How Play, Structure, And Compassion Rebuild Broken Attachment with Dorothy A Derapelian

What if the “defiant” behavior you’re seeing is really an attachment alarm? We sit with licensed counselor and adoptive parent Dorothy Derapellian to unpack Core Attachment Therapy, a practical, compassionate framework that steadies the home first, then rewires safety through play. Dorothy blends the Nurtured Heart Approach with developmentally sequenced attachment games so families can “go back in time,” repair early ruptures, and build the felt sense of trust kids need to thrive.

We start with a crucial reframe: when a child seems to run the house, dysregulation is usually in charge. Nurtured Heart gives caregivers structure to remove energy from problem cycles and richly recognize what’s going right. That precise, character-based recognition builds inner wealth, restores parental confidence, and cools the temperature of daily life. With the house calm and adults effective, the second phase begins: playful rituals that re-stage early bonding—from close, regulating contact to healthy separation and individuation—so children learn in their bodies that caregivers are safe and dependable.

Dorothy shares moving examples, like a child who once escalated at sirens but now instinctively seeks her mother’s arms. We talk about caregiver readiness, why parents’ own attachment injuries matter, and how to avoid reactivating abandonment by sequencing support. We also widen the lens: adoption and foster care bring unique layers of grief and unknowns, but prenatal stress, medical trauma, and modern pressures can disrupt attachment in any family. The throughline is hope: it’s never too late to heal.

If you’re a therapist or caregiver seeking concrete, relationship-first tools, you’ll leave with a roadmap you can use right away—and details on training and certification to go deeper. Listen, share with someone who needs encouragement, and tell us the one idea you’ll try this week. If you found value here, follow the show, leave a review, and pass it on so more families can find their way back to safety and connection.

A Hero's Welcome Podcast  © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Transcript

Meet Dorothy And The Mission

Liliana 1:09

Welcome back, listeners, for our next episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, Maria Cartigo, and I'm joined by my ever feisty co-host. That's me. That should be my nickname.

Maria 1:23

Liliana Balin. And we are here with a special guest. Dorothy, how do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Well, I'm Dorothy Derapellian. I am a licensed clinical mental health counselor. I have a private practice in Meredith, New Hampshire. I've been at this for 40 years. I can't believe that. When I did the math.

unknown 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Who'd have thought that? Now my plan was I'll retire when I can't get up off the floor. Well, I kept because I kept sitting on the floor and getting up for years and years and years and years. It took a fractured femur for me to say, okay, maybe let me read this. And it was a maybe. Yeah, and I'm still doing it, I'm just not sitting on the floor.

Liliana 2:07

Just phone you down. It's not stopped you yet.

Maria 2:12

Thank you for being here. Thank you for saying yes to the podcast. Dorothy, what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

I hope we're talking about core attachment therapy, which is a process I put together to help families of adoption and also for families who have children with developmental trauma. I created that process back in the late 90s, early 2000s, and nothing but success with the families that I've used it with. And it's not just for children been adopted, it's for children who have had loss and grief during their attachment development years.

Maria 2:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

And it really helps families get back to that, why I call it core attachment. It helps them get back to that core place where attachment percolates.

What Core Attachment Therapy Is

Maria 2:58

Yeah. I love that, right? Attachment bonds. We especially nowadays, it doesn't matter all the diagnosis that we have, but especially in our face, how do we come back to that core attachment bond? Oh, this is lovely. So tell us about this program that you created.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

It is uh a two-component process. The first component is the nurtured heart approach. I am an advanced trainer in that. I went to it was here in Ashua, New Hampshire, Howard Glasser, who developed court to the nurtured heart approach, was out promoting it through PESI. So I was behind in my CEUs to continue my license. As we knew back was back in the day before computers were the big thing to get your CEUs. So I was going through my desk for all the brochures, and here he was right here in my own state. So I went to it just to get my 6.5 hours of CEUs. And as I was sitting there listening to him, I thought, boy, this guy is really onto something. This just makes such sense. So I tried it with one family, tried it with another family, and success, success after another. So in 2005, I went to Tucson for a week to become an advanced trainer and have no regret to doing it because it transformed my practice and how I work with children who have intense and challenging behaviors. And then simultaneously, I was working with I am an adoptive parent too, by the way. I am I was working with foster and adoptive children, trying to figure out ways to help them heal. And I did a lot of research at the time and looking at what had been out there, and something just wasn't clicking for me. And the more I thought about it, I thought, well, attachment is a is a developmental process. We just don't come out born attached. Well, yes, we do, but yes, we don't. It has to be nurtured and all that oxytocin from the mother and vasopressin from the father and all that stuff um has to happen. If that doesn't happen, then attachment doesn't fully feel secure. So looking at the fact that attachment is a developmental process, starting in utero, of course, and then continuing on to at least three to four years, I thought all what we do has to be developmental. So I looked at Viola Brody's developmental play therapy, I looked at Theraplay, and I kind of pieced together the the good thing, not the good things, the attachment games. It's the attachment games because you have to do it in a playful way.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah.

