Paul Cords on the Future of Physical Therapy

Will sits down with Paul Cords, physical therapist, adjunct professor, and PRN clinical excellence rep, live at APTA CSM. The conversation centers on primary care physical therapy: the idea that PTs aren't just a referral stop after a doctor's visit. In states like Arizona, they can be the first call for a musculoskeletal emergency, ahead of the ER.

Paul and Will get into what's actually possible under current PT licensure (imaging referrals, differential diagnosis, same-day triage), why regulations differ so much state to state, and why PTs still don't own this authority in practice. They talk about the "seat at the table" problem: PTs are often left out of the referral and care-team conversations that happen naturally between physicians, and that has to change through both confidence and relationships, not just legislation.

In this episode, they cover:

• What primary care PT actually means, and why it's more than "skip the family doctor"
• How PTs in states like Arizona can already send patients for same-day imaging
• Why musculoskeletal cases might be triaged better by a PT than an ER
• The "seat at the table" problem, and why it's personal before it's professional
• A patient story: going from 100mg of daily Oxy to opioid-free in one month
• Why academia is starting to teach case ownership, not just documentation
• What it looks like when a PT is paid for wellness visits, not just injury visits
• Where Paul sees the profession heading, and what has to change to get there

Paul Cords is a physical therapist, adjunct professor at NAU, and clinical excellence rep with PRN. He also does nonprofit and leadership development work in Tanzania through Zoe Hope International.

Thanks to PRN for supporting this episode.

Lead with love. Never give up.

Virtual Rockstars specialize in helping support or replace all non-clinical roles.
Learn how a Virtual Rockstar can help scale your physical therapy practice.

Subscribe here to our completely free Stress-Free PT Newsletter for your weekly dose of joy. 

Transcript

Live From APTA CSM

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Willpower Podcast, live at APTA CSM. We're here with physical therapy leaders and practice owners from across the country talking about where the industry is going and what it takes to grow in today's landscape. Today I'm joined by Paul Kords, physical therapist and adjunct professor, discussing the growing movement of primary care physical therapy and why it's time for PTs to step into their role as first-line musculoskeletal doctors with confidence. Let's get into it.

Defining Primary Care Physical Therapy

SPEAKER_01 0:32

All right, well, Paul, let's get right into primary care physical therapy. Let's go. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

So it's uh it's something that PTs, especially the outpatient space, have not owned. They have not owned the fact that we have the ability to do a lot for our patients. We have the ability to really be a primary overseer of their care. Uh, because we're a connected person, especially for musculoscatal cases. Sometimes we can be even better of a triage team than an ER for a specific musculoscatal case. So patients don't know that we can do that. Uh, so they end up going to the ER for an emergent situation, like their back went out on them, right? You know, they got a back spasm. You should probably actually drive straight to your PT because we can help you in the moment with pain control. We can diagnose, we can differentially diagnose, we can make sure that if you do need an image, that we can send you for an image and you can get it same day. Like we can do all that. We can send for an image.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

We can do it in Arizona at least. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, so that already, I thought I already knew this topic before you sat down. So my mind is blown in the first question because I understood that primary care was more like the idea that instead of going to a family care physician, getting in on the calendar, waiting for it to get in, and then they just give you medication or send you out for testing, that they'd come to us. But you were you're using it as like even emergency care.

Imaging Access And Fast Triage

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah, because one.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

That's crazy awesome. So in Arizona, what's the regulations around that? Because I know it's different by state right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Different by state. And the APTA is doing a great job of trying to promote not only imaging rights, but also like blood testing rights, is what they're working on in the next couple couple years. Uh, but they got imaging in Arizona at least, and so a PT can write a script straight from the imaging centers. Uh, and then it depends on who's gonna pay for it, of course. Uh, but uh, you know, that we're we're fully available and ready to send those scripts out whenever we want.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

It's amazing to me. Um, a company called Redirect Health, which is also based out of Arizona, is run by a guy named Dave Berg. And the entire concept of redirect health is that they do negotiations for cash pay services across the country. And what they're finding is when we have a typical insurance program, we're paying large monthly premiums as well as these high-level deductibles. And so he calls it prepaid health care versus how we see it as insurance. And so what his company has done, and they've exploded across the country, they have tens of thousands of companies who've signed with them, including my company, where people they call a number and someone negotiates cash pay services, and it turns out to be like you get MRIs for under $200, which is really nice when you're paying all a very tiny monthly premium and you have no deductibles, you actually save thousands of dollars. So when people come to PT as the primary care, these types of changes are going to support those decisions so that people get better help quicker and save so much money. Yep. Yeah.

