43 - Stay Together For The Gays (Part II)

We’re back for part two of Isaac and Tyler’s interview with Adam, tackling the topic of divorce. They discuss the importance of therapy, both for individuals and couples, how family impacts divorce, and what’s next after it’s all done.

Join us on all major socials @nogaysinmontana for exclusive content!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

So what do you mean I see it? I want it, I got it. If you I'd like to say, if you would like to retract that. Retract that statement right now, or I'm posting your Costco photo. Retract that statement right now.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

What's the Costco photo?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

You've seen my Costco photo.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Oh, from your Costco card.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Yeah, it's the worst photo you could ever. And we are just gonna jump right into part two of Adam's episode and then wrap up with Ariel and Tyler. So let's get into it. I think this is probably one of the things that's different for everyone, but I remember when we kind of talked the last time, something I'd never heard of before. Like in our minds of how we think divorce works, it's like you hire a lawyer, they hire a lawyer, and then you go and you all sit at a table and you spat until you like get to resolution and then you sign paperwork. Yeah. That is how I to this day probably would describe the standard process of divorce. Yeah. But I feel like you also talked about this idea of like a common mediator.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Which is like a lawyer that works for both of you. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

And then like they have like collaborative divorce attorneys. Yeah. Who can call it collaborative? Yeah, collaborative. It sounds like something Gwyneth Paltrow invented. Yeah. A conscious uncoupling. It's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I just watched, she was just on Good Hang and she talks about the conscious uncoupling, just like this last week, and how much hate she received because of that. Because there were so many people that got divorced that were like, it felt like you told me I was doing something wrong because my divorce was tumultuous. And she was setting this like standard for like, actually, if you do divorce right, there actually shouldn't be any like conflict. And she wasn't saying that at all. She's like talking about her own situation, but she talks through on that episode about how much like hate she received from divorced people of how they like made her feel.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Well, those people just no one can no one can make you feel something. You feel something, yeah, and there's probably a reason behind it. But yeah, no, that's just I'm sure they're just like bitter from their divorces. Yeah. That's probably why they got divorced. Yeah. Right. Okay, so collaborative divorce attorney. They have collaborative divorce attorneys, but it's also really expensive to get attorneys to fight a matter. And like when like we decided, me and my ex decided that we're gonna try to not do attorneys, yeah. Like unless we have to. And so uh they also have mediation that you can do, but it's like a thousand bucks for three hours. So it's like really it's all these things are divorce is really expensive. Yeah, I think I've heard people say that before, but it's true. So our goal was to, and not everyone can be in this position, and sometimes we even aren't in this position, but we are trying to settle as much of the stuff outside of court as possible. And we want to get to a point where we can just hand a judge like exactly how we want everything split up, and then they can just make that order, and then three months later it'll be ready to go. Yeah. But it takes time to do that, right? Which is why we're not divorced yet. And, you know, it it is sometimes two steps forward, one step back in terms of finance stuff. But yeah, it's uh it's a super logistically complicated and like if you're not savvy in how legal things work, extremely daunting process to try to undertake yourself. Chat GPT can be somewhat helpful in some of the logistical. Hire your divorce attorney at Chat GPT and your therapist. Uh right. All a one-stop shop. Yeah. But yeah, it's it's uh there's a lot of different ways to do it. One of my former employers, he I he was one of the first few people I told. And so, because he also went through like a pretty intense divorce, they both lawyer up, and then it was like they took three or like they took like, I don't know, six months or something, and like they were like their lawyers were just going at it, like crazy, going for everything, like going for everything, going for the jugular. And then like one day he like called up his spouse and was like, we need to like fire our attorneys right now, like they're just dragging this on, yeah. Like, because they get paid for time, and so there's like an inherent, I think this is you know, I don't know, everyone loves to hate a lawyer, but my dad's an attorney, so I can't say that. But I don't know, they like there's an incentive for them almost to have like conflict in a divorce proceeding, yeah, because then it drags it out longer and then they get more hours, and like and so I don't want someone involved who has a financial incentive for there to be like discord between me and my ex. Yeah. And so our goal is to not use attorneys unless we really have to, yeah, and for as little time as possible for money and just philosophical reasons, yeah. So yeah, we're hoping not to. You can do it through mediation, uh, you can do it through a collaborative attorney who uh works with both of you, but we're trying to get as much of our like behind the scenes back of house financial stuff figured out before we before we bring in uh an expert who can help us actually do all the official legal paperwork and everything. So yeah. But everyone's story is different. I mean, yeah. Like I've I've heard people who do the attorney route and it's done in three months. Yeah. And uh, you know, they spend a ton of money doing it, but and then like there's people who are like, you know, oh, I'm still technically married, like even though we haven't been together for like five years.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Okay, so one other thing that I think immediately came to top of mind for us, and I think probably you as well, is just kind of like the stereotypes around the homosexual gay part of I hate that word. Sorry, homosexual? When's the last time you were using the word homosexual? I don't know why I said that homosexual. How has your homosexual divorce been? And how do you feel like that is different than heterosexual divorce? I feel myself turning red. What about the stereotypes of like the gay part of the divorce? And I know you touched on it when we were talking about like we fought so hard to be able to like legally get married.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

So is there parts of you that are like what are your thoughts on that? Or what were your thoughts going through the process?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Uh, there's like a like immediately it comes to mind like a Brandy Carlisle, my my my girly, yeah lyric in one of her songs that says something like giving up the fight, giving up the fight after no, giving up after fighting for the right.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

And it's kind of like, oh yeah, we fought so hard for this. But we just but the reality is we didn't fight so hard for marriage. Yeah. We fought so hard for equality. Yep. And part of that equality is like the downside of it, yeah, which is divorce. And so yeah, I d I think, yeah, I don't know, we like it didn't immediately, I wasn't like, oh, now I'm like a failure for all the gays. Yeah. Because I it's just so personal, you know. You kind of there's you got so much stuff to think about. It's almost like that other stuff kind of just has to take a back burner. Yeah. Because you're like you're mentally just I don't know, you can't take on the weight of the world as you also are taking on the weight of your life. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think part of marriage is divorce, like part of the right of marriage is also divorce. And so, you know, sometimes you can make it work, sometimes you can't, and that's a reality. I think there's like one of the things that uh like a stereotype in the gay community about gay divorce is around like non-monogamy and like like that causing divorce.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

