Balancing Business and Lightwork: How to Shine as a Spiritual Entrepreneur in Difficult Times with Deborah C. Smith

In this episode, we explore the challenges and opportunities of being a lightworker and building a soul-led business in a tumultuous world. Michelle is joined by Deborah C. Smith, a marketing strategist and holistic business coach, who offers powerful insight into balancing feminine and masculine energies within a purpose-driven business.

Debra breaks down why now is actually the most important time to become more visible, especially when the world feels heavy, and how showing up can be an act of service, not pressure. Together, we dive into the role of ethical sales, grounded leadership, and the systems and structures that create sustainable success for spiritual entrepreneurs.

You’ll hear Debra’s wisdom on how lightworkers can stay centered, protect their energy, and thrive by integrating self-care with practical business foundations. She also shares free resources and programs to help listeners navigate their entrepreneurial journey with clarity, confidence, and alignment.

Deborah's Podcast: Mindset to Market: Holistic Business Tools for Solopreneurs with Deborah C. Smith

Deborah's  $7 Private Podcast: The Premium Client Energetic Self-Audit  

This 6-episode private podcast series will help you ditch the fear of visibility and start calling in aligned premium clients today. 

Michelle's Gift to you: 

🎁 The Courage Codes Bundle – Your free activation set including a 12-minute Audio Activation- The Call To Courage Activation, The Spark Activating Journal, and Courage Code Wallpapers to help you stay aligned with your truth and take inspired action.
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Transcript

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Hello and welcome back to the show. This is Michelle Berman, your host today, and I am just going to start with this one sentence. It is a strange time to be a lightworker, is it not? In previous episodes, we have been exploring what it actually means to be a lightworker and how you're the call to lead because we talked about this last week. You know that, that. Picking courage over confidence because inside you as a lightworker, you have a, you have a mission. It's bubbling up inside you. So many of us though, are feeling the heaviness in the air. We're feeling the pain and the fear and the division. So I wanted to create an episode that really speaks to you and as robust enough to help you get clarity on what you should be focusing on right now. How to show up when things are this loaded and tumultuous, and of course I called my friend Debra. She is my friend and fellow Lightworker and she is a genius. My guest today, Debra C. Smith is a marketing strategist, and holistic business coach to purpose-driven entrepreneurs and host of the podcast mindset to market holistic business tools for solopreneurs. Let me just start by saying this, okay. Debra is a gem. Okay. She does some incredibly important and powerful work. She helps us lightworkers, okay, build systems, funnels, all the things we need so we can actually reach the people that we are here to reach and to, to help. Um, so many of us really get stuck in the feminine. Energy and Debra is a genius and a master at grounding us in our masculine to get shit done and get the funnels and systems that we need to support our mission. So I know if you have a mission inside of you, whether you know what it is yet or not. Debra is gonna be here today to hold our hands and talk to us about what it's like to show up right now. Share her wisdom and what she understands that we need to be focused on right now. Get out and heal the world. That's our job. So welcome Deborah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's so good to see you. Hi Michelle. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. It's so good to be here. Yeah, we have, I'm grateful. I'm excited to have this conversation. Yeah, I mean, we're to begin, I think it's gonna really lend nicely to, to head into this with you so that we can really talk about getting out there and, and creating and transforming the lives that we want to. Right. But you're the, the master at the systems and, and also you have a really beautiful. Wisdom around what we need to be doing for ourselves in terms of getting out in a world that's just like cuckoo bananas right now. Right? Like it's just really, really hard every day. Yeah. And so how are you helping your people? What advice are you giving about stepping out into the world right now and showing yourself and trying to hold a high vibe and get out there and smile when things feel so hard? Yeah. Well. I th first thing that comes to mind honestly, is that people, those of us who identify and understand that our energetic gifts are actually a service and have made the decision to try and turn that into a viable business. Like if you know that. Part of your mission and your gift here as a embodied human being in a, in a very wild, energetic world, is to be a conduit for healing, is to help people have a transformation, is to help people realize, identify, you know, whatever blocks or energetic shifts they could, could have. It'll help them feel better, have a better day, you know, make progress in whatever area of the world you serve in. Right now, even though it is a tremendously difficult time to be alive and witnessing so much pain in some way, it makes our job easier because it's critical that we show up and serve. It's critical for the world for us to step up and. I, I've talked to lots of my fellow empaths and fellow, you know, healers who do business coaching and or whatever they do as a service to help