their return to work plans, et cetera?

Elaine:

Yeah, another great question, and it's funny. When I moved here, deb and it might be the same for you, but when I moved here, what I found was there was a real misunderstanding that when someone was off injured that as a leader you could not talk to them, because if you talk to them you were admitting something and accepting some sort of liability for their injury. And I found it really hard to work around at the start and I feel like some of that still exists, and so it's almost demystifying what this is all about. You know, the person wants to come back to work when they're healthy, we want them back, and so how do we kind of demystify the process in the middle? And I guess some of this comes from then understanding your own leaders, right? So this is where the relationship bit is so important, because you can understand their perspective and also their experiences.

Elaine:

In doing that, you can identify where this comes from, and sometimes it's just one or two leaders. Sometimes it could be a culture, and that will determine the approach that you take. So if it's a culture, then it's about resetting and just making sure that everything is clear about what this is actually about and how you do it. If it's some leaders in a particular area, then you can target that a little bit more one-on-one um. But it really is almost demystifying the acc process and the fact that, as a leader and as the injured person, you have an active role in this. You don't have to stand back and and wait to hear what the outcome is. You can be part of the discussion and that you are welcome to be um it. Yeah. That again that probably very basic answer, but that's definitely worked for me. It's just that demystifying of this ACC process that seems to sit out here and somebody else looks after. But yeah, yeah, it's not done to you. You can be absolutely a part of it.

Nicola:

I'm curious to know what are some of the really tricky challenges you're facing at the moment in the health and safety space. Well, health, safety and well-being, I guess what are some of the things you're starting to identify.

Elaine:

What are some of the things you're seeing more occurring more in your space and and some of those kind of curly things that you think actually maybe everybody's got the same problem um, yeah, I think for us, our focus, um, is really moving towards the, towards the concept of enterprise risk and um and including health safety, including good risk management, including all the different bits, so that we have a more holistic view of risks across the organization and therefore can take a better approach to, to mitigating those. And and it's always been the way I mean I didn't have the words when I was in the early part of my career either, but I've always liked to know the fuller picture of something before you know. You're quite often asked to assess something, but you need to know, around that story, what's happening so that you can make a better assessment. And I feel like, at an enterprise level, that's a focus for us.

Elaine:

Of course, we are an airport and for the next 10 years we also have a giant infrastructure project going on, so the risks for us are quite complex in that we are entering into the construction space. We also are keeping our amazing airport operational and then making sure that we manage that risk, again holistically or collectively, with our contractors and our operational teams, so that we we minimise the health and safety risks to our people. We minimise the health and safety risks to our people, to our customers and to our contractors, and creating that village concept around health and safety is really important to us, because if everyone is doing it in their own way, then we don't get that collective benefit and we may be blind to some of the risk. So those are the kind of things that I'm thinking about, um, and and definitely working with our contractors and our operations team to to get that high level of visibility and a kind of, as much as possible, a consistent and common approach to how we deal with risk, are the big things that we're focused on right now.

Deborah:

Awesome. In terms of critical risk and enterprise risk, I totally agree with you and that's something that we're doing is bringing health and safety and wellbeing into enterprise risk, to get that more holistic view. But, thinking about myself and Nicola have shared risks, which is um violent behavior or aggressive behavior, and it seems to be getting worse and worse. Um this and and going out and visiting some of our people on the front line, I've I've learned that, um, they don't always know how to de-escalate the situation, um, and it can get very, very trying at times, specifically in the retail sector. Is that something that you guys experience at the airport and what programs are you looking at to de-escalate those kinds of things?

Elaine:

Yeah.

Elaine:

So I think we have some training programs in place on de-escalation training programs in place on de-escalation, but we're at the stage where we're also looking at how we design out as much of the risk as possible.

Elaine:

So how do we look at, how do we do our work, how do we set up our areas so that we mitigate that risk and design out that risk for our people. So we're working through that and I know that you might I think you do know Paul Robertson at Auckland Council. So himself and Sue did a lot of work in that space and quite successfully, I understand, because they got the rates of aggressive incidents down but also created better working conditions and work environments for the teams that they try that with, and so I'm unashamedly trying to copy some of that. But really focus on the work. Design is where we're at. So we do have a couple of training courses, but also there's a great organization called Harrison Chew and they run some really good situational awareness courses and we use those at Auckland Council as well and I found them to be really beneficial and just stuff that isn't necessarily covered in de-escalation.

Elaine:

But is really important for you.

