Will Power

Mentorship, Money & Mastery with Mark Figueroa

• Will Humphreys • Season 1 • Episode 52

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In this powerful episode of the Will Power Podcast, Will Humphreys sits down with Mark Figueroa, seasoned clinic owner, PT mentor, and leadership advocate to unpack the real issues facing the next generation of physical and occupational therapists. From skyrocketing student debt to shifting workplace values, Mark shares how we as clinic owners and leaders can bridge the gap through intentional mentorship, emotional intelligence, and culture-driven leadership.

What You'll Learn:

  • The real problem with the rising generation of PTs and OTs (hint: it’s not work ethic)
  • How massive student debt is warping expectations and limiting opportunities
  • Why mentorship isn’t optional, it’s the key to long-term retention and success
  • Mark’s unique 3-year “Master Clinician” development path for new grads
  • The first thing his mentorship program teaches (and why it’s not clinical)
  • How to interview for values, not just skills: “Your Story, Your Values, Your Vision”
  • The mindset shift every owner needs to make to grow with today’s workforce
  • What makes time the greatest asset for any new graduate

What’s your greatest asset right now—money, time, or mindset? Drop your thoughts in the comments or share this episode with someone navigating their next step in PT or OT.

And if you haven’t already, subscribe to the Will Power Podcast for more episodes that challenge the status quo and equip you to lead with love and live on purpose.

Connect with Mark:

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the Willpower Podcast. Our guest today is Mark Figueroa. He's a physical therapist and private practice owner who owns Del Valle Physical Therapy and Hand Therapy in New Mexico. He's been around for a number of decades and this guy knows how to hire. He hires through a mentorship program that not just builds their clinical skill set but builds them as human beings. It's a very different approach in mentoring that has resulted in unbelievable retention. We're talking top industry retention and our discussion begins with this new generation of providers that are coming up. And our discussion begins with this new generation of providers that are coming up, some of the misconceptions of how they're negatively viewed and the opportunity of how we can mentor them to not only better our business but change the profession. Enjoy the show, mark. This is such a fun topic. Let's kick it off right away with where you feel the problems are in the rising generation of PTs and OTs, like where do you see those?

Speaker 2:

problems, you know obviously. Again, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. It's the first time I've done this and I hope it is what you think it should be so great show.

Speaker 1:

Amazing and you've got such a powerful background. The people who are listening just heard your introduction. They know they relate to you because the people who are listening are mostly owners going wow, this is exactly who. I am, so I love that when do you think those problems are with this rising generation?

Speaker 2:

So you know, I think, as a private practice owner and I've been a private practice owner for 23 years you know, you see, how the business has shifted. I come from a different time, I'm a bit of a dinosaur, but you learn a lot. So what I see today that is maybe or not maybe new is obviously we have a great demand for PTs for our businesses, for our businesses and the. I think what they're getting taught to some extent is tough because they're entering a market where, you know, we, we as owners talk about, obviously, the ability to bill, the ability to collect, the ability to keep our businesses running and also providing, you know, some semblance on all, on all of our part to educating these new people coming out and helping them to develop a career I say this a lot a career, not a job.

Speaker 2:

So what I think is probably one of the biggest problems is the rising cost of education and what it costs for them to go to school and then, obviously, they're going to demand a very, very high salary coming out, and rightly so.

Speaker 2:

When you look at what your debt is to what you can earn, those tipping points are getting closer. As a business owner, what we have to look at is what is our reimbursement and what's going to be the level of responsibility and the requirement of that person in your workspace in order to cover the cost of having them there. And again, I don't want to turn this all into, you know, spreadsheet 101, but you know, and I'll be honest, one of the things that really I guess I could be a little bit honest and kind of speak my mind, because I've done this for so long, but I kind of have a problem with you know the school almost unfairly charging these really exorbitant prices when you know you've got a group of kids that are all I say kids and I apologize everybody, you're not kids, I'm just older kids.

Speaker 1:

that are all. I say kids and I apologize everybody, you're not kids, I'm just older. So I'd say Mark, I just was interviewing, I was working with some students, some students Right before this call. I had the Arizona student SIGs and I kept calling them kids and I'm like I'm sorry, I apologize and I mean no disrespect.

Speaker 2:

The generation's awesome. I'm just a bit older. We're older, yes, but you know. But they go to school and they come out and they're all really competitive right, but there's only so many slots at maybe the more affordable schools, the state schools, the state's programs, and so when they don't get in there, they almost feel like they have to go to these colleges and I'm not going to name them, but we all know who they are that are charging the $200,000, $250,000 a year to get a PT degree. So you're not coming out as an orthopedic surgeon and the ability to repay back those loans.