Policy Momentum And Lower Copays

SPEAKER_01 3:14

So talk to talk to me about like where this is kind of more on a national scale. Like, where are we with this primary care physical therapy concept?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, and I think it starts, uh, it starts with uh, of course, the rights and the litig and the you know, the opportunities that we have with our licensure. Uh, and I honestly am not the best person to talk about every state because there's so many disparities, there's so many differences. And even as PRN, we have we have 17 states covered, and even within our own house, we have different rights. Yeah. So we can't even write a best practice document because we it's not gonna work for everybody. So we have to be, we have to be location specific, region specific, um, with all the things that we hope to accomplish.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

But yeah, it's interesting because a previous guest on the show is a guy named Brad Powell. He is uh a private practice physical therapist in Utah. So he was telling me how they recently just earned designation from the state as a primary care service. Yeah. And this is so big for lots of reasons, but one of the most interesting ones is that now what they're doing is they're lobbying to make to where their co-pays, insurances are forced to see them and respect a PT as a primary care physician, which means they're not the patients aren't paying specialties but co-pays. You know, the specialty co-pay is always triple what that standard primary care co-pay is. And so when you're coming to a specialist like an orthopedic surgeon, that $80 one-time pay isn't as impactful as three times a week for a physical therapist or occupational therapist. So this is major ground that we're covering together.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah. And again, what that what that feels like to be a physical therapist in that, you know, I'm a practicing PT. Um, we already can do all of these things for our patients. Whether somebody's paying for it or not, we can be empowered to make good clinical decisions. We can be empowered to send when they need to be sent to the right people at the right time for whatever their case needs. Right. And we have to be able to own that as a therapist, whether we have the right to do it or not, we're licensed to do that work. And I think that also starts in academia.

Teaching Ownership In PT Education

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Um, and I'm an adjunct to NAU. And some of the some of the curriculum changes just in the last year, teaching these students not only that there's uh, you know, there's red flags that we have to find, but like there's more to networking and there's more to your availability of the whole healthcare system than just putting your face in the computer and doing your note. Like you need to be able to manage that case from start to finish all the way through. No matter if you send them out, they're gonna come back. If we're gonna do a triage for somebody that may need a surgery, yeah, give them some help right off the bat, but then send them for surgery. You'll see them afterwards. You see that case from start to finish, and you finally get some sort of a, you know, a nice pretty bow of a case rather than the disjointed medical system that most people are working with.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

It's interesting that you are at the university level because I have been very loud on this show about how people at the university level unintentionally start to shape our minds into being into scarcity when we say things like, when I was in school, it would tell me your license is your livelihood, you better make sure that you document because it if you mess up this much, you can go to jail, is how I received it. Yep. And so it already put me on my defensive posturing when I became a PT. That's crazy. Versus we're a doctor in the community. You have a doctorate degree, you need to own it, own it, show up like it's your responsibility to help musculoskeletal industries, and we already know the stats, right, Paul? Like there is other individual in healthcare besides orthopedic surgeons who know the musculoskeletal system nearly as good as we do. And so it's fun to see how you're changing making that change at the university level to get people in that mindset. What are some of the, besides mindset, what other challenges do you see in our path to becoming primary care physicians in physical therapy?