women, specifically entrepreneurs, like step up and lead. And I don't think there's anybody, you know, doing this work right now who doesn't feel the fear involved in becoming visible for your work and being seen as a leader and stepping up and claiming your space. But in some ways it's easier than ever because it's like do or die, right? When people are out there just like, you know, like saying the like quiet part out loud about how they would prefer to just call entire parts of society when there are people out there who are like willing to just like look the other way while like there's a genocide happening. You know, using our tax dollars when there's like entire, you know, you know, leadership teams just. S willing to sacrifice people's healthcare and food needs. And when we see all of that, you know, painful imbalance in our world, it's almost easier to say, you know what? The gloves are off. I've gotta show up and serve. I've gotta help people find balance. And it's. It's our job to, to step up and to raise our hands and say, okay, I'll do it. Mm-hmm. I'll be the one, I'll be the one that helps you get through this. I'll help with your transformation. I'll help with your healing. So, to answer the question about how I'm serving my clients, you know, as a business coach, I call myself a holistic business coach because I, I. Come from the wellness industry. Um, I started as a holistic health coach, immediately realized I wanted to do something with a higher touchpoint and built a serv, um, sorry, a product based business. And what that looked like was basically a long story short, a juice bar, but that had a coaching component to it. And that had both wellness coaching and also business coaching. So yes, we have an episode on that and I will go ahead and put that in the show notes. Yeah, so you can actually hear the interesting, I mean, Debra has was brilliant at health coaching and she was amazing at nutrition and that was your whole world before you got started into helping people in business. Yeah. So we have a whole episode on that. Yeah. Yeah. It's been sort of like flip-flopping back and forth. 'cause I come from marketing and business and I wanted to, I, I got into health coaching 'cause I was pursuing my own wellness. And discovered this amazing way to live your life holistically and balance things and how much happier and healthier I felt. So I became like just so passionate about helping others do that. But at the same time, I was running a business successfully, and I have, so I always had this, you know, kind of flip flop coaching program where some of my clients were business clients who needed the wellness piece attached, and some of my clients were wellness clients who also wanted to help with their businesses. And it just. You know, whichever one it was, I was, we are kind of packaging the same skill sets, right. So anyways, what I think about, you know, showing up visibility, number one, it's, it's critical. We have to, we have to be willing to step up and say, even though this is painful and this is difficult and this is uncomfortable, I'm here to serve. And the number one thing I think. AIDS us in being able to do that is ritual self-care. Hmm. So, you know, literally having, you know, some type of daily. Routine or morning routine that protects your energy, especially for us porous empaths who really feel everything. I mean, it is brutal out there. So we need tools to guard our precious resource, which is the energy, right? If you are porous, the very thing that makes you a healer is the thing that makes you vulnerable. And so you need. Some mechanisms and tools and structured ritual in place to help guide your day where. You know, you are replenishing your energy, you are protecting your energy. You are literally zipping up your energy to go out there onto the internet or into the world and, and do your work without it derailing you emotionally and depleting you of that very resource that is your gift. Right. You know, and as you say that, what's making me think right, or what I'm thinking right now is like, you know, there's, yes. So there's this. This, this work that we have to do to stay clean and stay vibrant, right at a time where it is so easy. It's like a virus really. It's so easy to catch this virus where you are resentful and angry and frustrated and hurt and worried and in fear. And I just wanna say what I'm hearing, what I'm being inspired into right now is that our business is also. An extension of us and our businesses also needs to be held in the same bubble. You know that there needs to be something sacred that we hold around the business so that we recognize that it also doesn't catch the virus, and that it can thrive and it can stay alive, and it can be built at a time when there's this viral toxicity going around everywhere. And so we can. You know, look at, okay, these are the things I gotta do to energetically clear myself every day. But what are we doing to make sure that we're staying in our integrity and we are facing our own fears, right? Because when all we're being pummeled everywhere, right? We have more anxiety, we're gonna have more anxiety about everything than we do about just what's happening in the world, right? We can be in a more anxious state and be more afraid of being visible and be more afraid of putting ourselves out there. And of course, you know, I'm gonna name it. I know you're thinking it. A lot of us are also afraid of being tone deaf or seeming like, Hey, let's do it. Joy, let's, let's create joy all night together. We're gonna, I'm gonna hold a service where we just feel joy and people are like, did you not see, what's happening out there? Yeah. And so it's like, how do we get out