Speaker 2:

I think it's at least it's what I hear. You're going. I'm going to be paying $1,200 a month for the next 15 to 20 years and it just sets off a really contentious relationship when we go out and look for jobs. So I think I mean, if you, if I, had to lean into one thing, that would be part of it. Obviously, we have a lot of people that retired after the pandemic, that were older, that just didn't want to deal with a change in the way we worked. I, you know a lot of folks I've talked to out and about when I've been at different conferences, you know they talk about there's a there's, there's a new change in the way that this new group want to work, and Well you're saying work ethic like, your point is that there's been at least some buzz with some owners that maybe the work ethic is it work ethic.

Speaker 1:

Am I saying that right or?

Speaker 2:

is it?

Speaker 1:

something else.

Speaker 2:

What I would say. It's just again. It's different in the way that they want to work, All right. And so what we can do is we can grumble, we can gripe, we can get upset, we can say hey look, I worked every Thanksgiving. I did all these things in a different time. I worked every Thanksgiving. I did all these things in a different time. But we have to get creative to understand what did they come up with and what was presented to them. What did their generation provide? I mean, we didn't have to grow up with an iPhone. We didn't have to grow up with the things that I think have been a bit detrimental to society. But that's another two hour conversation that we won't have. So I think we have to get creative and start trying to understand. So I tell my management staff all the time you know, let's be curious not judgmental, be curious not judgmental.

Speaker 1:

Good wisdom, you know soccer coach of all time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you know, and so that that to me, uh, tells me that, yes, we have these, these changes, and it's never going to be the way it was. Yeah, you know, uh, and again, this is just my little take on it because I've seen it we have basically hospital and medical administrators that are graduating, that taken the place of all these older folks that had learned a few things in the administration of what we do, and they're they're going back to this concept that we can sell healthcare like we can sell tires. Well, that's what it was like when I came into the business back in the in the nineties. There was acquisitions going on. You know, health South and Novacare dominated the market. I worked for Novocare right out of school. I got laid off. Can you imagine being a physical therapist and getting laid off as a result of the Balanced Budget Act of 1996, they were going to put the therapy cap on. No one was going to make any money, so companies just got lean.

Speaker 1:

There were no jobs. There were no jobs when I was jobs when I was, there were no jobs. It was one of those things where this generation I tell them about they don't. We don't talk about that enough, mark, this generation should know their cycles and there was a period where there were no jobs.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and I mean I had to get creative. Um. So yeah, I mean I think that there's a there, there are, there are these challenges. I think we could all verse them a certain way. Some people would just lean right into this generation has no work ethic, and I think that is a misrepresentation. I agree.

Speaker 2:

I think what they value is different than what I value, mark. What do they value, in my opinion? I think it's very interesting because I think that they do value time. So, if we think about what are my assets when I'm 20 years old, what is my asset? My asset is I can work hard. I can find a way to get what I need. So I talk a lot about wants and needs, right? So you don't want to get wants until you have all your needs covered. So let's make sure your needs are covered. And what does that really mean?

Speaker 2:

So I drove my Honda Civic for, you know, three years after I graduated, I didn't buy a new car, I didn't buy anything. I bought a stereo. I bought an amazing stereo that sounded incredible. That's it. Because I needed to get out of debt, and that's my legacy. Those are my heroes. My parents, my grandparents. They taught me this idea of you know, let's be careful with debt. So that's the first thing, and I talk a lot about that to our people at our clinic. So we provide that. We provide some education and life skills. So I think that's one of the other things I think that people should always understand. When you're trying to bring people into your culture, what does your culture stand for and can they engage in it? And I'm sure everybody has that conversation and everybody goes through it. But financial hygiene we talk a lot about that.

Speaker 2:

So you know, when I graduated from school, I worked hard because I had that, I had the ability. I was excited, I wanted to help people. I don't know, it's kind of lame maybe, but that's really why I wanted to do it and I didn't need a lot, I didn't need a whole lot at the time. I think today I have groups that come out and I have very weird thoughts maybe about this. But I think that, being so connected to these things that they see this lifestyle, that maybe they want to live, but have you got all your needs covered? I mean, you have this debt, so they struggle with that because they want time. All right, so they really do need some time and they feel like they've earned some time where I never thought in those terms, I never saw in my when I came out in the world, time wasn't an asset to me. I didn't view it as that. So I think they're more sophisticated in understanding that time is an asset. So they need time, they want a great living so that they can have some of these things, and I think that that's where the lines don't shift.

Speaker 2:

So I might have said I'm going to work harder and I'm going to do everything possible and I don't need time. I don't, you know, I don't need that balance right now because I know that I'll get it on the other side, as long as I kind of stay true to my plan. And that's again paying off my debt as fast as I could and feeling like I could. I think that's another thing that really gets into this is that sometimes we talk to people and I don't know if it's because, you know, we had the pandemic.