Nurtured Heart As Foundation

SPEAKER_02 5:53

So I tweaked all of that to develop a process that mimicked the autistic phase of attachment development, the separation phase of attachment development, and the individuation phase of attachment development. So that families of adoption or any family that had attachment disruption could go back and I call it going back in time, particularly working with the older kids. We're just going to go back in time. And so we go back in time and we started that autistic phase where the parents holding the child in in their arms like this. And we just each week introduce the next game and the next game and the next game. So that it's it's developing and the attachment is getting s more and more secure. And what I've also I wasn't thinking at the time, but now that I've had witness to this for many, many families, it helps the parents. Yeah. So that's component two is the attachment games. So the reason why nurtured heart is component one for those of us who've worked with children with children who've been adopted, they are chaotic. They are so chaotic that nurtured heart helps the parents get back in charge of what's going on in the house. So once that happens, then attachment can happen because you can't start attached secure attachment if the children and their behaviors are in charge of what's going on in the household. So putting those two together has just been, it's just been such wonderful, wonderful things to see not only the children blossom, but the parents change and how they feel effective. And when they feel effective, then the love just takes over.

Liliana 7:45

Yeah, I love that. Well, yeah, it's a very systemic lens, right? Yes. And we know play therapy, a lot of play therapy trainings is very child-focused, behavioral focused of the child. And we can start there, but I love that you then pulled out and looked at the system too, because we as therapists, you know, if we're lucky and they show up for 55 minutes a week for 52 weeks or more. We, you know, parents have them all the time. And so we we definitely want to make sure that the parents have the skills and feel like they've got the authority to continue he help helping their child heal and helping themselves heal. If there's been a disruption in attachment, it does affect everybody in the system.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

It does. It does. And some families get to a certain place where they can't do it because that part of them was not healed. So that's why it's important to do a good developmental history of the parent before we start this, because if their pain is gonna percolate, I suggest they go to their therapist or a therapist first to take care of that so that we can successfully do this for their child. So I'm glad you brought that up, Maria.

Maria 8:56

And I was even thinking for all of you who are there. So this is like the evolution even of our field. We started with, right? I I was thinking in in the play therapy field, I was thinking Eliana Jill, who uh introduced family play therapy. I was thinking of even also like therapy. The idea is we don't just work with the child, we work with the system. I so I love what you're doing. I love also like EFFT when they're talking about no, we work with the system, we work with diets, which is exactly what you're naming. But but I think for all of you who are out there, when you when you hear children in charge of the house, I'm assuming we're talking about that the child is so dysregulated, the attachment ban has been broken. So because of the dysregulation, it feels like they're the drivers of the home. Like they get to dictate what happens. So a lot of times when you see this client, when you see this client or this family as a client coming in, they are just focusing on the child's behavior. It's not, they don't have access to the frontal cortex to say our attachment button is suffering. I cannot see this child as a child who is in need. And I do not see myself, I love that you use the word effective, competent to know what to do here. So, can you help us? So it's a beautiful structure that you're naming, adding from all these models in order to like this is what I like from me, it these pieces, yeah, and and let me put it together in order to help um the families that I serve. So that that was really nice. And I love your phrase, go back in time. Always, right? It's as in a core attachment when you ask a family, can we go back in time? A time when, and it's so easy for our brain to look for that inside that movie. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. When we go for that core memory of that's right when we like each other, the last time that I saw you as a child, the last time that I saw myself as loving and competent, versus in this moment that the whole system is suffering. Yeah, the whole system cannot see themselves, feel themselves, and therefore we're just lost. The chaos is taking over. So such a beautiful description of what you do.