there and, and really in, I think part of it's informing people of the power. And that's what these past be my previous episodes to us today, talking have been about the power that love and joy hold vibrationally. Our job as lightworkers on the planet is to actually do maintain that space that is really important to the planet that we stay and our businesses offer that same extensions of us of. Joy and healing and right that that love and vi gratitude and higher vibrational being is like actually cool still in business and that it's okay. It's okay. Right. But I know we're all a little afraid of being tone deaf. Yeah, I mean, of course like if, if, you know, I mean, look, the internet is, um, is a product of a giant collection of brains, right? It's not just, it's what's beautiful about it is that it, it's, it's this ever present, you know, massive network of e of inputs and so you, you're never gonna please everybody. You are going to do something at becoming visible and being seen and talking about your business and selling your services and getting paid for your worth and all that stuff, um, requires being seen, requires visibility. So. Someone's not gonna like it. Somebody out there is gonna have something negative to the more visible you become, the the, the bigger your audience, the larger your reach and impact, the more likely you will have naysayers and people who you rub the wrong way, because not everybody is operating with a healed nervous system. And so not everybody is walking around feeling like it's safe to express themselves. And if they don't feel like it's safe, you're gonna trigger them when you, when you safely express yourself. Right? So, mm-hmm. 100% you can, you can guarantee that the more you know positive. And healed you are the more you're gonna trigger people who are unhealed Oh, who are managing, yeah. Low self issues that you have overcome. Yes. So, but it is not in service to them for you to be quiet because you're showing them an example of how they can also reach a posi, you know, I mean, look, everybody wants to feel better. People don't necessarily want to stay stuck and struggling, but while they are stuck and struggling. It, it's such an icky feeling that it can be like passing the poison. So I think there's a couple of things that came to mind when you were just talking. Um, number one, you know, this is a little bit like the feminine, the masculine side of, being a human being and being a business person, but healing and the art of, transformation and energy work and being a lightworker, being someone who. Has a porous energetic system by which they can help people have a transformation where they can really help people shift energy, which is a huge part of healing that's very feminine and it's very, um, it's a softer piece of type of work. Business is about making money. Businesses are designed to. Sustain your lifestyle by helping you, you know, generate a cur, generate an exchange so that the work you do has value in the marketplace and you are compensated in some way. And unfortunately for us, we live in a world where we need food, shelter, water, we need money, we need the, we need the common currency, right? We need to get paid dollar bills, or we need some type of an exchange that equals that value. Whether that be someone putting food on your table or you know. In exchange for your work, you get your rent is deferred. Like somehow. You need your basic needs met through your business. So if you're gonna be a successful business owner who can grow and thrive and impact people and heal, you need to make money, and that's the masculine part of your, what you're doing. And so I think it's very helpful to separate those two things out and say I'm tapped into my feminine healing porous lightworker energy when I'm doing my work, but when I'm supporting my work by having a business container with within which I can sustain it. That's when I'm tapping into the masculine side and I'm doing, you know, kind of like nuts and bolts type things that keep it running and keep it, keep it, you know, operate the system that continues to generate new leads, automates the nurture sequences that help us connect with those people and show them a little bit about who we are. Um, you know, automatically sends them an invitation to join your program and or buy your offer package, whatever. Without you having to necessarily be constantly in sales mode yourself. Like, that's why automations and the tech stuff is so powerful because it supports you in letting go of that masculine work so you can be tapped in to the, to the feminine part of the business, which is you doing the thing you do. So if you can think about it, just separate the two things, right? Your, your, your feminine energy is. Is there to help you sustain the transformation, the healing work, to be that porous light effervescent channel so that you can receive people's, you know, whatever's coming in and just let it move through you. You need to be open, you need to be soft, you need to be porous. You need to be available for the transformational energy work. And then that's very different than the like writing emails, you know, like setting up these like tactical strategies. And so I really, in my business, I tried, I separate those two things out. I have blocks of time for the, like nuts and bolts, you know, kind of very masculine sales stuff. Yeah. Um, working on, on the business. And then I really try to contain, you know, that's, that's a huge part of what I do, right? I have to sell my offers, but when I'm with a client. And I'm working in the business, like when I'm working, you know, as the coach, as the holistic healer, helping a woman figure out her stuff. I