MasterStroke with Monica Enand & Sejal Pietrzak

Authenticity in Brand Marketing with Wildfang Founder & CEO Emma McIlroy

• Emma McIlroy - CEO, WILDFANG • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Get ready to be amazed by the brilliance of a marketing genius!

WIldfang Founder & CEO Emma Mcilroy join Monica and Sejal to share her incredible journey from Cambridge University to establishing Wildfang, a groundbreaking gender-fluid clothing brand. They discuss how her experiences at Nike and Barclays shaped her vision for Wildfang, a company dedicated to inclusivity and sustainability. They also highlight Wildfang’s impressive achievements, including raising over a million dollars for various charities and earning the climate-neutral certification.

In this episode, they delve into the intricacies of brand marketing and examine how brands can genuinely engage with the Queer community beyond one month a year.

The episode ends with an incredible story of joy: a story that earned Emma and everyone who answered her call a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records  and raised over three hundred thousand dollars for the Trevor Project.

 

Georgianna Moreland - Creator, Executive Producer & Managing Editor;
Matt Stoker - Editor


Emma McIlroy:

It's a 24-7 thing, Monica. It's a consumer group who are affecting a broader zeitgeist that, if we're going to be marketers and consumer brands, we need to deeply understand.

Georgianna Moreland:

Welcome to Masterstroke with Monica Enid and Sejo Petrzak Conversations with founders, ceos and visionary leaders in tech and beyond.

Monica Enand:

Emma is an incredibly impressive person. She's a personal friend of mine, who I'm lucky to say, but she's impressive in so many ways. She graduated Cambridge University with a degree in natural science. She's a marketing genius who has done brand marketing at Nike and Barclays before she started Wildfang. She was named one of Inc's female founder 100. She was Oregon's Entrepreneur of the Year and Executive of the Year by Portland Business Journal and her TED talk. Sejal, I know you watched her TED talk.

Sejal Pietrzak:

I watched it, you know it has over 100,000 views.

Monica Enand:

It's amazing, it's a must see.

Emma McIlroy:

I'm going to take you everywhere, Monica. You're going to do my introduction everywhere from now on. That's it. You're just coming in my back pocket.

Monica Enand:

I haven't even started telling them about how amazing you are as a lifeguard, as a swimming coach or as a kayaking coach all the things you've done for me.

Emma McIlroy:

You're also. You're very little, so I probably could put you in my back pocket.

Sejal Pietrzak:

Well Emma, Monica, and I believe business is a force for good and you have been an amazing role model for that. So, in addition to being a place where women and non-binary people can come to find amazing gender fluid clothing, wild Fang has raised over a million dollars for charities that focus on racial justice, as well as queer, immigrant and women's rights. It's incredible, emma. So, before we get started learning all about these exciting things you've been doing, talk to us a little bit about Wildfang. And you just received the climate neutral certification, which you know obviously is incredible. Tell us a little bit about that.

Emma McIlroy:

Yeah, that certification is actually pretty tough to get, especially for small businesses like ours. So, when you look at the topic of sustainability, which is a really broad topic and I certainly don't claim to be any kind of guru or expert in that area, but what I do know is it matters to our customers and it matters to our audience and our consumers a lot, and so we obviously have to have to ensure that we're meeting their needs. And so, for a business like ours, the truth is, you know, at the end of the day, we send, sell apparel the truth is there's two ways to do apparel really sustainably One is naked, so don't wear any, and then the other is shop vintage, so don't buy any, right? So if you're not going to do one of those two things, if you're not going to be naked all the time or you're not just going to wear vintage, then you need a third option.

Emma McIlroy:

And for a business like ours, where we you know I used to be at Nike we don't have an enormous team of scientists and people on the cutting edge, really the best thing you can do is offset your impact and also reduce your impact. Those are kind of the two big focuses. So what you do when you work with the climate neutral team to gain your certification is first, you share all the details of your business and they calculate your impact on the world, your carbon impact on the world and your carbon footprint, and the first thing they help you do is set an annual plan to reduce that impact.

Sejal Pietrzak:

Yeah, it's such an important thing. I mean learning about how much of an impact the fashion industry makes in a negative way to our environment one of the top few industries impacting our environment and it's great to see that you've gotten that climate neutral certification for everything you're doing.

Emma McIlroy:

Yeah, I think we all have a responsibility to leave less of a footprint on this thing. That supports us, right.