Liliana 11:25

I love it because I do think we've there's lots of models out there, there's lots of theories out there, and and Liliana, you and I have had conversations, I I think maybe with Rose about how attachment is really the core to a lot of the diagnoses of the problematic behavior. Like if we can go back to that core attachment and how maybe it was ruptured or hurt in some way, I think that's a beautiful lens. And it's just such a compassionate lens when parents come in and they are like had it up to here with the behaviors, the schools haven't had it up to hear what the behaviors, right? There's just this frustration and tenseness, and to come in with just a such a gentle, let's look at the attachment piece, just feels so heartwarming.

unknown 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

And that's why I put nurtured heart in the process, yeah, because what the nurtured heart approach helps us do is focus on what's going right. And that's where we put our emotional energy. And as we talk about what's going right, we say, well, what does that say about who you are?

Liliana 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

So that just changes the flow of what's being focused on. Instead of focusing on the bad stuff, we focus on what's good. And what does that say about who you are? Just that what does that say about who you are really builds up what we call inner wealth, not only in the children, but in the parents to be able to see that in their children. And it just brings back the brings down the temperature of the anger and the intensity. So once the parents got that dynamic, okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to focus on what my child is doing well. Then I then we start the attachment games because if we start the attachment games where they are all up in arms and fueling what's going wrong, we're not gonna, we don't get it's not gonna be integrated. I don't want to sit on your lap when you're yelling at me.

Developmental Attachment Games

Maria 13:29

Or right, like I cannot trust to sit on your lap.

Liliana 13:33

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's an important lens, too, that a lot of the behaviors come from an insecure, an anxious, a disrupted attachment rather than they're just behaving that way to make their parents crazy, to get out of doing whatever they're supposed to. And being able to pause and go, okay, what is what is it that they're needing in my attachment to them that's is making them feel like they're missing out or they're not secure or they're not safe in this moment. And I know that you shared that this you've really started working with attach adoption and foster children in foster care, and it is expanded to those with just developmental disruptions in their attachments because I mean, there's so much that can happen in in utero in the birthing process that can disrupt that attachment, even when the parents have the best of intentions and are fully present. And I love that you've seen that and kind of expanded the lens for that.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Yeah, life does get in the way and it's not the parents' fault. So once I explain that to them, they're all in. And when they see what they missed, they are crying all the time.

Liliana 14:51

Yeah, well, I think it's so important that you share, like it's not their fault. Because I think there's a lot of blame that gets then internalized. And if that's not worked on or even acknowledged, right, that it helps fuel the constant focus on behaviors, internal shame, which then gets you know put on the kids because they don't, if you're not aware of it and you're not working on it, then you just it spills out of you.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah, yeah. And we know we usually get angry at those that make us feel incompetent or we have a lot of grief or sadness about it. So we just get anger, angry at it as a way of preserving ourselves. So it's this has been a wonderful process to help families.

Maria 15:34

Yeah, the other component that right to humanize families, to humanize the child, to humanize the adaptive parent or a caretaker, whoever you're working with. But the idea as I'm hearing you was like, oh, you're humanizing each milestone, you're humanizing each time that we question who am I and who am I in relationship with you? And how do we go back to as I'm interpreting these behaviors as something that is maladapted, when in reality it's a cry for help, I got stuck here, or I need help here, or you know, whatever, or like we were talking right before we start recording, which is the grief process of adoption. Uh, a lot of a lot of adoptions. There's not enough, even when you go for all of you who are out there, any parent who has adopted a child, they have to go through classes, they have to go to training to go through the adoption, they have to go through intakes with social workers or whoever it's a very invasive process.

Liliana 16:40

I also am an adoptive parent. I have never been so thoroughly interrogated in my life as and during that process.