Elaine:

It's almost like how you design yourself in situations so that you can minimize the risk of exposure to that um.

Elaine:

Yeah, and then there's, of course, the retail industry themselves are doing a lot of work in in that space, in in, and that's where we kind of we kind of leverage off that in the airport retail environment. And but, because we're also building um lots of infrastructure, I mean up the road, um, we're building manua bay, an amazing retail space, and and that's some of the thought that's gone into that how do we design those areas to help reduce that risk? And and then, um, and then for airport as well. You know, interesting, when I worked for air new zealand, what, um, what I found was, um, when we moved to kiosk environments, the, the level of that particular risk went up. Um, because there was um, there was no kind of uh desk between you and the customer, and so it's important that we learn and learn how to mitigate that as well as we as we move into those environments more. But that's also something that would be great for us to catch up on.

Deborah:

Yeah, for sure, definitely, yes, now that shop care is um they, the retail industry, and um it'll be great to kind of have those conversations, um about what some of the big players are doing in that space, um. But I think you're right. I think it's in terms of um engineering out some of that can be the future design of the workspace or, you know, mitigating. If I think about my time in banking in South Africa, we had big glass, you know, panels between us and you felt a bit safer. Nowadays there's a fine line because we want to get that balance between relationships building relationships, um, and also keeping our people safe.

Elaine:

Yeah, yeah, that's right, and I mean it's the physical environment and it's also the processes, you know, you know, when processes don't make sense, that in that increases the risk. So, yeah, yeah, simplifying things, uh, is part of it. Yeah.

Nicola:

Yeah, something we've been talking about quite a bit recently is a concept called skill stacking. Ooh, I know it's brand new to us. Bear with, bear with. We love it, we're on board. We didn't realize that we were even, we didn't even realize it had a label to it and we were like, of course we're doing this. So, in summary, what it is it's this guy that was talking about.

Nicola:

It was a podcast we were listening to and it was a guy talking about how let's take health and safety as an example we as health and safety professionals are pretty proficient usually in the technical space of health and safety and pretty proficient usually in the technical space of health and safety, and we all have that as a baseline. But to make a really exceptional leader in health and safety, you notice that there's these odd skills that we seem to stack up which are different from that baseline. So we look at health and safety adjacent. So human-centered design, cool skill to learn, you know that design thinking process, innovation, all of those really interesting skill stacked things that we can kind of add to our I don't know repertoire of awesomeness. You know, you just keep adding on and adding these skills. So skill stacking right, and they say it makes.

Nicola:

I can't remember the statistic, but there was a statistic associated and was like it makes you more productive and more engaged. It makes you all of these awesome things great statistic. Don't know what it was. I'm curious to know what is on your kind of future thinking skill stacking to-do list over the next year. What is, what are your big hitters for this year?

Elaine:

oh, um. Well, that's really cool, and now I've got skill stacking as a new word for the day, so I'm excited about that. Hey look, mine is a little bit more basic. I'm pretty new into my role this is my sixth month, I think and I can see that I am driving the airside safety team nuts by not understanding even basic things like north and south directions on the airside, but also the rules of being on airside. Oh yes, so things I'm learning are the 24 hour clock 1400 is not the same as 4 pm, so I'm learning that and then where all the directions are. So I'm trying my best not to not to annoy them but also to understand what they need. More means I need to understand some of the skills that they have airside, and so I'm doing some training in understanding that, which is pretty basic. I think I all break basic in terms of the question that you asked, but I think you're always growing as a leader and always just trying to understand everything to do with people. Leadership is what I will continue to stack on, because I'll have my skills that I need to understand for my job, but mostly it's constantly evolving that kind of people leadership space and and really understanding what I need to do.

Elaine:

Can I share?

Elaine:

I was.

Elaine:

I was lucky enough to go to a risk conference on Monday this week where there was a whole different suite of risk people there, so there was safety, but there was mostly insurance and financial people there from all different parts of the world and country and it was really cool.

Elaine:

There was a huge focus on AI and cybersecurity and I learned heaps and probably probably the smallest but because I've got two 15 year old boys, the biggest thing that I took away was that there was discussion around the risk of recruiting and retaining people in workforces, which is a global risk, and part of the part of the presenter, part of what the presenter was talking about was the ability to recruit and retain Gen Zers and kind of talked a little bit about what that would look like in a workplace. But then he also put up on a slide all the emojis and I love using emojis and memes which shows my age, I suppose, but I love a good meme and he put up all these emojis and shared what what they mean to a gen z-er and I was like, oh no is it not what we were expecting?