Monica Enand:

Absolutely. And so tell us about Wildfang. How did you get started with it? You know you're talking about clearly. You're talking about how you run a business in a way that is in concert with your values. Talk to us about Wildfang and how that works into your life with your values. Talk to us about Wildfang and how that works into your life and your values.

Emma McIlroy:

Well, wildfang is a mission-based company. So, you know, I think actually you and I have had this conversation about I think the phraseology of work-life balance is no longer relevant. I think now we're in the age of work-life integration. I don't think most people want to turn a key and walk away from a thing and pick it up again 12 hours later, right, like I think, especially when you look at Gen Z and millennials, they really want to have their values reflected in all that they do include in their work, right? So for me, wildfying is really at the core of who I am and I'm at the core of who wildfying is, and I think true for most founders. So, yeah, it's a mission-based business.

Emma McIlroy:

It all started by, uh, walking into the men's department at Urban Outfitters and realizing that all of the really good blazers, uh, for women, were there, the ones with, like, the real pockets that you can fit more than just your fingernails, you know, um, and the real, the real buttons and the great tailoring and the great lining and other silhouettes like button-ups, all that great tailoring that for some reason was reserved for men and hidden from us as women. So it really started by kind of walking through the men's department and being like why are these silhouettes specifically reserved for folks of a certain gender identity? That doesn't really make sense. Our belief is that when you do that and when you allow people to show up exactly as they want to show up, you release a ton of potential, and you release potential from the human population, and we think that's a good thing for everyone, so important.

Sejal Pietrzak:

So what kinds of challenges did you run into when you were first starting your company Wildfang?

Emma McIlroy:

I mean, I don't know that the podcast is long enough for that.

Monica Enand:

Well, you started 10 years ago right Over 10 years.

Emma McIlroy:

Yeah, 10 years, 10 years, I'm an old hand, I guess now so, or or a stupid one. Right, depends on how you think about it. Yeah, I mean, look, I think the obvious one is money and funding. I didn't take any money from venture capital. It certainly wasn't some sort of educated choice. That's because most of them embarrassed me and laughed me out of the room. So, you know, I remember going to some of my first. I'm not going to put a name on it because it wouldn't be professional, but I remember going to some of my first venture capital meetings, and I was a kid fresh out of Nike. You can probably tell that I don't.

Emma McIlroy:

I didn't grow up in the US. My alumni, as you mentioned, is Cambridge, it's not here. I didn't have a huge support system or a huge network in the capital, and so I didn't really know what I was doing. And so I showed up with this deck and talked about what my vision was for the brand and for this future for women everywhere, and people would hit me with well, what's your CAC? What's your CAC lifetime value ratio? Me with well, what's your CAC? What's your CAC lifetime value ratio? What's your first order? You know economics. What percentage of your business do you think is going to come from outside of the US?

Emma McIlroy:

And I remember with a pen, this particular partner, a very, very big consumer, consumer, venture capital group in the US. I remember just writing notes and and I remember saying what's lifetime value and what's CAC, how do you spell CAC? And I think I wrote C-A-C-K, which is pretty funny at the time, right, but I tell you that story because I guess for two reasons. The first is I see a large part of my job in the world, you know, for as long as I'm around, is to change that, and so I try to welcome people into spaces who don't know what all those terms mean, to share with them everything I know. Because the reality is, you know, it's funny you sign NDAs all day long and stuff like that. I mean, unless you're working on some highly patented which obviously, monica, you have a lot of experience with but unless you're working on something highly patented, any idea has been had before. You know it's all about great execution. There's not really anything particularly unique or special that most of us are doing. It's about, about the team, the culture, the execution and the ability to connect those ideas with a consumer.

Emma McIlroy:

The biggest lesson for me in 10 years is stick to your strength and block out the noise, and it's taken me a long time to learn that, and I think many women struggle with whether it's imposter syndrome or just a lack of confidence. You know, I'm a very good brand marketer. That's what I'm world class at. Everything else I'm either not very good at or I'm average at. And so when you are, I think most women are aware of their weaknesses. Most women are aware of where they could do better and have spent their whole life trying to be better. And so when you hear a really great merchandising strategy from another company or how another company is really winning through whitelisting in meta or whatever the functional tactic is, it takes a lot of strength to say that's great for them, I'm so happy for them, that's awesome.