need to be open, I need to receive, I need to listen, I need to be embodying, kind of like the transformational. You know, energy holder, it's just a really different role. Yeah. And I'm hearing so much of what you just said, but I'm gonna just highlight a couple things. So clearly, you know, the big message here is that it's really important for us to be in both our masculine and our feminine, and a lot of us healer types. A lot of us, and this is my listeners, aren't just healers. They're, they're out in the world doing all sorts of things, right? Yeah. Um, you know, they're doing all sorts of business, all sorts of things, and. All of us, though, I think are sensitive types, are seeker types, right? We, we want, we really idolize or really enjoy wanting, desiring the feminine frequency, right? We want to be in that frequency. We wanna feel that we wanna build more of that in our life. It feels soft, it feels good. Um, and some, many of us. Struggle going into the masculine. And so just as you're saying this, I wanna say to those of you that are listening that also have some mold money stories, right? I just wanna mention this. I don't wanna go too far. Take us off track. But I feel like it has to be said that if you have money stories about, you know that well, you know, it's not just about making money, like, you know, 'cause we are talking about. You know, you leading into something like business or leading into something like you're making a difference in the world and having impact. I'm telling you that if you are struggling for your survival, if you are struggling to make your bills meet, right, like if you're trying to get food on the table and you're trying to, you know, pay, get all your bills paid and you can't, I'm telling you the impact we have in the world is smaller. It just is. It's harder to hold the energy to get out into the world when you yourself are struggling in that sense. And so we have to look beyond. You know, looking at our businesses and their, the health and wellbeing of them and our desires and our, you know, leadership in terms of, you know, nobody out in the world that made a huge difference. Very few of them, even Mother Theresa had a private jet, right? Like so. Right. So, you know, yes. So. So we are really out here. The more money financial we have, the more we can step into our masculine. I love what you're saying, Deborah, like the more we can do those systems and funnels and get them going, or hire somebody else to do them, Deborah, which you can talk about, so. You know, Deborah's helped me because that isn't my strength always. Right? And so really understanding the, the importance of the business needs both. And people are like, oh, I don't know. I don't wanna do that email list. I've had a lot of clients be like, oh, I don't wanna do the email list. That's just like such a pa And I'm like, you know, if you don't build a place for people to go, a place to reach people that you, that belongs to you, right? If you don't wanna put yourself out there, then you're. Not going to have an impact. If you wanna really serve, and that's what I love what you said, we're really turning this into service. Yeah. Selling and being virtual vir. You know, putting yourself out there, being, making yourself visual. It's all about service. Yeah. Every single business needs two systems in place that are not negotiable. One is a way to generate new leads, new people coming into your business. New clients, very few businesses rely forever on the same people forever. That just isn't how businesses operate. So if you are, if you are listening to this and. You are an entrepreneur. I mean not, I know not every single person listening to this is an entrepreneur, but for those people who are, you know, cultivating income through service of some kind. You, you are going to need to constantly connect with new audience members and convert those people into what we call leads, which is people who might be interested in buying from you. And then the step after that is to convert those leads to sales. So you need a lead generation system, a way to connect with new people and build your audience to connect with new voices. And, excuse me, you need a way to, a simple way to offer them your work and. And, and make sales. So there are definitely like a couple groups of people that're listing right now. Some of them are like. Hate. They're, they're glazing over right now. They're, they're suddenly, like, something is shiny object nearby. I don't know. Right? They hear lead generation, they hear these things and they're like, yeah. Oh, that just sounds so like beyond my pay grade. I don't know what that is. They, they didn't grow up in the world of business, but they wanna get out and really make a difference. And then there are those people that are like, oh yeah, she's speaking my language. Right? So let's kind of address that. There's sort of these, there's. There's different stages you can be in, in this. And while we're holding the container for the world being what it is right now and the difficulties that we can face in all sorts of ways in business right now, and, and in shining our light and getting out there, we do have people in their different progression. And so maybe you could speak a little bit to, you know, some of the things that you do that you help people in this different progression a little bit. Because there's, there's some of those people that are. You know, in the very beginning phases, like, I think we talked about it before, like there's, there's people that actually don't have a product yet, but they have it inside them. There's something like sparkling and they haven't gotten it out and really created the