37. Jenn x Jaime AF Chats Ep1. Sober Shaming: When Not Drinking Becomes a Problem for Others

In this Jenn x Jaime AF Chat, host Jenn Reed sits down with co-host Jaime Andersen for a candid conversation about sober shaming - the judgment, comments, and social pressure people face when they choose not to drink. Both share raw, personal experiences of being on both sides of this issue, from distancing themselves from non-drinking friends to facing criticism and lost friendships after getting sober. They explore why sober shaming happens, discuss the impact it can have on people in early recovery, and offer practical tools for handling these challenging social situations. This honest discussion reveals how alcohol is so normalized in our culture that choosing sobriety can trigger uncomfortable reactions from others, and provides valuable insights for anyone navigating social situations without alcohol.

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Transcript

Jenn Reed (00:30)
so today I have Jamie and we are discussing a topic We're gonna have a few of these first one is sober shaming. So thank you for coming and joining.

Jaime Andersen (00:40)
Thanks for having me!

Jenn Reed (00:42)
Okay, what do you think the definition of

Jaime Andersen (00:46)
I think it's like

comments or I mean, it could be like, to see like being judged for not drinking. It can be comments about not drinking like path of aggressive. It can be just like eye rolls. So essentially it's just being like judged for not drinking. What do you think? You say? Yeah. Okay.

Jenn Reed (01:03)
Yeah, I agree.

And then also, I mean, not only what people do in front of you, but like the not inviting you. So that would be actions outside of in your in front of you, I guess, so to speak. But.

Jaime Andersen (01:18)
Yeah, I sober like shamed a friend. Like my close friend, like, I don't know if I shamed her out loud, maybe they're like loop or something. But like, I've heard Megan quit drinking years ago. She's like six or seven, seven years fully coming up. And I like distanced myself from her for a couple of years because of it, because it made me feel bad. And like, and then when I decided to quit drinking, I actually, and I was like a month or two and I reached out to her and now we're like, hang on. That's what I run with every weekend.

I used to think people were so lame for not drinking. Like, honestly, I totally did.

Jenn Reed (01:55)
What does she say about that now? Does she say anything?

Jaime Andersen (01:58)
We don't really talk about it too much. Like I've said it before, like, you know, I've meant I've posted a kind of about it and stuff, but we don't really talk. We just say we kind of like lost touch for it for, know, and I owned up. I've said to her, like, you know, I think it's because, you know, you used to be drinking and it made me feel bad, but she doesn't have any judgment or anything around it.

Jenn Reed (02:16)
Has anybody done that to you?

Jaime Andersen (02:18)
was so ashamed from a really close friend that I've known for like over at this point, probably almost 20 years. And she moved across country and I went and stayed with her. And it was like right after it was like three months in, because I quit in July, 2022. And I stayed with her in October and made a comment to me.

Like, cause I, at that point I joined a program that was doing like habits. So was like, when I was there visiting, was like walking, was reading and I like shared with her what I was doing about like not drinking. And she pretty much was like, I didn't know you were such an alcoholic. And I was like, okay. So was really hard for me because it was like early on I just joined this program left like my little kids at home. And I was just like, so sad that that happened, but I just like.

Jenn Reed (02:57)
Thank

Jaime Andersen (03:09)
I went out, I remember I went on a walk and I got just like, shout it out, called Luke, my husband, just like told them and was like, it's okay. So we just continued on. We had fun for the rest of the trip. And then after that, stopped answering my calls. Um, I'd like some like a Marco Polo video message because like very close with my kids. So I ignored them. Checked it on birthday, her birthday, completely ghosted me. And then we haven't been friends since and we were like really close.

And I think it, I think it was because of that, because I quit drinking. And the thing is, if she's not a drinker, like she might have drinks here and there, but I think it had to do more with me, like doing this thing to like better myself. That maybe made her a little bit uncomfortable and realizing she probably needed to do the same thing too. And it makes me really sad even now, like, it's like, cause I wish it wasn't that way. Cause I miss her every day, but that was really hard early on the stocks. I was bombed.

Like I didn't even like, just wanted to go home, but luckily I just like called the husband and we just got through it. So that was really crappy.