Elaine:

there's some that you definitely would know, but there was also. You know, doing a thumbs up can be seen as passive, aggressive or doing a thumbs up is a hundred percent like a thumbs up is like you're out, whatever.

Deborah:

Yeah, it's like we don't care anymore, and I probably not every day, my kids are like oh, sorry, yeah, no, my kids are so young and they just, oh, my goodness, the words and the memes and the emojis that they come up with. I'm like learning every single day.

Elaine:

So that was, that was a shocker for the room Right, and then, um, and then I won't tell you what it means, but I will share.

Nicola:

Don't share a cake or a cupcake emoji with anybody who's a Gen Z-er, because you won't know what you're, what you're saying, and and cake emoji with anybody who's a gen z-er, because you won't know what you, what you're saying, and and I was thinking, oh no, every time it's someone's birthday, I send them a cake emoji and candles and a balloon.

Elaine:

Oh no, what is it? It means I like you in a sensual way oh my goodness, okay like, oh my god who is quickly scanning, who?

Nicola:

I've recently sent that to oh wow, okay, you just sent that like two days ago and I took a photo of the slide that is really interesting.

Deborah:

I'd be. If you can share that slide. I'll send you the slide.

Elaine:

Yeah, we can add it to the the podcast, because that will be quite interesting but it's really cool, you know it's, I guess, um being exposed to different um people who work in a risk area and understanding, I guess, what they're seeing, what they're seeing around the world. And you know, I found it really fascinating. There were people there who, who were in roles that examined the whole geopolitical landscape of the globe and it's like wow, and I'm sitting in the same room, you know, it's like it's so fascinating that you know what other people do and their perspectives is just incredible. Yeah, and we'll have an impact. I mean, they talked.

Elaine:

I mean, I know you've done a podcast on AI and stuff, so I don't want to talk over that, but I think the thing that I've taken away from AI and probably from your podcast and this conference was, you know, that we really need to think about that in terms of injury management as we move forward, which probably isn't something until you guys ran your podcast that I'd really thought a lot about. So, yeah, I think, um, it's a fascinating world yeah, I think we can learn so much.

Deborah:

I mean, in Melissa's podcast she spoke a lot about um data science and how we can use that um and I I find that so fascinating because we use it where I work and it's just amazing the things that our people come up with. I saw a video recently as I go on a leadership course at work and it was really interesting around how our roles will change in the future with AI and robotics coming in. It's not necessarily that we will lose our jobs. It's more around that we will diversify and continue learning. So what advice would you have to someone who's new to their leadership role? So we have a lot of new leaders coming up into the world. Um, in this um revolution I would say robotic revolution um, what advice would you have for um those leaders coming into the business and having to deal with? Um some older leaders that are from a different era and um, how would they deal with each other?

Elaine:

um, because there's lots of diversity happening right now yeah, um, look like a really great and really relevant question right now. I think, um, I think the advice is just to play to strengths, um, and, and that way you'll get the best out of, um, all of the people that you're working with, because for some people, this technology and the ability to, even to want to be involved in it, is just natural, and for others it will be completely foreign. And there are also, then, you know it reminds me of the whole early adopters kind of graph you know, there are also people who really just want to learn, no matter what their age are, they want to be at the forefront of everything, and others who will step back. So so, really, um, overall, know, know people's strengths and and know how to utilize that and to get a great outcome. So, be really outcomes focused, but play to people's strengths and just accept, you know, people will move in their own time and and and and you just have to go with that Nice.

Deborah:

Good advice.

Nicola:

I'm. I'm also curious I'm probably question for the both of you actually you know, I've as our new generation of health and safety professionals come through you, you know, come through the bold, um. I'm curious to know how, how are you seeing our future generations kind of get into this more kind of safety space? Because I'm, I'm fine. What I'm finding interesting is the health and safety professionals we have now that are that that have just come out of uni, have just studied, et cetera. I find that in relation to the technical skills that we came through with, for example, our technical skills were pretty robust, whereas their people skills are pretty robust, but the technical skills a little hit and miss. But their people skills are pretty robust, but the technical skills a little hit and miss, um, but their people skills are unbelievable, like they're just connecting and getting along with everybody. So I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are on our next generation of awesome people coming through health and safety and how do we get more people in? What do we do to get more people in?