Parents, Systems, And Regulation

Maria 16:51

So, for you who are listening out there, we have two experts here who will tell you it's not for the faint of heart because it's very invasive the questions and the interviews that they do to make sure that you are of good character to trust you with this child. Yes, even when you and when you're adopting this child, you know don't always have accurate information about the child or the family origin of the child, or any, if anything, or any medical background, or like we can keep adding these layers, these stressors for for but when the parent is in the process of what they're thinking is the love that they want to share, the family that they want to form, right? So there is this attachment like, can I share this love with you? Can I share all of me with you? And in that, there's a lot of grief for the child of I was not good enough or not wanted, or whatever other comes along, and then the projections of the fantasy of once I get this child, everything is gonna work out. Yeah, and that's never the case, it's not like that. No, and we have two people who can attestify to that. So I I can see, Dorothy, why you know, as you were seeking, like what am I noticing, what parts will be working for the population that I work with? You know, can I borrow this? So you're borrowing all these puzzle pieces and then putting this together in order to package it in a way that you're humanizing the whole system and giving them a chance of a do-over. I love that term from tennis. Can we go try this in this moment there with regulated? That we are with a professional who's facilitating these activities in order for us to have a do-over and build trust so that our felt sense has this experiential piece so that when we go back home, we can continue trusting what we practice and we can continue doing here in a beautiful world that will work automatically. They keep coming to therapy because we have additional stressors that we have not needed.

Liliana 19:09

Well, I think that that's lovely. And I know, Dorothy, there's another component that you want to share with us, but I I want to say what I'm hearing from you also is the message of it's never too late. Never it's never too late to to do this work, to go back and to not fix but heal, heal those core attachment disruptions.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

And it's possible. The the outstanding thing to me though is with children who particularly children who have been adopted, where they're they're birth family, they didn't know how to attach securely because they had not a care caregiver who was able to facilitate that. So they don't know what to do. That's why they act out. I know with my daughter, she was six when I adopted her from a Russian orphanage. So we had no common language. We're I'm Armenian, so I wanted to adopt an Armenian child. So we looked alike, and we do. So that helped her a lot, but she was relinquished at birth. So she had no clue what a mother is and what a mother is supposed to do. So the only way she can keep that, as you said, Millianne, that felt sense of connection was to be crazy because I had to pay attention to her. So that is what I loved about nurtured heart and why I brought it on board, is it helps change that dynamic faster so that we can do more appropriate, let me take care of you things.

Liliana 20:42

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Then the other part is as I said, it's a progressive process. After the games are done, it doesn't take the full 45 to 57 minutes, depending on what code you're using. Is then we go into the play therapy room, which is right back here, and then I stay here with the door open and I let the parent and Child go play. And that is where, as you probably have guessed, that's where the trauma is going to come up. And then I let the parent do what she or he needs to do. And if there's something else I feel the parent needs to do, I'll go in and just whisper, try this. And then yes, there was once it was a mother and daughter. She adopted her girl from the foster care system when the girl was two. So when they were in the play therapy room, nothing really was happening other than you know, typical play. I'm on the main street here. Police went up and down the street. Like it was like you could tell there was a big emergency. She leapt into her mother's arms and just nestled right in her. That's exactly what she was supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Not right in the corner.

unknown 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

I didn't have to coach that because we were doing the attachment games and she was starting to feel that this is what safety feels like. And when she felt threatened, because she was raised in the drug house, so that made perfect sense. That that's what she did. So that's the beauty of core attachment therapy. It teaches the child, what am I supposed to do now in a safe relationship? I go to my parents.

Liliana 22:32

I love that. Well, and the invitation to for the for the family system to play together, right? I think that's another outlier, even in the play therapy field. Play therapy happens with a child and the therapist in the playroom. And I I, for one, scream for the rooftops that play is for all ages. It is not just for children, it is healing for all ages, and it is healing for the whole system. And many parents struggle with playing. Right. And that brings up their own stuff. And right. And I think that that play can be such a great assessment, but it's also just so healing for you to offer them time with a coach, with a witness to play together and to heal together. I think that that's just wonderful. And then you get to see the work in action, right? That example of like, you know, child felt threatened and immediately turned for safety, where previously that wouldn't have been her response, right? I suggest that it would have been an escalation in behaviors, right? Or running away. Yes. Right. Would have been another.