thing. Right? Yeah. I mean, if you, if you feel called to be of service in the world as a lightworker, if you're re, if you're listening to this series and you're thinking. Michelle is really speaking to me. I, I never necessarily called myself a lightworker, but I am. I am, I am. You know, it is part of my gift is helping people have a transformation, whether you're a massage therapist or a Reiki practitioner, or a yoga teacher, or a therapist. Therapist, or. You work with animals or you know you're a chef or a mindset coach or there's so many different ways that you can be doing transformational healing work. You can be, uh, you can work at a bank. You can bag groceries. Yeah. Account. Exactly. There's a million different, in fact, I would argue that being a light worker is unrelated to niche profession. What type of job or profession? It's about showing up in the world. Yeah, it's making a difference. It's about timing really, and showing people the way, and I think, you know. Traditionally, there have been belief systems built around healing work. Um, I think we all inherited these belief systems about, you know, energy transformation and or lightworker type, you know, personalities like the archetype of a lightworker and how. That's honest is not associated with money and business and sales and that very masculine thing. But the reality is that, and as you said already, you know, the greater your impact, the more that you sale. Sales is service. So your ability to connect with people and call them into your work and help them is you doing a service. And so it's a, the mindset shift really is. Instead of me selling you something and like needing you to give me money and having this icky relationship around money and putting a dollar amount on your time and your energy, which is, I think where the real struggle comes from is like, how do you put a dollar a price tag on, you know, helping somebody awaken from an old, you know, energetic. Layer of themselves wound or a wound or something like that. Like it's really hard to put a price tag on the work and it feels kind of icky to try to do that. But the shift is that there has to be some way for them to buy in to have the transformation. So sales is just energy. It's no different than shaking hands. It is just an exchange of energy. So it could be a dollar amount for your time amount. It could be, you know, some type of an even exchange. Of, of another type, like, but at some point everybody for you to, for the transformation to occur, there needs to be buy-in from both sides. And because of the type of world that we live in, the easiest container to do that in is to create some type of spacious container, whether that be a program or an offer, you know, a session or a class or something. Just give it a shape, give it a name, and. And then ask for an exchange and you could put a price tag on it, or you could say, or something of equal value that I want to receive in exchange for my time and energy. It's just if you break it down as an exchange of energy and you remove the belief systems around money and energy, it's a lot easier to serve. You know, because really, truly lightworkers are here to serve. Mm-hmm. And you're serving in some capacity whether or not you're getting paid for it. So. The idea of being compensated for your time and your energy is that when you are well taken care of as the healer and the lightworker, you have the capacity to expand and reach more people. So, as you said really beautifully, Michelle, you know your ability to grow your income gives you more. You have more literally capital with which to. Build something that allows you to reach more people and do more light work and have a greater impact and heal more people, help more people have a transformation. So it's actually a very positive, powerful thing to get paid for your work and to conduct sales and. You know, I think there are some very basic steps that you can do to kind of audit your own energy and notice where there are blocks coming up. Um, I actually, I was mentioning this to you before, but I'll tell you now again, I, for my own clients, my private coaching client groups. Um, I was seeing this over and over again where people were really struggling with the sales piece. So they would do an amazing job at offer creation. I would help them walk through the tech pieces and really set up these automated systems for, you know, creating an audience and inviting people into an audience. You know, having an email list where it's really easy to just send a little note once a week and be like, Hey, this is how I'm doing. How are you doing? Just basic nurturing, right? Keeping in touch with these people in a, in a proprietary way. And then there's the sales piece, and we'd get to the sales piece and there would be a lot of resistance and blocks. Mm. So I created a six, a private podcast. It's a six episode private series called, uh, the Premium Client Energetic Self-Audit. Mm. And this really just walks you through one step at a time. Where might you be blocked around connecting with those ideal clients and being comfortable saying, yeah, my work is $2,000. Yeah. My work is $250 an hour. Yeah. My work is, you know, just easily saying the value of your time and energy and leading them to that exchange with confidence. Uh, once you arrive at that place where you're like. Absolutely, I'd love to support you in this way. This is how I work with people. This is what it costs. This is how I onboard clients. This is the shape of my container. This is what I look for. In exchange like that, what the easier that becomes for you, the more impact you can have, the more help you can give, the more lives transformed, and that is what