Jenn Reed (04:12)
Yeah, that sucks. Do you think that maybe she actually drinks more than you think? You know, just like we talked about when people are like, ⁓ you don't have a problem. You're fine. You hardly drink. Where, you know, some people drink when they're out and then go home and drink. Do you think? Maybe? No.

Jaime Andersen (04:32)
Yeah,

I so. She's never just been a big drinker, like even around me. like whenever we would spend time together, when she lived in Seattle, that wasn't like our thing. Like, and I was always a huge drinker. Like I was always like drinking beers and

it's always like the younger partier one. Not young anymore. But I think so. I honestly just think it had to do with just me just doing this thing just to

which kind of try to change my life and just have healthier habits. And for some reason I just hit her the wrong way, but I don't know. I mean, I guess you don't really know what people are going through. And so my goal is at one point is to reach back out, but I haven't done that yet.

Jenn Reed (05:06)
⁓ I am.

Did that trigger you? Like, were you like, maybe I should just drink and then we'll be fine? Wow. Show her that I'm not an alcoholic, that I can handle it.

Jaime Andersen (05:23)
It didn't. And I think the really good news for me was is, well, because I also like, because I joined a challenge that was like about sobriety. And so was through Jen Hurst's program. And so I was very much like a week or two in. And I was talking to Jen, like throughout that, like right before on Facebook messenger, told her about it. And she was like encouraging me to like, it was a group coaching, but I felt like I had a coach. And I'm also the type like when I do a challenge,

I'm all in on that challenge. Like some people are like, don't want to miss a day here. I'm like, no, I'm getting every day. I've actually changed over the years. I'm not like that as much anymore, but I was very much focused on that. And I, and I just knew that also like, I was just feeling so much better and I was just wanting to continue to see how it felt. I don't remember it specifically being triggering. I remember we ate a lot.

Jenn Reed (06:13)
That's all.

Jaime Andersen (06:14)
and hehehehe

Jenn Reed (06:17)
I have found that the people who kind of do that type of thing to me, or more or less just pressure me, that are not the people I thought would. You know, like the people who could really care are just like, no, yeah, whatever. And then the ones who are really pushy are not at all who I thought. It's just crazy to me.

Jaime Andersen (06:40)
I want to hear, me some examples of like when you've been sober-shamed.

Jenn Reed (06:44)
Um, so, since senior year, I guess alcohol came up and I said, know I'm not drinking for a senior year and the comment was no, that's when you should be drinking.

Jaime Andersen (06:58)
Did you say anything back?

Jenn Reed (07:00)
I said I will not have one for you.

Jaime Andersen (07:03)
I like that.

Jenn Reed (07:06)
Yeah, but yeah. And I do seriously think it's the people who question their drinking,

Jaime Andersen (07:14)
I've had it. remember within my first 10 days, we went to a wedding because I got alcohol free on a sober on Tuesday or Wednesday. And so that a week, a week and a half later, we went to a wedding in Leavenworth, which is in Washington state. It's absolutely gorgeous. Very idyllic town. It's a Bavarian like beer town. So it's like beer, pretzels. It's amazing. Like, it's just it's insane. Looks like it's out of a like a book.

⁓ but we went to a wedding there and sort of my husband's cousin and my sister-in-law and I was re I was pretty wrecked that first 10 days. Like I felt irritated. I was stressed out. I just wanted to rip everybody's heads off. Like, and I just felt so bad. Like it does not feel good. I

remember it was that Friday night and the wedding was on Saturday and she was trying to talk to send to go into a bar.