Speaker 2:

It stunted maybe some growth and development, but there's like this almost feeling that it will never happen for them, like I can't get there, I can't pay off all this debt, I can't work that hard, I'm stuck, I'm lost. So I kind of see that as well, and when I came out of school it was like the world is your oyster, go get it. Everything that you want in this world is attainable and it doesn't matter what it is. If you want to be a staff therapist, if you want to work, you know, whatever it is. If you want to own a business. I mean, there were no limits and by no means did I think that, whatever choices and decisions I had previously made, that I couldn't play my way out of them. So I kind of feel like that's something else I get from some of our younger folks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, mark, I love that you're talking about this, because I get a strong sense that you know I love that we started this like with this bold statement of like a different work ethic. That's not the case. I think I love that you talked about value and like what they value and how their experiences have shaped it differently from ours. And and the big problem isn't that the problem is the debt, it's the focus on the money that they have to have, because they have taken so much ridiculousness around that to get to the point where we were, with much less debt, with way more opportunity so that when I hear.

Speaker 1:

When I hear owners talk about this next generation being lazy, I get really defensive. Yeah, yeah, they are actually more passionate because they wouldn't have signed up for this if they weren't. And there is this other thing that you hit upon that I agree, which is that, like there's a different value in terms of time where people are legitimately wanting to have. You know, this whole thing about um p is not wanting to work full time. That's a real common thing that we're seeing. A lot of people are coming out of school saying I just want to work 20 hours a week and the owners are like well, how are you paying your bills? And we don't.

Speaker 1:

We still don't know the answer to that but, they're valuing time and flexibility above anything else, possibly for what you said, which is that they've got this money thing that's overhanging them to the point where they can never get out from underneath it, so they might as well enjoy life while it is. And then, yes, they have cell phones which are promoting lifestyles of like. If you're not this, you're trash kind of kind of right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, there's so much it's a lot of noise.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot of noise. I think there's there's far more noise in the background than we've ever had in our lives. It's just there's so much gloom and doom and I'm trying to show definitive pathways with multiple tools and get them to understand that you have needs. Let's help you get those needs out of the way. And what are the tools that I can give you that will help you be successful to gain those needs? So, as a business owner, I have to be more dynamic than I ever thought I could be and I have to provide those types of opportunities. Right, and so let me circle back to this, because I did. Okay, I really need to be a master clinician.

Speaker 2:

So I went and studied with NIOPT and went through their whole track and did everything with them and along the way, met some great people. I mean, we could tell some stories. I've met the rock stars, some great people. I mean I we could tell some stories. I've met the rock stars of physical therapy and, and none of the. I doubt your audience will know many of them, but anyways, so I did that.

Speaker 2:

So if I could do it all over again, it's what I'm trying to teach the graduates that I'm dealing with, or and they don't have to be graduates it could be a five-year season physical therapist. That is asking okay, what do I want to do with the next? I'm trying to offer them a career, not just a job, and what I mean by that is to have the experience that I did. To some extent, they're all unique, but I would definitely become a. I would at least be offering and I do offer I will help you become a master clinician first. I think if you do that, you have set the table to be able to understand everything else you need in your business, because you'll understand how to treat a patient, and that's invaluable because you can attack every problem in your business, the way that you attack a patient If you treat your business-.

Speaker 1:

I know the problem. The patient has business.

Speaker 2:

the way that you attack a patient If you treat your business if you attack your every problem, the way you attack a patient, the way that we were trained to do an evaluation. They go hand in hand. And so then it doesn't become intimidating to say, okay, I'm going to run a business now, or I want to run a business Because I think that if you're in the debt that you are today and you're a new graduate and you're going, how on earth am I ever going to get out of this? Well, I would say you have a few choices, and life is about choices. Bottom line you made the choice to go to that school, you made the choice to take that debt. Let's own that, okay, let's not shy away from it. No-transcript. Know, dad, I'm learning these things and so I'm.

Speaker 2:

She's a little bit of my test subject, right, because she's in that, that age group, but let's really find out what is? What is your? Where do you want to be? Okay, you want to be debt free in 10 years. You want to be debt free in eight years? Perfect. But what are you willing to do to do that? Because I will tell you, in my opinion, one of the greatest gifts that you can be in this world, I don't care what your, your field of study is to be debt free. That's freedom. So I think that we need to start talking about that. But if that's not what their goal is, they say, okay, look, I've got a 12-year window, perfect.

Speaker 2:

Well, let's look at what are the options on the table to do that, because obviously you have a skill set that allows you to get that. But you cannot just look at this as my whole life goal is to pay off debt in 12 years. It also should be what kind of clinician am I going to be? What kind of experiences am I going to garner? Because and I'm sure somebody has said this out there money is not happiness. Money is choices. Money is just choices. It's not happiness. It has nothing to do with happiness. And, by the way, you want to get happy, lean into gratitude. Gratitude is where happiness begins. Money gives you choices. Gratitude makes you happy. This is not a PT. You know mobilization technique. This is something that's a life skill that I think you've got to be engaged in these kind of conversations with your people to retain and to recruit, but also to set a place where you want to work. I love that. If I can jump in, please do, because I'll keep going unless you do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love it and please do, because I'll keep going unless you do. Yeah, I love it, because what I hear in this is this idea of like, because we started with the initial problems that we see and a lot of the listeners are just like, of course. The second, I think the shift was the mindset, because when we start thinking of what it's like to be them, versus just say that they're lazy, it's not, they're not lazy. I will tell you, as you and I both know they are, the heart there's, I would argue they're actually more there's a greater work ethic just to get to where they started than we ever had to.