And so me and my ex were non-monogamous. Yeah. And so I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, that's like that's why. That's that's why that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

And that's gay on gay crime.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Gay on gay crime, yeah. It's it's you know, say on it's straight on gay crime too. Like a lot of straight people are like, oh yeah, of course they got that. They're like, well, I did it in secret at least. Right. Yeah. But I think again, the reality is like it's that's not, you know, yes, there's probably some gay couples who like in the last throws of their marriage, like open it up.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Um it's like the stereotypical what they call hail mary of a relationship. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's two roads. First rate people, it goes to the right. Yeah. Let's have a kid. Let's have a kid. For gay people, it's open up the relationship. I also just feel like what you were talking about earlier, the whole the weight of the we fought so hard for this on your shoulders, to me, that's just like a non-negotiable, you cannot control the narrative. Like, that's a huge exercise, and I can't control the narrative. So if people are gonna think that or chalk it up to like, oh, well, it was gay marriage, so like inevitable, yeah. You can't.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Well, also, like, there's just so many people who have divorces, right? So it's like a glasshouse situation. Like, there's so many people, and so many people in my life, like literally all my siblings have been divorced. Like my parents have been divorced. Yeah, like even my my grandma who's passed away has had uh had a divorce. Like you know, this like it's so common now that it's like it almost wasn't even a factor, honestly. Yeah, like I no one really even I never felt pressure or or judgment around it being a gay thing. Yeah, because there's just so much divorce. Yeah. And also, like, I was joking with one of my friends about this, and I was like, oh, you know, maybe it's like the pandemic. Like the pandemic like caused us all to have like weird, contorted social and marital dynamics, and that like now, like as we're kind of like as we've exited the pandemic and we're in like a different phase of life, maybe that's why everyone's getting divorced. Because like it's like something's in the water right now amongst my friends. And he's like, Well, Adam, it's because you're middle-aged, and I was like, take that back. How dare you about me to say that? Why did you say that? I don't feel judged about anything, but now I feel judged. I'm in a vulnerable place and you went with my age, but I'm like, oh shit, yeah, I am almost 40. So this is maybe just my midlife crisis. Uh, I need to get like a uh like a convertible of some sort, yeah, little miata. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

When you said the pandemic, I was like, yes, the worst pandemic. It's because all these cases were like, we're fighting for marriage, we all have to get married, and then now it's like, okay, well, the commons of reality are happening, but no, you mean the pandemic. Yes, yeah, for sure. Like someone should be out there writing a thesis on that. Changing the way you look at life in the human experience. And being trapped in a box for months and months. It's like the real world with the heightened, extreme version of having kids where it's something's forcing you together and it's like compressed to this hard thing. Yeah. And then you come out and you're like, whoo.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, there's like a little bit of a release thing. I don't know. That's what I thought. But then I was like, oh yeah, we're also like kind of approaching middle age. So like this is kind of the time. I you it's hard to think of yourself as like getting old.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Like this is the age when like our parents' friends were getting divorced and stuff, too.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

And I was like, they were 50, but they were like 32, probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

I'm like still babysitter age. Yeah, I'm not old. Like, what?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Do you know or find people that are gay and have gotten divorced or getting divorced that were together for 10, like married for 10, together 15 years?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Because that's a lot of long-term gay couples right now. Uh, like, I don't know if it's like a chicken or an egg thing. Like, do I find more people who are in that situation because of my situation? Yeah. Yeah. Or is it just happening more? I think maybe a little bit of both. Yeah. But yeah, there's like people, there's a ton of people out there who've had really long, long-term gay relationships. I was at a party a couple weeks ago and I just like randomly connected with two guys who had both like been in like 10 plus year like gay relationships that had ended.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

And we just had like a like a media bond because we're like, oh my gosh, yeah, like here's and then they're like, oh yeah, that's so typical. And like, it's nice to at least have like a cohort of people who are kind of going through the same thing. And then like amongst my like close friend group, uh, also a lot of breakups and big life life changes for other people in the group as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

And so a lot of people, a lot of support. Yeah. And a lot of like, oh my god, you're going through that. I went through that too. Here's what I did that really helped. Like, I, you know, maybe that would help you, or yeah, it's just it's nice to be going through something where there's a lot of support.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Because I feel like a part where I have to check myself, honestly, like self-critically, is I'll meet people or see people that are married and then get divorced, but they were married and to like they were married for like a year or two.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

And in my mind, I'm like, which maybe this isn't even like a gay thing. It's like, well, you probably maybe you got married really fast. Yeah. And that's like where my mind goes, where I'm like, oh, they were together for a year, then they got engaged, and they got married, then they got divorced, yeah, and then they're just kind of like, like, whoo, wasn't that crazy? You know? Yeah. Where I think you didn't realize you didn't like marriage, so you got divorced. Yeah. You were the first person that I I think have met in a gay relationship that was together for like a long period of time. My experience with divorce up until that, like gay divorce up until that were people that were like fast burns. Yeah, fast burns. Yeah. One thing. So going back to the non-monogamy thing, one of the things, Adam, I feel like you're very insightful. That's why I think we were all like very fast friends because you really can like talk to you about like anything. Like a little bit, yeah. Jeez. Oh, I am single, so yeah. I don't know if you heard, but uh that's kind of one of the like the really insightful things you talked about was the way that non-monogamy brings up independent individual insecurities that has nothing to do with the type of relationship, but it just kind of brings up these issues for people individually. Yeah. In like a therapeutic way.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah. Which can be really nice if you're able to work through those things, or it can be like really traumatic if you're not.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah. I mean, like it kind of like exposes. I think a lot of people use monogamy as like a a scaffolding upon which to build like security in their in their marriage. And when you don't have that scaffolding, you kind of have to then like go deeper, yep, and go to like what actually makes me feel secure in my relationship, other than like this like structure of monogamy. Yeah. Like, is it like, you know, what kind of engagement is my like partner in that makes me feel comfortable and not comfortable? And why? Why does that make me feel not comfortable? Why does that make me feel comfortable? Like these are questions that just don't have to get asked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Like a forced root cause exercise.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah. And I and it brings up like, you know, I mentioned attachment styles earlier, but like if you have like if you're not securely attached, uh, like you're going to have issues around feeling abandoned in a non-monogamous situation. Right. And like you have to work through those or like your your situation might not work. Yeah. It forces things.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah. It forces you to work through with your partner.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