And I was like, well, I'm not drinking right now. And she was like,

don't even like drinks that much. Like you could do it. Like it's we're Leavenworth. It's like it's a wedding weekend. And I just had to be like, no, I know I'm just not drinking. And I remember I was like, ⁓ it's so irritated. And then I had my husband go buy me some like NA beers that they had. And it was just, I think there was like one option back then in this little town. And we ended up just like hanging out in the hotel room.

just us and I just didn't even have, could not believe it. And I just kept remembering that like the first like few months just of that comment to me. It's like, why would you say that? You have no idea what I'm going through. And I think a lot, don't know. A lot of people might think like, oh, Jamie or Jen, they have it put together. You know, they look great on the outside, but you don't know what we're doing at home or how much we're drinking or like what a problem it is for us or like our why behind it. Like, and also no one really asks you. It's like, no one's like,

Oh, but but what but why I would love to hear like why like, well, that's that's great. Like, why are you doing it? You know, no one really asked you why it's like, well, I want you know, was it feeling good anymore? I had a little baby and I was just like, sleeping like shit every night. You don't want to ask you that either. It is this. And so it's super interesting. Like comments that people make.

Jenn Reed (09:26)
Yeah, it is interesting though, like, because we both have kind of said, we've been on that flip side, you know, like we've done it. And so which I guess makes it even better because then we know it really isn't about us. You know, it's like if we were doing that is because we felt bad or we didn't understand. But you're right. We should have said, well, how are you feeling or how's it going? Or do you want to share or do you not want to share maybe? Yeah.

Jaime Andersen (09:55)
Yes, 100%. And I think it's just like words matter and like your reaction to it absolutely matters.

just and why do we care so much about what our people are doing? Like, I think it's like, yeah, but I used to judge everybody like all the time that didn't drink. I'd be like, they're so boring. I don't want to hang out with them if they're not drinking. I was completely like that. I had a friend I was like, I don't want to like waste my weekend on somebody that's not going to be drinking with me.

And like now I hear myself saying that I was like, what a jerk, like what's my problem? It's like, and all the friends I've known forever, like years. And then I'd just be like, you know, there's not as fun. And then I would hang out with people I wasn't that close with because they did drink and that I couldn't be myself with. I felt like it just never really like comfortable with, but just because they were drinking. So it's very interesting. So I've totally been on the reverse side of it. Now I just feel like, yeah, I'm like, I wish I would have never done that, but you know, it's okay.

Yeah, it's all learning just learning, you know, it's just the experience of it all.

Jenn Reed (10:55)
So the folks that you hung out primarily because they drink, you don't hang out with them anymore, I assume then,

Jaime Andersen (11:01)
No, it's pretty interesting. A lot of it happened though, during like after the pandemic, because of the pandemic, we just lost touch with so many people. But a lot of our friends before were friends that on my husband's side, just like friends and then like from college. So we would hang out with them a lot. And then we just kind of lost touch, but we'd always like be going out and stuff like that. And then like we had kids, it kind of slowed down a little bit. But it's our circle of friends.

We don't have a circle any more very small of who we hang out with now. But we also just want to do different things. Like I think for us, like we just want to like stay home, be with the kids, you know, go on trips places. And so I think it's more just like, we're super intentional about like our time and what we do. But, you know, but that's just how it

Jenn Reed (11:54)
Okay, we were going to talk about the impact.

Jaime Andersen (11:57)
Well, did we talk about why

sober shaming

Jenn Reed (11:59)
I think it happens, well, because of people's guilt or just something that's not with the crowd. know, if you're different, it's people shame you for that.

Jaime Andersen (12:12)
Yeah, for sure. I think also it's just like the social conditioning of it all. Like, I don't know, alcohol has been so normalized and like just not drinking. It just seemed incredibly abnormal. Right. And then, so I think that's a piece of it, but I'm excited because I think it's starting to shift. A lot more people are not drinking anymore. So I'm hoping that it will make it easier for women and men.

that are not drinking, not to be shamed anymore. So I'm hoping with change, it will just make it easier to kind of share, you know, can you're changing your lifestyle. But then also, I say just insecurity, like you said, right, you were saying that it's like, it's really about the other person. So I mean, I think sometimes it's other people's discomfort about their own drinking when they see someone not drinking. And I say this, and I posted the other day, like,

Other people's discomfort is not our responsibility. I had like a leadership coach that said that like last year and I just keep saying that like it's 100 % true and we have to remember that like. Very hard, it so hard. It is hard to do that, but I think it's all just like you have to just. Take it, take it till you are it right? You just have to like own this decision to be alcohol free and you know and if it's somebody else's like.