Speaker 1:

But this idea of like there is a gap and you're saying, to help the profession, we should fill that gap with leadership above our clinical skills. You were saying absolutely about the way we perceive life. Let's talk about our relationship with money. Is what you just said Like? There's these elements of leadership that we are doing to help upgrade, and that's what you're doing in your current practice. So let me ask you, Mark, like in your current practice, as you're upgrading, as you're working with this next generation of physical therapists it is PTs, right.

Speaker 2:

PTs and OT ot yeah, so we've got hand therapy, hand therapy, uh, as an ot specialty, and then we we're an outpatient orthopedic clinic. You know a lot of what everybody else is is trying to do awesome.

Speaker 1:

So when you like what is so you have these life lessons. Is it? Is it organic, meaning like you're just constantly looking for opportunities? Is there structure where you like? Well, every every year, I sit down and we take them to lunch and we talk about life. Tell me about what it looks like for you to mentor the leadership of the next generation so that we have a rising tide and that the profession is better. What do you do?

Speaker 2:

So, first of all, physical therapy has been so good to me. First of all, physical therapy has been so good to me. I could not have picked a better thing for me to do with my life. So that gratitude that I have to the profession makes me want to give back to the profession, because I want all of us on this podcast that you talk to your friends about is that there is some real power in what we do in the medical world, that we, that we live in this country and I feel like if you aren't walking out of the house every day, going, I make a difference. I know, again that sounds kind of hokey, kind of corny, but we do, and we do it because we get to spend more time. There's that time again, we spend more time with our patients than a lot of different clinicians do. So what are you going to do with that time? So back to your original question, though, besides just being so grateful for what we have and what we've accomplished, I'm putting together a structured mentorship program with everybody in my clinic, not just new grads. I have a couple of therapists. I have a therapist that's been with me 17 years. I have another therapist that's been with me 20 years. So what I've decided to do in my clinic is I'm mentoring on all levels. So my management team, we mentor on the business side and that's been great for me, because I didn't go to business school but I ran a business for 23 years, so I better know a few things. It just doesn't happen and you know we've made some great decisions and we made some not so great decisions. So that mentorship has been great.

Speaker 2:

And then when we brought in our new graduates, this new group, we have put together a defined package and I mean and that's what was offered to them to come work for us, I said you know what? You don't have to come to work for me and be 20 year veteran, 17 year veteran, come work for me for three years. And here's my deal and here's what I'm offering I will make you a master clinician in three years and I will make sure that you are versed in financial hygiene. Make sure that you are versed in financial hygiene, in how. How do you really find more time If and again, I'm not butting into their personal lives, it's as much as they want to offer to me to help them with, but all those things that seem to get in the way of them kind of I don't know having the fullness that they want.

Speaker 2:

We're going to have a formal program that we do. That is part of the mentorship. The very first and this is kind of fun and I really like this the first lesson that we teach in the mentorship program to this new grad group is emotional intelligence. So they have to read emotional intelligence in the very first part of your mentorship. That's the first thing, because you and I both have read the book that both says and we all know this that the level of success that you will attain in life has nothing to do with your degrees and what's after your name. It's your level of emotional intelligence. That's it. So that's the first gift we give them, that the very first day, and I've given that to everybody else in the clinic on top of it.

Speaker 1:

How's it going to seem Like you know back on it? Does it change their lives? Is it like? What does that look like?

Speaker 2:

It really depends on what they're going to do in terms of how they use it. So I've got that. I've had some people that are like, wow, that's powerful, never thought of it that way. I have others that are like, it's nice, I'll think about that. It really is, and we don't force feed anything. But it's really your level of how you want to interact with it. But we've had, in my opinion, we've had great results, but not only from our clinical staff, but from our back office staff and just understanding again the culture that you are evolving into, and then this gives them a way to engage. You can have the world's greatest culture in the world. I learned this the hard way. You could have the absolute flipping great culture, but if your staff won't engage in it, you've done a lot of work for nothing.

Speaker 1:

So that's why I start with emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:

And that's why.

Speaker 1:

Yep, that's a cultural piece for you, absolutely. And I'm guessing, so you're saying it cultural piece for you You're talking about. I'm guessing, so you're saying it depends on the person how they receive it. What's some of the feedback you've had after they've gotten into it?

Speaker 2:

So the great thing is and I forget the name of the author, it's the book title. Right on top is Emotional Intelligence. I'm sure you've read it. And then they've got a test right.