These issues and insecurities or just like whatever they are, things that probably monogamous couples have all those same insecurities and issues, but never have this like platform or thing, a catalyst. They don't have a catalyst that like drives them to work through those insecurities and the way that they operate as a partnership.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah. And I mean, some people like are in a position where they can have those discussions in their relationship. Yeah. It's just really rare, I feel like. If you aren't, if you're monogamous and you're having those conversations, even like I mean, uh the a basic thing, like, do you find that person attractive? Yeah. Like most couples who never talk about it. Never talk about that. You know, but it's a reality. Like everyone finds other people attractive. It's like there's not a it's not a oh, I don't have eyes for them. Like, I only have eyes for you. It's like I roll.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Not true. Yeah. But me looking at Isaac, but my eyes are one eye. To the right of Isaac. That's what sunglasses are for. Were you looking at me at Chrome across the part? No, actually the guy sitting behind you. So attractive. Thank you. Oh, funny. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like uh with some of the differences between like how is gay divorce different than straight divorce, and how is it like very much of end diagram where most of it overlaps? I think as you talked about, like I had no regret with my marriage, and I I felt like I didn't spend, I wasn't wasting time and I wasn't like, oh my God, I drug it on so long. My hypothesis is that's probably more prevalent in gay relationships and gay divorce for a number of reasons. Less likely to have children, and we're just like a lot more intentional, I feel like, and individualistic in that sense, but maybe not. But I'm curious on what your thoughts are. I just feel like I know people who got divorced that like we were married 20 years, 25 years, and I should have done it 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, I think sometimes this is around like the like actual wedding and stuff, but some but like you can kind of as if you're gay, you can kind of just make up what you there's no rules. There's no rules because like you've already I don't know what's gonna be. You took down the scaffolding, like you don't have the scaffolding for everything. You crossed that bridge already. Yep. And so like you get to kind of throw out the playbook, yeah. And you gotta do what you want to do. Yep. And you don't have to like exactly be guided by like the larger structures of society, societal rules and right.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

I think, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think we have to justify, like, even in my own my own family example, I feel like there's a sense of me needing to justify what I do or what I decide less, just in general, yeah, for my siblings. Yeah. Just based on that, which is kind of wrong, right? But inherently. I don't know. I would I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, I like having that as a gay because it's like maybe we get a this is a benefit for us. Yeah, yeah. Like I like maybe of the few things that we like have a leg up on, like maybe this is the thing that like is nice. Like we are we are, I think hot take, we are freer. So much more free.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Fully agree. Not pressured to have kids. Yeah, not pressured to get married quickly. Yeah, and I'm like like there's no that all every yeah, that just doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah, my like I don't know. Every time like my mom brings up kids with me, I'm like, do you have $250,000 to give me? Let me write it down. Let me write it down for it.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Extremely intentional and it will be extremely costly. So we will get back to you.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, yep. But yeah, also like people just don't expect it of you as much or at all. Yeah. And so you kind of get to just pave your own way. But that's also that that's a double-edged sword because you also are a little bit pathfinding. Your whole life is like a little bit like unknown whacking down bushes, making your own little trail. Yep. And that can be hard because you don't really have like there's yeah, sure, there's books about non-monogamy and stuff like that, but like blueprint, like type of thing. It's not like baked in like it is to monogamy and like how we all learn about monogamy, like our whole entire lives. Like there's a gazillion different relationship books about how to make monogamy work. Right. But yeah, I think uh, you know, there's challenges to being on the front edge of freedom.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah. I think we just get the opportunity to move slower and move with intention on every single life decision. Yeah. And not that every gay couple does this and moves with that intention. I'm sure people were like, I just felt like I had to get married, so I did. Yeah, you know, but I think like we just like approach everything with intention. Everything, like there's no like, well, we just weren't really wearing protection and we were married, so now we're parents. Like, which is like how every person became a parent that I know of. It's like we were like, we knew we were gonna have kids at some point. We weren't really it what you weren't an accident, but you weren't like we weren't trying, but it's just like there's also all of a sudden we were parents in nine months. You know what I mean? Like everything for us that we have to do is intentional and really thought out, probably to a detriment. I think we overthink probably so many things, but speak for yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

I definitely am speaking very much for myself, but like we also like don't have a biological clock.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

No biological clock.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

I know I've heard from snowpone women that are like, you know, that like there's like a shot clock almost on getting married because you're like, oh, I need X amount of time to be married before I have kids. And then it's like, so yeah, and like there's not even, I think, pressure to get married really in the gay community amongst gays. Yep. Like I, you know, I have friends who waited like 10 years to get married. Yeah. Like, and yeah, so I I don't know. There's uh I think there is a lot more intentionality that goes into a gay relationship. And also, like, marriage is not a pinnacle in the gay community. Yeah, like it is in the straight community. Yeah, it's something that happens very frequently, but it's not like It's everyone's goal. Exactly. And it's not an expectation that it's everyone's goal. Yep. And so you like if you want to get married, you're probably going to seek out someone who also wants to get married. Yeah. And there's no like tug of war of like, should we get married? Should we not get married? I know sometimes that happens, that dynamic happens with straight couples. Yep. Like, you know, the guy's like, oh, I don't know if I want to get married. Yeah. Yeah. And the girl's like, oh, I've been, I've got a book full of wedding gowns picked out already. So for 50 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah. So I think different than like your standard straight couple, it's like, here's the guy's friends, here's all the girls and her friends, and like bachelor, bachelorette party. It's it's so segmented with friend groups, right? And like obviously we're a little bit more modernized now, but in I think gay friend groups and communities, it's very much like back to that like unit. Like we are a very immersed with the same friend group. How have you navigated that with your ex? And has that been like a super big challenge? Or like there's probably this idea in our head of like the division of the friend group. What happens?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah. There's so if it were just up to me, like there would be no change, there would have been no changes amongst my friend group. But my ex definitely has like a different take on like and like the and this is understandable, like uh like physical proximity for us isn't always like uh great. Yeah. Like and so it changes like the dynamic of a group setting. Yeah. Uh and so like in some ways, like we have to almost divide some social events, yeah, because like it's hard for us to be together for an extended amount of time. Especially like, I don't know, laughing and having fun like around each other feels weird. Yep. And so yeah, we've had to like do like I'll come to the first half of this birthday party, and you can come to the second half of this birthday party. If it were up to me, I probably would like I would be fine with like essentially like becoming friends with my ex. But I I know that's a little bit more difficult for him and different for everyone. But I think there's also a lot of at least in the gay community, I don't think it's the same with lesbians, but I'm friends with a lot of my exes. Yeah. And so because like we have a limited amount of gay people we can be friends with, right? Like in the world, the like in our in our local circle of gays. Yep. And so like the overlap is usually gonna be there amongst friend circles. And then the other thing is like I would never so we had a couple boyfriends during our marriage, like we were in two thruples, yeah. Do the math on that, two thruples. But we, you know, we are you're asking your friends to like invite them into your friend circle, essential, essentially. And so expecting them to then like be gone from your friend circle immediately upon you guys like exiting the relationship, I don't think is really a fair thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