Monica Enand:

Emma, you said what your world-class, your world-class marketing or brand marketing. What is that brand marketing? Sometimes, for technical people like me, I was like what does that even mean? And I mean I know what brands are and I know that people marketing. Sometimes, for technical people like me, I was like what does that even mean? And I I mean I know what brands are and I know that people market, but I and I watch Mad Men but like, but I don't like.

Monica Enand:

What I realized when I met you 10 years or so ago was it? You're a visionary about trends that are happening in the world and in people's lives is, I think it's important to people to for people to know. You started this in 2013,. Right, when somebody said non-binary or gender fluid in 2013, I like I've learned and I hope I think most of the world has learned so much more about gender in the last 10 years, but you were kind of on the forefront of all of that right and understanding.

Monica Enand:

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because you know, in Pride Month actually I'm going to compound this question, so then you can answer both, because here I sit in Pride Month and we all see all the logos with rainbows on them, and then we see all the merchandising and people trying to sell. So like I'm trying to understand, like why are brands doing that and how is how is it that what? Like, what were you seeing and doing with Wild Fang? That that you feel is kind of different? I see it as very different. I love that.

Emma McIlroy:

See, that's a classic CEO. Right there, you were like I'm going to ask two questions. You actually asked like six, so you squeezed in the other four for good measure. I'm going to start in order. What does a brand marketer do? A brand marketer is someone who understands how a consumer understands and can affect how a consumer thinks and feels and believes. That's it. And those things, if you do them correctly, should change buying habits and should change interaction with your product or service. Right, but thinking, feeling, believing and that requires tremendous consumer insight to be able to do that. So you have to spend a lot of time with your consumer. You have to know them intimately, you have to love them. You have to love them because if you you have to love them. You have to love them Because if you love them, then that stuff comes easier. So you know, that's what a brand marketer does. Hopefully, on the other end of it, you create really great content, experiences that connect with your consumer because of how well you know them In terms of you know. It's funny. You mentioned the language.

Emma McIlroy:

When Wildfang started 10 years ago, it didn't look like this. You know what we knew was the space and what we knew, and I really deeply appreciate you saying we were ahead of the curve. I feel like we were ahead of the curve on a number of conversations, but we didn't get them all right. You know. I think that's a really important thing to point out, because being a great brand marketer means you can feel where the zeitgeist is going. It means you can feel how the zeitgeist is going. It means you can feel how the zeitgeist is changing. You can feel, like I said, how they think and feel and believe and what is changing about that. It doesn't mean you get the perfect execution. To get the perfect execution you need a lot of trial and error and you need to be brave, as with anything that you're at the front of right. So I would just caveat it that just because we think we're good at it doesn't mean we've got it right all the time. But the conversation around gender, gender expression, gender identity has changed just. I mean I couldn't have predicted, I knew it was going to change. I didn't know it was going to change at this rate. It's been truly wild and you know Gen Z has really pushed that, you know. But we simply put we celebrate your mask, your fam and everything in between. And when we say mask and fam, it's just a more bite-sized version of masculine and feminine. Those words have baggage.

Emma McIlroy:

The way that we've tried to stay ahead of that conversation curve is listen to the consumer and address their needs as those needs change. So if you're just listening to this and you are a straight-up capitalist who just wants to make money, the audience is growing every year. If we're going to talk about Pride Month, there is a benefit to understanding that consumer group 24-7. Forget Pride Month, because they are going to have a lot of spend and power and they are going to have a lot of wallet share. But, more importantly, they are shaping how their peers also think, and I think you're seeing that. You're seeing that in sport, you're seeing it in fashion, you're seeing it all over the place, right.

Emma McIlroy:

And so, yes, I'll answer the question about Pride Month. But it's a 24-7 thing, monica. It's a consumer group who are affecting a broader zeitgeist that, if we're going to be marketers and consumer brands, we need to deeply understand. We make sure that diversity shows up in the money that we give back, in the money that we give back, in the models that we use, in the internal candidates that we hire, in our hiring practices. Right Like that's our point of view Now. Does that mean that I want to be the Grinch and say that pride should go away? Absolutely not. It's super important that we recognize and celebrate that moment, but for us it's a 24-7 practice.

Sejal Pietrzak:

You're a founder, you're a CEO and now you're a Guinness Book of World Record holder. Talk a little bit about how you did that and what inspired you to break the Guinness record for the longest drag show ever.