Speaker 1:

So you can go take this test and actually test. For anyone who's listening, yes, please, it's an essential because it talks about, like, where you have your gaps in there. It helps you identify your actual gaps in emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:

It's a game-changing book. So they take the test and then you know. Obviously the way that it works is you know, you take the test, read the book, work on some of the activities and then retest. That's the fun part. And again I kind of put it on them to say, look, in the next six months I want you to retest. But then I'll bring it up just like in passing hey, did you retest? Yeah, did it look any different? Yeah, it looked a lot different.

Speaker 2:

And I mean some people are very willing to share that with you because it's such a I think that piece it's very personal journey for people because you know, when I took it I went man, I'm the most emotionally intelligent cat there is. I own a business. I'll talk to the guy on the street there's, you're never a stranger if I'm in the room. But I took it and went whoa, there's some things that I could get better at. And that's what it is right. It's getting better. We'll never be perfect, but to get better. So that's the first thing we do with our mentorship program is we talk about emotional intelligence and then we can reference that in every program we put in every tough moment. That has nothing to do with clinical decision making, just the interaction. You know we have better problem solving abilities when we bring a new program on or we ask people to do new things and change, because change is the hardest thing know in any situation, and so we think if we've at least primed them with this new weapon, we can have a better outcome.

Speaker 2:

So, and again it's. It's not perfect. I and I certainly do not mean to put out there that we've developed utopia in my clinic, because we have just as many problems as you do but but we have tools to really solve those problems as they come and we learn from them every time. So we have got a formal way to teach, and that's what I'm doing. I'm heading up the mentorship program.

Speaker 2:

Give me three years and we will get you in a place where you can see a real path to whatever it is that you want to do in this field. Now, again, I need some buy-in from you, though, so it may be a lot of work if this is your time frame, but let's be clear about that. When we hire somebody, we tell them you want to command the salary. Well then, this is the amount of work I need for all of us to work symbiotically and I think those are great conversations to have. In terms of expectations, yeah, I think that. I think that that's a you know, if you're coming in commanding this huge salary, great Well this is what I'm going to have to get there.

Speaker 1:

And, mark, I'll tell you. I'm going to talk to the rock stars for a second, because, rock stars, what I like about what Mark is saying at this point is if you're listening is that we could do a much better job of telling the person we're hiring what the outcome is and when to expect it. So, rock stars, as owners and leaders, we already understand this concept of when a patient comes into the clinic and we're talking to them and they're looking to us to help them and we say there's a difference in buy-in when we say, well, let's treat you for two to three times a week for three to four weeks, and after a month, let's take a look Versus Susan, I want you coming three times a week In four weeks. We will resolve this. If by any chance it's not resolved, we'll understand what we're missing and make a new plan. So, as owners, when we're hiring, I love how Mark's talking about culture to begin, and this thing called the end in mind.

Speaker 1:

What did Mark say In three years, if you give me and he's really clear on the agreement here's what I expect from you and this is the salary you want, but here's what the path looks like.

Speaker 1:

The number one reason why people leave a company is because they don't see a future in it, and so if we can create that future in it and have markable outcomes, in three years you will be able to pay down your debt, feel in charge of your career, have work-life balance.

Speaker 1:

And, by the way, it's not just clinical skills you're going to get. You've got to get emotional intelligence, you've got to get this other thing called leadership development, and Mark is competing in a world of one when he recruits, so his problem then becomes messaging. Maybe you've got that mastered, mark, but, like most people, where they really, where people struggle, they're like where do I begin? It's like begin with the offer, start with the end in mind of who you want, yes, and then build towards that person with an offer and then, when you're as far along as mark is, see mark, I'm willing to bet you struggle with retention a lot less than others, and where we could all improve is on that thing called messaging of like how do we get people who've never met Mark or know any of his team members?

Speaker 1:

to know about this product Cause it's not a fit for all, but for the people it is. They're going to move mountains, to move to New Mexico to go work for him, so I'm sure recruit so retention, I'm guessing is is a much better situation.

Speaker 2:

The average therapist tell me about retention. It's great, you know. Uh, we, last year we had a um. We, we had two people that we got from a school in Arizona and they came out and, um, one of them is still with me. We did, we, within about nine months, a person left. Uh, she was a new grad, uh, 24 years old, and her exact thing. And so for us, what we deal, deal with this is where we're located, where we're about a hundred thousand in terms of a city. We're not, we're not the hotbed of, you know, a real young generation in our town. We're a retirement city really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, people are going to New Mexico when they're younger. Yeah, a lot of people will go to school here and leave New Mexico, and I did, and I want to circle back to that because there's a point to that as well. But anyways, so she came, she was great, she bought in, she wanted the mentorship. She met somebody who was in Phoenix and decided to move to Phoenix to be closer to him. But on her exit and I'm sure everybody does that, especially on the people that leave, that you don't have to get, I mean maybe say fire the people that leave, like in this situation, boy, we scrubbed as much as we could to get as much information from her. What are we doing right? What can we do better? How did we recruit you? Did you like the way you recruited, did we? I mean, were we competitive? Blah, blah, blah blah. You can get so much information. And she said you know what, mark, if you had a Del Valle in Phoenix, I'd be there Monday morning. She goes I just need to be closer to this person that she wants to get close to. So that's the kind of things we compete with. But, like I told you, we've got 20 years, 17 years. I've got one employee. My chief operating officer has been with us for 23 years, been here since the inception of the company. So there are things that you can't put on paper, that you can't put in a metric, that are going to get buy-in and retention, but you've got to do them and they're going to be different for everybody.