And but yeah, I think it's definitely more complicated because there is so much more overlap. And I think it's complicated for even for I probably for straight people, because like you might have couple friends where, like, yeah, sure, like the guy is friends with the guy and the girl's friends with the girl, but you're also like when that girl goes and talks to her girlfriend about all of the bad things that her ex did or is doing, or you know, how she's feeling about everything, and then she that girl she confided in goes and talks to her husband, yeah. And now they're like having conversations about the end of the marriage, like of their friend's marriage, and they may be getting completely different perspectives, and then that can drive like a wedge even between other couples. Yeah, yeah. And so it can be hard for other couples to navigate, yeah, like when like even when no one's asking to pick sides, yeah, like just hearing different perspectives. And I would say, like, if I have any advice to give people who are like who have friends who are going through divorces, it's like just try to be supportive without offering like advice.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Because that's where like it can come into a territory where you're kind of having to pick sides. Yeah, like if you just listen and you like give affirmations, like that sounds really hard. Like, like, oh my god, that must be so difficult. Like you don't have to take sides, yeah. And it's probably mentally better for you if you don't, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, yeah. Do you think the future of your relationship with your ex is that's a possibility? Like in five years, do you think you'll be able to like be in the same room and laugh and that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah. The day of coordinator for our wedding was uh my ex's ex fiance. So yeah, right. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

You'll have to do a diagram for the yeah, yeah, oh no, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yeah, no, I got it right away. So yeah, I I think it's possible. It'll be it'll have to be conscious and will need to be like time. Time is like time is a thing. Yeah, it heals all wounds, dynamic. Not true, but yeah, it is generally true, I think. So I would hope so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah. What would you tell someone that's like afraid to end their relationship? Or they're like in that like probably the hardest part. Yeah. I can't, I can't say it's the hardest part, but you know what I mean? Like one of the most challenging things of that, like, should I, shouldn't I? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah. There's a point in my relationship that I just realized that if I stayed any longer, I would be giving up too much of myself. Yeah. And that's like, I think a very personal thing that people can come to, like a conclusion that they can come to or not come to, like, on their own. Yeah. About like if this is something that you're sacrificing too much. Or, you know, it's broken and has been broken for a while and it's not working. Like, generally speaking, like, it's very difficult for people to change.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

And like, yes, you can try to make it work, and I encourage people to try to make it work, but at the same time, like, I don't know, I there was a point at the end of the relationship where I kind of just like looked at myself in the mirror and I'm like looking at the wrinkles that I have and like the gray hairs that are coming, and like I'm like, I'm I'm not getting any younger. Yeah, I still have a lot of life to live. Right. Like, do is this is do I want to be in this struggle for you know more time? Do I want to invest more time in this? I don't know. It's just it's really the it's really daunting to think about what happens next. Yeah. I would I would just recommend that people try not to think about that as much as like, are you happy now now? Yeah. And is it do you have hope that you'll be happy in the future if you aren't right now? Right. And I at some point I just lost hope that I would be happy in my relationship. Yeah. And that's like you I it's hard, it's impossible to come back from that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah. Yeah. That's really insightful. I don't think it's like yeah, going back and forth between like the the future thought and then the present, but trying to focus on the present in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there's kind of it kind of this uh when you think back to like the marriage of it all, I think one thing that people aren't prepared for when they think like you just get married and that's the pinnacle. I feel like people don't have that conversation with themselves. So being like, I have to be willing to grow with you and know, and I have to be okay with the unknown that like I don't know what 45-year-old Tyler is gonna be like.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

And am I excited about the prospect? I think, and if the answer is yes, and continuing to like have that like growth together, that's completely different. And that's part of the excitement and like fulfillment of being married, is you're just you're not the same people that got married when you were 25. That when you're whatever period down the line, like you have to be willing to like grow and change. But I think you you brought up a really good point too of like what is not changeable and what is something in my partner that is like this is who they are. Yeah. And I have to have the hard reality with myself of like, can I embrace and accept that?

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Or is it so limiting to my own happiness that I have to veer a different direction?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

That is a hundred percent it. Yeah. Yeah. Are you because like that's uh I think so many people think, and I think I've heard like like Esther Perel talk about this, but so many people talk about like changing their partner, yeah, and then everything will be okay in the marriage.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Like that doesn't work, right? Yeah, like the fundamental core of someone's like being and who they are is yeah, it's I think like shiftable. Yeah, I don't know if you can foundationally change a person.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

It's pretty much the same cake, but maybe with slightly different frosting. Exactly. Yeah, but like that structure is there already, like it was there when they were like it baked in, like since they were five years old, probably.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yeah, but I think you even have to be okay and accept the fact that they are going to be different. Yep. But you have to also at the same time recognize that you don't know what that different looks like. Yep. Exactly. Right? Like you should expect almost expect them to change be different, vastly different person. Yeah. But you also have to be okay with that. You have no idea what that what they're gonna be. Yeah. How they're gonna change or how they're gonna grow. And I remember writing our vows too, and like, this is gonna we're just like realists in this way of being like, I'm not gonna say in my vows that like I promise you forever, because I can't do that. Like, I don't know who you will be at this age, and I don't know who I will be. Yeah. But and not in a way of like it's likely that this could happen. It's just like I think it's a real way to set up your marriage for success, to be like, we are excited about the intent to stay together forever and to grow with each other, but there is a sense of reality of being that might not happen. Per no one's fault, but just like that's the human experience. Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

And statistically, and statistically, yeah, don't put it and statistically in your mouth. And statistically.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Statistically, this could happen. What about do you have a song of your divorce era? Okay. This is something very personal and exciting to me. Yeah. What's gotten you through it? So is it anything besides Kelly Clarkson's happier than ever?