you're here to do. So if somebody out there listening is like, I want to do. This type of work for people, or I wanna build a business offer, but I'm stuck on how to price it or how to sell it, and I feel really uncomfortable with that. This energetic self-audit just guides you with like some journal prompts and some questions through where might you be blocked and can you let go of these limiting beliefs around. Exchanging value, you know? Mm. I love that. Honestly, sales is service. The more you sell, the more you can serve. Mm-hmm. True. And if you're here to serve, you feel called to serve, then you have to embrace the sales piece of it. And I mean, you can certainly outsource sales. There are entire agencies that do that kind of work. But my belief personally is that solopreneurs and entrepreneurs won't even be successful with a sales team if you don't energetically feel aligned. Mm-hmm. And that alignment comes from having confidence in your work. As a healer, as a lightworker and being really comfortable saying what that value looks like for you. And I'm really like, I abs I'm actually really find, um, I'm really interested in ethical sales, so it really matters to me. Mm-hmm. Like when I'm, when I'm talking to somebody or you know, I just had a call at somebody interested in wanting to join my program and I'm like. What is, is this good for you? I, I, I think I can't say enough about dropping the energy of scarcity, dropping the energy of like needing somebody to do something. And maybe this is my therapy background. I'm sure it is. It has helped guide me here very quickly, but I, I just. I as a lightworker, as healers, as, you know, whether you're designing homes or whether you're out selling them, you know, like whatever your job is, there's ways to do it, that you can stay and in your integrity, and there's a ways you can do it where you're still being, your, your inner lightworker is being served, or you are like stepping forward and saying, you know, I'm here to. I'm here to be a light. I'm here to show the path. I'm here to help you, and this has to be absolutely your free will. Like I'm not gonna trick you or pressure you or get you to like try to get you to say yes, and maybe you'll regret it later, maybe you won't, but I got your money, right? So there's this. Shift that's happening from, on a conscious level. And I know that that's also something that you really, uh, embrace and I really honor that. And then, and I admire that. I think that's really, really important right now, especially during these times. Yeah, I think the easiest equation or the easiest way to think about that, about ethical sales, as, you know, sort of as a concept. Is, how would you like to feel if you were in the market for a service? Mm-hmm. And if you don't like the feeling of being told that you're missing out, and if you don't like the feeling of being told, everybody's doing it this way and you're the only one that's not. And if you don't like the feeling of being, you know, kind of like the FOMO tactics that are very, very, very traditional bro marketing, and I say bro marketing because. Unfortunately, all marketing systems that have been, you know, have textbooks written about them that are being taught in college courses come from masculine archetypes. And so that is rapidly, especially with the, with the advent of AI and how things, how much information is now just easily available. It's shifting and, and there's a lot of people talking about. How that no longer works. And so there's a way to do, there's a way to create the energy of momentum and to invite people who are ready to make a decision ethically without. The fear mongering and without the scarcity mentality and the two, the two tools that I see working really, really well. First of all, transparency and authenticity. You cannot. That is going. That's the key, especially for people who are energy workers, healers, lightworkers, your authentic message is what we really want from you. We don't want slick marketing. We don't want, you know, these slick, you know, sales tactics. Nobody, nobody wants that in any industry, in any niche. It's just that that's all there ever was. And so people learned that and then taught that? Yes. But what we really want is to understand. Clearly and without a lot of, you know, wasting of time. How will you help me go from where I am now to where I need to be? You know, if somebody is considering working with you or wants to buy something from you, they just need information. They need to know how long is it gonna take for me to get the result I'm after, um, you know. How many hours of my own time do I have to invest to get this result? If it's a receiving type role, like a massage, you know, is there prep that I should be doing before I get to the session? You know, if there's, there's all different kinds of information pieces that you can put into your marketing so that it speaks for you, you know? Mm-hmm. So that people can just, like, if they scroll to your Instagram page, the top three pinned posts, tell people who you are and how you serve a, a, an example, like a case study of how. Somebody that you've worked with got a transformation that's much like the one that they might be seeking, and then just frequently asked questions that answer all their questions, put it all right out there. Be transparent with your pricing. Oh, be transparent with how you shape a container and what you expect in exchange. It drives me crazy when people don't put their pricing out. They wanna get on a phone call with you before they're gonna let you know their pricing interest. Yeah. I, I find that to be, I don't love it element of, of, of like poor ethics around marketing and