Jenn Reed (13:15)
It's hard though.

Jaime Andersen (13:31)
they have a problem with it, it's on them and just let them do that. Obviously, Mel Robbins, let them, but it's hard. mean, and it's just, have to just continue and be like super crisp on like why you're here, like what your goals are and, you know, and just continue to kind of make it your priority and share it with people too. I think just also being open and honest about it kind of helps just reduce some of the stigma around it, but it is really freaking hard.

Jenn Reed (13:59)
I feel like we should also talk about the opposite. And that is the alcohol shaming. So I don't know about you, but I did kind of have a like holier than thou a few years ago after not drinking for quite a while. And this isn't necessarily the same thing, but in Annie Grease's book, she talks about how, you know, she quit and she was just like, bleh, to everybody about how great it was and how you should do this.

So I think there also is that like, thinking you're better, but really you were there.

Jaime Andersen (14:31)
Yes. Yeah.

Jenn Reed (14:33)
So the compassion piece probably.

Jaime Andersen (14:36)
Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like, for me, I'm pretty open and honest about like how hard this is, because like, I think it is so normalized. This is like what we're used to. It's like all of sudden to stop drinking like water, right? Like, it's very hard to do or brush your teeth, maybe, that's better. But I would say like,

I honestly just talk about about myself. Like I'm a coach at a group coaching and I don't really like ever say like, like, I'm not the type that's like, oh, I think I could help you. Like I never like really do that. I just talk about me and like how great it's been for me, but I just talk about personal story about it. I do have my moments where it's like on Mother's Day, we went to a brewery, which is actually the first time I went to this brewery right down the street. We used to go all the time. Uh, when this recent Mother's Day was the first time since before I quit.

before I was like when I was drinking. And there are a bunch of moms there right at opening drinking big beers. And I was just like, I don't think I was like shaming them in my head, but I was just like, it's curious. I was just wanting to know like, do you feel the same way I did? Like, I feel more like I want to help them like understand like how much better life is when you're not drinking alcohol.

Because I understand what it's like, you know, and I think for me, it's not the shaming. It's just like, I just felt super empathetic. It's that compassion, right? That's you're saying. And I'm like, like, and I want to know more. I want to be like, if you're here right at his open, that's what I would have been doing. Like, got to get my seat, got to get that beer, you know, and it's Mother's Day. So very interesting. I don't know. Yeah. So I try really hard to be more on the empathetic side of

Jenn Reed (16:18)
So, impact, right? Impact sober shaming, which I've been there. So someone pushes enough or you're just sitting there watching them enough and you cave, so to speak, just to keep the peace. I don't know. Feel like you fit in that kind of thing.

Jaime Andersen (16:38)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. mean, I would say, I would say sometimes like if people are shaming you, like, you know, like the comments to me, like, I didn't know you're an alcoholic, such an alcoholic, or you don't drink that much. For me, it just really made me like question my decision. It kind of makes you just feel like alone and like nobody really understands you and like, really cares about what's going on.

I would say that's for me. mean, obviously I think triggers could be it. I haven't had that too much. It's hard now because I'm like, I've been alcohol free for three years. I've tried to quit so many times before and I know I've absolutely like drink when I was trying to take a break because of social pressure. But I would say probably just like triggering. So it's like, you have to be super mindful of that because we don't want to trigger somebody in early sobriety because I'll just say like, it.

A lot of people, it's really hard. I would say social pressure is probably one of the hardest things I see, other than like partners that drink. And it's like, it can really just change their whole like, their whole direction very quickly if we just say something that makes them feel bad about themselves and feel guilty. And they'll say, okay, I'm just gonna drink instead.

Jenn Reed (17:49)
So what are some tools that you could think of if someone is being sober shamed?

Jaime Andersen (17:56)
Always be prepared. And so like if you are going into any like event, it could be a work happy hour or family event. It can be even just with girlfriends, anything or partner, just like have go to phrases ready to go like, ⁓ you know, I don't drink anymore. It's the best decision I ever made. Or actually I'm taking a break from drinking right now because I'm saving my money for a trip.

or it's like, oh, I'm doing a challenge right now and I'm not drinking. I mean, I think just having like a really firm response really helps with that. And so you need to be prepared for this. I would say 90 to 95 % of the people are not going to care, be supportive. If there's any of those people out there that might make little like jigs here and there. So just be prepared for that. And honestly, you just have to go in there, stand confident and be super firm in your decision before you go.