Earning Respect Through Real Networking

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Um, I would say a lot of it is uh is having a seat at the table in networking conversations. And a lot of that is just personal right now, it's not professionalized. So if you know a surgeon and you just shake their hand and you've known them forever, you're likely to send to them. But that kind of referral networking, uh, I call it having a seat at the table. It's like PTs should be a part of decision-making processes on cases from the start. Yeah. You know, like if a family practice person uh is seeing their normal people for well visits and well checks, and we're we're all talking about preventative medicine, like a PT should have a voice in that case pretty early on. Absolutely so gaining that kind of respect and getting that seat at the table is a challenge, you know, because it has to go beyond that personal handshake, uh, and it has to go all the way to that that kind of understood cultural norm for a musculoskeletal presentation, or even just prevent it prevention as a whole. Like we're the perfect, uh, we're the perfect medical professional to talk about preventative medicine. Uh we are the best, probably the only one that should. Uh, but at the same time, it's going into, you know, it's going more into the body modification world than it is into the medical field. Uh, but that shift, that shift is, you can feel it coming culturally, you can feel it coming from everywhere else. Uh, but we just have to have a seat at the table, dude.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah, it's so true. The seat at the table. It's funny when I started a company in Alaska, after my main PT company, I started an electrodiagnostic company in Anchorage and Wasilla. And so my partner and I, we went up there and we did the typical PT marketing where we put on our polo shirt and our jeans and our you know, slacks, actually. And we walked into doctors' offices and two things hit us in the face. Number one, none of the physicians wanted to see us because we were an ancillary service. Number two, they didn't want to see us because they could clearly see we weren't from Alaska, which is kind of a side note. Like people in Alaska don't wear the typical PT gear. Um, and so we we totally decided let's reshape things because we are doctors in our communities. So instead of going to the doctor's office and saying, hi, my name is Will, I'm the physical therapist. I walked up and said, Hey, my name is Dr. Humphries. I'm an electrophysiologist, which I am. And I said, I would love to meet your doctor to see if there's ways that we can support each other's clients. That equal, right in being an equal in our mindset is kind of where it's got to start. We're not gonna win anything legal if we don't believe that we're equal. And what was funny is it was amazing how doctors came right out. They're just, and by then we were wearing jeans and like a little battered shirt because we looked like we were more from Alaska. But you know, the doctors would come right out and be like, oh, Dr. Humphreys, it's such a pleasure to meet you. And then I had, and we were all like, my friend was like, dude, what if they find out what PTs? Like they care. That's right. One guy asked, he's like, so, so, oh, great. So what kind are you? M D O D O? We're like, oh, we're PT. Oh, I didn't know you guys. I didn't he didn't he literally said, Oh, I didn't know you guys were doctors. It's like, yeah, that's more of a recent thing. We've been able to get our DPTs now for the last 15 years, and so we're doctors of physical therapy, that kind of thing. So it's amazing how just how we show up has everything to do in terms of how we get a seat at that table.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yes, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

How what's your journey on that? Like, how has that been for you to earn your seat at the table with PRN, with your a doctor in the community?

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah, I feel like the uh the journey has been uh kind of independent, if you will, but at the same time supported. Yeah. PRN is really, especially as a clinical excellence rep, um, you know, the clinical excellence department is really trying to build up people to have the confidence, not only in their practice styles, uh, but on their daily, that they have the capacity to have these conversations with people. Um, and that's kind of where my heartbeat came from, but I had to do it without that support. Um, you know, because I was starting to starting to direct a clinic is 10 years ago. Uh, and like we had a marketing team, we had these guys that were going out and and giving our pamphlets to everybody, and they'd go to, you know, lunches and lunch and learns. And of course, I was always the one that was willing to go, which my marketing team loved. Yeah. So they couldn't get PTs out there. Um, so anyway, just started networking and started meeting with people. And and again, like getting over that, getting over that hump of this is gonna be a different relationship, this is gonna be a different referral relationship. Um, was kind of an independent venture, it felt 10 years ago. Um, and at this point, it's it's like the common practice that we're trying to get people to understand. So, you know, is it working? I still feel like there's a lot to there's a lot to be said about uh how much ownership we really take over cases. And I try to take ownership, I try to make sure that the patients understand, but we're still in this system of trying to play catch up as soon as we get to see a referred patient. Um so the actual vibe of uh of what it means on the daily is still kind of two worlds. I still kind of have a foot in the old way where we just do what's what's written on the script. Uh, and I try to flip that and turn that into a case management situation, um, which turns into doctor relationships, but um, that's playing catch up. But we also have the other side where people are coming as the primary as the primary option and coming with multiple problems or new problems, or yeah, you know, they understand that they shouldn't go to the ER, they should come to our, you know, and have a migraine, they should come to their PT. Like, let's do it. Um, so I've got that. It's almost like two two different practice styles in the same clinic right now. Interesting. Um, because we have to function in cultural stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