Speaker 2:

It has to resonate with your values first, and you need to know what that is. I would say, when we interview folks, we have a very funny not funny way of interviewing, but we interview. But when they get to me and I'm the last person I asked them three questions. I don't ask them to resolve problems, or did you? You know what's your greatest strength? I asked him three questions. I said today we're going to talk about three things your story, your value and your vision. Tell me what your story is, tell me what your values are, tell me what your vision is, and if those resonate with what mine are, then we might be able to be Navy SEALs of physical therapy together and then we get excited and we start having fun immediately. So that's how we approach this a little bit different, but you know, going back to what we were with, experience, pardon me, just figured out the line of questioning on your own Cause.

Speaker 1:

I'll tell you directly. I hired coaches when I couldn't hire years ago and I literally ask those same three questions in a different way. When I have a six question interview, um, when I was hiring for 26 locations and that was my superpower, literally that was, those were three of my six locations. Uh, questions was like this idea of like purpose being history, values, present, vision, future, and I love how you get that. Did you figure that out on your own?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I mean it's, it's pretty pretty, pretty simple, but and you know I'm gonna stop this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get companies for years.

Speaker 1:

It is not that simple for people to see. So I want people rock stars to listen to what he did. As a side note, mark, because I want to get to this story about how you left and came back is this idea that we started the episode talking about the problems of physical therapy? This episode is all about how to build a brighter future for the profession through our practice. So what we're learning is it comes back to leadership, because there's a gap that we identify between the students and the current generation. Then you bridge it by building their future, with them in mind, around the values of the company, but is able to provide a distinct product and a path for their students to become powerful, independent leaders. That's how we save the profession. That's how we rise the tide across the board.

Speaker 1:

So I think it's cool because you are a living example of that piece. I'm sure you have your problems, like you said, but you have people who are with you for 20 some odd years, mark. That tells me that you are in a position of having absolute mastery of learning how to build leaders and that if we could do a better job of across the yeah, I mean it doesn't solve recruiting, it doesn't solve marketing messaging, it doesn't solve a few other issues. It doesn't solve reimbursement yet. But I would even argue over time that would eventually solve those other problems. Can we jump a little bit? I'd like to hear the succinct as possible. So I graduated from UNM University of New Mexico in 1997.

Speaker 2:

My first job was in Las Cruces because I needed the same thing that everybody else did. I needed a job and it was a good opportunity. So I came here instead of staying in Albuquerque, which was going to be a lot harder, but it really fit a lot of the pieces of what I wanted. After about a year and a half I got laid off, basically. But the company I worked for, which was Novocare, they also staffed a hospital here in town, so they just pushed me into the hospital and I was not going to work in a hospital. So I had resumes out all over the place and within about a week in the hospital, two weeks, they sent me to Santa Fe here in New Mexico to run a clinic for them in Santa Fe. It was an outpatient office there, so it was a little bump in salary. So and if I told you guys what my salaries were back then you would just go why on earth would you do this? So I went to Santa Fe, got a little bump there and was there for about nine months and then I ended up in Western New York. I met a girl, moved out to Western New York Actually I was living in Canada but then Western New York through another friend of mine, mike Adesso there's a shout-out to Mike Adesso Was working for a company Western New York Physical and Occupational Therapy Group, the worst name on the planet and they brought me in and I took about a $25,000 pay cut to work there and take on twice the responsibility. So this is what I want to kind of make the point of. I took a big pay cut and, yeah, there was a person there that I was working for. They were great friends with many of the pioneers of physical therapy. Dick Earhart would come from Pennsylvania to do con ed classes because there was not a con ed requirement in New York, but he would come so he could drink beer with his old buddies and show us a few minutes on a weekend. Anybody that knows Dick Earhart he's a legend. I got to ride around in a golf cart with Mike Rogers, who was Gulf States Physical Therapy back 100 years ago, one of the first manual therapy certifications. I didn't even know who these giants were, but I got to know them through this.