Maria 23:35

I love that you two mention this, right? Which is unfortunately, we have an association who has pushed that play therapy is only for children three to twelve. When in reality, we have a whole new generation saying, nay, nay, we're gonna play until we want to. And they're the drivers of technology play. Yeah, right. Because they come from a generation that were like it's safer if you're home versus if you're outside. So, like start thinking about that generation. It's not that they want to be inside just playing. But I love that you two are proponing not only family play therapy, but how do we allow space? I hate the word allowed, but how do we offer space so the families have opportunities to come and have a different experience? Because the reality is that when they're at home, we adults are so good about forgetting about play. And we go into, well, someone has to cook, someone has to do laundry, someone has to pay bills, someone has to go to work, someone has to like array. We go to task-oriented with something that we consume as children, which is when you're a child, you play, when you're an adult, this is what you do. So allowing them to have or offering this experience to go back to that core attachment. It's a beautiful experience, right? It's a beautiful do-over that you are offering. We're talking about adoption, but actually to any family who goes to any milestones where there's disruptions with this, which can we also normalize it? That we all go through it because as parents, we do not approve our child's choices and behavior.

Focusing On What’s Going Right

Liliana 25:25

Well, there's so much, there's so much happening that even with the parents with the best of intentions and all the resources or whatever, there's still disruptions that happen because of the world that we're living in right now. I think it's just such a beautiful offering to one normalize that attachment disruptions happen all of the time. Yes. It's something that we can always go back to and heal. And you know, it's never, it's never too late. And I'm wondering, you know, Dorothy, I I have an assumption, but I'm wondering in in doing some of this initial work, are parents often discovering that they have their own attachment disruptions that they were maybe unaware of until this process and working with you.

unknown 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

I do address that with them just to be sure that because once we get started, I don't want it to stop because it's going to feel like abandonment all over again. So I am very cautious about when we start. And that's one of the things. Did you have attachment development disruption? Yeah. Oh, yes. How did you take care of that? I haven't. Well then go.

Liliana 26:49

Go do that and then come back. Don't do that word first. Well, I love that because it is so important. I you know, I I do consultation all the time where you know, we'll finally get someone who's like, okay, I've invited the parents in to do play with the child so that we can look at it. And then mom like loses it and can't keep it together and her own stuff is bubbling up. So it's like, yes, yes, because play is not superficial. Play, play is attachment, it's relational, right? Even solitary play is relational when it's done in the even in just being viewed by someone else. And I love that you're offering that to the whole family system in such a kind and safe way. Yeah, it's no wonder that it's it's worked as well as it has for you. I think that that's just such a wonderful offering.

Maria 27:40

And and can we also name because I'm like culturally, yes, play is universal, but not all cultures welcome play. A lot of cultures have different priorities and values, yes, where play actually it's it's not allowed because we have different priorities from studying to extracurricular, like it's not the play that Western lens has. So even when you said, like, oh, I adopted this child from and they never you know have this experience, I was like, chaos was familiar because unfortunately that was the the only template given to this child. So it's not that it it's it's that like I need to create this chaos for my nervous system to know how to operate. Um I do not know how to do any other template, right? Um so even when I love that you name that because when supervised is not come and say, like, I invited any blah blah, like what prep work that we did in order to help the caretaker being able to be in this room. All parents have attachment injuries. We all do. Are they aware of their attachment injuries? Do they have words for it? Is there shame tied to that? Because as adults now we're like our parents did the best that they could with what they have. We're really good, we adapted that language. But the reality is that we we say that externally, but we may not be aware of what we have repressed, right? So of course it's gonna show up in the playground. So anytime that we do attachment work, I love that you're saying that we have to be awareness of the caretaker in regards to what are their attachment injuries, what is it that they want to, what is the fantasy that they have, either about the child behavior without understanding child development, what are the projections that there are given to this child, and what are the projections that they're adapting from society, family culture, like it's all these layers that come in in place. So there's like a lot of work that you do, Dorothy, that not everyone wants to do, because if you are a play therapist, we are told that the magic happens in a room between the attachment of a therapist and a child, and it's only for kids who are three to twelve. And there's no research, because why will we when we've been selling you this idea? But even other models, by the way, because no model association is perfect, and I've been sharing that because there are also humans who are creating these ideas, but even EFFT, which I have challenged, and they do family therapy, they do it with teenagers and up. So therefore, plate therapy, it's not taught in this model because for them is can we talk about it?

Liliana 30:47

Yeah.