Emma McIlroy:

What was that and how did all of that work? Yeah, so that was last year. It was an incredible, incredible effort from my team and from very close friends of the brand Eden, dawn and Poison Waters. And so, really, what happened was some marketing campaigns you like to set in advance and you like to plan for, and those are usually ones with product collaborations and product partnerships, because product takes time to make. But then sometimes you know that you just need to react to what's happening in the world, and that tends to be some of the most powerful zeitgeist marketing that people you know align it aligns well with viral moments or virality, if you want to use that term, but things that catch fire because the audience is thinking and feeling it right.

Emma McIlroy:

At that time, as we progress through 2023, feeling it right at that time, as we progress through 2023, it became clear that any LGBTQ legislation was given traction. So, year over year, there were triple the number of pieces of legislation introduced that in some way, shape or form, attacked the queer community. Do I have some level of responsibility to show up when an important chunk of my community is hurting and feeling pain? Yeah, I think I do, especially if I can be part of a solution to that, and so those are the moments where you have to go back to your brand values. You have to go back to your consumer and decide what's right for you individually to do as a brand, and for us it was right to take a stand. Now. We didn't want to meet hit with hit, and a number of pieces of this legislation were really aggressive and, frankly, I struggled to find any. I read the legislation in detail. I read all of the drag legislation in detail from every state and I struggled to see really what it was that was driving those from a common sense perspective, and so we didn't want to. You know, we had a ton of ideas as a team on how to react to, but anything that was driven by hate got kind of washed away or thrown off the table. We wanted to meet what we saw as hate in the legislation with joy and celebration. Depends on the day that you pick the three of us. We could all technically be at fault on that.

Emma McIlroy:

On that claim Right, because when you talk about cross-dressing in some of that legislation, it means wearing a piece of clothing that is misaligned with your gender identified at birth. I mean, okay, so I was identified at birth female. I mean, it's a pantsuit. Am I crossing boundaries there? Should I be arrested? We felt like it was conversation. We wanted to take part and we find this world record. It was 36 hours for the world's longest drag show in history.

Emma McIlroy:

And I phoned my friend, poison waters, um, who is one of the longest serving uh drag hosts in america at darshels in portland. And then I phoned my other friend, uh, eden dawn, who is an amazing event producer and also loves drag, and I said would you all be stupid enough to try to pull off this world record with me? And you know, I said to poison if, do you think it's even possible to do a drag show for 48 hours? And poison said, in true poison fashion baby, I could do it by myself in 48 hours. It was just this crazy, crazy intense uh event.

Emma McIlroy:

And then, um, as I started phoning people, uh, who obviously had similar values to us, they stupidly said yes, right. So Cheryl Strayed said yes. John Cameron Mitchell said yes. Punky Jensen from SNL said yes. Cameron Esposito said yes, right. Like everybody we phoned was kind of like. Fred Armisen said yes. Kari Brownstein said yes. Like everybody we phoned was like I'll be involved. How can I help? Right? Monica was stupid enough to say yes, I'll do whatever I can to support right. Right Local business got behind it, mcs got behind it, drag queens got behind it and so, yeah, it was 48 hours of nonstop drag.

Emma McIlroy:

So I think I got about two and a half hours sleep over the 48 hours. 600 songs, 60 MCs, 60 plus queens. It was utterly bonkers. We did raise $310,000 for the Trevor Project, which we're super proud of. That's an incredible charity that provides literally life-saving services for the queer community.

Emma McIlroy:

And then, from a business perspective because this is a business podcast we saw our lowest CAC in three years. The sentiment that it created made all of our acquisition channels significantly more productive. We saw our highest press hits in a given month. I think we got 109 press hits in that month and, by the way, press is me at Wildfine in association to all the other stuff I do. We don't have a big fancy agency or anything else. So, yeah, it was just kind of, you know, it was just kind of this wild ride that ended up being really good for us.

Emma McIlroy:

And, and, if you'd asked me, when I pitched my leadership team, I had this idea and I pitched the leadership team and I pitched the company. By the way, my whole company, everybody at Wildfine worked security or ushers or you know. They did all these crazy jobs and stayed up overnight just to pull this thing off on a shoestring budget. You know, I said here's the idea, here's why we should do it. I'm not sure it's the right decision. We could only do it if we all say yes. Everybody, the whole team, said yes, the whole team, including the CFO, including Karen Mollis, the CFO, you know, including the person with the paybook. She said yes, this is the right thing to go and spend $125,000 on, because we believe in our brand and our community, right, and so it was a really beautiful moment for us. I'm super proud of it. But I do think we're in a time and place where consumer brands are going to be forced to decide where they stand on their values.