Speaker 2:

I was at an AOPT meeting in 2001 when Earl Petman was the keynote speaker, and if you don't know who Earl Petman is, earl Petman is definitely one of my heroes. So I got to listen to Earl Petman. I'm sitting on a couch with Dick Earhart. Ask Dick, what would you do if you were me? I'm four years out of school, I want to become a master clinician. And he was talking about University of Pittsburgh, where he was at we're doing this, that and the other. And he stopped cold and said forget that, go learn from that guy. So I got the world's greatest advice from some of the greatest physical therapists in our orbit and I got in touch. I took every one of my NIOPT courses with Earl Petman. What a joy.

Speaker 2:

So I got a career and had I not taken that measly $20,000 pay cut and I say measly now? At the time it was, oh my gosh, it was awful. But had I not done that, I would not have had part of the life I have today. So when you're looking at offers and you're looking at the money and you're going, man, I got to make the most money possible. This is why we're talking about these things right now is what is that person going to do with you, and are you going to work with them or are you going to work for them? I think that's a huge distinction between your next job. Are you working for somebody or are you working with somebody? And if you don't know the difference, then you have some questions to ask, because everybody that works in my clinic works with me and I work with them and, like I said, you want to have these things figured out before you even get into that negotiation.

Speaker 2:

In that, yes, you're going to make money and you've got to make some money. I get that. You have needs and we've got to get those needs taken out of the way. But you also have a life, and this goes back to what I was talking about earlier. You can't just look and say, okay, because I'm going to help you do that.

Speaker 2:

12 years, get rid of your student debt. This is what you do. Boom, we've got it. But what kind of person are you going to become? From point A to point B? What kind of clinician? What are you going to have? Because the other gap that these kids don't have again I said kids that these young professionals don't have when they leave school is they don't have the level of experience treating a patient. There's going to be some anxiety when somebody walks in and they've never seen the diagnoses. In three years, you can be a master clinician and you will not have that level of anxiety any longer with what we're going to teach you. So those are the kinds of things that I think, as a student or a new grad or a five-year grad for that matter those are the kinds of things that I think you should want to hear.

Speaker 2:

If you're on this arc and you haven't got to a point in life where you can say my life is about wants now and it's no longer about needs, there is an arc that you have to go on.

Speaker 2:

And then, in order to really make your time an asset, that's the arc you have to go on, because at some point that time is going to be more valuable than money and the only way you turn your time more valuable than money is you got to get all those needs taken care of. And let's have that conversation and let's be clear about it and let's not pussyfoot around it. And for every owner out there that wants to play the nuclear arms race of how much we pay these kids that are coming out of school, think about that Every single time you go. Well, I guess we could pay them $140,000. But we got a decrease in Medicare. And again, if you're a private practice, this does not apply to you. I understand that. But if you are in the world that I'm in, where we have third-party reimbursement, we all need to be responsible to this idea of what are we paying these people, because it's not sustainable. We are going to hit a tipping point.

Speaker 1:

When we don't honor the income that we're making, we're perpetuating the problem Absolutely. And when you were talking to the students directly, mark it because it was like, yeah, that's cool, I was, you ended up going there. But my thought was like this is great for owners to hear, because if we can stop doing the nuclear arms race of competing because students, when they don't know, they don't have that clarity of they're going to work with us and there's an end in mind and a product for being there that goes beyond a skill set, they end up they we're leaving it to them to go. Well, you have a lot of debt, so you're going to take this job for a thousand dollar difference. Your story. The big takeaway out of that was this idea that, like, what we want to invest in at a school is money is a big part of that, but, but it's not the biggest part.

Speaker 1:

The biggest part is who we become and who we this is I get. I mentor students across the country. I speak at universities. All the time. The thing I say to them is stop worrying about passing the boards and start focusing on who you should work with, because when you graduate, the thing that will matter is the company you work with and the leaders you learn from. If you can get that right, you'll be fine. You pass the boards.

Speaker 1:

I said you're all eventually going to pass the boards, even though you and I both know that Absolutely. It's like you know yeah, pass the boards, worry about it, but you've got to invest time now to start figuring that out, because they pass the boards, they're like everything's going to be fine. No, no, this is where the hardship comes in. So listen, mark, you've been phenomenal. I. I think we've hit a really hard point and a very powerful point that I want to end on, because we have completed a cycle of the fit. I didn't find the the the main issue in the industry and we've really built out this whole beautiful. You just unloaded tons of value around this thing, around how we create an experience for our next generation.

Speaker 1:

That will serve us in recruiting, by the way, but also build them to be leaders, to think about profitability, how we as owners should take a stand against, just like marginalizing the business by trying to pay more as our only differentiator, and how that changes the industry as a whole. So, Mark, I would love for a couple of parting questions before we end. And number one is there a besides emotional intelligence? What's another book that you recommend to?

Speaker 2:

people. The psychology of money, you know, that's the one that I think everybody should have that book in their library. I don't care if you are a 20-year veteran of this, if you're a new grad, my daughter. I'm paying my daughter $100 to read this book and to write me a two-page summary of this book. It is very simple. It's a great read. It is very simple, it's a great read and I think that in our society, people have to understand that money does not equate to happiness. It gives you choices and options and I think there's nothing wrong with money. I'm not villainizing, there's nothing. I mean, make as much money as you can, but I think the psychology of money is really interesting. I think it's a great. It's such an easy read and you walk away going. Man, that's awesome. And this is what I would have told somebody when they were 20 years old. This would be the advice I would have given them.