So what are some of the major fears that like your team has expressed when they start transitioning into becoming more of those uh primary care ph physicians versus just a referral source that gets or a service that gets just referred out to?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah. Honestly, every time we get to talk about it more, they get excited about it. So it's I wouldn't call it a fear, I would call it a an ignorance almost.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Okay, so it's not so much fear as like, well, what that what would that even look like? Yeah. So what does it look like? What does it look like in a new model where we're primary care physicians at an outpatient practice? Like, what does that look like from kind of just walk me through a patient experience of someone who you've treated in that capacity as a primary care physician?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Okay.

Patient Story From Opioids To Life

SPEAKER_00 12:52

So uh the patient that comes to mind is a patient that came the old way. They showed up from a pain management uh physician and they're they've been on their pain meds for eight years and they're on 100 milligrams of oxy every day, not really knowing what their pain really was anyway. They were just addicted to corchioids. So they showed up begrudgingly to physical therapy. Um, and we just talked about the options. We talked about the options of what it really means to do like a titration and a desensitization protocol and get you off of those pain meds so we can actually realize what's going on with your body. Um, and we did that together. So we went through that process um relatively independently, but we included the pain management to say, hey, we want to do this, and they did it in a month. They got all the way off of 100 milligrams of oxygen a month. They went through withdrawal. We talked about those symptoms of withdrawal for a couple weeks. Uh, and by the time they were off of the meds, they didn't have pain. They didn't actually have a dicted to medication. And so we talked through like health and health and like how you're gonna function in the world. Uh, and this patient was working, you know, odds-ends jobs as they could, but they couldn't hold a job, of course, because they're addicted to opioids. Um, but then immediately found a job at a warehouse and quickly became a manager of that warehouse and a functional member of society. This happened in three we in three months.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

It's interesting to me. I'm sure people are listening going, well, why didn't the pain management doctor do this? And it's for the same reason that most PTs don't think of themselves as doctors. They're too busy just keeping up with what's in front of them to think bigger. So we are in a unique position in physical therapy where we have more time to dedicate to our patients, which is one of the reasons we all have chosen this profession. Correct. I always say this. PTs are some of the most passionate people in the world because PTs, OTs, and SLPs, you they don't go into it for the money. Yeah, they're in it because they want to connect and make a deep, lasting relationship issue. So we can, if we think of ourselves as doctors, we can combine those two things to make lasting change. That way that's it. You know, other doctors don't do.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah. And again, we see we see our cases as these two times a week for six-week things, and you're done. But again, with that patient, she actually went off of her insurance company. Like she changed insurance companies and did have insurance. She got her boss to just do cash pay uh quarterly physical therapy checkups and visits for a whole year. So I literally was talking through everything that she was she was having going on. They were trying to get pregnant. Like, there's a lot of stuff to do with that. There's a lot of lifestyle management opportunities. So her boss literally paid for physical therapy visits every other month, and that's what we did. That was her healthcare. Um, and still to this day, when now she's on new new things, we have pretty pretty frequent visits, at least once every semester, as a checkup, right? Like you go to your doctor for a well visit, you can go to your PT for a well visit and just talk about your goals, talk about the the functions that you're you're aspiring to do and you want to accomplish. You don't have to type in chat GPT, give me an exercise plan to do a hundred push-ups. Like, go see your PT. Let's talk about all the things that you can do. Um, not only lifestyle management, but like let's work you towards that functional goal, which is exactly why we exist, is to improve function. Um, you don't have to be hurt to improve your function. It's called wellness. So we do that too.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

So what a great pivot that would be to be in a space where we were seen as the life's the life-enhancing medical service. Like you go there when you're doing fine, but you want to do great versus I'm sick and injured and they don't know about us because we just don't market our industry well enough, right? They think 80% of people, when they get hurt their backs, think of chiropractic first because of how they market. In our case, we are the go-to source for that particular type of injury. So, Paul, what is your vision? Where do you want to see this going like eventually? No matter I don't know what time frame, but what would you love to see the industry as this as we call this thing primary care PT is concerned?