Safety, Play, And Real-Life Examples

Maria 30:48

And I'm like, if we have disorganized attachment, if we have trauma, if we have this, it may not be organized enough to talk about it. So I will tell you what you want to hear because I come from systems where I learn how to survive. So if I'm not aware of do I really have the tools to help this family? I don't care how mature the child, I'm so tired of hearing, but the child is so mature. Like, I don't care. Or I don't care if it's an adult, whatever they got stuck. Like, what are the tools that you have in order to come and help them through this lens of attachment in order for them to understand where was the injury? What is it that I'm seeking and I have no words? And what and how can I make meaning of my behaviors and what I'm projecting or doing? Because that's the template that I learned. So there's a lot of things that as a community we can learn to work with this population. And I am so happy that you are doing this work and talking about it. So, Dorothy, is that something that you offer consultation? So the therapists who are listening to us, they can go and ask you questions.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

That's an excellent segue. I can tell you've done this before. There is an APT approved provider. I have developed a certification process for core attachment therapy. And it is, and I also developed a level one training for it. Because I thought, well, why would anyone be certified in it? They don't know what it is. So that's when I developed level one training. And what the level one training is, is a two-day, six-hour each day training. The first day is training everybody in the nurtured heart approach because that's the foundation of how we interact with our children to build that inner wealth. Because when we feel better about who we are, we make better behavioral choices. That is my tagline in nurtured heart approach. Then component two is the second day, and I introduce the overall process of the attachment games. Then, if people are interested in that and want to learn more, and then I have the certification program. And that is again a two-day, not a two-day process, though. For those who didn't go through Nurtured Heart and just want to jump right into the certification program, the first day is a virtual training of Nurtured Heart Approach. And then the rest of it is self-based modules for each of the games. There are nine games in the process. So the certification program really is for seasoned therapists because you need to have a client that has attachment needs. And you're going to actually do the games, you're going to learn the process by using it with a client that you have. And after each week, you do the game, we meet virtually, review what the review what you found in your client. We do some educational work around trauma, around child development, around family development. And then at the end of that, you get a certificate of completion. And if you want to become a certified practitioner, you do the same process with just one more client. So that's it. That's it. The second one is intense, but you're going to leave really knowing core attachment through and through. And then for those of you who are listening, I am offering a discount. Let me see what I have here.$100 off each of the training.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Do they need to have a code or something for these? It is, yeah. The promo code is I know it's Heroes.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Heroes, it's Heroes 2026. Love that. I love it. So what happens with Heroes 2026 is that you have to use it by a certain date. I put down the end of January, not realizing when this is going to be. So I'll change that. It'll be the end of February. Do you know when it's coming out in February? The second week of February. Okay, let's say to the end of March. If you use it by the end of March, then you can register for any any of the trainings through 2026.

Liliana 35:27

Dorothy, what a nice gift. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah. And can I just share that, Dorothy? You and I we met because you attended one of my trainings. Yes. And it was just so, so lovely. And then you caught me a couple of years later and shared the cards that you had created around superpowers and just lovely connections. Yeah, it was just a wonderful like happenstance that we were connected in that way. So it's just lovely to continue to see like your core attachment has just blossomed. And I hope in 2026 that it continues to take off for you and that you don't go and break some other bones. Can 2026 be the year of no broken bones for Dorothy?

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Well, you know what? I've I had a long run, I'm 70 years old, and I've never broken a bone. So I said, okay, I'm gonna do it this time. I understand the Famer is the worst one to break. So there you go.

Liliana 36:26

Dorothy, thank you so much for saying yes and spending some time with us this morning. And uh your generosity about giving a promo code for our listeners is just above and beyond. And it's I mean, I shouldn't expect nothing less from you. You're just such a wonderful, kind-hearted person. Thank you. And you and I went to the same school. We did, we did, yes, yes. I yes, hailed from the University of New Hampshire.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yes, which I found was odd. We were in New Mexico, but I'm still here in New Hampshire. So that's how it started. Couldn't handle the snow. So the the promo code is HEROS2026. Thank you, Dorothy. We will include it.

Maria 37:07

Yeah, we will have it with all your contact information. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Thank you for having sharing your wisdom. You two are delightful and so so knowledgeable and made this such a comfortable experience.

Liliana 37:19

Excellent. Thank you, Dorothy. Well, and until next time, listeners, be well.