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Oh my god. Okay, so that's so funny that you mentioned Kelly Clarkson. So I like asked a friend, I was like, because you know, you gotta kind of like workshop this with your friends.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

You can tell us with Chat GPT what this is.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Oh no, real friends, real people. This is a good person. Maybe Chat GPT. You would have done a better job. But uh, my friend like sent me his breakup playlist, and it was like all Kelly Clarkson. Clarkson whole album. And I was like, She's good at it. And I was like, oh, this is just not my speed. Yeah. And I don't know. We have very we have some differing. I am the Katie Perry hater that's been mentioned. We've talked about it. Yeah, we've talked about it. You're safe. Remember when I said someone was in my DM? Yeah, it was it was me and the DMs. Surprise. Yeah. Uh but yeah, so there was like a song that just kind of like it's so incredibly sad. And I love like a sad song already. Me too. But Ethel Kane has a song called House in Nebraska. Oh my god, Adam. That is like it's so good. It's the best saddest of sad songs, and it's about like losing a love and like having like your it's a little bit okay. So it was hard to find good songs that I could a hundred percent relate to because like most of them are about being left and not leaving. Like Adele had some good ones about leaving. Thank you, Adele. Thank you, Adele, for leaving, uh, being the lever.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

And then there's uh a song by Olivia Dean. Yeah. That is coming up everywhere. Uh like something about like the one you love, and it's about like partners who make their partners like feel small, yeah. Like almost like a caged bird kind of situation. Um get out of here. And it's like sorry, the divorce is happening live.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

As if I had a cage big enough. Is that that? No.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

But yeah, no, it's uh it's it in the lyric is something like, oh gosh, like how can you make me feel how could you do that to how could you do that to a friend, let alone the one you love? Yeah, like make someone feel small. Um, and I that just like was really painfully uh relatable to me. And so yeah, but a bunch of sad music. Yeah, Taylor Swift's? No, because like I feel like hers are all like jilted like lover songs, not like I left, like I made the responsible adult decision to leave. It's like, why did this guy screw me over? Fair, fair. Have you listened to folklore? Uh oh I listened to folklore.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

But like My Tears Ricochet.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Am I alive and gay? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

The song, the song My Tears Ricochet is like that is like the epitome of me of like the perfect divorce song. It's not a breakup song, it is like a 15-year, 20-year, 30-year relationship. Yeah, which hasn't been in. So right. She really knows Katy Perry was fine, Adam, however. No, I like House in Nebraska. That's a good one. It is funny. He loves Ethel Kane. Okay, I was gonna say, this is where you two can make up. That's a good little cane.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

And it's like the piano, like the notes in it, just like fuck it. I don't know. Every time I I'm like, I have a little bit of a hard time just like crying like automatically, like when I'm sad. And but like sometimes it just takes like listening to like a sad song to just unlock it. I love a sad song. Yeah, love sad songs. I already loved sad songs, so I was like, you know, I'm surprised I didn't like pre-make a divorce playlist like far in advance of everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

I think it's very much like a give me a song that even though I haven't been through this experience, I want to go through it because feel it. It's I feel it so deeply. Yeah, specifically Kelly Clarkson's happier than ever. I'm like, Tyler, I just want to divorce you like six weeks. I just seem to like feel the full force of this. And that's not the first time. My Cheers Ricochet. Yep, that one too. I was hoping that like my divorce playlist.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah, I was hoping that like the marriage would have ended in December, so I could like back to December could have been on the bad planning. It was May. Yeah, shoot, shoot, can't all memorial today. Yeah, for never forget.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah. What's next for you or what's currently happening?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

I'm in a like boundary setting, boundary resetting phase of my life. With everyone. With just finding out where my own boundaries are about like what is important to me and what isn't important to me. Because like I'm very, I very much like want my next relationship or relationships to like I want to enter that from a place of like really knowing myself, yeah, and what I want out of that relationship so that I can like advocate for that and so that I can find someone who I know is gonna be like a good fit for me. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I'm I'm kind of rediscovering where my own boundaries are outside of being in a couple.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah. Yeah. Um I mean, you haven't operated as a like a single individual.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Right. Like ever. Like I'm living for the first time by myself. Yeah. Since like I've I spent like a month by myself in college, but other than that, I haven't ever lived by myself. Right. So just discovering like who I am, what I want, so that I can bring that to a relationship instead of like forming that in a relationship, yeah, and maybe not having those things be matched up. Yeah. And uh I'm not like a dating dating, I'm definitely not ready to be in a relationship. I'm also not currently even divorced. So um, but yeah, timelines. Right. I don't know. Yeah. Uh paperwork. Paperwork, legal schmeagle. But yeah, I don't know. I think expanding my group of friends is something that I want to do right now. And yeah, just just kind of finding out what I want in life again, yeah, all over again.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah. Does it feel free or daunting or both?