The Future Of Team-Based Care

SPEAKER_01 16:43

What would you want to see?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Well, I think the the the greater vision really is a healthcare vision of collab we we talk about collaborative medicine a lot. We talk about a team-based approach, we talk about you know, hospital systems have a PT as a part of their care team, like all that stuff. So then we go to the outpatient world and the concierge models and all that stuff. Um, I feel like the the future of where a PT has their seat at the table uh is in a collaborative situation where you get a patient that's that's literally taken through every element of their health because we have enough data indicators, we have enough things to talk about as far as numbers go. But then the PT will be the one that actually not only uh provides the opportunity for action, like this is what we're gonna do, but then follow-up and and progression. Because I feel like we are we are some of those minds that think about progression and goals completely differently than healthcare industry standards. We want to see somebody not only reach their goal, but then maintain that goal and maybe reach another one. It's not just I'm gonna put you on this medication for the rest of your life. Yeah, like a diabetic person doesn't want to be on that medication forever. So let's be a part of that team, that team-based approach, whether they're gonna make a, you know, whether they're gonna make an AI twin of that patient and the medication's whatever that stuff's gonna be. We're the doers in that situation. Right. What are you gonna do? Like exercise is gonna help you a lot. Strength training is actually what's gonna take this away from your system and create this lack of insulin deficiency. You need muscle to do that. So let's build that as a part of the medical process. You need a personal trainer to do that. The medical system should be helping you with that. We need to be that voice.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I was so inspired by what you just said. It's hard for me not to start like imagining and seeing things, and branding is really important to me. What would it look like if the community, that all people in the United States knew PT specifically, and OT? I'd say PT and OT, SLP, is in there in different ways as well. But what if they thought of us in the rehamp space as the muscle and bone experts? Like they don't think of personal trainer first, they don't think of chiropractic, they don't think of family physician. They go, anything muscle and bone, I'm going to a PT. And that PT is a doctor, and that PT has a seat at the table. And Rockstar has what would it look like if not only do we have a seat at the table, but we were the head seat of a table called the musculoskeletal system, where all doctors went to us and respected us, and we were seen as equals with the orthopedic surgeons, and they were seen as the last resort, and we were seen as the light of a new day. There you go. Wouldn't that be a mimodding? Okay. Paul, this has been such a phenomenal uh interview. I can't thank you enough for being here. And I love PRN. We had a couple of your friends here yesterday at CSM, and I'm a big fan of PRN. I say that very loudly, and I said last time I I don't usually recommend companies. I only have companies on that I like and I trust, but I recommend PRN. I think what you guys do is phenomenal. Um, I'd like to do a rapid fire set of questions now to wrap things up.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Love

Rapid Fire On Life And Leadership

SPEAKER_00 19:43

that.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Okay. What's the first based on this episode? What's the one thing that we can focus on to help us as an industry go from where we currently are into a primary care physician? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Uh be confident. Confidence.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Confidence. One word answer. And by the way, I think you're right.

unknown 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

What if we all showed up like, yeah, I'm a doctor? Right. You know, I'm the doctor. I I've gone to school. I have the debt to prove it. All right. What's something a little bit more fun? What's a book or a movie or a show that you've watched recently that's that's uh either you just liked or has impacted you?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Uh let's see. I'm not a big uh not a big TV watcher, but um I would say, oh gosh, that's a real question. Um not even a reader, really. Yeah, that's fine. Any any podcast, any like anything you've consumed media-wise that has served you in any way. Well, I mean, I'm I'm definitely I'm a musical guy. I sing. Um, and there's a there's a new opportunity to have a morning of singing. And so I'm I'm a part of the this community that's I'm a I'm a Christian as well. Awesome. So a part of this this community that sends out a song a day, and so they send it at 7 a.m. It's a whole devo about a song, and then you sing with them every morning. It's been through on live so incredible. They send me a text and then they have their platform. It's almost it's kind of podcast-ish. It's very very tight. Everyone gets on and you all sing simultaneously. No, just it whenever you get on, it's a recording of them doing it together, and then you sing. Oh, that's so that's been a good one.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