Monica Enand:

Yeah Well, congratulations to you. What an amazing accomplishment, you and Eden and Poison. What an amazing accomplishment you and Eden and Poison. I have to say it was such a joyful story and a joyful time and everybody who was part of it, I think, took so much joy from it, and I think that's what drag brings a lot of people. It's a form of entertainment that just brings a lot of joy to anybody who's watching or participating.

Emma McIlroy:

What you think. You have it tough in Oregon or California and then you hear some of the conversations of being in the queer community in rural Tennessee. That's like. That's like the real, real right. Like that's when you really start to understand the extent of of the pain in the community. They don't fight battles through here because it's not how they're wired and they don't believe in it, you know. And that's when you really look at consumer brands the most powerful, lasting consumer brands have been built on positivity, um, and so it's a super important part of building a brand right.

Emma McIlroy:

And so that was cool. It's cool to see that in the face of the shit storm that they're like I'm gonna go out there and serve love, I'm gonna go out there and do do me every day, you know, um. So so I think you know, I think that's what you get from the Queens, and they were spectacular. I cannot, for every queen or king who performed for us at that event, I can only say, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. So it's funny because you say my names on it, but like it doesn't feel like my record. Like that record was Portland's, that record was all of those Queens Like that's who made it happen.

Sejal Pietrzak:

It's so interesting. Congratulations I know Monica said it as well. That's a really exciting and memorable you know for the rest of your life and everyone who is involved and everyone who got to be a part of it A memory for forever. If you take the business side of it, you know there is this large audience. What do executives need to know to be able to reach out in the right way to the queer community, to be able to build business with them? Can you talk a?

Emma McIlroy:

little bit about that. You know free advice is worth what you paid for it. So let's see how this goes. But I think there's a couple of things. One is who is your audience and who is your community and understanding them really well, and where identity and expression comes into that. So I think that's the first thing, because that'll tell you how important this audience is for your business's success. I think the second thing is going back to your brand values, which should be timeless, which should be true over time. Hopefully, anyone running a major consumer brand or a consumer DTC company has those outlined. And so I think when you start to look at who is your consumer, who are you here to serve, what are you here to do for them and what are your brand values, ie, how are you going to operate and bring that mission to life? I think that sort of frames up where these conversations fall in terms of importance for you.

Emma McIlroy:

We had two moments last year, one with Anheuser-Busch and one with Target, which I think scared the hell out of every public company CEO in America and it's really unfortunate that, a those happened and B that that was a reaction to it, and I'm not going to go into detail because you can Google it, but both brands saw financial performance and share and execution and they didn't understand their consumer well enough. What you saw as a reaction from the market, particularly in public companies, was everybody ran for the hills in terms of working with the queer community or supporting it, because they didn't know how to do it in the right way. Inverted commas mind people that that could have happened with any community where you didn't do the appropriate amount of insight work, you didn't take time to get to know the community and and you didn't do the correct market and planning. Uh, that resulted in weak execution, right, and so my advice to you would be get to know your consumer, spend time with them. I mean it's so funny because people go out and hire like insight agencies and that's not great and I've led that work. But like I mean you can walk into your store, you can get into your customer service inbox, you can get onto your chat, get on twitter, you can read the comments on your paid ads like it's not very hard to understand what your consumer wants or how they feel outside of just these moments.

Emma McIlroy:

For sure, it's pretty obvious that there are commercial moments in the year that people can capitalize on. I would urge some caution against that. Not that you shouldn't show up in those moments, but Gen Z in particular, and the later millennials, the younger millennials, are demanding a much more authentic approach. They are demanding integrity in their spaces, and so that means you don't just show up for a month a year. You think about who you're hiring and your hiring practices. You think about who's in front of the camera, who's behind the camera, and again, it doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to acknowledge that the community has value beyond their wallet in one month a year, right, and so that'd be my second thing.