sales because mm-hmm. Like there, there are, there are, there are psychological reasons that human beings make a purchase. Okay? Yes. And everybody, you can look this up online. This is all free information. We know as marketers and salespeople that there are certain triggers that are going to cause a person to feel like they want to take an action, and the sort of icky side of sales is manipulating those triggers. The ethical side of sales is understanding those triggers and then literally being just very transparent about what the, what parts of your business align with those, those natural instincts in a human being. So, mm-hmm. For, for example, Michelle, if, let's say, if. You know, let's just take a health coach for example. So you have, let's say, a three to six month coaching program, and your focus is, let's say, helping people learn to cook the plant-based diet. That's something that I did a lot of work around. Uh, it's, it's, it's big transformation for people because you're asking them to change a behavior and behavioral change is the hardest thing to sell. Mm-hmm. So it's not small potatoes, it's not like. You. You know, if you were selling a haircut and somebody's paying you 40 bucks before they go in, you have long hair when they come out, you have a haircut with a style. It's, it's a pretty cut and dry package of what you're selling. You're selling a haircut or hair coloring. But when you're selling transformation, such as go from, you know, the standard American diet to eating in a way that's aligned with your health goals, well, not only are they changing the food that's on their plate, they're changing their entire belief systems around. Number one, what, what like. You know what? The food, the, the meaning of the food, they're changing their behavior on a daily basis. It's, it's big transformation work. It's not small work. And to get people to do that, a lot of times they need to have skin in the game. They won't do the work if they haven't paid or put some type of investment on the line that forces them to show up. And so charging people for that type of work, that type of behavioral change, transformational work, is the only way they'll do it. And making assumptions about whether they can or cannot afford something, you know, is, is, uh, not, not a, it's not fair, you know, making any assumptions like, oh, this is too much. You know, that recognizing that that actually is belittling, that is actually not in service. And so, but your only job in terms of marketing that is to show ethically mm-hmm. How that work is going to get done. The type of exchanges that you'll have, the type of. Program that you're offering, the type of sacrifices they might need to make, like really just put it all out there. You know, I mean, people ask me all the time, like, will this work for me, uh, when they come into my program? And I, the honest answer is only if they have the capacity to show up and do the work. Yeah. And so That's so true. I'm telling you a program that I know will not get you any results if you don't have time and space. Mm-hmm. Because I could easily say, yeah, work for anybody in any niche, in any business. Not true. It only works for people who have a certain capacity in their lives to think, to journal, mm-hmm. To take action, to take steps to become more visible. It's actually a big ask. I'm asking you to show up in a new way. And, and build all these little, you know, offer components or build a, a lead, you know, a way to attract people and a way to sell to them. So you need the capacity. Yeah. And that's gold right there, Debra, that's gold. Because you are letting us know, this is something you might wanna really tease out. With people who are coming in and want your help Right. Is really teasing out their capacity and that that's, and that that is an important thing that I also have been doing is like really getting clear on that. Like, how much time do you really have? Yeah. And what are you willing and really getting into what, what are you willing to do? Yeah. This is gonna be transformational work. Yeah. To do that, you need a little bit of time. Each data to integrate, to process. Yeah. Transformation doesn't happen unless you have time and space and willingness. Yeah. So you can want the end result. Yeah. But you can't just buy it. Yes. You need to actually do you yourself, taking action, making decisions, shifting beliefs, you know, allowing yourself to slowly become more visible and seen for the work you do. That's your work. I can guide, I can show you step by step how to do it, but you have to actually do it. I can't do it for you. What I can do for you might be more mechanical stuff, like build the actual sales pages and like sh, you know, set up your technological automations or whatever. There's some done for you stuff that can happen. But what I can, what no one can do for you is sit quietly with yourself and ask yourself, am I ready to be seen? Mm. Am I ready to serve at this level? What is my capacity? Mm-hmm. What do I have space for in my life? What am I willing to sacrifice that's on you? And if you feel called and if you identify as a lightworker, I think it's one step even further than that, which is, how can I protect this? In addition to building, you know, whatever the business looks like, which can be very simple. It doesn't have to be some big, you know, multi-tiered technical automation systems like. At some point, if you grow huge and you have a ton of people that want what you have and you need a team and you need, you know, really sophisticated, you know, websites and automations, great. That's a great problem to have. But when you're first starting out, you don't need any of that. Like