SPEAKER_00 38:33

It mostly feels free. Yeah. I'm a little bit I I'm not big on like uh on like I don't know, like I'm an Aquarius, but I think that's a thing for Aquarius. Like we're independent kind of like logical. You're back to the bushwhacking. But yeah, I'm I'm in like a like an independent boundary setting phase, finding my own boundaries, what's important to me. And also I don't know what my next relationship structure is actually gonna look like. That's like, do I, you know, do I immediately want to go into a situation where I'm dating someone but also open or non-monogamous in some capacity, or poly. Do I want to go straight? Yeah, do I want to go find a woman to fall in love with and have children with? Or it's consideration. Yeah, always a fallback. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

As I said, as I said. Things don't work out when I'm 60. Yeah. Bushwhacking.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah. But uh yeah, I think it's just finding out new stuff about what I want out of life.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

I like the boundary, the boundary setting part. Because again, like you were 20.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

And then you went through this whole growth period of learning things about yourself with a whole added layer of another person involved. Yeah. The whole time.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

And sometimes two other people are in relationships. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Well, you can just try other things. Yeah. Open on your own terms. Yep. What's a red flag that you're very uh what's the word? Wary. Aware of. Yes. What's a red flag you're very aware of in your next relationship to be on the watch lookout for?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Okay, this is like a deep one.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

You can say they like Katy Perry. That's definitely that's at least not a flag. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

At least. Especially after she went to space. We're working on the rebrand. I would say that emotional regulation is something that's super important for someone to have and for someone to be able to do that internally. I'm gonna look this up. Emotional recognition. What is emotional? I wasn't gonna look at that. So sometimes like people like can't regulate their emotions internally. So they've they'll turn them outward and regulate them like through other people or through actions that they're doing. Like I would like to find someone who this is, I guess, like a green flag, but it's both. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it's green, a self-soother. Yeah, self-soothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Did you just Google that?

unknown 41:00

No.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

No, I'm I'm actually talking to chat GPT right now.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

I'm like, do you know Adam? Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's all up there. When they eventually monetize my life, I don't know. But yeah, I think uh someone who can like be in conflict with you and like just like be vulnerable in conflict is something like a huge green flag for me right now. Yeah. So like someone who can talk through a complex and complicated thing with me is like, is like, whoa, okay. That feels really good. Like you can actually like go through like not like a fight, but like a disagreement with someone and actually feel closer to them on the other side. Like that's a real big green flag for me. That someone that can do that who doesn't like run away or ostrich or like have a you know explosion, or yeah. Is ostrich like like hide your head in the sand? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

I didn't know if it was that or if it was like puffing up with feathers.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Oh, I think that's that's a peacock.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Oh, duh, duh. No, I'm kidding. I think they can also do that to research on birds. Do you feel younger or like do you feel like you're in a phase now? Things of like, I don't know, we've never dated, we never dated in like a normal way because we were like best friends first. And also that was 20 pre-2015, and now we're in this era of dating. What do you even do? Like, I don't know, think about it. Like in terms of dating? Yeah, or just like hanging out with people that are like, do you feel like you're like, I want to go out on a Friday night or I want to go, you know what I mean? Like, do you feel like we're very much in this phase of like the thought of leaving the house after seven is absurd?

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Love that phase. Absurd.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

You know? Yeah. And so, but now with this whole kind of new singleness, are you like, I want to get my friends and I want to go out.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Yeah. Well, I mean, like, most of my friends are still like somewhat coupled up. So there's that dynamic. But I'm also a little bit of a homebody. Yeah. These are the things that I'm kind of finding out, right? Like, do I want to go out on a Friday night? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

What would I be wanting to do if I was just by myself and have my own decision making? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah. No, I I think uh there's definitely a a lot of, yeah, I don't know. I I I have gone out a lot with friends, and it's fun. But also, like, I'm just I need social recovery. Yeah. Um, I don't know. We also dated while we were married. And so, like, you know, I I imagine that if I had like like grinder was barely even a thing when we got together. It was like where you how you met up real stranger in a van kind of situation we needed is still kind of that, but like less so. Um, but like, yeah, like we it was Adam for Adam and like uh gay.com is like how you talk to another gay.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

It is a real site, yeah. It's a real thing. Something about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

I never know Adam for Adam, that's funny. It was especially yeah, coincidental. Me? Yeah, me, for me. Yeah, but yeah, I so like I didn't like if I had gone fifteen years without like being at least a little bit in the dating pool, it would have been so daunting.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah, like it

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Wasn't really like that for me. Wasn't like it wasn't like how do I even do that?

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Over a decade that you never like talk to someone in that capacity. Yeah. Has anybody come out of the woodwork? Being in in a way in a way to be excited. Yeah. I've just been waiting for this. I just heard I just heard Adam is fully available. They're like completely an expect, or like all of a sudden it's like ping, bing, ping, ping, ping, bing, ping, ping.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Uh no, not really.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

But I think until now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

I mean, hey, I'll tell you, uh, yeah. I think again, uh being in an monogamous situation, that was always like a little bit on the table. Like it obviously took more negotiation and discussion, like with me and my ex, like when like that kind of engagement happened, but I think mostly not.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we're pretty much to the end of the questions we have. Adam, is there anything you felt like you wanted to cover or talk about, or questions that you thought of, or anything that you feel like we haven't touched on?

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Okay. So, like, one of the best things that I guess I'll just say if people are going through divorce and going through breakups and stuff, is like you gotta like give yourself a ton of grace. Yeah. And I I I almost hate like religious E words like that now. Like I hate when people say, like, I struggle with something because I'm like, oh God, I heard that so much in church. Yeah. But yeah, like give yourself grace if you just do one thing during the day, like you do all your laundry or something. Yeah. Like, I don't know, just like take it easy on yourself. Yeah. Like you're going through something really big, yep, like fundamentally life-changing. And like you should just cut yourself some slack. Yeah. Like a lot of people are like, oh God, why haven't I done this? And why am I not here yet? And like it's just a really complicated, really hard thing. And like if you can give yourself some grace, it like, it just like weirdly takes the pressure off. All you have to do is like tell yourself like it's okay that you're feeling this way today. Yeah. Or that you don't want to really do anything, or like, you know, that you're that it's been like too many months since you felt a certain way. Like just like take it easy on yourself. Um, it's been like a really great and then like get a therapist. Like, yeah, like you really need one. Right. This is so complicated. Yeah. And like talk to your friends about, you know, if they have therapists, and yeah, they their therapists can recommend therapists, and yeah, there's like so many people do, and so many people don't talk about it. Yeah. And then like rely on your friends. Yeah. Like ask people, like it's uncomfortable to like ask for help, but like it's necessary sometimes. Like like and people really step up when you actually ask for help, uh, they really step up. And so, yeah, I would say that's something that I've I've really leaned on, and it was very hard for me, especially right after the split. Like, how do I ask for stuff that I need? Yes, is something that was very uncomfortable for me. So, but it's gotten easier and easier, and like it's actually really a good opportunity for you to like grow your relationships with your friends and your support network. It feels really good for them to support you, like from their perspective, usually. Fulfilling. Yeah. Yeah. And then from your perspective, it feels great to be supported. So yeah. Like kind of like a win-win most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah. Damn. Way to end Adam with even more great, insightful advice. Yeah. This has all been awesome. Thank you so much for thank you so much for being willing to come on probably one of the more complex topics we've talked about. I think there's ones that are straightforward, but this is such like an ambiguous, nuanced, complex piece of the human experience. And for you to be willing to like come on and talk through in like a very candid way. Like it's just it's it's been great. So the gay experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Yeah. Yeah. Glad we could make divorce fun today.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah, yeah. Fun divorce. Uh and you're a listener that's now on it. That's fun. Yep. Where can people find you, or do you want people to find you?