Make that decision. I've had drinking today, no matter what happens and do what you need to do. Maybe workout before, or maybe have a workout date after. Like bring your drinks with you. Look at the drink menu ahead online. You can read any venue online now. What kind of NA drinks do they have? Or bring your own drinks. Like there's tons of things that you can do. Also show up late. That always helps. So you're not there at the beginning. Like, go to the bar.

Go to the bar and order your drink first. Go up there and get like a mocktail. Nobody will know the difference. Then walk down to the table. Like do different things like that. Like breath work is always really helpful. Like just breathing in and out before. Just trying to calm yourself down and like compare for it. And then also after, make sure you have a reward for yourself because for getting through it. And then community, obviously like have an accountability partner, somebody that you can text. Maybe that can text before.

and like during and after, or maybe they're there with you or have a community, like a sober community always helps and check in with them ahead of time. I'm going to this event tonight, me all the vibes, know, and then you can like check in later. So those are some thoughts that I would have, but do you have anything that you do that I'm missing?

Jenn Reed (20:00)
So I think the prepared ones are a little bit easier. It's the on the spot. Like an example would be, you I don't know, coworkers are like, hey, a few of us are just going to go down to blah, blah. Do you want to come with us and have a drink? You know, those ones that are like, yeah, I'd like to, or I don't know. I guess you'd probably just want to excuse yourself or be like, give me five minutes, you know, get on your phone, check where the place is or.

Maybe think about it before you just say yes. Or if you do say yes, then yeah, be prepared.

Jaime Andersen (20:35)
I like that and I think like yeah, I'll meet you there in 15 like if you're comfortable going I would say definitely if you're in like earlier on or maybe it's a little longer and you're not comfortable in these situations Don't go. I mean, I think a lot of people also understand like people have lives outside of work So like it's okay if you're like, hey, I'm doing a spin glass after this or I have my kid to go pick up or sporting event whatever and if you don't just say you do like no one cares and

But I would say with that too, it's like, also if you're driving, like a lot of people drive like, I'm driving, I'm not drinking. Like, and to me, I think if you're like, oh, I'm driving home, like, I don't think they should be like, well, you can just have one. Like, I never.

Jenn Reed (21:13)
Okay, well that's aggressive because around here, I don't know if that's really around here, this is probably another instance of sober shaming. It's like you can have one in drive, you know, that comes up all the time. We're just letting you have two. We won't let you have more than two.

Jaime Andersen (21:29)
Yeah. And also if you're constantly being sober shamed by the same people, you need to rethink that relationship because that is not supportive. And if they're literally like badgering you into drinking and driving, that's a huge red flag. Look up for the green flags here. Like find people that are supportive of you and do not care if you have a two beers or not. and so I would say that's gross. I really lean into that because like that's not a friend.

Like, why do they care so badly that you have to have a glass of poison? Like, literally, like, why is it so important to them?

Jenn Reed (22:07)
Robbins let them, like he said.

Jaime Andersen (22:08)
You have to love them. And I think for people like that, have to disenfirm like, hey, I'm not drinking. Like, and if you keep drinking it up, I'm just not going to be around you anymore. Like,

Jenn Reed (22:20)
at

some

Jaime Andersen (22:20)
Draw a line, okay? And just remember too, like, if you have to drink to have fun with people in general, it's not as fun, it's not fun in the first place.

Jenn Reed (22:31)
Yes, yeah, like you said, do you really want to meet people?

Jaime Andersen (22:36)
Yeah, it's we think it we think this relationship because if I was somebody that was constantly like saying that to me and make me feel like shit every time I saw them for making a decision for me that is about my health about me wanting to live my best life and just sick of feeling like crap every day. That doesn't make any sense. Don't even they'd want what's for you.

Jenn Reed (22:53)
Mm-hmm.