You know, and there's so much value to singing. Uh that vibration stimulates the vagal nerve, which is the main driver for the parasympathetic. So it takes it forces us into a relaxed and recovery state. I think that's amazing, but especially because you're a Christian, that connection to God and helping you feel the spirit and wanting to move forward to be a better human being. What a wonderful combination. That's a great share. Where's someone in the world that you've been that you've loved, or somewhere you are excited to go one day?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Okay, so I do uh I do some nonprofit work in Africa. Where? So in Tanzania. Okay, so do I. Primarily right now.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

What's your company?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Uh it's called Zoe Hope International. Okay. Um, but it's a medical, it's a medical team, so I travel as a physical therapist with them, but also as a leadership developer. So we do uh right now, the the church that we're partnering with is called New Hope. Um, and it's in Kitumbene, which is just three hours out of Arusha in Tanzania. Uh, but we're totally revamping the an entire church campus for them from the ground up. There's just no opportunities in that town anymore. And so not only is it gonna be a church campus where the pastor can do his uh his church and his people uh leadering, uh, but also that he can run, he can run uh conferences and such. Um but anyway, we just did one out last year. I planted the first tree on the campus. Super incredible. Um and then I'm gonna bring out I'm also a beard uh ambassador for Live Bearded, Livebearded.com, go check them out. Um but uh they're gonna they're gonna provide, hopefully, and I'm gonna do a behind the beard series with them next month, but they're gonna provide an entire uh setup to make soaps, and we're gonna start an industry in that town for the first time where they're gonna make soaps and sell soaps with natural resources that they have in Kitumbene without outsourcing to Arusha, which is what's killing their economy in this town. Amazing. We have that project going on. Really excited to go back and see the progress on the on the campus. Uh they finished this big pavilion, they're gonna finish the lodge, the 14-room lodge that people can stay in. Uh, because previously there was nowhere to stay when you went to Kitumbene except for one eight-room motel. Wow. So it's just it's it's revitalization, it's revival, it's everything that we can hope it to be in one of the really small places of the earth that needs it.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

So uh beautiful. And for those of you who are listening, which is most of you, obviously, this guy has a beard. If you heard that whole beard thing, like it makes sense when you're watching it. He has a really full beard, and I am envious. I could never grow facial hair if I tried like that. You got it in there. Oh, this is like six weeks. See, I got like this little scrappy Scooby-doo thing going. Dude, okay, uh, final question.

Legacy, Love, And The Closing Charge

SPEAKER_01 23:31

What would you want your legacy? What would you want your kids when they're grown up and your grandkids who are watching this down the road and they see a younger version of you? What would you want them to know about your passion, your hope, or anything at all?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Yeah, the I mean, I've got a six and a five-year-old right now. Whoa. That's a good question, dude. Yeah. Um the world needs people that love people. And if we can get somebody to a place where they feel that love in a personal way, we've done the job that we're supposed to do. That world needs people who love people. In a way that they can understand and get better from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Paul, I love that. And I I want your descendants to know too, in the little time that I've met you, love is just something that emanates from you. And I think it comes from your belief in God and family. And I can't thank you enough for the great work you're doing in our industry as well as just the human being that you are.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Thanks. Thanks a lot, well. It's really, really good. Thank you. That was unexpected, man. I didn't think it was a good cry. We're talking about PT. What the heck?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

You know, I think we're just passionate. It's dude, if we don't have that, I love that you brought that. Because like if we if we're not doing that, then what are we doing? You know, and I think the more we leave with our heart, the better we are as leaders. And I've always said, Paul, the the leader, the best leader in any group is the the leader that loves the most. Look at Jesus. Yeah, you know, he loved more than anyone, and look what the impacting in the world that we have now. That's right. Okay, well, Rockstars, thank you so much for joining this very special edition. We're so grateful for Paul. We're so grateful for Pieran. Make sure you check them out. I'll have their company in the show notes if you need anything. But as always, as I leave you for our next episode, to lead with love and never give up.