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Oh, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Like people usually are like, here's my Instagram, here's my dating profile, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Yeah, I mean, I'm on Instagram most of the time. I hate text messages. Don't text me. They're like the new emails to me. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

We've been having this discussion all week. Experiencing notification fatigue.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Well, it's only fatigue if you have multiple places you're getting notifications and you consolidate it all on Instagram. Yeah. Well, mine is more like fucking.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

I pick up my phone. I went for two hours or yeah, sorry. Yeah. We'll talk about this later. Same myself. Yeah. But again, thank you so much for coming on, Adam. Of course. Um, super fun. It was great just like because I think about like how we met and then just getting to know you. Like, you really are just like a super insightful, fun, great person. So thank you. Yeah. Now we're appreciating. And now we're neighbors. And now we're neighbors. Oh, yeah. We forgot to say the most exciting part is like through all of this, you've obviously moved into White Center.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

And so technically I'm in Seattle, okay. So you are. We're in Seattle, though the border goes right there. It's actually whoever's the farthest, it's like your distance to Lumberyard is probably actually what classifies you in White Center or not. So you might be closer than us. How are you liking it? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Uh I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I spent Christmas by myself this year, which was a totally new experience. But I want to try to feel comfortable being by myself. Yeah. And so yeah, it's so fun. Um I love living by myself. It's very nice. I didn't think that I'd love it as much as I do. Yeah. Ooh, I see that maybe this, maybe this might be problematic. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Like I live by myself for three years and I'm like, it's the best. Yeah. I love living with you. But also living by yourself is gonna be gone for 10 days. I'm like, ooh. Yeah. Yeah. We get these little moments of like living by ourselves. I love it. Yeah. So favorite local spots any at?

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Well, I just love that I'm a little bit closer to a taco time. Oh, yeah. I love taco time. Uh, and then uh fresh flowers, fresh flowers, fresh flowers. Pastries are great, and then rock burger.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yep, it's great. And they've got so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah, they've got so much selection. Uh great ranch, great hours. Open late. Yeah, very late. 24 hours, isn't it? I think it is fully now. Yeah, they do breakfast there too. Oh yeah. But I their breakfast isn't great. Yeah. But the uh like their chicken, their crunchy chickens like uh burger is like so good. Yeah, uh dangerous. Living on Vashon, like you get a limited, yeah. You have like five good restaurants. Yeah, it's like you have to cycle through those five constantly. And they have like the best Thai food in the world if anyone wants to. No, probably not in the world, in Washington. Yeah, probably Thailand has better Thai food. Yeah, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Yeah. Do you ever go? I've always wanted to go to the little what's the two-finger slowing?

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Oh, yeah. No, I'm not a horror movie person. What okay, what is it though? It's like a horror movie themed bar.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

We gotta go in. I gotta check it out. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Like we'd have to like goth it up to go in. Yeah. Go in with like like black clothes. Does emo?

SPEAKER_01 50:57

I didn't know that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

What? Is it email themed? Emo. Yeah, emo, maybe. Oh, yeah. I can go full punk rock for one night. Yeah, but we'd have to be like definitely more alt.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

We could do it. Pierce your eyebrow, but you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Oh, I always wanted to so bad.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

What about Cambar?

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Oh, I love Cambar. Cambar's the best bar. Favorite bar. Oh my gosh. It's the best. Love it. It's in the best. It's so good. It's such a, but it's terrible. No one should go there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

In the summer, too, the whole back patio. It's great. Yeah. Uh maybe you haven't been back there yet. I have.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

They're yeah, they have it. It's heated during the winter. Um, but they have great cocktails and their food is excellent. It's so good. Weirdly, like I often sometimes I get coleslaw. Yeah. Like, but it's like, oh, because I just feel guilty getting french fries. Yeah. Like their coleslaw is actually.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

It's like elevated. It's bar food technically because it's a bar, but it's like elevated bar food.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Elevated bar food and the vibe in there is so good.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

It's like the rumor requirement. Every time I've been there, it's been super busy.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

But there is always one table open. Yeah. And you can always sit down every single time. But you like I've never had a wait. It's just like, it's like another table opens up magically and it's like, whoop, here's your spot. Yeah. And you'll go in with like eight people.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Boom.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

And you like from the outside, you would never, you would never guess that it's a cool bar to get to.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Very unassuming.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Yeah. And like everyone I've brought there, like all my friends are like, oh my God, how have we never been here before? I'm like, because it's like a dive bar. Yeah. Like it's just a good dive bar. Like really, really quality good dive bar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

I'm on my hunt for like White Center local merch. And the hardest one is I can't get Cambar because they're always out of the shirts. Because they must order them like once a year.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Really?