Elaine:

I know, um, well, look I think I think you're right what I can even see, um, even in, like, even with my kids going through school, there's a real, there's such a focus on emotional intelligence, and which is really great. It's certainly something that was never talked about when I was in school and it was, I guess, grew up with the. You just work hard and things will happen for you, you know, and magically things will happen. But actually it's really pleasing to see that there is that focus and that kind of fuller education rather than just academic, which is also really important. I think you're right, nicola.

Elaine:

I think just being able to attract people and so creating that kind of excitement around a health and safety role will be really important.

Elaine:

But I think what will appeal is the fact that it is a people role and and and I think we're probably going to get the move from a more compliance focus a health and safety officer policing focus to more people will make it more attractive and then we'll get a broader range of people who are interested in in the role as well.

Elaine:

So I would be very encouraging of anyone going into health and safety, because I actually think it's one of the best careers out there and I certainly love it and I think that it's because it does give that balance of people and technical. You need to know your stuff, you need to be able to get shit done basically as well and that is another technical term but you do need to be able to do that. So I guess advice is that, yes, you can always learn the technical. I would prefer to take on someone into my team who was able to get on with other people and get shit done and then learn the technical stuff as they go, and that's a preference for me, because those things you can't necessarily teach or coach.

Deborah:

I totally agree with that too. If I think about how we humanize risk, so if I think about enterprise risk, I'm a risk person, so I work in a risk environment very heavily compliance environment and but I'm starting to bring in that humanizing of risk as a whole. So, um, I think having those people skills, um, is really really important and it's probably much easier to teach the um, the risk part if you have those skills already, because really it's taking the compliance piece and interpreting it in a people way or in a humanizing way. So, um, I agree with you, elaine, it's it's easier to teach in that space well, she says she's a risk person.

Nicola:

What did I say yesterday to you via text?

Deborah:

I was like do a risk assessment on your own life let's not talk about my personal risk assessment my personal risk assessment that's a whole other podcast we were talking about um, a podcast that I recently listened to, um called journey um and it's um by Ryan Wolf and and it's he I'm a bit of a crime podcasting listener and and he does a lot of podcasts on called Guilt on Crime, but he he recently did a podcast on his journey to Nepal and to Everest and it was such an inspiring story about his journey to base camp and I said to Nicola, I just I actually felt like I was there and I felt like, oh my gosh, I want to do this Like it just sounded like something that I wanted to do and she's like you need to do a risk assessment because people die. So that's how that came up. But it was a really inspiring story and what I took out of it is exactly what we're talking about today is that thought leadership around you know, knowing yourself, knowing how you have the ability to grow as a leader, you never stop learning. Grow as a leader, you never stop learning and and never stop pushing the boundaries and to be able to have that growth mindset and move forward. I mean, I think I learn every single day.

Deborah:

There's something that I specifically learn and also one of the takeouts from one of our previous podcasts with Nicole Turnbull, she's she was really, really inspiring in in her journey and um how she spoke about, you know, assess, just reassessing her life, and um how she found her passion, um, etc. So um just thinking about that, um, yeah, and some upcoming podcasts around um having wins jars and um celebrating those. Um, small wins. So yeah, absolutely.

Elaine:

Oh, check you out. Yeah, look, um, I guess I guess um, I think it's important just to. I found that I've relaxed a lot more since in into my role. I've had a lot more fun since just accepting like who I am a little bit, and and by that I mean I've always accepted who I am. It sounds kind of silly or a little Oprah moment there, but I've always felt that because I was raised that you need to just really work hard, those things will happen. That like it, what the impact that it has on the inside is that you never feel like you reach like what you should, um and so, um. So I've just relaxed a lot more and maybe that comes, that comes with a little bit. I won't say age wisdom, it comes with wisdom, um, but that it's okay to be you and that there are lots of different types of people. I mean I mentioned Paul Deb because I know that you know him too, and he's like quite visionary, he I've.

Elaine:

He fascinates me because, like he, he can think about things in a completely different way but then there there are also people like you know.

Elaine:

There's also people who just are really good at getting stuff done, and so when I worked with Paul, we complement each other in that way so he obviously he gets stuff done. But you know, I can help him in that space and that's OK. I can be in a role like this and be me. I don't have to be like the complete visionary or you know anything else. It's okay. There is a role for every kind of person and different types of leaders and you can just go for it. But the most important thing, where you're going to have the most happiness, is when you're just being yourself and doing your thing, because it's a lot more fun.

Nicola:

Yeah, that's so true and I don't know if you've for those that may be listening today that do have a visionary leader. It can be very frustrating having a visionary. Yes, what from vision to vision, vision, vision. There's a really good book, um called traction, traction. Like you gain traction, traction, um gino, I think. Wickman wrote traction and he talks about the, the core tenants of a visionary leader and how, as the doers underneath the visionary leader, how we harness that energy yeah, I agree they're absolutely fantastic.