Speaker 2:

The greatest asset that all these young people coming out of school, their greatest asset I'm going to ask you Will, what do you think the greatest asset of that new graduate walking out of school? What is their greatest asset If they're 24 years old? What's their greatest asset? Their time. Their time. Absolutely, man. I, like you, Will. This has been a lot of fun.

Speaker 1:

I, like you too, I've had a great time, they have time.

Speaker 2:

So when they're stressed and really worried about this whole thing, they're on this journey of they've got time. And if you make the right decisions, boy. I wish I had made a lot better decisions with my financial world at those early years, because time is your greatest asset. My 20-year-old daughter now, when I ask her what's your greatest asset, she says Dad, it's my time. Madison, there you go, Perfect. What's your next question?

Speaker 1:

I want to finish on that one. I think you hit it so hard, mark. You were phenomenal. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show. Guys, like I said at the intro, go check out his clinic, his website, go learn about more. But if they do want to get a hold of you directly, mark, how do they do?

Speaker 2:

that. I think we have my email address that I gave you. It's my personal email address and I give it. You can blast that.

Speaker 2:

I spoke at CSM earlier this year and this is my challenge to everybody listening. I spoke at CSM this year to a group of 100 students and I gave very similar things. In my talk I said look, what I'm giving you that I won't give anybody else is. I give you 100% access to my experience. You can ask me any question. I will help you with anything. I got zero responses and that was about six months ago. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know everything, but if I knew somebody that was willing to give me advice without having to subscribe or have to do something in order to do I'm going to bombard your email box with things. No, I just want to share what I can to help you be better and to make our profession better. That's how much I believe in this. So I challenge your audience. If you have a question, please ask and I will tell you. And if I don't know the answer, I've got great resources. Can I throw a couple of shout outs real quick before we leave, of course, so these are people that are just great in my life and I feel like I've never had a venue to say great things. So my buddy Mike Adesso that got me my job for Western New York Physical Therapy. Mike Steve Allred. Our buddy, jamie Schreier our friend Love that guy. Practice Freedom If anybody needs a little help in your practice, go look at Practice Freedom with Jamie Schreier Good stuff.

Speaker 2:

Linda John Do you know Linda John? If you don't know Linda John, you need to know Linda John. How about Eva Norman? Do you know Eva Norman? Ira Gorman how about Ira Gotta? Know Ira? Drew Contreras at APTA oh my gosh, if you see Drew sitting at the bar, go sit and have a drink. The guy's got the best stories. Smart dude. If Drew and I are drinking at the bar together, sit there for two hours, we will have a ball. Paul Welk if anybody needs a great attorney, talk to Paul. If you don't know Paul, paul is phenomenal, good friend of mine. And then I want to say anybody that knew Phil Teigel, phil passed this year and he was a giant in our uh pt community in the legislative side. We didn't even get to that we do. I do a whole other legislative side to what we do. I I go to congress a couple times a year and all the good people, if you want to talk about.

Speaker 2:

Hey, listen, I'm huge on advocacy. I could talk for an hour on advocacy. And why so anybody that is not a member of the APTA? If you don't want to be a member, I respect that, but email me. Let's have a conversation and let's talk about why we're not. And if you're not, if you're not giving a little money to the pack, tell me why and I'll tell you why it's important that you do so. I mean, we could do this all day, will? You didn't give me enough time, will?

Speaker 1:

I had a whole section ready for that. I won't just have to have you back, Mark. That's all it means.

Speaker 2:

Hey, listen, I really enjoyed today and I really appreciate what you're doing for the profession. Oh, you're so cool and when we get off, when we're finished, I got something else for you.

Speaker 1:

Oh guys, I can't wait to tell you what that is. So listen, mark, you've been phenomenal, such a great guest. Rockstars, take this man's up, take this advice up. Really, reach out if you have any questions. Those people you mentioned are phenomenal and I just reiterate that Mark is a great place to start. If you don't have a network, if you have someone like Mark in your corner, there's nothing you can't overcome. So, rockstars, thanks for tuning in to the Willpower Podcast.

Speaker 1:

As always, this is Will Humphries, reminding you to lead with love, live on purpose and never give up on your freedom. Until next time. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to today's episode. As a thank you, I have a gift. In today's show notes there's a link for you to join the Stress-Free PT newsletter. This is a comedy newsletter for anyone who works in healthcare and of course, we're going to have comedy bits. We're going to have inspirational stories, leadership tidbits. It's going to be a weekly newsletter just to lighten your week, to help you do what you love with more passion. So click that link below and join that newsletter and we'll see you in our next episode.

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