Emma McIlroy:

And then my third thing, which I've touched on, is is imperfection. Please don't be scared of imperfection. You know, monica mentioned language earlier. I've messed up so many times on language. I can't tell you right, but. But the question is are you listening and learning, you know, or are you defensive and close off? Right, and that's just a question of good marketing. That's got nothing to do with the queer community. That's just a question of, when you mess up, do you own it, do you take accountability for it? Uh, do you listen and do you try and do it better the next time, like that's it, but I think the fear of perfection leads people to not touch some of these topics at all, and that's terribly sad because the queer community in particular um, I'm white, so I I can't necessarily speak on behalf of some other communities, but the queer community in particular is under immense threat and I think it needs folks to show up particularly allies.

Monica Enand:

I think that's really important advice and I think you know some people could listening, and you know I'm first of all the fear of imperfection. It's real. I mean I understand we all understand Like we all are scared to maybe get it wrong, and we've seen examples of people getting it wrong and really hurting. You know harm coming from that, and so I think that's real. But I don't think it's an optional journey.

Monica Enand:

I think the way you're talking about it is very much if you're a consumer brand, but the truth is, I think it's true for everyone, because we're all going to have employees. I mean, this community is going to impact every aspect of life, and so you're not going to be able to just pull a whatever wool over your head or I don't know what it, stick your head in the sand or something. You can't just say like I'm not going to engage in this. You're going to have to engage in this, and so you're going to have to iterate and get better. All executives, everybody in business and everybody frankly in their personal lives are going to have to do this. So I think the quicker you get started and the quicker you stub your toe and mess up and say gosh, I'm sorry, either help me or let me do my own research to understand. I think everyone has to be on that journey. So, emma, where do we go from here?

Sejal Pietrzak:

Where do you take Wildfang from here?

Emma McIlroy:

Brand-led is definitely where our focus is. We are definitely turning down the noise on some of the more traditional paid digital channels. And then on the wholesale front, wholesale really is a marketing channel for us. So it's eyeballs, not to say it doesn't contribute dollars Of course it does, but it's really by reaching a new consumer without, again, those traditional paid channels. So that's kind of where growth is coming from us strategically right now.

Emma McIlroy:

They both also sit in our wheelhouse and they allow us to bring what we're good at to other partners right, which is great sticky product that has low returns, high frequency, high lifetime value, good consumer behind it, and then a differentiated brand that, to what you've both been talking about, is sometimes hard for them to figure out what to do with. So they're like, hey, if I could tap into Wildfang and figure out how to do this stuff, maybe that's helpful for me to grow the overall business. So that's kind of what we're excited about is that brand-led activity and partnerships and then also our wholesale business, which you'll see continue to grow back half of this year and through 25.

Sejal Pietrzak:

That's really great. Congratulations on everything you've done so far and your success. It's inspiring indeed.

Monica Enand:

Thank you as you are as a human inspiring. I've always been inspired by you since I met you, so which I have known you probably a decade.

Emma McIlroy:

I appreciate that I will go down a stage five rapid with Monica and any day of the week, thank you.

Monica Enand:

As long as you go first. That's what we learned. We kayak, whitewater kayak. I, for my first time, sage I whitewater kayak and you went down stage five rapids in your first time, yeah she did and I didn't go first, not many people know about me but Emma does know is that I never learned how to swim, so I don't know how to swim.

Emma McIlroy:

Oh, my God, no, monica is just fierce, she's just a baller. And I said to her I said do you want me to go first? She's like no, I got this.

Monica Enand:

I was like her.

Emma McIlroy:

She didn't, she just crushed it. She just went straight through it crushed it. So yeah, that's what it's like to be Monica's friend.

Monica Enand:

She just jumps right in and crushes whatever's in front of her and I say stay behind me and pick me up if I fall, which you volunteered to do. So thank you so much, emma. We are so glad that you were able to take the time to be here. We appreciate you so much to really share your knowledge. You've learned so much in the last 10 years and sharing that knowledge with everybody listening I got so much out of it. So I know other people did.

Emma McIlroy:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Sejal Pietrzak:

I really appreciate it, totally agree. Thanks, monica, and thanks to our executive producer, georgiana Moreland. And again thank you, emma. And that's a wrap for this episode of Masterstroke.

Georgianna Moreland:

Thank you for listening today. We would love for you to follow and subscribe. Monica and Sejo would love to hear from you. You can text us directly from the link in the show notes of this episode. You can also find us on the LinkedIn page at Masterstroke Podcast with Monica Enid and Sejo Petrozak. Until next time.