Deborah:

However, yeah, oh, I've got promise. I've totally had that. Um, I'm a visionary leader, as you know. Um, I always look at the big picture and and have all these wonderful ideas and, um, my um advisor um always has to say no, deborah, that you know, just take a step back. Um, we need to get there and this is how we need to get there. And I love that. I love the fact that she's able to say to me you know, just take five and let's think about how we're going to get there and take a step back. So I think, elaine, what you're saying about that complementary piece is really important.

Elaine:

Yeah, that's absolutely. And then if you had like five of your advisors and no you, deb, you know there'd be no beautiful vision that you're working towards. And if they had five of you and no advisors, you know there is that space for everybody and everybody's kind of leadership, so you don't have to try and do something different. You know Exactly, yeah, awesome. So you don't have to try and do something different. You know, and, yeah, awesome. I'm reading a book at the moment called um. If I could tell you one thing, um, and I'm really enjoying it, and so it's got all of these quotes from amazing leaders around around the world, what they would talk, tell themselves if they were a little bit younger, or pass on to another leader, and so I'll drop that into the chat for you. But it is really good. It's a good reminder of a few things. Yeah, nice.

Nicola:

Awesome. Well, we're kind of getting to the end of our time and we have got a I want to say a tradition. We have now started. I don't have to sing, do I? No, no, thank goodness. But because it is not a visual podcast people are listening to things. It is essentially charades with words, and what we're going to ask you to do is we are making a very broad assumption here, but we're assuming you have a satchel, a messenger bag, a handbag, a purse. We're assuming you have a summon, a laptop bag, maybe we don't know what you have Summon, summon. You've got a summon, summon to carry, summon A backpack. We don't know. However, what we would like you to do is we would like you to describe as best as you can something in the bag, one or two things, and we will try and guess what that thing is. Love this.

Elaine:

Okay, who knows what's at the bottom of that bag by the way but it's usually my keys when I spend an hour looking for them, but okay, the last thing I put into my bag this morning was how will I do this?

Nicola:

Okay, oh, she's describing brushing her teeth. Is it a toothbrush?

Elaine:

It is. That's the last thing I put into my bag you've got a toothbrush in your bag.

Nicola:

This is yeah. In another bag in the bag.

Elaine:

Yeah, I know well, I drink a lot of coffee, so sometimes such your teeth look really good, by the way, so thank you, I can recommend it um I I don't.

Nicola:

I've got a friend of mine whose um dad is a dentist and she brushes her teeth every time she eats oh okay like she'll take her to.

Deborah:

She also takes her toothbrush to work and she's just like but you can also brush off the enamel, so you have to be careful how much you do brush your teeth. It's a fine balance, isn't it?

Nicola:

I trust her judgment. She's got also great teeth. What else have you got in there, Elaine?

Elaine:

Oh, who knows, it's a work bag for a woman with, like, all sorts of things. It's got PPE and all sorts. I don't know whether we'd have enough time to charade it all out, oh wow, well, it's really been awesome chatting to you, elaine, um I think the key, the key takeaways.

Deborah:

I think you've had an amazing career and you've had some hardships to overcome um, but I think you've done that really well by keeping um. You know, a people focused approach and collaboration is key um. And then that thought leadership and thinking about how we can always grow and learn and always being open to learn new things. It doesn't have to be in the health and safety space, it can be, um in other spaces, looking at risk from a holistic view and then always willing to share. We always follow you and we're always excited to hear what you're going to do next. So we'll continue to do that and hopefully that we catch up soon.

Elaine:

Yeah, that would be fantastic. And look, thank you both as well and just want to acknowledge how awesome it is that you have set this up. You are two amazing ladies and doing so much for our industry, but also for women in leadership, so I really appreciate you both and I think you're fantastic, so thank you so much.

Nicola:

Well, no, apparently that's not the heart anymore, it's now something else. Oh my gosh.

Deborah:

Can we hear it?

Elaine:

I'm not doing anything. It's now something else. Oh my gosh, I'm not doing anything.

Nicola:

It's like something else. I'm like that's a heart, that's a heart everybody.

Deborah:

Yeah, share those emojis.

Elaine:

I will share those with you, for sure, for sure. Hey, thank you so much. You guys have an amazing day. Thank you you too. Bye, bye.

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