a lot of my clients launch with no tech at all, zero. Mm-hmm. They just have clarity on how they're gonna serve and the ability to clearly. Speak those parameters and that container, and that's really all you need. You can do it with very basic systems outside of that. Amazing. And I think there's a lot of people that really wanna hear that right now because they're like kind of sta scared to start and getting stuck in the fact that, you know, that feels all very overwhelming. And so I love that you are really clarifying that you. Start with so little. Yeah. So we wanna wrap up here because I wanna be conscious of the time and your time, but I, I, I love this conversation. I really think we need to end it by letting people know any, anything more about how they can work with you, because you are really, really good at helping people with the structures and the things we're talking about here. The, all the stuff we're talking about here could be really, helpful for those people that are in those places. Right. Yeah. So I know we talked about the private podcast. Yes. I'll link that in the show notes. Okay. Is there anything else you wanna mention? Yeah, I mean, I have lots of free resources for people who are. Figuring out, uh, and sorting out where they're at in the, in the process. So my podcast is called Mindset to Market, and it's weekly, I do interviews and also solo episodes, and it's all geared towards helping women solopreneurs navigate these very issues, these very decisions. And sometimes it's like a how to practical episode. Other times it's much more. Just sort of soulful chats around, the energetics and the mindset of being a human being in the world, trying to, grow something beautiful, profitable, and impactful. I also have a, a few free trainings that are just, videos that are like live on my website that anyone can watch anytime. I have a really great training that I've recently published, um, around how to craft a signature offer. And by signature offer, I just mean something bespoke that sets you apart from, in a lane of your own, in the online marketplace. So it helps you to just get more clear how you wanna show up, who you wanna connect with, who is an ideal client, and what makes your, your offer, meaning the thing that you exchange in exchange for money, whatever that looks like is whether it's a session, a program, a product. It helps you really shape that so that it does stand out as unique and and bespoke. Um, and I'm happy to share the link to that training. It's really helpful. And I teach free classes on a weekly basis just to kind of open the doors and meet people. That's a big way that I connect with people around how I serve. Um, so there's, that stuff is all lives on my website, which is debra c smith.com. It's D-E-B-O-R-A-H, the letter C, and then S-M-I-T-H. Um, and we'll, obviously I'll give you that link for the show notes. Um, but I would say, you know. Those free trainings are designed really to just to support people in making some decisions around how they wanna show up. And, you know, Michelle, just to circle back to the very first thing that you brought up on this, on this episode, I think that right now is a, is a difficult time for everyone. Visibility feels pretty terrifying going live on your Instagram feed or on your LinkedIn profile and talking about your business while there's like such. Really tragic things happening right in the midst. You know, online and everywhere we look, the news cycle is very, it's scary, it really is. We're in a scary time and I think it's very difficult for many, many people. So you're definitely not alone in feeling that way. So if you feel those feelings of like, how do I show up and talk about my business when, you know, we're basically in the brink of a civil war or all these things, well start your day thinking about the one person. Who is out there that you could help and just take five, 10 minutes every morning to envision that person, who is he or she? What are they struggling with, and how could you help them, whether they pay you or not. If you go into the online space or into the marketplace in, you know, online marketing with them in mind, and just one person and one singular way that you can help them. And you, and you say, I'm gonna show up today to serve and I'm thinking about that one person, and that's all I'm here to do. And speak to that one person with your content. You can it, it shake, it shifts everything. You can be confident that they're out there and they need to hear what you had to say and just. Remind yourself that you are in service to that one person and speak to that one person. And that should help eliminate the fear of, you know, any negative feedback from people or whatever, because you're doing something to help and that's gonna automatically attract the people who need you. Uh, I love it, Debra. That is beautiful advice. It's really, it's really right on, and it's a lot of what I do myself and just really knowing who I'm talking to, who I'm here to serve, and understanding that regardless of what's happening in the environment, whatever's happening in the world is. Is that person's soul. That person's journey is still craving what you have, what I have, what you have, right? And so we are here to help build each other up and I absolutely love it. Thank you so much, Deborah. This was so amazing to have you on the show. Again, I always love chatting. We could talk for hours about all sorts of things, so thank you for joining us though. Thank you for all your time. Yes. And we'll, uh, I'll make sure everything's in the show notes. And for those of you listening, have a wonderful week. I'll look forward to seeing you next week. Bye for now.