SPEAKER_01 52:33

So they're always out. So Tyler, like every Christmas, birthday, whatever it is, he like always stops by to see if they have a shirt. I'm a medium, if anyone cambar, if you're out there. Sponsored by Cambar. Yeah. But, anyways, again, thank you so much. Yeah. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. Cool. All right. That's it. Bye. Okay. Well, that's a wrap on the two-part of Adam's episode. Ariel, what'd you think? That was incredible.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

I'm just like first take, so happily surprised by how open and vulnerable Adam was with us. I wasn't necessarily expecting that. And I just want to say thank you, Adam. Like that was such a real look into your real life happening right now. And what a privilege to just hear your story in that way.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yeah, very insightful. Very insightful. Just like very real about the good of not the good of it, but like the like, here's what people don't expect. Here's what, yes, this is exactly what people expect.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

It's felt very realistic.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Yeah. It was just really um good. And it's just so insightful and wise. Going along with the openness, I I came away from it really feeling like we were having a conversation with a friend, not like he was like he was open. He wasn't holding anything back because it was being recorded or it was getting put out there. Like it very much was just like realistic.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

And like we were having a conversation, not that we were trying to get information via inner. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I I that you're content farming him.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

I appreciate like the openness and the and the dialogue around it because he's just like I heart rate through I was like, wow, he's like really just being open about it and vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

You can tell he's a one, a therapized human, and I mean that in like the highest of compliments. Yeah. And two, he kind of talks about in the episode of like, you can't control the narrative with the type of thing. You're just gonna have to tell it like it is and how you're feeling it in the moment, and that's gonna come across. Because if you try to control the narrative, it's gonna get weird. You're not gonna be able to connect with friends, the story's gonna get funky, you're not actually gonna benefit from the conversation and the reaching out for help. Yeah. And he just I think he got rid of that idea pretty early on, he was saying.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Yeah, and like he said, he's like eventually the just like the truth kind of comes to the top, anyways. So no, it was really good. And it's like it's tough to do because I feel like from a this type of podcast, it's hard to like the things that we want to talk about can often feel like you're exploiting someone's like experience. Yeah, but at the same time, we want to like bring to light these very, very real human things for all people.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

And then obviously through that like queer lens of how it's either the same or different or whatever. Um, and it's just I feel like it's not something that is talked about or hasn't been yet.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

I'm sure it's talked about in pockets, but um no, I haven't dug that deep into it.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yeah. We're also um like we know people that have been in queer relationships that have gotten divorced, but not I don't necessarily think we at this point yet have been as close like to Adam as we are to Adam to have discussion around it about like details, how things worked, how you felt about it, how you know, how you processed it. All the all the people that we know that have gone through the similar situation or same situation have been like one degree further where you wouldn't ask them personal questions, right? Yeah, no, I thought it was really it was good. It was one of my favorite interviews we've done. Just it's I like tackling like tough topics like that. And I feel like Adam was so good at just being like very realistic, very insightful, but also just like real human, his own experience. So again, huge thank you.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Huge thank you. And how interesting too, another thing that surprised me is just the Adam's connection to politics and yeah, he's very like motivated politically, which is very connection to um lobbying and trying to pass, you know, marriage equality and kind of that perspective he talked about at the beginning. Yeah. And then with those like very valid questions you asked about like, okay, well, what about gay divorce? Do you feel like you're what did you say?

SPEAKER_01 56:05

Um, I think I said something along the lines of you think like you're feeding the narrative.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Or there's this idea of like a narrative, which is bullshit. And Adam was like, look at all the straits out there.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Like, if there even is a narrative, the light does not need to be shined on this.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yeah, do you feel guilty getting divorced when everyone's like fighting so hard for gay marriage? I think is what I asked.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Right, totally.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Which he answered perfectly. But I just thought it was so interesting with him being so close to politics and particularly that issue.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Yeah, that was a really like good full circle, full circle human experience where like many things can be true all at once.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

What a cool guy.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Okay, well, I think we'll wrap that up. Um, Tyler, we do need to do Song of the Week, so I hope you maybe have one. Okay. Actually, I know I could I'll just shout out a whole album. Why not? Kim Petris. Have you guys listened to Kim's new album? Have listened to Kim's album. Uh-huh. I didn't know she had one. She did. I know. She couldn't really like she released Blue under the radar. She released singles, but didn't promote them like largely like she has in the past. And so it kind of came out and everyone was like, oh, there's a new album out. She has a new album out. Felt very uh pride, like June. Yeah. Yeah. It's really it's very like club pop pride. My coconuts? Uh less poppy than that. More edgy, more like sexy pop, more like uh more cuffy. You know that like more cuffy. That like crunchy, wet production sound that's like rough almost underground. Yeah, a lot of that. Um it's really good. I think it it'll be a good uh fun pop pop listen.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

What's the album called Hindrine or Detour. Oh, there we go. We got that. Sorry. We got there. Wait, what's your name of the what's the like song though?

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Detour. No, but like what's your song of the week? Oh from I really like DTLA, and I really like there's one called um Brutalist. That's my favorite. Really? Yeah. Was it really? Yeah, I thought it was very um kind of deep for Kim in a way. Like it was really cool. It's all about how when her dad was taking her to therapy when she was little, and there was like this building that she was kind of enamored with, and it was a brutalist building, and then they tear down the building, and then she like is healthy later and she wants to bring this person back into her life to see the building, but the building's been torn down. Wow. I thought it was it's very I it's it's very because the rest of the album, to be honest, I didn't gravitate to yet, but I've only done the first listen through. And I like so Kim Petrus is kind of my like surprising artist for some reason. I just like really have always liked Kim Petris. Hell yeah, but I did really like that song. I I think that one is really good. Yeah, and it's it's it's crazy because she's like juxtaposing the deep thought and the experience of it with the like crazy wild production of like the rest of the album. So it fits in really well with the rest of the album.

SPEAKER_03 58:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

But it all kind of like hits you when you realize what she's actually talking about. Yeah, yeah. So it'll be good. It'll be interesting to see what happens with this album because it's the first album that she is under, not under the label that she was under before.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

She very much has branded it as like this is my reckoning of everything that I want to do via music.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Hell yeah. Freedom album.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Freedom album.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Well, I think that is a wrap.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Um Isaac's getting tired, so I think we're gonna wrap, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

I think we're gonna put it to bed. We're gonna do a wrap.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Let's take Peepaw to bed.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Let's take me to bed, someone.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

There, there, mail back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:06

Okay. Okay, everyone, as always, let us know if you have any questions on either of these episodes. It was great. Again, like Adam was so insightful, and I'm sure he'd be more than willing and happy to answer any follow-up questions. Or if you yourself happen to be going through divorce or have questions or anything, please send us as always all socials at Nogays in Montana or email us at NogazeMontana at gmail.com. Ciao. Bye. Chao Chow.